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Mentorship, Leadership, and Cultural Growth with Tyng Kam
40 Plays20 days ago
We're back from our summer break! In this episode, we are joined by Tyng Kam, a certified career coach with thousands of hours of coaching experience. Tyng shares insights from what she refers to as a "non-linear" career journey, which spanned multinational corporations, startups, and educational institutions across the U.S., Germany, and Malaysia. Tyng highlights her involvement with the National Association of Asian American Professionals (NAAAP) and the value of mentorship and leadership development. Tune in to learn about the strategies she uses to help Asian professionals overcome cultural challenges and recognize potential in others.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:08
Speaker
Welcome back listeners to another episode of Hidden in Plain Sight, all things Asian in the workplace. I'm one of your co-hosts, Duk. I'm Jenny. And I'm Echo. All right. So ah in this episode, we have another special guest. Let me do a quick intro of her.
00:00:24
Speaker
We have Ting Khan with us. Ting is a certified career coach and an accomplished leader whose careers span multinational corporations, startups, and education institutions across the US, Germany, and Malaysia.
00:00:40
Speaker
She has over 3,000 hours of coaching experience. She has 3,000 hours of coaching experience. She's helped emerging professionals navigate their careers with clarity, confidence, and purpose.
00:00:52
Speaker
Ting also serves on the board of the National Association for Asian American Professionals. and AAP, p the Chicago chapter, where she leads initiatives to empower the AAPI community.
00:01:05
Speaker
Let's give Ting a warm welcome. Yeah, welcome to the podcast, Ting. Ting, welcome to the podcast. Is there anything else you'd like to let us know about you?
Ting's Career Path and NAAAP Involvement
00:01:17
Speaker
um Well, thank you for a great introduction, Doug and Jenny and Echo. Very happy to be here. i think you're pretty much like cover kind of most of my background and maybe what I'll add is, you know, one thing I like to tell people is that my career journey has been anything but linear. You know, I have shifted from a lot of different industry, lot of different countries and have shifted in a lot of different functional roles in my career, you know, from consumer goods industry to starting my own business, international education, and now career coaching.
00:01:54
Speaker
But you know I think it was to sort of like this journey of this zigzag in my personal life and career have given me me a lot of perspective where today I can sort of like apply and have a lot of empathy when I work with people going through major transitions and big challenges in life that I can relate to them and share some very practical insights to support them in that journey.
00:02:21
Speaker
Wonderful. I want to add that I met Ting through NAP, which stands for the National Association of Asian American Professionals. I met her through with the Chicago chapter. where i joined last year as a member, and I wanted to be a mentee for change because in my role as a professor, I'm always the advisor, the mentor.
00:02:41
Speaker
And so I wanted to be a mentee for a change. And so I joined the mentorship program and I got paired with Ting. I chose her. She was my first choice. That's how we got connected. And it sort of evolved into this peer mentoring process.
00:02:56
Speaker
She eventually recruited me to join NAPF on the other side. I really like what you said about the empathetic leader because I think that's what drew me to you, like not just your experience, but someone who I can relate to.
00:03:10
Speaker
And um I think that's something that we haven't really explored in our podcast, which which is like what it means to be a leader in the space as, you know, like an Asian woman, as a Malaysian woman.
00:03:21
Speaker
So hopefully maybe we can talk a little bit about those things. But but where should we start?
00:03:29
Speaker
No, it has been a mutually, um I would say that the the experience is mutual. was pretty excited to, you know, get connected with Jenny, i'll learn about her experience and immediately, you know, with my passion and work at NAB, like, you know, what we do is is create leaders, right? And in doing that, we have to keep recruiting people to join us in this journey. And when I met with Jenny, I'm like, oh,
00:03:55
Speaker
She should be in our team.
00:03:58
Speaker
Ting, thank you, first of all, for coming and joining us and sharing your experience. I'd be curious, like, what brought you to na and where do you start your leadership journey with NAP there?
00:04:13
Speaker
and so So, ah you know, in in all honesty, i joined NAP when I was doing a business development role where I have to be a strategic partnership with ah university and business organization because I'm opening up like opportunity for college students and be able to place them into internship or entry level position after college.
00:04:37
Speaker
So in my role, then i has to I have the budget to say, hey, go make connections. right So naturally being an Asian professionals in America, i look to my community, to the people that I can relate to immediately. I'm like, who, who is out there?
00:04:52
Speaker
And I found them. Right. So I join, i participate, I get involved with the events. And then it was through that, that I found my people, you know, I'm like, Oh wait, like, this is my, my people, right. For the first time, like,
00:05:09
Speaker
you don't have to explain yourself why you love rice and noodles. and you know Like, it was just like, yeah, yeah. Like, why do you have to defend yourself? no we all love that.
00:05:21
Speaker
And then you realize that there's a lot of these sheer experience. It helps to normalize my professional and personal journey. And I have stayed with NAPS since I joined in 2014. So it has been over 10 years.
00:05:36
Speaker
And I realized quite early on in my career is when you join a professional organizations, you get involved because this is how you get the most out of your membership. Right. So I volunteer right away.
00:05:49
Speaker
And because of my interest and background in this professional development areas, I naturally joined the professional development committees and help creating programs.
00:06:02
Speaker
And a little over a year ago, i joined the board in the Chicago chapter. Tien, can we just back up just a little bit?
Cultural Integration and Adaptation
00:06:10
Speaker
Sure. Because you had ah experiences in, you know, of course, the US, Germany and Malaysia. Could you talk about your background, how your experiences in those different countries have brought you to where you are today?
00:06:25
Speaker
It's many years of reflections.
00:06:29
Speaker
So um I kind of think it's interesting in the way that a lot of things that happen in my early lives and growing up, ah you know, growing up in Malaysia and started my early career career in Malaysia, those kind of exposure.
00:06:46
Speaker
I didn't really realize what it gave me and built by how it built me until now that I reflect back to why, you know, how I became who I am and why I behave in certain ways.
00:06:59
Speaker
So the first big change and really, really big change in my life would be ah moving to America and learning to integrate. Right.
00:07:10
Speaker
And, you know, I started in grad school and I realized I'm constantly in L because, and I talked to people and I realized that everyone seems to have exceptional skills, like um impressive achievements and those, um,
00:07:29
Speaker
like far more exciting lives than i have. And I, you know, you constantly talk to people and I thought I had a pretty exciting life myself. and And then I'm like, it cannot be, right?
00:07:42
Speaker
And then eventually you realize, you've learned that in America, everything, everyone loves to fluff things up. And it it is so challenging for me because, you know, i was sort of like the people that I considered to have you know pretty good confidence growing up.
00:08:01
Speaker
And I was told to like, hey you know don't brag about yourself too much. lie Be a little bit modest. Otherwise, you don't fit into the culture that way. I grew up in Malaysia, right? So I have to learn to tame it down.
00:08:14
Speaker
But now I came to America, I'm like, oh, no, i have to unlearn all this thing that sort of like restrict myself. That is kind of when I learned to, okay, I need to know how to brag.
00:08:26
Speaker
yeah to just be competitive it's not even just to stand out but just to be competitive um but in along that journey to think about how I can do it yeah I come to realize that I have to be true to myself I have to be grounded to sort of like what works for me otherwise you you don't sound very convincing right you just kind of like talking big when I'm back on my head I'll be like wait a minute that sounds horrible like you don't even sound convincing yourself
00:08:59
Speaker
its so kind of like find this balance to say okay what works for me who I am and what I'm really good at what is important to me what should other people know about me and the other thing now that I reflect back to like A lot of people say, you know, i I integrate very well, whether I move to the US or in Germany. Like I have colleagues here that one point called me like, Tim, you are like vanilla.
00:09:26
Speaker
Like you blend in pretty quickly. Yeah. to quick money And when I think of like, hey, where did I pick up that skills? And i i I have to credit it back to like growing up in Malaysia. It's a very multicultural, multilingual environment. You sort of by ah interact with different groups, you interact a lot of times in different languages.
00:09:53
Speaker
You pick up different cues and different norms. So quite early on in life, I pick up to, I learned how to, you know, get into a room, read the room, and then be able to shift gears, you know, easily without losing myself.
00:10:10
Speaker
um So that has given me the essential skills I need as I navigate this new environment, new culture, workplace. And yeah, it it it becomes a survival instinct that I have.
00:10:33
Speaker
That's quite a bit of code switching that you have to do from different languages and reading the culture of of the room as well, too, to to either brag outwardly or just to make sure that you ground yourself. That's amazing.
00:10:47
Speaker
I think maybe there is some kind of like muscle that has been stimulated in mine in my head. Can I put you on the spot ah for a little bit? What's your go-to brag then?
00:10:59
Speaker
um Well, it depends, right? So what I learned about you know bragging is the first thing about communication is it's about who you're talking to. It's not about you. It's about what your audience is interested to learn about you, what is going to help them to connect and grab it to you right away.
00:11:20
Speaker
So if I want to grab your attention in like 10 seconds ah in a Zoom meeting, my go-to would be, Ting. I have worked and lived in three different continents, Asia, or Europe, and North America, and I speak five and a half languages.
00:11:39
Speaker
Wow. so now we have to ask, what are the five languages? Yeah. So English, absolutely definitely. Malay, which is the national language in Malaysia.
00:11:51
Speaker
And then I speak three different Chinese languages, so Mandarin, Cantonese, and Hokkien. Wow. Sprechen Sie Deutsch? oh Ein bisschen Deutsch. Natürlich.
00:12:06
Speaker
And that is the half, right? and But the reality is, meine Deutsch ist nicht so gut. So my my German is not good. It's terrible. It's about probably 10%, but I say five and a half just to get attention.
00:12:25
Speaker
Oh, my gosh.
00:12:29
Speaker
Tin, as a Chinese person myself, I actually have not heard the third language that you mentioned in the Chinese category. Well, that is that is something I need to catch up with for sure.
00:12:43
Speaker
Thank you. Well, so I know that this story sells in the American setting because a lot of people that I interact with speaks one language, right? English, right?
00:12:55
Speaker
um But it's actually, it's so common in Malaysia. Everyone speaks at least three languages, right? So so it's so common, but I came to this space and I read my audience and I'm like, ooh, this is going to get attention.
00:13:12
Speaker
o ah Going back to what you said earlier on about um how do I present myself? How do I, you know, brag in this space? You know, one thing that Doug, Echo and I have sort of talked about on and off is how...
00:13:25
Speaker
Sometimes it feels unnatural to brag, especially given our Asian
Self-Promotion and Cultural Challenges
00:13:31
Speaker
values. like you Even if you're born and raised in the US, I think you still have like Asian values, which is like, don't brag, you know, let your work speak for itself.
00:13:41
Speaker
I'm wondering, um and does that ever come up for you? And if so, like how how might someone like our listeners listening to this who may have trouble really bragging about their accomplishments at work? What's something that they could do to get more used to that?
00:13:56
Speaker
So I think...
00:14:00
Speaker
In um sort of like human behavior, a lot of times when you think it's uncomfortable and unconvincing, oftentimes it's not the person who hear you and receiving it that is uncomfortable.
00:14:14
Speaker
It starts with, I don't believe in myself. I feel uncomfortable. And therefore then people sort of like, ah you know, receiving that energy from me and then they don't feel convinced or, you know,
00:14:28
Speaker
like all comfortable with that. And kind of going back to what I said earlier, you know, when I first learned to integrate and then I turned like, oh, I'm going to have to fluff things up as well. So I'm just going in and do it. And you're in a business school, everyone brags, right? um So I started doing it. And at that time, you know, i'm I'm still sort of like learning the culture, right?
00:14:53
Speaker
So even the way I talk about myself is very different here in the context of American environment to how I talk about myself in Malaysia. um So, I mean, i have a lot of embarrassing moments that I'm trying to brag and then in the back of my head, that little self-talk in there, we're like, oh my God, like you sound horrible.
00:15:14
Speaker
ah You're not even convinced yourself. And so anybody, if you're trying to learn to do that, It takes time to sort of like master that skills. You just have to keep doing it until you become good at it.
00:15:29
Speaker
But going back to your question, Jenny, um I do think ah in my journey, what I think was helpful is that this is to this is the first time you're doing it, right? You have to actually sit down.
00:15:43
Speaker
and write down all your story, right? What are your accomplishments? What are the things that you're really proud of by yourself? Everything, doesn't matter what it is.
00:15:53
Speaker
Is it professional or is it personal? And you write it down. You have to have that story. So I was very lucky. I was introduced to a book called brag by Peggy Claus is a very small little book.
00:16:09
Speaker
It taught you about how to brag, you know, without, I can't remember what's the full name of it, but you know, you search Peggy Claus, brag, you'll find that book. But basically it taught me to say, you need to create your brag bag.
00:16:24
Speaker
So it's a bag of your stories that you can brag at any time. And then anytime you came across a situation, ah you know, knowing who the audience you're talking to, then you're going to have a story that you can pull out from your brag bag, talk about it So, um so that preparation sort of like helped me and with years of practice. So now I have a lot of story in my head that I can just bring up and brag about it. so The fundamental rule for me is that you have to believe in that story yourself. Right? So you feel like, no, like I'm really good at it. This is what my accomplishment is. And that I bring value in this area. Then you yourself have to believe in that.
00:17:11
Speaker
And then once you believe in that, it doesn't matter what, I mean, the reality is like, it doesn't matter what other people think of you too, right? Because this is a credit that you give to yourself.
00:17:22
Speaker
And then the other rule that I have is when it comes to bragging, if if that achievement is mine, I make all the 100% contribution to that achievement, I'm going to claim it. Right?
00:17:37
Speaker
A simple thing as I try a new menu and I create a menu and I cook it myself. And at dinner table, I tasted it. And I'm like, this is good. This is delicious. And I'm like, I'm a real really good cook. lime I'm awesome.
00:17:55
Speaker
Right? Claim it. Right? But if it's a collaborative environment, there are people involved in making this a success. Then, you know, if people say, Ting, thank you for your... contributions And I'm going to accept that, say, thank you. You know, like, you know, thank you. Like i I recognize that yes, this is a great achievement, but also giving space to recognize others who help you to get to this place as well. So yes, it's a great achievement, I didn't come here alone.
00:18:29
Speaker
i have helped. And these are the people that have helped to make this happen. Great balance too. I really love this example and I think what's resonating with me, Ting, is several months ago we talked about, or you know, Dirk, Echo and I, we talked about how difficult it is sometimes to own your accomplishments.
00:18:50
Speaker
So for example, for me, when someone goes, hey Jenny, fantastic job, my first reaction is always, oh no, it wasn't me, it was it was a team. it was the team Even though like I was primarily the one responsible for getting that done, I have a really hard time just owning it and accepting the compliment.
00:19:10
Speaker
So I really appreciate what you said about you know striking that balance. you know Sure, sure. And I credit this to my father. um So my friends all call me the, you know, the master of self-praising. Like, you know me long enough, you know, i I'm very good at praising myself, ah especially in a personal setting.
00:19:32
Speaker
um And all the time I do it in a with humor, right? But then I'll tell my friends, like, well, just remember who I was raised with. You know, I was raised by the master of masters, self-praiser. Like my dad, when I say, hey, I've done, I've told him like, oh, I've done this really well recently. And he's like, awesome.
00:19:55
Speaker
Well, you know why? Because you are my daughter. i love it. That's a cool dad.
00:20:08
Speaker
I'm wondering in those balancing tactics that you have mentioned earlier, and also in the moment where you're bragging, are there any moments that you feel like, Daniel, I wish I didn't done that because that actually backlash a little bit.
00:20:26
Speaker
Were there moments like that? um I mean, I'm sure like, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of like very embarrassing moment where I talk loud about myself and then I'm I regret it by so many times, um but I don't remember. i cannot give you you know an exact moment. And maybe that is the special skills that I have is I don't try to remember embarrassing moments. I move on.
00:20:55
Speaker
I like it. You mean like we all have those experiences, right? You you you sort of like ah got caught up in a situation and you reacted in a way that or you didn't know how to react and you kept silent or you reacted in the way that you later sort of regretted it.
00:21:15
Speaker
And then it's spinning your head to like, oh, Like, ah I should have done this. Like, what should I have done? How would I react at the next time? And it stay in your head for a while until you kind of like, all right, you know what? That's enough.
00:21:32
Speaker
This is what I learned. And that repetition in your head essentially stuck, you know, drafting your speech or your how you want to say and how you want to react the next time it happens again.
00:21:44
Speaker
One of the reasons I was asking that backlash moment is because there was a expectation that going around that, oh, Asians shouldn't brag themselves, they should stay humble.
00:21:55
Speaker
So that's the reason why. But it sounds like from your experience, even though there are moments of doubts, but it doesn't necessarily lead to do any of a backlash or penalties for it for it. So maybe that's an encouragement for our audience.
00:22:08
Speaker
It's not that bad. It's not as bad as you think. So go for it. Yes, go for it. So, mean, Ting, you've done a lot of you said you've done like, what was it, 3000 hours of coaching um and you've been involved in the career pathing and just developing, you know, new talent or people who are going into the profession.
00:22:29
Speaker
What would you say are some patterns that you notice with like Asian professionals like in terms of like how we present ourselves? What are some challenges, like unique challenges that you see Asian and Asian American professionals have to navigate? um Maybe one thing... um I would say I'm drawing a blank to what is the right phrase to phrase it.
00:22:56
Speaker
um But I'm sure we all can relate to this is sort of like these Asian culture tend to be like, um it's it's a little bit more negative reinforcement to say, hey, like you've done this, but your parents tend to tell you like, okay, this is good.
00:23:14
Speaker
but you're not like you're 90 percentile, you still have that 10% to get to 100. You know, right? So it's like, why is it not why is that a a B plus and not an A, right? Or a B plus is good,
00:23:32
Speaker
but there's a there's always this higher thing, right? So we we are always more kind of like, there's always like, you're almost saying you're never enough, right? you You keep having to go more and more and more. and um Whereas in the more ah Western value, ah particularly, I would say in the more general American ah culture attitude has been like, you know, like you are awesome.
00:24:02
Speaker
You know, like, ah you're awesome. Like you're already awesome. Like you just have to keep doing it. So I don't think either way is the better way.
00:24:13
Speaker
ah You know, it's about finding that balance, right? Like for people who say you're not never enough is to be able to say, no, I'm good. right? i'm I'm very good right now, but there's always room for being better, right?
00:24:31
Speaker
And giving yourself that credit to sort of like, going back to what I say, like like, like claim that credit, like give o ourselves that credit to say, done a good job, like, you know, like celebrate And also I think with Asian, we we don't,
00:24:50
Speaker
celebrate success as much as what I've seen yeah you know in in other cultures. Yeah, well that tracks, definitely. Right. right yeah Oftentimes celebration has to happen when it's like a huge achievement.
00:25:05
Speaker
So, you know, and the other part is, and when you keep celebrating small successes along the way, it developed that ah that confidence, you know, um that I think also is very helpful in the other spectrum.
00:25:20
Speaker
But overdoing the, don say like, if you always think you're perfect and you're always good is also too arrogant to to have room for improvement, right? So I think that makes America sort of like a very interesting place for me from this sort of like exposure and opportunity to learn from the different culture and then figure out, like, what is the best formula for you?
00:25:47
Speaker
right Because boy we we also have this tendency to be in the spotlight. I don't want all the attention. you know i just want to do the work. is we We felt uncomfortable to be in the
Cultural Stereotypes and Learning from Others
00:26:01
Speaker
spotlight. right um so So I get really excited. I'm drawn to all these comedians that break that stereotype. Like Ali Wong is on my favorite AAPI celebrity.
00:26:15
Speaker
Like she breaks all the stereotypes, right? And I'm like like, hey, we can't be like this. Yeah, absolutely. That's true. Yeah, there's a lot of us.
00:26:26
Speaker
Oh, we are. you know, we are like this. It's just you don't know one of them. And then there's also Ronnie Chang, who's a Malaysian-Australian comedian. I love him too. Yeah, like Asian can be super mean and sarcastic. Yeah.
00:26:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:45
Speaker
Oh, you know, if I, if my, I might add is, so this is like one of my light bulb moment, uh, in my journey to integrate in the U S is that one day i you know, I just, so part of the way I learned is I talk to people. Right.
00:27:01
Speaker
And, um and why I love coaching because like you pretty much is paid to learn from others from their stories. Right. So, uh, one day I was just having this conversation and someone told me like, you know, in America,
00:27:16
Speaker
um you you don't ask permission. You apologize. so So if you go to a room where there is like, say, assigned seats, well, go take the seat. If you want to sit in the second row of the room, just go sit there until somebody tell you, these are reserved for other people. Like you're not supposed sit here.
00:27:41
Speaker
And then you're like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that. And then you move. So any room you go into, you know, just go in until somebody say, hey, you're not supposed to be here. Oh, I'm so sorry.
00:27:54
Speaker
Instead of waiting outside the room and ask for permissions to go in. Yeah. And when I heard that there's a light bulb moment going on in my head, I'm like, wait a minute.
00:28:05
Speaker
I don't need to ask for permissions to be there. Now that's a game changer for me. I feel like that's my night ball moment as I was listening to you because I was reflecting my own actions and behaviors. And there's so many times I'm like, maybe I shouldn't do that because that I already boxed myself into a place that that place is not belonging to me.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Ting, could you talk about how you practice that once that light bulb went off for you? like How did you just take control and say, you know, I'm going to stop asking for permission. I'm just going to go, not what I want to do, but just go for for it.
00:28:44
Speaker
And if people tell me I can't, so be it. like How did you practice that? Or how did you subtly go into doing all those little things? um Well, I mean, the reality is I didn't become just like from asking for permission and just bulldozing my way everywhere too um a go through.
00:29:07
Speaker
It's going to be a period of very uncomfortable situations. You know, like I have to like force myself to like, you know, it's is this conscious this conscious decision to say i'm I'm in a situation and then my autopilot will say, oh, stay and ask for permission. And then the other voice will come up and like, no, you don't ask for permission.
00:29:27
Speaker
So you you have this conflict conflicting conversation going on in your head and then you're like, I know you got to do it. Like you're going to have to like just embrace this. And then I push myself to be in a very uncomfortable situations and I'm scared.
00:29:41
Speaker
I feel very vulnerable and I'm like, oh, somebody's gonna yell at me and I'm gonna be super embarrassed. And then I'm like, what's the worst thing that could happen to you? You're never gonna have see these people ever again.
00:29:54
Speaker
Okay, then I'm gonna do it. Yeah.
00:30:07
Speaker
i I love that mentality. I'd say there's a there's ah one specific moment, one that I thought I kept on playing back in my life that I'm like, I should asked a question when people weren't asking questions. I just missed out on the opportunity and I still regret it till this day.
00:30:27
Speaker
And I play it back in my head and I tell myself, If only you asked a question, you wouldn't be thinking about it all this time. And every time I think that I'm too, or I think that I'm scared about asking a question, I think about that moment again.
00:30:39
Speaker
If I miss out, I'll never get a chance to go back. And it makes myself so, I get so mad at myself for doing that. But also trying to learn to forgive myself as well too, or for missing that moment, yeah.
00:30:51
Speaker
Right. Oh, yes. Like, you know, I'm sure all of us have the experience. You sit in the big room and a big meeting and there is some like your, you know, M plus two, like your boss, boss and your boss, boss, boss sitting there.
00:31:05
Speaker
then they're talking about things and then you're like, I really don't quite understand these specific terminology that they use or that I have this very simple questions. And then you're all like,
00:31:19
Speaker
wait, like, should I ask that questions? I'm nobody here. What if they all think not I'm stupid? and And then you ask that questions, you know, especially like when you're new in a company, everybody start using acronyms.
00:31:36
Speaker
And then you're like, what is this USC? And everybody's like, USC, USC. And then I'm like, i'm I'm sorry, everyone. Like, um can I ask what does that means?
00:31:47
Speaker
And then you get this like DM from other people, like, thank you for asking that question. a wow So I kind of feel like to some extent, I am learning to be more and more comfortable to say, i don't know all the questions. And when I don't know, like, i can clarify it.
00:32:09
Speaker
But, you know, of course, you you have to find a balance to to say, like, you know, you you don't want to look stupid, um but also, you know, don't be afraid to ask questions when you feel like there's a need to clarify it as well.
Leadership and Mentoring Approaches
00:32:26
Speaker
This is such good advice, Ting. And I, you know, so one of the things that we talk about on the podcast is how sometimes a lot of these leadership development programs, even the ones for or meant for Asian Americans, sometimes feel very generic. But I really like the topics that we're talking about today and how they are specific to Asian American professionals.
00:32:48
Speaker
I mean, absolutely. I mean, this is what we do at NAP, right? In NAP, like our commitment is to build leaders, you know, in every stages and in our lives, right? and And one thing that I've also learned in sort of like finding that balance to like, you know, what is my identity as an immigrant, an Asian, a woman and a leader, right?
00:33:15
Speaker
you You get this, a lot of these images of like leaders here are people who are loud, who are getting attention, who is flashy, you know, like that is a leader.
00:33:29
Speaker
For me, it's also, reinterpret what leader, being a leader means for me, right? For me, being a leader means that I show up for my team.
00:33:42
Speaker
I am there be open to listen and to be open to find solutions together with them, like, I don't always have the answers, but I always know that I have the ability to find a solution.
00:33:59
Speaker
Right. So even when I don't know, I can be open to let my team knows that now I don't know what the answer is for now, but here's the things that I'm going to do to find a possible solutions.
00:34:13
Speaker
And a being a leader is also ah being there that when you see someone who has a potential in them, that maybe they don't even see it themselves yet.
00:34:25
Speaker
And you start creating the platform and opportunities for them to discover and start, you know, emerging as a leader. So it can be the quiet type. And that is a form of leadership as well.
00:34:39
Speaker
and can you talk about how others recognize that in you and how you potentially recognize that in others that there's a potential for leadership, but sometimes the person doesn't know it yet, but you know, through development and coaching that they can get to a certain level.
00:34:54
Speaker
what What cues do you take? How do you go about recognizing leadership and how did others recognize your leadership when you were coming up? This gives me a lot of reflections into when you're coaching with very young people. So I've coached graduate students with like 15 years of working experience, 20 years of working experience to coaching high school students who are 16, 17. Right. And, you know, what I've learned when working with really young people, and I think it's ah applicable to very experienced people as well, is a lot of time.
00:35:32
Speaker
your job as a mentor and as a coach is to give permissions to people to do what they already have. yeah You know, like they're like, Oh, I'm thinking about this. I'm not too sure. And you say, that's a great idea.
00:35:47
Speaker
you should go do it. So, and then for me, leaders doesn't always means that you have to lead a team. It can be that you lead an initiatives, right?
00:35:59
Speaker
So whenever people show like, oh, I'm somewhat interested in this, then I'll encourage them to say, hey, you want to get involved? Right.
00:36:09
Speaker
So so similar like in NAP, right? This is kind of how we build our work ah we call out. So in NAP, we have a lot of volunteers. We bring them in and then we use our different program committee as leadership development labs.
00:36:26
Speaker
So you come in, here's the platform for you. And we encourage you to to try, you know, to learn new skills, to try new roles, to ah encourage you to just do anything that maybe you have never tried before and a use it as a place to testing it out.
00:36:44
Speaker
Right. So then I've never lead a program. Like, do you want to do it? If you want to do it, you can be a lead and I will support you. So, so sort of like that is kind of like how I think to give people an opportunity and platform.
00:37:00
Speaker
And there are situations in my life, I've, I thought that somebody has it and I was wrong and, you know, and then I encourage it and it stress them out and then I pull back as well. Right.
00:37:12
Speaker
But for me is, um, not always say so really identifying or spotting someone, but also be, it's more about being open-minded to say anyone can lead, right?
00:37:26
Speaker
At what level you lead, it depends on what are your ambition, what are your skills and capabilities. So then you put them in the right place, right? I hope I answered your questions.
00:37:41
Speaker
um Yeah, you did. There's a lot of nuance to it. And it sounds like ah it's a it's a it becomes a conversation of back and forth of seeing where people are and what they want to do and you enabling them, facilitating and pointing them in the right direction is what I'm hearing.
00:37:58
Speaker
h Yeah. And then when when you work with ah in in the work setting, what I've done is also um I always have this mindset to say every job that I go into,
00:38:10
Speaker
i'm going to leave that job in three years because i will be bored if i do the same thing ah three years yes so so if i go into this role i'm going to build the structure the process and i'm going to start building people to take over what i'm doing because if i don't do that i don't get to do other things right um So, and then when I'm sort of like designing that, I will find people within my team to say who will be the person that will be interested in taking that.
00:38:45
Speaker
And I'll have conversation with them. And then if there's a taker, I'll say, all right. And there's a taker who is also has potential, then I'm like, okay, I'm going to mentor you and you're going to it.
00:38:58
Speaker
And for me, like this is the most rewarding part about my career. You know, you can achieve that sales objective, that target and Roman target, then you move on to a new target. But when you build people one by one, that impact lasts forever. That becomes your friends forever.
00:39:21
Speaker
So, so that is also the other way. And I think because I'm interested in people. naturally, you know, you, mut you build that mutual relationship. So people who are interested in the way uh, how to say people who believes like who are interested in the way I like to connect with people will then gravitate to me.
00:39:46
Speaker
So what i realized then, which is something that I try to be a little bit more mindful is I tend to, attract more like female,
00:39:58
Speaker
colleagues in my professional life than male. it's very interesting. Like um when I work in sales, a lot of times your colleagues are all male and your boss always male, right? So I'll be the only woman hanging out in the sales leadership team. you know, I blend well with them, right? But I speak their language, you know, like when you, as a woman, you, when you work with a male,
00:40:25
Speaker
you kind of like speak their language because you're the minority, right? I don't care about sports, frankly, but at least I'll turn on the NPR news in the morning to know how the local baseball team did last night.
00:40:43
Speaker
at least I'll be like, hey, great game last night, right? go I'm just going to call that out. That's just the nerdiest thing ever. To get sports reporting on NPR. Come on. I'm a long-term NPR listener myself, too.
00:40:59
Speaker
You know, it's so. yeah I'll take any tools available to me. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. course that's That's great advice. And I feel like if more leaders were like you, Ting, like dynamic and and always looking for ways to not only grow yourself, but grow others, I feel like we wouldn't have this like leadership crisis and, you know, people who are just like disillusioned with their job.
00:41:25
Speaker
And I mean, I think one of the reasons why I was drawn to you was I think i i saw that and I was like, Ting is someone who's gonna gonna share her insights and I'm gonna learn so much from her.
00:41:36
Speaker
And I think I made the right choice.
00:41:44
Speaker
Absolutely, yeah. We all wish there are more leaders like you, having that mindset, the culture, the the next leader. thank you. That is so kind of you.
00:41:56
Speaker
um With that being said, Ting, I also realized we are probably closing to the end now. Do you have anything else that you wanted to share with our audience, whether about how to overcome those challenges or some of the tips that they can take away?
00:42:14
Speaker
um what I think this journey of moving to a very different culture, a culture that and starting all over again was very challenging.
Personal Challenges and Self-Acceptance
00:42:27
Speaker
It's the hardest thing that I've ever had to do in my life. And I've done that three times, you know, like, you know, move from Malaysia to the u s um starting with zero network.
00:42:42
Speaker
And then from U.S., I moved to Germany and I start all over again, like looking for a job in Germany um and then moving from Germany back to the U.S. And it's very difficult.
00:42:57
Speaker
um You go through a process of self-doubt. it's It's a very uncomfortable feeling when you walk out to a room and everyone just doubting you.
00:43:10
Speaker
Not that people doubt you, but people sort of say, like, who are you? Like, why do you deserve be here kind of thing, right? And you felt like you have to constantly, like, explain about who you are educate people about who you are, prove that you deserve to be here. It's a very intimidating experience.
00:43:31
Speaker
But if I get the chance to choose again, I'll do this again. Because it's that journey of discomfort that put me in a lot of situations where I have to keep reflecting about, do a lot of reflections, right?
00:43:46
Speaker
how Who am i Why am I reacting this situation? You know um so like... realizing who I am. So, so kind of long story short is that my advice is, you know, in this journey, it it comes down to how we feel about ourself, right? That self-awareness, that self-acceptance is the first step to sort of like be very comfortable to sort of like to show up for others.
00:44:16
Speaker
So we have to take care of ourselves first, knowing who we are. And I think once I kind of realized who am I, what is important to me, what am I good at, and I accepted myself, then i can do anything.
00:44:33
Speaker
Right. And then two, um, uh, I, I do think curiosity is a it a very important sort of like, uh, what do you call that? Is that you you guys are the psychologists, like is it a personality traits or behavior?
00:44:50
Speaker
um um Like being curious life is, is very important, right? Things that you don't know, things that I'm scared doesn't mean that it's wrong. Doesn't mean that it's bad. It's just that I don't understand it yet.
00:45:06
Speaker
So anything that I don't understand, I'll give myself at least one chance to, figure to to get some exposure to what that is, you know, other than things that could really harm your body physically.
00:45:21
Speaker
Right. Um, so, so that's my rule in life. Like, um, I, I try to keep a curiosity to learning something new, something different, things that challenge me to what I believe.
00:45:37
Speaker
Um, and then along that journey, once I learned to decide either it's not for me, I don't accept it, or that I accept the existence of it and I still don't quite understand it, but I'm keeping an open mind to, you know, that it's something that I've yet to understand.
00:45:58
Speaker
So what I'm walking away with is be curious, accept yourself, and celebrate the big and small moments. Mm-hmm. Celebrate every moment.
00:46:08
Speaker
yeah Celebrate every moment. and And I'm not saying that this is easy. It's hard. um But the reward is big. Okay, so we usually end our episode with a haiku that we ask ChatGPT to write
Conclusion and Haiku Summary
00:46:24
Speaker
us. Echo is usually the one who gives the prompt.
00:46:27
Speaker
um And the prompt is based on our conversation. So let's let's see, what's our what's our haiku? Winding paths converge, coaching hearts with quiet fire.
00:46:38
Speaker
Each voice finds its place. And that does happen too, right? it sounds like you found your own path in your ah your whole story, your diaspora of from Malaysia to the U.S. to Germany, back to the U.S. And there's so much we actually didn't cover because you actually provided us a lot of this information and we kind of dove into it. I felt like you were able to kind of give us a bit of each one of those so i know you gave us a lot i know we we may have to bring you back for our second episode to talk about coaching and how to go about getting some of these certifications to become a coach well i mean i'm still learning i'm still figuring out jenny and i talked about it recently
00:47:24
Speaker
But well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This is fun, actually. you know, like I would love to learn from all of you. like i share my experience today. i love to learn about your journey. I'm sure that you have some very...
00:47:43
Speaker
ah insightful experience to share. And yeah, thanks for inviting me here, Jenny, and looking forward to stay connected. And and if we build programs, you know, if you guys are interested, you can join up too.
00:48:01
Speaker
know I am going to look it up. I'm sure there's one in New York. Doug, sorry, I cut you off there. Oh, I was just going to say, like, um I think in your ah responses, I think you gave us that that you mentioned there's a lot of a good amount of female leaders, but not as many males.
00:48:21
Speaker
I'm in Dallas now and I probably won't. My mom's in Chicago. I won't make it back to Chicago for a while. But do you guys do remote work as well? Yeah. Yes, we do, but there's a Dallas chapter and it's a pretty big one.
00:48:36
Speaker
New York is a big chapter as well in New York. um You know, we we I would love to have all of you with the Chicago chapter. And if you want to be join our efforts, like please come.
00:48:52
Speaker
um But i don't I also think that you probably could better optimize your engagement with NAP if you join the local chapter as well. So you can do both.
00:49:03
Speaker
like what head There you go, Duck. There you go. you um So thank you so much for joining us, Ting. And thank you to our audience for tuning in. We'll catch you later on our next episode of Hidden in Plain Sight. Bye, everybody.
00:49:20
Speaker
Bye.