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With Rahil Patel
82 Plays3 years ago
The life of a Hindu monk can seem extreme–celibacy, poverty, thousands of miles of pilgrimage–but what are they searching for? Today we hear from a former priest about how Christianity met his heart's desire. He offers some important guidance on how to reach out to others from Eastern religions, when the cultural gap can seem so daunting.
As a Hindu priest Rahil Patel was a renowned international speaker whose spiritual counsel was received by politicians, industrialists and celebrities. His life changed dramatically after encountering the love of Jesus, and he is now involved in ministries at Holy Trinity Brompton, Balham Vineyard Church and the NowBelieve Ministry, a missionary organisation serving in the UK, India and South Africa.
His testimony is available in his book Found By Love: A Hindu priest encounters Jesus.
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Transcript
Episode Introduction
00:00:09
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from the Sola Centre Public Christianity up in Scotland in Dundee, coming to you today from there. And I'm joined as ever by my co-host, Christie Mayer, who's coming to us. Where are you today, Christie?
00:00:28
Speaker
I'm in London. Yeah, in London in my study. So it's great to be with you, Andy. It's always good to have both ends of the country represented, but we also have, well, that's actually not quite the middle of the country, but we have a little bit closer to the middle. I guess today coming to us from Oxford and we're joined today by Raheel Patel. Raheel, welcome to pep talk. Thank you so much, guys, for having me.
Guest Introduction: Raheel Patel
00:00:50
Speaker
It's great to be here.
00:00:51
Speaker
Now your day job, let me get this right. If I get this wrong, feel free to correct me because yours is a slightly unusual job. You are a consultant to the UK and the European parliaments on issues to do with engaging with India. Would that be a good description? That's a good description. Yeah, that's good. I can write your business card. You and I actually met at the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics a year or so ago, didn't you? I actually remember, so you and I have met in person, I recall.
00:01:21
Speaker
Yeah, we met in 2019. You came to teach towards the end of the year in December. So that's great. We met in person and Christy see this, he's still willing to be on the podcast, even in person.
00:01:36
Speaker
Now, I don't want to take up time on the intro because we've got so much to pack into today's show because really, you have this really interesting story, everyone's story of their journey to Christ is interesting. But let's put this where yours is unusual in that you are a Christian now, follower of Jesus, sharing your faith with others and helping others do that. But your background, you weren't just you were a Hindu, but not just any old Hindu. You have very, very deeply
00:02:02
Speaker
into Hinduism. Do you want to tell us a bit about where you came from and then or more excitingly of course how you came from there to where you are now? Sure,
Journey as a Hindu Monk
00:02:11
Speaker
sure. I was a Hindu monk for 20 years. Easier word is a Hindu priest so I was wearing orange robes and a shaven head and I trained to be a priest in India in a monastery for six years from 1991 to 90
00:02:30
Speaker
six, seven. And then I was based in London because I was born in the UK. And my role as a monk was to spread Hinduism across Europe and Russia. So I used to travel across Europe, Russia, around 60 to 90,000 miles a year. And I built temples in France, Belgium, Portugal, developed centers across Scandinavia, Italy.
00:02:56
Speaker
Long story short, I was... I loved the idea of God as a child and that's why I joined. I was really drawn to the Guru. We believed him to be God. But as I ventured deep into the meditations, the rules and the rituals were really strict. We had avowed celibacy. Detachment was very extreme. You weren't allowed to even meet your parents ever again.
00:03:25
Speaker
So very extreme vows. You're not paid. You can't even touch money. If you touch money accidentally, you have to wash your hands 25 times. So very monastic in lifestyle, but the operation behind you from the devotees, the followers was huge financially. So they would do all of the operations for you to go and preach and speak everywhere.
00:03:50
Speaker
So, you know, with all the worship, chanting, meditations, readings, scriptures, I just didn't find what I thought I would find, that sense of, you know, just deep satisfaction in a piece, that sense that I've reached. So I kept just trying different things in and amidst all my work, you know, different techniques of meditation.
00:04:16
Speaker
So that just didn't work.
Conversion to Christianity
00:04:19
Speaker
And so in 2011, after 20 years, I left and I gave up my search for God. I was very disappointed because, goodness, I had even done a 2,000 mile pilgrimage across India.
00:04:33
Speaker
I climbed sacred mountains, you know, some of them three times, you know, swam in the River Ganges, the Yamuna River, fasted five times a month, 36 hours without food and water. I thought they'd just give up.
00:04:51
Speaker
And I was in civilian clothes and walking on my own in central London and I saw this church and I thought, okay, let's have a look at it because I'd seen the churches in Rome with all these beautiful paintings and beautiful pieces of art. It was a Sunday morning and
00:05:08
Speaker
around 1115 and I went down this road where this church was and weirdly there were people at the entrance you know I never saw that in Rome welcoming people in so I just walked past them they were really they had these really big smiles which were quite creepy you know
00:05:28
Speaker
Well, I wasn't used to that kind of love, so I just ignored them. And as soon as I put my foot in the church, the presence of God just fell on me so powerfully. I just felt this incredible peace. And this sense, it wasn't audible, but this sense that someone had said to me, you are now home.
00:05:51
Speaker
And I went upstairs and sat in the pew and I listened to the sermon. I'd never heard worship on guitars and drums. It was really new to me. And that was it. I went back to my hotel where I was staying and I sat on the bed and I gave my life to Christ in an instant.
00:06:11
Speaker
Which for me was fascinating because as a priest it was very difficult to debate with me. They would hold certain board meetings when I would be in Europe in case I disagree because I could turn the course of discussion quite easily. And here nobody preached to me, nobody challenged me but this was a powerful encounter, yeah.
00:06:38
Speaker
Praise the Lord. For 20 years being a Hindu monk, a Hindu priest, and then suddenly just like that giving your life to Jesus, that's huge. How did your fellow monks and priests, how did they receive the news?
Impact of Conversion and Book
00:06:56
Speaker
Well, obviously when I left, because it rocked the boat big time, I had a very senior role in the organization. There were thousands who would listen to me preach. I was reporting to the guru and the head in London, but I had about 1,600 followers under me. So when I left, the condition was that I'm not allowed to speak to anyone ever again in the organization, and none of them are allowed to be in contact with me.
00:07:26
Speaker
But years later, when I wrote a book and I then heard from Viya Viya Viya that people had read my book, priests had read my book, and they found it quite fascinating. These are the words I heard. They found it very interesting.
00:07:45
Speaker
But obviously, they were hurt, they felt rejected, disappointed, I'm guessing. But I have not had a chance to talk to any of them. By the way, for folks who want to get more of a Hills story, your book is found by love, right? Is the book. We'll put links to that in the show notes. So people who've been struck even by that very short summary of a Hills Testament, you can go and read the lengthy version.
Western Interest in Eastern Spirituality
00:08:14
Speaker
So now one of the things that you do is you I know that you as well as you know obviously sharing your faith with with Hindus and with all the way that God's equipped you there you teach and train churches how to do that as as well and there's lots of things I'd love to ask you about that in a short time we have but perhaps a question to get us into that Raheel would be am I right in thinking there does seem to be a growth and an interest in
00:08:37
Speaker
kind of Eastern spirituality here in the West. I mean, not just Hinduism, there are other religions as well, but Hinduism, I seem to meet more people who are into sort of Hinduism in various forms. So is there, am I right in seeing that sort of sense in that grace? What's the interest? What's the draw for Westerners to forms of Eastern spirituality? That's before we think about then how we share Christ with
00:09:03
Speaker
I think that's a great question. I think the draw, one of the entry points is yoga, right? That's an entry point because of the breathing, because of the meditation, because of the exercise itself which has physical benefits. It's a draw, right? The other aspect is that
00:09:24
Speaker
I feel that if Christianity is very linear, if we offer a very linear, bland, boring Christian faith, people get drawn to the East. My experience is that spending time in the presence of God or, you know, enjoying his communion, his joy, his peace, I mean, gosh, you don't need to look East. It's all here.
00:09:53
Speaker
It's all here, it's just that we sometimes just offer an academic angle of Christianity, which is not wrong, it's important. Or we offer an intellectual case of Christianity, which is not wrong, it's important. But we forgot, we forget to, when I first came to the Lord, he said to me, the sole purpose of your life now is to be loved by me.
00:10:20
Speaker
sit with me, be with me, rest in my presence. Because I came from a works-based religion. So I thought, okay, what do I do now for Christ? You know? And he said, no, no, no, do this. And that's, you know, the tangible presence of Jesus Christ is available to everyone. And he doesn't just give you one encounter and say, okay, that's it. I'm closing the door. We have that to offer.
00:10:50
Speaker
You know, we have that to offer. And when you read stories like Peter going to the temple and the guy says, can you just give me some money? And he goes, money I don't have, but what I have, I have a gift to you. So shadows don't heal. Come on, we know that. But whatever was overshadowing Peter, he was able to release.
00:11:13
Speaker
This is a reality that we carry the presence of God wherever we go. And people are designed to be attracted to that. So those are my thoughts. And then third point is celebrity. They get drawn to the East. So that pulls crowds as well. But I think, to sum it up, if we offered more of the...
00:11:40
Speaker
Christian mysticism, it's given this name. I don't know why it's given a sort of side name. It's very central to our walk and what the desert fathers experienced in Christ, what they had there. And I'm not saying it's all about feelings either. It's about communion.
00:12:05
Speaker
You know, we brushed this aside by saying, hey, look, our faith isn't about feelings. It's not just about feelings. No, this is not about feeling. It's about his tangible love, his tangible presence. So I think that's where I feel people go to the East. They are also drawn to this idea where
00:12:30
Speaker
there's no accountability, you know, in many of the Eastern sort of concepts, there's no such, there's not much of a structure that you have to then be accountable to, you know, there might be one guru that you, that he was your mentor, but
00:12:56
Speaker
These are the things I think. I was really struck by what you said that people are designed to be attracted to this, that they're designed to be attracted to the peace and the presence of God himself. How do you hear more about that, Rahil? How do you go about living and sharing Jesus with the Hindu community?
Engaging with Hinduism as a Christian
00:13:23
Speaker
What does that look like?
00:13:26
Speaker
I always, you know, as we all do, just first of all, pray, spend time with God first, you know? Not like that routine thing, but just get into that place with Him first. So that when you're out there with them, you're out of the way and they get to meet Jesus. Does that kind of make sense, you know? So you're not just bringing your own stuff in.
00:13:53
Speaker
And then, you know, when you're engaging with Hindus, it's important not to ask Christian questions. This is what I often see Christians do, and they sort of ask Christian questions like, are you forgiven of your sins? Like, salvation and moksha are two very different things.
00:14:14
Speaker
For a Hindu, Moksha, the liberation of their soul from birth and rebirth is the important thing. And they are on a quest. They apply different methods to ensure that their soul doesn't get reborn into another body. So forgiveness is a concept in that worldview, but it's quite peripheral.
00:14:35
Speaker
You know, there is no translation for sin as such. There's no word for that really. The closest word would be bap. So this is just one example. You know, I was on a mission trip and I was introduced to a Hindu. So I thought, let me give him one of the books. This was through Okha that we were giving free. And I just quickly looked at the title. It was a
00:15:02
Speaker
very good writer, and I looked at the table of contents, and there was one chapter that said, Jesus is the greatest teacher of all who defeated the greatest barrier of all, which is death. This book was designed for to engage with other worldviews. Now, that chapter, that title is irrelevant to a Hindu, to a Sikh, to a Jain, to a Buddhist, because death isn't a big deal.
00:15:31
Speaker
Right? You're preaching to a Christian audience again. Of course it's true. Jesus has defeated the greatest bear, which is death. You and I know that, but that doesn't matter. When I became a believer, I was quite, you know, I found it strange when Christians jumped up and down singing, death is defeated, death is defeated, because we never had a concept. There's no concept of an ending, you know? So I ensure that, you know, I look at,
00:16:01
Speaker
areas of karma and grace. This is where I try and navigate the conversation, you know, because that's always a burden on every Hindu across every denomination and doctrine. Karma is central to all of them, right? So I try to take the conversation, okay, what if someone paid for all your karma?
00:16:26
Speaker
You know, that's what you, and that's the striking thing. Karma and grace are at complete opposites. What if someone paid for it? What if someone came in that place? You see? So that's a very different concept of sins. I look at threads instead of contrast. Sorry, go for it. No, I was just going to say, I'll just tease this out further. This is very, very helpful. You know, as you were speaking,
00:16:56
Speaker
there. I mean, that's so much in a sense reminds me of, you know, you look into Acts 17, which is, you know, such a passage has meant a lot to me over the years where, you know, Paul is there in Athens, alter the unknown gods. It doesn't come in and throw the whole thing out and go, it's led rubbish, you know, idols and so forth. He does this beautiful finding the contact points and the culture, and then bridging across. And there's something to be said for it. It sounds like you're doing this. One of our Christian, I have a friend in common Dan, Dan Strange,
00:17:23
Speaker
And I love Dan's approach is one of the things that Dan has written a lot on is this idea of how do you find what the other religion or the world view is yearning for and seeking and show that actually.
00:17:34
Speaker
In a sense, the quest is a good one, but the worldview can't answer the quest and that the thing that you're searching for is actually fulfilled there in the gospel, the subversive fulfillment idea. And as you were describing, I think that's brilliant, because you're right, so often we ask Christian questions, it doesn't compute. Same is true in Islam, where I do a lot of work. And so I think there's a lot of wisdom there. Yeah.
Yearning for a Father Figure in Hinduism
00:17:56
Speaker
Another one is like the fatherhood of God. You see, you help unpack why there's a yearning for a guru.
00:18:04
Speaker
In my case as well, it took me a while to unpack this, but why was I drawn to this guru who I believe to be God on Earth? I mean, not just me, but another million people dedicated. You're yearning, it's your desire and designed to have God the Father. And so you sort of unpack that as well for them, as what if God was your father, what if he was your dad? And that appeals
00:18:34
Speaker
that appeals and that goes deep. Because Hindus have a very, very deep reference for authority. Now that can be misunderstood as the desire to be controlled, but it's not. Culturally, they like authority. They like having a figure like that, a father kind of figure in their lives. I mean, we all yearn it, but it's quite evident in that worldview.
00:19:03
Speaker
They're talking about the fatherhood of God, you know, as God as your father, as your loving father, who loves you as you are. And that's another concept, you know, you're loved as you are.
00:19:16
Speaker
And that's a beautiful thing for a Hindu because they are constantly having to prove. They have to constantly perform. They have to work their way to heaven through whether it's bhuja, rituals, through rules, you know, doing this or their tithing or whatever. It's constant works, right? To please. So underneath that, God is their task master in a way. They don't say it like that, but so how about
00:19:46
Speaker
But what if you are loved as you are right now? And there's nothing you can do that would make him love you more. And there's nothing you've done that would make him love you less. You know, start, you know, talking about, talk about that because you'll see this in Hindu culture, constant proving and performance, you know.
00:20:10
Speaker
So helpful Rehil, thank you. I think as a final question, how do you think churches or individuals can just get started really in reaching Hindus? What might that look like?
Engaging Churches with Hindu Worldviews
00:20:23
Speaker
Oh, it's a great question to get started.
00:20:27
Speaker
I just haven't seen it started that much in the UK as much as I've seen in the US. There are a couple of churches I know in Harrow who are engaging well. I think first and foremost is to gain some knowledge about that worldview. Because even at Akka, I found that the knowledge was inaccurate. Whatever was being said was wrong. And Hindus,
00:20:56
Speaker
are very good at switching off and not showing it. If you get something wrong in terms of the knowledge,
00:21:03
Speaker
they'll be super hospitable, but then they'll switch off to that whole idea, that conversation very quickly. So knowledge is really important, you know, what kind of Hindu are there, is in my community, what kind of denominations, they are so different. I mean, you don't have to go into doctrinal study, but just understand the culture, how do they worship, and then sort of
00:21:29
Speaker
you know, take it from there, I would say. So knowledge is the first thing. And second thing is then, you know, try and put aside your Christian questions, and then just ask what they're searching for. That was huge amounts of
00:21:48
Speaker
wisdom in there.
Contact Information for Further Engagement
00:21:50
Speaker
You obviously do teach and train for churches on how to do this. So I suppose last practical question, how can people get in contact with you if they wanted perhaps, you know, to see whether you might be able to come and help them? Is that kind of thing you can do? How can people? Yeah, I do. I do that over Zoom. So it's called spiritual mapping. So once it's like I do it with a church in US, I help them understand what kind of temples are in their vicinity.
00:22:14
Speaker
So based on that, I help them understand the doctrine and the culture and thinking. So my email would be the best, which is very simple. It's rahill, R-A-H-I-L, 3272 at gmail.com.
00:22:30
Speaker
brilliant. Well, what we'll do is we'll put a link to that in the show notes as well and strongly encourage people. I love that you mentioned Harrow. I used to live in Harrow and we had, I kind of wish I'd had this conversation with you. This is 20 years ago because we had, we had Hindu neighbors on two sides and
00:22:45
Speaker
muslim neighbors on another the muslims i knew what i was doing with and the indians like the hindus i never fully i know i've never fully figured it out so no mistakes but you know it's great to have a have your wisdom well over here it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you it's always the case on pep talk we wish we'd had time for more but thank you so much for joining us
00:23:05
Speaker
and sharing really your life and story and what you're doing with us. And for myself and for Christy, we have enjoyed having you listening to us wherever you're listening to pep talk. We'll be back in two weeks time with another guest, so do join us on another episode of pep talk. Bye.