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Problem #10: The Quest Engine
155 Plays8 days ago
In this episode, Kristian and Tracy talk about both the need for, and the techniques surrounding creating a "quest engine" for your RPG game or setting--or the reasons the heroes are there in the first place. This includes discussion of "quest-giving" organizations and people, creating and utilizing meaningful elements that drive the story forward, and the effective creation of compelling NPCs to help guide the adventure. There's also a discussion about how to effectively integrate these elements in your game--creating immersion so the players don't even realize they're there.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Quest Engine
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to the Designing Problems RPG Podcast, where we explore RPG development and all the intentional and unintentional problems we create along the way. I'm Christian Serrano. And I'm Tracy Sizemore. We're your hosts for this shameless manipulation. And this week, we're going to talk about problem number 10, the Quest Engine.
Facing the Blank Page: The Need for a Quest Engine
00:00:42
Speaker
So Tracy, you find yourself seated before your keyboard. The blank page tears back at you into the endless depths of anxiety that you hold in your mind.
00:00:58
Speaker
What do you do? You feel the desire to put something onto this page. What do you do?
00:01:07
Speaker
That's not helping. i know I don't think like this is why we need a quest engine. You've just, you've just illustrated why we need a quest. Yeah. Yeah.
Engaging Adventures for GMs and Players
00:01:19
Speaker
And so and this is kind of meta, but like part of that is, you know, when you're,
00:01:26
Speaker
you're writing this adventure, you have all the hooks, you've got all the you know the the big set pieces and scenes and then what's going to be the final thing you know that they encounter, the major encounter, right? But then how do you write it such that you get the PCs into it, right? Get the players into it. yeah And so that's kind of what we're going to be addressing today is like, how do we make our adventures our adventures such that you know the Not only is the GM saying, oh, I want to run this, but the players are like, yeah, let's run with that. you yes yeah it's The idea behind this is, as a especially as a shared thing, as something you're going to share with others in a final form that is written down so that other people can follow your instructions.
00:02:14
Speaker
um It's important to somehow guide people along the posts of adventure, right?
RPG vs Video Game Goal-Setting
00:02:23
Speaker
The perfect example of this and something that Darrell and I, Darrell Hayhurst and I use as a guide as a way and I think Shane to a certain degree as a way of looking at it is the way video games do it.
00:02:39
Speaker
Right? Video games have a very meta way of doing this, at least the adventure type RPG type games that I play, which is they give you a goal. They give you a little journal or something that you can open so that you can know what your goal is. Like I've got to go to you know New Vegas in Fallout New Vegas and meet with X person. It tells me that in a meta way. like it's I've been reminded of this because somebody along the way or some reason along the way told me that I needed to go there.
00:03:16
Speaker
that journal never goes away. And in fact, it sometimes is displayed on the side of the screen for all to see, even as you're adventuring in the world. that's right yeah And this is a valid, very, very good way to do this. but Because video game designers have discovered over the years, if you don't have that, people get frustrated and don't know what to do.
00:03:44
Speaker
Right. Right.
Evolution of Quests in RPGs
00:03:45
Speaker
if you If it's just like, here's the open world, you can walk out the door and go do whatever. Then it's like, okay, well, that's, there's no guidance. There's no, you know, not now you're stuck in the, what am I supposed to do with this game kind of thing? Exactly. Exactly. Like in the olden days, we had Ultima. We had Ultima, right? In the olden days. And they didn't have this kind of stuff. They didn't have, here's your goal. Here's the latest thing from Lord British. He told you to go do this, right? We didn't have that. What we had was a notebook. We had a piece of paper and a pen that we had to write this stuff down on. Otherwise we would not remember that we needed to go to Moonglow and talk to this particular person about this particular thing, right? Yeah.
00:04:32
Speaker
Video games have, have come a long way since then. Yeah. I'm really appreciative of that evolutionary development. Because there's times I, I've literally dropped video games, like way older, you know, way older video games, yes RPGs in particular, where it's like, I don't remember what I'm supposed to do. And there's no, like, this is before they had the journal concept. Yes.
00:04:53
Speaker
And I dropped this because I had to i had to i had to i you know got off of it for some reason. And now I'm coming back two months later and I have no idea what I'm supposed to do. Modern video games have solved this problem. yes right And they do it very well. Yeah. What's what's your current objective?
Goal Systems in RPGs: Player Advancement
00:05:11
Speaker
It's this thing.
00:05:12
Speaker
yeah no i think it's In fact, Darrell and I have gone so far as to create ah goal systems for RPGs were in where it's it's it's obvious. Okay, this this person has given you this thing. Now you have a goal. thing It shows up on the side of your screen. Go meet with X person. That's a goal. You will get XP or advances if you go and meet that goal.
00:05:39
Speaker
If you do that thing, that's how you're going to advance in this game. Not only by narratively, but also you know your character. right right That's how you're going to advance.
00:05:50
Speaker
We don't, Daryl and I have kind of decided not to do that anymore because there's better, more subversive, more sneaky ways to do that kind of thing. But the concept is still there. And as a designer, these things are really valuable to think about.
00:06:12
Speaker
Interesting, yeah. I think, I think. And so I use the video game model um when I'm designing these larger campaigns or even smaller adventures and say, okay, what's the goal? right Once they've reached that goal, great. Now we have branching goals or whatever we're going to do.
00:06:31
Speaker
you know, like dilemmas, like the mass effect, do you kill the rachni queen or do you not kill the rachni queen? and and And you know, you're sitting there for 15 minutes deciding what to do. And this is a major decision in the story. Yeah. And that can be part of an RPG as well. Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
Designing Plot Point Campaigns
00:06:50
Speaker
Start looking at it from that perspective, because it really helps in in seeing how they solve the problem of the dilemma and how you can make that choice matter without messing up your game entirely, right? But also to make it feel like there's an alive world out there that the players are influenced. A responsive world, yeah. Yes. So that's my kind of intro to this whole thing. Yeah. yeah Because you can you can like really translate that idea into RPGs.
00:07:23
Speaker
you know I find it fascinating because you know with an RPG, especially you know whether it's computer or console, video game RPG, right um you know you yeah you have these choices. And of course, programmatically, they have all these different forks and branches of story development based on what the player chooses.
00:07:44
Speaker
I could see that being really challenging to pull off when you're dealing with something like a plot point campaign, where you kind of need certain specific things to happen as you're going along. But they're you know we've we've seen in plot point campaigns where there's room for some of the side things to you know to alter.
00:08:04
Speaker
right like ah Without impacting you know especially with like a savage tail that you drop in in the middle of it you know and and it doesn't alter the main plot so how do you when you're when you and you and you mentioned you and Darryl talking about this and designing with that in mind how do you yeah handle that how do you you know allow for.
Creating Dilemmas and Player Choices
00:08:23
Speaker
Those deviations but still steer you know in a particular direction.
00:08:28
Speaker
There are lots of little tricks you can do and and they can they they can still feel very impactful and Honcluster has them. There's these dilemmas that that most of them are going to be the kind where you know ah a much larger percentage of the hero groups are going to do this, but a smaller percentage might do this, right? And if if you design the dilemmas well enough, you've got you've got a good compelling argument on either side. um But generally, I tend to favor one or the other as ah as a designer, as ah as a like, okay, this is more likely going to happen because this is because I know what heroes are going to do.
00:09:09
Speaker
Generally player groups and I know what they're gonna do and I think most of them will do this But someone will do this or they most of them will succeed at doing this Some of them will fail at doing this and the point here is that you have the option for both is that if they do fail, you've got a contingency for it. If they do choose the lower percentage dilemmas horn, then you've got ah but an idea for what consequences or what that means for the setting or what that means for the for the campaign going forward. And HON cluster has a few of those. And one of them is um deciding whether to help a certain group
00:09:53
Speaker
introduce itself to the the universe, right? Whether you help them or not. if you If you help them, they become allies in the future. If you don't help them, they become an impediment in the future. And there could be good, solid hero reasons and in character for them to decide not to trust them.
00:10:23
Speaker
Right? And so then it's a matter of, okay, well, we have these allies now, or we don't, and we have to go back and deal with them in some other respect later. Right.
00:10:35
Speaker
right That doesn't throw off the whole plot point campaign. It just adds a little bit of ah of a difference in how it's resolved right right like and and who is helping you along the way. Whatever that later plot point is, it's whether or not they're are on your side or somebody else's side or their own. Yeah. Or or even by adding to the problem. right and And same with if you get this particular McGuffin, we're going to talk about those later, then you've got it. Great. Obviously you're going to be like 80% or 90% of the player groups are going to get it. If they don't get it, if they fail,
00:11:15
Speaker
That way the GM can give you a failure, like say, oh, well, sorry, you didn't get it. You know, you messed up. You just, it just didn't happen for you. Now you've got another side adventure of Savage Tail, you've got to finish to get it. Right. And so that, that gives you like that branching feeling of like these things matter. Yeah.
00:11:39
Speaker
And yet in the ultimate scheme, just like a video game, they kind of don't matter because you're going to end up in the same place anyway. It's a matter of whether you've created an ally along the way or whether you've had to, whether you've taken down this particular organization along the way or not, or whether you had to, all that other stuff that's out there, right? It still matters to the world, but it doesn't really change the campaign.
00:12:07
Speaker
Right.
Role of Quest Givers and Player Relationships
00:12:07
Speaker
Right. Yeah. it it Like you said, it just sort of colors. Yes. And that's what role playing is about. Yeah. Like it matters. these These things matter to players. They matter to heroes because it's like now my um my character is reacting differently to things, even if the the same things are basically happening. Right.
00:12:27
Speaker
it matters to me. the the the And the way the GM presents the world is a little bit changed because of what the players did or did not do or succeeded at or did not succeed at or what they had to do to get this done. Right. So we're touching on, on ah or you touched on a couple of things already. um One being like, say for example,
00:12:48
Speaker
ah You have an example of like a quest giver, right? You have this group that they they need to be introduced to whatever and whether or not you help them, right? So that could be, that could be one model. You briefly mentioned the McGuffin, which we'll get into. And then, and then we have like just other various NPCs in general. Let's dive a little bit into like the quest giver, like that quintessential model, right? um You know, that and that can be an organization, right? It could be like the CIA, the FBI, the, you know, local, you know, watch, you know, city watch or whatever. yeah It could be the Twilight Legion in Deadlands. It could be the Delphi Council in Torg. It could be the Federation or the or Starfleet in Star Trek. right It could be all those kinds of organizations that all the heroes work for. And that's a very simple, straightforward way that a lot of role-playing games
00:13:39
Speaker
ah you right so you're You're part of that organization. Here are your orders. Here are your orders. right very Very straightforward. um And then you know then we also have like individuals. You can have like an individual who is in need of help. Maybe there's somebody that's ah that's tied to the party directly you know somehow. It could be you know like a family member or just some you know somebody that's close to them in general, a mascot even. or Or ah you know like D and&D kind of embraced this with Fifth Edition as the concept of of the patron, right the person that's hiring you you know as a mercenary or whatever to do this thing. It's like, let's just admit this culture just call it what it is. right and but But that works too, because like now you're obligated to fulfill this job, you know to complete this job. And and then that's a relationship.
00:14:29
Speaker
that also builds over time, right? They trust you more, you become closer, you know, maybe there's more personal information shared and you know, things like that. Um, and then that person could even be, you know, part of the story, not just the person that hires you.
00:14:44
Speaker
Yeah. And and like Lacey O'Malley in Deadlands or, or LMA Hawkins in Holler right or Haley Preston in Hauntcluster or Tess of the red in 50 fathoms. All these people are quest guests. They're all telling you that there's something wrong and that you need to go do something. Right. Right. Right. The Gandalfs of the world. Exactly. yeah And that's the thing is about that and i'm a
00:15:17
Speaker
i'm ah I'm a bit of a contrarian about quest givers. Not that I don't use them. Everybody uses them. yeah like you You can't get away from them, especially if you're publishing an adventure. Like I said, if you're putting it out there for others to run, if if you're just a GM doing a sandbox campaign that you've created, you can get away with all kinds of stuff that subverts and ignores the idea of quest games. But when you're publishing stuff for other people,
00:15:48
Speaker
a have to be there in a certain sense. ah go It's very, very difficult to design without it. Yeah. There's only so many ways you can do the, this affected you personally as a group, and now you're compelled personally to go do this thing. it's you know that That tires out over time. It does. It's doable. and Not too long. now you unless you can Unless you're good at manipulating them and hiding these things, and we'll get into that. Right. And that's a thing, right? like you could You could have it, maybe it slightly starts off like that.
00:16:18
Speaker
Um, but then the patron or whomever steps in and says, we have shared goals or you seem capable. We can, you know, we need you to go do this thing and you know, that kind of thing. So there's, or we want to he to help you the will provide resources. i'm yeah I'm doing all the behind the scenes work, yeah like the research work, the boring crap that you guys don't want to do. You're the strike team that does the right stuff. And that's,
00:16:46
Speaker
it's it's It's all there. it's all Just look look in your role playing books. They're almost all there as far as adventures go. Sometimes they're well hidden. And that's cool to me. That's super cool. And we'll get into that. We'll get into that because yes that's a cool thing.
00:17:03
Speaker
um But patrons, yeah, I like the idea that D and&D is just flat. Oh, yeah, yeah. it's like and And that's not to say they never existed before. We had that concept. They're just like, you know what? We're going to give it an actual label and here's a page about some patrons that you can have in your campaign. you know Fantastic. yeah Fantastic. It's like great. that right And people love it and eat it up because they're like, this is exactly what I've been eating.
00:17:26
Speaker
you know Now I know. Now I know. Ah, this is important. Great. Somebody's going to tell me, this is my patron. i'm goingnna They're going to tell me, or or the gm the GM knows. right right The GM knows how to how to manipulate players with the patrons. Five organizations in the forgotten realms or whatever that that can you know be your patron for your group or whatever.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, and the same with factions. Factions are the same, serve the same purpose in a lot of these things. Exactly. Yeah.
The McGuffin Trope in RPG Design
00:17:52
Speaker
So let's talk about MacGuffins. Yes. So the term MacGuffin, I don't remember where exactly it came from, but it's basically a trope of like the thing, right? The Maltese Falcon, they right? The the special thing. Right. The golden idol, the the ark the Ark of the Covenant, right? It's the thing that everybody's trying to go get.
00:18:10
Speaker
ah So it comes out of you know very common pulp type stories, right? um This legendary artifact you know that can destroy or save the world, who knows? One ring, so on and so forth. yeah um so So ultimately, like like if we think about Lord of the Rings,
00:18:32
Speaker
Yes, there's the whole thing of the one ring. We're going to take it to, you know, Mount Doom, drop it in the lava and, you know, destroy it, destroy Sauron. But, but really what the story is, is we need to stop Sauron, right? Because Sauron doesn't even have the ring, but he's still like spreading and invading and destroying and so on. The ring is just going to make it that much easier for him in the end. You know, that's, that's his ultimate goal, but you know And so the the books even layer it. They layer the story and like, yes, there's this story about the ring making its way to the fires of Mount Doom. But then there's all this other adventure that's happening. We got to help the people of Rohan. We got to go and help you know Gondor and they need aid and all these different things. you know
00:19:19
Speaker
um And that's oh we have to do this before we can pass this right you know area to get to do Mordor, or or right you know we have to do X to do this. Right, right exactly. And so so the MacGuffin itself, can it can either be, it can be the main point of the story, or it could be the catalyst for the story. yeah Yeah. So what are, what are some examples that you've used, you know, um, a McGuffin and, and, you know, whether it's the catalyst, the core of the story or whatever it might be, or even whether it's for a campaign or an individual adventure. but So in Savage World's parlance, I mean, they're used all the time, right? In Savage World's parlance, the heart of an archmage in 50,000 is a McGuffin. It's something you got to go get.
00:20:07
Speaker
in order to take down the CX. You can't do it without it, right? And, you know, there's a couple of ways to get one, but it is a MacGuffin and arc mages are rare in 50 fathoms, like super rare. And so it's like, well, you need it. At some point you're gonna, you're gonna have to get it, you know, and same thing. And with Han cluster, there are a couple in the plot point campaign. There's the antibody.
00:20:33
Speaker
There's the isolator. all Both of these things are needed in order to get rid of the yellow shift. right there They're heavily integrated with the lore of the Hong cluster.
00:20:48
Speaker
which I think is important and cool because the better you can integrate and disguise these things um as not just, okay, this is a trophy MacGuffin we've got to go get. I kind of hate that reductionist aspect of it.
00:21:05
Speaker
I don't like it when people say, oh, I need to go get the MacGuffin the antibody. What it does is show off the fact that they understand the narrative here and that there's ah there's an important thing to get, but it also dismisses the work that the designer has put in to make that MacGuffin meaningful in the story.
00:21:28
Speaker
So to use that term, I use it because it's a very useful design term, but in play, I kind of don't like when people use that term because I've put in a lot of work to integrate these things.
00:21:44
Speaker
into the narrative and lore of the story. So it takes away immersion to do that. It belittles it too, right? It does. Even as a player, I've played in campaigns where there's a MacGuffin and somebody will say, all right, let's go get the MacGuffin. I'm like, oh, come on. Let's just be immersed. Oh, come on. Let's be a little bit more immersed in that. Let's keep the mysticism of the thing or whatever it is. Yeah.
00:22:07
Speaker
Part of that is on the designer. yeah right If you're just saying, well, we need this magic key to blah, blah, blah. you know like it If it doesn't matter to you, then it's much easier to dismiss it that way. right You can just say, I need the magic key. yeah Whatever. But if the magic key has some significance besides just being a magic key,
00:22:29
Speaker
Like if there's a lore reason for it and how it was how it was forged or whatever, it unlocks or whatever. right give your Really think about it. Integrate that that thing with the lore because then it'll be much, much easier for heroes to immerse themselves in it and not even realize it's a MacGuffin. yeah In fact, if they're immersed enough. right So these things are useful from the design standpoint, but also it takes a lot of work to get them so that they're seamlessly integrated with what you're trying to present. yeah And I think it's worth that effort. You know, i I wonder if one of the distinguishing factors is whether you're going to get the MacGuffin or whether you have the MacGuffin at the start and you have to take it somewhere else. Right. and the And the reason why I'm saying this is because like, if you think about the one ring,
00:23:27
Speaker
They have the one ring. It's not like they have to go get it and go do a thing with it. They have it already right off the bat. But what's really critical about the one ring and the reason why it has so much weight is the effect that it's having on Frodo throughout the journey.
00:23:43
Speaker
Right. it's And then you can see the danger of this item, you know, like the, the, the um, the Nazgul are drawn to it. You know, Frodo becomes, you know, um, more and more, um, enticed by it. Right. There's even, and there are others who are seeking it like, you know, Gollum and, and of course Sauron. Um, and so I feel like there's, there's, there's weight given to it beyond, Oh, let's just get the thing and, you know, go do the thing with it.
00:24:13
Speaker
Yes. do you and do you think that's Do you think that's accurate in what I'm portraying here? that There's a difference. Yeah, that makes a difference of having it where it's present and you can see the impact that it has on the story and the world. I don't i don't think so because I think the the idea is like, we need to get the heart of an archmage. That's interesting, right? like There are maybe four archmages out there.
00:24:42
Speaker
and they're all alive. We need to have a heart, the heart of one. One way or the other, we need to figure it out. So the fact that you have to go to a living archimage and get it is, yes. For me, it's easy. And this is me. I get immersed super easily, especially if there's any effort put into these things where I don't even think on the over the top view of this kind of stuff. i't I'm immersed. I'm in it. I'm like, ah awesome. Heart of an archmage. We need that in order to in order to to get the power we need to do this. right I don't even think in terms of McGuffin as as a player. Boof kind of does that because what she'll do is watch
00:25:24
Speaker
watch you know whatever series or whatever movie and she'll have this over the top view because she's read so many mysteries or or seen so many things that she points out when there's product placement oh yeah points out the stuff like that in part but because she wants to to like show off but also it's just that she can't help but see it and for me i'm too much to notice that yeah.
00:25:45
Speaker
yeah I don't care, it doesn't matter to me, right? Yeah, great, they put Alexis in, I don't care. Yeah, right. Is she the type of person that'll like that'll ah call out like, oh, so this is gonna happen next, watch. like Well, she she she's pretty good about not spoiling things for me, but she does, sometimes she'll say, oh i know I think I know what's gonna happen. That's what I mean, yeah, the predictive thing, not the, I've seen this, but the, yeah, because I do that.
00:26:13
Speaker
I ah think like a writer. I'm like, this, this is what the writers are probably thinking. And for me, it's super easy. Just, I just get lost. Yeah. I just go with it. I, I, even if I've seen it a hundred times, even if, even if, you know, it's like, I'm still like, ah, ah they did the work. They put the work in and they made me immersed, you know? And I get a little bit annoyed when people feel like they need to do that to, to other people.
00:26:42
Speaker
to break that immersion, you know? Because I'm like, oh man, it seems like I'm not enjoying it as much as you. But that's not true though, because Booth enjoys it in her own way. She enjoys doing it. Well, it's like solving the mystery along with, you know. It is, it is. Like you get a sense of pride and like, oh, I know who it is, you know. Right, right. But I think the point we're making is that, like I said before, is to integrate these things, to really think about how they,
00:27:11
Speaker
how they matter in the world. The more you can do that, the more disguised they will be, and the more immersed the heroes will be in interacting with them. And the less chance you have of somebody saying, all right, let's go get the McGuffin. That's the worst. right And you want somebody to be immersed and say, oh, yeah.
00:27:31
Speaker
Let's get the antibody. That's going to be, that's going to, that's an anti next weapon. I wonder what that does. Like if somebody wanted to get rid of the next entirely, like this, these are the things that I want you to think about. Not that, Oh, I just need to get the McGuffin. Yeah. You know, so, you know, you you got your quest giver who kind of kicks it off. You've got the McGuffin, which is like a goal or an objective, but there's also the opportunity to have like.
00:27:56
Speaker
like guideposts along the way, right? Whether it's an event or an NPC, um yes maybe they're affected by what's happening in the world and there's some, you know, they they have some information or or whatever it might be that they can guide you along or remind you even, hey, this is, you remember you're, don't forget, we got, this is the bigger problem. I understand that you're hooked on this one NPC in the bar, but. Yeah. yeah yeah I may or may not have had you know player players do that, where it's like they're more focused on that bartender than they are on the overarching story. And that's that's that's fair. it It happens. It happens. you kind As a GM, you kind of got to go with that kind of stuff, right? And try to find a way to get people back on.
00:28:43
Speaker
on track when they really go off the rails. And and you know the like one way to handle that is having those NPCs like yeah you know give them some color, flush them out, yes but then also maybe use them as a vehicle to convey how what's happening is affecting them.
00:28:57
Speaker
e you know And then it's it drives back that point of like, oh yeah, we got this bigger thing we got to deal with. um Or maybe it doesn't affect them yet, but it will you know at some point, right? Yeah, i'm I'm a big fan of that. I'm a big fan of what's the word. I'm i'm looking for not colorful, but um compelling, compelling NPCs.
00:29:22
Speaker
Yeah. Right. And I think you can do that. there's there's ah There's a big sort of myth out there. You you make the PCs too interesting and and the heroes don't matter, right? Oh, yeah. I don't think that's really true. I think you can't it can happen. But as long as you keep in mind that the heroes are the heroes of this story, that they are the primary movers and shakers without them,
00:29:47
Speaker
success would not be achieved. If you keep that in mind, you can create super compelling NPCs that oh yeah not only not only are are reasons to fight and reasons to do things, but also can be allies yes without taking away the hero's agency. It doesn't have to be anybody that's more powerful or more wealthy than the players. It could be somebody who is maybe disadvantaged.
00:30:13
Speaker
yeah right they They don't have those resources, but they need your help. But it could be somebody more powerful and wealthy than the players. Yes, it could. right But maybe their hands are tied or... as Yeah, their hands are tied or they don't have the gifts that the heroes do or they don't have the abilities. like There's something that that makes them incapable of doing what the heroes are going to do. yeah have you Have you ever used an NPC, or whether as ah as a writer or as a GM, where you have an NPC that you plant at the beginning of the campaign that it's assumed that you all have a relationship with this person? Like you've known this person, you grew up with this person, or or you've known them as as long as you've lived in this village.
00:30:57
Speaker
You know, you've known this person to be like a staple in this in the and the community or whatever, and then and then use that as a tool, like connecting the backstories, you know, to that yeah to that character. So with, especially with, I i i don't do it in published stuff so much.
00:31:17
Speaker
i introduce I'll introduce an NPC's very first adventure, and and then that can be an optional thing that the GM develops a relation you know that the uses as as a way to catalyze relationships among the heroes or you know develop a relationship with that NPC as the as the campaign goes. But as a GM, as somebody who's made my own thing, okay, this is not for publication, I have created I've done like my Cosmic Supers mini campaign where when when we do character creation, I have you create an NPC that's meaningful to your character and why you know what ties you to them. And then there's ah there's a reason for that. There's a narrative reason for why I'm asking you to do this ah for the theme of the whole campaign. But it allows them to create their own you know child or
00:32:16
Speaker
or sister or, yeah you know, some obligation ex lover or whatever. Right. Exactly. That they are tied to in some way. And then I let them explain in what way they're tied to. And then we, and then I use that going forward to interact with them in different ways. Yeah. Not necessarily always put them in peril. Although, right, right. No, sir you don't have to, but it could be, you know, it could be maybe there's a conflict, you know, yes a conflict of interest even. Um,
00:32:43
Speaker
Or just they have interests and they want to do something and the PCs maybe know better. And then they have to deal with talking about it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the reason why I was asking is, uh, I've, I've been pondering, uh, you know, I've talked about backstory cards on this show and other shows and whatever. Um, and I'm planning to use them for, for, as a writing tool, because you can use them as a writing tool as well.
00:33:10
Speaker
But I've wondered about having for specific NPCs in, say, Explorer, for example, having like maybe like a table of prompts that the players could choose, you know, how they're connected to that person. And then that person is written it's written in that they are, you know, the quest giver or whatever it might be. Yes. But there's that established relationship that, you know, the players either randomly, you know, roll for or choose or whatever it might be, yep and then flush out. And I'm, I'm just really curious if anybody's done that in a written product yet, and whether or not that that would play well.
00:33:48
Speaker
i think it would I think it would work. and think yeah I think it absolutely could work. right And I think similar to that, although not that, ah Pine Box Middle School does it
Tools for NPC Connections: Backstory Cards and Random Tables
00:33:58
Speaker
um with the connections setting rule. I forget what we called it. But there's a whole set of tables there like that tells you, okay, so you meet a kid in school.
00:34:09
Speaker
Oh, nice. go to the Go to the connection setting rule part and roll on these tables to find out what relationship you've had with this kid, right? Perfect. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. And then the GM can absolutely flush out that character, make them a quest giver of some kind, make them a rival, blah, blah, blah. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff you can do.
00:34:28
Speaker
And and in in terms of a published product, that allows you as the designer to create these kinds of things without getting into the details that the GM needs to do. It really is up to them. You're not prescribing too much. You're yeah you're giving them a tool that you know that they can then work with. Yeah. That's pretty cool. If you need to be more prescriptive as a designer, then you're making a specific NPC that has a specific purpose. I think it's better just to make a Haley Preston in Han cluster and and say, this is Haley Preston. This is who she is. This is what she is. this is this You're going to meet her and you're going to find out about her, but it's not a randomized let the GM figure it out thing.
00:35:16
Speaker
I think there's there's levels there, right? if If they're really important, then flush them out and do it. If they're if there's something that the gm can that you can say, okay, GM, these guys can become a quest giver, it's up to you, here's some tables to give you some general information, great. if If you don't want to have that kind of hand of control on it, then do it. you know Go ahead and put the put the tables in and let the GM assign importance to that NPC as they need to.
00:35:45
Speaker
Right? But I think that there's value and this is this is a whole thing that I struggle with in in terms of like, no, this is why I create ah specific genders and specific backstories for pre-gens rather than tend to go for generic pre-gens that players can create backstories for. Because if I do the specific thing,
00:36:10
Speaker
And I can integrate with them with the adventure very tightly. yes If I do the general thing, then I'm up to the players. They get to put their own backstory on it, but I may or may not integrate that into the adventure. Right. Right. So I'm just babbling. But I think that there's a there's a trade off there and I think there's value to both. And I think that's my point.
00:36:31
Speaker
Yeah. So, you know, we, we talked about the McGuffin being kind of like, you know, that can feel very tropey. It can be dismissive, kind of belittles the, the, the context of it or whatever. Um, and then that can kind of happen too with quest givers as well. Okay. So how, how do we,
00:36:52
Speaker
I'll just use the word that that we're that we were thinking of. the How do we subvert that? How do we keep it from being just the, okay, here's your patron. They're going to give you the quest and you know. I think i think it goes it goes a long way if you, like like I said before, um integrate it carefully with your lore, with your with with the idea of what's going on in the world. The more integrated they are, the more seamless it is, the less obvious it's going to be, or the more immersed they're going to be and the less they'll care.
00:37:26
Speaker
Right. So as as opposed to being something that feels like it was dropped in. Yes. This is the tavern barkeep. It's organic. Tavern barkeep happens to know all this stuff, right? Random all this stuff. and And that's fine, but it's so tropey that it becomes very obvious that we've done it that way. Yeah. Right. So maybe it's more organic with like dialogue.
00:37:48
Speaker
Yeah, if it's more organic with how you met them, why they're there, what their motivations are, what's going on with them, then it becomes a little more seamless and a little more and a little easier to immerse yourself in and not try to look over the top as a meta.
00:38:06
Speaker
and And you kind of got to strike a balancer because I could see that being, you know, there's there's the quick and dirty, here's the bartender who knows everything. Yeah. And that's fine. And then i and then there's the long buildup of exposition with this NPC and yeah yeah their backstory. And then finally you get to the thing that they're needing from you, you know, yeah so we got you know finding that balance as a writer,
00:38:27
Speaker
um you know it's it's it's you know you You want to subvert because you don't want to do that just big drop necessarily, but you know want to you want to feed it in naturally and organically somehow.
00:38:37
Speaker
it Yeah. And the more you do that, the more you try to hide it and and subvert those expectations, the harder it is. Yeah. And that's not saying it's not worth doing. And that it's not to say that doing the the the quick entropy type isn't isn't good. That's fine. It's fine. My preference is to try to hide these things. And one of the ways I do it in OnCluster is,
00:39:05
Speaker
yeah yeah And this kind of was, poor Shane was confused and not sure at first, because I did it mechanically. And I'm saying, okay, here's your first adventure. Here's what happens, right? Great. Now you're exponent together. Now what that means is this, you can communicate telepathically, you can send your ex-ghost to other people, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what that means. You are all exponent together.
00:39:34
Speaker
right Now, what do you do? And the thing is in the in in the plot point campaign for the Honk cluster, the next act is going to happen the minute any one of these players or these heroes leave the planet. Any one of the players leave the planet and there's reasons to leave, yeah right?
00:39:56
Speaker
Now we're in plot point number two and because we're exponent together, if one person is there, everybody is there. Right. And so I'm hiding the fact that we're all going to be doing this together.
00:40:11
Speaker
in that first act because I just want you to feel like I need to understand what's happening. I need to explore this world a little bit more. and i don't you don't what What drove Shane nuts is that you don't need a reason to hang out with these people that you just met and became exponent to. Trust me, you don't need a reason because in act two, you're all going to have a reason and you're all going to be able to do it because youre because of your exponent, it's going to happen.
00:40:40
Speaker
So he was thinking in a very meta way, like, okay, well, what's going to happen now? so Yes. What do we do now? I don't, I don't know what we do. And I fixed that a little bit. I gave him a little bit more because I felt like he was right and a little bit that I could, I could mess with that a bit. But at the same time, I'm like, when he, when he mentioned it, Daryl and I, who have been through testing the plot point can't be multiple times where it looks like, trust me. yeah Trust me. like I know it feels this way and I want you to feel that way. I feel like that's a whole other topic of the whole like, if we're, if we find ourselves in, and I won't double on this too much, but if we find ourselves in a situation where we're having to say, trust me, did we fail somewhere? you know like Is there something we need to adjust? Right? That's what I felt. I'm like, okay, I need a little bit more. I need a little more. Darryl dissuaded me from doing a little more. He's like, no, it's fine the way it is. And I'm like, no, I think I do need more because yeah i want I don't want people to ask that question. But at the same time,
00:41:45
Speaker
I want you to feel that way a little bit. Like what are we doing? What's happening? Why are we here? And then all of a sudden, by the time act two comes around, you start to realize what's actually happened and that you are indelibly linked, whether you like it or not. yeah And I think that's cool. i think that's ah I think that's really interesting. And I tried to, because of Shane's feedback, I gave a little bit back but I didn't go too far back. And and i think I think that compromise was a good compromise, but I am all about trying to hide those kinds of motivations to adventure if I can.
00:42:30
Speaker
let them be intrinsic to the story. sort Exactly. Right. Exactly. Wow. It's harder. It is much, much harder. And it's much easier just to make a quest giver, just to give him a guffin, to use these tropes that work. And I would probably recommend it because it's so much easier and it's going to be, it's going to be so much more accessible to players on a meta level.
00:42:53
Speaker
yeah that, ah, we need this thing, we go fetch and quest this thing, we go get it, we do this thing, we do this, we do this. you know it's it's It's easier for them to wrap their heads around. right So I would recommend doing that and not my way, but my way, it's much more rewarding when you can pull it off. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's interesting because speaking to that whole like, trust me or wait for the payoff type of thing. Another thing I was going to mention as far as subverting you know, expectations of a quest giver was the idea of like, Oh yeah.
Subverting Quest Giver Tropes
00:43:26
Speaker
I mean, what if they're actually the villain or what if they're a third party with their own motives and they're using you to deal with the villains, you know, or something to that effect. That's a big thing in like cyberpunk setting. Yeah. Yeah. Very noir stuff where you're working for the bad guys, but
00:43:41
Speaker
You may even know it, right but you're still gonna do it. Or competing good guy, so to speak. Or competing anti-hero, I guess. but um you know But that's hard to pull off because, ah the the yeah, the payoff is later. And you have to make sure that the players know to potentially expect that kind of thing. Exactly. If you throw that at them without any indication that that could happen. If there's no foreshadowing of it on the wall, it can really break down your campaign completely.
00:44:11
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Because here players like me can feel betrayed yeah by the GM by the on a meta level. Especially if it's not you know obvious at all. like um yeah It can feel cheaty if you don't do it right. yeah Harder, but you can do it. Right. Cool.
00:44:35
Speaker
Well, that was thick stuff, I thought, and I know that we were a little bit repetitive, but i it's it's one of those things. this is This is the behind the curtain, how you design stuff, yeah not necessarily the stuff you reveal to players. Right.
00:44:51
Speaker
you know like there's other There's other tools you can use as a designer to help to help you create these adventures, to create these campaigns and settings that you'll never need to reveal to the players because you've done the work using these tools and all of a sudden they're tightly integrated and they and they they're not even noticeable.
00:45:11
Speaker
Yeah. That's a great point, Tracy. I think, I think it's a really good way to to wrap it up because you know, what we're, what we're really talking about here is giving the GM the tools through the design process and even through the written word. So, you know, maybe even having a sidebar saying, you know, kind of giving some guidance to the GM on how to execute a thing might be helpful, you know, and and and giving them the intent of, you know, what, what you as the designer is trying to pull off. Exactly. On-cluster has all of about all that stuff because that's why part partly why the plot point campaign is so long. is Number one, I use a lot of compelling NPCs.
00:45:48
Speaker
And number two, I want the GM to understand what they're doing. right And I want to make sure that they know. Right. Not have to fill in the gaps and retrace his mind. Right. I want you to, I want you to understand. I don't want you to feel lost. And I don't want the players to feel lost either. In fact, we talked a little bit about one of those NPCs that gives you that help along the way. I've got a safety valve and you know in the second third of the plot point campaign to make sure that we review for the heroes what we've done so far and what we're trying to do. nice Just in case they're not following. right keep them all on the same I have a person that they can ask questions of, that they can review all this with in character,
00:46:39
Speaker
Yeah. So that they can be, ah, now we know this final, the final, now we know the final push. We know what we've done. We know what we have to do. We're ready to go into the last two acts. Excellent. You know, very cool. So anyway, yeah there it is.
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00:46:55
Speaker
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