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Ft. Dr Gina Cleo ~ Habits ~ Self Compassion ~ Self Efficacy
8k Plays3 years ago
I am so excited to share this episode with the amazing Dr Gina Cleo.
Gina originally graduated as a dietician and through the years that followed, she found that while she could help her clients lose weight and become healthier versions of themselves, it was a short term fix. Gina noticed they were putting on the weight and sinking back into old habits within a few weeks to months afterwards. So, with a burning desire to help people long term, Gina began to study her PHD in habit change at Bond University. Gina has now become one of Australia’s leading experts in habit change as she converts her evidence based research into simple, actionable strategies to help implement long term positive change.
Gina and I discuss the basics of what habits actually are and how you are most likely going to be able to change them - for good! We discuss habits like emotional eating, bad sleep patterns, nail biting and mindlessly scrolling on our phones and also delve into habits which, I didn’t actually realise were habits! Like our reactions to people or situations as well as thought patterns.
This is an inspiring chat backed by science and research. Gina discusses how self efficacy is the number 1 predictor of success. Her three steps to achieving a goal or changing a habit align so well with Pass Around the Smile, so I know my community are going to LOVE what she has to say around this!
Dr Cleo and I also chat about sacrifices we subconsciously make through our everyday habits and how to weigh up if they are compromising our peace.
Gina has so much to say on topics like self control, comparison, values and the connection we crave as humans - and you bet we touch on it all!
Gina is all about consistency, not intensity. She says that setbacks don’t make you a failure, they make you human.
You can find Dr Gina Cleo below, as well as links to habit trackers!
https://www.instagram.com/drginacleo/?hl=en
https://www.drginacleo.com/post/habit-tracker
https://www.drginacleo.com/post/habit-tracker-apps
You can find your host, Cleo Massey below!
View my website here! (My very own oracle cards, journals, meditations + more magical stuff available!)
Find me on Instagram here!
@passaroundthesmile
@cleomassey
The Pass Around the Smile podcast is recorded on Bundjalung Country, in South East Queensland, Australia. We acknowledge the Yugambeh people of the Bundjalung Nation, the traditional owners of this land. We pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Pass Around the Smile'
00:00:03
Speaker
Pass Around the Smile is like your go-to friend, the one that lifts you up and backs you to the end. She's there to guide and inspire, challenge and teach, and remind you that your best self isn't out of reach. Self-development, manifestation, self-love and more, it's time to trust the process more than ever before. Welcome to Pass Around the Smile, the podcast.
Meet Dr. Gina Cleo: Habit Change Expert
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm your host, Cleo Massey, and I am so glad you're here. Let the magic begin.
00:00:33
Speaker
I'm so excited about our guest today. So right away, let me introduce you to Dr. Gina Cleo. Gina is one of those people who you just can't help but love.
00:00:43
Speaker
She's kind, she's funny, she's ridiculously smart and passionate. She works hard yet she still maintains a beautifully balanced life. And I do think she resembles a real life fairy angel queen, to be honest. But Gina has worked very hard to be where she is today. She originally graduated as a dietician and through the years that followed, Gina found that where she could help her clients lose weight and become healthier versions of themselves,
00:01:08
Speaker
it was a short-term fix. She found they were putting on the weight and sinking back into old habits within a few weeks to months afterwards. So with a burning desire to help people long-term, Gina began to study her PhD in habit change at Bond University.
Strategies in Habit Change
00:01:25
Speaker
Gina has now become one of Australia's leading experts in habit change as she converts her evidence-based research into simple, actionable strategies to help implement long-term positive change.
00:01:37
Speaker
And I can say this with confidence because I was lucky enough to see Gina in her element in a master class a few weeks ago. And not only was I blown away, but also left with a really clear understanding of which steps I needed to take with my own habits that need breaking. So I hope you are excited for an inspiring and thought provoking episode with Dr. Gina Cleo.
00:02:02
Speaker
Hi, Gina. Welcome to the Pass Around the Smile podcast. This is so exciting. It is. Thanks for having me, Cleo. Oh, you are so welcome. So this is actually Dr. Cleo and Cleo coming together for a podcast. How amazing. You're the only Cleo I've ever met. You're the only Cleo with the last name that I have met. And I feel like our connection
00:02:23
Speaker
kind of comes from stems from the Clio. 100%. We are like kindred spirits. We really are. Just from the Clio. Yeah. It's really brought us together. So for my listeners,
00:02:33
Speaker
Gina and I met a few years ago at Bond University. I guess you could say we're somewhat colleagues. I do some acting work for the medical students. And as you heard in my intro, Gina is a woman of many, many talents. She does. You do. You do a lot. I do a lot. You do do a lot. I love variety. Yes. So do you get bored easy?
00:02:57
Speaker
No, it's funny. I'm one of those people who, well, actually I do get bored easily, but I live a life where I'm never bored because I'm always doing so many different things. I love that. Well, so you maybe you knew that you were kind of like a person that could get bored. So you filled your life off with literally study dietitian, then stop the clinic for a little bit to study your PhD on habits. Yeah, completely different field. And now you teach, you educate, you speak.
00:03:26
Speaker
What else? So I teach all about habits. I do corporate speaking all around Australia and actually the world. I run courses for everyday people as well as habit coaches. I write programs for organizations that are interested in changing habits in their colleagues or their workplaces. I teach at Bond University, the medical students, about communications. It's totally different.
00:03:53
Speaker
I do all sorts of things, but since studying Habits about 10 years ago, I haven't shut up about it. It's totally my passion. I can see that. I love watching people live their purpose, and I feel lucky that I get to watch you do that.
00:04:09
Speaker
I was lucky enough to go to a master class that you held at Bond Uni a few weeks ago now on Habits, purely on Habits. And I walked out having learnt so, so much. And what I loved most about it was the way that you talk.
00:04:26
Speaker
so like backed with science and research, but in a way that's so easy to digest. I bloody love it. So this is basically what we are here for today. We're going to talk about habits and it's going to be just a very interesting conversation. So I'd love you to start with just giving us a little bit about
00:04:45
Speaker
habits and maybe the more common ones so people can kind of listen in and think, oh, I can relate to that. Yeah,
Understanding Triggers in Habits
00:04:51
Speaker
amazing. We are fully creatures of habits. About 70% of everything we do every day, everything we think and feel is completely habitual, which means we are in this autopilot state. So really common habits are things like scrolling too much on social media,
00:05:08
Speaker
binge drinking, eating when you're not hungry or snacking like emotional eating, staying up too late even though you said you wouldn't do that, pressing snooze on your alarm when you said that you'd go out for that run. Those are really common habits but it's also things like the way you react to certain things or how you set up your day. So I know that when I get into the office first thing I do is check my emails. It's a habit that I do
00:05:32
Speaker
and it's triggered by me just walking into my office. I'm like, cool, check emails. Even if I'm just about to go to a teaching session or I'm just about to do something else, I have a meeting, I will still check my emails. And it's like this safety thing. It's like, this is my habits. This is what I'm used to. So if you think of your day and what you normally do, it's everything from brushing your teeth in the morning to every sequence you have in the day is mostly habitual. Wow. And when you speak of
00:06:02
Speaker
the triggers, like you're saying you walk into your office, that is a trigger for you to then check your emails.
00:06:10
Speaker
You talked a lot about triggers in your Masterclass. Can you talk a bit more about that? Because it kind of blew my mind. I didn't realize that there was a link. Oh, yeah. Triggers are the thing that makes the biggest difference between what a behaviour is and what a habit is. So if you think of a habit, every habit has three key ingredients and it's the trigger, the habit itself, and then a reward.
00:06:33
Speaker
And I'll go into that in a moment, but let's just move quickly to behaviors. So behaviors are like conscious decisions. It's how do I get from A to B? It's what am I going to make for dinner tonight? It's what should I wear today? So it's these very deliberate, very conscious decisions that you kind of make in the moment.
00:06:49
Speaker
habits on the other hand are reactions to triggers and those triggers can be in our external environment like the place that you're in the time of day the social like your social setting or it can be internal it can be your emotional state your thought processes like
00:07:08
Speaker
So it can be external or internal. But basically, as soon as your brain recognises a habit trigger, it initiates a sequence, which is trigger equals habit. And so for me, for example, walking into my office triggers me to turn on my emails. For other people, it might be waking up triggers you to check your phone, or coming home triggers you to grab a snack in the afternoon. So that is how habits work. They're always triggered by something else. That's what makes them subconscious.
00:07:38
Speaker
Yeah, so it's the subconscious mind that is dictating what we do habitually. Exactly right. Bloody hell, the subconscious mind has so much control over us, hey. Oh, so powerful. And so just now when you're speaking, I'm actually trying to relate this to me. I used to bite my nails as a kid all of the time. I don't do it all of the time now. However,
00:08:00
Speaker
I do it when I'm writing. So is that the trigger? Exactly. So writing for you is a trigger. It triggers your habit of biting your nails and it's going to give you some kind of reward, Cleo. So it might like reduce your anxiety. It might fill in empty space. It might do something, but it's giving you something, which is why you do it at that time.
00:08:19
Speaker
whoa because of course in my mind now I'm like how can biting my nails reward me because they look awful after but you're right in when I'm biting them I'm I think actually thinking about now the reward might be concentration because when I'm biting my nails I'm like really biting down and concentrating on what I'm doing and that um what did you say the other trigger could be um
00:08:42
Speaker
It could be like filling in space or time or like giving you something to do, keeping your hands occupied. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. But every single habit we have, even the ones we don't want, give us some kind of reward. So I was doing some reading about worrying the other day because a lot of people come to me with worrying and worrying is a habit as well, like the way we
The Habit of Worrying
00:09:03
Speaker
think.
00:09:03
Speaker
Whoa, so okay, hang on a minute. I guess I just thought that habits were the more obvious ones like you stated before, you know, smoking or binge drinking, biting your nails, eating when you're not hungry. But so what habits can be like thoughts? Totally. Belief systems, thoughts, biases. I mean, we know we've seen research that racism can be habitual. Wow. Okay, talk more. Just talk. I just want to lose a teetot. I love this. You're so cute.
00:09:33
Speaker
So basically, so let's take worrying. What happens with worrying oftentimes is that you have some sort of anxiety and the anxiety will be the trigger. Worrying then becomes the habit because what worrying does is it gives us a false sense of security because we think if we're worrying, we're making a plan and a plan gives me control and control feels good.
00:09:56
Speaker
And if I've got control over something, then I don't have to be anxious about it anymore. And so we actually create the cycle of worrying in response to anxiety. And we think it's rewarding us by creating a plan, but it's not. It's keeping us in the cycle of negative thinking, keeping us in the cycle of further anxiety and then depression and not looking at the
00:10:18
Speaker
potential positive outcomes as well. So I was speaking to someone recently who said I'm really worried that I didn't pack the kids enough lunch today at school and I'm really worried that it might rain on our holiday which is like in two months time and I'm really worried about a potential natural disaster for this holiday home we bought and I'm like homegirl.
00:10:36
Speaker
what if the kids do have enough and what if it doesn't rain and what if there's no natural disaster or you know what what if the kids don't have enough lunch like they're gonna come home and make up for that by eating more in the afternoon like it's cool yeah and you can change it tomorrow but she didn't realize it was sort of really taking over her world this worrying and she thought it was giving her a reward which is planning but it wasn't
00:11:01
Speaker
So that's what our habits do. That's why we have them. Because our brain goes, there's a positive, there's like a positive cycle that happens. That's why you do the habits again and again, because your brain's like, oh, that felt good, or that makes me feel like I'm in control, or whatever it might be. So your brain reinforces it.
00:11:19
Speaker
I could listen to you talk all day. Seriously, this is so interesting. Okay. This is so exciting. You know what that reminds me of though, is that quote, worrying doesn't take away tomorrow's troubles. It takes away today's peace. And that's like exactly what you were just saying. It really does. But we get, I guess it's that thing too, where we hold on to that comfort zone of worrying or fear because we think it's going to protect us.
00:11:44
Speaker
but it's not protecting us, it's actually holding us back or creating anxiety, creating the worry. Yeah, exactly. So to unpack that and like say you're not a warrior. So another example really quickly could be like emotional eating. So you're feeling lonely or bored and so you grab a snack.
00:12:00
Speaker
And the thing is chewing and there are nutrients in food that do give us a dopamine hit. That does feel good. And so in the moment you're like, oh, I feel good. And your brain's like, I just got a hit of dopamine. This is awesome. So next time I'm feeling bored or lonely.
00:12:16
Speaker
I'm going to eat. And it actually moves you towards doing that habit. But what it's also doing is probably not helping your health goals. You're not hungry eating. So you are eating when your body doesn't need that food. And so then that creates negative outcomes as well. So the way to unpack either of these unwanted habits or any other unwanted habits is to actually bring in mindfulness, awareness, and kindness.
00:12:44
Speaker
This is very pass around the smile. Amazing. So what it is, is it's becoming completely aware non-judgmentally of what is it that you're getting from doing this behavior? Because your body, your brain is getting something out of it. And your brain's almost like tricked you into thinking it's a good thing. Because in some ways it is, but in many ways it's not. And so let's take worrying. So worrying makes you feel like you're in control. But does it actually change the outcome?
00:13:13
Speaker
How does it change your current state? Is it increasing or reducing your anxiety? Does it change your actions in the moment or later? All those things, probably not. And so when you get this list of pros and cons and you become aware of the negative impact that worrying is having on you,
00:13:31
Speaker
Then what happens is your brain starts to realize there's actually less reward than you initially anticipated or thought. And then it actually makes you less inclined to want to do that habit again. And then that kindness part is really just about
00:13:48
Speaker
understanding that we're all doing our best, right? We're all just doing the best we can with what we know. Whatever your survival mechanisms are, it's okay. That's what your brain told you you needed to get through whatever it is that you're going through. Whether it's because you're busy or the kids are sick, whatever it might be, right? And so kindness is just being non-judgmentally aware of what's going on, bringing in the kindness and going, okay,
00:14:15
Speaker
Thanks brain for telling me this is rewarding. Now I'm appreciating that it's probably not. And then it literally just subconsciously changes things in our brains. Wow. So it's really about actually identifying what it is that you are worrying about or what it is that your habits are.
00:14:33
Speaker
And then just being kind to yourself and like, this is, this is normal. This is okay. It's normal to have habits. It's natural. And thank you for showing me what I actually need to change. Yeah. So the important part is understanding what your triggers are. Yep. So say with worrying, it's often anxiety. Yep.
00:14:49
Speaker
the habit is worrying, and then what are you getting out of it? Why are you actually doing this over and over again? And it's understanding the rewards. That's when you start to think, okay, there are positives in me doing this, but there's also a whole lot of negatives. And the negatives are probably outweighing the positives. So this is not a habit I want to keep anymore. And that's how your brain just changes its mind about it being a good idea.
00:15:12
Speaker
Yeah. And what about some of the other kind of habits that aren't the more common ones, like maybe reacting?
00:15:21
Speaker
People or certain situations in the same way over and over again and you go home and you think why did I do that? Or why did I yell or why did I cry? Tell us about that a little bit. Yeah, so they're also common Our reactions are super common and it's exactly the same thing. So it's basically you've been triggered by something you reacting in the way that you're reacting and your brain is
00:15:45
Speaker
having some sort of reward out of it. So if it's crying, it's an emotional release. If it's anger, then you get to feel rage and that feels good sometimes. Although there are negatives as well, in the moment it feels good. And so your brain reinforces it. But doing the same thing, bringing that awareness and that kindness is exactly how you unpack those habits and break them away. Yeah. Oh my God. I love that so much. And
00:16:12
Speaker
Can we talk a little bit maybe about the misconceptions that people hold around habits? Because I know I walked into your master class and I was so excited and knew I was going to learn so much from you. But the one thing that I really thought I knew was that habits take 21, 30 days to form. I was like, I know this. Oh my God. And then as soon as I got in, I was like, oh, maybe, maybe I don't. I'm so glad you asked me this. It's literally like a hobby
Debunking Habit Formation Myths
00:16:39
Speaker
to break this myth.
00:16:43
Speaker
So they're what okay I'm gonna backtrack to tell you where this came from but this is the most common myth is that it takes 21 days to change a habit okay if I could stand on a world podium and say one thing only one it would be this it would be it does not take 21 days to change a habit so in the 1960s there was a surgeon who I
00:17:02
Speaker
was doing like facial surgery and amputations on people. And he determined that it took about three weeks or 21 days for people to get used to their different features, that their face started was looking different or that they didn't have their arm anymore for example. So then he was like okay so it takes three weeks for neuroplasticity to take place or changes in the brain to take place therefore it must take three weeks to change a habit.
00:17:28
Speaker
But it has been scientifically debunked at least a million times. Yet this myth has continued through the generations. It has, hasn't it? Big time. Yeah. And I hear it in motivational talks. I hear it in like inspirational quotes. I hear it every time I hear a personal trainer in the gym. And it's not true. So what it does, how habits work is there's a really wide range with how long it takes to change a habit.
00:17:57
Speaker
Because, okay, let's be straight here. If it honestly took 21 days to change a habit, we would all be like perfect habitual creatures. We would, yeah. Right? We would all meditate every day and have gratitude journals and exercise and have great sleep habits and eat really well. It doesn't take 21 days, if only.
00:18:15
Speaker
I know. I don't like being the bearer of the snow. No, but it's good. It's good to know. Because you've got to work hard. Totally. Yeah. Initially. Okay. So it can take anywhere from three weeks to up to a year to change a habit. And the average time is about 66 days. Okay. So I like to work with about 10 weeks. Yep.
00:18:37
Speaker
And when you've got that realistic mindset in place, you can aim better with, you know, it's not like you're going to get after three weeks and be like, it still doesn't feel habitual and then give up. It's like, no, no, I've still got another seven weeks to go. Yes. And so it can be more realistic. So there are certain things that can change how long it takes to change a habit. Firstly, how habitual you are as a person. Are you the kind of person who loves a Sunday routine or gets like,
00:19:05
Speaker
It doesn't like ambiguity. Are you the kind of person who eats the same breakfast every day? Are you a habitual person or not? Is it going to come naturally to you? Exactly. Also, how complex the behavior is that you're trying to change is going to have a big impact as to how long the habit takes to develop.
00:19:22
Speaker
So there's some research that showed, compared people that were asked to just drink a glass of water with breakfast, compared to doing 50 push-ups in the morning. And the people who were asked to just drink a glass of water, it took them about three weeks to develop that. But the people that had to do the push-ups took them about a year to develop. Because when you think of an actual habit, remember it's triggered, it feels subconscious, it's natural, it would feel odd if you didn't do it, it's automatic, it's mindless.
00:19:50
Speaker
So to actually get to that state with a habit takes a long time if it's a really complex behavior. So you want to break down your goals into just digestible, easy to do things that you can do every day without it being too much of a slog. And so that will help you develop the habit quicker. Okay, well how do we know then
00:20:12
Speaker
a goal to change a habit that might be too easy or then on the other end, maybe too overwhelming. Like how do we make that decision? Yeah, so I guess get your goal and it could be like a big goal. Yeah. And then say you're breaking it down, right? If it's too easy, you're probably going to feel somewhat apathetic.
00:20:30
Speaker
you're gonna be like, I could just do this tomorrow, or you know what, I can achieve this whole goal overnight, and you might procrastinate on doing it. But then if it's too big, we get overwhelmed, and overwhelm creates paralysis, and then we don't wanna do it, because we're too scared to start, or we're too scared to go out and actually attempt it in the first place. And so if you're getting that feeling, then your goal's probably too big. I say that you wanna find the sweet spot of comfort,
00:20:58
Speaker
and it's where your goals aren't too big and they're not too small. And so it takes playing around. It takes just like, one of the really good ways to measure it is using something called a habit tracker. And we can put a link to this in the show notes if you want. But a habit tracker is essentially just every time you do a habit, you tick off that you've done it. And so a good way to measure, I guess, how big or small your goals are if you're actually doing them, is have a look back over the last week or two weeks. How often have you been doing your habits?
00:21:28
Speaker
Has it been consistent? If it hasn't, then the goal needs to change a little bit. But if it has, you're spot on with how big or small your goal is. Yeah, that's interesting. I like that because I feel like if we're trying to change a habit and we're not doing it or we're not achieving it, we just think,
Setting Achievable Goals
00:21:48
Speaker
You know, I can't do it. It's it's not right But actually if you just change some miniscule little things it could all align completely I think we think oh, I'm such a failure. I haven't done it again I said I wouldn't I and I didn't like I just can't amount to this or I don't have what it takes and then we get really like down on ourselves but it could actually be that the goal is not right for you or that you don't have the resources or capacity to
00:22:14
Speaker
to do that particular goal at that point in time and that's okay. Just change the goalposts, make it work for you. The kindness is coming in. Be kind. Be kind to yourself. Treat yourself like you had a friend, I guess, right? Because if you had a friend that was trying to, I don't know, quit smoking, for example,
00:22:31
Speaker
You're going to encourage them and, you know, say beautiful, kind, supportive words to them. But if you're doing it yourself, why is it all of a sudden okay to talk so down to ourselves? And so true. I love the there's you may have heard of it through like plants or water, but when they get like two buckets of water and they say to one bucket of water, you know,
00:22:53
Speaker
I love you, you're amazing, you're good enough, you're capable, and they freeze it. And then to the other bucket of water they say, you suck, you're not good enough, you can't do this. You can't change this habit. And they freeze it, and then they look under a microscope, and every single time the bucket of water that had the positive projections placed on it is frozen in this intricate diamond-like pattern. So amazing. And then the negative bucket of water is frozen in this smashed, cracked pattern.
00:23:20
Speaker
And we're filled with 70% water. So like what are we doing to ourselves when we're saying I'm not good enough, I can't do this. I look crap today. That's so true. You know self-efficacy or the belief in oneself is the number one predictor of success.
00:23:35
Speaker
And I love, Dina, that you say this, because you're a doctor, you're Dr. Cleo, and the amount of research and study that you have done is so huge. And also, your research has gained a lot of popularity on media from different researchers, hasn't it? Like all over the world. But you're sitting here saying that belief in yourself is vital. It's the number one predictor of success. Dr. Cleo said it here, guys. She said it here, like, whoa, do we should put that on the teeter?
00:24:05
Speaker
We should. We should get a tattoo on it. Let's talk more about belief and belief in oneself. Basically, if you set a goal for yourself or you have a desire and you don't inherently believe that you have the ability to achieve that, you're not going to. And it sounds so like
00:24:28
Speaker
like clinical or it sounds very like, Oh, are you sure? But it is. I mean, research shows again and again that you have to believe in your own ability to achieve something in order for you to even come remotely close to achieving it. And that's the beauty of
00:24:43
Speaker
you know, changing the goal posts and not having this all or nothing mentality. One of my least favorite quotes in the world is like, go hard or go home. It's like, no, because going hard might mean for somebody that the goal's too big or it's not achievable. Or what if you're just a bit tired today? Like you better off still doing like a 15 minute walk than the run that you planned. Make your habits like micro habits. They're so small, you can't say no to them. You know that you have the capacity to do them.
00:25:12
Speaker
and get that momentum and consistency going. And that's how big changes are made through small steps. Yes. And on what you said too, I think that go hard and go home. I agree. I don't like that. Everyone's go hard is different. You know, when I was in a conversation with a bunch of people,
00:25:31
Speaker
And everyone was kind of getting to this, it was getting a bit confrontational about who works harder than who. And yeah, it was yuck. It was like some people that I hardly know. I don't even know how we got into the conversation. But I was trying to say, everyone's
00:25:49
Speaker
hardest work is different. So true. Like you might work seven days a week and that's really hard but someone else might work three days a week and that's really hard for them. Oh yeah I love that you have this insight you know it's amazing. You know my personal story about two years ago I went through a really traumatic experience and just before that happened I was running two companies I was working as the head of student well-being at Bond
00:26:18
Speaker
I was like powwow-ing my life away, right? Powwow-go. Yeah. And then this traumatic event occurred. And for me to tell you that I could just get up and brush my teeth, I couldn't do that on a consistent basis. I couldn't even like get out and go to my letterbox.
00:26:36
Speaker
But it was literally the fear of leaving my home. And to me, going hard was like, girlfriend, you're going to go and get the letter, get the mail from the letterbox today. And that was to me like the most that I could do on some days. And how amazing that you did that that day. Yeah, exactly. And taking that small step and thinking that this is enough for me today allowed you to take more small steps and look at you now.
00:26:59
Speaker
Yeah, back to powwow. Yeah, back to powwow. That is very inspirational. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. And don't you think that there was a little stage, I feel like it may have been just before COVID hit, where girl boss and hustle was very trendy. Yeah. And being so productive and we compare ourselves constantly to these girls on social, well not just girls, girls and guys, anyone, on social media that are constantly moving forward. But I think
00:27:29
Speaker
I don't know if it was COVID that taught us or if times have just changed but it's good to slow down and you can benefit so much from actually stopping. Like I've noticed if I obviously work for myself and if I get to two o'clock instead of
00:27:44
Speaker
pushing forward at 50%. If I just take 20 minutes of just sitting and staring or going and playing with the dog or even having a cheeky nap, I know that not everyone can do that. I'm lucky to work from home. I then can move forward at 100%. But there's just a lot of energy around this like, yeah, girl, boss, go, be the best you can and nothing else. It's so true. And I always like to think it's quality over quantity.
00:28:11
Speaker
If you want to stop your day at two, girl, stop your day at 2pm. Like no one's there going, no, you have to work an eight hour day if you don't have to. But I always think whatever goal you want to achieve, there's going to be some sort of cost or sacrifice for it. And if you want to be girl boss, like that's fine. Like you do you, but what is that cost?
00:28:29
Speaker
Does it cost you sleep? Does it cost you peace? Does it cost you your relationships? Does it cost your health? What are the sacrifices you're making to achieve that and are they worth it? For some people they will be, but for most people they probably won't be. And I think that's where that awareness comes in again. Not comparing ourselves to anyone but thinking what do I value? How do I want my life to look?
00:28:53
Speaker
And I have to say, yeah, I think COVID really changed the way that we saw things. I think a lot of people left the corporate world and started working more for themselves and doing different jobs or working part time. And if you have had the privilege to do that, that's awesome.
00:29:11
Speaker
And I definitely went through a stage where I was like, OK, I can actually earn less, work less and be way happier. So let's just do that. And I did. And it's been the best. Do less attract more. That's what Gabby Bernstein says. And I love it. And that's what you're doing. Yeah, it's true. There's this, I guess, negative connotation around you have to work hard to get to where you want to be. And of course, of course there is an element of working hard. You need to be working toward what you want. You need to be putting in the effort and the time and the love and the energy.
00:29:42
Speaker
But in saying that, like you said, there are more important things like family and friends or whatever it is to you. So yeah, it's nice that that kind of pressure is slowly melting away. And I think the world is getting a little bit more understanding. Totally. Yeah, which is great. It's great news. So with all of this new information I have, can your daily routines, are they
00:30:05
Speaker
habits? I guess they're habitual. Absolutely. From the minute you wake up, you are acting out your habits. Think of even just your morning routine. You get up, you might brush your teeth, go to the bathroom, shower, get dressed, make a coffee, have breakfast. It's all a sequence of events and they're actually one habit that's feeding off another. We see it as morning routine, but it's actually all these little habits that are just happening in a sequence.
00:30:29
Speaker
Yeah. But also the way that how many hours we spend working versus how many hours we spend on leisure time is a habit. It's our mentality around how much we should be working as habitual. Whether you come home and you exercise or you have a glass of wine is going to be mostly habitual. Wow. So our days are very, very sequentially and like habitual.
00:30:55
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess those, like, for example, you say, you know, you come home from work, you've had a stressful day and you might pour yourself a glass of wine, you might really enjoy that habit. So that's, I guess, essentially, of course, why it's so hard to break because we enjoy our habits most of the time. Is there a habit that you have had that you've successfully broken? Yeah, I'll break it down for us. Many, many.
00:31:20
Speaker
I made a decision that I really value sleep. I'm like the biggest sleep guru. And for me, I realized that for me to get better sleep, I had to make some sacrifices and that included screen time before bed.
00:31:35
Speaker
But it also included me not being overly stimulated throughout the day. And what I mean by that is not being on social media too much or not watching episode after episode of something on Netflix, because that kept my mind so engaged and activated that I would go to bed and I just wouldn't be fully rested. And that's like a me thing.
00:31:57
Speaker
I don't look at my phone pretty much all afternoon. That's so amazing. That's really amazing. Oh, thank you. And I also don't look at my phone the first hour that I wake up. So what I do is I keep my phone on airplane mode overnight and I have it charging in a different room to my room.
00:32:15
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it's charging in the bathroom. So basically, if my alarm goes off, then I have to get out of bed to go turn it off. And it's still on airplane mode and I won't turn it off airplane mode for the first hour of my day. And it has been one of the best things I've ever done. Wow. So there there are so many little habits I feel in this that people would normally have that you've broken by having your phone in another room for a start, because then you actually have to get up when your alarm goes off. Yeah. But also,
00:32:43
Speaker
having your phone in a different room so you can't touch it and go on it before you go to sleep or scroll. There's no temptation, yeah. Whoa, so are there any other elements in how you broke this habit, say, during the day when you're at work? Well, I can check social media while I'm at work. I'm okay with doing that. But it's funny, because I haven't used social media as much as I used to for so long now, I don't even enjoy it. That's great. Yeah.
00:33:11
Speaker
I mean, on one hand, it's really good because I'm just not sucked into it anymore because I'm a bit bored by it now. But on the other hand, you know, being a researcher, it's really important for me to still put my research out into the social media space because that's how people consume it.
Impact of Social Media on Health
00:33:27
Speaker
And so you'll find, like, if you follow me, I literally will post every now and then. I'm not that good at posting all the time, but I'm OK with that. And if that means I have less followers or I get less work, that's OK because the sacrifice
00:33:39
Speaker
that I would have to make to be on it every day isn't worth my sense of peace. Wow. You've just put things into perspective for me. I mean do you though have any advice for me and for the other maybe small business owners where we predominantly our work is on social media so we are having to be on it
00:34:00
Speaker
all the time. For example, last night I got a DM from a customer who was wanting to place a really big order and I felt like if I didn't reply in that minute, she probably wouldn't have placed the order. It's hard, isn't it? It's so hard. I mean, you can then look at the social media as your work.
00:34:20
Speaker
But then change the way that you are using it. So are you more of an output person or an input person? Are you scrolling mindlessly or are you putting content out there and then responding to your followers? Because if you're doing the ladder, that's perfectly fine. It's just like being on emails. But if you're getting sucked into the scrolling through aimlessly and mindlessly for hours, then that's what I think you should
00:34:47
Speaker
Just like rethink your values and if that aligns with it one of the other things that I did that really helped me with this is I had a look at how much Screen time impacts sleep like objectively because you know, I'm I like facts and figures and data. Yeah
00:35:06
Speaker
And just the idea of social, you know, reducing social media is going to improve your sleep wasn't enough. I needed to like quantify how much. Of course you did. But when I had those facts, it put everything into perspective and I was like, whoa, it is so not worth it. Like nothing is worth the impact it will have on my sleep. It's the same with like drinking alcohol. I mean, I love a glass of wine, but I know that alcohol can impact your REM sleep.
00:35:36
Speaker
Therefore, it impacts how much rest that your body's really getting. Is that REM sleep? Yeah, REM sleep. The deep. Yeah, the deep, like deep, restorative sleep. And so I put this to the test. I actually bought a Fitbit. Because, you know, there's all this research, but I had to test it myself. Yeah, of course. Because I'm some kind of elite human that would like bypass the alcohol rules. Yeah. And then you get a spreadsheet off. Yeah. Literally, that's what I did. I got a spreadsheet. But I had like the nights where I was drinking.
00:36:05
Speaker
I would have a look at my REM sleep and then the nights where I was and I do the same. And it makes such a significant difference. And also on something called heart rate variability, which is one of the most popular, I guess, markers for long-term health. And I see that if you go a month without drinking, your heart rate variability increases five-fold.
00:36:31
Speaker
That's huge. And so although I'll still have a drink occasionally or like socially, I won't have the glass of wine most evenings like I used to because I've made a judgment call that it's just not worth it for me. I love how you're talking about this in that there are more important things and it does just really put things into perspective and I think
00:36:56
Speaker
I kind of look at that when I do my four week courses. We look at that through like a balance exercise where I'm trying to encourage my community to say no to things without the attached feeling of guilt. And I feel like the only way that you can do that is to realize where you want your energy spent. So if it is.
00:37:17
Speaker
I need to be spending more time, more present time with my family or I need to spend more time sleeping, getting a good night's sleep. Well, it means that I can say no to going to that party on Friday night and I don't have to feel guilty. So yeah, what is it worth it? Oh, exactly. I love that. And then what are you really seeking in the moment? So say you are aimlessly scrolling through social media and you don't want to be doing it.
00:37:41
Speaker
I would stop and go, okay, what is triggering me? Where am I? It could be the place you're in, the time of day, how you're feeling. And then you can say, for example, for a lot of people, it could be a desire for connection. Yeah.
00:37:54
Speaker
Is social media actually giving you connection? Are you actually getting that feeling from it? Because the evidence shows that it's actually doing the opposite of that. It's making you feel more disconnected. And so if you're seeking connection in that moment, how can you actually get it? And that might be to text a friend or call a friend or play with your pet or whatever it might be.
00:38:14
Speaker
And you'll find that sense of fulfillment, which is what you're looking for, will actually be there rather than like hours spent trying to find it on your Instagram feed when it's not going to be there. That is so true. So essentially you're saying that when we do have that moment of, it's kind of like when we're not stimulated for five seconds, we open our phone, even if there is a good TV show playing and I'm guilty of it, opening my phone, distracting yourself really with something that you know will make you feel good.
00:38:43
Speaker
I think we've become so used to being this overstimulated, doing more than one thing at once. It's really bad for our brains, actually. And this is one of the reasons why I broke my habit of using social media the way that I was using, is because I noticed that I was constantly needing stimulation. The more stimulated I was being, the more I needed it. And when I stopped social media for a while, oh my gosh, here's like a confession.
00:39:10
Speaker
I started playing things like Tetris and like all these like fun games on my phone but I was like oh look at me so hi Marty I don't really use social media very much Nick Minna I'm playing Tetris like seven hours a day
00:39:24
Speaker
You're like very totally the other way. The next minute you have a spreadsheet on how do I stop Tetris. How do I stop Tetris? But it's essentially like gaming is still stimulation. And so, you know, when I became real with myself, I realized I was doing the same thing. Yeah, interesting. And so calm down. It's like, say you go into the bathroom, right? A lot of people use their phone when they're on the toilet, which is PS, extremely unhygienic. But anyway.
00:39:51
Speaker
Okay, here's like being super open. Feel free to like literally cut this out if you're not down with it, it's fine. I will now go into the bathroom and be like, all right, this is a really great moment to just practice mindfulness. No, I actually do the same. Amazing. I do the same. We're buddies. We're fist bumping guys.
00:40:08
Speaker
Or when I'm in the shower, I would often be like, all right, what am I going to wear? What am I doing today? What time do I move? And it's like, no, my shower is now a time for me to practice mindfulness. I'm going to notice the water on my body and just slow your mind down. The magic in it is when your mind is slowed down, that's when your learning centers in your brain are the most activated. Yeah. I feel that because I feel when I finally quiet my mind and actually do nothing, that's when I get creative inspiration.
00:40:34
Speaker
Love it. Exactly. So it actually, it helps our productivity so much. 100%. And it's just literally, it's just become a habit. Overstimulation has become a habit and you can unwind it by doing all the things we spoke about. Bring in mindfulness and awareness and kindness. Remove the temptation out of your space. If having your phone on you is too much of a temptation, which it is for most people because it's such an easy hit of dopamine and stimulation,
00:41:00
Speaker
Put it away. Lock it down. There are literally boxes you can buy that lock your phone for a certain period of time. You cannot undo it unless you smash them. That's really getting rid of that trigger. Totally. But for me and most people, out of sight, out of mind. If it's not on your pocket or in your bag, it's very unlikely that you're going to get up, walk to the other side of the house, open the drawer, grab your phone, just to quickly look at social media. Yes, exactly. You're not going to do that. So just get it out of your
Self-Control and Stress Management
00:41:26
Speaker
space. Oh, wow.
00:41:28
Speaker
OK, I have one last question before we get to our cards, and I learned this from your masterclass, which was around self-control and the energy it takes. I was quite mind blown. So can you talk a little bit about that? Oftentimes when we're starting a new behavior or making some kind of change, it's going to require some self-control. Now, the beauty of habits is that habits don't need self-control. Like you don't need self-control to tie your shoelace or put your seatbelt on in the car or brush your teeth in the morning.
00:41:56
Speaker
the things that just happen because they're part of your normal routine, they're habitual, they're mindless, they're subconscious. But the things that you need self-control for are those things that you might do occasionally, or the things that aren't yet automatic or habitual in your life. And the thing with self-control is the bigger the thing that you're trying to change, the more self-control you're going to need.
00:42:20
Speaker
So let's say you're starting a crash diet. Don't do that, people. It's a terrible idea. But say you are doing a crash diet or you're doing a really intense fitness program at the gym or something. You're going to need a lot of self-control to do those things every day.
00:42:36
Speaker
The thing with self-control is that it is a fleeting resource. It is not something that we have this unlimited amount of every day, if only. Again, if we did, we would be these perfect beings that did all the things we said we would do. But if you think of self-control like a bank account,
00:42:57
Speaker
and life's stresses so things like like hunger, feeling negative emotions like stress or anxiety or like having an altercation with someone or loneliness whatever it might be um what else piles of emails or traffic or screaming kids or financial stress like whatever it might be all these things deploy
00:43:18
Speaker
Complete a sense of self-control and the way to restore it is actually by resting it. It's by feeling positive emotions it's by doing things that you know that you can achieve like just small little actions and
00:43:35
Speaker
So what happens if you think of it like a bank account is life's demands are like debiting your bank account, your self-controlled bank account, little by little. And then that rest is recrediting it again. So when you go to sleep at night and you wake up in the morning, so you've had a good rest, you'll probably have some more self-control the next day. But we can't depend on our self-control long term.
00:43:57
Speaker
to change our behaviors because we don't have unlimited amounts of it. It also changes from day to day. So say like something happens in your life that's stressful, you're gonna probably have less capacity during that time compared to another time in your life. So does that mean say if you wake up and something quite negative happens and I guess does that mean your self-control is kind of you're using it up and let's say you are on a crash diet which again Gina said not to do it and she's a dietitian.
00:44:27
Speaker
When you get to the end of the day and you're supposed to have an apple, not the hamburger or whatever, it's likely that you'll have the hamburger because your self-control has been used. Exactly. And then we blame ourselves and think we're failures, but we're not. We're just trying to use a resource that we don't have enough of. And so the idea is really just the importance is then to create a life around healthy habits. Because if you can create habits of things and you don't need your self-control,
00:44:52
Speaker
And you can't have a crash diet habit because it's not sustainable. So come home to yourself and think of things like, how can I achieve this goal in small, easy, sustainable steps that I can do consistently every day?
00:45:09
Speaker
So refreshing. Yeah. Okay. We're going to get onto the last section. Okay. So we have got to the last segment of this podcast. I have enjoyed this so much, by the way. Thank you so much. Thank you. So I am going to shuffle my cards and pull out a card and just trust that that card is what we need to talk about. Whether the listeners need to hear it or whether it's for you or for me, there will be
00:45:34
Speaker
a reason. Okay, so we got the card one step at a time. Taking one step at a time is more than enough. I am moving forward at the perfect pace and enjoying every minute. Oh, I love this card. Do you want to talk about this topic for a little bit? I would love to, yes.
00:45:52
Speaker
Habits or actually achieving anything doesn't happen in a linear process. And what I mean by that is you're not going to get up every day and practice this new habit that you have planned. Or if you're trying to break a habit, there are going to be times where you still do your unwanted habit, even though you don't want to and you planned not to. Habit formation or change happens in a process of two steps forward, one step back.
00:46:17
Speaker
Having those steps. I see how this relates. I was like, where are we now? You know, setbacks are a normal part of life. They don't make you a failure. They make you human. And the difference between people that succeed and people that fall off the wagon is how quickly you get up and basically how quickly you get up again. And just taking that step forward again, rather than being defeated by your setback, just take that small step forward.
00:46:46
Speaker
I'll give you an example. I had the flu like four years ago, pre-COVID people. I just started powerlifting at this gym. I don't know why. My body's not made for powerlifting, but look, we went there just for a fun time.
00:47:01
Speaker
And I was trying to create a habit of going to training at least three days a week. And palating is pretty heavy sport, heavy literally and metaphorically. And there's quite a lot on your body. And because I was sick, I didn't want to be lifting at the time, so I wanted my body to rest. But because I wanted to keep the habit
00:47:23
Speaker
going to the gym what I would do is I'd still get up I would get dressed I'd get in my car I'd drive to the gym and I'd be like okay I'm here and then I would drive straight because I wanted to create a habit of getting to the gym yeah and so when I felt better I was already in the habit of going to the gym I didn't have to take all those steps to get there still
00:47:44
Speaker
That is very powerful and I guess that is benefiting you in other ways as well. Not just keeping and achieving that habit of going to the gym but also getting up at a good time. Eating probably a healthy breakfast because you know you've got to get out of the house soon and that you're going to, well you weren't going to be exercising but in your mind you still were.
00:48:04
Speaker
That's really powerful. Yeah. So just do whatever step you can to get you into the direction that you're aiming for. No matter how small that step is. That is completely enough. It is all about just changing the neural pathways in your brain to move you towards your goal. It's all about consistency, not intensity. It's not about how big your step is. It's just about taking a step in the right direction.
Dr. Cleo's Courses and Upcoming Book
00:48:29
Speaker
And the accumulative effect of that is what's going to help you reach your goals.
00:48:35
Speaker
Oh, wow. Speechless. Oh, thank you so much, Gina. This has honestly been so fun and so incredible. You are so insightful and so beautiful inside and out. You're the best. Thank you for coming on. And can you please tell my listeners and my community where they can find you and maybe a little bit about your courses that you do as well? Thank you.
00:48:57
Speaker
course. It's been so awesome being here, by the way. So you can find me. My website is DrGenaClio.com. It's the same as my Instagram handle, DrGenaClio. I run two different courses at the moment. So one course is for everyday people who are just interested in understanding their own habits and how to form new habits and break old habits. It's really comprehensive. We talk about all things self-control, how that doesn't work.
00:49:24
Speaker
why we do the things that we do and how to really change it long term. The other course that I run is called the habit practitioner course and that's for coaches and educators or healthcare professionals who are interested in being habit coaches to help their clients. And that is like the most comprehensive course on the market. We go through all things neuroscience and
00:49:47
Speaker
like psychology and physiology and all sorts of things but it's really fun you don't need any prior education to do that course but it is a lot more comprehensive. I've also got a book that's coming out in January 2024. That's actually coming around fast because I feel like when you told me about it that was a long time ago and it felt so long but now it's coming around. My manuscript was due
00:50:11
Speaker
any minute now. I cannot wait. And really that is a lot of the content that I know that I've put into this book so that people can read it and just understand themselves and be able to change their behavior and their mindsets from what they'll get from this book. So look out for that because it's really like my love and joy has gone into that book. You are living your purpose.
00:50:32
Speaker
Everything's just fine. Oh, thank you so much Gina and I think that we need to do a part two at some stage as well. That sounds fun. Count me in. All right. Thank you. Bye guys.