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With Andy Steiger
64 Plays4 years ago
This time on PEP Talk, Andy and Kristi speak with Andy Steiger from Apologetics Canada. Drawing especially from Paul's letter to the Colossians, Andy unpacks the importance of how we see God and how we see ourselves as human beings. From this flows our view of human purpose, relationships and community - which can be so attractive when we share them with others.
Andy Steiger is the founder and president of Apologetics Canada, an organisation dedicated to helping churches across Canada better understand and engage today’s culture. Most recently, he wrote the book Reclaimed: How Jesus Restores Our Humanity in a Dehumanized World. This book was preceded by The Human Project video series. In 2018, The Human Project debuted at film festivals around the world and won a number of awards including Best Short Film and People's Choice. He also created and hosted The Thinking Series and is the author of Thinking? Answering Life’s Five Biggest Questions. Andy speaks on these topics internationally at universities, conferences, churches, prisons and coffee shops. He is currently a PhD candidate at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland. Andy is originally from Portland, Oregon and currently lives in Abbotsford, British Columbia with his wife, Nancy, and their boys. See more at andysteiger.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Listener Support
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, thanks for listening. We are a listener supported podcast and would love to have your support. Please take a moment to visit solas-cpc.org and click on the donate button. Thanks so much and I hope you enjoy today's episode.
Introducing Hosts and Guest
00:00:25
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister, the director of the Sola Centre for Public Christianity based in Scotland. And as ever, I'm joined by my wonderful and energetic co-host, Kristy Bear, all the way from the other end of the country from London. Kristy, how are you doing down there today? One introduction. I am so well, Andy. Do you want to know why? Why are you so well, mate?
00:00:49
Speaker
Because our next guest, while we aren't talking about this, his PhD work and focus is also on the same PhD kind of work and focus that I'm focusing on. Isn't that cool? That is very cool. And just listeners, to be reassured, I have warned Kristy if she starts talking about her PhD with our guest, who I'll introduce in a moment, I'm cutting her off.
00:01:06
Speaker
So, on to our guests. I'm hugely excited, actually. I'm always hugely excited. I'm very excited that we've got joining us all the way from British Columbia in Canada, Andy Steiger. Andy, welcome to pep talk. Great to be with you. Thanks for having me on the show.
00:01:22
Speaker
Well, it's especially a pleasure, Andy, because you and I are going quite a way back. I forget when we first met. I think it was 2010 was when we first met in Vancouver. I seem to recall. Oh, I remember because my wife was with us. If you remember, we were in Granville Island in Vancouver, and my wife said that you and I could never hang out again because we wouldn't stop talking. So this podcast could be a problem. It could be a long podcast. Well, Andy is the director of Apologetics Canada.
00:01:52
Speaker
and you can find them on online, apologeticscanada.com. And yeah, Andy and I, you and I got to know each other when I was with RZIM, for American listeners in Canada for six years. And it was a delight watching the ministry that you built on the work you did, Andy.
Discussion of 'Reclaimed' Book
00:02:09
Speaker
But you know, so many things, but one of the things that brings you to the show today is you have finished a book, right? You've got a book coming out pretty soon. What's the title? And in a very brief nutshell, what's it all about?
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, I have a book coming out in September with Zondervan called Reclaimed, How Jesus Restores Our Humanity in a Dehumanized World. So this is a project that I've been working on for a number of years. It started with a film project I did called
00:02:36
Speaker
the human project and deals with four major questions that are essential to our humanity. What is human? What's the value of human life? What leads to human flourishing and how should humans live? So the way that the book is structured, there's eight chapters.
00:02:54
Speaker
So each question gets two chapters. So one chapter will address the question such as what is human from the perspective of our secular culture that has removed God. So where does that lead us? And then the next chapter would say, okay, what happens when we put God back into the equation, if you will? And ultimately the book is just talking about how Jesus humanizes and how important our belief in God is, how important our relationship with Jesus is.
00:03:25
Speaker
I'm so looking forward to this book, Andy. The thing that kind of stood out to me as you were reading out the title in some of the chapter headings is how do you think the world actually dehumanizes us? So like before we get onto how Jesus humanizes us, you mentioned the secular culture without God leaves us in pretty dark places. What are those places? How does the world dehumanize us?
00:03:48
Speaker
Well, in the book, one of the things that I do is I use a lot of stories of just modern day examples. So the book begins with modern day examples of dehumanization, but then it also has in the chapters historical examples. So it's one of those things that we see has been a part of our history for a long time.
00:04:10
Speaker
humans are really good at not seeing each other's humanity. And the challenge is both historically and presently is that when we don't see each other correctly, we won't treat each other correctly. And so this was something that was really profound for me in my research was to see how important it is that we see one another correctly. And particularly when you look at our humanity from the Christian perspective,
00:04:41
Speaker
This is one of the things I love about being a Christian is something I say quite a bit, that I love my faith because it instructs me in ways that I don't find anywhere else, particularly in this subject, how to actually see a human being.
00:04:54
Speaker
Yeah, what I find interesting is you answered that, Andy, and as I read the book, and as you and I have actually talked around this one before, it's long intrigued me that if, in a sense, if you throw God out, you don't just lose God, right? You lose human beings in the process or as a side effect without some degree, right?
00:05:14
Speaker
Yes, and that's ultimately what I argue on each of those questions is that when you lose sight of God, you will lose sight of your own humanity, you'll lose sight of others'
Impact of Losing Sight of God
00:05:26
Speaker
humanity. So I think it's really interesting that when Jesus is asked the big questions, and he's asked repeatedly a Jewish way of asking, you know, what's the meaning of life?
00:05:36
Speaker
And when you're reading the Gospels, you see this over and over again. They'll say, you know, Jesus, what's the greatest commandment? What's the most important thing to know? And Jesus answers repeatedly the same way. You know, love God, love people. He answers with the Shema from Deuteronomy chapter six. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbors yourself. So it's interesting to me, you know, that it's constantly pushing back to this idea, make sure that you love God or see God correctly.
00:06:03
Speaker
And then how that informs the way we view ourselves. You also see this, by the way, with the Ten Commandments. The first four are all about your view of God. And I used to think, you know, that I was kind of weird. I'm like, does God have like an identity crisis going on or what? Like, why is it so important that I see God correctly? But the more you begin to think about that, you realize, well, if I'm making God's image, then the greater my view of God, the greater my view of humanity or myself.
00:06:31
Speaker
So it's absolutely essential that we see God correctly if we're going to see ourselves correctly as image bearers. That's so profound. I mean, how do you connect those two points together, Andy, in that how do we see God correctly so that we can see ourselves correctly? Is there a process or a way of doing that that you encourage readers?
00:06:54
Speaker
Well, that's such an important question with regards to how do we see God correctly. And one of the things that I think is so interesting, particularly as you read the New Testament, is Paul keeps pointing to Jesus. And you see this in Colossians 1.15, where Paul says the sun is the image of the invisible God. So in other words, if you want to see what God looks like, look at Jesus. And you see this with the book of Hebrews as well.
00:07:20
Speaker
as the author of Hebrews begins the book by saying that Jesus is an exact copy of God. He's a photocopy. If you want to see what God looks like, look to Jesus. And so I think that this is an important aspect of our faith is to constantly have that in mind that if I want to get it
00:07:43
Speaker
clear view of what God's like. I need to look to Jesus. And you know, in Colossians chapter 1 verse 28 is one of my favorite verses. Christia, I think really hits this point and has been something that I have really thought a lot about as a Christian. As Paul says this,
00:08:04
Speaker
He says, he, speaking of Jesus, is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. The Greek word here is from the root word telos or purpose.
00:08:20
Speaker
Paul's saying, listen, in Jesus, we can fulfill the purpose that we were created for. So his desire is that people would come to fulfill the purpose that they were created for, that they could experience what it is to be fully human, if you will. And again, what Jesus continually references with regards to what does that mean,
00:08:45
Speaker
is relationship. You've been created to be in relationship with God and relationship with one another. That's what it means to be perfect in Christ or to fulfill the purpose relationship.
00:08:57
Speaker
Do you know what I think is really helpful in all of this, Andy, is that I know sometimes I think Christians struggle with a little bit of evangelism because we leap straight in with our very secular friends to trying to talk about God. And there's such a gap. It could be a heart at first. But if we come up with what does it mean to be human question?
00:09:15
Speaker
and ask our friends questions like, you know, what do you think the purpose of life is? What do you think the meaning of it all is? What do you think a human being is? Those questions I find will often lead you quite naturally to the God question whereby it's then much easier to say, well, as a Christian, you know, I believe in God and this informs these other things. Sometimes I wonder if we approach these things the wrong way around. What does it mean to be human question is actually a really powerful evangelistic key. What do you think?
00:09:42
Speaker
I absolutely agree with you. And in fact, I would encourage listeners to read the book of Colossians because ultimately Paul gives a presentation of the gospel through our humanity.
Evangelism Through Human Questions
00:09:56
Speaker
And I think particularly in our culture today, this is a profound way to share the gospel. And I think it works in two ways, Andy. One, I think the evangelism needs to flow from our own identity. So me understanding who I am and what I have been created for.
00:10:17
Speaker
And so then if I understand how profound my relationship with God and my relationship with other people is to my humanity, it starts to inform what I invest my time into, for example. Because it's always interesting when people have money and they're thinking about, okay, how do I make more money or how do I make a good investment with my money, the time that we've been given.
00:10:42
Speaker
And what's the best investment of our time, the most valuable resource, the most valuable thing we have? Jesus is saying, well, relationship, investing your time into God, investing your time into people. And that means then,
00:10:57
Speaker
that people are not projects. We don't love God and love people for the purpose of who can I share the gospel to, because they're my next project to make into a Christian or whatever. But you start to realize, no, this is who I am as a human being, is to love God and to love people. And the gospel naturally follows from all that.
00:11:19
Speaker
One of the things that I found really striking about what you're saying is this call to humanisation in Jesus. I'm just wondering, what does it look like for a human being to be restored?
00:11:36
Speaker
in Jesus. And so, how do we offer something that's really unique to our friends and family through our humanity and the way in which we live and the way in which we are? How does he restore us and change us? And so, what is the distinctive that others are seeing in us? Well, to go back to Colossians in chapter 3 verse 10, we see Paul saying,
00:12:00
Speaker
Well, actually starting in verse 9, he says, don't lie to each other since you've taken off the old self with his practices and put on the new self. And he says, which is being renewed in the knowledge, in the image of its creator. And so what we see then is when we realize the significance of our relationship with God,
00:12:22
Speaker
We begin to, and we're looking to Jesus to, you know, what does God look like? What we begin to see then is the life of Christ and how we are to emulate the life of Christ and how his response is to be our response. And what do we see is Jesus' response? Well, he always sees people's humanity. And one of the things that you find is that humanization leads to compassion.
00:12:51
Speaker
So from the reverse, when we don't see each other correctly, it leads to dehumanization in which we will mistreat each other in horrendous ways, as we've seen historically. Yet the opposite is also true that when we see one another correctly, it leads to compassion and we will seek to care and love for one another.
00:13:15
Speaker
And just as a quick example, I won't go too deep into it, but again, listeners, I'd encourage you to look at the parable of the Good Samaritan.
Illustration of Humanity Through Parables
00:13:23
Speaker
Because when you look at how it all gets set up, Jesus, again, is being asked that important question. What's the meaning of life kind of question? And he answers again, love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbors yourself.
00:13:38
Speaker
But then somebody comes into that conversation wanting to justify themselves, we're told, and asks, who's my neighbor? And he's not asking in the sense of, you know, who's my neighbor? I want to incorporate as many people as I can. He's asking in the sense of, I want to exclude who I can.
00:13:56
Speaker
And so then you have Jesus giving him a story in which the often dehumanized person in their time, which is the Samaritans, who are referred to as half-breeds, the Samaritan becomes the hero of the story. Because the Samaritan sees the humanity of this Jew, and it leads to compassion. And Jesus is ultimately saying to them, go and do likewise.
00:14:25
Speaker
You know, we see this in storytelling, by the way, don't we, where the villain is always dehumanized, which will lead to their destruction, and the hero is always humanized, right, which leads to them being praised. And Jesus just does the opposite of who you think would be the villain, the Samaritan becomes the hero of the story. And really the question then becomes for us, and particularly in our own evangelism, is if Jesus was to tell us the story of the good Samaritan,
00:14:54
Speaker
Who would he make the hero of the story? Who are those people in our lives that we try to exclude and Jesus is trying to move us to have compassion for? That's really powerful stuff, Andy. As we move into our last
Importance of Community in Humanity's Purpose
00:15:12
Speaker
few minutes. You know, one thing that strikes me as we have this conversations, obviously, you and I and, and Christy have, you know, thought about these things with sort of we've we've messed around with the academic stuff as well as other bits and pieces. But what I'm also one of the things I've always found compelling about you
00:15:29
Speaker
you have this ability to engage the world of ideas, but also to bring it down to the very practical. So for somebody who's sitting there thinking, I wouldn't even know who Michael Polanyi was, and you know, I'm not even sure what a PhD is, and so on and so forth, which is the vast majority of us, how do we begin using some of these themes in our everyday evangelism? How some of the ways that you sort of taken this, so does it were, you know, made the rubber hit the road, and use this in conversations with normal people?
00:15:57
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for that question. It's such an important question. Here's a couple of the ways that it's impacting me and that I would encourage people. First is, if I really grasp hold of this idea that I am made for relationship with God and people, I think we all have to ask ourselves the question, do I live as though that's true?
00:16:18
Speaker
Is my relationship with God and my relationship with people, is that a priority in my life? And this is one of the reasons why I would argue that church is so important. There are so many people who don't understand what churches, and when they don't understand what churches, they'll ask silly questions like, you know, does a Christian need to go to church and those sorts of things.
00:16:39
Speaker
But if you begin to appreciate the fact that you were created for community and that relationship is essential to who you are as a child of God, then you begin to realize that I need church and church needs me. You know, there are people at church that
00:16:56
Speaker
that need you know relationship with with me and I need relationship with them and that this is a key aspect of what it means to be a human being it starts to change the way that you live so now community becomes a priority in your life and if I were just to say as well where I have seen some of the most opportunity for the gospel and most fruit in the gospel is in my community group again
00:17:26
Speaker
my wife and I leading a community group is absolutely essential to us because again, I think that being in community is what we've been called to and it's what we are and what we need. And so in our community group, which we've led for many, many years,
00:17:43
Speaker
I could tell you story after story of people that we've invited into our home, we've invited them into community, right? Into relationship and have come to know and love Jesus. And I think in our culture today, which is a lonely culture, I don't know if you guys saw this, but last year the UK appointed a minister of loneliness.
00:18:03
Speaker
There is such a need for community. I think it is the greatest evangelism tool today to invite people into the gospel is invite them into relationship. Not just with not just with God, right? It's God and people.
00:18:19
Speaker
And it's just such an easy thing to do as well, isn't it, Andy? And it's often overlooked, feeling like we have to be able to have all the right answer at the right time. And actually, one of the things that I've loved about Shafer's work is when he talks about love relationship being the ultimate apologetic. And I've really appreciated how you've just spoken to us about community. It's such a great place to leave it. I feel like we could chat for hours, not least about this, but also about your PhD topic. Again, we won't talk about that.
00:18:48
Speaker
Thank you so, so much for your time, Andy. We've absolutely loved talking with you. Thanks for having me on the show. Thank you again, Andy Bannister, and thank you for listening. We look forward to being back with you in a couple of weeks' time. Take care. Bye.