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Voice of the Mountains: Be Gentle with Failure with guest Sasha DiGiulian
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On the latest episode of Voice of the Mountains, Steve is joined by one of the most accomplished young climbers on the planet, Sasha DiGiulian. Sasha fell in love with the sport at her older brother's birthday party at a climbing gym when she was six years old. Within a year, she was competing and by the time she graduated from high school, she was red, pointing 5.14. She continued climbing while a student at Columbia University and rattled off several U.S. and Pan-American sport climbing championships, adding a world championship gold medal in the all around in 2011. Sasha has dozens of first free ascents around the world to her name and however impressive Sasha is on the rock, she may be even more impressive off of it. She's a filmmaker, an activist and an author. Like so many climbers, Sasha has firsthand knowledge of the sport's inherent dangers and tragedies, which she bravely shares. And like too many women in our sport, Sasha has had unfortunate firsthand experiences with some of the chauvinistic gatekeeping, which sadly is still prevalent in climbing as well as in our wider culture. Steve and Sasha explore Sasha’s unique role in the climbing world and the dualities she has discovered throughout her career.
If you'd like to learn more about Voice of the Mountains, check out the website: https://uphillathlete.com/voiceofthemountains/
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Transcript
Sasha de Julian's sponsorship and criticisms
00:00:03
Speaker
She is enough. She's too scared to climb outside. She's too heavy to climb hard. She's only sponsored because she's cute and blonde. These are all things that have been said about today's guest. A guest that throughout her 25 years of climbing has sparked derision with every competition win. Insults with every first female ascent and doubt with every groundbreaking accomplishment.
00:00:29
Speaker
And most painfully, she has been horrifically bullied by climbers. By climbers. Our own community. Massaging and climbing is something that has surfaced before on Voice of the Mountains. And in this case, it wasn't the bully, but the fact that the bully felt supported by his community, our community, that rang the alarm bells for me.
Bullying incident with Joe Kinder
00:00:50
Speaker
It was 2018, and after and during eight years of online bullying, culminating in a photo of her face, photoshopped onto an obese woman in a bikini, Sasha de Julian exposed Joe Kinder.
00:01:05
Speaker
Frankly, I've never met a climber that inspires so much disdain because Sasha Dejulian is one hell of a good rock climber. And in my estimation, there are few sports as tough as rock climbing. The kind of climbing where waiting the first holds causes searing pain in your fingertips and the shoes you wear are so painfully tight you can only stand to have them on for a few minutes at a time.
Sasha's multifaceted career
00:01:29
Speaker
What Sasha shares with us today is her humanity. And core to the mission of Voice of the Mountains is to show that the best climbers in the world are as human, as emotional, as vulnerable as you are and as I am.
00:01:47
Speaker
Yes, Sasha gets scared. And yes, Sasha is strong. And yes, Sasha is sponsored by the biggest brands in climbing. And she owns her own nutrition company and she's a United Nations Goodwill Ambassador. You see the world from your point of view. We all do.
00:02:07
Speaker
The default setting for humans is to be egocentric. That's totally normal. But when a petite blonde climbs better than 99.99% of the rest of climbers, it can bring out the worst of that egocentrism. Protecting our individual egos is what enables the rise of sometimes ugly behavior, including abhorrent bullying.
00:02:33
Speaker
Listen carefully today and you will hear in her voice how much she cares and how hard she works. Listen to her tone and you will feel her utter humanity.
00:02:45
Speaker
And if you can park your ego long enough to see that your belief in the talent of others is your ego's way of excusing your lack of prioritization of your own goals, you will feel her obsession, her drive, and her focus. Humanity is fallible. That much Sasha's story clearly shows us.
00:03:10
Speaker
But obsession, more often than not, has at its source the coyote of modern times, the devil on your shoulders, the inner critic. The inner critic is so important because it is that voice whose whispers are the source of insecurity, the need for approval, and the relentless bombardment of the message that she is not enough.
00:03:37
Speaker
My challenge to you today is to become Sasha, to listen to her as if you are Sasha. Give up your worldview and see the world as Sasha sees it. And try, please try, to wrap her and yourself in the soft blanket of understanding, appreciation, and whisper to her that she is enough.
00:04:05
Speaker
From uphill athlete, I am founder and CEO, Steve House, and this is Voice of the Mountains, where we explore the philosophy and humanity of mountain sports. This is where we will ask ourselves who we are, what we learn, and who we want to become out of our adventures. I am your host, Steve House.
00:04:24
Speaker
Today, I'm joined by one of the most accomplished young c climbers on the planet, Sasha de Julian. Sasha fell in love with the sport at her older brother's birthday party at a climbing gym when she was six years old. Within a year, she was competing, and by the time she graduated from high school, she was red-pointing 514s.
00:04:43
Speaker
She continued climbing while a student at Columbia University and rattled off several US and Pan American sport climbing championships, adding a world championship gold medal in the all around in 2011. Sasha has dozens of first free ascents around the world to her name.
00:05:01
Speaker
And however impressive Sasha is on the rock, she may be even more impressive off of it. She's a filmmaker, an activist, and an author. Last year, she published her memoir, Taking the Lead, Hanging on, Letting Go, and Conquering Life's Hardest Climes, which is a poignant, candid, and beautifully written look into some of the challenges she has faced, including a grueling series of surgeries to reconstruct her hip so it's threatened to take climbing away from her.
00:05:31
Speaker
Most recently, she was featured in a really beautifully done documentary put out by Red Bull Media House called Here to Climb.
Experiences of danger and chauvinism
00:05:39
Speaker
And that film touches on so many of the interesting topics that I want to explore with Sasha today. And like so many climbers, Sasha has firsthand knowledge of the sport's inherent danger and tragedies, which she bravely shares.
00:05:54
Speaker
And, like too many women in our sport, Sasha has had unfortunate first-hand experiences with some of the chauvinistic gatekeeping which sadly is still prevalent in climbing as well as in our wider culture. Sasha has navigated these trials and challenges with both grace and self-awareness.
00:06:12
Speaker
Being that I'm a climber who's becoming a bit long in the tooth, I am relieved knowing that with Sasha, the future of our sport is in strong and introspective hands. so Thank you for being here, Sasha. I'm super grateful for you coming on today. Hey, thanks so much for having me on today. Well, before we get started, I just want to be really honest about why I invited you to be on the Voice of the Mountains.
00:06:36
Speaker
One, you've experienced a lot, but I've just long admired from afar how you've managed yourself through all kinds of situations. And I can't wait to ask you some of these questions. And here are some of the ways you've processed some of these things.
00:06:51
Speaker
The second one is that you're a lot younger than I am. You're roughly 20 years younger than I am. And that and I think how you came into the sport and being a woman in the sport gives you perspectives and viewpoints that frankly I just simply can't or don't see. How does that land on you when you hear about those things?
00:07:11
Speaker
Yeah, no, that sounds great. I mean, I've always really looked up to you and your career. So um I'm really honored just to chat. And it's natural that there's changes that happen in climbing over even five-year spans. So 20 years, that makes sense that there would be differences in experience as well.
00:07:32
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely.
Embracing fear and failure in climbing
00:07:34
Speaker
The theme of our conversation today is be gentle with your failures, experience the fear, feel the euphoria. I'm going to come back to these ideas with you throughout the show and dig into the relationship that we've all had between these three experiences of failure, fear, and euphoria. And so anytime something comes up for you around those ideas, that's the signal to sort of dig in.
00:08:01
Speaker
I wanted to ask you because I think you're one of the first generations of climbers that came into the sport through the climbing gym and not through outdoor climbing. How do you think that that has shaped your perception of the sport differently than maybe my generation where we learned, you know, outside? Yeah, I think that first of all, me getting involved in climbing through a climbing gym shows the wide possibility of climbing's growth and flags why it has really grown over the last 10, 20 years. I guess I've been climbing for 25 years now. But the fact that I could grow up in a city and come from a family that knew nothing about climbing, I didn't even know that it was a competitive sport.
00:08:57
Speaker
yet find my way in this sport and making a profession out of it is, I think, just a really cool indicator of the climbing gym industry's growth and capacity to really build this sport beyond what it traditionally existed as, which was like you knew about the outdoors. You had some sort of background. um There was someone to take you.
00:09:26
Speaker
And so the way in which climbing gyms make climbing possible for kids like me who came from urban environments is pretty exciting. And I think it's also why we've seen that trajectory of so many more climbers start getting into it because it's approachable. It's like you don't have to have this wide swath of knowledge in order to participate and then you can learn on the go.
00:09:53
Speaker
Yeah, and it's continuing to just explode. I think I read that there's like 300 new climbing gyms opening in North America just this year. Like every town bigger than 10,000 people now is getting a climbing gym, which just takes it literally almost to everyone, right?
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah, when I was like six, seven, eight, my mom would drive me up and down the East Coast going to climbing gym competitions. like I grew up in the DC area, so from Rhode Island, Boston, down to like Richmond. Climbing gyms were so off the beaten path in many cases, yet I was just in San Francisco for work. And I just walked down the street to like a super busy urban area and there's a climbing gym. You just go in off the busy street. It's right there. It's very easy to get to. And so therein even just that change from like warehouses off the side streets to like right center fixtures, I think, enables climbing to have more awareness and more participation as well.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. Like I remember being to some of the early climbing gyms and they were in sketchy neighborhoods. Like they there were places you were not so sure you wanted to be at night sometimes.
Climbing in the Olympics
00:11:16
Speaker
You know, I know you wrote about it in your book, but since this is, you know, almost the 2024 Olympics, and by the time we air this, the Olympics will have happened. Can you give me your thoughts about having sport climbing in the Olympic games and how it's being contested in the games?
00:11:31
Speaker
I'm first of all, i so excited yeah to see that climbing is just occupying that, that global stage. That's so important in the world of sport. And, and it's just a real signal of, of the growth that climbing is going through.
00:11:49
Speaker
I worked with the IFSC as an athlete representative after my competition era. And my job was really to help advocate and make sense of climbing into broader organizations like the IOC, which is the International Olympic Committee. And that was during the time 2012 to 2016.
00:12:10
Speaker
that climbing was just like making its entrance into the debut of the sport existing. and And that announcement happened in Rio at the Olympics in 2016. I actually got this privilege to to like go and um be on air kind of talking about climbing and what it meant to be in the Olympics, but also what it is as a sport. It's contested and especially wise for Tokyo because Unlike in traditional competition format for climbing historical routes, speed climbing, lead climbing, and bouldering to start, we're all um kind of just like bunched into one. And you've got speed climbers competing against boulderers, and that's like totally not normal for competition climbing. Now going in, I guess what we've seen in Paris is that split of speed climbing,
00:13:10
Speaker
separate from lead climbing and bouldering which is a much more natural way to showcase the sport. In an ideal world, we have a three-metal discipline um sport where there's sport climbing, bouldering, and speed. But what it means for the sport is more youth participation, more government support which is huge,
00:13:32
Speaker
more recognition in general, more possibility for young climbers to sign big endorsement deals that enables them to do what they love more and broader and and and really push this ethos that I think is incredible about climbing, which is how much you can grow on a personal level and what climbing creates for this connection for the outdoors because The indoors is a great bridge to the outdoors. That's how I got into climbing outside was through starting in competition. And I do think that climbing is one of those sports that you create this really genuine connection for why you care about the environment. Because these places that climbing takes you beyond the competition space are really majestic and sublime and and you really notice the changes firsthand.
00:14:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. And I love that idea that we're getting more people outside. I think that there's, you know, the traditionalist and I'd say a lot of people of my generation and older who would be negative and they'd be saying, Oh, you know, now the crags are all too crowded because there's all these people climbing and, you know, all that kind of, you know, you're smiling because, you know, like this, this narrative that sometimes push without seeing that, like, Hey, we're, you know, if you love climbing,
00:14:56
Speaker
What does it say about you that you don't want to share something that you love with other people? If this is such a wonderful thing and you love it so much, then what right do you have to keep it to yourself and keep other people out of it? It's such a microcosm for life, right? Like who was the first one here and who gives who the jurisdiction to say this is mine. Like our planet is shared by everyone. We should want everyone to enjoy it.
00:15:23
Speaker
um but yeah I'm smiling because it's it's such a thing that climbing goes through. I know that in other industries like in the surf world, the locals only and and kind of gatekeeping waves and stuff like that is prevalent too. But I do think that climbing is unique because there are so many new areas to go and develop and explore.
00:15:47
Speaker
And so when I hear people complain about like you know the Red River Gorge being overcrowded now, I'm like, yeah, of course it is. like As it should be. Of course it is. Correct. But there's also so many incredible places that I've gone even this year that I didn't see a single person. And yeah, maybe I had to bring a drill and bolt some new lines and stuff like that. But what a cool experience to then be able to see like a economy like in Kalimnos. I think it's a really great example of just an economy be built because of the legacy that climbers have built there and brought so much international tourism to. I do think that climbing is this great like vehicle for eco tourism growth as well and helping areas like get new traction,
00:16:43
Speaker
off of former industry that maybe wasn't as sustainable.
Diversity and resistance in climbing
00:16:47
Speaker
One of the things that I think has been really inspiring for me to watch your career has been what you've done, not just as a climber, but also as a woman. And this is something that you've you've written about. And in your book, ill I'll read a passage you wrote. As a woman in climbing, I occupy two worlds, one defined by strength and grit, the other by beauty and traditional ideas of femininity. It's something I still struggle with.
00:17:16
Speaker
And yet you write that, but then, and yet you're part of your big part, I think of all of the making all the good things happen that you're just talking about, whether it's creating a model for eco tourism in a remote island in Greece that has no, probably almost no other industry to, you know, just make helping get the.
00:17:39
Speaker
climbing as a sport and back into the Olympics, all of these things. And so when I read this, I guess I have to challenge you a little bit and say, like, if you feel like you're occupying these two worlds, do you also feel like you're occupying them? Is it a cooccupation? Is it a peaceful cooccupation where you're comfortable in both? And yeah, maybe they're slightly different.
00:18:03
Speaker
value sets, but you certainly, at least from the outside, seem to be comfortable in that and leverage it into these other things that are much bigger than yourself, frankly. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question because um my entire career, I kind of was cutting against some sort of grain that I didn't want to be cutting against. But for some reason, I caused a lot of friction. And I think it's because I am just different. And now, luckily, that's more common in climbing. like We see more people come from
00:18:42
Speaker
a myriad of different backgrounds which i think we can only keep increasing and making the sport more approachable for everyone but my entire existence in climate felt like an outsider and like even.
00:18:58
Speaker
I would do climbs that be recorded and um super you know cutting edge and then have people throw rocks at it and like almost try and find that diminishing aspect to bring down my success. And I don't know if that's because I'm a woman in the sport that maybe didn't look the traditional part of like what climbing had seen.
00:19:26
Speaker
Or like how in the world could someone climb a 514 with nails painted pink? Why would that detract me from doing this climbs? But I think a lot of that resistance came from the fear of the unknown and maybe the fear of the sport changing from a way that the, as you mentioned, like some of the traditional gatekeeping side of the sport felt challenged and like they could be edged out of their traditional space and ownership. But the beauty of it is like, um I can climb and not infringe on someone else's ability to climb. Like just cause I'm over here doing my thing, it shouldn't be like,
00:20:15
Speaker
Oh no, yeah you're changing climbing for me. And I think that it's something that I am always trying to get to the bottom of because I'd love to feel like I fit in or have my place. So to answer that question, I think maybe It's an answer of like not necessarily fitting in and either but trying to really lean into who I genuinely and just naturally am and creating that space for the next person that's like me or feels like me to feel like they have that model to look up to us like.
00:20:54
Speaker
it's okay that I am not one certain way because humans are full of dimension and um have the capacity to be more than just one thing. And I think that that's like the beauty of humanity too. So yeah, I think that as ah as a culture within climbing, we can all do a better job of just like being a little bit more welcoming to differences, knowing that it's not a scarcity model mindset. like just because I introduce a new corporate sponsor to the world of climbing doesn't mean that that's all negative. like That creates an industry for the future generations of climbers to be actually saving money and like putting away in investments and making a lucrative career for the future. And then hopefully the next generation continues to build like a snowball effect.
00:21:50
Speaker
rather than because this person over here has this, that means like that it's all taken and no one else has that opportunity. You started this response by saying that you're different and you've always cut against the grain. Can you tell me a little story from your childhood or your past like that would would illustrate that? like How did either you feel different or how did how were you perceived as different?
Balancing education and climbing
00:22:18
Speaker
Well, I do know like I climbed my first by 14 D when I was 18 years old. And it was during this year that I had taken this gap between and graduating from high school. I did early decision um application to Columbia University and I decided to defer my acceptance for a year and just focus on climbing, which I was like, oh wow, you can climb really hard when you just focus on that. But education was always a big part of you know just my upbringing. and my My dad, for instance, didn't really connect with climbing. like He didn't really understand the sport, but he understood like I needed to go to an Ivy League education for whatever reason. um and When I made that decision that I'd go back to school and like balance climbing and education,
00:23:10
Speaker
I was met with so many friends, like such a surprising amount of people that were so shocked that I would throw away my climbing career for university. And at the time, like even one of my primary sponsors, Breadbol, who I've been working with since I was 17, I was the first active athlete that they had who was in the university at the same time.
00:23:35
Speaker
And I think that that was just like a shift in industry and a shift in the way that we saw that you can like do school while also upholding this role as a professional athlete, though that's not to say like I didn't.
00:23:51
Speaker
you know have ups and downs like no midterms it was always so hard said pal studying with um maintaining like a prominent stance and like climbing really hard um and and to your point of like gentle with failures i definitely had to learn to be a little bit more gentle with myself over this is a really busy crazy time of life let me be a little bit more gentle over my like performance expectations.
00:24:21
Speaker
yeah That's a very mature thing to learn at that young age, I would say. like I didn't learn that until I was double that age, probably. I learned it either, um only in hindsight, 2020. I want to ask you a question. that you know I'm sure you get asked all the time what advice you would give to younger women climbers trying to find their way in climbing.
00:24:46
Speaker
But I would actually like to ask the question a different way. I would like to know what advice you would give to men. Young men, but also older men like me who look back at the chauvinism in our sport and are saying, I don't want to be like that. i And are saying that we don't want it to be like that anymore. What can we do, whether it's my generation or the younger generation, as men to support women in climbing in a healthy way?
00:25:12
Speaker
I'm so glad that you asked that because I think that I'm a staunch feminist and that's under the pretense that feminists just believe that women and men should have equal opportunities. And I i think that men are so vital for society and so vital in climbing. I've done so many incredible things within our sport.
00:25:36
Speaker
And so i think that the conversation needs to have this is like what can i say to younger boys to like involvement and i think that's first of all i'm leaving women and like embracing who they are and not questioning them.
00:25:53
Speaker
um means like going out and respecting women as individuals within the sport just as much as you treat another male climber like if you go climbing on a multi-pitch with a woman like but be trading leads like why would one person be the only one who's leading or like,
00:26:11
Speaker
one person take on that role if i was even at the climbing gym the other day this is kind of tangential but related and like someone started yelling beta at me when i was like flashing a v8 and i'm like i'm on the wall and like this person like telling me what to do this is so bizarre so i think that like not assuming that you need to coach a woman at the wall it's just like very basic is just treat a woman like you treat a man and a similar way of like just another person i think that that's really important um because we're all individuals trying to do our best in climbing is such a unique sports can i.
00:26:53
Speaker
what my article that I just published in the New York Times is about is just that the uniqueness of women's capacity to perform just as much as men have that capacity to perform is a really unique quality of the sport.
00:27:11
Speaker
Yeah, and I would say not just climbing, but any ultra-endurance events. You know, you're watching this in ultra-running, yeah you're seeing this in alpinism, where it's kind of like the longer and the more endurance-y the event, the more sort of starts to become even in terms of the differences, the performance differences between genders. But one thing i I want to, before it escapes me, reiterate what you said is,
00:27:38
Speaker
that you want men to just treat women how they would like to be treated. And it kind of comes back to the Golden Rule all the time, right? I think that we need more male feminists, especially in our in our sport. So it's been hard. I can say speaking from my experience and speaking as someone who has a very strong mother in my life and who raised a feminist boy that made it very clear that, you know, her profession was just as important as my father's profession. And, you know, just the whole way I was raised around this, it's been strange. And I'd say one of the things, and this comes back to this core idea of justice, like there's so many times in life where you see something done to someone, like, for example, a man treating ah a woman woman without
00:28:32
Speaker
You know, the appropriate respect or shouting beta when she doesn't ask for it or something like that. And then not saying something because it doesn't affect you, right? Like we were able to kind of turn away and pretend it didn't happen. But I think what we need is more people walking up to the.
00:28:49
Speaker
And just saying, hey, you know, and Will Gad, when I talked to him, he had a great way of saying this, like, not calling people out, but calling them in, like, just saying, like, why is it that you feel like this climber needs beta right now? Because I didn't hear her ask for that, and it looks like she's doing pretty good. Maybe she wants to actually try to flash it.
00:29:08
Speaker
and and actually kind of stepping up and being a little more proactive in all these little ways because it adds up a lot, I think, in just the the whole vibe around the community. I don't need to tell my horror stories of having witnessed things and in my my years. We can do a lot better. Yeah, no, I think i think that um the importance of it is like,
00:29:33
Speaker
It's not just you know a genderized thing. I think that the golden rule, as you noted, is just what the most important take-home is. it's like Just treat people as equal and respect them.
00:29:47
Speaker
and lead with good intentions. To your point, though, on like men standing up for women, in times that I've gone through that have been extremely difficult in the community, the men that have come to me and and checked in, it means a lot when someone says, like Hey, you have my support because it's like that extension of climbing not being genderized. It's just like an extension of like, we're here for fostering a good community that treats people well. And so if someone can can extend that arm and like really reinforce that ethos, regardless of your gender, I think that that goes a long way. You hear that guys, that's what we're going to do.
00:30:35
Speaker
I think a lot of people when they look at someone like you who's been very successful and is also because of that success oftentimes very public they think that you don't have feelings or you aren't human or that you don't matter or you're just sort of this inanimate target that they can you know throw darts at and you know they don't where they forget that you're actually a person that that feels you know pain and and disappointment and anger and all these other other things. and When we as a community do that, we take down so much more than just that person that we're targeting. We take down like the whole the whole thing we're kind of trying to construct here as a community. And this is what this podcast is actually about. like This is where I think mountain sports have such an incredible opportunity. And I'm kind of using the broad paintbrush of running and and mountaineering and rock climbing and skiing.
00:31:29
Speaker
I think they have so much to teach the rest of humanity because by their nature they're not necessarily competitive we've been talking about competition climbing but that's sort of this tiny niche within all of these sports and you know skiing has competition etc but All of these sports are all about this process of growth and trying to get better and trying to find the best performance that you have in the thing that you're trying to do. And it's not actually about the performance. It's about who you become to execute that performance. And that's what life is, right? and and
00:32:07
Speaker
so much of, at least North American and American kind of society, it focuses on competition and who's the best and who has the most money or who has the first place, whatever. And we forget that it's really the process behind those achievements and who we become behind those achievements that is so important. And if we're Taking potshots at someone like you who's, because you're a shiny target, that destroys the whole ecosystem. That allows all of us to become better versions of ourselves. And so we we really, it's really important we don't do that. Totally. Sorry, that's my, i get off my soapbox.
00:32:50
Speaker
you know it but I think that setting the table of like what's the energy that we're putting into this community is important. and so There's no reason to inject it with negativity. and Of course, that's like a rose-colored, glasses-optimistic way of looking at it, but there's no reason to not strive for that. so Yeah, I completely agree.
00:33:12
Speaker
i think people who have not done hard rock climbing, and I've never done roots on the grades that you've done, but I've attempted hard rock climbs, and I've tried my hardest at hard rock climbing, and people who haven't done that don't realize how freaking painful it is.
00:33:30
Speaker
it It hurts your fingers. It hurts your toes. The movements are just awkward and difficult. I mean, that's all these things are what make the hard climbing hard. And doing hard shit means that you're going to experience failure. And I know in this day and age, it's a bit of a trope to sort of embrace the failure and all that.
00:33:51
Speaker
But there is a difference between not trying hard, failing and trying your hardest and then being gentle with that failure. And those are two very, very different experiences. And when I came up in climbing, nobody talked about being gentle with failure.
00:34:10
Speaker
Failure was the big F. It was really bad. And if you fell off, or if you didn't Red Point, or you didn't get to your summit, or whatever, like you had slink away. like it was It was a terrible up thing. and And we are, I think, changing the discussion around this a little bit. But I think that you must have so many experiences where you tried really hard and failed at something. Can you tell us a story from one of those?
00:34:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think the irony of climbing right like if you're pushing yourself to your limit, then you're falling all the time and you're constantly dealing with that big F of like not red pointing or even just a trip going totally sideways. So I guess like one of the um one of the trips that is in here to climb in the documentary is this trip that was a total failure on the surface. it was like we I um couldn't actually get, and speaking of support of women and climbing, I i couldn't get the support rallied around financial support conducting this like all-female led expedition to this remote island in Africa called Soutome.
Lessons from a challenging expedition
00:35:28
Speaker
And so I was like, well, I have savings. I'll just finance this project because I think it's really cool and and all of that. So that already like kind of heightened this amount of risk that I'm putting on the table because I was like, okay, I'm going to pay for um everyone to get there and pay them to create the
00:35:48
Speaker
photography and the video content we're hopefully gonna produce and then everything went sideways we went and we arrived and like the rock was way worse quality than we thought it was going to be the team dynamic was starting to splinter over just like risk assessment and what everyone felt comfortable with it was really um challenging circumstances to stay And we're just camping at the base of this jungle he goes like a volcanic plug for over three weeks in the rain there's no relief there's just lots of dirt and heat and humidity and poisonous.
00:36:30
Speaker
spiders and poisonous snakes surrounding you. So like there's never a moment where you're like, this is like beyond type 2 fun. like This is actually really enjoyable. But all of those factors aside, what ended up happening was like we did not succeed on what I really wanted to do. it's like um to free this 514 multi-pitch climb that existed there. and like It became very obvious that that wasn't going to happen pretty early in. It was a mixed climb, so all of the gear placements were horrendous because it was just a waterfall. like By the time that I was making more advancing on the climb,
00:37:12
Speaker
I would climb without a chalk bag because I was like my chalk bag will just fill up as like a watering pouch with like this white paste. I'm better off just not using chalk but after that and we like like don't succeed on this climb and whatever we come back.
00:37:30
Speaker
I have this like and immense amount of um like grief almost because leading up to a climb, you kind of do plan out everything. like It's your focus. It's what you're logistically planning for, um physically training for, mentally prepared for, and then it's this loss. And I feel that grief actually after success I'm times two but it's like this empty space that is no longer there and then you're like oh wow it's over like the end this was the verdict and so how you navigate past it i think it's really interesting cuz to your point on this like gentle with failures i think i could really be better at that i'm a horrible credit of myself.
00:38:17
Speaker
And the words that we do tell ourselves like do permeate into like our psyche as we navigate the world and so i think that like that something that i'm working on but it's similar to. grief In the way that i do with losing people that i love or animals that i love.
00:38:39
Speaker
I try and allow myself like this space to mourn for it. And so maybe this is dramatic if it's your sport climb and you're like failing to red point it. But coming back from a trip like in Africa, like I'm going to allow myself to be sad. And this is all on a spectrum of grief. like Losing a parent or a spouse is obviously going to be very different. But it still needs this time of reflection and consideration of like What that space really is and then there's like that time to start moving forward and it's like what do you fill that space with moving forward that enables you to at least move through what sinking sand can feel like like.
00:39:25
Speaker
when i've lost people that i love or when i like how to failure on something that i really cared about you can kind of fall into this cycle of apathy almost or at least i have of just like feeling down and and really sad about it.
00:39:40
Speaker
Um, and so that's when like I need something to look forward to, to kind of bring me out of that despair. And so it obviously is like pertinent to like a case by case basis. But for me, that's always been kind of the way that I can move forward is and taking from like a physical failure like this versus like a loss of someone. It's like you can analyze what went wrong, what ways I could have been better at ah There was tension because I thought there is a way to still like navigate the weather and kind of had and this optimistic perspective like staying for longer to wait out the weather. But it was hard to stay there and and be there for a longer period of time. And that was not what my partners wanted. So I think that like a friction of like team dynamic as well
00:40:33
Speaker
I learned from that trip like I'm going to know my climbing partners very well before I go on a trip with them because when we leave and this I carried into Ryu with Brett and Matilda and was like let's be vividly clear about what we each see as a success and like we have different intentions and different expectations so like let's all be aware of them going in so that when things go sideways we're actually talking we have like a base to go back to of like okay so like matilda you really wanted this to happen and this is like how can we get back to that base and find a way in which we can all be i satisfied with the end result. um And that may, you know, on Ryu it looked like it was it was different ways like dealing with Matilda and I both sent the crux pitch of the climb and I know that Brett went into the climb feeling really like
00:41:37
Speaker
uncertain whether she would climb her hardest red point on this trip, ah which was a single pitch and and then felt like she was quite close to it. And so dealing with that failure of not sending it, but us still communicating that we were like a team and we all did it together. I think that there's just like always friction points of learning from trips to where I can only control myself in the way that I react to it. So it's always going to lend its way to like,
00:42:06
Speaker
lessons to reflect on in that process of dealing with like what acute failures or massive failures look like. a It's interesting that you brought this up, and if any of you listening go watch Here to Climb, I made some notes about this part of the film because, you know, I could just feel your mind and your your sort of life force, if you will. You just, you wanted that objective so bad. And, you know, I lived in that for years. i Like, I totally recognize myself in you in that part of the film.
00:42:44
Speaker
You know, I think that that's part of the experience. People who are really great at something, that's how they show up. They're super intense. They want it really bad. It doesn't always make sense to people who don't have that same internal experience.
00:43:03
Speaker
And, you know, we're outsiders in some ways and everyone is different, right? Like I've been on the other side of that too, where I've been on trips where my partner wanted it more badly than I did. It can go different ways. so But, you know, was I projecting or did that how it was that how it felt to you in Africa? Yeah, I'm like smiling because I'm like, wow, you see me. Yeah, I totally saw you. It's really hard. It's really hard to feel like held back.
00:43:27
Speaker
By a partner and that you're on a trip with and then it's like at the end of the day to your point of like what what humans do we become off the climb and where does that matter it's like I quickly realized I can't push someone's limits of risk tolerance. like That's totally inhumane to do. yeah And God forbid anything happens if you did. like ah But to the point of just like the theme of of growth and and women entering the climbing space and stuff like that is my experiences up till that point were always with male climbers on big wall climbs
00:44:09
Speaker
that had actually like greater spheres of what they are willing to risk than I did. So it was almost like a switch where I had never been held back by a variable like that. It was always like push it to the limit and maybe naively like me not knowing even some of the risks that I was taking because I was with climbing partners who may have been like,
00:44:34
Speaker
Willing to hang it out there a little bit more than I even knew would be a good idea to um But all to say like I was learning in that way like oh, wow I could I could be willing to take on more risk than this person and like how do I deal with that? Well, so seeing like this aspiration kind of just like wither away into not possible for this time So Sasha, where does that come from? Where does that that drive that that I saw in you? What is what is at the root of that? I think I'm just curious of like what is possible. And if I think that something's possible, it's really a full commitment to find out, I guess. And me being in control of like how I can go about achieving a climbing goal
00:45:28
Speaker
Normally climbing, and if you know if you're like with a partner, then you you both need to be in that alignment. But my background came from single pitch climbing and and competition climbing. And like if you want to go and like climb a really hard route, you just need a train. You need to mentally be prepared. And that's kind of like an easy recipe. So I think translating that into other aspects of even growing sun bars,
00:45:55
Speaker
um i'm like I know that this is like an idea that we need and I see it and visualize the success of it, but then how do you get from like A to Z? And so much of that is like in my new show of learning and trying things.
00:46:14
Speaker
um but I think that once you set your mind on something and you like mentally believe that it's possible, there shouldn't actually be many variables to hold you back because we're, I mean, the possibility of what we can achieve is pretty infinite if we just navigate it correctly. Obviously, like, I fail all the time.
00:46:35
Speaker
so Yeah. and And I mean, I think this is just on failure. You know, I remember a famous quote from Rafael Nadal, the tennis player. He said, like, you know, you lose 50% of the points. He's talking about tennis. But if you're talking about hard sport climbing, I mean, you lose like, you know, 999 to one, right? Like, I mean, it takes so for red pointing a hard project. You you fall. It's not 50-50. If it was 50-50, that would be amazing, right? Yeah.
00:47:06
Speaker
Yeah, I want to dig in a little more. So what I heard is that curiosity drives you, that you have a vision for something, whether it's climbing or send bars. And as soon as you see that vision, you know that it's possible to achieve it.
Passion driving Sasha's career
00:47:24
Speaker
What is it that allows you to see the need for another sports bar?
00:47:29
Speaker
I think that I am just really passionate about climbing and um passionate about entrepreneurship. Obviously, like obviously you know better than anyone, so I don't need to explain to you. but When you feel really passionate about something, it's what you want to do. And then you're going to pour in all that you can towards seeing if it's possible. And I think that in the different chapters and experiences that I've had with climbing, as well as different chapters outside of climbing, it's like, this is what gets me super excited. And when showing up,
00:48:13
Speaker
feels like you're doing what you really want to be doing. It's not like I'm punching in a ah card of like, did I show up to my training? I just want to climb outside. And I love that feeling when I'm climbing. and if like Finding out if i can do something really hard it's like i'm not doesn't always existed either like there's period my year where i actually don't want to be like bleeding from all of my fingertips and like just like having a hormone yeah.
00:48:43
Speaker
horrible time like just like smacking my self on the wall all the time like it's fun to do moderate climbs and climb per volume or change things up too. I think it's just like very dependent on what I feel really excited about and then not letting the blinders of doubt get in the way like just kind of like fixating on like this is the direction that i'm going. I don't know why i couldn't do it and getting into that mindset of play. I'm gonna apply myself and find out i guess for me like where that comes from is just feeling really excited and passionate about what i'm doing because you can't climb.
00:49:27
Speaker
Well, it'd be it like a death sentence to like do what I do, like climb every single day and like have done it for so long. If you didn't like climbing, like you'd be very miserable. So it's it's all very contingent on like what you as a human like to do. And then the more you like it, the more you're going to keep showing up for it. The second that you don't like it as much. I think that's when like you see that trajectory of like, um,
00:49:56
Speaker
wanting to participate in it and then seeing the like fruits of the labor and like the success or whatever you want to call it, like reflect on that as well. um But I think when I'm climbing well or when I feel like I'm climbing well, it's so baked into um this feeling of just like sublime happiness with myself. like There's no feeling like it, like to get to the top of a climb that you've really
00:50:27
Speaker
um like dreamed of doing, like you you feel physically satiated, mentally satiated. And I would argue to say that like that euphoria that you feel is hard to find in other aspects of life. Like even when I've, you know, on paper succeeded in some other avenue, it doesn't feel like it feels clipping the chains to your project.
00:50:52
Speaker
I don't know, maybe that changes. But I think that it's something that's pretty peculiar about climbing as well. It's like that just, and maybe it's what you achieve as an athlete and it could be copy and pasted to any sport of like just total bliss. You know, you said in the beginning of our discussion, of our conversation, you said that, you know, you've always felt different that you, much of your career, you cut against the grain.
00:51:22
Speaker
and you are a person who shows up and has a vision and as you put it, puts on these blinders so you don't see the doubts and goes and and makes it happen through passion, through just showing up as Sasha the Julian in your most ah authentic self. right like What I like about your answer is because you know that that's what I hear is you're just doing you. This is who I am and this is how I show up and this is what I care about and this is
00:51:52
Speaker
what I see, and you're making that happen. You're exercising your agency in the world. And I think that, you know, back to our thread about treating others how you would like to be treated, there are a lot of people who can't do that for themselves. They can't show up as their true selves. They don't feel comfortable. They've been told they're inadequate, that they're you know, not worthy for whatever reason, they got that message somewhere. And so would they see someone who is showing up as themselves and being successful at it?
00:52:25
Speaker
it causes them to just like almost go crazy, right? Like they can't handle it. And it's not about you or about me, it's about them. And I hope that, you know, you doing that and showing up as you exercising your agency in the world that, you know, that just, that for me creates more light, you know, and then there are people that will respond with negativity, but that's not about you. It's about them and that, you know, we all need more light. And, you know, you talked about joy because we've sort of been pulling in these threads like failure, ah fear a little bit and joy. And one of the themes that has come up time and time again in these conversations has been this idea of integrating different experiences into the same.
00:53:16
Speaker
human experience and You know as you said a couple of times that I have pointed out to like rock climbing can be extremely painful especially hard rock climbing and Like you just described this sort of euphoria that you feel after that you don't even know if is possible in any other kind of form of sport or maybe it is but you don't have an experience that And you're experiencing, in that moment, in that single climb, you're probably experiencing pain, you're probably experiencing fear on some level, if nothing else, the fear of failing in some quote and air quotes, and then you're experiencing joy when when you do it.
00:53:57
Speaker
I want to make sure that we remember as a community to recount, reshare, remember the experiences of euphoria and not always just talk about the pain and the suffering and the fear. But the joy and the laughter and the euphoria, that's a lot of the light that keeps us of all afloat and keeps us going forward and driving And these things like, I mean, as ah as a small business owner, like I sometimes have days where I'm like, Oh my God, like I'm staring into the abyss, like wondering how this is all going to work out and wondering when doubting all my decisions. And then other days I get like an email from an athlete who has just done their climb or their race or whatever. And they're so happy. And it was this huge thing and it helped them achieve something in their life.
00:54:41
Speaker
And it's like, okay, yeah, that was totally worth it. like you know and And both are true. And so many times we are trying to have this conversation where we're acting as if they're different experiences, fear and joy, and or pain and joy. it And actually they can be part of the same experience.
00:55:01
Speaker
Well, it's like the yin and the yang. Like if you don't have the down, you don't have the up. yeah And you need that ah duality of like the pain and the euphoria, the the suffering to the joy, like all of that. I mean, it's kind of like if you were if you were given a platter of chocolate every night.
00:55:21
Speaker
You wouldn't find it as a treat when you got that piece of chocolate. Like it's, I think it's like everything's in juxtapositions of like, um, just moderation, but also like that balance of like the bliss that you feel at the top of the climb is because it provided all that trouble to get there. Yeah. And the unknown. And so I think that like the bigger the reward comes from like the, the higher amount of like you wanted it and you suffered through it and like you tried hard and you applied yourself and you sacrifice and when you sacrifice something so much and then you you realize that its success at the end of it, whatever that looks like, I think that it's all the sweeter. What would you say to that person that can't get past the doubt? They maybe have the vision and they see the steps, but they're sort of frozen. I think a lot of people
00:56:18
Speaker
find themselves there. yeah I'm sure you have it sometime or another. I do for sure. And I think that that's where setting um a smaller goal might help. Like having something that's going to bring that sense of achievement that maybe is like shorter term forecasted when you like, if you're setting out this big training program,
00:56:43
Speaker
And you're like at the end of the year in January or December, I want to do this. But there's no clear line of sight towards getting there. Then the doubt can become very loud versus if you get give yourself like those little wins along the way.
00:57:00
Speaker
I think that feeling that can can really bring in like that resurgence of feeling like you're on the right track or feeling like you're getting something out of like all the discipline that you're showing up to each day. I've done a lot of work you know I've had throughout my adult life.
00:57:19
Speaker
struggles with depression. And one of the things I learned in therapy at one time was this idea of just doing the smallest possible thing. And often what that is for me when I'm in my funk is just like just cleaning the house. Just and then maybe sometimes cleaning the house is too much. It's just like, okay, I just got to tidy up the area around the couch yeah or i'm going to I'm going to actually do the dishes. you know or just It's like, what is the tiniest little positive action that you can take? And it's ah amazing how many times in my life, cleaning the house has kind of like been the thing that got me out of you know a depressive episode before it got bad. And I think it's the same with these goals. Just find the smallest, and it's sort of what you were saying, just find that smallest right action that you can take towards that goal.
00:58:10
Speaker
And then the next one, and then the next one, and then the next one. You know, as long as it's aligned with where you want to go, it's so powerful. I also feel like getting out of that funk, like getting out of because I too can relate to that statement. and like ah During my hip surgeries were some of the darkest times for me because like I've got this background of doing sports every single day and like having movement, so part of my life. and Then all of a sudden, I was like, Five surgery is deep and six months completely off exercise and like you don't see that light like and you have to create that light for yourself and see those the the ability to like. I mean it was when i wrote my book and when i really like the foundation percent bar is like i can't do anything else i need to create joy.
00:59:04
Speaker
um But yeah, it's it also stepping out and like spending time with people that you love, I think is really important. like Even if it's like going and meeting a friend for a coffee when like you don't want to leave your house because you feel really sad and down and and all the things that can come with depression or just even just like mental funks. The way in which we interact with, like you said, cleaning your house, like I think that clutter can be really disadvantageous.
00:59:33
Speaker
I think that like lack of just like human connection can be disadvantageous towards getting out of it too. like Our world is so connected but disconnected at the same time. like Me talking to someone on Instagram is not me talking to someone.
00:59:49
Speaker
And I think remembering that and the relationships of like imagine if we just like didn't have dinner in person with people or like things like that, like how depressing. And so remembering that like human connection and and doing things with others, I think that's why the time of COVID was so challenging for a lot of people outside of the health scares. It was like just like lack of connection. And that breeds so much animosity, too. Yeah.
Unseen work of professional climbing
01:00:18
Speaker
You know, professional climbing, I think, is ah something that, well, first of all, it didn't even exist when I was 20-something years old. And, you know, now it does. It is a thing. And it's intense. It's it's hard. I think people look at it from the outside and they think, oh, I like these people. They just get, of course they're good. They just get to climb all the time or whatever. But I think few people realize how much actual work goes into being a professional climber. And I'm talking about the work of emails, of being in the airplane, going to events, you know, doing the product feedback.
01:01:02
Speaker
going for pictures, like all the things that are just actually not climbing or training for climbing what you're doing. How do you keep that joy and that laughter alive in that intense world? How do you do that? It's funny that you outline that because I feel so connected to that statement right now, just i'm sure coming off of like a film tour where like, gosh, I would love nothing more than to be what you guys think of just ah you all you do is climb rocks. And like, that would be fantastic. I'd love that. Sign me up. Yeah, exactly. I think that that's what you do when you're not a professional climber. Sometimes I'm so excited for when I can be um providing this job for myself that like also doesn't come with the accessories of like being a pro climber.
01:01:53
Speaker
But what I will say to answer the question is like when I go and I get to interact with a lot of young climbers a lot and I get to see that that excitement and that fire and that permeability of light taking what your presence and what you're saying and like with the way that you're approaching climbing or or talking about something else and like absorbing it. and And you can see that that is affecting the young boys and girls of the future. like That's a very palpable feeling for me that I feel very purpose-driven after. Why was that one of my last stops for here to climb of the film tour? And there's
01:02:35
Speaker
like a group of of young girls who came out. There's like nine of them um who all came together. And one of the little girls, well, first of all, they all wore pink, which was really sweet. um And they're like like embracing that and feeling so confident and like, this is very cool. Like I would have been you know shy to do that before. But then one of the little girls in the audience after the film played was like, do you still feel like you have a connection with your dad? um And does he interact with you in any ways now that he's passed?
01:03:15
Speaker
And I was like, this question came from a nine year old. Wow. Like what a crazy um thing. And I think that just like the level of awareness and the interaction and the like minds of our young coalition of people is just, it's exciting. It's like, we can see like the work that we're putting in towards making climbing this more approachable, more welcoming place be reflected and Just like the youth and the thoughtfulness and all of that it does excite me a lot like it makes me feel like um I don't know what the future it looks like in climbing but I know that it's super bright and I know that what we even Seemingly think is possible or not possible right now. We'll be totally redefined. Yeah for sure
01:04:03
Speaker
In my generation, the idea was to do the hardest climbing you could and not talk about it. And ideally the most dangerous climbing you could do. And then and sit back and sort of wait for people to kind of go out and do it and then be like, whoa, that guy was really hardcore because he did this thing. We tried to do it, but we couldn't do it or we fell off or it was super too dangerous or whatever. And now we're in this place where And I think maybe this is partially social media, but it's also partially just culturally where we are, where we're much more transparent about our processes. And I just want to say, you've taken such an honest path, and whether it was calling out the bullying you've dealt with to inviting people in as you go through these challenges, like you know your surgeries, and and then coming out of that, having created like a company and doing some of these things,
01:04:58
Speaker
And let's face it, like sometimes all of us are wrong and nobody's perfect. And I just think it's really brave what you've done in so many ways. and I think that if these nine-year-old girls are seeing you go through, you know, that's quite an example that you're giving them through, you know, not just your climbing, but how you're dealing with these this really serious adversity. How are they going to build on that?
01:05:29
Speaker
I see a two-folded answer. It's like, one, taking the history of climbing because Lynn and I have talked about that a lot, Lynn Hill, who's also in the film of just like the difference in the generational way in which like we even share about our climbs. And I actually talk about this with the other women who are part of the Women's Sports Foundation too often because women in the sports landscape have never had the same media platform as men in sportive. And so now that we have social media to share our adventures, to share what we're achieving, I would say that like you do become your own hype woman in a way. like You're sharing these achievements, but also like
01:06:18
Speaker
It's interesting because finally you can. And finally, you can create your own audience who actually cares about it. And maybe and in the past, like a lot of ah lot of female climbers go and achieve these great things, yet then someone over here who's like a male climber is going to be written about, and like his climb will be what's at the center of the magazine. And sometimes when I've heard like the critique over, like is it cool that we're now hyping our climbs?
01:06:46
Speaker
If you have to be your own advocate to share like what you're achieving, then go ahead and do it. like Create your own sphere of people that connect with your journey. And so to parlay that into the second half of the answer, it's like,
01:07:01
Speaker
What can I provide for the young girls who look up to me? I can provide this space that's welcoming, this space that's like you're embraced. You have a place. Go and be your best self. Go and pursue being a track star while also a professional climber. Be a pianist or a violinist and also care about the outdoors. like create a multi-dimensional existence for yourself and don't be afraid by the fact that so many people will tell you like you can't do that because The haters can be so loud but then the positive echo chamber of like support can also grow and be louder and so I think that like I would love to create an antidote to the like the negative and
01:07:56
Speaker
I know that in my career, I've read because we're all like permeable, and and I read things that people say that are mean, too, of like this notion of, like oh, it's all sunshine and rainbows, and like almost like knocking me for being too optimistic. and then like It's not A. like I think that what we choose to share is going to be a filtered version of like what we do share. and And I try and be as honest and transparent as possible, but I'm not going to be like constantly allaying in the negative or like what these hard situations that that we all go through are. And that's something that I i think I could do more of, maybe. as like ads But anyways, to the point of like
01:08:45
Speaker
When we think about anything, my mindset's always been like focus on the positive, focus on what you can control, and focus on like a way in which to lift up the future rather than try and knock down like any sort of excuses ah as to like what's holding you back. Because the more you focus on that, then the less you can actually just grow. And like the more free you can be from the noise.
01:09:11
Speaker
So I don't know, creating a space ideally for for the youth and for even people who are older than me, like and just to feel like they have that voice and they have the support and they have a platform, I think is really important. And it's something that I didn't really look up to and climbing when I was growing up because I didn't necessarily find that point of connection and like point of of near emulation like of just like and this person is putting out this to their audience and I want to I want to like embody that ethos and also have that for myself in my own creative personal way.
01:09:52
Speaker
So you've done so much in your life. You've been a national champion. You've climbed these incredible routes. You've written a book. You've produced a film. You've successful entrepreneur send bars and perhaps you're too young to have given this much thought. But how do you want to be remembered, Sasha?
Legacy and accessibility in climbing
01:10:11
Speaker
I think that I'd love to be remembered as someone that made the outdoors and climbing in general lifted and more welcoming. And if I can like extend some fraction of inspiration that I've claimed from the female athletes that I look up to, you then that's incredible. But I don't know yet. like I don't know how I'd want to be remembered, i hopefully just as like a good person and steward for the community.
01:10:43
Speaker
because there's always going to be people that, and hopefully, hopefully so, like below any set of achievements that I've had in my career out of the water to near irrelevancy, but that's progression in the sport. So that's very exciting. Yeah. You, you're cheer for that, right? You root for that. How can our listeners connect with you and follow you on social media and so on? All my social is very simple. It's just my name at Sasha D. Julian on, I'm even on Tik TOK now.
01:11:13
Speaker
All right. So we got TikTok, Instagram, all those, all the socials. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for the time today. Sasha, it's been a really great conversation and I'm sure that you're going to inspire a lot of people and teach a lot of people a lot of wisdom um with this conversation today. So thank you very much. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. I feel like we could talk for ages. So um really appreciate the conversation. I'm sure we'll speak again. Great.
01:11:44
Speaker
Voice of the Mountains is a production of Uphill Athlete Incorporated. Our producer is Alyssa Clark. Sound engineering and editing is done by Christoph Lucaser. Voice of the Mountains is scripted and hosted by me, Steve House, with research and writing help from Jamie Lyko. Thank you for listening to Voice of the Mountains.