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With Dez Johnston
58 Plays4 years ago
If you haven't heard of the Alpha Course, it's a popular tool used by churches and small groups to create a welcoming place for others to ask questions. This year has seen an sudden move to online Alpha courses, which continue to be effective places for ministry. In this episode, Kristi and Andy welcome the Director of Alpha Scotland to learn about his journey to faith and the various ways he's seeing the gospel at work today.
Dez Johnston was a Glaswegian bouncer with a drug problem who came to faith 12 years ago. Now an ordained Baptist minister, Dez worked in youth ministry before becoming the Director for Alpha Scotland. He continues to live in the Glasgow area with his wife Fi and two small children.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Kristy Mayer and as ever, I'm joined by my wonderful co-host, Andy Bannister. Andy, hi!
00:00:20
Speaker
I'll take that adjective and take that to the bank. Good afternoon, Kristy. Great afternoon. Are you dying out on that? Yeah, how are you doing? I'm doing well. It's Friday afternoon. The sun is shining. The kids have gone out for the afternoons. The house is quiet. So what is not to like? What is not to like? Well, I'll tell you what's not to like. In fact, it's freezing cold right now in London and I actually have like space heaters in the lounge. They're called space heaters. I'm calling it a space heater.
00:00:44
Speaker
We call it a face eater.
Meet Des: From Glasgow Bouncer to Baptist Minister
00:00:46
Speaker
Why not? Anyway, let me introduce you to our wonderful guest today, Des. Des, hi, how are you doing? Hi, how are you doing? You doing all right? Doing well, thanks. It's great to have you here. Can we hear a little bit about your background? Sure. What are you up to at the moment?
00:00:59
Speaker
yeah sure hi yeah it's great to be with you guys like i'm really encouraged to come and hang out on a Friday afternoon and you can probably tell by my accent i'm properly Scottish unlike Andy i heard that mate i heard that oh sorry mate sorry
00:01:17
Speaker
I'm an ex-Glasgow bouncer. I was a drug addict for many years. I had a miraculous encounter with Jesus on an alpha course and had my life turned around. I was working on the doors and working in a shop and just totally going down the wrong route really. Then I took an overdose one night, kind of accidentally.
00:01:43
Speaker
and made a crisis prayer. I didn't know what a crisis prayer was but I just cried out that I wanted to live. Then I woke up the next day and never touched cocaine again and then I kind of went on the three-year journey of trying to work out what had happened and
00:01:58
Speaker
what was all about. I kept meeting Christians and stuff and that ultimately led to a girl because there's always a girl in one of these stories and reading the Bible and actually reading the passage from Ecclesiastes 3 about you know there's a season for everything under heaven and I just I just had this moment but I was like hey maybe I'm a Christian. We went along with church
00:02:21
Speaker
I went on an alpha course which was very bizarre but then I met with the Holy Spirit and then ever since my life just kind of turned around I started doing youth work, I worked all over the nation, I ended up at the Scottish Baptist College where I then went on to be ordained as a Baptist minister. I married the girl and moved into an incarnational kind of mission thing and then lo and behold I end up working for alpha and I'm now the director for alpha in Scotland.
00:02:52
Speaker
That is quite a journey that you've been on there.
What is Alpha and How Did It Impact Des?
00:02:57
Speaker
Now, I'm sure there can't be very many people out there who don't know what Alpha is, but for people who don't know what Alpha is, what is Alpha and why are you so excited and passionate about that as an evangelistic tool?
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, great question Andy. So Alpha is a space for people to really start encountering and asking the biggest questions of life. We normally do that around the dinner table, we would normally have food together, we would then watch a video or listen to a live talk and then there's space for discussion and no questions off the table, no answers right or wrong. We just create a space for people to discuss
00:03:34
Speaker
where they're at and actually like really try and see where God fits into their lives and it's something that I'm really passionate about just because actually I think that traditionally within church there's a lot of one-directional communication you know it kind of comes from the front out
00:03:52
Speaker
But with Alpha, it's really cyclic, it's really conversational. And for me personally, that's the way that I see Jesus leading people in the Bible. He's there with them, hearing their stories on this journey with them. And Alpha just creates a little bit of that space for me to connect with people, and I just love it. That's wonderful to him, particularly the way in which it creates that opportunity to connect with other people. Do you have any examples of how you've been using it recently?
Alpha's Online Transition During Lockdown
00:04:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, so obviously we are in the midst of lockdown. I don't know if anybody picked up on that, but it's perfect. And then we, so when all this started, we had never done Alpha Online really. We had run a kind of trial course up here in Scotland last year, but that was about as far as it went.
00:04:40
Speaker
But then we've just had this kind of massive pivot to be able to connect with people online. And we've seen well over 250 churches here in Scotland running alpha online for people in their community and wider field. And what's been really interesting is that lots of people have been connecting in from all over the place. And it's people that we've maybe never have came to church before. It's people that would never have
00:05:06
Speaker
you know being able to drive their car into the car park and sit there but they've been finding a space online kind of almost anonymously to really ask these questions and you know there's stories kind of coming through you know like just from this morning I was talking to someone in Dumfries and nine people have came to faith on their alpha course during lockdown which is just incredible you know.
00:05:31
Speaker
It was interesting, we were talking to another guest on a recording yesterday from the Glasgow area who'd had some folks come to faith through Alpha. And again, just similar stories of people with no background at all, but just really drawn to things right now.
00:05:46
Speaker
Dez, I've got so much time for Alpha. That's an amazing kind of project. But obviously it tends to be run by churches or organizations most of the time. What lessons have you learned as an individual through being involved in Alpha? Are there lessons that you can learn that you can also put into practice when talking to your friend, to your neighbor, to your colleague? Are there lessons that you can draw from Alpha groups for everyday life too?
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah and well I actually think yes and no Andy to be honest. I think yes in the every alpha group is those is those conversations you know it's people genuinely coming in from their everyday and just saying hey this is what I think about this you know so we get we've had and so I've run nine alpha online since the start of March and and we have had every question under the sun
00:06:38
Speaker
you know and inevitably what happens is someone asks a question like I don't know like why is there suffering you know and we maybe discuss it on that night and then surprisingly you know you may be having a conversation with your your mum or your auntie or you know someone following week and that topic comes up so you've already done a little bit of thinking around it you know and and as you run more alphas you just become more aware of these questions and things that people are having and it's like it's like studying
00:07:07
Speaker
Anything isn't it? You become more aware of the wider questions and conversations around these things. So actually just by running alpha, it almost feeds into that. But actually I think what it does more than anything is shape the way that you meet with people.
00:07:23
Speaker
So I genuinely meet with people where they're at. And for me, running alpha is just like having a conversation with someone in the street. And I don't know whether alpha's changed me into that, or that's just the way that I run alpha, but it certainly feels that there's something going on between those two places.
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, it's one of those things that I've also really appreciated about Alpha when I was involved with Gas Street in Birmingham. You've got people there who are keen to kind of engage with you and they're coming with deep questions, aren't they? And they're really quite glad to be able to
00:08:00
Speaker
extend the conversation in some way. But what do you do after those kind of alpha sessions are over? How do you go about building intentional relationships, either with those who've been coming through the alpha course or perhaps moving slightly on from alpha? How do you build? How do we go about building relationships with mates and taking on to that next level from the conversation on the street to to something a little bit more intentional?
Maintaining Relationships Post-Alpha
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great question, isn't it? Once somebody works out, they'll make a lot of money. For me, I genuinely think it's about lifestyle. If you're someone who genuinely loves people, I genuinely love people. I'm an extrovert. I love spending time with people. I am naturally drawn to want to do that with people.
00:08:50
Speaker
and actually I think it's just about having that intentionality like I think you know we've seen a lot like this is my personal thing at the minute but there's a lot of people in church who you know you've got these relationships that are kind of Sunday relationships but they maybe feel like friends but actually during lockdown you've we've all been spending much more time intentionally with people that we care about whether it's family or friends or whatever that looks like and whether that's on zoom or facetime or
00:09:17
Speaker
You know, and I actually think it's about really moving into those relationships and saying, you know what, I don't need to be there for a thousand people, I need to be there for one. You know, I need to be there for ten, like, and actually being committed to spending time and praying for that person. And, you know, my wife, when I was really struggling at the work time, what way was up, and she was the one that took me to church, she prayed for me every day for a year and a half beforehand.
00:09:45
Speaker
But the thing that really spoke to me about her was that she was honest with her faith. And it was just like, it was just conversational. It wasn't forced down my neck. It wasn't any, you know, there wasn't any high flute in language. It was just, hey, this is what I believe and this is how it works out in my life, you know? And I just love that. I just think there's a simplicity to that that works for people.
00:10:05
Speaker
I wonder if that kind of sort of simplicity that you described there, there's, I'll do that also, do you think it can also help Christians overcome, sometimes the fear I sense is there. Sometimes I get a sense that Christian's a bit nervous about inviting a friend to something like alpha or the such like, but maybe that's because it's been done the way it's slightly false. If you do it in a way that's more sort of simple and down to earth, that makes it easier. What do you think?
What is Relational Evangelism?
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really interesting. For me, I always come back to, when you ask a Christian what evangelism is, we instantly jump to a Billy Graham or a Jay John or something like that. But actually, the reality is that we're all called into that space of sharing our faith one-on-one and being relational with people. And I think sometimes we can really get
00:11:00
Speaker
We can get trapped in the belief that it's about us.
00:11:03
Speaker
And it's never about us, it's always about Jesus. I think if we're doing our job well, we are just a signpost to the gospel. And if you think of it a motorway, we're the on-ramp, we're the one pointing and saying, hey, God's over here, look at this. This is where God is right now, look at this over here. In Granite, some of us are more large and tattooed and make that a little bit easier to find, but we should all be doing that in our day-to-day, just in that,
00:11:32
Speaker
gentle, loving, pointing people towards God. And actually, we need to release ourselves from that and realize that it's about Jesus meeting that person in their relationship. It's not about my relationship necessarily. How did you know that Christie was tattooed? That was amazing. You can just tell by our voice. I do. Guilty. I have two. How many do you have, Des?
00:12:00
Speaker
about 350 or something. Incredible. I cannot wait to see that. You're from what you said before the tattoo comment. Thank you Andy Bannister. That just takes the pressure off, doesn't it? It's just that you can just breathe easy in that way. There's such a simplicity to be able to talk about who Jesus is when we aren't kind of focusing on that magic bullet.
00:12:24
Speaker
How do you go about kind of pre-evangelism, for example, like before you actually get to Alpha or building on these intentional kind of relationships? Are there ways in which churches or individuals can get friends ready for Alpha?
00:12:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question answer. I've never really thought about it. I think that for me, I think we're all doing that all the time. It's just that we don't always necessarily pull the trigger. So we all know that friend who has asked those questions about a Sunday or like, why do you think this? Or they've maybe talked about someone going to a funeral.
00:13:04
Speaker
and then said, like, what does that look like in your church? You know, these are conversations that open up avenues for us to invite people to Alpha, for example, or Christianity Explored or, you know, the prayer course or whatever it is. And I think that we don't always make the move on that, you know, as well. And I think in the past that's largely been, for example, you know, we were on Alpha in September.
00:13:29
Speaker
so this person was saying that in January so you know maybe if the conversation comes up in August I'll invite them you know but actually now people are so much more fluid there's opportunities like there's never been before like you know to ask a friend to attend church on a Sunday is a far easier ask now than it's ever been because they're going to sit in their living room in their pajamas and turn on YouTube.
00:13:52
Speaker
do you know? So I think it's all about just seeing those opportunities and for me personally, I have a list of people I pray for daily and I just ask for those opportunities to come up and when they do invite them to alpha or whatever we're doing at church or just getting involved in their life.
00:14:12
Speaker
I love that the idea there's about sort of having that list of people you pray for regularly for opportunities, because I think, you know, we, my wife and I try and do the same thing. And I think that takes the pressure off to a degree, because in a sense you're leaving it with the Lord, right? You're saying, my God, if you want me to speak to this person, create the opportunity and I'll step into it. But if you don't, then I'll take that as a sign that I don't take the pressure off. Do you have, we've talked quite a lot about the sort of theory
00:14:36
Speaker
of all this. Do you have any kind of sort of stories of God at work through some of the stuff you've been doing? So I think it's also great to encourage people with some of what's going on to hear examples of God at work or any kind of sort of stories that stand out for you from what you've been involved in, what you've seen throughout over the past few months.
00:14:52
Speaker
Yeah, so I'll give you, I can tell you a story about a friend of mine, I won't say his name, but he, so we put the first episode of Alpha online at Easter and three of my ex-bouncer friends watched it all the way through and were messaging me while the episode was on.
00:15:13
Speaker
And I was like, this is very bizarre, do you know? And I just mentioned them and was like, hey guys, if you'd like to see the next episode, I'd love to hang out and do that with you. So me and three mates met at about 11 o'clock on a Tuesday night and just spent some time together doing alpha together over the weeks. And one of them was just giving his life to Jesus and the other two have been checking in church on a Sunday.
00:15:42
Speaker
now like those guys would never have came to church like they just wouldn't have you know so this is all online based but like you know the conversations that i've just came out of that have been amazing and the two guys who haven't made a commitment like i can already see the change in their lives like i can already see the the gold that's coming out of the way that they're doing and just the way that they're even behaving and thinking about things is just you know like
00:16:08
Speaker
I can see a freedom for them in that. It's not like I'm saying that their lives are suddenly better and that all their problems have gone away. It's not that at all, but just their ability to process those problems, their ability to relate to other people is so much more wide, so much more elaborate than it was before. So that's just one, and that's really personal to me. Those are guys that I really care about, and those are guys that knew me before I was a Christian.
00:16:37
Speaker
So I've only been a Christian for 12 years. So for me, those are people that have seen the journey. And for them, I guess, there's a bit of a message in there that there is hope. Because this is a long-term thing. It's not just something that's going to happen in the flash of a pan.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much, Des. That's the importance of ongoing continuing relationship and just the real joy of seeing people who've known you for such a long time and seen God's work and hand upon
Engaging Gen Z with Authenticity and Integrity
00:17:10
Speaker
your life. That's such a gift.
00:17:12
Speaker
One of the things that you mentioned earlier on that you've been working on is how to reach Gen Z. Could you give us some thoughts on that? Any ideas of how we can go about that? Gen Z is fascinating to me because they make up about 22% of the population. For those who are not savvy with this, can you just remind people what Gen Z is?
00:17:36
Speaker
Yeah, so the Gen Z is young people essentially. It's really hard to define, but a lot of people would kind of characterise it as kind of 1994 to 2012, you know, young people born within that age group. So turning of age, kind of, you know, at this point, you know, you're kind of
00:17:57
Speaker
young people coming through basically under 25s is I guess what we're saying really. It's a unique group of people in that the way that they approach everything is totally different. They're digital native. They will never lick a postage stamp. They don't know what a CD is. Their first phone was a smartphone. They've only ever existed while hybrid cars were available to purchase.
00:18:27
Speaker
you know like they are a generation so far removed from where we are but they've got more information at their fingertips than ever before and one of the things that really identifies Gen Z is their hunger for integrity and a really high bar calling on that and I think for a lot of them when they've encountered in church is not that high level of integrity
00:18:51
Speaker
But now I'm not saying that every church is the same but you know a lot of people struggle with kind of Sunday Christians because they're seeing people talk about things, they're hearing about the way that Jesus should be and then not seeing that played out in Christians lives necessarily.
00:19:07
Speaker
And that's a really hard barrier to cross. And they're also able to access information much more rapidly than ever before and suddenly become experts in things because they've watched two YouTube videos on it.
00:19:22
Speaker
You know, so it means that we really need to be dynamic in our thinking, but they're also like three generations removed from Christendom. You know, so they're so far away from church being the normal, that they don't even know Bible stories, like the closest they may became is doing nativity in school. So actually, even the way that we communicate with them needs to be different. So if, for example, on a Sunday morning, if you were to stand up and say, well, you know the story of Noah and the Ark,
00:19:51
Speaker
No they do not. They know the Russell Crowe version perhaps, but that's what they know. So actually just our starting point is totally different. Our starting point is much more where the early church were, where the people knew nothing and you're literally starting from scratch.
00:20:12
Speaker
Dez, we're coming to the end of the podcast. This has been so helpful, a lot of the stuff you've shared. But I guess one last question as we wrap this up. If someone listening to this was struggling a bit with the restrictions of COVID and what they can and can't do, they've got a huge passion to reach their neighbors. What's one last piece of advice you'd give in terms of them getting the gospel out to those they care about? Is there one last encouragement, one last piece of advice you'd give them to motivate them to get out there and do it?
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, get praying. Absolutely. Just get praying and wait for the opportunities to come in. I think, you know, if we get on our knees and hungrily search out those relationships, those all come in abundance and it won't be easy and it won't be fun all the time, but it will be beautiful.
00:21:00
Speaker
great, great words to end on. Des, thank you so much for giving up your time this afternoon. I know you're an incredibly busy man with all that you're doing. Thank you so much for being a guest with us on pep talk this afternoon. No, absolute pleasure. Thanks guys. Love hanging out with you guys. Brilliant. And it's all of you listening to this at home or in the car or wherever you are. I hope you enjoy the show and hope we welcome you back here again in two weeks time and we have another guest. Thanks for listening to pep talk.
00:21:32
Speaker
I hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. This is a listener supported podcast. We can only make it with the support of our friends across the country and around the world. And if you'd like to be a part of that community, simply visit the website, thepeptalkpodcast.com.
00:21:48
Speaker
and click on the Support the Podcast button. If you sign up to support Solas and the podcast for as little as three pound a month as a thank you, we will send you a free copy of my book, The Atheist Didn't Exist, or if you prefer, Christie's book, More Truth as a thank you. And through your support, we can keep making more podcasts like this one.