Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
China Tourism Tuesday 34
21 Plays1 month ago
In our latest episode 34 of the China Tourism Tuesday podcast series we have the well respected China outbound tourism industry veteran, @AlfredLi, as a special guest. Having served in various roles for 13 years with New Zealand Tourism and ultimately serving as their China manager, Alfred has a depth of insight into the China tourism market that is hard to match. Besides discussing the China outbound tourism market in general we also have a deep dive discussion into AI assisted search in China, which platforms of relevance to the tourism industry it is already a reality but most importantly how AI assisted search and Generative Engine Optimisation (GEO) will impact on tourism related search on China’s leading OTA and social media platforms. If you have any comments please do let us know and remember to subscribe!ode 34 of the China Tourism Tuesday podcast series we have the well respected China outbound tourism industry veteran, @AlfredLi, as a special guest. Having served in various roles for 13 years with New Zealand Tourism and ultimately serving as their China manager, Alfred has a depth of insight into the China tourism market that is hard to match. Besides discussing the China outbound tourism market in general we also have a deep dive discussion into AI assisted search in China, which platforms of relevance to the tourism industry it is already a reality but most importantly how AI assisted search and Generative Engine Optimisation (GEO)will impact on tourism related search on China’s leading OTA and social media platforms. If you have any comments please do let us know and remember to subscribe!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
Good day everybody and welcome to our latest episode 34 of China Tourism Tuesday. My name is Michael Jones and I am coming to you from Amsterdam.
00:00:11
Speaker
Today, we have got a very special guest, Alfred Li, an old colleague and network contact in the China outbound tourism industry on our show today. And we'd like to get a bit of his insights about his previous career, current career and what he thinks about Chinese outbound tourism for the future. Alfred, welcome to the show. For those that don't know you that well, um if you could please give a brief introduction about who you are and what you do.
00:00:41
Speaker
My career most of the time was with the Auburn tourism. and So in the latest year I was involved with the Auburn tourism in New Zealand. I worked for tourism in New Zealand in different roles in the past 13 years from 2011 to 2024.
00:01:07
Speaker
Before I joined Tourism New Zealand, I was the travel and tourism department leader for at New South China.
Post-Pandemic Chinese Tourism Trends
00:01:17
Speaker
And before that role, I was working for a flight center for in Beijing for five years. And then most recent role, I'm just partnering with the and consulting team in China to work on some projects.
00:01:36
Speaker
to help oversight destinations to help them to promote their product or their you know country or city. on me That's awesome. So you worked for New Zealand tourism for 13 years. That's a really long time. And obviously, I mean, from an outsider's perspective, that must have been quite an exciting time for yourself. I mean, clearly, New Zealand tourism is without doubt one of the stronger outbound tourism brands in the Chinese market.
00:02:07
Speaker
It's ah obviously got a lot of positivity attached to it. So you obviously know the ins and outs of the Chinese outbound markets to New Zealand and Oceania region in general. um How do you find the market nowadays? I mean, like I'm talking about like the last few months, maybe a bit of last year.
00:02:30
Speaker
ah how How do you see and how do you rate Chinese outbound tourism to New Zealand of of recent? Well, let me just start with the you know like last few months from the end of last year to you know Chinese New Year and after Chinese New Year.
00:02:47
Speaker
my observation of the the market situation. I think a lot of people say that in 2026 is the very important year for the after pandemic recovery, because some of the destination already reached the 2019 level, but some of the country are not back to the 2019 level, for example, like New Zealand, that's um I think last year was around like 65% to around the 65% of the 2019 level.
00:03:28
Speaker
But like some of the destination, like for example, Singapore or Spain, they have already reached the 2019 level.
00:03:38
Speaker
So think this this year is quite important as because the global market will reach the 2019. But I think there will be, you know, the the market will be some... and One difference is the ah more, you know,
Political and Global Influences on Tourism
00:03:57
Speaker
the... um How the loss of FIT and the small, you know, Tours, that's compared with 2019, that's quite different because I i i think back in 2019, the market is still a big group-dominant market.
00:04:16
Speaker
But now, it's more and more FIT and Small, mini-sized group that goes to Aoba.
00:04:28
Speaker
I think that's the the the change we've seen in the past few years. Continued change, the the the overall ah market combination. think that's the the one thing. And other things, the... um um a political um you know The situation in in from but from late last year to the overall album, from and the end of last year, it's you know the China and Japan's tension that have affected the China, how about market to ah Japan a lot? I think that's probably like 50% of the the market drop.
00:05:19
Speaker
Absolutely. yeah Yeah. And lots of people will ah Chinese people would choose to other destinations like Korea or Malaysia. And that's the one thing that's affecting the recent open market. And now it's some
00:05:40
Speaker
situation in the Some people were were in the Middle East of Chinese travelers. and So ah the social media, they stuck there for almost a week and trying to go back to China.
00:05:56
Speaker
I think that's kind of affecting in in the future of the the Chinese travel intention that ah the safety issue and then the the region or the country's political situation, the software probably worthed one of the but Chinese need people to to choose a destination.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Also, I was at ITB Berlin last week, and yeah the Middle East was very present mind, because naturally most of the people from the Middle East couldn't get to Berlin in the first place, because of all flight cancellations and stuff like that. But also the the problem was that you've also got a lot of people flying through that region, like with this with Emirates or Abu Dhabi and things like that.
Attractiveness of Long-Haul Destinations
00:06:50
Speaker
So lot coming from even Africa who would normally go through, fly through that region, or they were also challenged by all the cancellations. So I believe that like ITB Berlin, I would believe that easily up to like 30% of the people couldn't make it.
00:07:05
Speaker
to to the actual show. And and that that was very specific around a very specific timeframe. But now again, with instability in the Middle East and what's happening in Iran now, like I can imagine that that must also naturally affect ah the Chinese outbound tourism market quite significantly.
00:07:24
Speaker
I mean, obviously, the Middle East is super popular with with the China market. yeah But I mean, that must also play well towards countries like New Zealand and Australia, I'm guessing.
00:07:38
Speaker
I mean, I hear what you were saying about how the mode, how the the the style of of tourism from China to New Zealand has changed, is becoming more FIT and stuff like that. But I mean, even even before COVID, I noticed that countries like New Zealand and Australia, which are, which are let's let's be honest, they are long haul destinations. I mean, it takes you a good time fly there. Even ah pre-COVID, I think as long haul destinations, New Zealand and Australia is probably tea travelers.
00:08:08
Speaker
than other long-haul destinations. naturally Naturally, there was also groups and stuff like that. But what what I also found ah fascinating and what I found interesting about what you were saying earlier about New Zealand reaching about 65% from the China market compared to the pre-COVID levels. I remember just before COVID started, Australia was already receiving like 1 million Chinese tourists, 1.1 million, 1.2 million.
00:08:38
Speaker
Yeah. and at I mean, which are just like really big numbers. um And I just remember at the time speaking to some Australians at one of the trade shows in Australia and asked them about how sustainable do they think it is to get to continue to receive over a million tourists.
00:08:57
Speaker
And ah the Australians I was speaking to were very adamant, which I found quite interesting and actually quite aggressive in the marketing. They were saying, oh, well, one million is not enough. We want two million.
00:09:09
Speaker
And I mean, yeah, but then naturally, obviously, COVID kicked in. ah but But that's obviously still going to be a very popular destination, especially if it's growing for FIT. I mean,
00:09:21
Speaker
These countries must be fantastic for for families to travel, for the small three-generation groups. Yeah, a little bit for everybody. Yeah, really interesting markets.
00:09:32
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that New Zealand is this year probably in quite good the position, as you mentioned, that you know that's relatively that going that way, there's not much of the... you know the geopolitical tension that's over there. And in general, that's the safety could probably play a quite big role when they promote the destination of the the the Chinese consumers when they choose destination.
Economic Impact on Travel Behavior
00:10:04
Speaker
that's Safety is quite big. The factor that affecting them. And also the develop um um by New Zealand started visa-free for the travelers who already have an Australia visa. And after they go to Australia, they can go to New Zealand visa-free, they only knew need to apply the ETA. and the eta So that's make lots of people that, you know, they only need to apply one Australia visa, they can travel two countries. So that's probably ah quite a number, because I haven't seen the updates, um the visit number statistics yet, but I think that definitely will play a big role during the and the Chinese New Year, the the
00:10:58
Speaker
peak season Chinese trout travel to New Zealand. there Also, let's talk about visa-free. I think that for the the Chinese people, also because I think roughly like 40, maybe even reach to 50 countries now give China visa-free.
00:11:18
Speaker
yeah So lots of ah Chinese people, they choose to probably go to a visa-free or visa on arrival destination. you know, lots of Chinese people, they they can't plan their trip like, you know, six months ahead.
00:11:36
Speaker
So yeah lots of people, they were just, you know, and before two or even one month, they make decisions to buy a flight ticket, make hotel booking, and then they they go for destination. But if it's a visa-free destination, that's you know make their travels much easier.
00:11:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And i mean I mean, Alfred, you're sitting in Beijing right now. I mean, so you you mentioned earlier that this year should be the year that Chinese outbound tourism fully recovers compared with 2019. Now, i'm I'm guessing one of the biggest challenges for the market to fully recuperate has been the
AI in Travel Planning
00:12:27
Speaker
the Chinese economy. There was obviously a bit of a slowdown. something good But buts what's the feeling in Beijing? I mean, what's the feeling on the streets there? Are things starting?
00:12:38
Speaker
Is the economy starting to improve a bit more or is it of people regardless of the economy, are starting to travel more again because they've been at home for too long?
00:12:49
Speaker
Or how do you how do you find that the current Chinese outbound market? And do you think this do you do you believe it really is going to 100% recover this? my um You know, be the um the people are getting more and more confidence.
00:13:06
Speaker
don't think the people are short of um money for, you know, the people that travel is more the confident that they whether they will continue to receive their you know their income, that whether they still get the same job as previously. That's that's probably that's the the big factor to spend more travel.
00:13:33
Speaker
But the EV cars and in in in China, and there are opportunities new for Chinese people that are starting to get to the new extreme. list In the past, literally also people rely on the exporting products to the US.
00:13:57
Speaker
But after the tariffs, they did yeah the tariff that people have shifted their business to other sectors. And the export cars to overseas now become quite an exchange for the the Chinese and also the new technologies. So I think that's the pretty much the the the economy is now a stable growth that, you know, the that the robots, that and the car, the EV cars, and the AI, the new engine.
00:14:44
Speaker
And a lot of people that who use the AI to their are trip overseas, that's a fascinating thing that while checking AI with you know if that's the destination I have never been to and I ask AI, So they give me a lot of detailed and comprehensive answer that make my you know research much easier. Yeah. So let's talk about that. So that's obviously a huge new, I don't know what to call it thing or a challenge or an opportunity. We'll have to see. But yes, that's a huge topic at the moment, AI-assisted search.
00:15:28
Speaker
um It's obviously been talked about a lot in the Western media, and I would assume that in China it would be no different. um Naturally, I think the difference is that, well, the West has got its own platforms, and China very much has its own indigenous technology. It has got its own platforms. It has got its own ecosystem. I mean, I remember I had an African friend that traveled to Moscow for a conference, and he was telling me, oh, this Russia, it is different. They got their own ecosystem.
00:16:04
Speaker
And I was like, wow, if you think Russia has got its own ecosystem, you really should go to China, because that is really its own ecosystem. So there are naturally, i mean i mean, again, also when when I was at ITB Berlin last week, I heard lots of people talking about this topic, especially a lot of ah the tourism brands, big and small, are starting to invest in doing geo work, generative projects.
00:16:33
Speaker
engine optimization for AI search engines. People are naturally doing that from an international perspective, because, I mean, that is most of the AI systems that are used in the West are essentially American AI systems, most of them.
00:16:51
Speaker
And so when it comes to language, when it comes to tooling, when it comes to the labeling, that's all fine. um But so you have been doing quite a bit of research into AI-assisted search in the China market. And also that obviously includes geo with a search engine engine optimization of the new frontier. What has whatever have you found to be interesting and surprising so far ah sort of through the work that you've been doing?
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, so let's maybe just um first give you a bit of overview of the China, the AI tours or the AI e ecosystem. let's Yeah, please.
00:17:31
Speaker
Yeah. and you in In the Western country that will people use, you know, like OpenAI, Genoma, you know, that's the tours.
00:17:41
Speaker
But in China, well, it's people like Doubao, Kimi, Chianwen, Deepsea, Hanbao, bestow different names and supported by different companies. that's I think that's the that's the the one of the major differences.
00:18:02
Speaker
you know, the the AI is is not the Western platform. And so that's in general, i will say major and internet groups, Tencent, which is, you know, the CAD and the Granbao platform. That's the the one a big player.
00:18:24
Speaker
and Alibaba is another big company. They other platforms like Alipay or Flaky or Taobao. And another big player is the TikTok group. So they have like Taobao or the major The China, Douyin is the Chinese version of TikTok.
00:18:52
Speaker
And on those platforms, that's an individual AI app, but on their different, for example, Flaky, Baobao, they have other platforms also. you know AI to help the the people that get through the app.
00:19:17
Speaker
So it's kind of is implementing every big platform.
Navigating AI in Tourism Marketing
00:19:23
Speaker
So not only not not just this, let's say, with them even like like Little Redbook, have their own AI developed to help the people that if people like AI, so Little Redbook as well.
00:19:39
Speaker
So that's basically it's been implemented everywhere and the big apps. Yeah, totally. So, i mean, that's going to be across everywhere. so it's So it's on all the major Chinese social media networks. And it's also on all the OTAs and tour operator search engines.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah. And that's about the the the platforms and the the people are searching. The their behavior is kind of quite different compared with, you know, if you use search engine, not search keywords.
00:20:17
Speaker
You know, you think about an idea you want to search, you need to think in your mind to find what's the key word for this idea and that you search on the internet and probably you won't get the you know direct answer if you only just start to search. Oh, maybe this is not the right word. I need to change another word, change another word and then probably you'll find the right answer. But on AI, you just you you don't need to tell AI the word. You need to just tell. It doesn't have to be a specific word of running through. You just tell them, want find a destination that i know can make me feel relaxed. Some people say, you know not too crowded and safe, you know have beach and it's not too expensive. You just ah tell
00:21:14
Speaker
AI, what your idea is, and AI will analyze and give you a you know quite comprehensive answer. yeah But and that's that's also assuming, so in the beginning, I'm guessing that it's going to be a situation then where tourism brands that have actually done their geo-compliance kind of work, like search-friendly, so to speak.
00:21:43
Speaker
um The ones that do it the earliest are probably going to be, well, I'm assuming will be benefiting the most in the beginning until oh everybody starts doing it, especially when it, if it comes to keywords and tags and things like that, in the sense that, I mean, recently i was i was trying to, I was considering going on holiday, an island in the Mediterranean, and I had to fix dates and everything. And so I thought around with, I will be honest, it did not work out that well.
00:22:17
Speaker
I was asking for some very specific things. And while I know the specific accommodation i was looking for, so like, for example, the specific accommodation i was looking for is i need I need three bedrooms, not two bedrooms, not one bedroom, but I need specifically three bedrooms. Whereas you then you normally get split into two different rooms, kind of but our bedrooms, if you know what mean. and And then I did a search and and yeah the the results weren't that great for that specific island. I did recommend a a hotel or two, but but it didn't really work as I planned. But I'm assuming that on that island, not a lot of the hotels have done their geo-compliance work yet. So AI wasn't able to find the correct hotel that I was looking for, I'm guessing.
00:23:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah, totally. So let's let's still AI is still quite a new thing and there are lots of work needs to be done to you know that help AI to find the answer looking for all the people express their needs and the AI is helping them to find the answer they're looking for. and a But if you go a bit, not that specific level, but if you go to more more of the in general level, that's ah in overall at destination information or the, you know, how you're planning your time at a destination, will
00:24:01
Speaker
the AI will give you a quite good answer. And I think that will change people's behavior. and um the People used to open the travel app first thing.
00:24:19
Speaker
Maybe they'll open the first thing to you know tell AI what their travel idea is. Or sometimes the the people used to Google, I do...
00:24:30
Speaker
for their travel ideas. And now they will just directly ask ai and tell AI what their needs instead of ask Google for it. More like if i and don't have specific travel destination, but I have some requirements, and AI will filter in out a lot of destination provide me like, you know, few recommendations and tell me, you know, each destination, what's their advantage and disadvantage and help me to make that decision.
00:25:08
Speaker
So from from this point view that I think that's AI is what will save a lot of time for people to search and help people to make their decision.
00:25:19
Speaker
Yeah, totally. Well, so on that point, I've i've got two questions for you about ai search and the China market. my My first question is, so like I mentioned, with these various international ah brands that are now and doing the geo compliance work that the international AI search engines can find them and stuff like that. Now, do you think there is also a requirement for tourism brands to also do geo-compliance work, but specifically for the Chinese market and specifically for the Chinese AI search engines to find? Yes, absolutely. absolutely So I was doing research, so I found that a few things that need to be worth to mention.
00:26:14
Speaker
So that's the the China market is the from the AI infrastructure. when the LLM, the large language model, when they train, compared with the China GPT or Gemini, they train on environment. with The Chinese AI trained some websites, but It's a combination of different websites, but also like some will get the data from both the social platforms like wiub jiao hongu or jehu the version of the kind of Wikipedia or
00:27:05
Speaker
um so that because when they train on different platforms, so they when they provide answers, they will turn some content they have their language to trade on.
00:27:23
Speaker
So that's the dimension. And also that if you content more mobile friendly, probably when the AI um getting in balancer the the AI app.
00:27:39
Speaker
So that's probably much easier if you if they have a link that connects to the new website. That's that's easier for people to rate on their mobile phone because in China, the majority of people that say use AI is on their mobile phone.
00:27:58
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and um also the you know ecosystem, let like ah the world, how you mentioned in your product, you should be the more aligned on different platforms, um on social, on your own website. even on booking. So when the the AI, they will compare with different websites and if your message is more consistent and they will treat that as more reliable content and it's more likely for AI to referring to that answer.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what i find quite interesting is is that, I mean, naturally I use ChatGPT, but I absolutely use DeepSeek a lot.
00:28:56
Speaker
And what I find quite interesting is that when there are specific topics or specific trends that i'm like that I'm busy researching, whether it's going to be for a new report or for a client,
00:29:13
Speaker
But when I'm doing research specifically on DeepSeq about the Chinese outbound components of it, it might be, I find that the results that it gives, it will give results according to a lot based on pure traditional media work, traditional PR work.
00:29:36
Speaker
um So to give you an example, there is obviously ah a lot of outtbo tourism industry, whether they marketing, consulting, communications, or whether they actually like that. But what I find is that when there is a specific organization that is trying to push a specific trend, because that trend is beneficial to their business ultimately, And if they have published a lot of content about that trend, trying to convince people, I mean, ultimately, that is what PR is. PR is about convincing people.
00:30:07
Speaker
um I do find that DeepSQL give me answers based on a volume of content from a specific organization. to a degree. What what I learned but from that ultimately, yes, of course, AI is a a machine, but but it is trained by humans.
00:30:25
Speaker
And it still obviously relies a heck of a lot on all the human produced content out there and online and things like that.
AI's Growing Role in Consumer Decisions
00:30:33
Speaker
So so I do find that that maybe one of the ways of standing out on AI searches is still like traditional content development work, pushing out particular content that you believe to be correct as much as possible.
00:30:49
Speaker
and And that will be picked up by the AI search engines. um oh Yeah, yeah. the um The AI, when they decide which one is the, you know, they need to find answers,
00:31:06
Speaker
they need find answer the the AI believe that's the right answer. So go to more of the official website or the organization that, you know, official title, to get the answer from the, I think probably at least the reason why you say that, you know, it's more being picked up by AI.
00:31:34
Speaker
and And more on my second question, is like why is this important? um Is it important? From the point of that, whaty i think I know the answer, love to hear your opinion on it. Do you think ai is AI search, I mean, whether people want to or not,
00:31:55
Speaker
Do you think it's going to really become super prevalent in the Chinese market? Do do you think like ah Chinese people are going to adopt and appreciate this new technology as much as possible? Or what do you think?
00:32:11
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. I i think that's already a trend that I heard lot of people saying that they ah use AI ah day by day, but not just the travel, that's kind of um everything if they have a question certainly if they don't you know they they don't have an answer. or Even if they have an answer, they still ask AI, say, what's AI going to say? think that's become a you know that's a phenomenon that after Chinese New Year, because during the Chinese New Year, there were a whole lot of different to the promotions for AI tours than the red pocket. and they encourage people to use AI. And I also have a number of them
00:32:58
Speaker
So the last year that the Travel Daily is published the 2025 second half year, the AI Tourism Application Train.
00:33:11
Speaker
Inside report says that for travel, it's overall 46.23% of the the people start use AI to their And the more female is 67.5% and the male is quite high. I didn't expect that amount of people already with AI to trade.
00:33:38
Speaker
i was i didn't expire to that you know that's that's that amount of people right did ai took create Yeah, I mean, it's crazy. I was speaking to a colleague of Shenzhen, who is almost 80. She showed her mother how to use AI search. And she's she now says her mother is flying. She says her mother is using it all the time.
00:34:01
Speaker
Her mother is using it for simple things like in the local city, a which park would better to go visit to on that day as opposed to the other parks, like park recommendations.
00:34:15
Speaker
I mean, so like really like for for what her needs, her requirements, she's now using it. But I must also be totally honest, like although both my parents are deceased, like I can't imagine having seen my parents adopting use of AI at 80. I just feel that China and Asia in general is a faster adopter of technology than the west i i could be wrong but but that that's just my feeling sometimes um i think that the ai is making the people that uh you know life easier i'll will say that you know sometimes i feel that i'm comparing with that answer in a few seconds i'm just uh feel oh my god it's probably my the the
00:35:08
Speaker
If you think that you are smart, but AI always gives you more answers, how do you think yourself? And also, during Chinese New Year, so their AI booked travel service, the year on year growth is 800%.
00:35:26
Speaker
And during the Chinese New Year, the The DAO, the daily active user is 73.52 million.
00:35:38
Speaker
So it's more than half of the the Chinese people that used AI app during Chinese New Year doing whatever the answer they're looking. You know, that's um it's not about the person that's adopting it. It's also about the environment. the deal that that In China, they not just ah the individual people, but the big companies, big tech companies and the government, the people that adopt the new technology.
00:36:15
Speaker
Great. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed. And if you have any more comments, please do know.