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China Tourism Tuesday Episode 32
18 Plays1 month ago
In today’s episode of China Tourism Tuesday, we sit down with Charel van Dam, Marketing Director of the Netherlands Board of Tourism and Conventions (NBTC).
We explore the past, present, and future of promoting European destinations, through the lens of the Netherlands’ tourism strategy. From what has worked before and which benchmarks have already been met, to today’s best practices and the “low-hanging fruit” still available to European tourism marketers.
The conversation places Europe squarely between China and the United States, unpacking how European destinations can position themselves in 2026’s uncertain geopolitical and economic environment; and what smart, pragmatic marketing looks like right now.
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Transcript
Introduction to China Tourism Tuesday
00:00:01
Speaker
Hello and welcome to China Tourism Tuesday, podcast where we discuss marketing international tourism destinations in the China outbound tourism market.
Guest Introduction: Charles Van Dam
00:00:11
Speaker
My name is Charles El-Bertain and I'm coming to you from Shanghai, China. And today we have a very special guest with us, Charles Van Dam, Marketing Director at Netherlands Board of Tourism and Conventions, also known as NBTC. Charles, thank you
Roles and Responsibilities at NBTC
00:00:26
Speaker
so much for joining us. Could you perhaps just please introduce yourself and provide us an overview of what your role is at NBTC?
00:00:35
Speaker
Well, good day to you both and very happy to join you today here and and happy to have my my name introduced properly. I'm indeed Charles van Damme, so good to meet another fellow Charles.
00:00:49
Speaker
um And I'm the marketing director for NBTC. And in that sense, i'm I'm responsible for business and leisure marketing activities, brand management and market intelligence.
00:01:00
Speaker
And as such, I'm responsible for NBTC's um international markets.
NBTC's History and Focus in Asia
00:01:10
Speaker
And Maybe a little bit of background could be good i've been I've been working at MBTC for around 15 years now in sort of two periods. I joined late 2003 until around in the US and Japan offices.
00:01:27
Speaker
mainly being based in the us and japan officers And then I left the company and I rejoined in 2019. Great. Thank you, Cheryl. Hi, everybody. My name is Michael Jones and I'm speaking to you from Amsterdam. So, Cheryl, to your knowledge, when and where in Asia did NBTC establish their first representation office?
00:01:50
Speaker
um And then could you also tell us a little bit more about which of the Asian markets were the most important for the NBTC when they started promoting themselves in the general Asia region?
00:02:03
Speaker
thanks Thanks, Michael. And good to hear you also from Amsterdam. um our Our first office, MBTC office, and i'm'm I'm afraid I don't know the exact establishment date, but that was our Tokyo office was our first one. And that sort of predates at least my time. So we've been been very active there. And that's been always the main base of operations for MBTC for a very long time.
00:02:29
Speaker
um Back then, we also had ah an office in Taipei within NBTC, and that one was reporting to Tokyo. And that closed in 2004 when we started up our Beijing operation.
00:02:44
Speaker
From that time on, our our main focus was Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and and China. um And the South Korea and Taiwan areas were reporting to the Japanese office. And as the years went by, slowly it was merged in that sense a little bit under the China office.
00:03:06
Speaker
And ultimately... I think it's the year like 2016, 17, 18, we extended with representations also in Indonesia and in India where we collaborated. And that was then sort of the full scope of our presence in in in Asia. um Now we're actually sort of, we've moved back all the way to the China office being our only establishment in in Asia.
00:03:38
Speaker
OK, that's really interesting. OK, thank you. all um from what i can From what I hear you're saying you saying, the China market kind of became pretty important to you guys in the mid to late sort of 2000s.
Challenges Facing NBTC in the Chinese Market
00:03:50
Speaker
Could you maybe just take us back to that time and and kind of give us a picture of what the focus was of NBTC's efforts way back in the early days when you guys were first getting into China?
00:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's you know I think back then ah in the early days, we were a run-of-the-mill DMO ge working to attract ah visitors from from China. it It started all with the ADS agreement between between China and the EU in 2004.
00:04:25
Speaker
European destinations so did, um focusing on on leisure but also business reasons and working with tour operators, doing campaigns, ah working with incentives. And I think the main the main focus for us was to get familiarity with the with the destination in in China.
00:04:47
Speaker
um And especially in those early days, we we mainly focused our efforts on spring, springtime for the Netherlands, And for many, many years, we really ah try to focus on what we call the most beautiful spring in the world, which are the coconut gardens and surrounding sort of the tulip fields that that we have.
00:05:08
Speaker
And that really, i think it back then that really helped us to gain visibility and traction just to be a little bit more single focused on a specific timing and aspect that that made us stood out.
00:05:23
Speaker
So that was, I think, the the the start for us in in China. And as as you as you look back at ah at the years, you know you know China is not the easiest market. I mean, it can present all kinds of challenges. Could you maybe give us ah an idea, you know starting from 2004 through to you know over 20 years later, um could you give us like a picture of of the greatest challenges that you guys faced as a tourism board as you were operating in the in the in the China market?
00:05:54
Speaker
um Yeah, I think ultimately ultimately it's like it's ah it's a good question. And and um I think ultimately throughout those years, it it kind of boils down to um the biggest challenge being being the knowledge gap also between the Dutch market and the Chinese market. um you know as you As you know, that the the tourism industry is a small enterprise industry. And as entrepreneurs, you you need to do many, many things. And it's um it's quite difficult to keep track of all these different markets, different needs.
00:06:31
Speaker
um And obviously the Chinese market is ah far more complex than, for example, a German or a Belgian market where we also obviously see a lot of people traveling from to to the Netherlands.
00:06:44
Speaker
Different platform, different tools, different language, different customs. It made it very, and still is, sometimes a little bit complicated to really cater um from a ah Dutch tourism perspective to these individual individual needs.
00:07:02
Speaker
um So that's, I think also for us, been throughout our operation has been a key ah key focus. And um you know i think that that we've done a nice job in that sense, um trying to figure out how to deal with this.
Success Stories and Adaptations for Chinese Tourists
00:07:23
Speaker
ah But ultimately, also for us, it's ah it's a faraway market. and And we worked with a few very dedicated partners um who were interested in the Chinese market.
00:07:35
Speaker
um And maybe to maybe to give you a good example is, is um I'm not sure if you've heard of the a village called Giethorn.
00:07:47
Speaker
but it's very popular um in China's very popular destination in the Netherlands for Chinese. And this is where you see where a group of entrepreneurs came together focused specifically on the Chinese market and catered very well to their needs. And this is how it became a success. But you do need to have that focus specifically in order to ensure that you're successful in a certain market. It would go for any market, but specifically such a faraway market as China, it it it requires a little bit of dedication and and time, obviously. And that's sometimes complicated for a lot of businesses, I think.
00:08:30
Speaker
Sorry, if you don't mind me jumping in here quickly and asking a follow-up question on that. I mean, that's fascinating. So in in terms of like the software infrastructure, so to speak, um is it a case that they invested in like Chinese-speaking guides and and things like that? or was it Or was it more on the cuisine side? Or...
00:08:53
Speaker
Do you know what i mean? It was a more of like kind of like software that needs to be developed or hardware way that was developed ah by these entrepreneurs to specifically to attract Chinese tourists to that particular town.
00:09:05
Speaker
Yeah, a good you know good question. And and I think i think they they did all of it in that sense. So um ah you need all those products in place still, but ah especially in the beginning, you know you need to cater with specific restaurants, specific ah ways of payment, language availability, guides and everything else. Otherwise, it really wouldn't work.
00:09:30
Speaker
I would say Now the market has changed and and much more catering also to individual visitors also from China. And there's lots of tools and apps to help overcome certain barriers. But back then it it you know it had to do with dedication, but also with building relationships. I think um i think the entrepreneurs there really understood what it takes to work the China market and to build up relationship and to build up trust.
00:10:02
Speaker
um And someone like Gabrielle Esselbrugge from Giethoorn, she was sort of a figurehead as well in in in China. And she she paved the way, I think, together with the other entrepreneurs for
Promotional Activities and Digital Strategies
00:10:14
Speaker
for a lot of success. But it's it's i feel okay I feel also its dedication you know from there to the to the market specifically is is important. And that's that's also been sort of a guide for us as in BTC.
00:10:29
Speaker
you know We entered in 2004 and we have remained also throughout you know the complicated COVID times. We've always been active in a different way, obviously, but but we remain remained active. And i think that's important.
00:10:45
Speaker
when you do business with China to to showcase also that you're in there for the long run. <unk>d I'd like to kind of follow up a bit on those, um you know on on the question of of maybe as many nuts and bolts as you can go into in terms of details. and But could you maybe give us an idea of the promotional activities that um NBTC has employed in China through the years, be it from you know digital or sort of sales, if you could give us an overview of that maybe?
00:11:15
Speaker
um I will i' in um ah i would ah would have loved to have my my dear and trusted colleague, Eddie Young, here, for for who's been with us since 2004 as a representative in in Beijing. He would know everything, but obviously I can share a few few highlights in that sense. I already mentioned the Kochenhof Gardens promotion, which we did early on. um That was probably more
00:11:49
Speaker
regular activity in terms of a lot of promotion working with tour operators. I think what we did um also in those early days is to launch a Holland travel expert platform where we had around, I think, ultimately around 10,000 Holland travel experts who had passed our online courses you know and could win certificates over those those years.
00:12:14
Speaker
um And those operators who had you know many experts would get priority and support in terms of product development and joint promotions. So that that worked well for us in the in the early days, really teaming up with with the local local industry.
00:12:30
Speaker
think in the later years, and that's what I know, you know you know then I'm talking broadly from 2017, 18, 19, eighteen seventeen eighteen nineteen we we shifted our our activities um a lot to to social media. So we did a lot of celebrity trips working with movie stars.
00:12:52
Speaker
um And a lot of times, because we're not we're not a heavily funded um NTO, so what we did a lot of times is is working on exchange bases. We quickly realized that creating the right amount of content for us as well as for movie stars or any celebrities active on social media.
00:13:17
Speaker
That content was was was key. So what we what we tended to do is that we awarded um certain key opinion leaders with Holland Travel Ambassador Awards, our Holland Travel Friends. allowing them to use that image for for their own content. And as a return, you know we would get them to the Netherlands and ah we would ensure that they would end up in publications by associated media.
00:13:49
Speaker
So that was actually ah kind of a barter deal that we we had in place, which which worked well. And
Strategic Partnerships and Focus Shift
00:13:56
Speaker
I think at the end, um now and we we're no longer working with that, is that...
00:14:02
Speaker
we had a lot of multi-channel networks with ah with a large key opinion leader pool working on multiple channel networks and and ensuring that we were able to distribute the right type of content that would fit with us as well as the the key opinion leader. so I think that's maybe a little bit of an overview of some of the activities that we've we've done. and And I think there were other things as well, but not necessarily just specifically that worked for tourism.
00:14:31
Speaker
There was, for example, a strategic partnership with Allytrip. I think that's now called Fliggy. um where we had an online Dutch ah product dashboard and collection that had been produced by Fliggy for easy access for visitors to buy Netherlands-included products. And that wasn't specifically just geared towards tourism, but we participated also as an organisation in a much wider effort from that perspective.
00:15:04
Speaker
And I think ultimately is that we we we started to scale back a little bit in terms of ah promotional activities. And we started slowly changing into what we called ultimately a China lab. Again, sort of moving back to focusing on that knowledge gap that we talked about before is actually trying to figure out how bringing actually partners to China and to have them experience the Chinese market. Because I don't think a lot of people realize that the size and scope um in China, they're very different than in the Netherlands. um And
00:15:48
Speaker
personally, but that that's that's me, is that, you know, you can you can you you you you can tell me that it's the case, but unless you go there and experience for yourself, you're you will not understand or grasp the the the differences. So what we tended to do is actually get people, partners over to China to experience how things were changing in China. And we started more focusing on um knowledge and even business models and how digital infrastructures were changing.
00:16:22
Speaker
um We were inviting key opinion leaders to the Netherlands and we would host round table discussions to have key opinion leaders tell our partners how they experienced the destination and how they could be better cater actually to a Chinese traveler. So um ultimately for us, we felt that the key to being successful in the market, you wasn't so much promotion, but much more about enabling our partners to deliver a good product and and and good service.
00:16:56
Speaker
that's That's very, very interesting, actually, because you know you you've kind of mentioned, um I think, what a lot of tourism boards and and what a lot of sort of marketing destination organizations would would look at as sort of ah as as part of the menu, you know, TO o expert certifications, multi-channel network collabs and barters with celebrities, you know the the marketing agreements with the big platforms, be they C-Trip or Fliggy. um And then also, you know, the, you know, bringing suppliers to China and bringing KOLs to actually experience. um I was wondering if you could maybe, you know, overall, because we do have other decision makers from other tourism boards listening in.
00:17:34
Speaker
um I was wondering if you could maybe stack rank these different approaches in terms of how well do you think um they actually work for the China market maybe over the next 10 years, um you know maybe assuming that the economy changes a little bit. But yeah, which which in a nutshell, which one do you think works best?
00:17:57
Speaker
I'm turning a little silent now. that's ah that's ah that's um That's a good question, but I'm not sure I have the proper answer. i know i the The thing is, is especially you know um if it's with regards to other destinations, I think what I've learned over the many years is that each NTO is different, has different goals, different targets um and different needs. So it's it's very difficult to sort sort of come up with one answer that that will potentially help anyone. I think for us,
00:18:35
Speaker
What changed, um obviously a a lot of us get funding from our government um and it we're very dependent, I would say, on the targets that are being set by by our financiers. For us, what what changed is that ah luckily, 2019, we longer had to ah nineteen um we no longer had to trying to prove how many people we would actually get to the destination.
00:19:07
Speaker
um And we were allowed to actually much more focus on the benefits for the destination and what would be good. Not so much focus on you know X amount of arrivals, X amount of of value of incoming visitors.
00:19:23
Speaker
And I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit later, but that that sort of changed things for us. And that allowed us to look at the market a little bit differently. We now look at China as a market that we can learn from a lot.
00:19:36
Speaker
um And even though we don't necessarily know what we're learning at the moment or or knowing how to apply. you know i think a lot of us also in the market, you know we work with Redbook and all these other platforms that that you know We don't operate here or our our European markets you know don't work with that. So the systems are are very different and it's difficult to translate those learnings into something that you can apply here. but you know I vividly remember starting my career within the 2003 in New York office. And I think it was 2006 when the iPhone was introduced.
00:20:16
Speaker
Um, we were one of the first ones to have a Holland app, uh, you know, all these types of things. And that was really the place to be in terms of where new developments came from. I think that shifted, you know, as important to us market is, I think a lot of it has shifted also to China. you might not be able to apply it but it's um but that's the interesting part of it and um in the coming 10 years it also all depends on on those targets if you if you're if you're interested in in attracting more and ah visitors from china then i would say that you you're still uh well off targeting
00:21:00
Speaker
a lot of the digital media channels and and more diving into niche communities and trying to, you know, that fit with your with your brand and your positioning and trying to see if you can you can link your destination to, you know,
00:21:21
Speaker
to those to those to those niches, I think that that's still a very valid way way to move forward. um But I think it's also getting it's also getting crowded in the in the area. Obviously, um when we started in 2003, probably a lot of Chinese, they were interested in international travel. They were interested in traveling to Europe. And what we've seen over the past years is that they've They've also shifted a little bit to more regional travel. And there's a lot of Chinese um destinations that are fighting for the attention of the travelers. And so there's a lot of competition, I think, in in China, also for European destinations.
00:22:07
Speaker
yeah That's really fascinating. I mean, Shoril, you and I had ah ah had ah a brief chat the other day, and that's something I would like to expand on a little bit more on today's episode. You already hinted at it a little bit about how in 2019 onwards, we weren't required to show arrival numbers and things like that anymore. So it sounds like there was a bit of a strategic shift for NBTC. So let's Let's just broaden out away from China and Asia for a moment at least.
00:22:40
Speaker
um how How is the current NBTC's strategy structured? Is there a new kind of global strategy that you have at your organization? And um what are kind of like the guiding
NBTC's Perspective 2030 Strategy
00:22:56
Speaker
principles of it? Just just like a a brief overview, if that's the case.
00:23:01
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, you know we we together with the, actually a lot of partners in the sectors, we launched ah ah something that we called Perspective 2030 in late 2018. And actually it was that um sort of leading principle that enticed me to actually move back to NBTC because it just had a very different premise than what we've been working on.
00:23:33
Speaker
up to that point. And it's still for us is our is our is our leading principle. And that perspective 2030, you know, was all about the changing role of tourism um and the sustainable development of the Netherlands as a destination. And in this um ah vision, it prioriti prioritizes common interests of visitors, businesses, and local residents. And I think that was one of the main shifts is that This is where we saw local residents um or residents actually come into play a little bit more than than what we've done before, um with the ultimate goal to ensure that tourism would contribute to the prosperity and well-being of all Dutch people. That was the the end game in that sense. And what changed is that we said ah tourism is a means to an end. It's not a goal in itself. um
00:24:31
Speaker
And this was launched, as mentioned, in 2018. And that was sort of the height of the over-tourism debate, especially obviously focused on on Amsterdam.
00:24:42
Speaker
um And there was also a projected doubling or a double-digit growth, actually, by UN tourism of international travel in 2030.
00:24:54
Speaker
um So for us, and I think for the whole sector, we looked at that and thought, okay, so... if we're actually moving, and that was the idea by 2030 to 60 million visits domestically and international, how are we going to make that fit?
00:25:12
Speaker
Like, which issues are we going to run into? And we could already obviously see some issues in the city of Amsterdam. So from from that context back then, um we identified five priorities looking at balancing ah benefits and burdens.
00:25:34
Speaker
So ensuring that there are more benefits from tourism than them burdens. Ensuring that the Netherlands as a whole is an attractive destination. So putting more cities and regions on the map as attractive destinations. So working on familiarity with a wider product range for that matter.
00:25:53
Speaker
Accessibility. So um if people know you know Where to go, are they actually able to get there ah easily and understandably?
00:26:05
Speaker
Sustainability was was a big thing, obviously. um Creating a living environment with less waste and pollution, which obviously the tourism sector contributes to as well.
00:26:17
Speaker
And working on a hospitable industry, um the Netherlands as a welcoming destination, as well as um a vital sector for people to find their careers in and their jobs in.
00:26:32
Speaker
um And I think looking at a strategy for MBTC itself is is what I just mentioned was much more for the the whole of the sector. And our corporate strategy looks much more at at which parts do we have have the expertise for to contribute. um And this is also way too much for us to handle as an organization. um And it is a wide sector-wide effort anyway. So along those five, um ah pillars where we're trying to work and and collaborate to make progress towards that well-being and prosperity for all Dutch people.
00:27:13
Speaker
And that's Perspective 2030, so that's already there in a few years. And as of next year, we've just recently announced that we'll be launching Perspective 2040. So we need another dot on the horizon because we're you know six, seven years ahead. And it's obviously also after a COVID period.
00:27:36
Speaker
So it's it's time to recalibrate um that strategy, even though all the things that are in there are still very valid today.
00:27:49
Speaker
Wow, I've got so many follow-up questions from that, it's not even funny. But I'll try and keep it minimized. um So the first thing I wanted to ask is, do you know if there's other European countries, or do you know of any other countries that are taking like a a similar approach, number one? Number two, like could you maybe give a a little bit of a brief overview of how the strategy was developed? i mean Was it a bunch of consultants that came in, a bunch of MBA guys, or or was it like through consensus of speaking to various ah stakeholders in the Netherlands, whether it be residents and
00:28:31
Speaker
how are entrepreneurs of restaurants and hotels and things like that? How has the approach gone about? if you don't mind me asking. Yeah, no, of course. um I think there are a few destinations that definitely have um similar strategies.
00:28:51
Speaker
yeah Our good friends at Tourism Flanders visit Denmark have have a similar focus. um and And I'm sure there are other destinations as well. i think you you'll you'll probably see it a little bit more um on local level. So a lot of cities or regions ah would have this approach as well, or they would even go beyond ah this in terms of regenerative tourism etc i think our our principle back then you know wasn't that far ahead in terms of of those terms so i i do think that you uh you see it uh more and more but you know there's also i would say a difference between
00:29:35
Speaker
um you know having something on paper and also actually acting accordingly i think think we're one, especially when we looked at sustainability, we were one of the few or maybe the only, I don't know, my knowledge doesn't go that far, one of the only destinations that actually also took that into account in looking at our market scope um in terms of where are we active. And think one of the main things we did is that we where you really looked at the market
00:30:10
Speaker
Our main challenge for us ah as a destination is visitor distribution, so making people more aware of other areas and that they were not familiar with, so to ensure better distribution of visits and therefore also making sure that the benefits of tourism would would fall on a wider wider area.
00:30:32
Speaker
um So for leisure marketing activities, we adjusted our market scope and we're only active in the UK, Belgium and Germany, because we know those markets to be the best distributors, if you if you will, because they're more familiar with the destination. And this is also where to sort of maybe relate it back to China a little bit is we've stopped focusing our efforts in terms of promotional activities on um source markets that would predominantly be still first time visitors because first time visitors will go to the highlights.
00:31:14
Speaker
That's, I mean, not all of them will do that, but most of them will go to the highlights and those highlights in the Netherlands, as in many other European destinations are heavily crowded. um so we we we we certainly did adjust our scope also accordingly.
00:31:31
Speaker
And in terms of how actually this vision came about, at that point, we didn in that we didn't include residents in in in and actually creating the the story. We did include I think around 150 key players in in the Dutch industry. you know Also consultants who were involved to to assist in the process, um but a lot of it had to do with um discussions within the industry, within with key players, with large corporations, with small entrepreneurs in the tourism industry, from local DMOs to governments,
00:32:15
Speaker
um involving them in their vision for for the for the future. And if you will, the you know the perspective 2030 is, I would say, a consensus of within the industry of where i things need to go.
00:32:31
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, naturally, i mean You correctly say about how just before the pandemic, at least Amsterdam was at its height over tourism.
00:32:42
Speaker
Post-COVID, I seemingly can't open a newspaper on a daily basis without seeing some kind of protest somewhere in Europe for over tourism. It's an incredibly, incredibly hot topic in this part of the world, clearly.
Focus on Nearby Markets and Budget Adjustments
00:32:56
Speaker
But but then on the other hand,
00:32:59
Speaker
We work a lot with developing countries who well they don't have over-tourism issues, where at least many of them, most of them, are not complaining about it. and ah so I just wanted to bring back to or amplify what you were talking about a little bit earlier. so For MBTC, with its new strategy, it's mostly focus all exclusively focused for the leisure tourism market at all at least. for Belgium, Germany, and the UK. And so that's extremely close to home.
00:33:34
Speaker
um So does does that therefore imply that from the principles of accessibility, sustainability, and things like that, that that that Asia is going to take a bit of ah a back row seat when it comes to marketing activities with MBTC? I'm assuming that that's that's what it means.
00:33:57
Speaker
No, you're absolutely correct. um And for us, it also had to you know has to do with available budgets and and market scope. And also in in terms of what we talked about before is that the ability of of the industry to to cater to all these ah different source markets um where we see that, you know,
00:34:23
Speaker
um it'ss it's It's really difficult to excel trying to cater to a lot of different source markets. I think if you look at the Netherlands and if you look at the DMO infrastructure on a local and and regional level, um I would argue that 80% is actually only focused on the domestic market. And there's 20% that focuses on the international market and the the The majority of that only focuses on one international market, and that would be mostly Germany.
00:35:00
Speaker
um And then comes Belgium, then comes UK, and then there's a whole bunch of other countries. And I think it's also good to understand is that um you know with these sort of four markets so domestic Germany Belgium and the UK you would cover around 85 percent of arrivals of visits of overnight visits um so if you if you you know by catering to those four markets you you cover 85 percent of your your customer base I think you're doing a pretty pretty good job so
00:35:38
Speaker
for For most of the businesses there is, um i would say, little reason potentially to to expand into other markets. And and you know while I say that obviously there's lots of businesses in the Netherlands, also in Amsterdam, that have a much wider ah range of of target groups and they're more dependent on international visits, on more markets.
00:36:01
Speaker
um and And we can still see, obviously, that they are still very active in these markets. There are still partners that are active in the Chinese market on on a promotional level.
00:36:12
Speaker
um It is also just that we have been redirecting our efforts to see where our budgets and capacity can make the most most impact. yeah so i mean Again, also just to follow up on this, I find this i do find this approach like absolutely fascinating. As I mentioned, ah it does sound like truly what the ndf MBA folk talk about as a purpose-driven strategy.
00:36:41
Speaker
I'm not sure how many countries actually take these things seriously.
Changing Perceptions and Post-COVID Travel Behavior
00:36:46
Speaker
I do think it's pretty cool that the Netherlands does take it pretty seriously, though, i mean for the for the reasons that you pointed out. I mean, do do you also think that there was maybe possibly also... possibly I'm not saying connected to the strategy, but maybe just in the marketplace, that there's still maybe misconceptions about the Asian markets? Like, for example, absolutely. I do believe pre-pandemic, a lot of people were thinking about the the groups of 20, 30 people, person walking with a flag in front, absolutely doing the first time things only, not yeah not not particularly luxury and stuff like that. and
00:37:30
Speaker
And then when over-tourism really became an issue after post-pandemic, I'm also just curious whether whether a business or whether stakeholders have a fear of for like like hordes of Asians coming, like buses and buses of them, and this is just going to make the situation untenable.
00:37:50
Speaker
Whereas in reality, absolutely from the Chinese point of view, that that has changed. ah smaller groups, it is three-generational families travelling together, or or just parents with their kids travelling together with their friends. Much, much smaller and definitely more tailor-made, so to speak.
00:38:11
Speaker
do Do you think there are they all these perception gaps in the market? oh Oh, definitely. Definitely. I think every, well, not every target, you know, source market has a specific reputation, but but there are a few strong ones out there. And i do think that um there is an outdated view of the Chinese traveler with a lot of people. I'm i'm not sure whether that's the case within the sort of travel professionals. I think they'rere they're very well aware how things have changed. But I think in general, the public um and and the public has a has a large voice in the over-tourism debate. I think the public still sort of links China to
00:39:02
Speaker
indeed as you mentioned huge groups with uh someone with a little flag or something like that that that's going through the narrow streets of of amsterdam and i think um i think that has changed i think the the the you know that model also i feel no longer applies i think what i understand at least also from the chinese market is also the large tour operators that used to host all these large groups a lot of them are either no longer there or they operate on a different model. I think COVID changed changed a lot. in it And at the same time, I think China um grew up very quickly in terms of of travel and travel behavior, travel needs. So I think you see a lot of
00:39:48
Speaker
individual travelers, small groups, you see that more and more. But I think still people tend to think um ah that you know large groups, China, we we cannot be active in that market because we'll attract large groups. And therefore, there is a bit of a stigma, if you will. And in that sense, it's our job as well as NBTC to to change that. similar to how we're trying to actively um show that, for example, the British market doesn't live up to always its reputation. the the British have a reputation of, um well, maybe partying a little bit too hard in in in Amsterdam. um
00:40:37
Speaker
But you would see also here, we're talking about a very small minority. um And there are millions of of Brits coming to the Netherlands and um they're all they're not all partying hard. that's That's just not the case. But there's, you know, in essence, it's always the case that there's a small group that sort of um creates an image that that yeah potentially no longer and is debt is there. and and And I do think indeed the Chinese market
00:41:08
Speaker
has changed similar to the Japanese market as well. They also used to travel in large groups. They still do that in a way, but there's also much more individual travel, um different way of consuming the product. and One of the things also you you don't see, you don't you don't see any discussions anymore in the news about ah big groups.
00:41:31
Speaker
thats that's That's gone. Yeah, totally. That's actually quite quite instinctive. And ah do you see... So, I mean, desert does it create...
00:41:49
Speaker
I don't know, a sense of more practical working within the NBTC, knowing that that your KPIs are actually more aligned with what the local stakeholders want, as opposed to I don't know, some heavy CMO giving crazy spend targets, rival targets, things like that. I mean, from from your own professional career point of view, um does, that I don't know, does it does it make your daily life more enjoyable for work?
New Challenges in Sustainable Tourism
00:42:26
Speaker
Yeah. better responsibility or or more frustration. i don't know. i mean I mean, again, we joked about this a little bit the other day, but like, again, other other markets that, again, in other markets, or other markets that all countries are different and got their own things. um I can't imagine them
00:42:48
Speaker
purposefully turning off a higher spending tap, so as to speak. um Because it just won't work. they They're going to lose their job if they do that. kind of things so so So yeah, just tell me about like career work like within NBTC and and according to the principles and strategies that you guys have got. and Do you think it works? and I'm assuming it does, but yeah please give me your thoughts.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah, no. I'm trying to figure out if it if it makes me frustrated more or not. it it it It doesn't necessarily alleviate the pressure. It's just a different type of pressure. I think i think sometimes we don't realize um in what a luxurious position we are within the travel industry. it's it It seems like it's the ever-growing industry. you know In a in a sense,
00:43:41
Speaker
we can say, well, we don't have to promote the destination because we know people are going to come anyway. And, you know, I think that that is the case. Our behavior as humans has changed in favor of more travel. People want to travel more.
00:44:00
Speaker
um And um for us as a mature destination, we don't have to worry that much in terms of will enough people come. um Obviously, you know there potentially is a crisis um coming up and and you know the US is one of our major source markets as well, especially also on on on the business event side of things, but also a lot of leisure travel.
00:44:27
Speaker
um the US has become quite unpredictable. um And um with it um pri you know with with with that in mind, it could very well be the case that something comes out of of the US market that will change travel behavior. And then our our fourth market will nosedive, not just for us, but probably for everyone. And then obviously,
00:44:54
Speaker
we're not in a luxurious position anymore. and And that will also mean, obviously, for us that we will probably ramp up promotionist promotions as well. But for now, the the challenge for for myself and for my team, MBTC has changed from um attracting more to trying to get the right traveller at the right place at the right time.
00:45:23
Speaker
um Which means that you know our our our destination definitely is is able to to handle all these incoming travelers. um There is no issue with capacity, if you will. There is an issue with distribution. So certain people come at the same time to the same place. And um this is where we're we're trying to get you know smarter in terms of the promotions that we do and and and trying to figure out how to
00:45:57
Speaker
um stimulate people making different decisions. um And that could be on the one side by informing them better to allow them to make better decisions.
00:46:09
Speaker
There's a large group of travelers that enjoys being in very busy times with a lot of other people. And there's a lot of and grown group of people that isn't interested in in visiting the same place when when 1000s of others are there, and they need to be handed the instruments themselves to to allow them to make those decisions. so So the need I think from a marketing promotion side of things, um we're still very needed as an organization.
00:46:44
Speaker
it just The work just becomes a little bit different. So that there don't worry, there's enough challenge for me still as as a professional working at a national tourism office.
00:46:56
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds, i must say, i was hoping for you to give me an easy answer, saying that no life is a lot more relaxed, but it actually sounds like you and your team's work is fair amount more complicated now, which is also very fascinating.
Van Dam's Personal Travel Experiences
00:47:15
Speaker
um that is Thank you so much for your time, Cheryl. I think you have given us enough of your time have been very gracious. This has been really interesting to learn from you.
00:47:28
Speaker
Our last and final quick question is more of a like ah a fun tradition. um We would like you to name probably yeah let's keep it simple at this time, your one favorite destination internationally as a tourist yourself, and your one favorite destination in China as a tourist for yourself?
00:47:50
Speaker
Oh, good questions, good questions. um i'm i'm I'm such a fan of travel. um So that I've been to many places, and and I always have difficulty ah naming favorites. And it's not me just saying that. But...
00:48:07
Speaker
In terms of a destination I really was very surprised about actually was Iran. um might not Might not be a popular destination right now, um but I traveled there in 2016 when you know tensions were were way less than than how they are now. and somehow you know because of um media exposure i expected maybe to to to find myself in an unwelcoming country just just because of you know how how it's positioned yeah um and there was such great hospitality people were so so friendly and they were so so proud to
00:48:58
Speaker
show their country and their land and their treasures. And they were so happy that people took an effort to to to come. So that was such a different experience than than you know when going in. And it was easy to travel um throughout the country and you know such great cultural treasures to to explore and admire. I really felt very welcome. So that that was maybe sort of the the biggest difference between expectation and experience. And that's why it's sort of sticks in my mind. I was out there for five weeks and it was, it was, it was a very memorable trip. um sounds amazing
00:49:45
Speaker
In China, um in China, I, you know I once did a, did a, trip, and um I know I'm going to pronounce all the names incorrectly, so I do apologize front.
00:50:02
Speaker
But I started Dunhuang in China, and I think that's the the western end of the the Chinese wall.
00:50:12
Speaker
um And then I made my way back to the east, I think, Jiayuan, Lanjiao, um and you know, Xi'an, sort of that sort of area. And I felt it was it was it was magical because there were not a lot of international travelers there. This is where I found myself still, you know, clocking like a chicken to try and make people understand that I wanted chicken and nothing else. So there was this of real traveler experience and also there a lot of hospitality and
00:50:48
Speaker
um i think dunwall also culturally was very interesting uh the with ah the the caves um and um i would say the long men grottos uh was i think also one of my favorite places to to travel to um and there's still many many more in china that um uh on my calendar as such a vast country and i also do believe that uh um travel to China will will increase in the future because I think the world hasn't seen yet what it really has to has to offer.
00:51:28
Speaker
I wholeheartedly concur and I'm quite jealous because I've never been to Dunhuang. It's always been pretty much top five of my list. Just didn't manage to make it. But yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your insights, your career, your strategy, your thoughts, your passions with us today,
Conclusion and Farewell
00:51:44
Speaker
Charo. We truly, truly appreciate it. And yeah, we look forward to possibly speaking to you in the future again. But thank you for your time and have a good day. My my absolute pleasure. Thanks for for having me. It's been ah it's been a pleasure discussing um our strategy and and also the relations with ah with China and the Chinese market. So certainly like to keep the conversation going.
00:52:07
Speaker
But again, thanks for having me on the show. If you have any questions or comments about the topics discussed in today's episode, please feel free to send us an email at marketing at cconsulting.com.cn or search us on LinkedIn at Create Consulting.
00:52:20
Speaker
We look forward to hearing