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China Tourism Tuesday Episode 24
12 Plays14 days ago
Today, we chat with Harriet Owalla, a Kenyan travel journalist and African tourism expert.
We dive into how Chinese tourism to Africa might unfold, and share our latest research showing East Africa’s travel brand on Rednote is strong - while Southern Africa lags behind, and West & Central African travel brands are just emerging.
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Transcript
Introduction to China Tourism Tuesday
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello and welcome to China Tourism Tuesday, discussion of marketing international destinations in the outbound China tourism market. My name is Charles Bataigne and I'm coming to you from Shanghai, China.
00:00:14
Speaker
And today we have a guest with us all the way from Kenya, Nairobi.
Meet Harriet Owalla
00:00:19
Speaker
Harriet Owalla, a journalist and tourism expert. Harriet, thank you so much for joining us on today's show. I was wondering if you could maybe just give our listeners a quick intro of who you are and what you do.
00:00:34
Speaker
so thanks, guys, for the platform and the opportunity to actually do this. So my name is Harriet Owalla. um I'm a travel journalist based in Nairobi.
00:00:46
Speaker
So I've written on travel for the past eight years, both locally and internationally, just focusing on um you know Africa, Kenya, East Africa. So I'm the East African correspondent in tourism update.
00:01:04
Speaker
And yeah, that's that's just a nutshell of who I am, um of who I am in a nutshell. um I also have also participated in panel discussions on, you know, media and, you know, tourism in Africa.
00:01:18
Speaker
So yeah.
00:01:21
Speaker
Great. Thank you, Harriet.
Impact of Red Note on African Tourism
00:01:23
Speaker
um If I could just quickly jump in with the first first question here, because it's fresh in my mind, because we've just done a bunch of research on how Red Note perceives Africa from a travel perspective. Now, just for those of you who who don't know, um Red Note is possibly China's most important social media platform. And the reason for that is It has all of the, shall we say, the first tier, younger, more influential, wealthier travelers, consumers, decision makers. They all sort of really stick to Red Note. And they are very much the tastemakers for the rest of the country. So just ah just a note on that.
00:02:07
Speaker
So Harriet, we did some we did some analysis on on you know African tourism and which countries, which reasons kind of which regions kind of do the best.
Kenya's Rise in Chinese Tourism
00:02:17
Speaker
And i think Michael and myself, as South Africans, we were both um slightly ah disconcerted by the results, which is that East Africa leads Southern Africa by about a factor of 10 in terms of how China's most influential consumers see Africa. And of course, you know, let me just put up the results over here. We got Mauritius tourism right up front. um
00:02:44
Speaker
We got Kenya. No, sorry. Kenya is right up front. it's yeah we yeah It's the most well known African tourism destination. 481 historical million views, followed by Tanzania 346 million views.
00:03:02
Speaker
I wanted to just check in with you because it's always good to have, you know, some qualitative data with our quantitative data. Does this make sense to you? Are you seeing truckloads, busloads of Chinese tourists coming in?
00:03:15
Speaker
What's your perspective on these numbers?
Challenges for South Africa in Attracting Chinese Tourists
00:03:18
Speaker
So, thanks so much for, you know, the question. And also, yeah the report that you guys released is really informative, especially during this time when, you know, Africa is,
00:03:31
Speaker
targeting you know the Chinese market and they need to know you know what China wants, you know who are the you know which are the segments which are traveling and everything. And looking at Kenya leading, it's not a surprise because um um my country has really been working on you know um bringing in Chinese choice. a choice We've seen them partner with with the media houses, you know making Kenya, ah like making the Kenya destination ah known to the Chinese people.
00:04:03
Speaker
And during this year, um i I was in Durban during the festival and I met some of the Chinese operators who were invited and they said um the reason why South Africa is you know, ah lagging behind is because of access.
00:04:21
Speaker
You know, that's the first thing. Even though this the South African government is actually doing investing a lot to ensure the visa regulations with China is okay, to ensure you have a direct flight.
00:04:35
Speaker
So I think access is one of the most um key things.
Benefits of Geographical Proximity for Kenya and Tanzania
00:04:40
Speaker
In Kenya, we have a direct flight to China. so And also the visa is not that we restrictive.
00:04:47
Speaker
And the fact that, you know, also the awareness. So the key issues that they raised were the awareness, because most, ah they say, most Chinese travelers perceive Africa as an unsafe place.
00:04:59
Speaker
So the more countries, you know, open up their spaces, the more countries, like, create awareness of their destinations, the more Chinese will come. And, you know, Kenya is known for wildlife. so Yeah, I don't know if I've asked the question, but I think I do want to kind of follow up a little bit on that. And um if I look at all the the countries in East Africa, the the logic becomes quite clear to me from in that, you know, Chinese travel agencies, they surely they want to package many destinations together.
00:05:32
Speaker
And it seems to me that, you know, you, Kenya is so easy to, well, I suppose it's relatively easy to bundle in with maybe the Gulf states with Dubai,
00:05:43
Speaker
And then they loop over into Kenya. They do Madagascar, perhaps Ethiopia. It's just I feel like you guys have a slight unfair disadvantage maybe because um geographically speaking, public yes you can cover many, many destinations with great, honestly, great attractions.
00:06:02
Speaker
Yes.
00:06:04
Speaker
Yes, that's what I think as well. um You know, being we are actually The flights are the issue because can you imagine traveling from China to South Africa? It takes like a whole day to get there.
00:06:19
Speaker
So ah yeah I think connectivity also is a key issue because the when you're far down there, it's hard for even like someone who just hear South Africa and they're like, oh, you know, it's too far.
00:06:35
Speaker
But for Kenya, that geographical advantage is for Kenya and Tanzania, the geographical advantage really makes you know, it makes it easier for china Chinese
Overcoming Language Barriers for Chinese Tourists
00:06:48
Speaker
travelers to come in. And also the fact that also our tour operators, you know, majority of them right now are currently learning Chinese as well.
00:06:56
Speaker
And we arere having even many more Chinese tour agents in in Kenya who can actually handle them because that too is a factor. um Majority,
00:07:08
Speaker
don't understand English or they do, but you know, it's not so fluent. So having someone also who can take them through the safaris, you know, explain to them stuff. Also, that is a contributing factor, I think, apart from just the geography.
00:07:24
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, just I want to just ask one more question quickly from my side. um You mentioned that that in Kenya, you guys are working really hard on training Mandarin-speaking guides.
00:07:38
Speaker
and Could you give us a number of, you know, ah is it a government policy or is it just more that there's a lot of demand? um How are you seeing that translate into reality in Kenya? So I can't ah give the numbers, like how many tour guides have been... um have been trained so far, but by what I know is that the tour guides associations, most of the travel agents associations are actually you know um having these trainings.
00:08:07
Speaker
um And you can see like even in advertisements, you know um most tour guides like know a number of languages, which actually places them at that advantage of you know um attracting these Chinese travelers. It's not a government policy,
00:08:23
Speaker
but at associations levels, you know, at a personal level, we are seeing more and more tour guides, you know, taking the initiatives. And also like um the Chinese ah embassy in Kenya also, you know, has a lot of initiatives even with tourism and stuff. So I see many tour agents, many tour operators, you know, ah taking advantage of these programs to, you know, ah to,
00:08:52
Speaker
to learn Chinese, to know what the market wants, you know, to, um ah yeah, and to advance themselves in that. So, yeah, that's what what i feel is, yeah.
Ethiopia's Appeal to Chinese Tourists
00:09:05
Speaker
yeah yeah I want to also ask you about another very you know um sort of rising ah tourism economy in in what is classified as the East Africa region, and that is Ethiopia. Now, based in Shanghai, and um you know when I'm in Beijing and when I go to these travel fairs, I always see Ethiopia is really pushing very hard. And i i'm I'm sure you guys are aware of Ethiopia as yes as ah not a competitor, but as also a a a significant other power for tourism in the East Africa region. Not that they could ever compete with you guys on on wildlife, for example.
00:09:47
Speaker
But what are your thoughts on you know the future of, for example, China and Ethiopia tourism? i think um I think it's great because Ethiopia is pushing herself. They don't have wildlife, but they have history, they have culture, um and they're also big on mice, especially in Addis.
00:10:09
Speaker
they have They really are you know going ahead with you know strengthening their mice position in the region. So I see the future the future is positive for Ethiopia with regards to that.
00:10:22
Speaker
like the they They're saying, you know, I wish we had like a regional, you know, marketing strategy, which we have, but it's it's just dormant because Kenya could use their wildlife, you know, um Ethiopia could have their culture and their mice strategies, you know, every part of us would, you know, showcase their strengths so that we all share in this, you know, this market, the Chinese market.
00:10:51
Speaker
So once they land in Ethiopia, they could come to, or once they land in Kenya, they can go to Ethiopia and vice versa. So, but i I feel Ethiopia is, Ethiopia has has has a positive, ah when it comes to the the Chinese market, Ethiopia is, how do I put it?
00:11:14
Speaker
ah Ethiopia has positioned itself well to attract them. um Yeah, that's what I feel.
Tanzania's Major Attractions
00:11:21
Speaker
But they are very strong in culture, ah which will work for them, and history.
00:11:28
Speaker
Yeah. And mice, which also, that like the business-minded Chinese people are coming to Africa for that as well. So that can be a plus.
00:11:41
Speaker
Harold, if you don't mind me asking, I would like to add on to a follow-up question with that for your neighbor to the south, Tanzania. um Similar questions.
00:11:52
Speaker
So from from my understanding, Tanzania has got to like ah like the triple jewel of a crown. that they've They've got the wildlife. They've got Mount Kilimanjaro. They've got Zanzibar.
00:12:05
Speaker
or at least the way I understand it in the Chinese market, all those three are quite attractive. yeah Is anything that I'm missing out there or how do you also feel about Tanzania as being add on to Kenya or standalone in terms of outbound tourism? In terms of what they have, I think ah Tanzania and Kenya have similar tourism products.
00:12:32
Speaker
It's just that Tanzania is larger. than Kenya, because we share the Serengeti ecosystem, the Serengeti Masai Mara, but also culture. Tanzania too has culture.
00:12:45
Speaker
So you can add that as well. The Swahili culture in Zandi Banodos, the beach. And also um I can say, yeah, ah also they're pushing so hard for, you know, gastronomy, like gastro tourism as well.
00:13:04
Speaker
um in terms of diversity diversification that too can be added but when it comes to tourism products I think we are similar we are similar it says Tanzania is larger and of course the two countries can't be the same so every country like even if it's wildlife it has a different setup when it comes to landscape there's a different animal behavior you know but
00:13:35
Speaker
ah yeah Those are the three um strong points for Tanzania culture, wildlife and the beach.
00:13:47
Speaker
yeah And now food, like they want to push on to visitors' understanding, like going for gastronomy tours and stuff. Yeah, and considering that probably the the vast majority of Chinese outbound tourists to East Africa would probably at the maximum at a maximum have two weeks. There would probably be more something like home one week, ten days, two weeks. of course, you are going to get other people that have time for three weeks, four weeks.
00:14:19
Speaker
but but like on average of about two weeks. so What would you suggest as an itinerary, possibly including Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania, um that would fit into like a two-week period?
00:14:34
Speaker
Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania? Yeah. so um So, in Ethiopia, of course, they can explore Addis. i I always feel um Most tourists, when they come to countries, they neglect the town, the cities, because they feel like, oh, it's just a city, but there's so much that people can do in cities.
00:14:56
Speaker
So um I think that should just exploring Nairobi, exploring Addis, you know, exploring Dar, just to get the urban culture and the urban feel, you know, it's nice to just be there for one or two days.
00:15:10
Speaker
um And then now the land in Kenya first, right or yeah yeah they land in kenya first if they come to kenya of course they spend like one or two days here they um they go to the national park our national park in nairobi then after that uh they rest a bit for one or two days and then after that they can go to if they are a wildlife uh kind of people We have several parks in Kenya, which um apart from just the Maasai Mara, there are other parks which also have the same feel or, you know, um like Amboselli, which they can clear, like um while Tanzania has the mountain,
00:15:56
Speaker
us Kenyans have the most stunning views of Kilimanjaro from Ambocelli or Osavo. So that would also be like a nice adventure for them.
00:16:08
Speaker
So they can just take like three, three days. I prefer having three days in um in ah for safaris because you know the first day when you arrive, you're just tired. You don't want to do anything else. You don't even want to hear about a game drive.
00:16:24
Speaker
Or probably even, From the airstrip to the loads, you know, you've already done the game drive, like the, you know, the pass up. So i I don't recommend anyone.
00:16:35
Speaker
So from the second day, you can actually do the game drive. So you can decide to, like, go the whole day out or just the morning and then spend your time doing stuff.
00:16:47
Speaker
so um so if they are um history lovers kenya has a lot of history culture you know apart from just the maasai there's a lot of culture that um people can enjoy there's the truckana way up north there's the lure they can decide to go to the nyanzari uh the western region and just see the blue culture they can go to the central ritual region and you know just have the um guka they can do um if If they love agriculture and they just want to immerse themselves in agro tours, they can do that. like this a lot um and There's a lot and I think most tourism, like the East African ones, Kenya and Tanzania are pushing to have tourists not just come for wildlife, which of course is the first priority, but they can just mix with other things, like mountain climbing and all.
00:17:45
Speaker
so In as much as we have like similar things to do, so that is so you have three weeks and they want to come to Kenya, Tanzania, and zana and um Ethiopia.
00:17:57
Speaker
you have um You said how many? Like two weeks, right? Yeah. Two weeks.
Itinerary Highlights for Chinese Tourists
00:18:04
Speaker
So um if I divide this, like if they spend five, five days or five, five days, but on the country where they're going to take their like direct flight in they spend like more days there exploring the country so which ip i presume is kenya right
00:18:34
Speaker
but um so um once they land in tanzania do you know they can still explore the same things they can even explore wildlife in Kenya and then wildlife in Tanzania and just see the difference. There's always a difference.
00:18:49
Speaker
i I've never been to the countries and not seen the difference when it comes to the game drive. You know, of course it's the same animals, but that set up, you know, probably it's a different sunset or a different mountain or a different behavior, you know.
00:19:09
Speaker
So I would never remove any, or probably they've never been to, or they can decide they're not going to Serengeti, but they're going to a different national park. you know um Tanzania has a lot of like Ruaha, is it Ruaha or Ruahi?
00:19:29
Speaker
Tanzania has a lot of parks they can visit apart from Serengeti, which you know can kind give a different feel. And then after that, they can decide to explore the beach. Now Zanzibar is awesome.
00:19:43
Speaker
So we have Zanzibar in Tanzania. So Zanzibar and Tanzania are separate, but they're linked with a ferry or like it's not so far. one So they can decide after they've explored the the wildlife, they go to Zanzibar for, you know, culture, you know, and and the beach, because they have great beach, but also Kenya has Lamu.
00:20:06
Speaker
you know So they can decide to come for both and explore the Swahili culture in Lamu and the Swahili culture in Zanzibar and just see the difference. you know um So if I was advising like someone who of ah probably wants to do an itinerary for Chinese travelers, I would tell them not to be scared of having similar experiences because things are different, like the locals are different even in regions, you know. um
00:20:40
Speaker
They might, you might have street food in Kenya, but ah street food in Zanzibar or Tanzania, it's different, you know. um based on the food that you get.
00:20:51
Speaker
Of course, we have almost similar foods, but there's that experience that is different. I don't know if I've answered your question. No, absolutely. And and i like the I like the fact that you've also spoken about the actual cities in its Africa, also imploring people to also not only go check out the wildlife, but also to check out your vibrant cities, to check out the culture and ah yeah like the street life.
00:21:18
Speaker
I always feel like cities are neglected a lot. So you have tourists coming in, they just, they they've not even rested. Like that day, probably they spend one night and then the next day they're out. Like I wish either the first day or the last day, oh have two days just to explore the city.
00:21:41
Speaker
Because it has a lot, like Nairobi has a lot. Yeah. Yeah, cities have a lot. Absolutely. And I mean, can I can also just ask, ah ah maybe sensitive or not, but in terms of the cities in East Africa, how is it in terms of safety?
00:21:59
Speaker
Like everywhere else, of course, you have to be careful, but I wouldn't say um just be careful, but um there's nothing that happens. You just just walk normally as you'd walk anywhere else in the world.
00:22:12
Speaker
But just make sure that you're, of course, you can't just go, you know, oh walking on unsafe places or just wearing flashy stuff or just carrying your money, you know, anyhow, anywhere.
00:22:28
Speaker
So, yeah, I would say everywhere in the world is unsafe, provided that you're not aware of your environment. So it's just how you, it's just you to note the road, that the but dangerous places, you know, not not being flashy, making sure that your money is safe.
00:22:46
Speaker
the But Nairobi is generally safe. Even that, it's everybody safe. yeah Just take care of your staff everywhere. Like, yeah, like where you speak.
00:22:58
Speaker
Now, I'm also ah a bit of a believer that hospitality can cut through um language barriers. So just just for an example, like if you travel to a country like Jordan, where they do have a ah a history and a culture of the Bedouins who have been travelling around in the desert and are very hospitable to one another out of necessity because of the harsh environments.
00:23:29
Speaker
And therefore, ah the Bedouin culture makes the people very hospitable. And whether you understand and can speak their language or not, just the way that they help you and ah serve you as a tourist, um it makes you quite happy.
00:23:46
Speaker
um Now, the other day I saw a week ago, i saw a group of Chinese tourists who were traveling through East Africa. ah They were like more roughing it, roughing it. It was overland trucking safaris. So this thing in the national parks and everything, but there was thing more intense and things like that. And like basic camps and nothing luxury at all.
00:24:09
Speaker
But I saw a wonderful picture of a one of the Chinese ladies, one of the guests on the trip, with one of the East African guides. And they just impromptu had two yoga mats that they put out on the camp. And they were doing yoga ah together out there in the bush. And it just looked like...
00:24:30
Speaker
a wonderful, wonderful, beautiful situation where um I think they would struggle to communicate with each other in language, but through pure hospitality and friendliness, um they were clearly having a fun time and having a lot of enjoyment.
00:24:47
Speaker
um So I wanted to ask you a little bit about, because I have no opinion on this whatsoever, I would just like to hear from you. ah In terms of the people and the culture of East Africa, in terms of hospitality, friendliness, how would you describe the people of East Africa accepting all tourists, whether they be Chinese or not?
Hospitality of East Africans
00:25:08
Speaker
Oh, Africans, k and especially Kenyans. Oh, let me be biased. We are very hospitable people. We are very hospitable people. As in, I think it's it's African culture, you know, to be warm towards guests, you know, like when guests come, you have a feast and stuff like that's what goes on in personal houses.
00:25:33
Speaker
So you can imagine in hospitality, that culture being extended. you know, um everywhere oh when you're lost, you know that someone will be there to to help you out, you know.
00:25:44
Speaker
um When you're at hotel, you'll be taken care of, you know, um that you'd feel lost, you know, if if if if you speak Chinese, there'll be someone. Like when you when you check in hotel or even when you book like hotel,
00:26:02
Speaker
from a two-agent and everyone, you wouldn't find, ah you wouldn't be lost because someone would be that wealthy. They might not probably understand the language. If it's hotel, they might even get one of their staffs who understand the language to talk to you.
00:26:16
Speaker
You know, like I find that um Kenyans are adaptable. Kenyans um love guests as it is just in us. And so Chinese people, we don't,
00:26:31
Speaker
segregate we don't discriminate we we we love guests yeah ah i've never had any segment any travel segment being you know discriminated upon in the country um even in east africa we host you know people from around africa probably people in other countries who have been affected by war, like we let them do stuff, you know.
00:26:59
Speaker
So that is, you know, that is proof enough that you're hospitable, like they can actually come and we wouldn't kick them out. them up to the hospital. We won't kick them out when they try to make a living, you know.
00:27:14
Speaker
So that shows a lot about the region. Yeah, great. Harriet, one more question I want to ask you um as well is what was quite surprising for me about, just to get back to some of the Red Note data, is that West Africa as a region does not really track at all on Red Note in that it's not that ah It's not that there's a bad perception or that there's um apathy, but there just isn't any content on Red Note about the West Africa region, which is surprising to me because of the, you know, again, we're looking at a very rich culture, um beautiful nature, food.
00:27:55
Speaker
I was wondering if you could maybe... give us, if you have some ideas on what is holding West Africa as a region back and maybe ah how this could develop in the future, how this could change in the future. What do you think about that?
West Africa's Low Visibility in Chinese Tourism
00:28:12
Speaker
I think um the West African region has, I'd say their marketing strategy, the tourism marketing strategies of most tourism booths in the West African region is is down. Like it's They are just kind concentrating on, you know, the traditional markets, the America, you know.
00:28:34
Speaker
But if they were really willing to tap into the Chinese market, we'll see more marketing from them in China. Because that' that's the first thing, awareness. That means that there's something that the Chinese people still don't know that there's a West Africa that exists, you know.
00:28:53
Speaker
Because if they can go to Egypt, if they can go to Morocco, but they can come to Kenya. But it's ti that content ah level, the content ah content creation in West Africa is still low.
00:29:07
Speaker
It means that they don't know that that region exists. And is it their fault that they don't know that the region exists? No, it's because they got the the tourism boats in those countries are not taking initiative to ensure that the Chinese travelers, when they come in, their visa the the vis that they have like easy access to the to the region, the flat there is a like direct flight from there. like they they don't you know if If a region is has difficulty of access, definitely no one is going to come. Or if people come, there's going to be less people come, or those people who have more money to penetrate through the barriers, that they can be able to come. so
00:29:51
Speaker
my because we we've seen I've seen this even even in us. um The East African region has really been trying to tap into the West African travelers to come to the region, but the West Africa bit have not seen this as an opportunity for them to attract even west even the East African travelers to come to the region.
00:30:13
Speaker
They really they have neglected the tourism sector that much. And you see, if there's no government to government policy, now i'm I'm just relating it to to the regional,
00:30:24
Speaker
true to to make you see that it starts from them. you know It starts from them understanding that this is a segment that we need to you know enable a smooth environment for travelers to come.
00:30:39
Speaker
And then you'll see many more Chinese travelers come. So that's my take. That's the first thing that needs to happen. There needs to be an enablement that will make it easy for Chinese people to travel because most of the times when and region has a low number visitors because it is less accessible ah <unk> left and people don't know that yet it exists so those are the two major reasons why a destination ah or or a place cannot be will receive like low numbers of travelers and the recommendation is just for these governments to
00:31:18
Speaker
to just be aware that the the Chinese market is is a huge market that they can tap into um and and and provide that access and and try to you know make the barriers oh and i take to remove the barriers that are making the Chinese travelers come into their countries.
00:31:39
Speaker
Yeah, that's just my thing. Because majority of the time, it's just the visa and the flights and the awareness, those three things. Absolutely.
00:31:51
Speaker
And lastly, from my side, Harriet, so naturally we've spoken now about how popular Kenya and Tanzania are with ah the Chinese outbound market.
Promotional Strategies in Uganda, Rwanda, and Burundi
00:32:02
Speaker
um What about Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi? Now, I understand with Uganda, naturally, there there's a bit of interest there, absolutely, when it comes to viewing the gorillas, which have been famous in so many movies and things like that. yeah um but But what else? What about places like Kampala? What's that like as a city?
00:32:26
Speaker
and And what about Rwanda and Burundi? I mean, truth be told, i see that Rwanda is always very active in terms of... trade and investment promotion.
00:32:38
Speaker
I hear a lot of about their economical development, but but I don't hear that much specifically about their tourism. um yeah Any thoughts on on your neighbors to the West?
00:32:52
Speaker
Uganda has really, from where i stand, Uganda is really, they're really woken up. The tourism body is really woken up.
00:33:04
Speaker
um to diversify their markets. I saw they've really been doing activations in India and and also China actually because um as you see that our neighbors, so whatever Kenya does, Uganda always, like Uganda too does.
00:33:23
Speaker
We have been like friends for a while, not a long while, like brothers and sisters. So um in terms of awareness,
00:33:34
Speaker
Uganda and Rwanda share the gorilla experience, but it's cheaper to do gorilla trekking experience in Uganda than Rwanda. They also have like the safari experience, so it's not so um it's not as rich as being in Tanzania or Kenya, but Uganda too has that. And they're also boosting their mice sector as well.
00:33:59
Speaker
um Uganda is very rich in culture. um their food is like you can do a whole gastronomy tools of their food and when it comes to the capital city Kampala it's vibrant it's you can do like a they they have like it's I think the center of ah if if someone is so interested in like religious historic culture it has a lot of that can see the Idi Amin torture chambers and then you can see you can go to the Kabaka tombs
00:34:30
Speaker
you know the whole palace and just immerse yourself there. so And then there is ah whole string of major religions that have their temples, like the Baha'i temple, the largest mosque that was built by Gaddafi.
00:34:45
Speaker
you know like If you just enjoy such tours, just you know look at that. Kampala is really amazing in that. like And also that text space is rising up. So if the Chinese who are into the text space,
00:34:59
Speaker
can actually you know pe top tap into the tech space sector over there. um so um ah ah Can you repeat the question again? So that I don't agree. Yeah, so so know Uganda, Gajin, Kampalo, that was a great description. And then furthermore, <unk> yeah Rwandan, per Burundi.
00:35:23
Speaker
Yes, so Burundi. um so what Rwanda has really succeeded in selling the gorilla experience. um There's usually a competition between that and Uganda. But you see, the addition um the additional thing about Uganda is that they also have the ape experience. like They not only have the gorillas, but if you go to Kibale Forest, the Kibale National. It's K-I-B-L-E.
00:35:52
Speaker
So I don't know if you pronounce it as Kibale or Kibale. But the park really has chimps, so one can get that experience, go to even Gamba Island and have the chimps experience as well.
00:36:09
Speaker
So anyone who enjoys that can actually have that, apart from culture. They don't have the beach, but they have the lake. So in Entebbe, they try to improvise that by having an artificial beach.
00:36:23
Speaker
and they have several islands. So that is also a different experience that someone can can have there. Burundi is, I'd say, Burundi is rich, but their marketing is low.
00:36:38
Speaker
Yeah. Their marketing is low. Because compared to what Rwanda is doing, Burundi, I think it's also budget, but Burundi, would say its landscape is awesome. And they also have,
00:36:52
Speaker
their drums, which is the rich cultural experience that one must never miss when they go there. um But, and and and the just the whole history, you know, and and and, you know, sharing that history of war with Rwanda and everything. um That would also be awesome to just combine Rwanda and Burundi. It was even, it's like a five, is it a five or six hour drive from Rwanda to Burundi?
00:37:20
Speaker
um Yeah. So, that too um cannot be neglected. If someone, if you're probably a Chinese traveler comes from Kenya, goes to either Tanzania or Uganda, and then goes to Rwanda and then takes that five minutes drive or just takes a flight to Burundi, they also can have like that experience.
00:37:43
Speaker
So yeah, but but I'm proud of Uganda. They're really pushing themselves. like Do you know all these countries in... I feel like Kenyans were sleeping because all these countries at one point were behind us, but you can see how Rwanda has pushed themselves even when it comes to events. you know They're really huge on events and they're hosting big events.
00:38:07
Speaker
And you know they're really packaging their tourism products. Uganda too is pushing. So East Africa is really arising.
00:38:20
Speaker
to its potential, but of course not yet fully, but yeah, we are really pushing. Yeah, so it's just getting better and better, just more and more to see in the future.
00:38:31
Speaker
That sounds fantastic. Well, I mean, I've absolutely learned a heck about this, and you've definitely put to a desire in myself to get to East Africa sooner than later, because after I hear all of these things, it sounds absolutely incredible, I must say.
00:38:50
Speaker
ah Because that's also the strange thing ah that I think you also touched on a little bit. i mean from ah maybe it's improving now and you can comment on if it's improving or not but I remember many years ago when I was still based in South Africa it was actually very expensive to travel from even South Africa to to places like Kenya or Tanzania the flights and everything and it's I find it kind of strange that, not not not strange, I find it a pity that in many cases for Africans it's probably
Challenges of Intra-African Travel
00:39:26
Speaker
cheaper to fly to a destination outside of Africa than it is to actually fly within Africa.
00:39:32
Speaker
and mean by Yeah, which is a bit of a pity. it's It's really sad. And for me as a Kenyan, I'm happy that South Africa removed the visa.
00:39:43
Speaker
So now it's I can actually go to South Africa direct. um that Because that too was a cost. Like you can imagine going through that process of, you know, taking your documents, pay, like I i just had that process.
00:39:58
Speaker
And having direct flights also, you know, from Nairobi to Joburg, from Nairobi to Cape Town, you know. And I think African governments just, they're just too selfish and greedy.
00:40:12
Speaker
Because if it wasn't for all these taxes, like air taxes in countries, you know, and then the protection of their national carriers and stuff, and, you know, they don't want and another airline to share in the cake and stuff.
00:40:27
Speaker
I think we would have, like flights would just be so cheap, you know. But now so people don't want to lose that. Not people, but the governments. People, what i want it.
00:40:40
Speaker
let me but Yeah, absolutely. i mean i mean, frankly speaking, I distinctly remember when when I was at university, i only, out of my group of friends and out of fairly large circle friends, I only had one friend that had ever managed to travel to East Africa.
00:41:00
Speaker
Are you serious? Yeah, absolutely. You know, yesterday, i did i told someone that I i I live in Nairobi and then they told me Nairobi, Nigeria.
00:41:13
Speaker
was like,
00:41:17
Speaker
that also happens. I was like, so i no, and and no, what shocked me is they're African, you know, they live in Africa, the Africans. So I'm like, um, it, it, it just was like, we're Africans, but we, we still are not aware of countries that are just our neighbors, you know?
00:41:37
Speaker
So that means they've probably never heard that there's a country called Kenya. If, you know, like that boils down to that. That I think it's all these barriers making us not know each other, not to know what our country has.
00:41:54
Speaker
Because I don't think when you go to Europe, I've never been to Europe actually, but I'm hoping this year I make my first. and step in the continent. But what happens is, you know, people know, I guess people know other countries, or I don't know if it's me assuming that, but I wish <unk> it's just the barriers.
00:42:21
Speaker
Or but i don't know if we need to re-evaluate our education system and ensure that as Africans, Africa is taught in our syllabus so that Someone knows. There is a country called Egypt. There is a country called this, you know.
00:42:38
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you are right. I think that the fact that visas are being opened up ah between at least the sub-Saharan countries more and more now, flight connectivity is absolutely finally improving.
00:42:53
Speaker
I think we headed in the right direction. But sure, it has taken. a really, really long time. um but But also having said that, i also i also understand the the the causes of the ignorance and the barriers. i mean, ah clearly, like colonization and divide and rule played a huge role.
00:43:14
Speaker
um I mean, I know that people do not collect stamps anymore like the Yusun-Olders. But but i found ah I found an old book of stamps the other day. They were really old stamps and they were all specifically African country stamps. wow And on every single one of those stamps, you had some white European um royal leader on those stamps for the various African countries. Oh, good Victoria.
00:43:41
Speaker
Or you had animals. So it was either animals or some yeah white royal person, yeah which is just like, it was just it just blew my mind to to think that there was an era where where that was permissible.
00:43:56
Speaker
You know, my my dad, ah before he retired, he was like a postmaster. So he worked a lot with the Kenya's post office. So I will see these stamps because, of course, and and of course, taking my letters,
00:44:11
Speaker
you know, either posting them abroad or, you know, or within the country and stuff. Nowadays people have SMS and emails, so the country is dying down and our post office is also going down.
00:44:25
Speaker
See if she can get back online again. Otherwise we can just... I wish those... kind and And even in the midst of, you know, having the internet, I'm just wondering yeah why we still...
Awareness of African Countries Among Africans
00:44:38
Speaker
Hello, can you hear me? message
00:44:44
Speaker
Hello, can you hear me? Oh, there you are. Can you hear me? Oh, finally. Yes, there we can. Finally. So, sorry, you broke up for a bit there.
00:44:59
Speaker
Yeah. But okay, we can edit we can edit that gap out. not No worries. So, what is what was I talking about? The stamps. So, I was telling you how my dad was, he is a retired postmaster.
00:45:12
Speaker
so So in the past, ah so I grew up in that culture because I would see him come home with the sc stamps or when I would go to the post office, you know, would see people, you know, sending stuff. That was Now before, ah you know, I'm a millennial, so so we lived in both worlds when we had no phones and now with the phones.
00:45:36
Speaker
um So, i but it shouldn't be an excuse because we're living in an era where there's the internet. So I'm just wondering why, with all the information in the internet, why the awareness is still low, you know?
00:45:52
Speaker
Like why we still don't know about countries which are in Africa, you know, um ah I'm just baffled because I think there's connectivity enough. I don't think there's a country in Africa that lacks data. but It might be expensive, maybe, but in most urban spaces, there's data, there's internet, like in most urban spaces, like even in the major countries, you know.
00:46:23
Speaker
So um it just baffles me when I when i when they see that and and and just wonder what they discuss in the African Union.
00:46:34
Speaker
Totally. and Absolutely. Cool, Harrod. I think that's your plenty. We normally aim for about 20, 30 minutes, but we've got, sure, a good bit of time here.
00:46:47
Speaker
So really, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much, too. I hope I made sense. Yes. No, you absolutely absolutely did. um So, yeah, Charles just edits it a bit, and then we can send you send you the final recording that you can listen to and tell us if you you're happy with it.
00:47:08
Speaker
And then we can post it and then, yeah, playright play around on LinkedIn promoting it and forwarding it. Oh, that's nice. I'll also, of course, share it on my page.
00:47:19
Speaker
But thank you so much for the opportunity to actually just talk about this. And I hope it's been helpful. It will be helpful to anyone, you know, um designing any itinerary on East Africa for the Chinese traveller.
00:47:38
Speaker
Yeah. and n And we'll be waiting to see more insights on the chinese traveler from you guys and red knot is huge ah like i saw them you know i i learned about red knot when during this time when um the u.s government was threatening to to uh to to to ban tick tock and tick tock and then all the americans now join the red knot so i would see
00:48:10
Speaker
On TikTok, i would now see you know many American, because Rednought would bring the content to TikTok now too. And then all these Americans all migrated and stuff.
00:48:22
Speaker
So it's it's interesting to see this influence, which is amazing. like And I hope many of them um come to our region and in enjoy and learn as well.
00:48:40
Speaker
I think they will. I think they definitely will. More more, no doubt about it.
Listener Engagement
00:48:45
Speaker
If you have any questions or comments about the topics that we discussed on today's show, please feel free to reach out to us at marketing at cconsulting.com.cn or you can hit us up on LinkedIn at Create Consulting.
00:48:58
Speaker
We look forward to your feedback.