Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
China Tourism Tuesday - Episode 19
11 Plays2 months ago
On China Tourism Tuesday episode 19, we sit down with Charlie Andrews, the man looking to bring China's COTTM 2025 to a whole new concept of travel and consumer show: Panda Lifestyle Festival in Chengdu, Sichuan.
Listen to Charlie outline his vision of the Chinese travel and leisure economy, the evolving preferences of Chinese tourists, and how B2C shows are the next frontier in engaging China – on our very first video podcast, no less!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
All right, hello and welcome to China Tourism Tuesday, a discussion of marketing international tourism destinations in the China outbound tourism market. Now today we have a special guest with us ah called Charlie Andrews. Charlie, welcome to the show.
00:00:14
Speaker
Could you please tell us a little bit more about where you're coming from and what you do? Absolutely. Thanks for having me on the show. really appreciate it. So, um Charlie, of course, I've been living in Shanghai now for the best part of a decade.
00:00:26
Speaker
I've been sort of mixing around to to various different industries. I spent sort of seven or eight years working for beverage supply in China, focusing on sort of importing beverage brands to China.
00:00:37
Speaker
And then I made the move over to the exhibition industry. about last year So now I've been working for Informal Markets for about a year. We're the global leading event organizers. So I'm ah based here in our China office. And at the moment, I'm focused on launching our new to-consumer travel and tourism event at the moment, which will be based in Chengdu.
00:00:58
Speaker
Cool. Well, so firstly, thank you very much for joining us today, today Charlie. And this is our ah first video
Chengdu Event Overview and Format Shift
00:01:04
Speaker
podcast. So this is going to be quite interesting. Finally, people will see the faces behind the voices.
00:01:10
Speaker
um I would like to ask you first, Charlie, yeah, please tell us more about the show you guys are arranging in Chengdu. Absolutely. Yeah. So this comes from on the back of quite a lot of planning here. We've obviously been running COTTM Beijing, which is a 2B event for the best part of 25 years.
00:01:27
Speaker
We decided to make a bit of a switch up and go down a different route and focus primarily on a 2C format for um the new Chengdu launch. So like I said, this comes on the back of a lot of planning.
00:01:38
Speaker
ah based on feedback to the industry and sort of all of the wider data as well. We we noticed a gap in in solid offline 2C promotion when it comes to specifically travel and tourism. So I think there's obviously quite ah quite a strong ceiling when it comes to these 2B networks. There's a limited number of of ah travel operators and travel agencies within the industry in China that can sort of operate on the outbound so we decided to to give you know tourism boards and travel product suppliers a platform to actually engage with a huge wide set audience of consumers and build some kind of destination reputation and and build some experiences i've noticed there's quite a few of these events globally but in china a lot of these consumer events tend to kind of fall flat their very trade exhibition in style so we've decided to go with um
00:02:26
Speaker
what we're calling the Panda Lifestyle Week. So the travel ah section is actually only a small part of the the wider festival. There's you know sports and food and beverage. it's It's all centered around creating active consumers rather than leaflet hoarding passive consumers, as I like to call them.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah, Charlie, so i I kind of want to dig into, you know, your guys' mindset and your your methodology behind, you know, what you guys are doing in Chengdu right now.
Event Integration and Chengdu as a Host City
00:02:52
Speaker
How did you sort of piece together travel with all the adjacent kind of consumer shows that you're doing?
00:02:57
Speaker
How did you guys approach that sort of thinking of, you know, what what really gels together?
00:03:05
Speaker
Absolutely. So the the Panda Lifestyle Week is kind of ah a compilation of some of our leading events that we've already run for for decades here in Informa. It's a combination of CBME, which is our baby maternity event that's been going for as long as I can remember on one of our leading events, and then COCTM, which is travel. We also have a CWD, which is our dental exhibition within that as well.
00:03:26
Speaker
So the idea was to collate some of our key leading events that gel together in a lifestyle way. Although they're mostly 2B events, they do cover consumerism and lifestyle industry. So the travel part, although it's a family focus for the event, CBME, the Matility Show is kind of the star of this festival.
00:03:44
Speaker
But because it was attracting in such a huge amount of ah family visitors based on that, we noticed travel trends are moving more towards pan-generational travel, families, you know grandparents and their grandkids or mother-in-law.
00:03:56
Speaker
father, you know, sort of traditional families. So travel and the wider lifestyle kind of all match together. Travel is a lifestyle activity. So we figured it kind of fit nicely within this umbrella of sort of general lifestyle.
00:04:11
Speaker
And ah just to follow on from that quickly, I think you partially answered it, but why specifically Chengdu? And secondly, why more of the focus on venture travel?
00:04:24
Speaker
Two very good questions, actually. Yeah. So Chengdu was was done and not an easy, but I would say a relatively obvious choice for us. The markets around sort of Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, they're quite saturated, of course. I think a lot of destinations have been working in these markets for decades. They've invested a lot of time. Chengdu is currently in the moment, I believe, China's fastest growing outbound market, not just for travel, but um consumer spending as well. I think we're 8% year-on-year growth, so surpassing a lot of the major tier one cities as well.
00:04:54
Speaker
It's something that's been on my radar since I since i arrived in China. Chengdu has always been this kind of spotlight city. It's up and coming, it's growing. And it's only in the past sort of three to four years, especially post-COVID, that we've seen a lot of this growth come to light. We've actually seen the infrastructure being built.
00:05:08
Speaker
ah These new airports, Yanfu Airport, for example, is just a ah feat of construction. It's huge. It's also the worst place to to land into because it takes you three hours to get out of the airport because it's so big. But there's a lot of this kind of physical evidence of of Chengdu being such a hotspot now for not just inbound outbound travel, but you know culture and food.
00:05:27
Speaker
I think I had some friends from the UK arriving last month and Chengdu was first on their list. It actually surpassed Shanghai. They flew into Shanghai based on convenience, but Chengdu and Chongqing and just the general Southwest market was ah a place they wanted to
Evolving Travel Preferences and Event Promotion
00:05:40
Speaker
visit. you know They'd seen a lot of the the sort of western media you know instagram reels a of travel writers going there you know it's sort of viral food coming out of chendu that's really capturing people's attention so not just for the outbound but for the inbound as well it's such a hot spot now for um for that kind of tourism and then your second question was sorry i have to remind me michael my memory is terrible yeah what's with that oh that was it yeah
00:06:05
Speaker
um we We saw a need for something more niche. So obviously we looked at the sort of market for events and one of the things, especially for China, with short haul being such ah such a big focus, Europe and the general long haul destinations don't offer a huge amount of adventure experience. Some markets do.
00:06:20
Speaker
Switzerland for their sort of snow tourism, of course. But the the industry had always lent towards sort of European shopping and sightseeing. But we noticed a lot more when we looked at the data is those short-haul destinations, Malaysia, ah Indonesia, even Japan and Korea have some elements of adventure. There was a lot more experiential travel going on. Xiao Hongxu was influencing, people wanted to go off the beat track.
00:06:43
Speaker
It wasn't your usual cliche destinations. People wanted to post something on Xiao Hongxu and people asked questions like, where's that? I've never seen that before. So we went down this, although adventure is quite a big part of it, we're focusing more on sort of the off the beaten track experience.
00:06:57
Speaker
It's about destinations that are offering more than what the general Chinese traveler is used to. So it's quite a broad term, but we wanted to have sort of a vaguely refined scope. So we're looking for destinations that offer something that Chinese consumers and travelers aren't necessarily useful, a new experience, a new adventure.
00:07:16
Speaker
So um just a follow-up question, and this is definitely more a Charles' forte, but I'm going to lay the groundwork for him here. um What about the influences and KOLs that you're expecting to attend this Panda Festival?
00:07:30
Speaker
And how much is it related to the local government? Or is it yourself inviting them? Or can you just give us a bit of an understanding of the landscape for the influences that will be there?
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So obviously, we're sort of supported by the Chengdu Municipal Government and quite ah but a long list of ah government associations as well. I forget the English translations, and I don't remember the Chinese ones, but there's sort of the Pregnant Mothers Association, which is supporting the family side of our event. We have a ah wonderful relationship with the government here at Informa.
00:08:03
Speaker
So we're we're heavily leveraging lot of those resources. So it is a commercially organized event. with government support. So it's not a government organized event. We just have that support of the ah of the government. So when it comes to the KOLs and the KOCs, a lot of that is coming from us with a mixture of our government connections as well. So we sort of have quite a wide network of different lifestyle influences. I do have a list that was released to me at some point, which I'm happy to share with you guys after the podcast.
00:08:31
Speaker
ah We're focusing on sort of... ah travel lifestyle, outdoor adventure. We have quite a few sort of camping and outdoor adventure KOLs, domestic based ones that are that have sort of upwards of 1 million followers of Shaohang Xu.
00:08:43
Speaker
um There's a mixture of sort of family lifestyle, KLCs, some sports, KOLs as well. So we've got this very large network that's coming. we're We're a very big company. We have 50 events in China and over 500 globally. So we have a lot of resources we can leverage. We've built out this kind of custom, but um refined network of ah KOLs that are specific for the industries that we're covering in the Lifestyle Festival. So we've sort of been drip feeding out some of the detailed information because it's part of our package within the event is offering these services, of the KOLs that are kind of working with our event.
00:09:15
Speaker
So we haven't sort of released these long lists, but we do have some sort of hints and teasers about some of the network that's available for our exhibitors.
Challenges and Insights in Consumer Engagement
00:09:22
Speaker
Charlie, I kind of want to step take a step back again and and and speak to what of what you do.
00:09:28
Speaker
um I kind of want hear you talk a bit about the destinations that have actually started engaging, the the outbound destinations that started engaging with you about Panda Lifestyle Festival.
00:09:41
Speaker
um How has the the traction been so far with Destinations Internationally? And maybe you can talk a bit about what you know the the sort of differentiated value add is that you guys offer relative to other shows.
00:09:55
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. So it's been um it's been a sort of 50-50 mix. I think part of ah one of our struggles has been to sort of get some of the international destinations to realize the importance of a 2C promotion. I think a lot of them have been operating in a very standard way for a long time, and it's very difficult to break out of norms and routines.
00:10:14
Speaker
I believe that obviously these 2B events like ITB, for example, they offer a much clearer ah ah ROI. With a 2C event, it can be a little bit more difficult to track. So that's one of the objections we've been getting with some of our destinations. But the ones we've been talking to, Nepal is a fantastic example.
00:10:29
Speaker
This year is their year of China-Nepal relations when it comes to tourism. They're investing heavily into the market with food festivals and other kind of activations. They've been um probably our earliest support of the event. It was...
00:10:42
Speaker
It was wonderful to speak to them. It was just a quick sort of introduction and they were like, yep, sign us up. This is exactly on board with us We need to target consumers directly. and There's so much going on in Nepal. And I did attend one of their um conferences at COTTM Beijing back in April, where ah Mr. Sunil, the ah director of Nepal tourism, spoke for nearly two hours about butterflies and flowers. And I've never been so captivated and engaged about something so small, but it really did kind of get the... ah get the travel juices flowing. And I said Mr. Sunil, was like, this is fantastic for all these tour operators, but they're not going to pass this message on. They're going to be sort of blasting, you know, sort of packages to your country via their channels, et cetera. But you've really kind of hooked me and engaged me on this. So you need to be thinking about 2C promotion and sort of recreating this kind of excitement with consumers. and
00:11:28
Speaker
It's also something I experienced with our Russia Pavilion in April as well. i went by to visit them and the director there dressed me up in a mint coat, was feeding me bread and chocolate, was touring me around the pavilion and I'd never thought about going to Russia. And I think I told Michael this last time I saw him in Shanghai after that sort of 40 minute engagement with Russia, i was looking at sort of booking flights to Russia next year. So me and three friends in the UK are already going to be heading that way in April next year. And that was based off of ah quick 40-minute engagement, fed some chocolate in a photo shoot a coat. So I realized that, yeah, these kind of direct-to-consumer experiences really do resonate and do get people quite excited to visit a destination as opposed to, um you know, seeing package blasts on WeChat moments, et cetera.
00:12:11
Speaker
um Besides ah country destinations that be participating, what what kind of other, well like maybe from the adventure side that are non-country, if you can give us any examples that will be participating?
00:12:24
Speaker
Yeah, so it's it's open to a wide range of ah sort of different um different channels, really. The destinations are obviously a key part of of the festival because they're the ones who are going to really benefit the most from having that consumer engagement.
00:12:37
Speaker
Aside from that, it's anyone who really deals with end consumers directly, whether they're selling packages or selling services, whether that be sort of custom itineraries or tourism packages or flights. So Outside of our destinations, some of our key ones that are sort of in the late stages of confirming their participation, know, airlines like Qatar Airways, um sort of some South African and African adventure tour providers as well that are looking to come over independently, especially people that already have presence in China. Maybe they have representation, so it's a little bit easier for them to manage offline events.
00:13:12
Speaker
um So, yeah, within that adventure experience focus, some of our clients aren't necessarily focusing on – whether or not they're related to adventure experience, what they're focusing on is the type of clientele that would drag in the more sort of engaged consumer that has a focus that has a direction, they're not looking to collect leaflets, or they actually have some sort of motivation to come. So although they may not be 100% adventure focused, they do want to meet more adventurous consumers. So Yeah, outside the destinations, it's hotels, especially in resorts, especially more nature-focused resorts. Travel agencies are quite a big one for us because they are very end-consumer focused. 30,000 captivated visitors in one room is a fantastic opportunity for them to actually convert on site and make some sales.
00:13:58
Speaker
And I mean, if assuming this one is going to be a success, is there any plans of maybe expanding it to other cities of China? Yeah, I think other cities would be a focus for us. I think obviously we're part of that Panda Lifestyle Week Festival.
00:14:13
Speaker
The aim, especially for me quite selfishly, is um if it's successful this year, I have a great case to kind of take this out of the Panda Lifestyle Festival and sort of build and an independent platform COTTM adventure experience. We're sort of testing the waters at the moment. We have a ah small space within the festival.
00:14:30
Speaker
And the festival is also very key for us to drive in a variety of demographics. You know, we're getting those family travelers, we're getting Gen Z, we're getting seniors as well. And they're being attracted by the sports and the family and the bakery and the coffee festival.
00:14:44
Speaker
But if you can generate enough interest, especially on the visitor side, there's a great chance for us to kind of open these smaller events within different cities in China and target that kind of adventure experiential kind of travel angle.
00:14:56
Speaker
Yeah, Charlie, if if you know it all works out, it all goes well, I would kind of like to get you a vision for you know the the best case vision for how this would work out in China in the future. Would it be sort of a many small events over the year in different cities by frequency, or would it sort of be all clustered into really big events? ah Describe your future bit more about, or your vision for the future, but more about these kinds of events.
00:15:22
Speaker
Absolutely. um Well, the decision of where that goes is sadly way above my pay grade. But of course, ah I can definitely sort of influence these decisions when it comes to what the plan is in the future. I think for me on a more personal level, if I'm thinking outside of of our structure here at Informer, I would like to see you a more flexible event format. Because one thing we've obviously noticed with the... um The destinations especially is is this sort of adopting of a much heavier focus on the roadshow format, I've noticed, right?
00:15:50
Speaker
These roadshows are sort of a smaller investment and they get a chance to target individual cities in a much shorter time span. Of course, three to four days in event is quite a lot of investment. But a lot of these destinations i speak to, um they're very focused on the roadshow format. So what I'd like to do is kind of have a sort of more of a blend or a merge where we can offer opportunities in multiple cities throughout the one or two year period.
00:16:12
Speaker
And it kind of works like a roadshow, but more of an exhibition festival format. Because we'll consider, so i consistently B2C, I'd like to adopt this more engaging, fun festival format where it blends travel with actually on-site activities and things to keep consumers excited.
00:16:29
Speaker
The logistics of obviously running them in different cities is a question that I have to ask our operations team of whether that's possible to do in short timeframes. But yeah, I'd say personally, my end goal would be to have sort of smaller event formats, frequent in different cities yet.
00:16:44
Speaker
um Now in this new role of yours, I'm assuming you've also had the opportunity to check out various competitive shows. Maybe you've seen some ah tourism shows overseas.
00:16:56
Speaker
um What have you seen other than what you've said already and plan to do it in Chengdu in September? Where do you you possibly see any other gaps in the terms of offerings, in terms of trade shows in China at the moment?
00:17:14
Speaker
I feel like the trade shows need to be a little bit more adaptable to the market. So we obviously see 60% of um Chinese travelers that they're making their booking decisions based on social media.
00:17:25
Speaker
And with trade exhibitions, they are very offline focused.
Adapting Trade Shows to Social Media and KOL Involvement
00:17:29
Speaker
And I think what we can do with trade events is is they can become a sort of user generated content platform, right? You generate the content on site and you leverage your online connections. so I'm not trying to muscle out the digital marketing agencies that work with these destinations. Actually,
00:17:43
Speaker
people that offer these digital marketing services kind of work side by side and parallel with us. we're We're here to create an engaging platform where consumers generate content that can then be used in these these sort of well built out social networks. So the way that I see it, the gap in the market is, especially for the consumer events, is targeting the the the newer um online streams for content, right? Shaohu the more younger formats, especially when I've gone to some of these other consumer trade events, they utilize sort of WeChat official accounts and sort of more, i would even call them more sort of business related channels, but they don't seem to target the the the more social media or the KOL angle. So
00:18:23
Speaker
Inviting these KOLs and KOCs is something that's really important for us is to sort of spread out that younger generation kind of online content. And our platform is there to generate content that people can connect with.
00:18:34
Speaker
Well, what I think is that, and and I mentioned it before, ah Charlie, when we met, is that I think that what you mentioned, the social proof aspect of that, you know, have so many channels that are just so crowded and and inflated in terms of what they're pushing and the sort of hard sell aspect.
00:18:51
Speaker
I do think that people getting together, consumers getting together, and forming an emotional bond, a shared emotional bond with a place through people to people is a really genius move. And im I really hope that you guys, that this one is a big success, that you guys can expand this concept more because I think it's in the works. where you know Whether it's you guys or whether it's the next guy, it's it's coming. I feel like it's a structural part of of the of the tourism landscape. So yeah, I mean, excellent to see that you guys are doing this this kind of good work.
00:19:26
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you so much. And yeah, I totally agreed on that call the other day. it's It's that organic proof, right? That's the key thing. Likes and impressions online is one thing, but 300 people swarming to your booth and taking photos with sort of, you know, costumes and trying your food. And that's something that really builds confidence with your 2B partners.
00:19:44
Speaker
The travel agency, see this and, you know, direct to the tourism board, see this, and there's the proof that people are interested in the destination or, There's the proof that what you are doing is right because you're generating that on-site interest to your destination. So yeah, couldn't agree anymore. And it's definitely part of the reason why we've decided to ah go down that two-seat avenue.
00:20:02
Speaker
And Charlie, you mentioned ah previously in your personal role you were working in the alcohol business in China. Now that's a very, very competitive industry.
00:20:15
Speaker
And now that you've pivoted over to tourism, I'm just super curious from a personal perspective from yourself, ah what have you found to be similarities And what have you found to be something that you didn't expect to come across?
00:20:32
Speaker
Something surprising?
00:20:35
Speaker
Similarities. It's equally as difficult. i've I've never chosen the easy routes in life. It seems to be that way. Everything I do is ah is a challenge and a headache. ah There's definitely the similarities. um I come from a long line of hospitality background. and i think travel has its roots in hospitality. It's about...
00:20:52
Speaker
building experiences for people. And it's about understanding what people want on a leisure side, on ah on a sort of, you know, enjoyment side. So there's similarities in that, you know, going out to a bar and having a drink, I was supplying those those sort of whiskeys and gins to people, you know, supplying a platform for people to find new holiday destinations, not too dissimilar in the end goal, it's about making people happy.
00:21:12
Speaker
And I've always been obsessed with hospitality and service my entire life. I've lived for it. I've worked behind the bar. I've worked in kitchens as a chef in my younger years as well. I've always worked in some sort of role where hospitality is quite integral.
00:21:26
Speaker
And obviously at the moment, my role is primarily sales. And that's also to a certain degree, a hospitality role as well. So It doesn't matter kind of which industry I work in. If I'm sort of offering a service, I'm being consultative in my approach. I'm trying to make people feel good about their decisions or offer them solutions. It's it's all hospitality for me. And tourism is kind of ah the more closely linked industry when it comes to um hospitality. And a small dip into it as well. I mean, i my first job after university, I was working as a tour guide for a gin distillery.
00:21:56
Speaker
That was my first job out of there. So that was my kind of dabble into ah tourism back in the early days. And it might have been one of the decisions why Informa put me into tourism as they heard about my one month. brief experience in ah being a tour guide. So they thought I'd be the best man for the job for this.
00:22:11
Speaker
But um differences, I'd say, obviously, I'm working on a much larger scale now. In my previous role in alcohol, it was mostly managing of our wholesalers. So I was working very strictly to be with people distributing my product.
00:22:24
Speaker
And now I'm sort of working with individual companies to find out their pain points. Whereas before I talked to our wholesalers, and it was very much how do we activate these brands on a larger scale. We're now i'm really sort of deep diving into different organizations, needs and wants and pain points. And it's different, but it's it's new challenges for sure, because it takes a little bit more time. But, ah you know, in my old job, it was it was a little bit less time to understand five or six wholesalers, you know, their needs and wants. And now I'm working, you know, with 40 or 50 per day, different clients and different destinations trying to really understand what they want.
00:22:59
Speaker
So that's that's definitely a big challenge for me, but it's something I'm embracing quite nicely, I think, at the moment. It's keeping me busy, that's for sure. And I mean, in terms of the economies between those two different industries, so in alcohol before, I mean, ah something that you and I were chatting about was, for example, expensive luxury cognac brands.
Trends in Travel Preferences and Economic Influences
00:23:20
Speaker
um And now how that's possibly taking a bit of a knock in China. ah Tourism, um again, also the economy has had its challenges recently.
00:23:31
Speaker
um Based on your your hat of being in this industry of tourism now, and just just from the experience that you've had so far, and keeping in mind the Chinese economy, because you're in the thick of things in Shanghai, you see what's going on you see what the purchasing power is like, you've still got friends in multiple industries and everything.
00:23:52
Speaker
Where would you see the near future of Chinese outbound tourism, considering the current economy? possibly economic situation or do you think everything's kind of similar and just going ahead as before?
00:24:07
Speaker
Just a rough idea what you think about that. Sure. I think um luxury will always be luxury despite the economic problems within China. I say problems, but the economic changes within China.
00:24:20
Speaker
I think the luxury segment will continue to spend in the same way they always have. They may look for different experiences, but I think luxury doesn't ever get affected. you've got ridiculous amounts of wealth, you will always have ridiculous amounts of wealth for the most part.
00:24:33
Speaker
I think that sort of burgeoning middle class here, they are adjusting their spending habits. So I think I use examples of my Chinese friends, I'd say, you know, they fall into this sort of middle class range, they're on fairly decent salaries.
00:24:47
Speaker
um they're sort of this roughly the same age as me, you know, in their early 30s, they're definitely looking for new experiences, whereas before their holidays would have always been head down to Phuket for five days to hit the beach or head to Tokyo for a bit of shopping.
00:25:00
Speaker
They're now venturing more to sort of Bali and they're looking at yoga retreats or domestically, they're looking at more interesting options as well. you know, they're heading to sort of like naked resorts, right? They're looking for more experience-based travel because of the limited time they have when it comes to vacation days and then with a limited amount of spending power, when they do spend, they're looking to get a lot more for their money. And I don't mean necessarily in the amount they're getting, but they want stories to tell. They want to come back feeling relaxed, but they also want something to share.
00:25:28
Speaker
not just I went over to you know Paris for five days, spent a ton of money on luxury goods and you know had some steak freaks and came back. They want something to really show for it. They really want to get out of the country and experience something new. So i think that's where consumer spending habits will go. and um Luxuries will always be spent on. I think we always say in economic downturns, people don't remove luxuries from their life. They just spend less on those luxuries. I think is that there's a term for it, the lipstick effect or something. i always forget the name of it, but people will never cut luxuries in their life. They just adjust how they spend on luxuries. So outbound travel will continue to grow. It just grows in a different way. Maybe the spending becomes a little bit less when it comes to
00:26:07
Speaker
initial flight and hotel bookings, maybe some on the ground expenditure as well. But people will look for more cost effective options that they can get the most experience out of. And that's where it's coming from.
00:26:19
Speaker
yeah And ah then ah you've answered my question already, but this is a dumb question i need to ask in any case. how How do you feel about the future of China? Are you still bullish? Are you bullish on the future of China in terms of brands that are not in China already that are possibly looking for new markets?
00:26:39
Speaker
How do you feel about that? That's a really good question, actually. So obviously, you know, being here for so long, and I think you obviously you lived in China longer than I have currently now. um I say, i don't think I've been too, i don't I'm too jaded by China. I'm still a very big supporter of the market here.
00:26:57
Speaker
It is, you know, this second largest economy. It's a challenging market to come into. it's But it's a market that can't be ignored. The issue with China, and if we're talking generally not about tourism, but the market in general, it requires a lot of long-term investment. I think that's what puts a lot of companies off from coming into the country. It's not a ah quick fix market. It's not a land one day, sign a few deals, send a shipment kind of country. It does require multiple investments into e-commerce, into online, into offline, into retail partners.
00:27:27
Speaker
So it can be quite daunting and you do need that that financial backing to make China work. And when it does work, it really works. But I think um when China had its heyday, people were kind of looking for those quick results and they were gaining those quick results. But without any long term focus, they were sort of capping themselves to sort of a very minimal amount of opportunity here.
00:27:47
Speaker
And now China's economy has shifted and adjusted. Those short term gains are no longer really possible. It's all a long term play now. So I think even some of the bigger companies that we reach out to aren't quite willing to accept the reality that if they want to grow, China absolutely can't be ignored. But they need to understand this is a 10, 20 or 15 years sort of investment here. And you have to be smart about how you play the China game.
00:28:13
Speaker
Cool. And then always the last fun question. Your three favorite tourist destinations in China or where you just had the most fun and three favorite places overseas?
Charlie's Top Destination Picks in China and Abroad
00:28:26
Speaker
that's ah That's a great question. Three in China. So I've been very fortunate in the 10 years I've lived here, mostly for work. I've traveled to, think, over 35 destinations in China, mostly cities for work.
00:28:36
Speaker
And I've had some fantastic and sometimes very dangerous experiences. I'd say... Number one for me would always be Chongqing. Chongqing holds a very special place in my heart. um Just the general vibe of the city, the people, the food, everything.
00:28:50
Speaker
It comes up as a cliche answer, but I spent a lot of time down there in my previous alcohol job and built a really good friend network. and it was ah one of the cities that I took my friends to when they visited China for the first time and they fell in love with it. So Chongqing's up there.
00:29:04
Speaker
Number two, I'd have to say... Oh, surprisingly, Wuhan actually ah comes out into my top three, which might surprise some people. Their sort of version of the Bund is beautiful over by the river, over in the the eastern part of the city as well. But the university's got these gorgeous lakes as well.
00:29:23
Speaker
The old part of the town has some really interesting architecture. and They've got a fantastic bar and restaurant scene in Wuhan as well. are Really popping nightlife, great people. so yeah, Wuhan kind of comes out there. And I've chosen two cities, so I think something more countryside-y should be selected for the third one.
00:29:40
Speaker
I'd go, and again, it's quite um cliche, but Lijang, actually. I visited Lijang for the first time in ah April this year. ah good friend of mine, Fraser, is ah a gin distiller ah down in Lijang. So we had a tour of his facility and he drove us around.
00:29:55
Speaker
And ah yeah, we had the most amazing couple of days um in Lijang, just trying all the food. We had some of the best sort of fish hop I've ever had. And the pace of life was just fantastic. So I thought it wouldd be quite a...
00:30:07
Speaker
generic touristy town like some of these other sort of mountainous areas in Yunnan but like Dali etc but um it felt quite legitimate so yeah those would be my my three China destinations overseas is definitely really challenging is this new destinations or ones I've been to before just to clarify ones you've been to before that you enjoyed Okay. and um i This might be cheating, but number one, I'd say Oman, but I did live there for my entire childhood. But it's a destination that is my third home in my mind.
00:30:34
Speaker
um And it was also part of the inspiration for sort of COTCM adventure experience. I grew up in a country This is sort of before it modernized quite heavily where weekends would be spent driving into Wadis and scuba diving and, you know, June bashing on Saturdays. We had a very adventurous childhood when I lived there.
00:30:52
Speaker
Hospitality of the country is where I sort of fell in love with hospitality. um my dad's co-workers would invite us around every week for coffee and bait fish and they they'd throw their most expensive perfumes at us. And there was a real...
00:31:03
Speaker
strong sense of hospitality and community in the country. And it's just, yeah, it's one of those ones that I think about really often. I'm dying to go back. And at COTTM, I noticed Oman was there and I spent quite ah quite a long time hanging out that booth, ah boring them with my stories of my childhood. So yeah, Oman, I'd say would be ah would be number one.
00:31:22
Speaker
um Other destinations, I'd say, wherever I had a really good time. Hmm. It's cliche, but Thailand's always on there. And it's it's purely because of I visited so many times being based in China because of how close it is, right? It's our main shore hall destination and flights pre-COVID were obviously really cost effective. So I spent a lot of time heading down to Bangkok and Chinatown in Bangkok. It's one of my favorite destinations. It's got some favorite cocktail bars,
00:31:49
Speaker
The food is always fantastic. And it was always nice to go and spend some time in a really big expat community as well and meet some new people. I mean, I was going down there in 2017, 2018, which is when the expat community was quite big in Shanghai, but Bangkok just dwarfed it. There were so many more interesting people to meet.
00:32:06
Speaker
so Had a lot of good weekends down there and my friend's girlfriend at the time was Thai and she moved back to Bangkok. So she got us into this Thai-only music club just off of Khao San Road. So it was me and my friend were the only two foreigners in there and drinking free Johnny Walker the whole time. So I've got some really good memories of sort of interacting with ah with locals in ah in Bangkok. so For me, it's always that local interaction. Am I am i stepping out of the sort of tourism section? Am I really living in a city or experiencing a city for how locals or expats experience it? That's how I kind of define my ah favorite destinations. And then number three, I'd probably put as...
00:32:44
Speaker
Hmm. It's a tough one, actually. There's quite lot of choices. um Nepal, actually. Nepal, I might even bump Nepal up to a to number one, actually. i was very fortunate. I got to a hike to Everest Base Camp um in Nepal when I was 13.
00:33:01
Speaker
I went to a very strange high school where it wasn't a very good high school, but for some reason, one of our extracurricular activities was going to base camp in Nepal, which really didn't match the ah the the sort of clientele of my school. But I was very lucky. My dad had some money saved up and invested in this trip for me. About 20 or 30 of us flew over to Nepal for two weeks when we were 13 or 14, and we all hiked up to base camp. and um I got terrible altitude sickness on the way up and sadly didn't make it all the way to base camp. but Some of our Gurkhas that was with us and our Sherpas that were helping us carried me like a good 400 meters up a hill.
00:33:36
Speaker
So i've um I've got these really key memories of like great hospitality in Nepal of locals really helping us out. And a shout out to Jeek, who was this monk in Kathmandu that took... me and my two friends on a tour around the monastery and blessed a painting for us that to this day, I'm pretty sure saved my life when I fell off a cliff and my rucksack got caught branch I was holding this blessed painting from Jeek. So that one's a good two hour podcast of stories from the pool trip.
00:34:02
Speaker
So yeah, I'd have to bump that one up to number one, actually. Wonderful. Great. Thank you so much, Charlie. I really, really appreciate welcome to the show. And thanks for your insights and thoughts about these things. And um yeah, we'd like to welcome you back sometime in the future again.
00:34:18
Speaker
More than happy to. It's been a pleasure. Thank you
00:35:00
Speaker
you