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EPISODE 39 - Celtics trade Porzingis and Holiday! featuring Nick Cattles!
204 Plays2 months ago
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Transcript
Introduction of Nick Cattles and Overview of Podcast
00:00:00
Savage Boston
All right, guys, welcome back to the Savage Boston podcast. We are here with a special guest today, Nick Cattles, who is pretty much, I would say, all over Boston sports media, kind of featured on a pod with Greg Bedard on, I think, Locked On Patriots now, if I saw that right, Nick.
00:00:06
Bret
Thank you.
00:00:16
Nick
Yeah, you got it right.
00:00:17
Savage Boston
And and sometimes on 98.5 potentially. So lots going on. So are you doing, Nick?
00:00:23
Nick
Doing all right, man. are you guys doing?
00:00:26
Savage Boston
We are, ah we're busy with ah a lot of lot of stuff going down, a lot of drama going down right now.
Reactions to Celtics Trades: Holiday & Porzingis
00:00:32
Savage Boston
ah We were just saying off air, i was I was hoping, you know, we figured this would be like just Patriots collect our thoughts time, like think about the roster but for our like 20th podcast about how many receivers can make the team.
00:00:44
Savage Boston
um But, you know, we just had two huge trades go down. So Drew Holiday gets dealt last night. And about an hour before the podcast starts tonight, it was Chris Tapsburg's Zingas gets dealt. So I guess let me just take your initial reaction, Nick. How do you feel? What's your first take on the two trades? Yeah.
00:01:05
Nick
Yeah, I mean, not surprised, right? I mean, I think all of us saw this coming. I saw this coming before the Tatum injury. yeah I've been talking about it and I'm not the only one. People have been talking about that second apron ever since the Celtics traded for Porzingis and then traded for Holliday. Everybody knew that the bill was going to come due here.
00:01:23
Nick
And so I know some people are going to sit there and talk about new ownership and hedge fund.
00:01:25
Bret
Thank you.
00:01:27
Nick
That's not what's happening. What's happening was going to happen no matter who the owner was, if it was going to be Wick or somebody else, because you've got to get under that second apron. And they were just motivated to do it more with the Tatum injury.
Celtics' Financial Strategy and Competitiveness
00:01:39
Nick
I mean, if they won a championship and went back to back, could they have kept one of these two guys?
00:01:44
Nick
Maybe. but But I think this was inevitable. And I would not be surprised if more stuff actually happens before the draft tomorrow night.
00:01:52
Savage Boston
Yeah, I mean, I think we all talked about it. We thought Hauser might be one of the guys to go, which is a really common take.
00:01:57
Nick
Yeah. Yeah.
00:01:59
Savage Boston
I just want to – I have this really good side-by-side. I want to give this guy a shout-out. I don't know who this is, but his name is Yossi Goslin. I just saw his account on Twitter, but he has a really excellent salary cap breakdown side-by-side from 20 hours ago to today.
00:02:15
Savage Boston
And you know according to his total salaries and luxury tax from 20 hours ago, the Celtics were paying $512 million dollars for the next fiscal year.
00:02:24
Nick
yeah
00:02:25
Savage Boston
The side-by-side today, after dealing Holiday and Porzingis, the total salaries and luxury tax they'd be paying $274 million. million dollars So by trading those two guys, we've somehow, I saw the figure earlier, they saved $210 million, but potentially saving upwards of, according to this guy, $240 million dollars by dealing those two players.
00:02:48
Savage Boston
So, I mean, in my opinion, like you got to just give Brad Stevens credit at this point, don't you?
00:02:54
Nick
Yeah, um he's a beast. He's one of the best GMs in the game. I think that's hands down. I don't think anybody would disagree with that, with what he's done ever since he took over for Ainge. I mean, I think he's one of the best in the business. I think he's the best GM in New England.
00:03:09
Nick
And, you know, kind of reminds me of of when you had Theo and and some other greats. Obviously, Belichick had his awesome run with some of the guys that he had. But I also i look at this, man, and you guys – You know this as well.
00:03:21
Nick
This isn't just all about the money. I mean, the fact is the second apron kicks you in the balls.
00:03:26
Savage Boston
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:03:27
Nick
It's absolutely ridiculous. it's it's It's pretty much impossible to continue to run a team, not only financially, but functionally.
00:03:38
Nick
When you're in that second apron, you can't combine contracts. You can't aggregate contracts to make a bigger deal. ah They start to freeze picks down the road. at at At some point, your draft pick, no matter where you finish at the end of the year, will be the 30th pick in the draft.
00:03:54
Nick
I mean, there's just so many different things. You can't use any of the exceptions. There are so many things. And this is the NBA. They wanted parity. They did not want any more super teams.
00:04:05
Nick
So, I mean, this stuff is crippling. And and frankly... Guys like Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons and stuff, they'll say this. What the NBA did was pretty much install a hard cap.
00:04:16
Nick
They just didn't call it a hard cap because that that's essentially what it does.
00:04:18
Savage Boston
Mm-hmm.
00:04:20
Nick
So, I mean, again, the Celtics had no option to me. It was a two-year window.
00:04:25
Bret
Thank you.
00:04:26
Nick
See if you can win a title. Thank God they won the title before Tatum's Achilles ruptured. So mission
Brad Stevens' Management Acumen
00:04:32
Nick
accomplished. Now you pivot and you kind of set yourself up for future years and hope Tatum can come back sooner rather than later.
00:04:39
Savage Boston
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like for me, Brad Stevens is so refreshing, man. It's like it's having a GM in town that is a smart guy, and intelligent man, knows the game and can relate to other human beings and doesn't come across like a robot, which is incredibly refreshing because obviously I'm not not full pivoting Red Sox right now, but just following the Craig Bresla drama.
00:04:55
Nick
Yeah.
00:05:02
Savage Boston
I just, I can't tolerate how he speaks to other humans and it's creating ah massive fucking problem um with the organization purely.
00:05:05
Nick
Yeah.
00:05:08
Nick
yeah
00:05:10
Savage Boston
So it's, it is really refreshing to have Brad Stevens leading the ship there. And i think with Porzingis, like people online a minute ago, there's a couple other guys that are mad about the trade for Porzingis. You're like, you didn't get any, you got George's knee, knee anger, whatever.
00:05:23
Savage Boston
I'm like, it's not about that. It's not about him. It's about, it's a fucking salary dump. That's the whole thing. They dumped Porzingis salary. Like I don't get why even anyone cares about ah About the return. They, that was, the idea was that the other team wasn't going to force the Celtics to take on some money or something.
00:05:39
Savage Boston
Right. Like it's a salary.
00:05:40
Nick
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, you're you're not going to – there was no way that you were going to be able to pull off two deals –
00:05:47
Bret
Thank you.
00:05:48
Nick
like Brad pulled off with Portland, where you got a piece back in Anthony Simons, who is actually a guy who can score 20 a night for you. That wasn't going to happen because inevitably you had to get 20 million off the payroll.
00:06:01
Nick
So the numbers are the numbers and they had only so many contracts. So you're not going to be able to,
Understanding NBA's Second Apron
00:06:07
Nick
you know, create a situation now, you know, maybe you could have found somebody else for holiday and you could have created a little bit more cap space there.
00:06:17
Nick
Maybe you could have traded Porzingis and did this Niang deal and and and got the $22 million net off of that off of that trade. And then maybe you could have you know brought somebody back better for Porzingis worth a little bit more money if you then shed Hauser.
00:06:32
Nick
But don't forget, i mean we're all fixated on this you know under the second apron, under the second apron. And and there's good reason why we went over it. However, we also have to remember,
00:06:44
Nick
Once they're under the second apron, and maybe they get under the luxury tax, guess what, fellas? They're also going to try to bring some guys back. If you want to try to bring back Luke Cornett, he's going to cost you money.
00:06:55
Nick
That money's going to be on your payroll. That money's against the tax number. If you want to try to bring back anybody that's leaving, If it's Al Horford, if Horford wants to come back for one more season and you want to bring him back.
00:07:07
Nick
So you not only have to create the cap space to get under these these numbers that have been built by the NBA, but you also have to get underneath those numbers enough to then give yourself a chance to re-sign Cornette and or Horford, not to mention whoever else you want to try to sign to a deal.
00:07:26
Nick
I mean, it's it's just... It's so difficult.
Future Strategies for Celtics
00:07:29
Nick
it's so I can't possibly explain this ah good enough because there's so much shit that's involved with this thing.
00:07:37
Nick
The second apron, it's it'll make your eyes glaze over. But once you once you spend the money, I mean, that's it, man. like You've made that decision. You've got a couple of years. The clock is ticking. and And the way I look at it is I'm happy the Celtics spent the money the past couple of years to get that title last season because they did not have to get into the second apron.
00:07:57
Nick
They had to be willing to do that. So I'm happy they did that. And now it's going to be up to Brad to to trim this payroll, to make this team competitive. And I'll tell you guys, and I'm sure both of you feel the same way as I do.
00:08:10
Savage Boston
I can't.
00:08:12
Nick
I don't want anybody else in charge of this thing than Brad. I trust Brad 100%. I think this team will be competitive. I think he'll find a way to add more talent to this team.
00:08:23
Nick
ah You know, we're hearing about them wanting to trade up into the lottery tomorrow night for the draft. I don't think they're done. And I just trust Brad Stevens to be able to put a competent, ah competitive basketball team on the floor.
00:08:36
Nick
And, you know, for people who wanted them to rebuild this whole thing, you know, just just burn it all down. I disagreed with that because, frankly, we don't know when Jason Tatum's coming back. Some guys have come back in seven months.
00:08:47
Nick
Some guys have come back in nine months. You know, KD took a year and a half. You got, you know, Dominique Wilkins, I think, took eight months in his thirty s Klay Thompson took 14 months.
00:08:58
Nick
So what I think Brad's doing here is he's getting under the apron. He's going to get enough under the apron to try to bring back Cornette and or Horford. He's going to try to trade up in the draft tomorrow night to get a better pick who can immediately help you at a higher level than a Baylor Shireman, even though I liked that pick last year.
00:09:17
Nick
And he's also kind of kicking the can down the road because now you have Simons and Niang, two expiring contracts, if If you get good news on Tatum in December and you think he can be back in February or March, now you look at where you're at in this wide open Eastern Conference and you can either peel off Simons if you're if you're concerned about Tatum and you know Tatum's not coming back you know and in the season.
00:09:43
Nick
Then you can pivot and deal Simons the expiring at the deadline. You can deal Niang at the deadline. And then you can kind of really start the refreshing process and walk into the offseason. Or if you get good news on Tatum and he's going to be back by February and you think he's going to give you 85% of what he gave you before he got hurt,
00:10:04
Nick
Well, now in the Eastern Conference, if you've got Simons, Derek White, Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, you can actually make a run in this conference next year. So I think everything that Stevens is doing, it's like playing, you know, people say chess. This is like 10D chess. I don't even know what this shit is.
00:10:22
Nick
But he, I mean, there's so many different levels to this. And I think, again, we should just be thrilled that he's the guy that's, you know, got the got the wheel in his hand.
Challenges in Eastern Conference: Who Can Compete?
00:10:31
Bret
Yeah, I mean, I think the the interesting part is kind of everything you alluded to is what's the next move, right? Everyone knew that we were going to move from Porzingis and Holiday. We had to get under the second apron.
00:10:42
Bret
You know, I thought they got good value for Holiday and what they got with Simmons. I mean,
00:10:46
Nick
Yeah.
00:10:47
Bret
ah Poor Zengis was a complete dump. And my initial reaction was like, well, maybe we could have hung on to him, see if we trade him before the trade deadline and get better value. But then as I got dug into a little bit more, realized the fact that they would have been penalized had they not traded him earlier.
00:11:02
Bret
So I get the move. ah To me, like I said, and everything you just pointed out to, what's Brad's next move? Because this is not it, right? We we imagine that they're going to move Hauser, which is going to help them to get under the first apron and do what we need to do to maybe re-sign a guy. And we got to at least get some kind of a center in the mix, whether it's with Cornett or Horford.
00:11:24
Bret
um But it's also, what do we do in the draft? Where do we go you know midway through the season and how does that look out? you know I think there's definitely options here. And by Brad doing what he did, he freed it all up for us to be able to make that move. So i'd you know it's good to have a guy like him on the – position that he's in because he's able to make those moves and make those decisions and has the wherewithal to know where it needs to be. And so far, he's made all the right moves and pulled all the right triggers to get us to where we need to be.
00:11:57
Bret
Obviously, it's going to come down to what's going to be the health of Tatum and Brown coming in after their you know surgeries and you know knee clean out. But We're in a position now where we need it to get to, and it gives us ah a reset that we can make some moves going into next year and see where it looks like. The East is still a pretty well-open side of the conference that we could make a move next year and actually get in there, provided they get healthy early.
Impact of NBA Financial Rules on Team Strategy
00:12:23
Nick
Yeah, i mean, who are you afraid of anybody in the East? I'm not. I mean, Philadelphia, give me a break. ah The Knicks, nice little run. I'm sure I see some of their fans in some of their Twitter accounts trying to say that, the you know, they broke the Celtics as if this stuff wasn't going to happen before that series. like Okay, celebrate that you made it to the Eastern Conference Finals for the first time in 25 years. Congratulations.
00:12:44
Nick
um yeah I'm not afraid of the Knicks. Brunson still can't defend. Towns still can't defend. I have no idea who's going to be the head coach of that team. So I'm not afraid of them. ah Who else do you have?
00:12:54
Nick
Orlando, they add they added Desmond Bain. I think, you know, they're they're a good team.
00:12:58
Savage Boston
He'll be tough.
00:12:59
Nick
Yeah, they'll be tough. They're physical. We saw in the first round. they're They're not an easy out, but I'm not afraid of them. ah There's really Indiana without Halliburton for maybe the entire year or most of the year like Tatum.
00:13:11
Savage Boston
He'll be out the entire year.
00:13:11
Nick
You know, Yeah, I mean, he's we'll see how it goes. I just don't want to make it sound like it's a fait accompli because I just, you know, went on a rant about how Tatum could come back.
00:13:19
Savage Boston
No, I know, but theyve but they were like, what, at least a full month, a month and a half apart, something like that.
00:13:23
Nick
Yeah, so, I mean, if Tatum can come back, you know, if it's eight months, I mean, you're looking at right around April for Halliburton. So he he's more likely, right? So it's a great point by you. ah So you just you just look at the the landscape of the Eastern Conference. Now, as far as what the next move is going to be,
00:13:39
Nick
Let me shout out Mike Zarin because we're going to give all the love to Brad Stevens and rightfully so. The dude's terrific. But let's not overlook Mike Zarin. He is the numbers guru. He is the guy that that understands how you have to sequence these moves because there's a way that you can sequence these moves.
00:13:54
Bret
Thank you.
00:13:57
Nick
And if you continue to tick off things like the second apron and the first apron, if If you can do them in such a manner, you're allowed to do other things. So it's all going to be on how these things get sequenced.
00:14:10
Nick
And I know John Corrales, my buddy at Locked On, he tweeted this out a few moments ago. He said, you know, writing my reaction to this trade, but I have to mention because I think the sequencing of this trade is pretty smart.
00:14:22
Nick
says that the Seas used Brooklyn's cap space to take Porzingis. Then Brooklyn sends him to Atlanta and then Boston got Niang. probably via a trade exception, which allowed the Celtics, the gist is it allowed them to send out Porzingis' $30 million and get back an $8 million dollars guy.
00:14:40
Nick
So those are those are like all the little details that Mike Zarin's hammering out. And, you know, how can we trade Porzingis and get rid of that $30 million dollars contract and only bring back $8 million.
00:14:54
Nick
And you've got to make sure that you swing it to Brooklyn, then use the exception, and play all these CBA games to get a deal done. So shout out to Zarin because he's the guy working on a lot of that stuff.
00:15:05
Savage Boston
Dude, ah hold on. Like, all this cap stuff for this leap for the NBA, man, like, and the aprons, the
NBA Finals & Small Market Teams Influence
00:15:11
Savage Boston
the luxury tax, the exceptions, it's fucking mind-numbing to me.
00:15:15
Nick
You enjoy it?
00:15:16
Savage Boston
It's mind-numbing, dude.
00:15:16
Nick
You enjoy it? you enjoy it
00:15:19
Savage Boston
Like, and I'm like...
00:15:19
Nick
Yeah.
00:15:21
Savage Boston
I'm fine with math. You know what i mean? Like I'm, I'm not an MIT guy.
00:15:23
Nick
Yeah.
00:15:24
Savage Boston
My math is okay. Last time I checked, it's fucking stupid. And I, and listening to it, like have a cap or don't have a cap.
00:15:31
Nick
Yeah.
00:15:31
Savage Boston
You want good teams.
00:15:31
Nick
yeah
00:15:32
Savage Boston
Do you want fucking parody? Because we saw in this final, nobody liked the final. Nobody watched the final. like like it was It was to me like there was a couple good games, but the markets of Oklahoma City and Indiana, not exactly exciting.
00:15:47
Savage Boston
So like do you want the heavyweight thing? Do you want juggernauts? Do you want big teams? like It honestly feels to me like we used to have this era where it was like guys would go to different teams right and force their way, like the LeBron… and Durant going to Golden State, LeBron go to Miami, right? They're forced their way in these teams and win championships.
00:16:05
Savage Boston
Now it feels like the opposite. Like, guys, it's so flexible, and guys are moving every year. Like, ah teams can be awesome one year, horrible the next. Like, it's – I get it. This is what they wanted, parity.
00:16:16
Savage Boston
But what comes with the parity is you don't want the the product to suffer, and that's what I feel like is happening. So –
00:16:23
Nick
Yeah, I mean, I think it's tough on fans as well because we all see what's going on. And it's it's just a matter of fact that it's incredibly difficult to build a team with any kind of sustainability.
00:16:42
Nick
like you if you And what's happening here, fellas, and what what really sucks, this is what really sucks, is essentially what the and NBA is doing to some teams – is that they're punishing those teams for drafting and developing well.
00:16:59
Nick
The Celtics drafted Jalen Brown. They drafted Jason Tatum. They developed both guys incredibly well. Now you've got to give them the super max deals if you want to keep them.
00:17:10
Nick
And once you give two super max deals out, forget about it. you're you're You're already over $100 million dollars of cap space to two players. You've got to have 15 on your roster.
00:17:20
Savage Boston
Yeah, it's like 60% of the luxury tax.
00:17:20
Nick
So... Yeah, it's bullshit.
00:17:23
Savage Boston
Right?
00:17:23
Nick
So the NBA is punishing a team like the Celtics and saying, hey, look, you made the right picks.
00:17:24
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:17:30
Nick
You developed them the right way. You paid them the max money. But now we're going to hurt you on the back end and we're not going to allow you to go out and get you know another player or two that that get paid high money.
00:17:41
Nick
And I believe, I don't know who, I think it was Kevin O'Connor or Forsberg. One of those guys said this recently and I love i love the idea. They said, look, if you If you draft and develop somebody and you give them a super max, there should be like a percentage of the cap you know that that is tucked away for those specific guys.
00:17:55
Bret
Thank you.
00:18:03
Nick
it was It was similar to the conversation about quarterbacks and should the quarterbacks have a separate market amongst the team payroll because they get paid exorbitantly more.
00:18:13
Nick
And I think that's a good idea. where Like if you draft Tatum and Brown and you develop those guys and you give them the super max, then only a certain percentage of their money goes towards the cap. That would make sense.
00:18:25
Nick
But the and NBA is so frightened of of super teams and and they don't want a team running the league for four, five, six, seven straight years.
00:18:25
Savage Boston
Mm-hmm.
00:18:33
Nick
They they want the parity. They want, you know, teams being able to battle weekend, you know, year in and year out for a championship. That's what they want.
00:18:41
Bret
Well, I don't know if you guys caught it, but during the the opening press conference with Adam Silver right before the NBA Finals started, Silver actually was asked about just this, about having two small market teams in the Finals and what is his thoughts there? and He basically said the way that they view it is there are no small markets and essentially every NBA player, you have their all-star players. And he talked about Shea Gildress and hill ah Halliburton and basically saying like these guys will drive the demand because they're stars.
00:19:15
Bret
And guys like LeBron and KD weren't stars until they won championships. And by winning championships, they can drive stardom. I tend to push back on that belief, and we'll see what happens as it goes through.
00:19:27
Savage Boston
Yeah, I don't really agree.
00:19:29
Bret
But the reality is is most fans root for their team. It's not like the in NFL where people are going watch the Super Bowl just because it's a Super Bowl and it's a one-night event.
00:19:40
Bret
The NBA doesn't have that same... like the man that you see in the NFL. So majority of the times fans are going to watch their team. If their team's not in it, you're going to get some passive NBA fans, but it's not to the level that you see in those and like a league like the NFL.
00:19:57
Bret
So I, yeah, but LeBron's on LeBron's on LA before that LeBron was on Miami, you know?
00:19:58
Savage Boston
Or they'll watch LeBron. Like they'll tune in just to watch LeBron. Like that's like, you I mean?
00:20:06
Bret
I mean, ah he obviously he had his spot in Cleveland for a minute, but I i would say it would,
00:20:06
Savage Boston
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:12
Savage Boston
He's also a unicorn though too, you know?
00:20:14
Bret
Yeah, and ah and you know SGA, nice player, but i mean this is kind of that flashpan type guy. i just i i would push back on that narrative, but you know Nick, like you said, like this is by design. This is what the league wants. Adam Silver talked about it, and this is where they believe it is.
00:20:32
Bret
i just I tend to believe it's not going to be that way, and I think if you look at the results you had in this finals, it was a pretty poorly rated NBA Finals.
Super Max Deals and Financial Planning Challenges
00:20:41
Nick
I think, you know, look at look at Shea. is To me, Shea's a stud. He's been a stud. He's going to continue to be a stud. I think he's one of the better players in the and NBA, hands down. But when i when I look at Oklahoma City, I mean, even Oklahoma City, who is as structured and positioned as any team could possibly be structured and positioned,
00:21:04
Nick
eventually they are going to run into stuff. Like eventually you're going to have to pay Chet Holmgren. You're going to to, you know, you're going to have pay other guys and you're going have to pay Shea and, and it's going to be too much eventually. So even if you have a young team and you, you know, 10 years ago, you could look at a team like OKC and be like, they could possibly run the NBA for like the next eight years, nine years. Cause all their guys are young.
00:21:31
Nick
Those days are over. So, you know, the best GMs are going to, they're going to be able to take advantage of it.
00:21:32
Savage Boston
yeah
00:21:37
Nick
That's why I'm happy with Stevens because I think he's going to be able in a way to take advantage of this. And I think he beat people to the punch with Porzingis and Holiday. And now I think, you know, the fact that he was able to shed this payroll, I mean, they didn't give up.
00:21:53
Nick
They gave up, what, a second round pick between these two deals? They gave up a second round pick and they got back, what, three picks or whatever the hell it was? And then you're getting Simons back and you got rid of all this payroll and you did it in 36 hours, 20 minutes.
00:22:08
Savage Boston
Yeah. No, Brad, Brad did a great, Brad did a great job.
00:22:09
Nick
insane.
00:22:10
Savage Boston
I just think when you compare the leagues, like the NBA compared to the NFL, like who's in a better position, uh, salary cap management wise. And like in the NBA, exactly what we're talking about.
00:22:25
Savage Boston
Like you, you, it's like, if you get a good young player five years in, you have to give him the max or else he'll leave.
00:22:31
Nick
Yeah, but it's and but it's just so difficult because, you know, the NBA ah the nba versus the NFL conversation is is very difficult because –
00:22:38
Savage Boston
I just mean from a cap perspective because, for instance, if you're like the Eagles, right, and you want to be a hyper cash-heavy team and and have a super talented roster, you can do that still.
00:22:41
Bret
Thank you.
00:22:48
Savage Boston
you know And in the NFL, like if you want to make cap, they can make cap. like Guys, it feels like guys were in crazy deals and no one's even in a ton of cap trouble because the money keeps going up too fast.
00:22:59
Savage Boston
The NBA put themselves in this little tight – tight window here with, with, we talk about with aprons and the luxury tax where teams are somehow forced to play young players and then hamstring themselves later.
Comparing NBA and NFL Financial Systems
00:23:12
Savage Boston
Like Jalen Brown gets paid like $60 million dollars a year.
00:23:17
Savage Boston
You had no option. You had to, even if you don't want it, you know what i mean? It's creating these weird positions.
00:23:21
Nick
Yeah, but the reason that is is because, again, you only have so many guys on your team, right? I mean, you can feel the 53. You can feel the 53. The NFLPA, you know, they they got taken advantage of years ago by the owners.
00:23:36
Savage Boston
and yeah
00:23:36
Nick
They're still paying for that. the The owners have all the leverage in the NFL for the most part on these contracts. And we just saw the story that came out with Pro Football Talk today where, yeah, surprise, there's collusion in the NFL, folks.
00:23:44
Savage Boston
and they're colluding shocking
00:23:45
Bret
Thank you.
00:23:48
Nick
So, you know, the NFL is just a different ah a different beast. When you're talking about the NBA, you know, unfortunately what happened is you you you have a certain set of superstars.
00:24:03
Nick
And, you know, those guys throughout time, they were the ones that gained the leverage. They were the ones that gained the power. And they were the ones that were moving the chess pieces, so to speak. The LeBron, like you said, I want to go to Miami. I'm going to Miami.
00:24:16
Nick
Kawhi, all right I'll go to Toronto for one year, but I'm not to be, you know, in Toronto beyond that. So I'll go somewhere else. And you maneuver the Paul George trade because Kawhi wants Paul George in LA.
00:24:27
Nick
So there there was so much power in the hands of the true superstars that the ownership in the league, they started to lose that power and then and they felt that. So, you know, now you're in that situation where when you're the players, it's like the league's making money, the cap going to keep going up, ah you know, and, and the owners going to sit there and they're going put your feet to the fire and say, Hey, look, you got to say yes to this, or or we're not going to play games.
00:24:55
Nick
And, and, And we got big TV deals coming up. So at a certain point, it it it kind of swung the other way where the owners were able to leverage some of that stuff to get what they wanted.
00:25:07
Nick
And I do also think, fellas, that there are a lot of owners. Let's let's not get it twisted. There's a lot of owners in the NBA. that look at this and they say, well, I'm not capable or able or I don't want to ah pay a $500 million dollars tax bill.
00:25:24
Savage Boston
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:24
Nick
And so why should owners who have 10 times, 20 times the amount of money that I have when you've got like a Steve Ballmer, Steve Ballmer, you know, is worth 10 times, 20 times most owners.
00:25:34
Savage Boston
yeah
00:25:36
Nick
So those other auto owners are like, look, man, we can't allow Steve Ballmer to just keep paying the tax every year because he's he's able to pay it. And here I am, like a Witt Grossbeck.
00:25:46
Bret
Thank you.
00:25:46
Nick
You know, his dad was worth, what, like a couple of billion? like To us, that's obviously a shit ton of money.
00:25:52
Savage Boston
And we thought Wick had the money too, but it turns out his dad had the majority of ownership stake, which was shocking.
00:25:52
Nick
But that...
00:25:55
Nick
yeah um But even but even as even his dad, you know what Like, they don't even piss – they don't even – yeah, i he doesn't piss in the same toilet as Bomber does, right?
00:25:59
Savage Boston
Yeah, not the same realm.
00:26:02
Savage Boston
No, no.
00:26:03
Nick
like so So if you're like the Grosbeck family and you're running an m NBA team, you're like, wait a minute. You know, like, we don't have much of a chance if Bomber could just keep coming in with bags of money.
00:26:13
Nick
So
Potential Changes in NBA Financial Policies
00:26:14
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:26:15
Nick
it's it's just – it's such a tough spot.
00:26:17
Nick
But, you know, the NBA, they could do this differently. And I think they took the hard swing – And, you know, we're we're seeing the ramifications of it across the league, man. I mean, Denver had to make a couple of moves before this past season that I think hurt their chances of winning a championship.
00:26:34
Nick
Obviously, the Celtics are cutting payroll. So it's just it's going to cripple those teams that that get into those those areas of pay. It's just it's.
00:26:42
Savage Boston
It just reminds me that like, why don't these, why don't these leagues in all seriousness have more of a strict hard cap, you know, because like, if you truly want, want fairness. If that's it like, what are we going for? are we going for fairness? Are we going for making money?
00:26:56
Savage Boston
Like what's, what's the goal? Because if the goal is fairness, you would have an actual cap, like a true cap. And even the NFL with its absurd, like manipulation of the cap, you still have something to hold you down.
00:27:08
Savage Boston
Baseball obviously doesn't have a cap and they kind of police themselves, right? Like they already have the teams that are always kind of at the top, which why people are so offended by the Red Sox deciding instead to be like a top four payroll, we're they've decided now to be like a bottom 10 to 15 payroll.
00:27:22
Savage Boston
You know, guys guys do about it themselves. But but i agree, like if you want to go for fairness, if that's your goal, then I don't understand why you wouldn't just hard cap it or have like a very small amount of wiggle room.
00:27:35
Nick
Yeah, I mean, ah I think they've – I do wonder, and I don't even know when the next CBA comes up, but I do wonder if they're going to take a look at this and say, all right, maybe we went a little bit too hardcore.
00:27:49
Nick
maybe we maybe
00:27:49
Savage Boston
I think it's gone.
00:27:51
Nick
like Maybe we overcorrected.
00:27:53
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:27:53
Nick
ah But who knows if they're going to do that. I have no idea. I'm expecting Sam Hauser to be gone by tomorrow night.
00:27:58
Bret
Thank you.
00:28:00
Nick
I think that's really the only move that they can make aside from, i mean, if you're if you're entertaining Jalen Brown or Derek White, I just, who else are you going to deal unless they pivot and they and they just kind of deal Simons and he was like more of a, you know, we're going to get that contract and then we're going to send that contract elsewhere.
00:28:19
Savage Boston
they might They might get rid of Simons right away or Niang.
00:28:19
Nick
I don't.
00:28:23
Savage Boston
Honestly, i would I wouldn't put anything past Brad. But for Jalen and Derek, Jalen rumors now are like, are they heating up a little bit? like Is someone going to give a godfather offer for Jalen?
00:28:34
Savage Boston
They could. i don't see them trading Derek White because he's boys with Tatum. I just don't see it.
00:28:37
Nick
Yeah, i agree. i agree.
00:28:39
Savage Boston
Just on a personal level, I don't think they're they're that stupid. um Because you really don't want to piss off Tatum and and they know he's the guy. um I know we don't have a ton of time, Nick, because you want to go you know, we want wrap it up around 30.
00:28:51
Savage Boston
But like, just quick, because you're doing the Patriots podcast, and I'm majority, majority Patriots as well.
00:28:57
Nick
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:58
Savage Boston
I obviously just want to get your take. Why don't you just give me like, give me your initial thoughts on how this offseason has went so far and and OTAs and kind of where you're at.
00:29:08
Nick
i love with what I love what mostly they've done. I mean, I think Vrabel was the right hire. I wanted him before Mayo. Then we found out about Mayo's contract. So that was what it was.
00:29:20
Nick
I think they made the right move times a thousand by moving on from Mayo and being able to get right to Vrabel.
00:29:24
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:29:27
Nick
Vrabel clearly knows how to run a program. And, you know, I think they had a really good free agency. I think they had an excellent draft. That's all on paper. I think that, you know, the things that we've got to remember, they did sign in free agency a number of older guys.
00:29:44
Nick
So you've got to hope that they just don't fall off the cliff. Like Robert Spillane, think, is 29. Landry is 28, 29. Carlton Davis is 28 and has a history of injuries. Morgan Moses is 34 and had surgery in the offseason.
00:29:58
Nick
So, you know, but you've got sign who you've got sign. You can't you can't create free a free agent to say this isn't matter. So whoever's out there, got to get. So I thought they did a good job given the circumstances and free agency.
00:30:11
Nick
I got questions about the offensive line. The offensive line, I think, is going to be better this year than last year, but that's not saying much.
00:30:18
Savage Boston
No
00:30:18
Nick
I mean, it was such a shit show last year. You can't help but be better. But I do have some questions. I mean, is Cole Strange starting at left guard? can Can you believe in him or not?
00:30:29
Savage Boston
no
00:30:29
Nick
ah but Bradbury was a dumpster fire against, you know, in pass protection last year. Morgan Moses, if you look at pro football focus, had one of his worst seasons a year ago. And again, he's 34 coming off surgery.
00:30:41
Nick
So I think there are more questions on the ah offensive line than then we initially might have given credit for. So I'm interested to see how that comes together. You know, is Jared Wilson going to be able to get on the field at camp and leapfrog Bradbury? I think that's possible. Can he take over Cole Strange at left guard?
00:30:57
Nick
I think that's possible. um You know, wide receiver, they're better, but I don't think they're great. They still need an alpha in that room. Diggs is more a 2 than a 1 at this stage, and you hope he's a 2A, not a 2B at this point.
00:31:10
Nick
They're going to need Travion Henderson. They're going need Kyle Williams to not only contribute but be impact players for that offense with their explosivity. Defensively, I think they're going to be great. I mean, great might be a stretch. People might think top three when I say great.
00:31:24
Nick
I think they're going to be a top 10 defense. I think their defensive line is going to wreck shop. I think Carlton Davis, if he gives you 14, 15 games opposite of Christian Gonzalez, that, oh, that cornerback tandem is going to be one of the best in the league, arguably the best.
00:31:34
Savage Boston
He'll be legit.
00:31:39
Nick
So yeah I think defensively, they're going to be really good. um
00:31:44
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:31:45
Nick
But offensively,
00:31:45
Savage Boston
How do you feel about it? let me ask you about really quick. So um people are getting on me today for some reason, really hardcore about Harold, Harold Landry. like I was pulling up like his pass rush win rate stuff. And like, I was trying to tell people like he wasn't the guy you think he was last year.
00:32:00
Savage Boston
I know we've all been through this point. like you know he didn't have the He had him on yeah a few sacks, but a lot of them were clean-up time. um And so you hope he's able to be that pass rush guy on third down.
00:32:12
Savage Boston
But I was surprised to see the kickback. like People see the name, and they just automatically assume online like he's going to be that type of guy and step in. But like I feel like you you still have a ah pretty big hole at edge rusher.
00:32:24
Savage Boston
It's probably your biggest hole other than maybe linebacker still on the defense and like depth at cornerback.
00:32:30
Nick
Yeah, they're going to have to make it up.
00:32:31
Savage Boston
Oh, yeah.
00:32:32
Nick
I mean, Keon White is going to have to have a ah big season. He's going to take that step in year three. I think, though, you know there's there's other ways to generate pass rush than just guys screaming off the edge.
00:32:43
Nick
I think they're going to have a great interior pass
NFL Management: Patriots' Offseason Moves
00:32:46
Nick
rush between Williams and Barmore.
00:32:46
Savage Boston
oh yeah
00:32:48
Nick
And that, to me, is almost more important than that. the edges at this point. I mean, to, to be able to swallow up the interior offensive line and get up the gut and, and flush out the quarterback is just, it's so significant. I mean, we even saw it with Brady for years and years and years. You get, you get up the middle on a quarterback. It it just freezes their brain.
00:33:10
Nick
So I think you'll have the interior defensive line doing their job. I think they're going to have great pass rush on the inside. I also think don't overlook the idea of simulated pressure, which Terrell Williams and Mike Vrabel love to do, where you know defensive linemen drop into coverage, all of a sudden you have a linebacker come in on a blitz.
00:33:27
Nick
So they're gonna i think they're going to do some simulated pressure, which is going to create some some quarterback sacks and hurries and all that. And I also think they'll, you know, they'll they'll choose wisely to blitz their corners and and their safeties.
00:33:40
Nick
So there are there are things that you can do that will inevitably get pressure on the quarterback. I think they'll get pressure. It might not be, you know, traditionally the way you think of it. As far as Landry, you know, it's funny. I kind of agree with you. Like,
00:33:53
Nick
Landry is the opposite of what you think he is. When you look at his analytics and and statistics from last year, he had the sack numbers. But if if you actually look at it, pass rush, win rate, I think i think yeah ESPN is is nicer to Landry than PFF.
00:34:08
Nick
But when you when you look at Landry, he was actually excellent against the run last year.
00:34:13
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:34:13
Nick
And you wouldn't think that. You always think that he's a pin-the-ears-back type pass rusher. He was actually one of the best run defenders on the edge in the entire NFL last year.
00:34:24
Nick
So I think he's a different player than people expect him to be. But I also don't write off the idea of him being back with Vrabel and Williams and them knowing how he ticks, that he'll be a little bit better. I don't know if he'll go back to what he was four years ago, but I think he'll be a little bit better than he was last year.
00:34:41
Savage Boston
And i I feel like every podcast I have to say it, but like we've been hammering the interior line for a while in the last bunch of pods. Um, we had Doug kite on last week talking about this, um, about I'm, I'm not confident. Like if you want to pick one, like huge question mark area, it's the interior line.
00:34:57
Nick
yeah
00:34:58
Savage Boston
and And not to mention, I mean, they could have done a lot more, not just, I know they got Bradbury who's like not the best signing in the world. And then you don't have a left guard. Um, You know, I think you you could have done a lot more to put a veteran next to Will Campbell.
00:35:12
Savage Boston
And again, don't know how many pods in a row they should have been in on Joe Tooney.
00:35:13
Nick
yeah
00:35:16
Savage Boston
They should have done that trade for like a future fourth for Joe Tooney. They blew that. They blew it. Like he's got at least a few more good years left as a vet. He would sit. Imagine if you had Joe Tooney right now penciled in at left guard.
00:35:28
Savage Boston
Like how much different would you feel? You know?
00:35:30
Nick
Yeah, i did ah I did a podcast, one of the podcasts I do. I think it was the Everything Pats one. I did it a few weeks ago when Tooney got the contract extension. And I actually said, like, that's that's one – yeah, that's that's one non – at the time, i said, all right, well, I don't think you have i don't think you trade for Tooney because you've got to pay him at the top of the market or close to the top of the market, and you've already got a win who's getting paid.
00:35:41
Savage Boston
They blew it. Yeah.
00:35:53
Nick
and But that was when I thought that they might sign one of the top tackles. And the fact that you didn't sign one of the top tackles, you didn't spend that kind of money at left tackle.
00:35:58
Savage Boston
yeah
00:36:04
Nick
Now you had that money to spend at left guard. and i would so And so in hindsight, I agree with you. I think that's one regrettable non-move was the Tooney move. Because if if you put Tooney...
00:36:17
Nick
in the middle of Bradbury, who, again, shit his pants an awful lot last year in pass protection in Minnesota.
00:36:22
Savage Boston
Mm-hmm.
00:36:25
Nick
And between you know him and the rookie, Will Campbell, who you know might might struggle, especially at the beginning here, transitioning to the NFL. He might not. Hopefully he doesn't. But to have somebody like Tooney, the anchor between those two guys,
00:36:39
Nick
I think would be just so crucial for this offensive line.
Conclusion and Thank You
00:36:43
Nick
And now what you've got is the big question mark at left guard. and And you don't know if Cole Strange is going to be the guy. You don't know if Tyrese Robinson, is is who flashed a little bit, is going to show up.
00:36:52
Savage Boston
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:36:53
Nick
So, yeah, I mean, I would have felt much more comfortable with Joe Tooney at left guard on June 24th than what they have.
00:37:00
Savage Boston
Yeah, they got – I mean, they got to watch the waiver wire big time time. I mean, guys are going to getting cut this summer, and I wouldn't be surprised for a second if the line um doesn't look a lot different. you You know, I think maybe Bradbury just gets a start until Jared Wilson's ready, but the left guard probably not on the roster right now.
00:37:16
Savage Boston
Or it's Cole Strange, but we'll see. Be down there watching at training camp and and see how it goes. All right, I'll let it off now. i don't want to keep you too long, man. I appreciate your time.
00:37:24
Nick
All right, brother. Well, thanks, guys. This was fun.
00:37:26
Savage Boston
Yeah.
00:37:27
Nick
I appreciate it
00:37:28
Savage Boston
Yeah. and don't sign off yet.
00:37:28
Bret
Appreciate it.
00:37:29
Savage Boston
Let me end the pod. Don't sign off.
00:37:31
Bret
There it is.
00:37:32
Savage Boston
So yeah.