Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Star Trek the Next Generation - I, Borg
29 Plays4 years ago
A very special episode of Star Trek the Next Generation, we get a situation previously unfathomable to the crew of the Enterprise and whose implications will have lasting effects on Starfleet and its relationship to the Borg. Find out what we though about this episode and join in on the discussion! Love, Starfleet Boy.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Starfleet Boy
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Starfleet Boy, where we have a casual and informal discussion about our beloved series, Star Trek.
Star Trek Humor: Sean Connery & TNG
00:00:34
Speaker
All right, and should I just go ahead and start the hangout? Engage. Engage. We have engaged a bog. We have engaged the hue. We have engaged a bog. The bog. Wouldn't Sean Connery have been amazing on Star Trek just in any capacity? In any capacity, indeed. Any capacity, right?
00:01:02
Speaker
Just one ping. Just one ping, Mr. Data. One ping. Oh my god. Welcome back, audience, to another exciting episode of Starfleet Boy, where we have a casual and informal conversation about Star Trek. We are currently focused on Star Trek the Next Formation season five, episode 22.
00:01:33
Speaker
Soi Borg. Joe Soi Borg. Joe Soi Borg. That's the name of this episode. No, I'm just kidding. It's iBorg.
Halloween Hijinks: Dressing Cats
00:01:42
Speaker
But how cool would it... Oh! We haven't engaged the bog. You got to move him over a little bit. We haven't engaged the bog. Oh my. Is that Hugh? Is that Hugh? This is a generic bog.
00:01:58
Speaker
No, let's see him. Can you bring him up close? Can we get it? It is not here. It is not here. This is a generic bog. Okay. But there's some items that are similar. Like some of the armor looks because they are. Oh, look at that. Mm hmm.
00:02:15
Speaker
Oops. Oh, no. The board. Turn off the board are calling me right now. The collective, the board collective is calling. Oh, no. The board collective. I think that that's going to be Arthur's Halloween costume next year is a board. Did you dress up Arthur for Halloween this year?
00:02:38
Speaker
Uh, no, he only wore his little Halloween bow tie. He has a bow tie with little fish skeletons. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. That's cool. So that's what he wears at Halloween for the last two years. But I tried, I looked at, there's no, he's kind of a petite cat. He might be, he might be the runt of his litter. So he's not like a huge cat. Um, so it's hard to find a costume that fits him.
00:03:04
Speaker
I, uh, I had some, uh, contenders this year, but they just didn't work out. They were, I think they were like going to be too big on him. Right. I know it's hard. Also, if you don't find the right costume and you make them wear it, they're pretty, they get angry. I've seen on videos of cats being like,
00:03:25
Speaker
I'm not dressed up as a cat To the audience that's new to Starfleet boy. This is nothing new. I have worn this hat before and It is not a cat. It is a fox
00:03:39
Speaker
I might be Star Fox. I never thought of this, but I'm Star Fox. Oh, the old Nintendo game. That was one of my favorite games ever.
iBorg Episode Summary
00:03:48
Speaker
I played that for hours and hours and hours as a child. Star Fox.
00:03:55
Speaker
What a great way to start off this episode. The crew of the Enterprise encounter a distress signal as they're exploring a new, um, uh, uncharted, uh, solar system. And, uh, they decided to investigate as they always do, and they find, uh, they send Beverly, uh, Worf and, no, is it Beverly Worf and Riker go down? I just watched this and I don't care.
00:04:27
Speaker
Why the fuck do I have to talk to it? I already know it's going to kill me Anyway, so they go down to I've been dropping a lot of curse words lately on surf loop point I want to just say that like we are PG 13 so I have to
00:04:45
Speaker
I have to check myself. Oh, I'm sorry. I dropped a lot of a lot of foul language on the show. I think that's I think we're in line with PG-13, which is the goal for Starfleet boy But I just want to make sure just because it's nighttime. I might curse This is Starfleet boy after dark Should I turn the lights down?
00:05:07
Speaker
You did, too. And it's only nighttime because we fell back. Right. Today is the first day of falling back in the time. That's just a little... Okay, going back to the summary.
Ethical Dilemma: Using Hugh to Fight Borg
00:05:20
Speaker
So Beverly Riker and Worf and maybe Jordy all find... Data's probably there, maybe, actually. Can't remember. So bad. Did you watch the episode, sir? I totally watched it, but I just have the worst mind.
00:05:35
Speaker
Or are you going from memory as you said you could do this from memory without one? No, I did say that but I did watch it. I do have to admit that at the beginning I was distracted because I was making coffee. So this is the part the coffee part. Okay Go for it man
00:05:51
Speaker
Anyways, they do discover that there's one survivor and they have a whole debate In the moment about whether what to even do should we just leave him here? The Borg are gonna come back like we can't there can't be any evidence that we were here and then Beverly basically says well It's too late for that. I've already started treating him and so Picard has to make a tough decision. So he decides to beam the Borg aboard despite his his
00:06:20
Speaker
first instincts and he detains it. What do they say? Like a detainment field or something like that. Anyways containment field. Yeah containment field. So anyways Picard then comes to examine this fallen soldier board drone and
00:06:37
Speaker
In the moment can Cox and I don't blame him if I hated the Borg as much as he does in the moment. He concocts an idea And he presents it right there in sickbay above this this like injured dying Borg and says well if we're gonna revive it and and bring it back to health could we also send it back with the equivalent of a virus that would disable
00:07:01
Speaker
the Borg and render them no longer a threat to the Federation and others.
00:07:10
Speaker
Everyone's like yes, let's do it Except for doctor except for Beverly who immediate protest from the beginning right and you can cut usual Yeah, but you can understand her perspective. She's actually like right when she says later on I think That she said something like well from my perspective. I'm healing an individual I don't see the the board, but I do think that like
00:07:34
Speaker
Beverly wasn't there at Wolf 359, she didn't experience the carnage that everyone else aboard the ship experienced, so we can kind of probably understand her perspective. Anyways, so that just kind of got, we just talked about another part of the plot there, but basically they end up reviving the Borg and installing a power conduit so that
00:07:56
Speaker
it can sustain itself while they examine it and try to determine how to infiltrate its root systems and implant this virus into its system so that it can get it back to the board. Meanwhile, there's a time crunch because long-range sensors detect that there is, in fact, another scout ship on its way to investigate why the previous one went dark. So they have to figure this out pretty quickly.
Guinan's Influence and Picard's Decision
00:08:24
Speaker
In the meantime,
00:08:26
Speaker
Dr. Crusher and Jordy start to do the the examinations and well they as was bound to happen they become friends with them and even give it a name because well we know that Jordy and Beverly are very friendly so they give it the name Hugh and Guinan's horrified by this she's like you could tell she like almost wants to like
00:08:55
Speaker
just like slap Jordy when he when he oh look everyone's coming into this uh this summary you gotta say something we gotta see her oh yeah oh no Jordy stop stop no no wow that's really good uh kabuki theater there doctor thank you thank you
00:09:22
Speaker
Anyway, she's horrified and then she meets it and then they have a conversation and the Borg surprises her because the longer it's separated from the collective, the more it has to kind of make calculations and think for itself. So it's starting to manifest a personality.
00:09:38
Speaker
known as Hugh anyways Guinan then goes to Picard and tries to convince him to see the Borg and Picard is just outraged it's really good scene I thought we'll have to discuss that one in depth I don't know what you thought doctor but finally she's like well if you're gonna condemn you know regardless of how you feel about the Borg if you're gonna condemn them to system failure which is the same as
00:10:04
Speaker
which is town amount to genocide. You may as well, you know, go and talk to it. Or him, everyone's calling him him at this point. Anyways, so Picard agrees and he does a strange thing. He beams Hugh into his ready room. I thought he would go down to the containment area.
00:10:24
Speaker
But he beams Hugh to his ready room, and then he asks Worf to leave the room. And then when Hugh recognizes him and calls him Locutus, Picard immediately jumps on this and decides to see what's really at the root of all this. Because he thinks the boarder capable of all manner of deception, right? So he's very suspicious. And he's just pounding and hammering Hugh. And we get the full Picard.
00:10:55
Speaker
And And then he says something he says I identifies himself as I and this like Totally throws Picard need suddenly stops speaking like locutus and goes back to his normal self and now he's like
00:11:11
Speaker
you know that everyone comes to their senses at the end and kind of it's not like really I think you know to them they were just like okay well obviously now we can't do this so then they're like okay well we're gonna put this uh board back and hopefully
Hugh's Return: Spreading Individuality
00:11:26
Speaker
Hopefully a little bit of his individuality will infect the Borg. And it does! In not so great ways. But we can't talk about that. We can't talk about that yet. Today we're only focused on... Eiborg. How was my summary? Was it a good summary? Eiborg. We're like, hi, Borg.
00:11:46
Speaker
Hi, Borg. Get to office. Hi, Borg. Get to office. There we go. That was a very good summary. Thank you. Was it a good summary, really? It was a very good summary. Yes, it was. I'm good. I'm good. Yes, it was. Excellent. It was. Doctor, it's nice to have you back.
00:12:05
Speaker
It's nice to be back. Do you remember in like 95 or whatever it was the year? Yeah, of course I remember. This episode came out and how did you feel about it back then? It was controversial. It was controversial.
00:12:25
Speaker
I can't profess to remember anyone's, like, I don't have the kind of mind where I can be like, oh, you said this or you said that. But I do remember that you guys thought I was ridiculous for liking this episode as much as I did, and now I realize why. And what is the reason? So in high school, I wasn't really out or any, like, there was no talk of my sexuality. Whenever anyone even asked me, like, you know, do I like girls or guys, I would just say I'm asexual, right?
00:12:55
Speaker
I remember now watching this episode. I had the hugest crush on Hugh.
00:13:02
Speaker
I actually thought he was attractive and Jonathan Del Arco the actor who plays him is actually very attractive You can't tell I guess he's so attractive to me that I could tell underneath all this This is like one of those moments where your mom would be like, okay Why would say well I'm a crush on a board look at how ugly that Wow
00:13:26
Speaker
But I do remember, so I think that was the reason for my, uh, my sort of, uh, deep, um, I would just say deep, uh, love. Whoa. Where'd you go? Wow. Now you know something new about.
00:13:45
Speaker
about me that you did not know before but it still doesn't explain well i love this episode because i was in love with hue the board and i had a total like hormonal driven hormone driven crush
00:14:04
Speaker
Which should tell you something about me as an individual that I'm a cybernetic character Well in in your defense in your defense They do try to teddy bear teddy bear eyes Is that old term?
00:14:23
Speaker
The board yes the board as much as they can in this episode which which really? Yeah, he comes across as an adolescent in many ways and one of the cues is the rounded edges on all of his Yeah, like he has like very round like even his feet look like the rest of the board looked like they're wearing boots if I recall but his feet kind of seem like
00:14:46
Speaker
Like these little pads round there's just something interesting about that and there's no way to know if he was even a human They never tried. They never know because there's no way to know like I think it's I would think genetically. Yes, they could test. Oh, that's true. I mean Tissue, uh Okay
00:15:09
Speaker
Did I just throw you a curveball? No, no, no. It opens up the first door, which is Hugh himself. Also, the voice modulation is very different. Hugh, they tone down the harshness.
00:15:30
Speaker
of you. If you listen to the Borg and the other episodes that they're in, they're much more mechanical, even locutus. Did you notice, though, that they do it throughout, they do it more, it's more pronounced at the end of the episode as in individuality? Oh yeah, absolutely. So I did like that, actually. I thought that was true. By the time he's in Picard's ready room, he's positively
00:15:53
Speaker
Um, you know his personality he's yeah, he's like a disney character at that point. I mean he's like bambi or dumbbell. I mean he's just like You know, I mean no seriously like nobody has a big like he has the big eye and it kind of has the sympathy Yeah, I never noticed that before but now that you pointed out like that was probably pretty good on the part of the design team Maybe it's not like the most
00:16:20
Speaker
like the most, um, maybe it's a little obvious over your head, hit you over the head, but I think A for effort, right? I will say this. I have very conflicted feelings about this episode. Um,
00:16:34
Speaker
Obviously my initial reaction way back when was much harsher and it remains very critical today. I will say this, it is a very well acted episode.
00:16:52
Speaker
It's a Geordie Crusher episode, if you want to call it that.
Character Reactions & Moral Implications
00:16:58
Speaker
But it's very well balanced in that Geordie and Crusher have a lot to do and contribute to the episode. Everyone's in it.
00:17:06
Speaker
Troy even protests like there's a lot there's a there's two times that I recall there was a debate about the state of hue and what they were gonna do and like things like that and I thought it was interesting like who was always it was surprising who was it like all four like Annihilating the board and Troy seemed to be for it. You know like wharf is definitely for it Rikers for it Troy's for it and
00:17:29
Speaker
it starts out as Beverly not being forward and then it moves to Jordy and then Guinan and then of course Picard is faced with like this this decision at the end um but yeah i just thought i thought about the acting in this episode it was actually quite superb what is the template for you that this is trying to kind of shed light on like what is this episode what real life
00:17:54
Speaker
thing does this episode address is it individuality like that whole idea that like we it's easier to like it's easier to destroy an enemy when they are faceless and unknown to you you know like the the whole concept of the other uh is that where where this episode ultimately is presenting
00:18:15
Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely. Also, I think, you know, I don't think I picked up on it when I originally watched it as a kid, but I do now is the fact that Hugh is something, is portrayed something like an adolescent.
00:18:32
Speaker
Um, which I, I think I completely missed until this rewatching really. And, and so then, you know, it kind of, not, now you, you, you think of it in context of, well, you know, look at, uh,
00:18:49
Speaker
in other parts of the world where people strap bombs on kids and certainly isn't that what Picard is doing? In essence, he's strapping a bomb on a kid and he's sending them into Borg Town Square to set something off, which, yeah, go ahead.
00:19:13
Speaker
That's deep. I never thought about that until you just mentioned it. But the idea that he was an adolescent, I think I did pick up on that, obviously, since I was probably examining the looks of the Borg really deeply now that I had a crush on him.
00:19:31
Speaker
on the character. But it also recalled and kind of like advanced our knowledge of the Borg in a sense because in the previous episodes we've seen that they do
00:19:46
Speaker
not only do the Borg assimilate, but they also, uh, have like a reproductive factory in which they were, remember there were babies being incubated. So these, those particular Borg, like you can imagine border processed in all kinds of way. There's like, Oh, we've assimilated this planet and we will add their distinctiveness to us. And then there's the longer term, like, Oh, we're going to like have to keep these genetic, you know, these, um, bio portions active. So let's,
00:20:16
Speaker
produce Borg babies. Jonathan Del Arco's character Hugh is one of those, I believe, Borg babies. It was born
00:20:25
Speaker
aborg it was not like assimilated in this traditional sense of like as an adolescent it could have been we don't have enough information to say but I'm saying I think you're right because if and now now I'm Going into Voyager territory, which I'm shaky on I'm not very strong a boy I do believe that you know seven of nine was assimilated
00:20:50
Speaker
You know, she was already, you know, a child or whatever and then was assimilated, but she has memories prior to being assimilated. This- And Hugh doesn't have- Hugh doesn't seem to have any memories other than just being in the Bora Collective. So I think you are correct in assessing that. That he is one of those babies that you, they pulled the drawers and there are these Bora purple babies in there. I mean, he's one of those for sure. So you're right. I think you're absolutely right.
00:21:20
Speaker
And I think that's an interesting thing. It's just like there's a lot. There's a lot. I thought when, you know, obviously I had, you know, some some other reasons to like really enjoy this episode. But now, you know, on this rewatch, I noticed a lot of things like that. I also thought it was interesting, the like kind of dynamic of how his humanity
00:21:46
Speaker
I don't want to call it humanity. The very word human is racist. Is individuality as they say in the episode. It comes through and I think that
00:22:05
Speaker
My favorite scene is the scene where Guinan goes to meet him, because her surprise to me was the most... I really love the scene where Picard confronts him because we get the full Picard, but to me that kind of, I remember being very impactful to me as a young person, because I didn't have a frame of reference per se to understand that. We didn't grow up with the threat of the Borg.
00:22:35
Speaker
You know, but we do grow up all of us No matter where we live on planet earth with kind of like this
00:22:45
Speaker
um you know deep rooted fear that the other or you know they are coming like whoever they are like the enemy as Picard refers to it uh in this episode so you can always relate to that and you know one can't help but think like well I'm someone's enemy too like I'm you know as an American we're viewed as
00:23:06
Speaker
an enemy to perhaps you know some other group you know either or a frenemy maybe even we're hoping we're just frenemies but you know that's the way it is and so like i can't help but wonder like where where's the common ground and i think that this episode like kind of makes you think about those things and there's no answer i have no answer for it
00:23:29
Speaker
Well, I guess it's timely that we're watching this with the caravan, this infamous caravan that's coming to us that Trump is making such a huge deal out of and saying, you know, they're full of murderers and rapists or whatever. And, you know, I mean, are there really? I mean, some people say it's just a bunch of, you know, I mean, there are people fleeing, you know, refugees fleeing countries where
00:23:59
Speaker
uh, gangs are threatening to kill their kids and stuff. So, um, yeah, I mean, is that, is it a caravan of Borg that's coming towards us? Yeah, it's a tough question. I guess that's like the ultimate question. Uh, and, and this episode I think gave us the best response you could
00:24:20
Speaker
Expect of like this more enlightened version of humanity You know because we do have to remember that like these are not sometimes when they make decisions that seem like you know Uncharacteristic of like what we would do in our times It's to teach us possibly another way of reacting So I think that's cool
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's all I got to say about. I did write some notes. Did you write any notes? No, I'm going as usual. I don't write notes going straight off the top of my head. Like I said, the acting was excellent. I have to admit, I thought I was especially impressed with what they did with the characters of Guinan and Picard. You know, those are two characters that are normally infallible.
00:25:12
Speaker
and the episode was gutsy enough to put them in a position where suddenly the viewer, the audience, is questioning whether or not they, these two infallible characters, well, are they? Are they actually making the right, are they speaking wisdom this time? Especially Guinan. Guinan is sort of like this character that is almost, you know,
00:25:41
Speaker
omnipotent and just seems to know exactly what's going on. She does her great kind of thing in the fencing scene where she teaches Picard like a lesson. And she teaches that lesson. That fencing scene was great by the way. I love that.
00:26:00
Speaker
I especially love that scene, you know, she fakes being injured and then Goes in for the kill and you think okay, here's her, you know showing up the card and saying, you know No, don't forget that they are the enemy but then Jordy and you know, I I think I've said it before that Jordy is sort of the He's he's he's definitely
00:26:27
Speaker
The guy, if you want to humanize the enemy, you do it through Geordi. We've seen it before with the Romulans. We'll remember that Geordi made a Romulan friend a couple of seasons ago, and that was a great episode. And it's something that LeVar Burton
00:26:55
Speaker
You know, it's a credit to his acting because it's it's nothing. None of it is forced. It's just so friendly. Yeah, but he also manages to convince you that he's also really pissed. Yeah, because because he like.
00:27:13
Speaker
Some of his comments, and again, the performance is wonderful. LeVar Burton, if you ever hear this, I hope you're honored.
00:27:27
Speaker
No, he's pissed like and you could tell you like he did there's it that feels just as real as Geordi's normal nature which is to be he is he is the most friendly character and and he and I think that like He embodies that spirit of friendship that the Federation is supposed to espouse as well, which is pretty cool. Yeah, Geordi
00:27:52
Speaker
What's going on? It's Jordy on the phone there. I think Jordy is the unsung hero of this episode really.
00:28:06
Speaker
And he kind of fulfills the same role that he does in that Romulan episode. That's the immediate comparison that comes to mind. And then, of course, Beverly Crusher also, you know, the episode naturally draws out her
00:28:24
Speaker
her natural instincts and not really caring who the injured party is, just that this is a being who needs help and she doesn't care who it is. And I think that's one of her great qualities. So this episode really does a great job of highlighting the
00:28:50
Speaker
the better qualities of these two characters of Crusher and Geordie. And there are two characters that don't often, you know, overall they don't get the huge chunk of the attention on this show and I appreciated that they were the ones. And I think one of the best scenes in the show is the one where the two of them have Hugh in the
00:29:13
Speaker
In the lab, the same lab that Data uses. And the same lab from, right, to create lol. And then later on, Locutus is there. But I think it's right before they get Hugh. And Jordy kind of is angry at Crusher a bit.
00:29:30
Speaker
And he's kind of being pissy with her. And she's like, well, I know what I have to do, but I don't have to like it. And it's a rare moment of disagreement amongst this cast. One of the things that people typically attack Next Generation for is that everybody just gets along to them well. But here's an episode where you actually see people disagreeing and trying to
00:29:59
Speaker
put their points of view across without calling somebody stupid or whatever. They're just, okay, fine, we gotta do this, but I don't have to like it. But you move on, you go on and you do your job. And I think, I know you've many times have said that this is a great
00:30:18
Speaker
Next Generation is a great showcase for what you're supposed to do in the workspace. It teaches you protocol, it's like a really great way to learn that. Yeah, I think this is another episode where it shows effective workspace protocol. We have the Borg, we don't want the Borg in our space, but damn it, okay, I've said my piece, I'm gonna keep on and I'm gonna
00:30:47
Speaker
whatever, scan his innards or whatever. I think that I would have liked, and I don't know if you feel the same way or if you had to stop, but watching it this time around, I was thinking it would have been neat to have a little bit more of Data's perspective in this episode because I think that
00:31:08
Speaker
he should have an opinion on it, considering that the Borg are just another variation of, you know, a life form that's not, you know, your usual carbon-based situation. So I don't think I ever got much of a sense other than, of course, Data, I think, assisted Jordy in making the paradoxical shape that's going to confound the Borg.
00:31:40
Speaker
That's probably the weakest part of the episode, but yeah, okay I have to give it though I have to give it a hats off to its complete originality because You would think that it was gonna be code right like that's what I thought like that. They were gonna put code Into its root systems because that's how you and we imagine modern computers
00:32:02
Speaker
being like that, right? But their solution is to present the computer with something that's going to overwhelm. I mean, this shape is just going to get the computer to completely focus on it all throughout all. And, you know, it'll it'll fry the system just because it's like an impossible shape to understand. But the computer will think that three or five saw it and want to know what. What is this? You know, whatever this lab computer does not compute.
00:32:31
Speaker
Of course, we don't know the board queen at this point, so I have a feeling that she would have stepped in and been like, you fools, stop analyzing this shape. Oh, locutus, keep trying, my darling. You kinky devil.
00:32:49
Speaker
Acting aside Well, yeah, I mean obviously You know as I said Patrick Stewart is excellent and and whoopi Goldberg is going in and I liked that those two characters were tested in the way that they were All of that aside There are things about the episode I highly dislike and
00:33:21
Speaker
And some of it has to do with the original timing of the episode.
00:33:29
Speaker
It doesn't hold up those complaints don't hold up as much now But at the time the thing that really upset me is that I just you know, we'd only seen the Borg in on three occasions We'd seen them in the original appearance with with Q and then we'd seen the best of both worlds and which were just phenomenal episodes and Right away, you know, what is Star Trek gonna do? Okay, we're gonna we're gonna make them nice
00:33:58
Speaker
And I make one of them nice. Well, make them nice. And I think there, you know, I come from this is just me. Obviously, this is me where I come from. I come from a viewing history where, you know, I like my bad guys bad.
00:34:25
Speaker
You know, I watched a lot of Doctor Who, you know, the Daleks are irredeemably evil. The Cybermen are irredeemably evil. I think there is great
00:34:39
Speaker
There's great value in having an irredeemable villain. I like monsters. I say monsters in the Doctor Who sense. Doctor Who had this idea of the monster of the week or whatever. And it was basically the villain of the week. But I like that idea of something
00:35:02
Speaker
that it's just irredeemably evil that you have to fight. I think in American terms, maybe the horror movies are more akin to that where you have in the slasher movies, I guess, the Freddy's and the Jason's, not that I'm a big fan of those movies, but even the mummy or creature or whatever, although they're not irredeemably evil. But still, just something, a force that you just cannot
00:35:32
Speaker
Reason with It's coming after you. It's coming to get you. I think there's great value in that and the Borg
00:35:43
Speaker
when they were first introduced was something that Star Trek had just never had before. Even the Klingons really, obviously the Klingons are not monolithic because they're a race and they have culture and all this stuff, but the boar were presented to me in my eyes as like this finally monolithically
00:36:05
Speaker
bad guy, evil race, they're just relentlessly just gonna come after you no matter what. In many ways, they're like high-tech zombies.
00:36:20
Speaker
Today we have zombies aplenty, but I think somebody could make a case to trace the beginnings of this zombie resurgence back to the board. Because I think after first contact is when we had, shortly after we had 28 days later, and then after that we just started having zombies left and right. But really I think the idea of this relentless
00:36:47
Speaker
You know, undead, basically they're undead in a way. You know, invasion force is just awesome. And I really wasn't ready to have an episode where suddenly we get to know them and hug them and cuddle with them. I just wasn't ready for that. I wanted more relentless
00:37:16
Speaker
just the board coming after the enterprise and the enterprise having to shoot their way out of it. It's not what I wanted and it wasn't to give Voyager some credit. When Voyager basically did the same thing with Seven of Nine,
00:37:35
Speaker
It was already after first contact. So we'd already had more time with the Borg and I think Voyager did the right thing in doing it then because enough time had passed. But I personally don't think I was ready for a kinder cuddlier Borg at that time and I still don't think it was the right decision.
00:38:01
Speaker
I do think, though, that I appreciate your saying before you went on that very informative... Uh... My BORA grant. Your BORA grant. Very informative one. Now I understand how you feel a lot more, which is cool. But before you did say that...
00:38:20
Speaker
This was stronger feeling in the in the moment and that now having had first contact and realizing that it this episode ultimately didn't alter that that Bad bad guy, you know it did for a while, but then we went back to the bad bad guy first contact I guess what you can say though, you know, what's neat is what's neat though is that
00:38:40
Speaker
Again, the reason why I say perhaps that this episode like a good wine age is better, you know, like is because it actually like, you know, and again, I don't know that there was any like real intention. It would be amazing if the writers were this clever. But this just happens sometimes in a show where I think Seven of Nine enhances this episode. I think First Contact enhances this episode because it gives you this idea of like the Borg
00:39:10
Speaker
that even the individuality of Hugh didn't infect the Borg as they had hoped. What they'd ended up doing was just like a cancer slicing off a section of these Borg and just being like, you're ostracized from the collective. You know what I mean? Like the actual Borg wasn't even affected by this. You know what I mean? Like we didn't know that until first contact, but that's what I'm saying is like the pay. That's why this episode gets better.
00:39:36
Speaker
after every, you know, like it's a little bit better after. Yeah, but in the moment, it sucks. No, I agree. I agree. Well, I agree where you're coming from. And then the next two episodes. If I didn't have a crush on Hugh, I would feel the same exact way. But unfortunately, my experience was the one you couldn't have had until Seven of Nine. No, it has nothing to do with my feelings of nine. I don't like Seven of Nine at all. Whatever. I hate Seven of Nine as a character.
00:40:05
Speaker
I'm just saying that by the time we get to Voyager, you know, we've had more history with the Borg. So the idea of having a rehabilitated Borg didn't sting as much. But having... Yeah. No, I agree. I see what you're saying. 100%.
00:40:25
Speaker
But I'm glad you found some, Val. I hope it makes it to at least a five. I'm hoping you give it at least a five. That would be the happiest I would ever be. But we haven't gotten to that quite yet. No, no, we haven't. Do you have anything from the books, the various books we consult? Well, actually, before we go to the books, Hugh has made it into a few other
00:40:55
Speaker
non-canon media related to Star Trek. I always like to share those and let me see if I can remember how to, okay, screen share. There we go, we're gonna do screen share for ladies and gentlemen. All right, so here we go, share.
00:41:14
Speaker
And I'm, hold on. So this is Cry Havoc and- And let's slip the dogs of war. And ladies and gentlemen, does that not look like Bane?
00:41:27
Speaker
Do you see that? Can you hit the present to everyone button? Oh, am I not doing that? It should be up there on the top, like the green area present to everyone. No. Oh, I think I can use my commander skills. Hold on. All right. Now it's on the screen for everyone. Oh, your background's Emma. That's so cool.
00:41:52
Speaker
You mean Bane like Tom Hardy who like that same character? Do you not see what I'm seeing? Oh, you don't see what's on my screen right now? I see a Tholian. Okay, but don't you see Bane right here? Oh, I don't know enough about Bane from the comics to know that that's Bane. Oh yeah, Bane from Tom Hardy Bane. That looks like Bane, doesn't it?
00:42:18
Speaker
That's Bane and Hugh right there. I don't know why he was hanging out with- In this comic, what is that? In this comic, apparently the Tholians team up with the Borg somehow. Ooh. Yeah, so- Ooh, maybe Tholians can't be assimilated.
00:42:36
Speaker
Perhaps perhaps they had they like exist in these extreme environment. Yeah, but it is I just want to go back I mean the I love the cover the cover is let me get to that's the cover. That's Hugh right there Hmm. It's a little older Hugh
00:42:52
Speaker
Yeah, well yeah, this is issue 75, so it's later on. I wonder how far Hugh goes. I wonder if there's, do you think there's a story that's yet to be told in the upcoming Star Trek Old Man Picard series? Oh my, I don't know about that. I've stopped sharing by the way, right? Yes. Yes, you're back. We're back to normal. Okay, I didn't want to hijack the show too long.
00:43:18
Speaker
But yeah, Hugh appears in that issue, and then apparently he also appears in the William Shatner written Avenger, in which Hugh and Captain Kirk have an adventure together. Apparently Hugh heals his wounds. Wow, Hugh's resonated.
00:43:42
Speaker
Apparently the character resonated with more than just this little guy who had a crush back in the 90s 92. Apparently, apparently 93 that's interesting. Yeah. So yeah, and you're saying William Shatner wrote this book. Like how did that happen? Was he like, whoa, she had several books. Um, uh, you know, he wrote, yeah, he wrote several. He wrote like the definitive.
00:44:08
Speaker
I could see Shatner. I could see William Shatner sitting at home perhaps with a glass of whiskey or some beverage and he's just like let me just turn on the TV and this episode he's never seen Next Generation at all. He's never seen it. He's there. This is his first episode. Why would he need to see it? This is his first episode of Star Trek. And he's watching and he goes
00:44:30
Speaker
Darling, and whoever he's with at the time. Antonio. Darling, Antonio, this is insane. Look at what they've done to Star Trek. It's out of control. There's a Borg and there's a, wow, and I just want to write more about it. I don't know what a Borg is, but I want to write more about it. I want to do more about the Borg. Hugh, Hugh, what a simple name, Hugh. It's a beautiful name. I want you to heal my wounds.
00:45:01
Speaker
I just want to know how that happened. Like how did like William Shatner discover this episode? I don't know. And then decide to write a book about you. I think that's lovely. I don't know. It's called Adventure and you're free to reread it. It's available from Balting Books in digital format and in print.
00:45:22
Speaker
Ballantyne, right? Ballantyne. Very nice. And where else has Hugh reared his ugly, his fellow cabeza? You know, other than the other episode, you know, which he's in later on, very few, very, very little. He's actually he's in a next generation novel called Greater Than The Sun.
00:45:51
Speaker
And I know very little about that, but it is one of the more recent. It involves the Enterprise-E. So it is a more recent Star Trek novel.
00:46:08
Speaker
But I know very little, oh, and it's part of the, you had mentioned Star Trek Destiny in the last episode. It is part of that trilogy of novels. Well, it's rumored that the television series with Picard will probably be somehow based on those books or present some themes from those books. One never knows.
00:46:36
Speaker
I really hope it's TNG part 2. Do you want Hugh to return in Old Man Picard? Well, yeah, especially if it's an ongoing series with no end date. If it's like a limited series, I think I'd want to save the episodes for more pressing things. But if it's an ongoing series and there's no, you know, if Pat Stewart's like, I'll just do this.
00:47:03
Speaker
until I can't then I would think there's room for everyone like I think you should make an appearance for sure you know Wow further down the line maybe in the in this in the second season five
00:47:18
Speaker
I think there's another thing we talked about him in the previous episode. I should really know his name, but the guy who created Rick and Morty has also been running for several years a Twitter, apparently, and I learned about this from Sean also, by the way, from Trek on the Tube.
00:47:39
Speaker
Anyways, but he also had a Twitter where he was doing these like, in a humorous way, all these like season eight of TNG plot ideas. So you might want to go check that out and read them because some of them are pretty funny. I can't recall one specific one off the top of my head.
00:47:58
Speaker
But there's another Twitter worth following called Reicher Googling. I don't know if you've ever encountered that one. Oh, god, no. Reicher Googling is one of my favorite. And then there's Picard Management Tips. So if you're looking for that inspirational workplace kind of tip, you can go to the Picard Management Tips Twitter and tune into those as well. That's funny. That's funny.
00:48:26
Speaker
Alright, are we at the ratings? Oh no, you haven't done the books. Is there anything to say? I don't know. Does Chapman have anything to say about this episode? I don't know. That's a good question. Let me see. Oh wow, he jumps from the imaginary friend to the inner light. Is the inner light next? Is it?
00:48:46
Speaker
No, he jumps right to it. Let me see. Extraordinary. Let's see what it says. TNG season, season five episodes. I don't think the interlight is next. It's no. After this comes in, he doesn't seem to write about you the next phase. Oh, maybe he had a crush on you just like I did. He couldn't find anything, anything to say, or he had a bad week with his mother.
00:49:14
Speaker
Let me see if there is an appendix where he does go back and cover aliens that he missed in previous issues, which I discovered. Oh, well, he would just have an opinion on the Borg. Probably not. Oh, that's just doing aliens generically. That's true. I don't know. I don't see anything about you.
00:49:38
Speaker
Yeah, I know. He goes right from Isabella to the Catassians, yeah. So no, no, no comment on Hugh. And, well, the only other thing I have here is, again, Sonoa Fantasqui, which would do, they would analyze a whole season at a glance, and they did some of the best Star Trek analysis of the time. And they actually give it three stars.
00:50:07
Speaker
And they say, a triumph in giving the so-called enemy a human face. Unfortunately, the Borg don't need a human face. This story would have worked with any villain. Making it the Borg was a mistake, emasculating
00:50:26
Speaker
emasculating the single greatest antagonist ever created for Star Trek. It's an astoundingly well-written, exceptionally well-performed installment with a strong message that was, in effect, ill-conceived.
00:50:40
Speaker
That pretty much sums up what I say. Interesting. One of the Memory Alpha points, you know, sometimes they tell you how the reception was, right? Jerry Taylor, who provided an uncredited polish on the script, commented that this episode meant that we can never treat the Borg the same way again. Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem. I mean, with first contact, we kind of went back
00:51:08
Speaker
to just purely evil board. But of course there was the innovation of the board queen. But moving on, let's face it, we see the board only, if I'm not mistaken, one more time, which is the two-parter with Lore, where they team up with Lore, and they're very underwhelming there as well because of the hue
00:51:32
Speaker
contamination so it just seemed like they were such an unstoppable force of nature and it was just something just lingering you know at the edge of space waiting to to possibly destroy everything that we knew on Star Trek you know and
00:51:55
Speaker
It just fell apart with this episode. I mean, suddenly they tried to make the Borg into a teddy bear and I just remembered at the time hating the episode and today I appreciate the episode for its thematic content and I do admire the acting.
00:52:18
Speaker
but i still hate what it did to the borg i think it's worth to to go off of just i i know what you're saying like i see this i see all the issues that you're having with the neck i think i agree mostly with with what you're saying from a rational standpoint but there is the there is the pull of like
00:52:36
Speaker
you know, this sort of like how you said earlier when we were talking about this, you're really conflicted about this episode because there are such awesome performances and also like it's very impactful, like it really gets you. Like Jonathan Del Arco, he says, all I had to go on as an actor was one of the best scripts I'd ever read. It was so, you read it, you read the script and it comes to life. I heard the voice in my head, it holds up. So like he was moved by this performance and you could see why. Like there's an incredible transformation
00:53:05
Speaker
Occurring even if you don't agree with it. You know I mean like for this character, and I think as an actor. That's very exciting and then Michael pillar goes is quoted here as saying there were some people who really felt that I board betrayed the vision of the board because it humanized them more than they wanted to see and
00:53:27
Speaker
But I just think every time you can understand your enemy, those stories have a huge impact. And I did think about this during this show, during this episode. I thought about how it was in a very, kind of like in the same vein, not exactly a parallel, but to Ender's Game, which is one of my favorite books. And that goes way further.
00:53:51
Speaker
Yeah, but like the the name the title, you know enders game comes from the idea of an endgame, right? You know and this was this this episode presents us with an endgame scenario and the Federation chose not to act and there's I think what's great is that like That they by choosing not to act the consequences are immense so I think this episode actually becomes important later on also because this is the moment when for better or worse Picard like
00:54:20
Speaker
So many billions more die now because they didn't infect the Borg with this debilitating program. So it's a curious episode in many ways, I think.
00:54:34
Speaker
Right, that's what I was going to say is that really, you know, Picard makes a decision that for, you know, and I feel in another episode, they would have had the Starfleet involved. I mean, for the purposes of this episode, they didn't. But let's face it, if they had encountered the Borg and had brought a Borg aboard the ship,
00:54:57
Speaker
They Starfleet would have like known about it and they would have said bring this puppy to earth right now Let us dissect it. Let us I mean they were gonna do it with fucking data, you know a couple see the larger You're gonna tell me the larger drama
00:55:13
Speaker
Yeah, there was a larger drama at play, and one wonders why it wasn't Starfleet looped in, at least not to the viewer, you know, at least not to the reader, viewer, whatever, you know, the audience. You're right, there's no evidence that they even like- There is none, there's none at all. And there's no, it's just unimaginable that they would have done it. And to be honest,
00:55:43
Speaker
When you look at first contact and they get the orders to patrol the neutral zone,
00:55:55
Speaker
You can almost think, well, they're referencing this episode because Picard fucked it up. We had a chance to go up to the board and he didn't push the button. And I think from an outsider point of view, they would have said, well, maybe he's still somehow under board control. The decision made to put you back out there
00:56:25
Speaker
Like that. Just doesn't really make sense in the big picture. I think the drama works.
00:56:34
Speaker
self-contained, but when you put it back into the big picture, none of it makes sense. I don't think Starfleet would have allowed Picard to have made a decision like that, and I'm not totally convinced Picard would even have made, I don't think we saw the trippy card. I don't think we saw the trippy card in this episode. Well, I said the full Picard. You said the full Picard, but I'm saying, I don't think we saw the trippy card.
00:57:01
Speaker
This episode I I don't see really see him being swayed that much I mean it is it is a very you know powerful scene when he he kind of steps back into locutus and he's drilling the Borg and he sees that the Borg is is you know is Basically ineffective and as a Borg anymore as a child I guess nonetheless
00:57:31
Speaker
You know, I don't know I just
00:57:35
Speaker
The drama works, but it doesn't. I'm very conflicted with this episode. I don't, it's well acted, but I just, I don't know. I think I, I admire them trying to go for, you know, trying to go for this, but I don't, I don't, for me it doesn't, ultimately it doesn't work. I think the inherent value of having the Borg as a
00:58:01
Speaker
as a villain, as just an irredeemable villain is something that is too great to pass up because you really can't do that with Klingons, you can't do that with Cardassians. You can do it with the Borg as they were presented up to now. I think this is a game changer for the Borg.
00:58:22
Speaker
They are no longer just this ominous threat. They're not the boogeymen anymore. Now they've been humanized. And once you humanize one, you can obviously imagine others being humanized. And I think you've lost something. And at the end of the day, this is an action adventure.
00:58:44
Speaker
show i mean you need you have good guys and you have bad guys and you just lost the best bad guy you ever had so i i'm ready for my rating okay i'm ready to i think i see what you're saying i just want to present one last little argument point out yes star trek as a show technically speaking you're 100 right is an action adventure show and it's so much better when you have like
00:59:09
Speaker
this immense conflict and drama and like these no-win scenarios, so to speak. But I won't fault, I won't fault the writers for trying to portray what the lives of these people might actually be like, what the Federation, what the actual Federation that is being depicted might actually be like in genuine. And I think that's the attempt that was made. I unfortunately don't think it was 100% successful either. So it's not gonna be a,
00:59:37
Speaker
a perfect uh episode but i do like this episode a lot obviously as always i i attach great sentimental value to it and uh but yeah that's it so i've justified my rating which is lower than when i started this episode i am going to give this episode a 7.5 it was originally going to get an 8.5 so you knocked me down a little bit doctor so 7.5 for
01:00:06
Speaker
eyeborg but honorable mentions to every one because the performance was were so good it was hard to like not give it a 10. Right and and you know again I'm very I'm very conflicted and I just want to explain my rating before I give it which is you know I because I do give a lot of thought of these ratings and I know for a while you wanted to go to just a thumbs up thumbs down kind of thing and I said no because there's there's too much nuance
01:00:36
Speaker
And I think this is one of those... You made this bed now lie in it. Right. And well, this is why I like the number system because, you know, it's not just... There's a lot of nuance to the ratings I feel. And I think if I say it's a five, then it's just an average, good episode. So I can't give it a five.
01:01:03
Speaker
because I really hate parts of this episode. I really, really hate it. Wow. So I have to go under a five, but...
01:01:14
Speaker
You know, again, the acting is very good in this episode. And it is a well-written episode. I just wish they hadn't used the board. So I have to give it a 4.5. It can't reach the 5. It's as close as I can get to a 5, but it's a 4.5.
01:01:34
Speaker
Just on principle because I just don't like what they did to the Borg I really don't and there's things that don't make sense I don't know why I don't know how you can make a decision You know the Borg every time they've been introduced. It's just a mega it's of mega importance to everything in the universe and You have this episode and it's just kind of self-contained and they're there for a while
01:01:58
Speaker
you know it's not like it happens over it's not like it's like it's a quick episode they're there for a couple of days it looks like well yeah the drone the second drone ship was like 20 hours away when they detected right are you trying to tell me that when picardas making logs captain's log Starfleet is not like they watch they've got a vork
01:02:27
Speaker
Since we talked about this and we know that there's no robots reading the captain's logs, right? Like who's the person at Starfleet that reads the Enterprise?
01:02:36
Speaker
Captain's Logs like is it Admiral Nechayef? Does she get a briefing every every day like at the end of the day? Does she get like an email that says you're in charge of like ten ships and here are all the captain's logs Hey Picard says that they have a Borg
01:02:54
Speaker
over in sector 12 do you know about this do you can you see her spitting her wine out she's like i should have listened to these a week ago like what the fuck is going on and then she calls and she's like pick hard why didn't you tell me about the board i i put it in my log i thought you'd listen to them every night nachay if
01:03:14
Speaker
Where is you now? I let him go. You did what? If I didn't like you so much, Picard. Is it really like that? Is it like that? Yes, that's exactly how it is. It's exactly how it is. Alright, so I say that you gave... It's a four.
01:03:36
Speaker
I, you know what, I'm pleased that you got that high. I really thought you were gonna, based on my remembrances of, uh... That was gonna give it a one? Yeah, I thought it was gonna be in the realm of one or two, so you exceeded my, my, um, expectations. So I'm actually not too, as far as our, you know, relativistically speaking, as far as our feelings go, I feel like we're not too far off here.
01:04:00
Speaker
And I would say that that's nice because it actually averages the episode out to a 5.5 with when we combine our two Ratings and that makes it a pretty that I feel good about that
01:04:14
Speaker
All right, you look for gold depending on Yeah Hey, if Gary was here, it'd be a much higher higher average rating because I'm sure this episode at 10 a hundred percent sure I'm gonna ask him we're gonna find out I'll report next time I see you but I would have liked to I really would have liked to have known I really would like to know what the others think of this I
01:04:40
Speaker
Because, you know, we've been living with this episode for a long time. But I don't know what other people think of this. I really don't.
01:04:49
Speaker
Well, there's definitely room to find out. I do make little log notes here to try to bring things up on the future episodes. So there are some really big episodes coming up that I feel like group discussions would be quite apt for. So we'll try to line those up and then maybe return to these. And maybe season five, at the end of season five, we'll have our first largest summit.
01:05:17
Speaker
Yeah, the season recap yeah, it's gonna be fun. I think how many more do we have left to go not much where this is episode 22 so What is that four more episodes to go in the season? Holy cow only four Yeah, aren't there 26 episodes in this season. Let's take a look so what's left? Here, I'll tell you right now
01:05:43
Speaker
I mean, the inner light is one of them. Yes. Season five. There's one called the next phase, which I don't know what that is.
01:05:59
Speaker
Don't remember that one either. I'm very curious to watch it now. I'm all caught up on my I'm not ahead anymore There's the next phase and there's the inner light and then times arrow and that's it. Holy cow There's only three more episodes left. So there's only three episodes left Yep. Wow, I'm shocked We're getting through it
01:06:24
Speaker
wow we're almost getting through it we're almost oh no we're closer to the end now than we are to the beginning yeah dr season six and seven or next and that's it as far as star trek the next generation is concerned dr dr as far as star trek the next generation is concerned
01:06:43
Speaker
you and i have memories longer than the road that stretches on ahead all right on that note live long and prosper and we'll see you next time
01:07:45
Speaker
Thank you.