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Star Trek Discovery Discussion: Project Daedalus
51 Plays1 year ago
Things are coming to a head as we delve deeper into the mysteries driving season 2 of Star Trek Discovery. Join our Discussion and let us know what you think of this exciting episode of Star Trek Discovery.
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Transcript
Introduction to Star Trek Discovery Discussion
00:00:02
Speaker
And we are back moments after our discussion of light and shadows to come to you once again on Starfleet, where we have a casual and informal conversation about Star Trek. Today we're focused on Star Trek Discovery's latest episode, which just aired on Thursday night, called If Memory Serves. And Fatherie, as promised, you get to give the
00:00:26
Speaker
So go for it. I'm pulling my notes up now. If you want to, the vamp for a little bit and then I'll jump into that summary. Since this is an isolated video, I want to thank you gentlemen again for joining me. We're joined here by PJ and Sean, respectively PJ's channel. PJ, I'll ask you offline, but I was following a different PJ, I think, and thought it was you, until you told me about PJ's channel. And then I was like, oh. On Twitter or on YouTube?
Clarification on PJ's YouTube Channel
00:00:55
Speaker
On YouTube.
00:01:00
Speaker
There's a few channels called PJ's channel so That was a mistake on my part but the real the true link will be in the description below
00:01:18
Speaker
And then Fathery from TextTrack. Howdy Howdy. And of course Sean from Trek on the Tube, who we've established AKA as Daddy on the Tube. So hello, Daddy. All right, so are you ready yet, Fathery? Did I wax enough there?
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, that was good. So all right.
Connection to 'The Cage' and Timeline Debate
00:01:45
Speaker
I'll just go ahead and jump into the summary of Star Trek Discovery Season 2 Episode 8, I believe, right? If memory serves. If memory serves, it is Episode 8. It's an opportunity there.
00:02:04
Speaker
So the episode opens with a really awesome recap of Star Trek, the original series, The Cage. And for all the people out there who for a long time were saying that Star Trek Discovery is contractually not allowed to be in the same timeline as the previous Star Trek shows. So it turns out that this is like a PG-13
00:02:32
Speaker
YouTube channel, so I can't say that my truth. You can drop one, you're allowed to drop one, I think one or two F-bombs, and then you can say the B-word as much as you want. Well, they, yeah, all those people, all those dishonest assholes on the internet can go fuck themselves. Because Star Trek Discovery is totally in the same frickin', I'll say frickin' like Tilly, the same frickin' timeline as the age and the menagerie as established in the opening of this episode,
00:03:02
Speaker
But they basically explained to us that, in case you missed those episodes, they explained to us that Captain Pike and Spock and number one the Enterprise crew had visited this world of Talos IV where they beamed down and they met this beautiful woman, Vina, who turns out the prisoner of the Talosians, these
00:03:24
Speaker
big brain, butt head looking aliens that wear metal gowns with like these cool little medallion bling necklaces they got on.
00:03:34
Speaker
And they attempt to take Captain Pike as a prisoner to be the Adam to Vina's Eve and repopulate their planet with a race of humans. They offer him a life in their menagerie where he would be able to live out any fantasy they could telepathically create for him. However, he says a cage is no place for him.
Recap of Talos IV Visit and Encounter with the Talosians
00:03:57
Speaker
He wants to leave the planet. He offers to take Vina with him, but she is actually
00:04:02
Speaker
the the the the
00:04:20
Speaker
Go, go, go. So then we have John, you can skip the summary, god damn it. Well, he's in the episode. No, he's not. Yeah, I know. Just kidding. Then we have section 31 back in the modern day of Star Trek Discovery, picking up where last episode left off. They're still hunting for Michael, Burnham, and Spock. The two siblings arrive at their destination of Talos IV, the planet that Spock visited previously on Star Trek on the cage.
00:04:50
Speaker
And they meet Veena there. She's still on the planet. She takes them down underground to meet the Talosians, and they promise to get all of Spock's marbles back in alignment for a price. They want to relive Burnham and Spock's childhood and explore their memories, because that's what Talosians do. And luckily for the audience, we also get to go on this telepathic journey and unearth some backstory on these characters.
00:05:19
Speaker
We get all these flashbacks. We see Spock as a child visited by the red angel on the night that Michael ran away from home. We learned that the angel did in fact reveal her location to Spock and that's how they were able to save her as a kid when she was running off through the forest. She was trying to escape her home to the Vulcan logic extremists that tried to blow her up at her school, like wouldn't attack her family.
Spock's Mind Scramble and Red Angel Vision
00:05:46
Speaker
We also see some stuff of Spock just a few months earlier, I guess, when he was serving on the Enterprise, the Red Angel returned to him and led him to this snowy ice world where Spock attempted to mind meld with the Red Angel because that's what Spock loves to do. He'll mind meld with anything weird and dangerous, you know,
00:06:07
Speaker
of Nomad, the Horda, the Red Angel. And this- He loves doing that shit. And this time it scrambles his mind. He loves it. Yeah, this mind meld does show to him a vision of the galaxy having all life wiped out of these high-tech weapons devastating planets, including Earth.
00:06:30
Speaker
So Spock checks himself into the psychiatric ward at starbase five that we knew about. And there he made his escape. He didn't actually kill anyone though. He just used the Vulcan neck pinch, but he escaped because he knew section 31 was coming to question him about the red burst after the red burst he predicted that he had been drawing after they actually happened at the beginning of season two. So that's when he went on the run.
00:06:58
Speaker
And we also see the pivotal moment in Burnham and Spock's past when their relationship took a turn for the worst of the moment that had been hinted at before when Burnham intentionally hurt Spock
Exploring Burnham and Spock's Childhood with Talosians
00:07:11
Speaker
so that he would stop following his big sister around when Burnham said to him that he has no place in her life, that he is a freak, he's this weird Vulcan half-breed, he can never understand what it is to be a human or to have human emotion and just devastated little kid Spock and he's been carrying this grudge against Michael Burnham ever since then.
00:07:36
Speaker
We also have a bunch of stuff happening on the ship. Back on the Discovery, we have Dr. Colbert is still getting used to being back amongst the living. He doesn't feel like his old self. In fact, he says he's not really feeling much at all, except this anger at Tyler, the man who killed him and is responsible for him having these feelings of being an incomplete person.
00:07:59
Speaker
So Colbert goes to the mess hall and starts a fight with Tyler. He also appears to break up with Stamets. Also on the ship, Pike is just chilling in his office and he gets this vision of his old flame, Bina. And she says that the Talosians are trying to reach out to him that they can briefly make contact across the stars and communicate with him. That Bertram and Spock are there. They need to talk to him. So Pike gets to talk to his
00:08:28
Speaker
is Enterprise Science Officer Spock. Spock says there is a major threat to all life and you need to come to Talos IV and pick us up because this is a big deal. We have to address it. So Pike calls us to Talos IV and section 31 is right behind them. They get there at the same time because they also want Spock
00:08:48
Speaker
They get in a transporter competition of trying to beam up Spock and Burnham. They both have a transporter lock. And Leyland tells Pike, if you don't release your transporter lock, we're going to rip these people apart atom by atom. So just back off and let me have them. So Pike appears to do so. And then we have Burnham and Spock appear on the Section 31 ship.
00:09:12
Speaker
Or do we? No, it's actually a Talosian illusion distracting them while the real Burnham and the real Spock pilot their shuttle back to the Discovery. And Pike has them on board.
Galactic Threat and Captain Pike's Involvement
00:09:25
Speaker
He welcomes Spock, who gives them a smile that we've only seen him do before when he's playing with a blue humming plant. So maybe Vulcan's just smile when they get to serve under Captain Pike, because he's that good of a captain.
00:09:37
Speaker
But Spock does tell him that, yeah, there's this massive threat to all life in the galaxy, that the Red Angel has unveiled to him. We get confirmation the Red Angel is a human, it's a female, we don't know anything else, but there is going to be this massive extinction level of it in the future. And so the discovery has to go rogue to investigate and pursue this mystery. And that's the end of the episode. Well done.
00:10:07
Speaker
Well done. My biggest thing about this episode, I'm still unpacking a lot of the information that came out of this. So I don't know how I'll feel about this later on. But the biggest thing that my biggest take away is that like, this concept of like, what if what we what if what Star Trek
00:10:31
Speaker
Like the, the, the story, like kind of like the question is like someone who was supposed to die is, is now alive. And that's Burton because human, whoever this human time traveler is, that is the red angel. We don't know this yet, but from their perspective, Burnham was supposed to die when she like left the Vulcan, you know, her home and she actually, so the angel, she, he, the angel comes back and, uh, convinced the Spock to stop that from happening. So.
00:11:01
Speaker
There was a established timeline from the perspective of wherever the angel comes from where Burnham died that no longer Happens and just revisiting some of the other things the the red angel changes an event in World War three that we know of Changes the course of Kaminar.
Impact of Timeline Changes by the Red Angel
00:11:17
Speaker
I can't see where it's all going but I'm really curious and it's like pretty exciting and it explains so many so many in my opinion and
00:11:25
Speaker
of the incongruities in Star Trek Discovery and helps me to kind of like be like okay I can like understand this because there's something there's definitely something wrong something's rotten in the state of the timelines and it's all gonna be corrected of course by TOS but what
00:11:48
Speaker
I'm not sure if they're going to do like a big timeline alteration story. In fact, I kind of don't want them to do that because we just did that with the Kelvin movies. But just the actual content of this episode, I loved it. This is my favorite episode of Star Trek Discovery.
00:12:03
Speaker
this is the show becoming the show i hoped it would be when they first announced they were doing this prequel series to the original series set 10 years before i wanted to see things like oh yeah we can revisit all this tos stuff that they haven't touched on since the 60s things like talos for uh this this is pretty much the show i i hoped for i like filling in the gaps
00:12:26
Speaker
Yeah, I still love Pike. He's still like one of the greatest captains we've had. I think after the season of Discovery, he might become my second favorite captain with the Emissary, of course, being number one. I'm the big DS9 fan. Sounds good.
00:12:40
Speaker
Yeah, I love this version of Pike, which is the continuation of the original series, Pike. The Cage Pike is delightful because in the Kelvin timeline, we don't get Vina, we don't get Talos. None of that happens to Pike and he dies.
00:12:56
Speaker
Like he just kind of like, you know, like, so, so he gets a much worse ending because he just gets like shot up by con. And then I guess like Pike, I'm sorry, I guess Spock, like mind melds with them and takes his katra. But the discovery Pike, we know the end of his story is he gets to live with with Vina on Talos for and
00:13:24
Speaker
this just been the rest of his existence with this beautiful woman. This episode gave me the most feels because of that, like because of the connection to the cage and the menagerie.
00:13:39
Speaker
And we also finally get to see Ethan Peck as Spock. We've been waiting all season for it. And I didn't mind waiting for Spock because I wasn't sure if I was going to take to Ethan Peck. But this episode really sold me on him. And they're obviously doing like a little bit different version of Spock. The beard is kind of like a visual reminder that this isn't quite the Spock of the original series. This is a guy who's going to become that.
00:14:06
Speaker
But I can see myself liking this take on Spock more than Zachary Quinto. And it's not really fair to make that comparison, but I'm definitely on board with Ethan Peck. Me too, 100%. He's a lot less different than I thought he was going to be. I mean, he embodies the role perfectly. You can imagine that this is Spock in this particular situation, and he
00:14:30
Speaker
And even though he's kind of like all over the place in the last episode, when he finally starts debating with doing that back and forth between him and Michael, that's classic Spock. The way they wrote the Spock dialogue, it felt like how they wrote for Spock in the 60s. Yeah.
00:14:51
Speaker
There's a certain elegance to how he speaks and everything is so direct. And it's almost poetic in just how direct his language is chosen. He's so to the point. And the way that he can
00:15:09
Speaker
Talk about some of the things like the little speech he gives to Burnham about how his foundations have just been shattered. He's been betrayed by time and logic and emotion and now he has nothing to build a foundation upon or all that little snippy stuff he tells Burnham about. I wrote that quote down, I have nothing to build upon but build I must, which is such a Spock thing. I
Visual and Narrative Continuity in Star Trek
00:15:34
Speaker
know, it sounds like the original series. Right, it was very cool.
00:15:37
Speaker
Like a lot of the things he would say to her that was kind of throwing shade reminded me of how Spock would talk to Dr. McCoy. When he's like, it was foolish to idolize you and don't try to psychoanalyze me greater minds than years have tried and failed. And just like the way that he's kind of like an asshole with those insults, that was how Spock behaved on the original series. I like when Burnham says, what did she say?
00:16:04
Speaker
Am I a fool to be offended? And he goes, agreed. Yeah. He says very, it was actually pretty funny. I laughed at some, I didn't expect to laugh at Spock, but I did like one or two times. But she gets some back when she says, when he says, do you have any, what does it, do you have any relevant questions? Yeah, relevant questions in your arsenal. And she says, yeah, do you actually think the beard is working?
00:16:31
Speaker
I like that. I love that. I mean, ha! Ha! Ha ha! Got him. That's funny. I'm going to skip ahead, but there's a detail that I noticed in the rewatch that... Oh, sorry. I know you want to talk, but I have to just... I'm just going to get this out of the way.
00:16:53
Speaker
looks like there's a detail that i noticed in the rewatch when when the discovery is speeding towards talos and and it's being chased by the um the section 31 ship at warp uh both of them were tilted at the angle that you have in the original series in the opening credits like if you notice the enterprise comes at you kind of like at this angle and like that's how they were both tilted in that scene and i really love just
00:17:19
Speaker
Whoever decided to do that, it gave me feels because I was like, hey, that feels like that era. Maybe ships at those speeds tilt naturally into this posture or whatever, so it was cool. It also felt like a scene from Into Darkness where the Section 31 ship is chasing. It did remind me of that scene as well. It looked a lot like that. Yeah.
00:17:44
Speaker
But those ships weren't tilted. They were going straight. JJ should have tilted his ships. It's true. Anyways, go on. Sorry. I was just going to say, it looks like Sean might be disagreeing with all that enthusiasm. I know. I feel like the black sheep here. I'm impressed by Ethan Pick's performance, just the acting of it. But I'm not.
00:18:10
Speaker
I'm not sold on Spock yet, because if no one had told me it was Spock, I wouldn't know it was Spock. I mean, I couldn't have guessed it. You guys say he's written like Spock. I say he's not written like Spock, he's just written like a Vulcan. Because T'Pol's written the same way, T'Pol's written the same way. Every time there's a Vulcan on screen, they're the same thing. They've got this condescending asshole-ness to them.
00:18:33
Speaker
But I think it was in the original series. That's the precedent for Vulcans to be written like that later. I know, I do agree. It's just that this could be any Vulcan for me at this point. It doesn't necessarily need to be like, I know it's Spock because they told me, but I wouldn't, I would never like Chris Pine. The moment he's on screen in the Calvin timeline, even if you don't, even if no one said it was Kirk, you'd know it was Kirk.
00:19:00
Speaker
but this is different. I don't feel this spot so much. I just, I can't wait to see him in the blue with no beard and standing next to Pike saying something like, it is time for us to get back to the enterprise. That's something like. I think there's a bridge that needs to be created from the cage, even though the cage was intended as a pilot and not necessarily like meant to be part of, you know, the whatever cannon or whatever, but like,
00:19:26
Speaker
you know, I think there needs to be a bridge between the cage and TOS, right? And I think that, like, to me, Ethan Peck, that is what I'm seeing. Like, I'm seeing, like, this, like, troubled Vulcan who's, like, trying really hard to be a Vulcan, and he's like an uber-asshole Vulcan. But then at the same time, he
00:19:47
Speaker
can't help but smile when he sees Pike who he has immense affection for. And we know this because in the cage you work so hard to get him back to Talos, right? Sorry, in the menagerie. Thank you. Yeah. I agree with all of that. I think Spock is coming across. I think Spock is coming across as especially prickly in this episode just because
Spock and Burnham's Complex Relationship
00:20:11
Speaker
He is talking to Michael Burnham, and they have that troubled relationship. Because when he gets on the bridge and starts talking to Pike, he sounds like a regular aspect. I suppose that's because he's so out of context for the moment. He's such a non-spock kind of situation, and he's, I don't know, it's different. Ethan Beck's voice is clearly deeper as well.
00:20:40
Speaker
I can hear it. I don't- Yeah, but I feel like it's not fair to, so here's how I look at it. Like, you know, Leonard Nimoy is the defense, how like many people see Spock, right? But the character should be allowed to live on, right? Like I think that the characters are important enough that like you can have other actors portray him. And you know, not exactly, like I don't think he should do an impression of Leonard Nimoy,
00:21:09
Speaker
But I think he's bringing something of his own to it. And I think it's fitting for this gray area where we don't know
00:21:17
Speaker
what Spock was doing. And it'll transition right into Leonard Nimoy, and then we have the Leonard Nimoy Spock that we all know. That comes down to why you enjoy Solo so much, because you don't care if someone does their own take on a character, whereas I disagree. I think that if you take on the role of a character that already existed, part of that acting job is to act like the other actor did.
00:21:40
Speaker
I like that you brought... That to me is... You brought our unpublished... I like that you brought our unpublished solo. To the mix. To me, you need to embody the character but you need to also embody the actor that played the character because they're the ones that originally like defined how the character was and you need to respect that. I agree that you can add story elements etc but I mean
00:22:09
Speaker
But you don't want to impersonate someone else's performance. You don't want Chris Pine to try to do the Shatner voice when he's playing Kirk. No, but you'll notice that he is very, very Shatner when he's like... Chris Pine is the William Shatner of today. He's so cool.
00:22:28
Speaker
right like so cool one word is that so cool one word is that hashtag so cool when when when he's all like full of posts mr sue you can you can hear the captain cook
00:22:43
Speaker
because it reminds you of William Shatner without necessarily being like a parody of William Shatner. Right. There's no doubt, there's no doubt that like those, all of those actors, the original series actors, they like, they, they defined and like, to me, it's like, you know, I like, I definitely agree with you, Sean, because like, I think that like, personally, on a very personal level, like, there should be no prequels. I think
00:23:09
Speaker
keep going right like you know this about me i've said this before but that being said like giving you like that's why i love the books because you get
00:23:19
Speaker
and Leonard Nimoy playing, like, you know, when you have a story set in the past of TOS, if it's in a book, you get to imagine your favorite actors. So, like, I think, but, like, taking that personal feeling aside and just looking at it from a character perspective, I'm very intrigued by what Ethan Peck is doing, and I'm very interested in seeing where he's gonna take this character. It's not perfect, but it can't be, you know what I mean? But I'm very intrigued to see what he does with Spock, because I'm enjoying his take on Spock.
00:23:49
Speaker
I try to counterbalance what you guys are saying because you're all very positive. In all honesty, I think that none of us can actually truly judge Ethan Peck's spark for the moment. Right. Because we haven't actually seen Ethan Peck's spark. We've just seen like some crazy dude. Well, I like him so far. Yeah, I like him so. First impressions are good, in my opinion. What do you say in first impressions, Sean, of Ethan Peck?
00:24:18
Speaker
I don't know. I think he acts well as like the crazy guy or the Vulcan, right? He's a ride as the Vulcan, but he's not Spock for the moment. Not to me anyway. Like mind melding with the red angel. That didn't seem Spock-ish to you. Yeah, but then, okay. But like... It doesn't take a genius to say, hey, I've got Spock in my episode. I'm going to make him mind meld with someone.
00:24:47
Speaker
I mean, my thoughts, do your thoughts, my mind, do your mind, whatever, like, whatever it is, like, it's... It's easy, that. They outuse a Vulcan line, I outweigh the many, many outweigh the needs of the few. Yeah, Burnham basically... Last season, they started four or five times. Yeah, that's become the, that's become the, this is Sparta of Star Trek. Yeah, I like them using that all the time. But that's...
00:25:13
Speaker
The logic outside of Star Trek like are you guys watching that show the what is it omens or something like that on Netflix? I'm not sure but like anyways, there's a class on ethics in in there and like he talks about that concept They talk about that concept and I can't I'm sorry I'm not like educated enough to like give you guys the exact like, you know You know source reference on that so we'll have to look it up or audience time in in the comments below but like that is like a huge
00:25:43
Speaker
important to remember is that despite Vulcans being like the magicians, the master logicians in Star Trek, that logic is a concept that humans came up with independently of Vulcans. Logic existed in human philosophy before we ever had first contact with the Vulcans. So it's not that humans are incapable of logic and in some ways humans
00:26:06
Speaker
In some way, humans choose not to be ruled by logic, which actually Vulcans, I think, in the original series were designed to show that if you go too extreme in one direction, it can also be bad. So bringing it back to balance, you know what I mean? So I see that presented a lot in Star Trek. What did you guys think of the Talosians? Love.
00:26:32
Speaker
Love, love, love. I love the updates and solutions. I was just happy that they weren't so radically redesigned. I would have done two things different, and this is all I would have changed from how Discovery did it, is I would have gotten rid of that bridge that comes up from their nose into their forehead. I just would have flattened that down so that they had a more human-looking face below the forehead.
00:26:56
Speaker
And on the back of the head, I would have kept the little butt cheek things that they have in the cage, just as like a little end joke to the fans who have watched that episode. Did we even see the back of their head in this episode though? I don't think we ever saw it. Did we? Okay. You know what's frustrating about the fact that they show the cage?
00:27:16
Speaker
and they show what it looked like then, and then the way the Talosians looked in the cage, and they just mess with it.
Updating Classic Alien Designs
00:27:25
Speaker
Isn't there just one time where they could take a classic alien and just do exactly what they did when it worked back then? They did that with the Vulcans, they haven't changed anything. Yeah, but they're the only ones.
00:27:39
Speaker
What do they do? Why is the Talosians speaking all like a demon and stuff? Why is he sounding like the Andorian? I don't know. Why do the Andorians have antennae that move on Enterprise and then on the original series they look quite different? Oh, no, no. Enterprise improved on that. I agree.
00:28:01
Speaker
Enterprise taught the original series design and they made it modern, which is very, very different from what Discovery did to the Andorians.
00:28:13
Speaker
where they change the genetic makeup of the Korean race. I thought you liked it. I thought you liked it. I don't mind them. They give these new antennae. What they did to the Klingons is ridiculous. What they're doing to the Talosians is, I don't know. I don't know why they do this. This episode specifically is amazing, the way it ties into the story. And it adds so much depth to Vena, to Pike, to Spock and Burnham. It's great on all of those levels, but just
00:28:42
Speaker
Changing, visually, the Talosians is ridiculous. My argument is the same for the flowers, by the way. I get that you want to make them look pretty, but they were very, very different. Were they?
00:28:54
Speaker
The way that I look at it is, and I think that this episode kind of like illustrates that by showing the footage from the original series and the cage and the pilot in that like beautifully kind of stylized opening. They gave it a comic book kind of feel to it, you know, or whatever is that I think that like in some ways it's a proclamation that says like show like a show
00:29:24
Speaker
2019, possibly, oh my, to a show made in 1968 or 60, you know, 67, or what was it? What was it? Rogue One disproves that.
00:29:39
Speaker
Yeah, but imagine the effort and then imagine the effort. Wait, but also on top of that, just imagine for a second trends change and things like that. Again, this show should have been set in the future. It would have alleviated a lot of this problem. But let's look at it from this context.
00:30:03
Speaker
How can you expect like artists, like genuine artists, like you're going to hire the best people, you know, who are like artists to like completely acquiesce to like designs that have already been done, you know, like on TNG. Okay. Can I just say something here? Yep. But on TNG we see the scene where Mal is trying to contemplate what she's going to be. They show an Andorian that looks completely different from like the original series Andorian.
00:30:28
Speaker
And I would erase that scene from the figure episode because I find that fucking offensive. It's terrible. The Phil Mandorians, the Phil Mandorians in Star Trek 4 are also different. Like the Tellarites keep going through evolution. You can have variations on this, please. Excusing the mistakes of the story by mistakes of the past.
00:30:46
Speaker
it's not because it's not necessarily a mistake it's like kind of like acknowledging that like hey like maybe this maybe the thing that we're wrong about is that like visual continuity matters like i think story continuity is different from visual and maybe the thing maybe but maybe that's the thing that we're wrong about maybe star trek has never been like has never cared about it
00:31:11
Speaker
I'm sorry, Star Trek Enterprise and Deep Space Nine all tied the Klingon visuals into one huge storyline. And essentially it blended the visual continuity with the story continuity. It made it all. It made it all. To me, Enterprise is the first time
00:31:31
Speaker
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, father. Sorry. You have worth saying that we don't discuss it without ciders and Bashir and O'Brien seem to have no idea that they were ever smooth headed Klingons ever existed. Like that doesn't quite make a lot of sense. You would think that they Starfleet would be aware of what happened in Enterprise, but
00:31:51
Speaker
Yeah, but you know what, in an episode of DS9, which is like the best episode of DS9, trials and tribulations. Yeah, I love it. That acknowledgement of the difference between designs where Odo asks and Worf responds, that's pure jokery.
00:32:08
Speaker
Yes. That's Tom Foolery. That means nothing. It's just a way of waking to fans and saying, listen, we acknowledge the difference. Don't worry about it. Then Enterprise just went ahead later on and decided to try to explain that. They did it actually in a very interesting way. I find it also. That should continue within the continuity.
00:32:35
Speaker
of discovery but you know they're not really going to go. If visual continuity doesn't count in Star Trek then nothing counts. Then like if visual continuity doesn't count then why do we even care about the tech that they use? Why do we even care about any of the science that they establish? Like none of it matters because part of Star Trek is the visual
00:32:56
Speaker
consistency. What made Star Trek such an amazing show is not like yes it's the stories but it was like the amazement of seeing the ship talking to the original series the amazement of seeing the ship and everyone still talks about how the original series ship is like the best design ever. Apparently friggin someone like the the US Navy based some of their like some of the command centers or bridges or whatever it was on the original series bridge
00:33:22
Speaker
So I mean, you can't just disregard any of that. We all believe, I think we all believe that there is no alternate license mandatory 25% rule because how would you even quantify that for one thing? That's just false. And that all of this is creative, right? So all of these decisions are created. I think that the incongruities in Star Trek Discovery stand out so much that there's a reason for them. And I'm just willing,
00:33:50
Speaker
You feel convinced by that, but it's not. I don't do any timeline, like drastic timeline, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Even in this, your father's like, change it all, burn it to the ground. No, I want them to not change the timeline. I'm against, I'm saying just show me in the last episode of Discovery, just show me things looking more like TOS and just build an original series set.
00:34:17
Speaker
The timeline's already been changed. I feel like this episode hints at that because, again, from the perspective of wherever the Red Angel comes from, whatever, 500 years from the future, whatever it is, Burnham was supposed to die and that Red Angel changed that. Here's the big plot hole there because they established that this is the same timeline as the cage as we saw it in the original version.
00:34:42
Speaker
But if Michael Burnham had died and her not being around is the true timeline, so to speak, then the cage would not be the way it is. It would be a different timeline. You know what I mean? Also remember, this timeline has to exist. She can't die. This timeline has to... go ahead. Some people are theorizing that this is going to end where Michael Burnham has to
00:35:05
Speaker
somehow go back or has to be erased at that point. Like she really has to die back in the day and then all this bad stuff that leads to the annihilation of everybody in the galaxy doesn't happen and that's the only way is for her not to exist. I don't believe that. That would totally undo the entire
00:35:27
Speaker
I think her existence is what changes the Annihilation. It's because Spock says in this episode, whatever our actions, you and me depend on, because Spock is realizing like, wait, so this red angel came back and changed your death for a reason. And it has to do with not having that come to pass. So I burn him.
00:35:52
Speaker
Burnham is the reason why it won't happen. That's what we're going to eventually find out why. But I think that the timeline's changed. And I also like that Burnham says in one scene on the bridge later, she goes, sir, um, the red angel is altering events in our current. Whereas I love that because it's acknowledging that like, don't make such a big deal. Time's changing all the fucking time. There's time travelers unbeknownst to us going back and doing crazy shit. So time can just change. Like stop focusing on time.
00:36:23
Speaker
There is no time to argue about time. There is no time to argue about time. If they change the timeline though, then I would be so mad at all the writers, all the producers, everyone who worked on Star Trek Discovery because they have been telling us from the very beginning.
00:36:38
Speaker
This isn't the prime timeline. This is the same timeline as the next generation in DS9 in the original series. But the paradox could be resolved before you see all that happening, and it is. So in fact, it is true that this becomes the same timeline. But right now we're seeing it happening for the first time.
00:36:58
Speaker
from like a temporal mechanic perspective. Like we're witnessing it for the first time, but ultimately it does become a part of what we know as established events. I don't need a, go ahead. I love the fact that the Kelvin timeline like exists. I love that kind of excuse that the film is going to exist in a separate timeline and therefore you can have the events unfold in that way and it can be more action, Star Trek flavored action movies. I love that.
00:37:24
Speaker
But then I feel like it's kind of brought to us this excuse now or this budget theory craft, like plot device that everyone in the software community uses all the time now. Oh, well, now that we know the timelines exist, everything can be in a different timeline. No, shut up with that, right? It's the prime timeline and that's it, right?
00:37:44
Speaker
You can't make every season of every show a new timeline now because of this event or that event. The first contact and enterprise and this and God, it's all bullshit, right? I agree. I agree. 100%. It's just this is prime timeline. It's visually different because they chose to make it visually different. You can agree with it or not deal with it. It still is prime. Yeah, I don't like the visual changes.
00:38:11
Speaker
Too bad for me, right? But Sean, you agree with me? You don't want them to have a timeline divergence explanation just to let us know why they had holograms on Discovery? No. But even if they did that, then it would give me a reason to never watch Discovery ever again. That was the Discovery timeline shit. I don't need to watch that because it's like its own pocket universe.
00:38:33
Speaker
I'll just keep on watching. Well, that's how I feel about Enterprise ending on a holodeck. So, I mean, I feel like the same way. But then you misinterpret the finale of Enterprise. The finale of Enterprise does not establish that the entire show is a holodeck. It gives importance to the characters. Hang on. Because it shows how it will now be Riker.
00:38:52
Speaker
What it does to me is it establishes that whatever enterprise events really look like, what we could have been watching is politic fantasy, which could have had interpretations that didn't actually exist at the time. So for example, when enterprise
00:39:08
Speaker
you know does something that's not you know correct visually i can excuse it no right exactly things like that like i can excuse that because i'm like none of the episodes none of the episodes that come before the finale have anything to do with the hologram program that riker is running
00:39:28
Speaker
There's too many things that the holodeck, whoever programmed that holodeck, they wouldn't have known that the Romulans had the secret base on Romulus where they were piloting the drone ship. There's a bunch of things in the enterprise that no one would have known about.
00:39:45
Speaker
Who would have known about, like, to call out a person that... It's not a person that puts that together. Fatherly, I'll just remind you that the computer, the AI, or the enterprise, D, or E, whatever it was at the time, is actually putting that together from documents and historical records and visual records and things like that. So that's what's happening. The enterprise finale is good. I wish it was a person, but it's the computer. The enterprise finale gives importance to the characters, right?
00:40:13
Speaker
It gives importance to the characters. It gives importance to the NX01. It shows how much impact and how much influence they can still have on someone like Riker so many years later. Also, they got cancelled. So they had to find a way to make this thing. They couldn't give you a four-episode arc on the creation of the Federation where they were planning on doing seven seasons, not four. So what they managed to do was very good for what they were given, right?
00:40:40
Speaker
I hated Enterprise when it was on the air because of all this. I had similar reservations as I did with Discovery in Season 1. And I have to say that now that I'm watching Star Trek Enterprise years later, rewatching it, I enjoy it way more because I've put aside those personal attachments and emotions to what I expected.
Expanding the Star Trek Universe and Section 31's Role
00:41:03
Speaker
And unfortunately, now that the expanse exists, I'm like, well, we should have just had that shit. That should have been like Star Trek prequel show. And a price happens 100 years before. So there's time like things can change in 100 years, 10 years. Well, it's not even 10 years. Discovery has this flaw of being between the cage and the original series. So you can't really change things. Our phones used to be really big and then they became really small, but now they're really big again in the real world.
00:41:34
Speaker
So yeah, but like, I don't know. I think that talking about an earlier point about the universe seeming big or small, it's like up until now, we've only been focused on like, you know, other with the, and Deep Space Nine, most of Star Trek is focused on the enterprise, the enterprise crew, whatever they know, whatever's happening in their world. And I kind of love that Discovery just kind of has opened the universe up a little bit.
00:41:59
Speaker
Whereas like these things that we couldn't think about or didn't even imagine or don't accept even to some degree are happening. Like section 31 being a big part of like, you know, the story. Like this is something that we don't expect to be happening, but it is happening. And it's, and I think it's gonna all, I have a lot of faith to go with me on faith. I have a lot of faith in discovery, mainly because of season two, but I'm starting to like, I feel like, okay, I'm ready. I mean, I'm willing to like,
00:42:29
Speaker
outside my differences for the team where this ride is going to go. The problem is it's clear that Discovery didn't say, this is how the original series is supposed to look like. We're going to make it this much different and gradually tweak it so it looks like the original series. It's clear that what they've done is that we're going to do this, and now they have to course correct everything, which is very different. Yeah. I would say that that's fair.
00:42:55
Speaker
The Enterprise kind of had a bit of that, though, when they started course correcting things in season four, like like making making the Vulcans closer to a traditional Star Trek Vulcan type of idea. It works better than with 100 years instead of a decade.
00:43:12
Speaker
now counting the clock is counted we're in a fight for the future here guys eight years eight years before Kirk takes over the the enterprise and three years like after the cage well two years after the cage or whatever so
00:43:30
Speaker
Yeah. That face pump needs to be turned into a gift. I'm going to go. I'm going to go take a screenshot of that. And I'm going to get someone on Twitter. I'm going to use this screenshot.
Depiction of Shuttlecraft Capabilities
00:43:54
Speaker
So good for the record. I like I like this episode. I really do.
00:44:02
Speaker
What about the evil admiral scene with with in the like what do you guys what's that all about? That's bad moral con 2250. Why do we need four admirals like what was the one of each species it was one of each race one of each founding member that was so like on the nose though be like here's one of everything
00:44:26
Speaker
like i like the i like the teller right he was very clean cut like we've seen all of them look like space pirates until now on discovery this guy wasn't he had like he was bold he didn't have like a weird beard or anything i want to see it teller right without tusks though i do just let me know that they're out there yeah
00:44:45
Speaker
PG has been very quiet. I know he has stuff to say, but go on. Sorry. One more thing about the admirals is why do they not have the new uniforms that they were on the Enterprise? Starfleet HQ converted to that. Discovery doesn't care about that stuff. That's not important to them. They also went to Talos IV on a shuttle.
00:45:10
Speaker
And I feel like Telus 4 was very far away. Like the original series, they got the enterprise out there on 5G and Mission or whatever. I forgot. I had a critique on the... his...
00:45:22
Speaker
I thought that the shuttles, especially the long range shuttles, worked on a similar principle to a warp core with the bizzard ram scoops and like the bizzard collectors rather and like, you know, the intermixed chamber and an antimatter matter reaction. But it made it seem like in the last episode that they ran on plasma and that when you exhausted the plasma fuel, that you ran out of fuel. But yet how are you getting like these great, it is true, like then the same class shuttle is able to traverse these great distances at warp. So I'm like, what is it? Is it a warp?
00:45:52
Speaker
a mini warp engine or is it a mini plasma based engine? So I was a little confused. It comes into another problem later on where pikes are like, we need to spore jump to tell us for because why? Like you need to spore jump there because it's that far away. But then like, well, no, it's fucking burn them just went there like in a shuttle.
00:46:13
Speaker
They also wanted to beat Section 31 there. Right. That was part of that too, I think. They have Sonny from iRobot getting all mad on their vessel, shutting the spore drive down.
00:46:25
Speaker
Sorry guys, I get I get a tweet notifications whenever Patrick Stewart And so I just want to say that he has tweeted that medical cannabis is now legal in the UK But too often patient access is cruelly denied visit and your pain org to email your MP Urging them to act and our pain and our pain. So that was an activist moment about legalizing medical marijuana in the UK Thank you. So what do you?
00:46:55
Speaker
What do you think are the odds that Sir Patrick Stewart is high right now tweeting that?
00:47:04
Speaker
Not very high, I would reckon. He doesn't seem like... Oh, do you think he's... Oh, he might have arthritis or some stuff. Yeah, he uses it for arthritis. And he was very turned on by what he saw of the Star Trek Picard series, so maybe he was high when he was doing that. He's going to be high the entire show. That's why he's accepted it. That's why he accepted to come back, because he's high now.
00:47:29
Speaker
But I actually love, because just to clarify, though, jokes aside, you don't necessarily get high off of medical marijuana. There are CBD type strains that have been cultivated to handle things like pain, et cetera, without the psychotropic effects that are caused by THC. I would assume that's what Syphagic Stewart uses.
00:47:51
Speaker
Yes, I would assume that as well. But if you wanted to get high, I think it's cool also. And I would love to get high with Patrick Stewart just throwing it out there to the universe.
00:48:08
Speaker
Wow, that derailed our whole discussion. I got something to talk about. We mentioned the 25% rule. I guess all that stuff started with John Eves, the ship designer, who one time gave us a Text Trek shout out on the Text Trek Facebook page. That was cool. He said that he had to make the 1701 Connie that we see in Discovery.
00:48:38
Speaker
25% different and that that came from the legal department and then he later said like oh well I'm not the best person to ask all this type of stuff I don't really know what's going on and CBS did this thing where they said oh no we can we can use any version of the enterprise we own the rights to all of Star Trek so I think
00:48:55
Speaker
I think what the situation is is basically they they do for creative reasons choose to make everything 25% different but also for the the capital reasons of they want to be able yeah they want to make the merchandise look different and have like a different license that you have to you have to buy
Influence of Merchandise on Design Choices
00:49:15
Speaker
if you check out Kit Walski's interview with PJ isn't it uh Matt Matt Caddish is his name yeah
00:49:22
Speaker
They talk about that some in there and so I think that might have been part of the decision to change the Talosians just in case anyone wants to make a toy of a Talosian or a t-shirt of a Talosian or some piece of merchandise. They have to buy a new license to be able to do it. Little do they know they're going to sell less if they're not faithful to the original.
00:49:54
Speaker
They do all the ships and what have you, so now they have to do all the new Discovery ships. I have all the Enterprise ships. I have all the Discovery ships out there. Look at you. The detail that went into the Klingon stuff was perfect for merchandising. And if the Klingons would look a bit more traditional in that same kind of really cool 3D printed armor with fine detail to it, it would have enhanced what they were and not
00:50:11
Speaker
I would buy it.
00:50:24
Speaker
changed here appeared so different yeah i would i would not buy a t-shirt of the of the disco klingons though like no absolutely no yeah i would not but you would but you would buy uh like um a tng style klingon with that awesome like um discovery armor on him and i'm done and i think here's
00:50:43
Speaker
I also think here's where the actors actually like kind of like help to like with acceptance of these things. I would buy a Mary Chifo as Lorelle shirt because I just like her you know like that's the thing it's like I don't really like the idea.
00:51:01
Speaker
I don't really like the idea of how the Klingons are redesigned, but I do like Mary Chief. We're gonna see her again. Mary Chief, I said that Laurel will return in season two of Discovery. So I'm hoping when she shows up, she has a fleet of D7s. I would love there to be some smooth headed Klingons operating them. I was expecting them to bring the smooth Klingons in and be like, guys, you started a war, you did all this shenanigans, just get lost now.
00:51:27
Speaker
can you please can you please stop with this I like they established that the these claims that we've been seeing have like they from some sort of outskirts of the Empire Alex Kurtzman Alex Kurtzman confirmed that they won't be doing that
00:51:39
Speaker
They won't be introducing any of TOS style, anything. He said in an interview that they'll only be dealing with the Klingons that we saw in the first season. And they did redesign Lorelle. They smoothed out her makeup or whatever. But they didn't do anything to every other Klingon around her except just add hair to the already piled on makeup.
00:52:02
Speaker
It is. What they could show is a variety. Over time, they could actually show a wide variety of different looking ones. They don't have to show just the ones they designed in season one. In season five of Star Trek Discovery, they'll fix the Klingons. Yeah, yeah.
00:52:19
Speaker
Well, they could design their own Klingons from the get-go, make them look so radical, but just have Klingons from TNG, have Klingons from the original series as well. Do you know what they weren't legally allowed to do?
00:52:34
Speaker
Neville Page's Klingon designs for Into Darkness, and we only actually saw the one guy. But if you look at the various Klingon designs, they're the best looking updated Klingons I've seen so far. JJ Abrams specifically chose the one that looked completely hideous. He chose the worst one. Oh yeah, he chose the worst one. But if you see the other designs, you could actually see that as a proper update.
00:52:59
Speaker
But they couldn't do that discovery even if they wanted to. So I think that's part of the reason they might have gone more extreme with the design.
00:53:11
Speaker
Maybe. And Neville Page doesn't need to involve with both, right? Yes, he's involved with both, but legally, I don't think he can use what he used in the JJ version. He can just make it 20% different, and they can get away with it. Travel to Talos is prohibited by Starfleet, but they don't mention General Order 7 specifically. Does that meet your expectations, or would you like to have heard about General Order 7?
00:53:40
Speaker
I mean, the death penalty for going to Talos IV always seemed weirdly harsh. So I'm okay with them just not mentioning it. And if I'm not mistaken, there's a throwaway reference in TNG, isn't there, where there's colonists that are going to Talos IV or something like that?
00:54:03
Speaker
Which seems like that the writers didn't really like look into it that they just wanted to say something We're at like I'm told he's died by then they do this are gonna die Okay, where's that sorry?
00:54:17
Speaker
They needed Pike and Vina to repopulate their planet. They needed a race who could learn to operate their machines and take care of the planet. A labor force, yeah, exactly. They even tell Pike at the end of the cage, they tell him, you humans, you were our last hope for survival, but we see that you're too reckless to be caged and we have to set you free.
00:54:46
Speaker
That's right. I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminders. So yeah, so then TNG Talos 4 might be interesting because it's a human colony now. Let's say we're like... Okay, I'm looking that up now. Humory Alpha says in 2328, this talking about Talos 4,
00:55:04
Speaker
was the destination for passengers traveling to the Triskelion Orbital Station via commercial transport. I just mentioned the Triskel earlier. Sorry, go on. Ryan Adams, Wednesday Adams. It's like the Adams family. Lord Evans traveled on the SS Cogen, and Mike Eccles traveled on the SS Wisconsin. That was on a new coup de grรขme. That wasn't actually mentioned, but it was in the TNG episode. Oh, gotcha.
00:55:33
Speaker
there was just like on like a display somewhere that's the episode where the uh the mean lady kills the crystal lion entity that's right oh yeah that's right okay so you're saying it's just in the background that's the one with data's mom that's the one where data meets his mom
00:55:51
Speaker
Is there both like Data hanging out with a lady? And also because she's all like pretending to be the son's mom because Data channels her son. You're right. That's right. Yeah. No, this is the one where Data had his mom come on board the ship. And it turns out she was an Android also. Your thoughts on the Stamets, Culber, Tyler,
00:56:11
Speaker
Oh, I love when Colbert goes into the cafeteria or the mess hall and he walks up to the table and he just smacks that fucker like right out of, right across the room and, you know,
00:56:26
Speaker
So it was like, let them fight. And it was really good. I like how it ended. They kind of like embrace. And there's that understanding of like, what does Culber say? He's like, I don't even know who I am anymore. And who I am. And he's like, do you know who you're talking to?
Culber and Tyler's Identity Conflict
00:56:43
Speaker
Do you know who you're talking to, man? And then I thought they were going to make out. Anyway, that didn't happen.
00:56:47
Speaker
They looked like a real fight. It looked like a real brawl between two guys. And they had a bro moment at the end. It was cool.
00:56:58
Speaker
go off to section 31 with Tyler and be a character on the section 31 show. That would be so dark. That would be good. It would be so dark if like both. So Tyler's rejected by Burnham and by Pike because like, you know, he can't be with the cats and pikes. So he goes and hooks up with Culber and they like start a new relationship and poor Stamets is like super like depressed because he's like, well, I got my because Culber is still alive, but he doesn't love me anymore. Now he's with Tyler, the guy like that in the first place.
00:57:28
Speaker
I like the domestic exchange between them and their quarters. I'm having all the tales for that. I've done the impossible. I went down into hell and rescued you and now we should be happy together.
00:57:52
Speaker
Yeah, well the thing is is that what's cool about this is that it's actually a great like reason of an old archetype, right? Which is like the how like who was it that was trying to rescue? someone from Hades back in the Greek mythology and like he brings and the whole the whole thing is like the one thing you can't do back right and Then she looks back and then that's it. It's ruined It's like, you know her like she can't ever be alive as a mortal again. So I forget what the head is better. I
00:58:25
Speaker
Wasn't that Persephone? Persephone, thank you, yes. And then there's this like compromise where Persephone, thank you, I know my mythology is a little rusty there, but you filled it in, I think that's what it was, that was the Persephone story. So I do like that there's these like, me too, my old brain is feeble, it's not as good as when I was your age, guys.
00:58:46
Speaker
but uh um were you guys like pleased with the portrayal of vina and how the actress did vina and like the updates to vina and everything like that nope i i think the the new woman is the new actress uh what was her name um melissa george i think i think she's a gorgeous woman um but she didn't look that much like susan oliver and to be honest i i i i think susan oliver more embodied the uh like
00:59:16
Speaker
the ideal woman fantasy that Pike was having. Yeah. And the way they made her look
00:59:28
Speaker
like her trends, like when they reveal how she really looks, the original version was a lot better. It was so much prettier. Yeah, it was more gruesome. And the visual effect that they used back then of the, you know, that kind of fading effect was very well done. They did that. It was like multiple. It was like you went from.
00:59:49
Speaker
like correct posture to like you know blah you know whatever I noted that the sound design I thought was pretty awesome how they like mixed like the old sounds with like kind of updated them and they blended really beautifully and Sean you mentioned that like the new uh singing plant but actually I thought they were like really cool I think that like if the 60s design team could do like the singing plants today they would do them exactly like that I like the plants
01:00:18
Speaker
Regarding the makeup of Vina when she's damaged, I thought it was really good. She has the same scar across her face, she has the same damage on the side of her face. The only really big difference is she's not like,
01:00:37
Speaker
like how she's got this huge lump on her shoulder or whatever in the cage. She's a fuzzy moto. Yeah, almost. But then you got to imagine that time passes between now and the menagerie. I don't know. It was the cage originally, wasn't it? Yeah. She was like that. In the menagerie. She was maybe healed a little or something. The menagerie reuses basically all the scenes from the cage. Yeah. Yeah. So she should have been as damaged.
01:01:08
Speaker
But that was like a flashback that was set to before the events of this episode when they... She could have been as damaged in this episode as she was in the cage. But maybe they, after they studied Pike in the cage, they were able to like... Hail her. Yeah, make her a little bit better. But she still has the scars or whatever.
01:01:29
Speaker
I'm OK with it. I enjoyed the fact that you had the same like visual like facial problems. I didn't think it was as gruesome as it looked in the original series. I think they could have.
01:01:41
Speaker
Why are the Talosians so interested in Burnham and Spock's relationship and in particular that memory of her rejecting Spock as a child? That's what they do. They have a desire for understanding everything about everything. They basically, if Talosians existed on Earth, they would be watching Big Brother
01:02:05
Speaker
like all day like they just they just they just want to like spy on people and like speak into their lives no that's like that's their thing like like yeah it's true thing is logic Klingon thing is honor the Talosian thing is like like spy on people like watch their lives yeah
01:02:28
Speaker
I didn't like how the Talosians in this episode didn't have that air of superiority that they had in their cage. They're kind of like really nice.
01:02:37
Speaker
in this episode, I didn't like that. I like everything in this episode on the page is good. But they're nice in the menagerie, because they like accept, they like bring, they like hike. But in the cage and so that, you know, their own personal, like they have an interest in this. What like they have no interest in the hit in this episode, apart from maybe digging into, prying into like Spock and Bum's relationship.
01:03:05
Speaker
I would have liked the Talosian to say like, you know, Burnham, give us one of your memories or we will take it from you or something like that. I don't know. Just to be just to be a little bit threatening. Like I was saying earlier, we're like the end of the cage. Talosians learn that they're they're all going to die. So they might have been like less assholey because they're not as preoccupied with like the survival of their race. They've kind of accepted their fate.
01:03:32
Speaker
And it might make sense that they're a little bit more benevolent now that they've looked in the Spock's mind and they've seen that all life in the galaxy is going to be destroyed. So maybe they're thinking like, well, if our race is doomed, there's no reason for everyone else to be doomed. So we can fix this guy and send him back. And maybe like Spock can go get his captain and maybe they can
01:03:56
Speaker
Oh, maybe they can like save the galaxy. And then when they invite Pike back to come live with them in the Menagerie, maybe that was like to reward him for saving all the life in the galaxy in season two of Discovery.
01:04:07
Speaker
Yeah, that would be a nice tie and sounds pretty, uh, pretty, pretty like spot on. Uh, there is one scene though, where Vina does say, Hey, you don't want to, you don't want them to force payment. It's not pleasant, but she does. She does hint at their, that they are capable of a darker, a darker way.
01:04:30
Speaker
Uh, the Saru and Pike scene. Uh, okay. Uh, Sean has to leave in a second, but really quickly you have to give your rating before you leave, but I just want to point out that I really loved the Saru Pike scene, uh, post.
01:04:43
Speaker
the fight uh where he says basically like he's like and like he kind of addresses the evolution thing with like maybe you wouldn't have made the same decision before and then he says but moving forward the uniform code of conduct has to be the way and i just love that scene that's one of the reasons i love pike so like he's such a refreshing like leader in terms of like how he's forgiving but at the same time lays down the law i just i love counterhikes anyways i agree it's great but
01:05:13
Speaker
Sean, before you go, do you want to give your rating for this episode and any final thoughts? And then we can keep discussing, guys, if you guys want to. OK, so I give this episode an 8 out of 10. Wow. Because I think that the episode does work on its own, like regardless of all the cannon tie ins and like all of what it did with the cages in Menagerie. I think the episode is a good episode. It finally explains a lot of things that are going on in this season.
01:05:41
Speaker
gives us a good backstory to Burnham and Pike, Burnham and Spock, sorry. I love everything they're doing with Culber. It doesn't bother me that Culber is kind of a side story to every episode because I think that the story is growing well. And I enjoyed his fight scene. I thought it was very well executed, except maybe at the end of the fight scene, they didn't seem, both of them didn't seem to like exhausted. They seemed quite fine, but
01:06:10
Speaker
Um, I think incredibly good shape, but anyways, go on. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. But no, I really liked the episode. I do have some problems with the visual, like, I suppose interpretation of the theologians. Um, but other than that, I think story was, it was great. So best episode of discover season two for me so far. Wow. Eight's high praise for you. So excellent. All right. Thank you guys. Thank you so much for having me.
01:06:37
Speaker
Hey, thanks for being on. And wait, one more thing. Sorry. One more thing. Enjoy your time in New Zealand. We're going to miss you for five weeks, five freaking weeks. It's insane. Yeah, I know you'll be on the Twitter, but we like seeing your videos every week and stuff like that. So it'll be cool when you get back. And, and unfortunately, yeah, you'll have a lot of work. So, but anyways, have a great time and live long and prosper. And we'll, we'll see you when you, when you get back, sir. Thanks.
01:07:08
Speaker
All right, so I only have a few more notes on this episode. But if you guys have anything to say, start wrapping up our discussion too and give our ratings. But the last say, I already talked about the tilt of the ships. I like the humor, like say goodbye Spock, that scene that was really funny and he's like goodbye Spock.
01:07:29
Speaker
I liked the tricks that they did there with the... I was mad when they had the transporter lock, and I was like, why aren't you showing Burnham and Spock right now being stuck in a transporter lock, not going anywhere? Discovery, I hate it when you do this, when you don't show us the visuals of what's going on. Why would you just show them to me? And then I'm like, oh, that's why. It was actually really clever what they did there. Clever guy, it was pretty cool.
01:07:57
Speaker
And then I liked the whole thing about riding into danger. Seeing Spock and Captain Pike reunited just gave me all the feels. Again, I know that's like a millennial thing, but it totally gave me that. And I loved it. I loved all of it. Note for note. You got anything else on Discovery? Or do we all need to give our ratings?
01:08:23
Speaker
I guess I just have a question. The main question I have is like what do you guys think Philip, Emperor George, what's the deal with this character? Like in the last episode she claims to know Burnham better than Burnham knows herself. There's like definitely something going on where she can burn him but I just don't buy it. Like she seems like you know like a solidly evil character. Are we looking
01:08:48
Speaker
at a redemption plot and then when we get her in section 31 like i don't i just don't really this is a lot of like gray area for me i don't want to see her redeemed um she can have like darth vader redemption and die in the process i can i could not have the person who ruled a fascist xenophobic empire who exterminated entire planets who ate people
01:09:12
Speaker
Right, she admits in this episode, she's like, oh, I came across the Talosians in my universe. After they tried their mind trick shit on me, I just blew them out. Yeah, blew them all basically. Like, I did not have her be like the hero week to week.
01:09:31
Speaker
writing wrongs and doing good. She is too disgusting of a person. The only way she could really redeem herself would be to go back to the Mirror Universe and bring down the Terran Empire that has inflicted all of this pain on the countless worlds. And we know from Star Trek canon that that doesn't happen. The Terran Empire is still a thing.
01:09:55
Speaker
I have no I have no interest anymore as Georgia show based on most of what you just said. She's still kind of a villainous character in the show. And I think there's other ways to make it work. But yeah, I do not I do not want a Georgia redemption story.
01:10:17
Speaker
Fair. And then I think it's going to happen next week with Ariam and the freaking crazy red three lights. And what's going on here? Do you guys have any more insider theories about these 500 years from the future? What's going on? Go on. That technology from the future that's now being used through Ariam.
Speculation on Section 31's Future Threat
01:10:44
Speaker
i think it's somehow gonna infiltrate section 31 and the next episode they kind of go there and it's all shut down and something's wrong and arium you know goes ballistic so do you think they're gonna put down are you gonna have to put i know she's gonna she's gonna escape she's gonna go off somewhere and she's gonna become something else and
01:11:09
Speaker
Oh, oh, I expected that there were Borg ties, but I don't know.
01:11:15
Speaker
One theory I have, you know how early in this episode, Giorgio says that she doesn't like taking orders from these computers and all this stuff. What if the Section 31 computers become like this advanced Skynet level AI? I think David Mack kind of had some novels about Section 31 about this
01:11:40
Speaker
But they make this super advanced evil computer system in the future. And that's what sent the probe back in time. It would be an interesting way to explain why in TOS and onward, there is less of an emphasis on, computers aren't developed to the level of data. Until data comes along, we don't really see that level of- Positronic brains. Yeah, positronic brains and things like that.
01:12:07
Speaker
though it is acknowledged that the enterprise is AI, it does serve the crew rather than have its own thoughts and feelings and things like that. It's bereft of any kind of like sentience as far as we can tell except for a few exceptions where like the story like you know caused it to become more advanced. So maybe something does go out of control and that explains why later on the federation is like oh no yeah we have to put a kibosh on this kind of technology or whatever or they're reticent to use it
01:12:35
Speaker
They could also use it to erase all traces of Section 31 from all the computers. And that's why Cisco couldn't research them in DS9 knowing it seemed to have heard about them, except for some Starfleet officials that would write them off.
01:12:51
Speaker
Yeah, it is odd how well or how section 31 is. I like the scene where Captain Pike says, as much as it pains me to distrust a division of Starfleet, I hope we get to them before section 31 does. So I do think things are being planted for section 31 to go underground more, like to go deep, deep, deep underground.
01:13:20
Speaker
All right, that's all I got, guys. Anything else? PJ, you wanted to talk about the editing. Oh, I do want to talk about sound design was superb. So was the music in this episode. And I had an interaction with the editor on Twitter. And I thought editing was just pure editing, like scene cuts and things like that was great. I did think that the lens flares were overdone a little bit.
01:13:44
Speaker
uh in this episode but just you know i'll let pj because i think you have some comments about that right like you have some comments about just the visuals do you want to say that no certain direct certain directors of discovery uh they're they're allowed to do these things right they're allowed to do all you know the weird angles yeah it's like it's your visual take it to a level where it's just totally unnecessary
01:14:07
Speaker
And if you look at a lot of scenes in this episode on the Discovery hallways and in rooms, it looks like somebody's burning toast in every room.
01:14:18
Speaker
And it's like, it's just a fog and a haze. And you watch other episodes and it's not filmed the same. There's different styles within each episode. And I just didn't like this director's style, but overall like the story and the information we got and the acting was very on par, but just the visuals were a bit distracting for me, so.
01:14:41
Speaker
I didn't notice the spoke or the fog, but hey, it's a haze. It's more of a haze. I love the lighting. The lighting is weird. I did notice this episode was different. I did. I did notice this episode was different, but different was God is the director right of this episode, I think is the name of the director. I actually.
01:15:07
Speaker
Yeah. I liked some of the wider and that they went wider than they normally do with some of the angles, especially like at the end when Pike is like walking to the view screen facing off against the Lynn, like the discovery bridge looked even more wide than it usually does. One thing I did love is that like ever since interstellar worm, uh, black holes are now portrayed like scientifically accurately. Right. And so I had like, kind of like a, that black hole, the Telosian illusion looked a lot like the interstellar black hole.
01:15:37
Speaker
kind of love that that was done and yeah it looked pretty cool and then how like I love just again there's just so much to talk about but we gotta you know stay with the time frame but I love how Spock wakes up from his like haze to like power down you know like he's like you know he just like has these moments of clarity
01:15:57
Speaker
like fluid through time or whatever he's experiencing. I imagine it's not unlike how Captain Sisko, Commander Sisko was like, you know, interacting with the wormhole aliens. You know, he's like going through these memories and he doesn't know where he is and stuff like that. But for a moment, he can like bring himself, force himself back into the present moment. And I love that scene where he like, Burnham's freaking out. Like what the hell are you doing? Like,
01:16:22
Speaker
like and you know and you just like force her back like yourself hold her back and force down the controls it was just like a very scary cool moment it was nice it was good that they actually remembered that Vulcans are supposed to be way stronger than humans
01:16:41
Speaker
I also love that. And what's the martial art that the Vulcans use called again? Susma. Thank you. Like, I execute so beautifully in that scene in the in the memory of of the the psychiatric ward. Like, I mean, it's like he does the neckpinch in like such a quick like it's just boom, boom, boom. He's not really doing martial arts like some equal Martin Green would do. And I don't want him to do that because that's more of her thing than his thing.
01:17:09
Speaker
But it was more of in the same tradition of the original series where Spock wasn't really much of a fist fighter. He would he would do like the the precise nerve pinch. Every now and then he would have to do like the double punch, the greatest attack in Star Trek history and most powerful combo.
01:17:30
Speaker
and Star Trek was like a three fighter fighting video game. Does that move have a name in wrestling or anything like that? Is that like something that- It's the two-handed punch. Yeah. We call it the double fist. Yeah, double fist. If you go back and watch some of our videos when me and Dave were captured by our Mirror Universe doppelgangers. I gotta definitely go back to watch that. Dave actually does a double fist punch on Mirror Universe Fathery.
01:17:59
Speaker
It's in our opening part of the sequence that we use on our videos now. I'll check it out. I do know that, but I'll check out the actual. I want to go back and look at the full thing. Yeah, we just came out of an agony booth. It's pretty. Oh my gosh, I can't wait to go see that. That note, audience, pause this video and go check it out right away and come back. Now that you're back,
01:18:31
Speaker
You got to do that, right? Like you get in that the audience actually did what you asked. I'm assuming so. Yeah. So now that you're back audience, I think, uh, do you guys think it's safe to give a closeout and give our ratings and final? Yeah. PJ, do you have anything else that you wanted to say? We're giving our ratings now, right? Yeah. It's okay. Yeah. So what did Sean give it an eight?
01:18:58
Speaker
He gave it an eight. I'm gonna give it a 10, just predictable Starfleet boy here. There you go. I love this episode a lot, and I'm excited for the next one. Go on. I'm gonna come down to the middle between you and Sean and give it a nine. Nice. I am also gonna give it a high score, a seven. Yeah. A what, seven? A seven.
01:19:26
Speaker
I would have given it a higher score if they only just I was a lot of little nitpicky things like the visuals and the design choices I didn't appreciate I liked it the amount of information we got though so I hated the the shuttlecraft having a transporter was my nitpick even though the doesn't
01:19:46
Speaker
explicitly violate any canon. I've always thought of TOS shuttlecrafts as not having transporters. I thought it was something that didn't come along until next generation time. So that kind of bugged me. But other than that, I didn't have too many major complaints. I was OK with some of the visual changes. And yeah, there's so much I loved in this episode that I got to give it a nine. I like the previous episode a little bit more.
01:20:16
Speaker
A little bit more. So this average is out to, uh, between, uh, I would say like between an 8.5 and a nine. So I'm going to, as the ruling party here, I'm just going to go ahead and bump it up to a nine. And so our very first nine average, I always bring your scores down. I know. Thank you. It's probably fair, but it's, but I get, but the chair out ranks the bad PJ.
01:20:44
Speaker
This is like kind of an example of like what would be par for the course in season three of Discovery. And now that we've kind of had the shakedown crews of the first
01:20:55
Speaker
two seasons of Discovery, what if we can expect this type of quality from things like the Picard show and Lower Decks in section 31? The next, I just want to say, I forgot, I meant to say this earlier, the next episode is nine, right? So that's going to be directed by Jonathan Frakes and written by Heather Paradise. Michelle Paradise, they call it Heather. It's going to be a big episode.
01:21:21
Speaker
it's gonna be huge because they bring back freaks and the the writer of this episode got promoted to co-show runner so there's gonna be some shit go down yeah what is the final count of this season's gonna be 13 episodes 14
01:21:36
Speaker
There's six more. So we're getting towards the final kind of like the home stretch is not yet here, but it's getting there. So that's cool. PJ, I think you might also know this, but Michelle Paradise has also supposedly written the last two episodes of the season. I never heard that. I looked back. I learned that she started her involvement in the show.
01:22:04
Speaker
back in episode four. I thought it was like much later. You look back at the credits, she appears after episode three. Oh yeah, yeah, but her role has definitely grown throughout the season, apparently. Yeah, I mean like she's co-showrunner now, so. Yeah, and with this episode coming up, we're gonna really get to see what she's all about.
01:22:28
Speaker
They said that she's very well versed in Star Trek lore, but I feel like they say that on every writer they hire. Oh, yeah. I'm definitely excited about checking out what she can bring to the table, because they've definitely hyped her up. And she's also writing the last two episodes of the season.
Director's Influence and Non-Violent Approach This Season
01:22:47
Speaker
And I think at least one of those, maybe both of them, are directed by, I have a hard time with his name, but it begins with the O.
01:22:55
Speaker
Point of lady, directed point of lady. Oh, oh, on Toonday, Osamni. I'm probably saying it wrong, but something like that. Well, I mean, he's kind of like that. He's one of the. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to show you. He's kind of like he's like the main director. He's kind of like the producer of directors. So I think that they're building up to a big kind of two part season finale.
01:23:23
Speaker
And maybe that'll finally be when we have a battle between Section 31 and the Discovery or something like that. They haven't really shot any phasers or torpedoes at anything all season long, other than they shot a torpedo at Spock's shuttle when Georgia was on it. Other than that, the Discovery hasn't really done any violence.
01:23:44
Speaker
I think that, like, I have to say that I think that was violence in season one, so I'm really enjoying that it's a lot more exposition.
Anticipated Major Confrontation
01:23:52
Speaker
And I do think that when they do, like, restrain themselves, that scene that you referenced in particular with the shuttle, it was awesome. Like, it's just so tactically, like, it seemed really like it was just a very cool kind of display of force and stuff. And after all, Discover Mind's vessel, it shouldn't be armed to the teeth like the other ships
01:24:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think it wasn't intentionally trying to back off of the violence after season one. So now if they're, if they're building up to like a big confrontation, it's going to feel so much more powerful because it's not something
01:24:33
Speaker
Join week to week.
Character Tensions and Potential Betrayals
01:24:35
Speaker
It's George. I was George. I was definitely gonna kill Leland. That's gonna happen Well, she's gotten for his job. So Well, yeah, but then but he seems to be a he's a mixed bag cuz like if he
01:24:48
Speaker
stuff like that's gonna be interesting reveal when Burnham finds out about it She's gonna go batshit crazy and like, you know, try to murder him herself well lots of lots of interesting things to see how they You know come to play and like
Theme of Mutiny in Star Trek
01:25:02
Speaker
this episode. I don't think we talked about in our discussion But like they basically meant the the the admirals Say like Burnham has committed treason again
01:25:11
Speaker
They're like, you know, so she's already like, she's already like, kind of on the, on the radar again to, to like lose her rank. So it's kind of like an interesting layout, but I am, I am excited and interested. They're all on the run now. They've all committed treason by the end of the episode. They've all agreed to mutiny.
01:25:32
Speaker
That's a Star Trek tradition though. Like sometimes you gotta hijack the enterprise and go take stock. Hell with our orders.
Promotion of Social Media Handles and Episode Ratings
01:25:40
Speaker
Anything to promote guys? Anything going on that you want to talk to my audience about? Our audience here?
01:25:48
Speaker
Sure, you can follow me on Twitter at TX Trek and be sure to check out Text Trek on our YouTube channel, as well as our audio-only podcast. You can get all the information on that at text-trek.com. Please, by all means, like us on Facebook, facebook.com slash text-trek.
01:26:09
Speaker
Excellent. And PJ? You can find me on Twitter at PJ's channel one or on YouTube boat trek. That's boat like a boat and wreck area, which I love when you when I figured that out. Finally, I was like, that's cool.
01:26:27
Speaker
All right, excellent. Everyone can find Sean who was just on at Trek on the Tube and it's also Trek on the Tube on Twitter and he'll be on a hiatus for five weeks, which will be cool. So I like about that is we'll see more of you guys hopefully on the next episodes and I'm going to try to be more organized.
01:26:50
Speaker
We'll try to keep his seat warm while he's gone. While he's gone. I'm also trying to get more organized to do these bigger group discussions. It's hard to coordinate when you get a full-time job, but I think I'm starting to get the hang of it, so hopefully we'll see you guys more in general. And I appreciate your time and your thoughts, because I got some insights that I didn't have before, even though I maintained my 10 rating.
01:27:16
Speaker
on this episode. It's definitely boys giving out a lot of 10s like they're just freebies here. It's like, and prosper and we'll see you guys next time. Later. Peace.