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Star Trek the Next Generation Discussion: Season 5 Recap
37 Plays2 years ago
Our casual and informal discussion about Season 5 of Star Trek the Next Generation and some Holiday inspired shenanigans!
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Transcript
Recap of TNG Season 5 with Sean
00:00:01
Speaker
And we're back.
00:00:04
Speaker
I wish we had caught that. But again, it's a podcast exclusive. We are back on another exciting episode of Starfleet Boy, where we have a casual and informal conversation about Star Trek. We're focused on Star Trek, the next generation. And we've come at last to the recap for season five. I was so honored that you ended season five with me, Sean. And I'm honored now that you're here on the recap. And we may have a surprise
00:00:33
Speaker
visit from the doctor but uh but you know if we don't it's still going to be a fun recap episode i'll guide you through it i know it'll be boring until he gets here yeah you were hoping to sit this one back but uh but i don't think i won't be able to do that i was hoping to be like a kind of a sit back guest and just watch you guys do this i'm new to this i don't know what to do
Reflecting on TNG's First Season
00:00:57
Speaker
Well, the very first recap episode was done as a way to kind of reflect on the first season. And I have to admit, it was like, I was way more organized. I went back.
00:01:09
Speaker
Well, yeah, I think I mean, I do think that that was definitely a note in our discussion was was that, like, it was surprising as, you know, all these years later to rewatch season one and realize, oh, it's not that great. It's really the only episode that stands out to me in season one is like the one one zero one one whatever the name is.
00:01:33
Speaker
of the BINARs, right? Yeah, the BINARs. I think it's like 1-1-0-0-1-0-0-1 or whatever. But of course, looking at it as the TNG, as a completist or completionist, if you will, which is how we kind of see it now, now that we know everything
TNG vs Discovery: A Comparison
00:01:50
Speaker
that happened. These discussions about TNG are actually not like, they're not like our discussions of discovery, which are a lot more reactionary because we don't know what's going to happen next, right?
00:02:00
Speaker
So to be fair, the one thing like what you just said, what I think is like every season has its like charming moments and jewels and like exciting things that like those are the things you end up remembering about the season because eventually you forget about all the plot holes and things like that. Well, as time passes, we become more indulgent, don't we? Except for the X-Men movies.
00:02:30
Speaker
where they just get worse and worse. Your brain is completely on Marvel. I mean, like, yeah, but still, you really don't want to talk about Star Trek today. It looks like you just want to talk about, you know, X-Men. They gave me an Avengers in-game trailer. I am hyped.
Marvel Movies and Comic Conventions
00:02:54
Speaker
OK, you're also you're also tuned into the live feed at the comic convention where they share about Spider-Man. Your heart's really into this recap here. I love it. I love it. So we're recapping the first 10 years of Marvel. That's it. The first 10 years of Marvel Studios.
00:03:22
Speaker
So a tradition on the recap shows is that we go through episode by episode shod using the beautiful artwork that Gary from
'Better Late Than Never' and its Cancellation
00:03:37
Speaker
The Gary from Tracker Prize. You weren't this excited when Famke Jensen met Patrick Stewart. It was a perfect mate. And that was the total opportunity for you to get really worried. It was. I always do things wrong. I'm sorry. It's all right. Now you're fine. Better late than never. Which is a great show. I said it was canceled.
00:03:50
Speaker
-
00:04:07
Speaker
Wait, there was a show called Better Late Than Never. Henry Winkler, William Shatner, George Foreman. Yes. He got cancelled. Oh my God. He's the one I don't remember because he was the football player. I'm not too good on American football. Terry Bradshaw? Terry Bradshaw.
00:04:29
Speaker
Yeah, they did two seasons. I can't I have no idea why I know that. Why do you know it's here? Anyway, the show was canceled, but they never was a great show. I loved it. It was emotional. I had a lot of laughs and I had a lot of cries.
00:04:46
Speaker
Were there any, you know, I'm a William Shatner aficionado or fan or enthusiasts, whatever, whatever you want to say. He's very present. Was there a William Shatner moment that made you emotional? Like was there one that you can remember during the show? Remember we audience, if you, if you're here and you think there's no spoilers, there are spoil lots of spoilers on Starfleet boy.
Impact of Praxis Explosion on Klingons
00:05:10
Speaker
So the two most, um,
00:05:14
Speaker
The two moments that made me cry was Henry Winkler. Henry Winkler. Germany. Germany.
00:05:20
Speaker
I saw that episode. Like the pavement where... That made me cry too. He was really super emotional. There was the George Foreman... There were two moments with George Foreman. There was one where he met the family of a guy that he fought in his youth, like at the Olympics, I think it was. But then he met the family, but the guy was dead and he got to meet the family and it was a very emotional moment. I didn't see that one.
00:05:45
Speaker
It was a moment where he went and helped out like a kid's club for boxing. And so he went there and trained with them. It was very emotional. It's a great, I love the show. I don't remember any sad moments with William Shatner. He's the fun guy. He made me laugh a lot.
00:06:06
Speaker
That just goes to show he's got a great life and he's a Canadian. And let me not be mean and promote the host, Jeff, which I don't know what I don't know what he does, but he was there. And so someone's got to be like the
00:06:21
Speaker
Someone's got to be like the hard worker, right? Because someone's got to go and like... There's no way William Shatner is going to lug his luggage upstairs or anything like that. That's what Japen's there for. He's there to help. If I made William Shatner in the street and he was having to handle his luggage, I would carry his luggage to his hotel, right?
00:06:45
Speaker
I would, of course, any, any, I would do that for a stranger though. That's like a nice suggestion. Any stranger? Yeah, anyone, just anyone. If they asked, I don't know if I would volunteer. I mean, so that's
Characters like Wesley in TNG's Development
00:06:57
Speaker
the difference. If I saw William Shatner, I'd ingratiate myself. Yeah, okay. But if I were asked by anyone, I would definitely do it. You would carry my luggage like six blocks.
00:07:09
Speaker
Yours especially because you're my friend. Happy Christmas. Yes. Happy Christmas check on the team. That was your sentimental moment on Starfleet Boy. So let's get started. We're stalling a little audience admittedly. We're giving the
Technical Difficulties in Starfleet Boy
00:07:34
Speaker
doctor a little time. What's that? We're bringing the Christmas cheer.
00:07:39
Speaker
Yes, we are. Oh, and here we go. So I'm going to share my screen. Hang on. Let's open these here. Oh, it didn't open correctly. So I have to do it another way. God damn it. Damn it.
00:08:00
Speaker
I know. They give us, they give us very little to work with here on this, on the star base that I'm on right here. They don't, they don't even have a holographic technology. I have to talk to you on a view screen. Yeah, I can't believe it. In all fairness, I think that view screens are much better than holographic communication devices.
00:08:27
Speaker
Let's see if this works. Oh, no, it didn't work though. Hold on. Well, I see something, but I see nothing. Okay. I figured it out.
00:08:47
Speaker
Starfleet Boy is all about technical difficulties. We love them. They're still out of order. Oh, maybe it's because, hold on one second. Come on. Redemption part two. What was redemption?
00:09:12
Speaker
That's the episode that wraps up Worf's exile story.
Worf's Development in TNG
00:09:20
Speaker
All right, let's see if this works. It's funny because Gary has them numbered absolutely correctly, but my computer doesn't understand how to parse
00:09:37
Speaker
Well, can you not do the, what is it? Rearrange them by order, like by name? Yes, I'm trying. God damn it, that's what I'm trying to do. Gee, Earl Grey, hot. That's what I'm trying to accomplish. My aunt Adele, hold on, here we go. My aunt Adele.
00:10:07
Speaker
Well, that's something that they introduced this season was Captain Picard's Aunt Adele. Remember, he offers the doctor... Did you notify him? Oh my gosh, you managed to get it in there.
00:10:30
Speaker
You did such a good job. That was really good. Yes, she does die in a fire, actually. Or she's already dead, I think. Poor Adele. So my whole system froze, and I'm not going to restart my computer over this. So we might not be able to see Gary's beautiful artwork. Hold on. I'm trying.
00:11:00
Speaker
Hold on, hold on. There's got to be a way. There's there's always a way to do this. Let's try opening it in this program instead. I will say, oh man, Picard, it better be like an emotional show because he's he's had a very, you know, full life and a very emotional life, Picard. Oh, yeah, definitely. I really hope they're going to like bookend a lot of that.
00:11:28
Speaker
because I think a lot of people got mad for name is this because it bookings nothing much and. Okay, here we go. So it doesn't wanna open, for some reason, it does not wanna open them in order no matter what I do. So I'm just gonna show them,
00:11:55
Speaker
one at a time here. We're just going to have to do it the old way, the old fashioned way. Sorry, I was trying to be so pro guys on stick shift today, but it's fine. Whatever. That's a really good, good way. I'm surprised you didn't call it manual because I thought stick shift was a, was a very American term. I think it is. I think it is.
00:12:21
Speaker
I thought New Zealanders. We do say manual, but my brain is all confused because I'm a child of the world. That's you, R&D. All right. All right. So we figured this out. Technology. Here we go. Application window. And ta-da. Yes.
00:12:46
Speaker
Display Gary's artwork, Redemption Part 2. So we are... Do you remember this episode? I do remember. Did you watch it in the journey? Did I watch it in my journey? I watched it in my full rewatch of TNG recently, which is... It's a good thing I did that. Last year I rewatched all TNG, which means... But I didn't rewatch it with you guys. I came into this season with the episode too.
00:13:13
Speaker
That's right. OK, so redemption part two, I think for me, it was just it was it was a really good episode. I like that whole kind of civil war, not like the whole idea that like, you know, there was a dispute for the the chancellor position and and Worf getting his his family name restored, et cetera, et cetera. But
00:13:38
Speaker
But, you know, and also Tony Todd's created as his brothers. There's a lot of cool like things about that episode because it sets up, you know, kind of like I think it really like positions Wharf in a solid place as far as like, you know, story points are concerned, like the main cast. Like you think of Wharf as like a very developed, fleshed out character. And it's because he has like two parters and there's a lot of exploration of his his Klingonness.
00:14:08
Speaker
Here's one of the characters that they do take time to make two pots about. Um, uh, we do get like data two pots, but then the whole of TNG is basically about data and Picard. I think every, I, I can't remember, but I think everyone gets a two parter like by the end of the show. When does like Beverly crush you get a two potter? I have the, I just like, there's like, I can't think of it. Yeah. Troy get a two potter.
00:14:34
Speaker
Well, isn't the Romulan one coming up next season? Isn't that a two parter?
00:14:40
Speaker
the one where she she she's masquerading as a member of the Tal Shiar. Is that a two parter? Is that about her specifically? Well, she's like, well, I mean, OK, but like, sure. But like, we don't really get too many two parters about anyone. I'm just saying like a main cast member featured. But you're right. War physics. War seems to stand out in that way, too, where where they do the same thing. It's not as well. All that out of its very significant episodes.
00:15:11
Speaker
It's because he's so important to the Empire, ironically, isn't it? I mean, he's always been part of the Federation Starfleet. He was born on Earth. Well, he was raised on Earth, wasn't born there. But he's so important for the Klingon Empire.
00:15:30
Speaker
I agree. And he, I think Worf is kind of like that we kind of talked about this on our discussion of the brightest star, but like he's definitely like a character that, you know, kind of the reason why he's so important is because he's like a unique character. I mean, he's a Klingon.
00:15:45
Speaker
who is raised by humans, who serves in Starfleet and is working for the Federation. Even though the Klingons are allies with the Federation at this point, it's kind of like a tenuous thing. They're like, well,
00:16:03
Speaker
there's a lot of places where we just don't agree and so we kind of want to maintain it's kind of like Brexit if you think it's like it's like the Klingons are like the Klingons are like yeah we'll be your ally but we don't want to be a member of the Federation right like isn't that basically what it is I don't think so I think that yeah okay no maybe that's it okay yeah
00:16:31
Speaker
Fair enough. Yeah. And that's never, as far
Underexplored Aspects of Praxis Explosion
00:16:33
Speaker
as I know, you know, at the end of Voyager, but still the Brexit is all about leaving the, like the union, whereas these guys have never really integrated different, they've never been part of the Federation. They were just kind of allies, but the allies, because they can't afford to not be allies anymore because of more praxis, um,
00:16:55
Speaker
Anyway, I still don't understand the full effects of praxis because like in the in the In star trek 6 and I haven't we haven't recorded our star trek 6 discussion yet So i'm sure this will be fleshed out a little bit more, you know in star trek 6 there's this like dire Situation happening where basically the klingons only have a certain amount of time Like I think they say 50 years of life left on their home world right because praxis explodes but
00:17:23
Speaker
In all of Klingon space, I can't imagine that there's not another habitable
00:17:29
Speaker
world where the Klingons can just relocate and start like About that. I think it's it's also a lot about how praxis was one of their main like energy production facilities like most of the Empire would would get its energy from the smooth they were digging from this moon and So there was like a like an issue there was a problem and that's what blew up praxis which makes me believe that like it's like the problem was a cover-up for like
00:17:58
Speaker
an attack or something, but that's not kind of necessary to me thinking about that. But anyway, the problem is it puts the empire in a situation where they probably need external help. They need to start importing or trading or creating stronger alliances if they want to sustain their empire, which is why they end up stopping their fighting with the Federation.
00:18:22
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. But again, by, yeah, so as you say, but as we so big, you know, I mean, is this one moon, you know, really enough that would be the supply of the empire. But anyway.
00:18:37
Speaker
I think that's what's kind of missing from the TNG era is that because Star Trek VI literally came up with that in the middle of while TNG was running, it kind of goes against what TNG was establishing the Klingons as in the future. And so then later, I think they do backfill and like they mentioned Praxis or whatever. But what I would say is that in the TNG era,
00:19:05
Speaker
clearly the Klingons have recovered but there's no real ever discussion about it as far as I know and like you don't ever see as far as I know Praxis until I think Star Trek Into Darkness there's
Federation-Klingon Relations Post-Praxis
00:19:21
Speaker
the it's implied that the moon is perpetually in a crashing orbit with the Klingon home world and so it's like this weird thing in the in the opening sequence you do see like a destroyed moon kind of orbiting very closely to the Klingon home world and I thought that was a striking and interesting idea that maybe I'm not sure it's the same
00:19:42
Speaker
No, I think the Kelvin timeline does its own thing. But I mean, they don't say it, but I wonder if that's meant to be like the Kelvins version of like a practice situation. And that's why the Klingons in Kelvin universe are so hardcore.
00:20:02
Speaker
I'm very disappointed that the neutrino bomb that they have in Star Trek Discovery was placed in Konos and not in Praxis because I would have liked to be placed in Praxis and then people forget about it and so many years later in Star Trek 6 it blows up and that's what blew up Praxis.
00:20:21
Speaker
That would have been amazing. We had talked about that in our discussion, and it could have been just as easy to have done it. It would have just like saying that we all know that Praxis is one of the main energy sources for the Klingon Empire, so it would have been justifiable as well. It was exactly the same story.
00:20:44
Speaker
I agree, I agree. Well, so that was redemption. I remember the doctor and I rated it pretty high. I think we gave it close to eights or nines or something like that, maybe even higher than that. Yeah, it was like a voice. I forget her name. What's that? What's her name? Tashi. The actor.
00:21:12
Speaker
Oh, Denise Crosby. Denise Crosby. You guys enjoy seeing Denise Crosby now and then. We like her a lot. Yeah, we like her a lot. And she's she's a great actress. And I think that, like, in a way, this was her redemption and her way to come back. You know, even though Cela doesn't really last very long, but it was her way to like come back in. And I think fans appreciated it. I definitely appreciated seeing her at the time. It was a source of excitement.
00:21:40
Speaker
The next episode is an episode that I love and cherish.
Significance of 'Darmok' Episode
00:21:44
Speaker
I think of it as one of those quintessential Star Trek episodes, and that is Darmok.
00:21:51
Speaker
into Nagra, where the walls fell. And to me, this is just such a great episode. Paul Winfield, pretty sure we gave it a 10. He's commander, Captain Turrell from Star Trek II, the captain of the USS Reliant. I get the same after. Yeah, I think so. I think I give it a 10. I'm pretty sure.
00:22:13
Speaker
It wasn't as, like, I have a very, very, I had a very, very high memory of this. Like, the way I remember this episode was just amazing, kind of in a light standard. But then upon rewatch, I found that it wasn't quite as, you know, overwhelmingly amazing.
00:22:40
Speaker
I don't know how to say that. We want to be overwhelmingly amazed these days. Hold on. There we go. We want to be overwhelmed. But it still is a really good episode and it's very iconic too. It's one of those defining TNG episodes that everyone knows about and everyone can reference and everyone can understand.
00:23:02
Speaker
It's true. Oh, let me make this a little bigger. Enter full form. This is great as well. There we go. Yes, the performances are superb. I don't know that there's much more I need to talk about this episode. I think it's just one of those where I can say, just go watch it. Pretty cool. Pretty unique. Absolutely. Interesting episode. All right, so next.
Introduction of Ensign Ro
00:23:31
Speaker
is the introduction of Ensign Rowe. And so let me pull that beautiful artwork showing off the beautiful, in my opinion, Michelle Forbes, although she doesn't really get to show off her
00:23:50
Speaker
full human beauty. Here she is playing Bajoran. In fact, the prototype for Bajorans and basically, I think I remember talking about how this episode was cool because it basically like set up Deep Space Nine. It was like a Star Trek kind of doing its own little, kind of like sneaking in a little bit of foreshadowing and stuff like that before Deus 9 came aboard.
00:24:19
Speaker
It is. They did that. They did that with the Bajorans. And the Maquis. And the Maquis. They did the Bajorans for the TNG Deep Space Nine transition, and then they did the Maquis for the Deep Space Nine Voyager transition, which was ironic, the second one, because they kind of dropped the Maquis into Voyager, but kept it on. They kept it going in Deep Space Nine.
00:24:40
Speaker
Well, yeah, but there's no it makes sense because in Voyager, it's like there there's no there is a lot of Maki attention, though, in season one and season two. Season one and two, there's a lot of, you know, I'm called like I call you Starfleet. I call you Maki. But well, Starfleet don't call them Maki. It's more the other way around. But it does make sense to drop the story out.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, what an offensive row, I think, in TNG though. Because this is the introduction of a character that's not enough in TNG. This is the introduction to a great character which I thought they could have built more upon, but they didn't.
00:25:17
Speaker
I don't know that behind this, this is usually where the doctor sometimes sheds a little light, but certainly there's a lot of backstory out there about why and this and that and why she left the show and why she didn't want to do Deep Space Nine. But as fate would have it, that was the case. And then so we have what we have, which is glorious. And here is the doctor.
00:25:42
Speaker
Look at that. You're right on time. We're talking about Ensign Ro. I was going to make the point that it was interesting to find out that Ensign Ro was supposed to be the character that Deep Space Nine was going to be founded on.
00:26:03
Speaker
and that Michelle Forbes' decision to not continue with this character ultimately launched an amazing show anyways, and we got the familiar cast of characters that we have, including Major Kira, who then becomes the Bajoran template in our minds, the idea of what a Bajoran is and stuff like that. I agree.
00:26:27
Speaker
Welcome to the season five recap, Doctor. Thank you. That's it. That's his opinion.
00:26:34
Speaker
It's so nice to have you. We went as slow as possible to get you here. Why? I'm sorry. I apologize for the lateness of the hour. No, we really wanted you. So we'll move the discussion right along. But I think Ensign Ro got a pretty high rating from us, if I recall. I can tell you my ratings each time, if you want.
00:27:01
Speaker
Because I have yeah, you can I don't remember you're prepared. That's great Wow That's that's completely opposite to everybody else here He said that he was prepared for season one the season one recap I was I had everyone's ratings and but I've gotten more casual and informal as More casual informal informal
00:27:27
Speaker
Doctor, any little thoughts on Ensign Ro before we talk about Silicon Avatar? No.
00:27:37
Speaker
No, not really. So this was an interesting episode. I remember the discussion, you know, we talked about the crystalline entity and wondered about it. And then we found out some, you know, interesting facts from the books about how they like live in a kind of a very specific region of space.
00:27:59
Speaker
And they really venture
Return of the Crystalline Entity
00:28:01
Speaker
outside of that and how we wondered if lore had lured it and how it became a man-eater or how it became a threat to life forms.
00:28:15
Speaker
So I thought this was a great episode. I think like I don't remember what my rating was, but I do remember it was definitely above a five I love the performances in this episode and and yeah, it was just another solid another pretty good episode coming into season five Um, yeah, it's what's always interesting to me about in the season recap is just
00:28:40
Speaker
What are the elements from previous seasons that come back? What are the elements that don't come back? And this was an example of
00:28:54
Speaker
Well, I mean, the silicon ever does not really a character, but something, a menace, let's say, that returned from a previous season, because it was first seen in, was it season one or? Yeah. Season one. Season one, because it was pretty much when they introduced data, wasn't it? Right, yeah, exactly. So it was a surprise to me that of all the things
00:29:18
Speaker
to return the Spilicon Avatar is one of the things that comes back. I certainly never expected that to happen. It's interesting to think that this crystalline entity is like a recurring villain. It's actually a thing floating around Federation space just killing people.
00:29:41
Speaker
yeah it's like it's like the uh in the original track the um what do you call that the cornucopia of doom the the thing that eats oh the planet eater that that thing yeah it's like that thing you know the cornucopia of doom i like that yeah i mean it's just kind of floating around eating star ships
00:30:04
Speaker
I mean, I like those kinds of foes, those things that just kind of float around and they're like road hazards.
00:30:13
Speaker
There's like a moby dick quality. Yeah. Well, that's true. Well, when someone's obsessed about destroying it. Yeah. Which I guess that also fits the description in this episode, because certainly the professor, whoever I forget what her name was, she was obsessed with destroying it. Star Trek's obsessed with Moby Dick. It comes up quite often. It does. It's interesting. It does.
00:30:38
Speaker
Anyways, then we get Poseidon Adventure in Space Disaster, which I recall being a fun episode to watch. And it also was, as Gary has beautifully illustrated in this image, it was also Captain Picard Day, which has become a celebrated kind of meme slash unofficial holiday among nerds and Star Trek fans.
00:31:02
Speaker
I couldn't tell you what day Captain Picard Day is off the top of my head. I just find out about it when it's happening and celebrate in the moment, but every day can be Captain Picard Day. I think every day is Captain Picard Day for you, Sal.
00:31:18
Speaker
This is true, especially since hearing about the Picard show. It's 100% true. But anyways, I also rated this one high if I recall correctly. And then I can't recall any of my
00:31:33
Speaker
Major qualms with this episode either. I thought it was just a fun little romp through through there it sets up a little interesting a few interesting little things like the the Detachment of Data's head in the scene that Gary's also referencing
00:31:49
Speaker
Ryker has to take Data's head and bring it to engineering. I don't know if you remember that. And that kind of echoes later on in the season, ironically, when we find Data's head at the end of the, in time zero in the cavern in San Francisco. So I thought that was kind of a cool
00:32:09
Speaker
cool thing that like getting audiences used to data being beheaded. What would have been great is if, and there's still an opportunity to do this, but wouldn't it be great if there was a time travel episode that explained the legend of Sleepy Hollow with Data being the headless horseman. God.
00:32:34
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know about that. Where does your mind go to? Really? I mean, it's, it's, it's not a stretch. That's not a stretch. Come on. Data, no head. Like it could happen and it could tell me he could, in fact, that might be a fun Halloween costume. Right? I mean, moving on to the next one.
00:33:04
Speaker
Anything to say about this one, Sean? In your rewatches, do you recall anything about disaster? Not much. It's not like an episode that I think stands out too much. It's not a bad one. It just doesn't stand out too much in my mind.
00:33:23
Speaker
Here's another iconic episode, but not for what the reasons you would think. It's iconic because Star Trek fans remember it as the appearance of Robin Loeffler played by Ashley Judd. Does she come back? She comes back, right, for another episode? Yeah, I think this is... No, I think that... Yeah, maybe there's one more, but I think this is... I think there is one more, right? There might be one more. Or is this her second appearance?
00:33:52
Speaker
This might be the second appearance. I can't remember. I'm a bad Star Trek fan. But I think this might be her second appearance, perhaps. And it's also an episode that we get a little away to get Wesley back in the mix.
Analysis of 'The Game' Episode
00:34:09
Speaker
He comes home from the Academy before his later in the same season. You know, his delinquency.
00:34:18
Speaker
And we find out that he's actually a terrible person. But in this episode, we see Wesley growing up a little bit.
00:34:36
Speaker
And he helps to thwart an evil and somewhat strange plan by a group of aliens that want to infiltrate the Federation using a video game. Not necessarily a bad plan, but they put all their eggs in this basket.
00:34:56
Speaker
This is a terrible episode. I gave it a 4. It's an iconic episode. I remember it, but not because it's good. It has a meme quality to it. It has this meme quality with the game and everything, but it really is shit. The planet is dumb. The aliens are stupid. It's not something, and ultimately, though it is fun,
00:35:22
Speaker
Um, to think about the game in a way, it doesn't make sense anymore. Oh, it's a really bad episode. Can we revise lower our ratings during the season? Can we go lower? Cause I think Sean may want to go lower. I gave him like two or three. Or okay. If you insist.
00:35:45
Speaker
Well, I'm not insisting. That's what it was. We already have like one person too much changing his ratings all the time. We're making them too high. You're right. You're right. You're right. Let's hold. Nice subtle jab there.
Review of 'Unification' Two-Parter
00:36:02
Speaker
So unification part one and unification part two. I'm going to bundle both of those into the same. Why did you use that? Why did they use that picture of Picard? He's I don't know. It's not the best picture. Gary, Gary has full carte blanche to seems kind of likes. I hope I hope Gary looks like I like it. Right. Oh, I don't know. It's like a shit eating grin there. It's like what's wrong with Picard there?
00:36:31
Speaker
I don't know what Gary's trying to do here with Picard.
00:36:35
Speaker
Sorry, I like I like this image but but if you happen to be hearing this Gary The doctor thinks you should have used a different image of Picard what doctor what? We recommend an image that he I will next time. Yeah, okay For our remastering for our remastered version of Starfleet boy. I'll also just An updated image. This is a good image for unification part to that By the first image
00:37:05
Speaker
It's kind of looking quizzically like, why did they use it? He doesn't use that either. Just made a narrative between two thumbnails. Yeah. Oh boy, oh boy. This is deep Starfleet boy canon here. This is some deep stuff. Only true Starfleet boy fans will be cracking up at this. And those of us that participate willingly and unwillingly.
00:37:33
Speaker
By the way, Doctor, you came up in an interesting side conversation. Someone was talking about Starfleet Boy and they were praising the show. And to them, the highlight was they said, you know, I like you and I like everyone, but I keep watching, hoping that the doctor is going to be on more. And I was like, what? No, no, no, you're just stroking me. It's true. It's true. And Sean, Sean, don't you get a little sad when the doctor is not
00:38:01
Speaker
Not here. I am. I'm disappointed. First of all, it makes the ratings better, doesn't it? Wow. I'm like a special guest star, huh? Well, we need your knowledge. You're the man with the knowledge. We appreciate you. Or at the very least, even if he doesn't have the knowledge, he's there to balance my... He is. He's also got that book, that one book.
00:38:31
Speaker
Yeah. That's right. Two bucks. He's got two books. He's got the starter companion, next generation companion, and he's got the field guide to the... I've got many books, let me tell you.
00:38:45
Speaker
Well, there's the one where the guy talks about his alien species. Yeah, that's a classic one. I love that. Well, I think everyone involved with this discussion gave unification really high marks. I think it's a wonderful two parter. I loved the way Spock was reintroduced into the series.
00:39:05
Speaker
I recall Sean you do have a couple of critiques about unification part one and part two and also a gigantic beef with Star Trek which is you think that the story emphasizes Spock the overall Star Trek is too much about Spock kind of like
00:39:23
Speaker
Yeah, so that's something that was an interesting point of discussion that came from, I don't think we talked about it on this episode when we talked about unification, but it's been something. I wasn't on unification. It's not, okay, this is one of my favorite two parties, right? It's not fantastic. I'm also aggravated at the fact that he doesn't have any ridges on his face and no one seems to mind. And they didn't even take the time to show any Romulans that have no ridges, which at least could have made sense.
00:39:52
Speaker
I mean, people on my channel get mad because I beef about the discovery Klingons, right? And then they say, you don't have these kind of complaints for TNG. I do. This is ridiculous. That is true. That is true. And I think...
00:40:14
Speaker
I think even you agreed that the problem with unification is getting caught up with the whole thing of, oh, it's Spock, he's back. But afterwards, there's always that lingering, like, gosh, it could have been better.
00:40:31
Speaker
When we gave our rating on the air, we gave it pretty high. I think realistically, I should have rated it a little bit lower because the ending is just a complete cop-out. Spock is not the best part of this episode.
00:40:49
Speaker
The whole emotional thing with Sarek, you know, dying, giving his memories to Picard, the impact that it has. Like Picard now, he has all of the memories of Spock, what is it, Cybok, Sarek, Burnham. Picard is the most knowledgeable person. But then all of this knowledge gets passed to Kelvin Kirk, who is the Uber
00:41:16
Speaker
I know. Every mind meld that Spock has ever done, every mind meld that Sarika has ever done, everyone. Picard has the memory of speaking with that rock from the original series, right? The Horta. Yeah, the Horta.
00:41:31
Speaker
Well, I think that the one good thing that comes out of Star Trek Discovery showing that the mind meld can kind of create these like interesting links or even enhance an individual's abilities by having this kind of like knowledge of katra kind of mixed with your own knowledge. What is Discovery? Is that a video game?
00:41:59
Speaker
I think Star Trek IV for Kelvin could have been really trippy and weird and they could have somehow bridged it right back into the prime timeline by somehow using this whole idea of a mind meld as a link between the two universes. I think that if they made a Kelvin timeline movie that somehow directly connects to Discovery, they would have riots.
00:42:25
Speaker
Because that's for sure people aren't fans of the Calvin timeline They come and warming up to it because it's its own pocket thing But then people aren't really fans of discovery if you start mixing them both together. I mean That's an explosive cocktail. Yeah. Yeah, well like it or not It does seem that are the hero of unification and you know that it's all about sparks So they're gonna give us a story with the two spots together like Zachary Quinto and um, what is it Adam? Oh my god
00:43:01
Speaker
Don't say things like that they listen they'll call it Spock squid Well, I just want to go on record as for Leonard Nimoy is the only true is the one is the only true Spock But okay
00:43:19
Speaker
So we move on to a matter of time, which was an interesting episode where a supposedly- Look at that guy up in the top left. What's that? Look at that guy's face up on the top left.
00:43:47
Speaker
They're just, he's just, they're just in shock really. They're like, wow, why'd they choose that image?
00:43:56
Speaker
I'm sorry, you wanted to make this a little professional. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm serious. No, you guys are great. Inside, inside. It's the recap show. So Gary's never going to make these again when we're done. He actually just sent me the season six images and they are gorgeous. I love them all. I'm very grateful to Gary and we all. We're grateful as well. Especially right now.
00:44:24
Speaker
Geez, you guys are clowns. Anyways, a matter of time was a fun little episode with an interesting twist. And I remember always liking this episode. So question. Did anybody want this character to return somehow? I did. Oh, split vote. What about you, doctor? Why?
00:44:53
Speaker
Why bring him back? Yeah, because you guys like the actor. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Don't bring the character. You figured it out. The character. You figured it out. It did seem like there was potential. Like maybe he'd be, you know, I don't know.
Critique of 'New Ground' Episode
00:45:12
Speaker
I thought it was interesting. I liked the very threatening data that we had at the end of the episode. That was very cool. It's true.
00:45:22
Speaker
Is this shows why he gets all mad at this guy, whatever. And he's like, he gets all threatening, but he gets very cold with his threats. I like that new ground. This was, uh, an episode, uh, where, uh, Alexander, it's, it's an Alexander episode. It's the introduction of Brian Bonsall in the role of Alexander.
00:45:51
Speaker
Can you remember this episode, Sean? Sean, did you watch this? Did you see this episode? It has a four, all right. Not only does it have a four, but I don't remember a single thing about this episode.
00:46:03
Speaker
It was wiped from my memory. No, I think this is the one where this is the one where the grandmother dumps Alexander on the Enterprise. Yes. You know, this this is the kind of crap this shows when Next Generation for me just just started taking a slight turn towards the crappiness.
00:46:26
Speaker
You know, because I don't understand what is the point of giving Worf a kid. I like Alexander as a character, though. It's just that the relationship wasn't well developed. Well, it's fine. There's an amazing story with this time traveling Alexander and shit later on. But that's the only thing that but it's not worth all the seven crappy episodes of Alexander that we get before that.
00:46:55
Speaker
I just think it makes Worf look bad. I really do. He's a cute kid. Look at him. No, yeah, no, yeah. But I think the Worf, as a character, looks terrible whenever you bring Alexander out because... Well, he is the worst father in all of Star Trek. He's the worst father in all of Star Trek.
00:47:13
Speaker
That's comparing him to Sarek, who's also not a great dad. Let's just not really know. Sarek's a terrible father. But Worf is just horrible. So I don't understand why Nick's generation kept insisting on bringing Alexander back. I mean, honestly, I think we would have been better assertive they'd killed him.
00:47:33
Speaker
On his heels, Alexander, it really warped some angst, more angst, and then it would have been good melodramatic material that would have been a lot better than all those crappy Alexander episodes where he's alive.
00:47:49
Speaker
Oddly enough, we spend a lot of time with with family and children this season. So here we go. As I said, this is when Star Trek started going towards the, you know, towards scrap. OK, it is interesting to note that, yeah, it is a little I mean, I still I you know, you know how I feel about search and illustration, but I will concede and say that it is interesting to note that they went on this like weird experiment. What was the point? Like, were they trying to get more
00:48:16
Speaker
Family friendly episodes out there. Was there a critique at the time that Star Trek might have been too dark? Or it wasn't was it not favoring well for because it's time slot was definitely a family Time slot, but maybe they thought more kids were needed Adding kids adding kids to any movie or any television series is never the solution Never and kids agree on that too. It always was
00:48:42
Speaker
Well, as a kid, I didn't like Logan. Logan isn't too bad because she doesn't speak far off the movie. Right. Right. You have to make them act like this, like a few movies that I can really appreciate with a kid the sixth sense.
00:49:00
Speaker
But that's once in a blue moon, yeah. It is. It's like the exception, right? But what about in TV? Are there TV shows where you have a child character where it worked well? Because we know young kids don't seem to work well. Wesley didn't work well. You know what? In defense of Wesley, I think. I like Wesley. Yeah. I like him. I think overall, he wasn't that bad. I think the problem was that,
00:49:29
Speaker
No one I it's very hard to believe that Beverly's his mother sometimes because she just showed them But I think Wes was a character wasn't bad I think the only I mean so far the only realistic parent child depiction on on Star Trek is on Deep Space Nine, I think The relationship between Jake yeah and and and Cisco
00:49:56
Speaker
Is is very is it's it just feels very genuine And uh, and it's easier because they're you know, he's an older kid You know, I think it's it's uh, when you when you when you start them off real young like in the case of alexander well and and Not noggin and rom also have this kind of relationship. Well, yes, but what that's true. Yeah, I think that
00:50:19
Speaker
I think it's set up really nicely and then Jake and Nog becoming best
TNG Ensemble Cast Dynamics
00:50:24
Speaker
friends. So I think that you're right. It's because they actually thought it out, I think, where it's not just throwing a kid in.
00:50:31
Speaker
like it's actually they actually had a story to tell hey not only that but i i think that show just had a better ensemble feel to it which next generation as much as it wants to pretend that it's an ensemble show it really isn't i mean there are there there's by the end of deep space nine it's very easy to argue
00:50:52
Speaker
who are the major characters in the show, because there's so many characters that, I mean, if you just look at the finale, there's so many things, so many subplots that come into play, and there's so many, you know, the way the characters intersect with each other and all that stuff. It's very easy for somebody to make the argument, well, it's this guy, and this guy is a main character, and so and so is a main character. But our next generation,
00:51:21
Speaker
especially by this season, it's very clear that you have two tiers. You've got Picard and Data at the top. And Worf. I would throw Worf at the top. And Worf, that's correct. And Worf right under Data. And then you've got the rest of them.
00:51:39
Speaker
And they just kind of each take turns getting the scraps. And sometimes the scraps are good, and sometimes they're not. But you know. Poor Troy gets the short end of the stick when it comes to scraps. And so then next we go to this episode, Violations, which was a really weird episode. Yeah, well, I've been talking about that. Oh, god. Yeah, OK, this isn't good either.
00:52:09
Speaker
His mind is blown by that makeup, that image. He looks like, he comes at a Blade Runner, right? Right, yeah. Oh.
00:52:23
Speaker
Anyways, we get a somewhat interesting but obvious plot and I don't really know if I have anything else to say about it. The Masterpiece Society, which I thought was a fun interesting episode. This one takes place on an isolated society that
00:52:41
Speaker
that has a perfect balance so that everything's optimized to the best, but unfortunately a natural disaster in the form of an asteroid is headed their way and they have to now deal with the balance in their society being thrown off by several of their members wanting to
00:53:06
Speaker
to leave and Then we also get a little romance for counselor Troy. She gets she gets to have a relationship with the prime minister of their society. I Think I gave this I don't know why I think this is actually a Pretty good example of There's an example of good 80s Star Trek 90 Star Trek
00:53:36
Speaker
It's pretty out there. Yeah, it was pretty cool story. Do you remember this one? Sean, did you? I don't know if you were on that discussion. I wasn't on this discussion, so I don't have a rating for this. I'd have to actually go back and rewatch it if I really wanted to give it a rating.
00:53:50
Speaker
The next episode was conundrum, which I kind of remember our discussion. We were a little not one of those episodes that really stood the test of time per se, because the twist ends up being a little implausible when you really think about it. It's not bad an episode, though. I quite enjoy it. It's too obvious because of that guy. All right.
00:54:11
Speaker
Well, not just that, like the enemy that they're fighting has like significantly lower technology, but yet they're able to make the entire crew of the enterprise forget, including data. I think that was like, this is like, we were like, well, they can't destroy, they need the enterprise to destroy.
00:54:31
Speaker
just to get an advantage weapon wise, but yet they have this crazy other technology that you would think like, wow, they definitely focused on the wrong thing. So that was one of those things that I thought was weird about this episode. Power play.
00:54:57
Speaker
This is the episode where they get possessed, except Riker. This is the prison ghosts on the planet. The prison ghosts. That's right. Did we call them the prison ghosts? I don't think so, but they put themselves in the bodies. So Deanna Troi has that voice again? The one where she's possessed. Does she do the possessed voice again?
00:55:27
Speaker
You are dead. I don't remember the rating for this, but I don't remember it being like terribly. I wasn't too impressed with it.
00:55:38
Speaker
I liked it. We had a we had a nice discussion on ethics. I remember this discussion really well, Sean, because we we talked about a lot about the ethics involved in like. But doctor, this is the episode where Dr. Crusher. I know what this episode is. Yeah. You have anything to say about it? I think the episode where they should have killed Arizona. Yeah, there we go.
00:56:10
Speaker
Oh my God. He could have died to give his, his spine over to his father or something. They could have like,
00:56:24
Speaker
I did this episode with my friend Jared and this episode is the episode I used to introduce him to Star Trek and it ended up being a really lively and interesting discussion where obviously it got a little bit timely and political and we talked a lot about gender.
00:56:41
Speaker
gender and gender reassignment and how society views that and how this episode was originally meant as a discussion point for homosexuality and a way to kind of flip the notions that people had about homosexuality on their heads a little. And I think it was widely met with criticism saying that they should have just addressed homosexuality if that's what they were trying to do instead of hiding it behind this. But ironically,
00:57:10
Speaker
Is that really? Yeah, I do actually remember that. I actually remember that sentiment being expressed in our group even, I think. Oh, really? Okay, I disagree. I think this episode has been done this way because I don't like when Patrick is too on the nose.
00:57:31
Speaker
I prefer it to be hidden in some sort of sci-fi concept, even if the sci-fi concept is like a shitty four-hated ridge, right? Yeah, I agree with that. I do agree with Jonathan Frakes, though, that they should have cast a man, but the producers weren't ballsy enough, and so they went for a woman.
00:57:48
Speaker
But Jonathan Frakes was all for casting a man and he was good with doing the scenes. So they should have done that. They should have gone for that choice. But I have no problem with the fact that they didn't directly address homosexuality. In the same way, I wouldn't want Discovery to specifically single out a head of state. I don't disagree at all.
00:58:11
Speaker
I think you're actually on the nose, but for a different reason. The reason why is because that choice 20 years later actually ends up making this episode super relevant because now this is a discussion point in our society, which is the alien race that was created here is genderless. They are abhorred by the idea of male or female.
00:58:34
Speaker
So the concept of they, the pronoun for they, all that stuff that we're talking about now in society as we struggle to integrate all kinds of notions, including the whole concept of being non-binary into society. Here in Star Trek is the template for that kind of discussion and that kind of interaction way ahead of its time. Do you guys have an opinion on that, by the way?
Social Issues in TNG's Sci-Fi Narratives
00:59:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think my opinion is the same for anything that's like deeply personal about someone's sexuality or their gender or how they feel about what they are inside, which is to each to each of his own. And feel free to explain. Forgive me for not understanding if I'm
00:59:20
Speaker
you know, if I'm interacting with you and I come across as insensitive and explain to me how to not be insensitive. So I think it's like case by case. I think that is important that, you know, governments and states protect everyone's rights. And I think that's really where the struggle comes in is like, how do you do that? Like how specific does the language in legislature need to be? And I think that like, you know, there's very, I think, you know,
00:59:49
Speaker
protection for any ideology is paramount in moving forward as a civilization, so long as that ideology does not hurt another. Bringing it back to the show, I think it's interesting that
01:00:07
Speaker
that wrecker was chosen as the main focus to interact with this issue. I think Jonathan Frakes kind of gets the short end of the stick as the seasons go on. I don't think he gets a choice pick for many episodes going forward. It's almost like he peaks at best of both worlds, the two-parter, as a character. He doesn't grow much beyond
01:00:36
Speaker
beyond that. But an episode like this keeps him relevant to the series. So I thought it was interesting that Riker was used to explore the themes in this episode.
01:00:55
Speaker
cool yeah obviously this this episode can strike a discussion at any point so i think there's value to episodes like that and that's why i thought it was a great way to introduce my friend to star trek he uh he uh is going to keep watching and he's going to come back on in a future episode so my next episode that i give him maybe won't be as controversial and and stark
01:01:18
Speaker
Speaking of controversy, we go now to the first duty, or as we said in our discussion, a few good men in space who ordered the code red.
01:01:38
Speaker
This is the episode that That kind of like humanizes and disgraces Wesleyan shows that he can make really stupid mistakes and you know he's not as as infallible as as We've had prior proof of that but But this is really a big a big deal No, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. Yeah
01:02:04
Speaker
This isn't an episode so much about showing how Wesley isn't, as you say, it's more about like, I don't know, it's weird, like, how do they do this? They do it in a way that it shows you that you're allowed to make mistakes when you're young, but I don't know.
01:02:30
Speaker
This isn't focused like this. This is an episode made for people that are inherently, you know, bad kids in the first place. This is made for kids that are already very good kids. If that makes sense. I guess it's I guess. Yeah, I mean, it's a really good generation. I think the episode works. I know what you're saying.
01:02:57
Speaker
Well, the episode definitely works as a moral tale or what is that? Is that a parable or something like that? Like, well, I guess not yet. So anyways, but as a moral tale, it definitely works to do that because I do remember.
01:03:13
Speaker
That you know watching and thinking like dang Wesley's fucked Yes, they redo a whole year of The Academy it's always gonna be on his permanent record like every Wesley is disgraced basically. I mean it is kind of like a big deal for his character I mean like he was the quintessential straight-a student
01:03:37
Speaker
Ivy League type personality that is revered in society, like the golden boy or girl as those types are often referred to. So I thought it was important when Star Trek
01:03:54
Speaker
this episode to me kind of stood out for that for him and and also like in much the similar way that stories like redemption give depth to characters like Worf this is like I think it definitely obviously a defining moment in in the Wesley character and later on we we get even more interesting moments with him but but certainly up until this point I thought this was a pretty good episode and I loved our discussion because
01:04:22
Speaker
Sean didn't care an ounce about Boothby and later on later on my wife and my mother said that he was a great character and that it was important episode and I was
01:04:40
Speaker
You know what I think is interesting to note is is that this the next generation at this point is still willing to to use a character like Wesley so a semi-regular I think the
01:04:55
Speaker
And I'm of two minds with these semi-regular characters because to certain extent not so much with Wesley because he has a lot of close ties with Picard and in theory with his mother
01:05:13
Speaker
So bringing back a character like Wesley every once in a while helps refresh Those relationships and brings Picard and Crusher to the fore. Um, I wish there had been more semi-regular characters For the other cast You know somebody
01:05:35
Speaker
I mean, Berkeley is a good example. Berkeley obviously has close ties with Geordie, working in engineering. But I would have liked to have seen something
01:05:47
Speaker
more like Barkley, more like Wesley, where we get these semi-regulars that come back to the show and they help. Obviously, they're the focus of the episode, but they also bring supporting characters to the main focus as well with them. And in the case of Wesley, you would think that his mom would have
01:06:14
Speaker
had more to do during Wesley episodes. But again, it's almost like Picard is the parent. And in that episode one, the bridge adopts Wesley Crusher, right?
01:06:32
Speaker
Yeah i get the sense that it's the bridge that's gonna be taken care of them and and then in season two crushes crushes like off. So you really get the sense that he's a child of the crew not a child of barely crush. Yeah but then i'm not a fan of barely crush as a character so i'm not want to speak too much on this.
01:06:51
Speaker
Well, I mean, I think that's a genuine criticism of Beverly Crusher. Again, it doesn't make her look like a really good mom. She doesn't seem to take much. The show never wrote many scenes between mother and son.
Wesley Crusher's Character Growth
01:07:15
Speaker
uh that that fleshed out that relationship i think uh i mean it was you know i think it was a wasted wasted opportunity but uh anyways moving on next episode moving on to the perfect mate which uh you were not there for this discussion i don't think were you there doctor no i missed fomka jensen and uh the great um dr here yes
01:07:46
Speaker
I missed you. I missed you on this episode because when I revered them, Sean gave no fucks. He he could for for Fumka Johnson. Yes. I had to I had to ask him to imagine his wife in her place for him to get into the fantasy. Is she considered is she considered a very a very hot woman in the United States? Is she considered? Yeah, everywhere. Not just that.
01:08:12
Speaker
She was. She was. Not anymore. I mean, she was. Oh, my. She was, yes. Fonka still got it. But anyways, worldwide, Sean. Worldwide. Have you have you not seen GoldenEye? A long time. A long time ago. It doesn't count. So my mother watched it and I watched it as a kid, so I wouldn't remember it correctly. You need to rewatch it and learn to appreciate Xena on a top. OK. I'll maybe do a James Bond rewatch someday. There we go. We should do that on Starfleet Boy.
01:08:43
Speaker
But this was a great episode from the perspective of just the chemistry was really good between the two of them. And of course, we get more of that chemistry in a different light in the X-Men films between Patrick Stewart and. I didn't realize that. That's right. That's right. And that's Professor X. That's right. It's correct. And whatever.
01:09:11
Speaker
wait what's that is the the rating is still like a three but whatever oh wow i i rated it much higher what did you give it sean i can't remember i gave it a three yeah it's a three i mean it's it's it's not a good episode at all no it isn't it isn't okay it's a really crappy episode
01:09:28
Speaker
Speaking of crappy episodes, this is a legendary friend, definitely fits that. And again, more of- There is someone in the, wow. There is someone who commented on our episode discussion that said they actually liked the episode of where we're sad. I think that's Chris Collins, shout out. What episode is this? You don't want to know, Sean.
01:09:56
Speaker
The Enterprise is stuck in a nebula with these red string-like filaments and this alien that originally looks like a ball of energy turns into this girl and sees the Enterprise and humanity from the perspective of a child and thinks that humans are actually oppressors and awful and she threatens to kill everyone on the ship until Picard explains.
01:10:28
Speaker
The solution is that the card has to explain to her that, oh, you materialized as a child. So that's why you're seeing things from that perspective. But I promise you, we love our children. And then that's, I don't know, it's something like that. Go away. I'm going to quote now from the book. It's worth quoting once again.
01:10:53
Speaker
This is, once again, Field Guide to the Aliens of Star Trek Next Generation by Joshua Chapman, age four. These are some energy balls. These aliens are some energy balls, but they can take the shape of people if they want to. Also, they can read people's minds somehow if they fly into someone's head. It seems like whenever there is an alien made out of energy on this show, they're always ball shaped.
01:11:24
Speaker
one of them turns into the imaginary friend of a girl and she is pretty much the worst person alive in Star Trek. She's manipulative, bitchy, and vindictive. Everyone in the Enterprise is ready to forgive her, even though she summons a bunch of other energy balls to murder them. But fuck that.
Themes in 'iBorg' Episode
01:11:46
Speaker
I know what it is like to have someone treat you this way and you don't forgive them It is so fucking ridiculous how much this alien reminds me of my mom
01:11:59
Speaker
I think so Burnham wasn't a character yet at that point. Oh my God. All right, iBorg is one of my favorite episodes ever. And we learned on Starfleet Boy that the reason is, is I had a crush on Hugh the Borg. You had a crush on Hugh the Borg? Oh my God. Which was taboo to talk about at the time. It was very taboo to do that. The only thing taboo is...
01:12:28
Speaker
The only thing taboo is to say that this episode is good. I loved it. I thought it was a good episode. And it's it holds up.
01:12:42
Speaker
but I'm not wrong actually it is a fan favorite and Hugh the Borg is a character that apparently many young Starfleet boys and girls out there could relate to for some reason and I think it has to do with just
01:12:59
Speaker
individuality and how at that age is especially a time when humans start to solidify their ideas of themselves as individuals. The next phase, which was the episode where Jordy and Ro initially think they're dead, but it turns out they're out of phase just by a little bit, enough to not be able to see. Why is he laughing? Why is he laughing?
01:13:26
Speaker
I just love the secondary image of these guys. It's like the Quijus Quintina scene back there. This is great. They're just happy that we're nearing the end of the season. I remember in our discussion, we were like, yay.
01:13:48
Speaker
I remember in our discussion. We we really liked this episode Discussions so I like what did you give it? I gave it. I don't give a 7.5. I think it's a good episode. Oh my god No, this is this is like a like a four Come on. No, come on It's a real waste that I agree with it's an interesting It's in a rowan, but I do like the dynamic between her and Jordy
01:14:16
Speaker
He's a very scientific method, and she's got these boring Bichon traditions, because Bichon's are boring, we established that. We come at last to the Inner Light, which was just around the corner as far as we're concerned. We were just on that discussion, and I think we all love this episode. Think of it as iconic. I was surprised by the Doctor's rating being lower than a 10. You now have a chance, Doctor, to... No! What? No! I don't think so.
01:14:45
Speaker
The rating that I gave it is the rating that I, I think I gave it what, like a, I think I gave it an eight, right? Yes. Yeah. It's a fine showcase for Patrick Stewart's acting,
Acclaim for 'The Inner Light'
01:15:00
Speaker
but, um,
01:15:02
Speaker
It's not an episode that I'm going to jump at. Oh my God, the inner light is on. Let me watch it. It's not, it really isn't. It's not. It is that for me. So, so interesting, you know.
01:15:17
Speaker
and what you want from Star Trek. I want a few more phaser battles. I give it a nine though, because I think it's really like it really within the context of TNG. It is really one of the best episodes of Star Trek. We did discuss about the fact that like you can't just random show it to someone.
01:15:33
Speaker
Yeah. And we came up with some interesting theories about the the the Catanians and and how they may have sent out many probes and how there might be artifacts and they could all form a orchestra coming together, which I know is right. Yeah. Times Arrow, part one. We do want some shenanigans.
01:15:54
Speaker
We didn't have the doctor on this episode. We had a very lively discussion, Sean and I, on this one. And we both really liked it, if I recall correctly, Sean. I better recall correctly. It was just like last week that we talked about it. That was absolute shit. No, I liked it. I don't know how someone could not like Time Zero Reparts 1 and 2. I think it's a great time travel story.
01:16:14
Speaker
And be sure to tune in to time zero discussion part two. Learn the answer to that. Oh, wow. OK. Anyway, so talking about part one specifically, I think it's a great introduction to this story and I think it's a great into the season. That's an interesting new dynamic for Guinan. What was that? The strongest of seasons, isn't it?
01:16:39
Speaker
season five. Yeah, I mean, actually looking back on it, I would say that the season is a lot weaker than I remembered it being. It's got the inner light, it's got Darmok, it's got those standout episodes, but then the rest of it is kind of just what, kids?
01:16:55
Speaker
Well, before we talk about the whole season, doctor, a quick chime in on times arrow part one, since you were not at that discussion, but I know you wanted to be a part of it. So like, what did you what did you have to say about that episode that if you had been, I'll just say quickly, I do enjoy the premise with those aliens.
01:17:16
Speaker
Enjoyed it they found the dividends. Yeah, I think that that's the the setup for them is very impressive and I really like to look and and they're very creepy and they They actually remind me of elements from from Twin Peaks, you know for people who watch Twin Peaks You know the evil spirits that are also Hmm
01:17:45
Speaker
spoilers spoilers oh sorry uh but but you know it's it reminded me a lot of that and um i mean it does obviously it's got one of the best hooks in terms of of a mystery you know finding data's head there but um i i i thought mark twain was a bit overused i i'm not a big fan of
01:18:11
Speaker
of using historical characters in situations where then you have to wonder, well, why didn't Mark Twain ever mention that he ran into aliens in his letters? Unless the show can come up with a
01:18:32
Speaker
Like Doctor Who, well, the old Doctor Who would come up with a clever way to say, well, why didn't so and so never write that the Doctor was there or something like that. But I don't think Star Trek does a very good job of explaining why Mark Twain
01:18:48
Speaker
I have a similar issue, but not for the same reasons. I don't like the fact that they use Mark Twain. It's fun to have Mark Twain, but I would have preferred that they not use it, but not so much because he never mentioned it, more because I feel like when they use historical characters, they become parodies of the historical characters rather than actually being them.
01:19:08
Speaker
yeah caricature yeah yeah so when you you when you bring in um like uh actual scientists or actual people from today and have them cameo as like people from the past like they cameo themselves as if they were from the past that works
01:19:24
Speaker
There's definitely times where it's done really well because I can think of specifically in Doctor Who, the Charles Dickens episode relates because it sets up- I mentioned the classic show, not the new show.
01:19:42
Speaker
Oh, OK. But but what I will say is that that episode stands out to me as as a case where a historical figure works because, A, the portrayal is pretty good by the actor, Darn it, whose name I can't remember, but he's a cherished actor in the Shakespearean world and.
01:20:03
Speaker
also because it kind of ties right into the mystery of Edmund Rude which is Dickens' last novel and there's a lot of cool references and it's conceivable that Dickens would have left out the things because you know the events because but taken like little bits of them and put them into A Christmas Carol and other things you know
01:20:28
Speaker
throughout his later works because he was obsessed with like kind of the supernatural and things like that, especially in Edmond Drude. But anyways, it works and it doesn't work sometimes. Here, I do have to agree that like, I like the actor who, the way he portrayed Mark Twain as kind of like a rascally, you know, figure who's,
01:20:52
Speaker
who's hard-headed but also mischievous. And you definitely see him in his prominence here. He's definitely famous at this point and that kind of thing. But I do agree that it is kind of a stretch to imagine that it didn't have an effect on him and that he wouldn't mention such a thing.
01:21:22
Speaker
Yeah. So the season is a whole.
Strengths and Weaknesses of TNG Season 5
01:21:29
Speaker
Um, I think, yeah, we're already starting to say that I, it doesn't, it's, it's a bit weaker, I think, than, than the, certainly than the third or the fourth, I think. And, um, I think it's, it's really done in by a glut of episodes that focus on, on, on children.
01:21:51
Speaker
young children. It's got the standout episodes, but I can't help but think that
01:22:04
Speaker
This this I'll always remember this season is the season that kind of killed the Borg for me until first contact the movie That's kind of a and in a way it kind of killed the Romulans for me, too They have the lowest like the law and Borg story arc later on though, but but they lose some of the menace with Racers and every franchise does this to every alien they ever create they humanize them
01:22:35
Speaker
But so early, I mean, the Borg were so menacing just in their last, we've really only had two appearances of the Borg, the two-parter and then their first appearance. And this is the third, in the third appearance, we're going to say, okay, guys, we're done with the menace. We're done with them being just the perfect villains for Star Trek. Let's humanize them. It's hard for me to forgive.
01:23:03
Speaker
And it wasn't until First Contact that they kind of gained that back and reclaimed the title of really the best villain's next generation ever had.
01:23:19
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good point. I still like it. I still like Hugh. I still think that it doesn't humanize the Borg. It actually makes them worse, in my opinion, because there's some evidence that Hugh was one of these baby Borg that we see in the best of both worlds.
01:23:38
Speaker
And it just makes me feel like inside of this, it would be more humanizing if they were truly a collective, but the fact that you could break away from that collective and then find your individuality, that there is in fact a soul inside this being that may want something more than to be part of this collective consciousness.
01:24:03
Speaker
tells me that they're actually worse than I thought they were. I will say that yes, that's kind of a stretch. That's definitely using some head cannon, if you will. But that's just the way I see it, the perspective that I see it from.
01:24:26
Speaker
And I love Hugh. Hugh the Borg is a cool character. Comparatively, I know that, like, so we talk about this season, technically these first nine hadn't come out yet, but if you were to compare this to the episode with a humanizer Jim Hindar kid, they find a Jim Hindar baby, grows up,
01:24:45
Speaker
That's a much better example of this race cannot be reasoned with or this species is a true threat that we cannot deal with in the Federation of ways because the idea is the Federation of Staff did always try to find them.
01:25:00
Speaker
an amicable way of dealing with things, a diplomatic way, but then the gym at art's proven that you cannot, because they're literally bred to kill. And if they're not on the countryside white, they kill even more, and they kill even more sporadically. And that's a better example than having this borg, because then ultimately it shows that you can kind of fix the borg. And then they have this, what, they seem like a virus in them? They try to hack the collective?
01:25:28
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting that in our discussion of the season, we focus so much on this one episode. It's obviously the episode. It's one of the great sins of the season. I mean, really.
01:25:43
Speaker
I mean, I mean the all the bad episodes is very easy to for I mean to just forget But this is something this is a sin of the season that continues to infect the series Right And then the other great sin I think is is
01:26:10
Speaker
You know, I'm probably gonna be alone in this but the Romulans I think You know, I've been saying since season one The Romulan menace the Romulan menace. Oh, it's coming. It's coming. There's a buildup and they they you know, you get these episodes it feels like we're gonna get this great confrontation with the Romulans at last and really
01:26:32
Speaker
This is it for the Romulans. That is classic tradition though because they do this whole thing with the Klingons as well in the original series but nothing nothing ever happens with the Klingons. But you know what with the Klingons I'll say this Star Trek 3 kind of felt you know you had okay we get a Klingon falling off a cliff into lava and like okay we get all that but I mean you're talking about the movies if we talk about the series specifically the shows then in the three seasons of the original series
01:27:02
Speaker
Yeah, there's nothing huge for the Klingons. TNG doesn't do anything big with, I mean, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep Space Nine, Deep
01:27:31
Speaker
you know, the animated series and TNG and he is a hardened, you know, an ardent believer in diplomacy and like the idea that like you can have a great story without that kind of like shoot them up.
01:27:50
Speaker
Conflict even though there is a lot of shoot him up for entertainment value in both you know, both of these Star Trek series You know and you can't avoid that but he you know, he is he is trying to contend always and I think that the people
01:28:05
Speaker
connected with TNG are kind of like, in a way, either forced to, or, you know, choosing to kind of comply with this vision. And so that's something that we see over and over. So it does make sense that the Romulans never become a big threat. We don't get those big threats and the big payoff of a war until Deep Space Nine. Because of that, I think like that might be, you know, one of the reasons.
01:28:33
Speaker
Well, I mean, it was never planned that way, but I see something horrible, but I kind of feel like Gene Roddenberry had an amazing vision and he had like a creativity that enabled him to create like the world and the universe of Star Trek, but he maybe wasn't like the best storyteller.
01:28:53
Speaker
That's something that tends to, you know, that's something that, and it's interesting that you would say that because that comes up a lot for George Lucas as well. Like I feel like a lot of people have that same sort of notion or critique. And what I, I guess the only like kind of defense for both of them that I would say is that like the thing is, is that like, yeah, maybe now people
01:29:16
Speaker
in more exciting ways, but they can't tell the story quite like the creators do. And Star Trek and Star Wars are both beloved because of the original versions of them. So Gene Rodman created Star Trek and it may not be like the Star Trek that's exciting today,
01:29:35
Speaker
But it was definitely something that like caught everyone's attention and I can't help it. I think anyone who goes back and watches the original series will eventually like see the heart of it, which is what, you know, the heart of the story, which is like this idea that humanity can become.
01:29:51
Speaker
the best version of itself, the way that we think that it's impossible to reach. Star Trek tries to say, no, it's actually not impossible to reach. You can reach that. Society will reach that. And I think that that's something that Star Trek doesn't say as much anymore. It's definitely the underlying message. But newer Star Trek focuses more on conflict in war and grander scales. And that started because of D-Space 9.
Challenges in Star Trek Discovery's First Season
01:30:21
Speaker
I wouldn't blame Deep Space Nine for what Discovery is doing. I'm not blaming it. I think it's great. I'm just saying that Star Trek Discovery is finding its footing and its first season was, I would say that if I were
01:30:38
Speaker
you know to rank it like it's the last it's my least favorite uh series right now but i still like it i still think it's it's worth watching and i'm excited about season two i think that it can evolve into a better show but i do and and you guys know this like i've said this into the ground but like it's handicap is something that has to do with its setting and it's it's unfortunate that they didn't go forward but that's why the picard show is so exciting
01:31:02
Speaker
The problem with discovery as it stands is that instead of showing us the best of humanity, they keep telling us that they're the best of humanity.
01:31:18
Speaker
I keep saying that we are this, we do this, we act this way, we're good because of this, but none of their characters reflect that. That's the issue. Never did Jordy say he was the best engineer, never did he say he was an amazing person, but by the end of the series, you love the character, you know how good he is as an engineer, and you know how good he is as a person, and it's the same thing for every character in all of Star Trek.
01:31:44
Speaker
Discovery keep on insisting we are Starfleet. We are this, we are that, but you don't show it. I agree with that. But then that's not a problem of discovery in it. It's a problem of the times that we live in. And it's a problem of a lot of franchises that exist now. In a way, Star Trek, like every show, every Star Trek show kind of reflects the problems of their own times. It's just that the problems that we have today annoy me more, I think, than the problems of before. But
01:32:14
Speaker
Well, that's very personal. But I would say that, like, again, I think that the ultimate thing is is that if Star Trek Discovery were addressing these same issues, but if the show was set in the future, like 100 years after TNG, I think the show would be a lot more well received. I think the biggest problem is this
01:32:33
Speaker
constant it's it gives you fatigue it's this constant like how does this fit into what i already know and granted there are a lot of new fans that don't have that problem that don't that don't know that haven't seen like every basically everything of star trek and i definitely haven't seen all of voyager and all of uh
01:32:53
Speaker
I'm catching up finally but with just the Star Trek that I know it's still like you know with just the Star Trek kind of like story that I understand it's a hard time
01:33:05
Speaker
always constantly having to worry about, well, how does this fit in? I don't understand this. Those are not the things that you want to think about when you're watching entertainment. I think you really do want to discover new things, and that's a handicap for discovery because if you have seen anything before discovery of Star Trek, you're constantly wondering, well, how does this fit in? It's just like a handicap.
Missed Opportunities in TNG
01:33:27
Speaker
Well, let me just bring it back briefly to season five. What elements of this season, whether they're characters or a race that we saw or something along those lines, what elements from this season
01:33:49
Speaker
That you know we saw for the first time in this season. Do you wish? Had shown up again in later seasons and that did not you know for me? I always give the example and I know again I'm alone in this but I always thought Nagilum should have shown up again On another episode. I always thought that would did some I don't know why I just think that I mean of all the things why not Nagilum, but is there any character or or a planet or something that you guys
01:34:19
Speaker
Crystal identity, I think, because if you take the time, if you take the time to give us a second one, then you've already like once once is all right.
01:34:31
Speaker
twice but without justifying it is kind of a waste of time. But if you bring it back a third time but then do like a really interesting story with it with like this character or this beast kind of explain it try to try to justify its presence or just try to like show us the impact that this thing is that this thing has right. Well they killed the crystalline entity so you're saying they shouldn't have killed it in the episode.
01:34:55
Speaker
right or second one or whatever I don't know like maybe the maybe another one yeah maybe there's another species like uh more of them that come in they're mad because you kill them or whatever right well just I don't know fucking is it a Romulan weapon boom that's what Picard always thinks they could have done something more with that because they already showed it twice and this like ultimately it's not that useful because it's just an episode about this woman beefing data and
01:35:33
Speaker
It is. That's right.
Speculating on Guinan's Role
01:35:37
Speaker
For me, I think that I wish that there was more, and again, not something that this can't be a real critique of TNG because I think it was cutting edge for the time that it was there. But I do wish that the season finale was something that
01:35:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I totally forgot that she was actually just like, she's just like, obsessed with her death.
01:36:01
Speaker
there was more connective to you throughout the season. I wish there was more clues hidden throughout the season because I think that would have been an amazing way to tell a story. But again, not something that could have been done. So the episode that I would have liked to have seen fleshed out, but in the opposite direction, was Time's Arrow. I think that it would have made the season finale even stronger. And Guinan's an interesting character to me, and I think that she's a missed opportunity as well. I think it is cool to keep her
01:36:31
Speaker
as a mystery. It made me realize and I'm wondering if Gaiden is kind of like an original concept that sprouted forth here in TNG but her story and like the way she meets Picard and like you know out of time or out of sequence reminds me of another
01:36:51
Speaker
relationship on Doctor Who that they do in the in the newer Doctor Who and that's the character of River Song. I thought that there was like a similarity to that but they don't flesh out at all. It's just that we're we're made to understand that Guinan's been waiting all this time to mention to Picard like you need to go down to this away mission because that's the way that that you meet me which is pretty fascinating you know.
01:37:15
Speaker
I don't know if you guys covered this in your time zero discussion, but what do you guys do you guys think there's a A chance or would you guys want to see whoopi Goldberg? Reprise her role as Guinan for all? Yes. Yeah, do you think there's room? I mean do you think there's tear there's ground to cover in this in this relationship? I think so I think Guinan we talked we didn't talk about having Guinan on old man Picard we talked about having a young Guinan and
01:37:44
Speaker
But like a really young Guinan like before the time we meet her and times that this is like way in the past Because it would be easier to like recast a younger actress But then it is I mean it's hard to recast what we go but you know But well, we also talked about how you could just do the CG like Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas But but you could have gotten on discovery like a show that's that's hmm
01:38:11
Speaker
Why not? Interesting. They do it on one episode in Westworld for something Hopkins, but then that was like one episode. You can't do it on a regular bit. I think it's just too expensive at this point. Well, certainly for one episode, Guinan can be in Discovery and look like Whoopi Goldberg of the time, you know, approximate what Whoopi Goldberg kind of look like around that time and they can do it.
01:38:37
Speaker
Yeah, Guinan is the kind of character that, not just in this season, but overall, I think, could have been a more, I would have liked to see more Guinan. And Elornians seem interesting species that was so advanced already in a time when humans were still using horse and buggy, right? So it's an interesting concept. This is going to be a rare thing for me to say about time zero.
01:39:04
Speaker
a compliment. I actually think that Time's Arrow would have been, I think I would have appreciated Time's Arrow better if the menace of the, I forget what the name of the aliens are. The Davidians. Davidians. I think of the Davidians had proven to be more of a threat in future episodes.
01:39:28
Speaker
I would have forgiven the lapses and logic and storytelling in Time's Arrow. I think they're a very interesting villain, that race, but at times the episode's over.
01:39:49
Speaker
The day everyone's forgotten about
Final Thoughts and Ratings for Season 5
01:39:51
Speaker
him already. I mean they just there was a really interesting premise for for an alien race and I remember at the time thinking okay we lost the Borg, but We're gonna get this now and this didn't go anywhere Well, they could they could use it for the season so they end redemption part two in episode one But then they could have introduced Data's head in episode two
01:40:18
Speaker
They could have said, like, this is episode hit. And then you could have had, like, an ongoing kind of- Right, because it would have been cool. That's exactly it. Like, in this episode, in time zero, Data's, like, trying to convince the crew, like, there's nothing to be worried about. So, like, it would have been cool if they found- Every time there's an away machine, you're scared. I think it would have created- You're right. I think it would have created a great tension and anxiety. And then you have the-
01:40:45
Speaker
the time thing at the end like at the end of the season he goes back in time and you're like oh my god
01:40:50
Speaker
This is what happens, right? And then you would have had that story arc go 25 seasons. Then TV wasn't made that way. Well, the other thing would have been cool is like they find it causes them to start researching this. And then they find out about these weird disappearances that occurred in mass of humans around that time period. And then Guinan's like, oh, I remember Earth and that. There could have been a lot of cool
01:41:15
Speaker
thing. But anyways, let's start wrapping it up. Let's give our ratings for season five. I will start. I'm going to give this season a six because the episodes that are really strong do, I think, elevate the season above a five. But it did have like an unusual amount of episodes that I think that I just didn't connect to or see.
01:41:46
Speaker
I didn't realize we rated the seasons as well. We did. We had been. Really? Okay. Yes. Okay. I give it a five. Okay. I'm going to give it a five as well.
01:42:04
Speaker
No, I'm going to give it, I'm going to give it a five. I don't know. Fuck. It's five. Well, it's an average six, but it has six, but the bad and the good kind of. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to give it a 5.5 because it does have those like symbolic episodes. Right. Okay.
01:42:23
Speaker
5.5. I should go back and like watch the episodes that I missed and then rate them and then I could actually do like an actual average for my season. Oh, they're ready. I won't do that. There's too much shit to watch.
01:42:38
Speaker
Season five gets an average of about, we'll say 5.7. My six pulls up the rating just a little bit. Always amuses me. But anyways, I think, you know, above, slightly above average.
Expressions of Gratitude and Future Anticipations
01:42:58
Speaker
Let's see how season six does.
01:43:02
Speaker
Gentlemen, it has been wonderful to have you on. Thank you, Gary. I love showing your artwork off in these recap episodes. It's a nice little tradition and it reminds me how wonderful you are. I'm excited about using your images for season six and live long and prosper. And thank you to everyone who's listening and tuning in and we'll see you next time.