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With Tracy Cotterell
87 Plays3 years ago
Jesus didn't spend his life in church, he ministered in the real world. How can we think about life with Jesus as an adventure in the real world, not just someone we meet in church? Today's guest Tracy Cotterell speaks to Andy and (filling in for Kristi) Gavin from Solas. She encourages us to identify our primary role as God's child, participating in the Father's business to reach the world.
Tracy Cotterell is a former advertising planning director and served the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity for sixteen years, latterly as Managing Director. She has degrees in theology from London School of Theology and Redcliffe College, and is completing her doctoral programme at Portland Seminary in the USA. Tracy is LICC’s Senior Mission Associate, a Board Director of the Evangelical Alliance, and engaged in the development of disciple-making models for today’s culture. Her latest publication is Mark: Living the Way of Jesus in the World, the final title in LICC’s Gateway Seven Series of Bible Studies of which she is also series editor. Tracy is married to John, and they have three adult children.
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Transcript
Introduction and Call to Action
00:00:00
Speaker
Thanks for listening to pep talk if you're enjoying the podcast There's one way you can really help us out and that's by going to your podcast provider whether that's the iTunes Store or Google Play or Spotify wherever it is you get your podcasts from and Rating the show and if your podcast provider gives you the opportunity also leaving a brief review Because that helps other people find pep talk and get plugged into all the great resources that we have here for you Thank you so much
Meet the Hosts and Guest
00:00:35
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from the Solas Centre for Public Christianity, all the way up in Bonny Dundee. And I'm joined actually today, not joined by my usual partner in crime, Christy Mayer, but I'm joined by Gavin Matthews, also from Solas. Gavin, welcome to Pep Talk. Why are you in the other hot seat?
00:00:55
Speaker
Christy is currently delivering a lecture on philosophy somewhere in North London. So I can only apologize for not being Christy. It's simply no excuse. But we have an exciting guest joining us today. I'm absolutely thrilled that we have Tracy Cottrell joining us. Tracy, welcome to pep talk.
Tracy's Work and New Book
00:01:12
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here too. Now, Tracy, like so many of our guests, wears many, many, many, many hats. But perhaps the main one that you wear is you work for the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity, LICC. That's right. You and I also knew each other. Was it we were saying 20 years ago we studied theology? Yeah. It is 20 years ago. Tracy was a teenage prodigy. I just stressed that. She didn't have to.
00:01:41
Speaker
You're also an author and one of the books that you've recently written that's come out through through LCC is this six session Bible study on Mark which is subtitled living the way of Jesus in the world. That is a really intriguing subtitle Tracy living the way of Jesus in the world. What is that all about?
Living Faith in Everyday Life
00:02:02
Speaker
Well, I mean, the book is all about Jesus, of course, because it's all about the account that Mark gives us of this extraordinary person, Jesus Christ. But of course, Jesus is, you know, wasn't tucked away in a corner somewhere in the synagogue all his life, who's out there in the world living out his calling.
00:02:24
Speaker
and drawing people to himself. And of course, that's essentially this wonderful adventure that we're called to also to follow Jesus, to learn to live his ways in our world today. So living the way Jesus in the world is essentially the invitation, isn't it? And how we learn what that's like and how to live it out, that's the lifelong adventure that we're all embarked on together.
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah, so Mark's Gospel, the amazing person of Jesus and what do we learn from the way that Mark gives us that insight into Jesus and who he is, what he came to do and how he lives and what all the implications that are for our everyday lives, not just our Sunday lives, but our Monday to Sunday lives.
00:03:15
Speaker
And that book is available through LICC directly. Would that be the best place to get hold of that? Yeah, you can get it through LICC or IVPs, published by IVPs on Amazon. But yeah, go straight to LICC because they got some great deals on book purchases and things like that. And we'll put a link in the show notes as well.
00:03:36
Speaker
Fantastic. Lots of people will be aware of LICC and for many people that immediately makes them think of sort of Christianity in the workplace, Christianity in the secular world, unlocking the gospel from being trapped in church-based events and talking about what the Christian witness in the secular world
Integrating Faith Beyond Evangelism
00:03:53
Speaker
is like. Is that still very much at the heart of what your work is and what LICC are about?
00:03:58
Speaker
Well, it's very much at the heart of it, but it's not the only area of what the elasticity is involved in. In the sense, being a Christian in a secular workplace context is a really good example of what it means to answer the question, well, where has God has placed you? And so many people, of course, are placed in a secular workplace context and for a long time over many years.
00:04:27
Speaker
So what an exciting opportunity to learn to live the way of Jesus in that context. But of course, people retire or people live other kinds of lives, you know, they volunteer or they're caring for elderly parents or, you know, we've got a whole life, haven't we, where we live out our lives in lots of different places. So LCC, in a sense, embraces all of our, what we might call our front lines,
00:04:56
Speaker
So where we work, of course, but where we live and where we play and where we create, where we volunteer and where we study. So wherever we are, if you like, there's an opportunity to be God's person there, God's man, a woman or child, as well, of course, in school for his purposes. And of course, those purposes are rich and vast and exciting. So this is an adventure we're called to live with Jesus in the world.
00:05:26
Speaker
I think sometimes, I love the way you frame that trait, I think sometimes we can have this tendency to privatise our faith. Faith is what happens on Sunday, it's the church thing, and then the rest of the time we have our work life or our social life or our school life.
00:05:44
Speaker
What are some of the things that maybe you've, you've learned, perhaps even personally, but how do we break some of those barriers down? How do we start, you know, as you put it in the title of the book, living Jesus in the world, making sure he's not just stuck in the four walls of our Sunday Christianity and getting him into the, every day for people perhaps listening to this thinking, yeah, that's a challenge. I need to think about that. How do, how do we start? Sometimes it could feel quite daunting. I think for folks, what
Identity and Purpose as Children of God
00:06:05
Speaker
are the, what perhaps the first steps? I think, you know, the first steps is to say, well, who am I really?
00:06:15
Speaker
You know, and if I'm my core identity, I am a son or a daughter of the king of the universe. You know, we pray that prayer, don't we? We pray the Lord's prayer so frequently. And, you know, what that prayer is, is a prayer for all kinds of things, you know, your will be done on earth as in heaven, your kingdom come and all those things. And in a sense, we're praying for regime change, aren't we? And when we pray to God, our Father,
00:06:45
Speaker
We're not only declaring whose we are, but we're also saying, well, actually we're drawing to the father's business and the father's business is cosmic. It's huge. You know, Jesus is Lord of all. So why wouldn't that mean Lord of my bit of his world as well and my relationships?
00:07:09
Speaker
my work, my family, my... So in a sense, I think it does, the starting point to say is really to say, who am I? And to know that actually I am the beloved daughter, I am the beloved son, my heavenly father. And that makes all the difference. And therefore, if I'm called to the father's business, of course, that is without end, if you like, without end.
Real-life Faith Stories
00:07:35
Speaker
And you're meeting and interacting with people that are engaged in this kind of stuff all the time. I know you're involved with people who are sharing their faith at work and universities and all sorts of different contexts. Could you maybe tell us a couple of stories of people that you know who have been putting some of this into practice, who know what it means to be the beloved son or daughter of God in their work and what it means that they are a faithful, non-privatized Christian, living their faith and bringing Jesus to the context that they're placed in.
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think, can I tell you two stories, actually, I'll tell you a work story and then I'll tell you a story of somebody who's not in a paid role because I think that's as significant as being in a paid role. So I have a couple of friends who happen both to be actors.
00:08:25
Speaker
Well, it's not been an easy time, has it, over the last couple of years to be in that kind of field. And they've really struggled in terms of work and all kinds of things. So number one, do they still know that actually they're called to steward the gifts that God has given them? Well, yes, they do. And so part of their own discipleship, if you feel like, is to stay faithful, to say, okay, I'm not working, I'm not on the stage. Can you imagine?
00:08:53
Speaker
You know, the thing that brings you one of the things that brings you greatest joy and you're prevented from doing it. You know, it's just hard, isn't it? So in a sense, I've just watched these these lovely, lovely people go in a sense deeper into, well, who am I really? Well, I am first and foremost a child of God.
00:09:13
Speaker
and therefore this is not going well for me at the moment, but I'm going to trust my Heavenly Father. So that's been a really exciting thing. Now, of course, life is opening up for them. And I'm starting to hear them talk about things like, you know, what sort of conversations they're trying to have with people in the dressing room while they're waiting in between the scenes and they go on stage and whatnot. And the fact that, you know, if you're in a dressing room and you're all in your underwear or getting changed, it's a very intimate context, isn't it?
00:09:44
Speaker
And it's somehow a place where people will open up and share things that are going on in their lives. And when you pray with this couple and you hear how they pray for the people that they're gonna be on stage with or on tour with or whatever, and you hear their heart for them to come to know Jesus and their heart that these people flourish and their sense of offering themselves
00:10:11
Speaker
in that context to God for however he would choose to use them. I think that is so beautiful, so beautiful. The other story that I just
00:10:24
Speaker
kind of comes to mind. It's actually a story that I heard a long time ago actually and it was a colleague of mine from LICC and he was up with a church in the northeast of England and helping us et cetera and he went to a small group or a very ordinary house group in the evening
00:10:46
Speaker
And they were going around the room asking each other, well, you know, what do you what do you do and how's God using you? And it came to this lovely older lady. And she said, oh, I don't really do anything. I'm just I'm a grandma and I look after my husband and I, you know, my grandkids come over on Sunday and, you know, I don't you know, I'm insignificant essentially is what she said.
00:11:08
Speaker
And they started to ask about her grandchildren. It turned out, they got this picture of, well, these 10-year-old kids, but actually one of them was a granddaughter of 23. She said, oh, yes, she said, she always asked me, you know, what happened in church that morning? What did the vicar talk about? And she recounts the sermon and she talks about Jesus and God and whatever, all these things.
00:11:36
Speaker
And you suddenly realize, and the vicar happened to be in there, and he says, you suddenly realize he's not preaching to a small group of elderly people. He's preaching to them and people like her 23-year-old granddaughter who's going to be getting his sermon secondhand later on in the day. And you suddenly realize, number one, she had no sense of her significance in God's purposes in the life of her family.
00:12:01
Speaker
And actually the thinker had sort of not quite grasped the significance of what was happened in a gathered context that would impact a scattered context later on in the day. So I think one of the things that I've learned over the years is that there is a lack of real attentiveness, an awareness, a sense that
00:12:24
Speaker
This is an honorable, dignified calling of significance that every single one of us is called to, whoever we are. We don't need to be big and important or anything. We just need to be available. And actually God is already working through people. We don't always have to start something new. We just have to notice what he's doing already.
00:12:49
Speaker
A lot of wisdom in there, Tracy. Thank you. I think the other thing that's helpful in there that I remember somebody years ago said, and I wish I could remember who said this, because it's a lovely idea, a lovely quote, is the fact that every one of us, particularly in a more secular post-Christian culture, probably every Christian has people in their lives who they may potentially be the only Christian they know.
00:13:12
Speaker
So that sphere of influence is incredible. Say whether it's a grandchild or an ex-door neighbour or just a friend you play dance with down the pub or a colleague or whatever, and to just say be prayerfully asking the Lord to draw those people to your attention. Don't let you look for new opportunities, look for the ones around your nose. But something you said there interested me actually,
Supporting Faith in Secular Spaces
00:13:33
Speaker
you talked about the vicar.
00:13:35
Speaker
who hadn't fully tweaked that he had his immediate congregation and his extended congregation which is, which is great. One question I have obviously we have quite a lot of vickers and ministers and church leaders and whatnot, listen to to pep talk. And I think there's obviously there's a challenge there's a need here.
00:13:53
Speaker
I think for church leaders to think about that when they're preaching and pastoring, how do we equip the folks in the pew, not just so they can have interesting thoughts about, you know, mark chapter two, but so they might be able to talk, you know, meaningfully and winsomely with whoever it is those non-Christians, their lives, work, you know, friends, neighbors, whatever.
00:14:12
Speaker
Is there anything that you've learned that you would sort of pass on and share with those folks, people who are listening to this, who are preachers? Are there things that those of us who are preachers should be thinking a little bit more about perhaps when we're communicating in order to better? Yeah, no, it's a stupid question. I think one of the things that I would say is don't underestimate the power of the invited story.
00:14:35
Speaker
And what I mean by that is, you know, those people who are preaching obviously have power, do have power. And so what a minister, pastor pays attention, is seem to pay attention to, people will notice. And so, you know, it's very easy sometimes in the testimony to get into a little bit of a sacred secular divided testimonial
00:15:00
Speaker
mode if you like where you you tend to you know celebrate the people who've gone out on on mission trips or those who you know etc etc in the sort of in the church kind of world but what happens when a minister says you know i just really want you to hear from andy because i'm so excited about what good is doing through him in his context which is x y z in other words in a in a in a secular context because you know we want to celebrate what good is doing through him
00:15:30
Speaker
And we want to pray for him and others like him who are in similar contexts. And I think drawing attention and going out of your way to invite that story of where has God placed you? What would you see him doing there? What's a challenge? What's a kingdom opportunity? And if you happen to be, I don't know,
00:15:55
Speaker
in accountancy or something. Well, who else is in accountancy in our congregation or in finance or something? Well, let's pray for you all while we're praying for Andy, because actually we really trust that God is going to work through you guys where you are. So I think there's a, you know, in a pastor's toolkit, there is the power of the invited story, which I think is really underestimated, but you have to be very attentive to, you know,
00:16:25
Speaker
avoiding the sort of slide into the sacred and in the sense stay in the secular context as well. Isn't that the case for us working alongside each other not maybe in a kind of a more of a power relationship the person in the pool but I was thinking about a group I meet with six of us we read the bible and pray together once a week and I think I'm writing saying that three or maybe four of the people in the group are the only christian in their workplace
00:16:49
Speaker
So how can we support each other when we are gathered to be more faithful, more fruitful when we're scattered? What does that look like in practice? What can I do to really support my friends who maybe go into a workplace where they are the only Christian
00:17:04
Speaker
week by week, what can I do to support and serve them? Yeah, that's a super question as well. I think, you know, just being aware of that is a really great step anyway. In other words, if I'm preparing to preach and teach, I'm thinking about, well, who am I seeking to encourage and provoke? What other contexts in which this
00:17:25
Speaker
the implications of this text that we're exploring together might have an implication in a number of different ways and in a sense to be really intentional in that in preparation.
00:17:37
Speaker
And I think the other, you know, one of the things that, you know, I know a number of ministers do is that if they're going to say preach through, I don't know, the book of Hebrews or something like that, they'll get a group together, you know, as they are in the preparation of that series and say, so, you know, who are we preaching to?
Christians' Impact in Secular Roles
00:17:55
Speaker
How will this, you know, what's the significance of this text for people and for their context? And it is, you know, you do have to sort of be really quite intentional in going the next step to say it's not just about
00:18:06
Speaker
their character formation or their faith formation. But it's the missional output of that as well in terms of their everyday context. And we can glide over things. It's so easy to glide over the fact that David was a musician and whatnot, but he was a soldier. He was King David, but he was also a soldier. You think, well, you actually see, so what was the context that he was in? You think, well,
00:18:33
Speaker
Actually, he drew from his everyday context in understanding what does it mean to live faithfully with such a God, a God as we see in scripture. So I think the sense of intentionality, taking the opportunity to find out as often as possible what's going on in people's lives, where are they? I mean, what is extraordinary, I think, is if you take any church congregation, if you actually map
00:19:02
Speaker
where everybody was. And you say, this is the kingdom impact of our people. And that's not diminishing food banks or anything like that. It's all part of it. But I think there is something, Graham Cray said, the re-evangelization of the nation is not going to happen without the full participation of all God's people in their everyday context. It's not the only thing, of course,
00:19:32
Speaker
But it's a really important part of it.
00:19:36
Speaker
It is. And I think, I think what encourages me, of course, when you look through scripture, you know, there are so many examples of God using people at all levels. You mentioned, obviously, David, I mean, King, so you got top of the heap. But then, you know, the right way down to Joseph languishing there in prison and the impact that he has. And, you know, men and women throughout scripture from all kinds of different backgrounds, of course, even a donkey, actually, in the case of Balaam's ass. So to go, you know, however, however low down the path you think you are,
00:20:03
Speaker
God can make use of you. But Tracy, I'm conscious that you've worked in a variety of places. Obviously, you work for LACC and do other Christian bits and pieces now. But of course, you've been in business, you've been a student, you've been a mum and raised kids and worked in being in that kind of family.
00:20:20
Speaker
What are some of the ways, are there any sort of examples that you can, sort of, all wanting to share from your, almost your own experience of this, how God has used you in some of those different things? What are some of the lessons, perhaps, you've learned personally, you know, applying this in some of those very different settings that you've operated in over the years? Yeah, immediately you can't go to all the mistakes that you made on route.
00:20:49
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, I think in my earlier years, I worked in advertising, so I was in advertising and marketing. And I think one of the things that I learned there was the importance of truth telling.
00:21:07
Speaker
And, you know, I think it partly goes back to one of the things that I'm bothered about which is you know people having a big enough understanding of the gospel and the implications of the gospel because we can
00:21:22
Speaker
So imagine me in an office context, in an advertising context. If I'm in the little kitchenette making a cup of coffee and I don't have a chance to talk about Jesus all day, or is that a good day for Jesus as a Christian or is it rather mediocre? But if I've had the opportunity in a meeting, in a sense to speak,
00:21:49
Speaker
truth into a context. So my trade, if you like, is a researcher. So I use data and whatnot. And there is a temptation sometimes in certain organizations to twist data research to say what you want it to say and not necessarily to reveal some things that are less good. So if I have the opportunity to be a truth teller
00:22:17
Speaker
and to be trusted as somebody who's trusted with data, then actually, you know, that has a whole set of implications for my relationships with people. So being a mouthpiece for truth and justice is one of the ways that I can bear fruit for Jesus in a day.
00:22:37
Speaker
And I would hope that I could model godly character. The work that I do is of good quality, et cetera, et cetera, that I'm a positive influence, a godly influence on the culture of that organization and the noticing people and the kindliness and avoiding gossip and all of those kinds of things. And along the way, talking about Jesus as I get opportunity to do so. But in a sense, all of that is bearing fruit, isn't it?
00:23:06
Speaker
you know, for the kingdom. But if I only think that it matters to lead somebody to Jesus that day, and that's the, you know, and that's amazing when that happens, of course. But I think people lose out on the joy of doing life with Jesus in the world. And I would just, I think that was, you know, I think I had to learn that, that actually I had to look for what is it that God gave me opportunity to do today?
Broadening Our Gospel Understanding
00:23:37
Speaker
how am I gonna pray into that day? If it doesn't go well, does it matter? So you celebrate, I think celebration really matters actually. But I think my big point is to say, if we have a small gospel and a limited understanding of the implications of that, we will not experience the fullness of life with God that he would just so delights in really.
00:24:05
Speaker
Oh, there's a huge amount in there. I think we've got time. Do we have time for one more question? We've got time for one more question. One more question. Okay. We'll put one more in before we completely run out of time. So just wanted to ask you that in closing, you have, I suppose, a bit of a bird's eye view of what's going on in terms of the church and evangelism in the UK. What surprises you the most at the moment about God's mission in the world here in the UK? How much he's doing? I mean, that's the thing is, it's just
00:24:35
Speaker
It's just, you know, when you actually pause to notice, you know, who's serving, you know, who's ministering to those, you know, with needs in terms of deprivation and whatnot, who's running the youth groups. You know, if again, you know, the little picture I painted before, you look at your congregation, your worshiping community, where are they? God is working through every single person in that context.
00:25:02
Speaker
are we noticing it and I suppose that's you know the surprise is we don't notice just what God is doing and that's not to say there's not more to do and it's not a challenge and all of those true things are true but if it's also true that God is God and God is sovereign then he is at work. What a place to come and land on. I'm glad that was your
00:25:27
Speaker
answer, Tracy. I mean, one of the things that amazed me actually, you know, I moved back to the UK five and a half years ago from, you know, six years in Canada and, you know, traveling across the country now is that the green shoots that are everywhere. As you say, it's not always dramatic. Sometimes it's quieter, but it's, God is working in so, in so many ways. And yeah, like you, I'm, I'm encouraged. I'm hugely excited.
Conclusion and Book Promotion
00:25:51
Speaker
Tracy has been a privilege to have you on Pet Talk. If we had double the time, we could have filled it. Thank you.
00:25:56
Speaker
for taking the time. Thank you. Thank you for having me. If people want to check out Tracy's book, we mentioned her sixth session Bible study on Mark living the way of Jesus in the world. There'll be a link. And the show notes are on the Facebook social media post that you've found this podcast. So do check it out. It's not a big book. I'm a great fan of little books that you can really get into and aren't going to take your lifetime to go through. There's so much great stuff.
00:26:24
Speaker
in there, either on your own or in a group. So do check that out. And I will be back in a couple of weeks time for another episode of PepTalk, whether I'll have Christie or whether it will be the effervescence Gavin Matthews, we shall find out. But wherever you've caught this podcast, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on PepTalk.