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Secret #31: Our Favorite Dirty Little Secrets - Season 2
134 Plays9 months ago
Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry host the wrap-up episode, celebrating the end of season two. They reflect on various discussions from the season, including self-discovery, personal growth, relationships, equity, social justice, and mental health.
The wrap-up includes highlights from various episodes, featuring topics such as challenging societal norms, the importance of self-regulation in neurodivergent individuals, and the complexities of relationships with narcissistic personalities.
Highlights:
- Sibling Dynamics and Aggression
- Sexual Education
- Victim Blaming
- Neurodivergence
[00:00] Introduction and Season Two Wrap-Up
[01:29] Challenging Norms and Definitions
[01:38] Self-Discovery and Authenticity
[02:59] Dr. Steve Hayes on the Myth of Normal
[06:09] Kristen Campbell on Sexual Education
[09:29] Perfectionism with Dr. Z
[13:23] Stephen Batchelor on Good and Evil
[19:32] Katie Palmer on Favoritism
[25:28] Elisabeth Lati on Sisu
[31:37] Amy Beddows on Victim Blame
[35:01] The Term 'Victim' vs. 'Survivor'
[35:38] The Importance of Recognizing Victimhood
[36:25] Trauma Responses and Validation
[40:14] The Role of Neurodivergence
[49:24] Sibling Dynamics and Aggression
[55:27] The Impact of Narcissism
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Challenging Societal Norms
00:00:02
Speaker
We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible, or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out. Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh, cry, and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is life's dirty little secrets.
00:00:42
Speaker
Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Season Two Wrap-Up
00:00:45
Speaker
I'm Emma Waddington. And I'm Chris McCurry. And today we're doing a wrap-up of season two. It's hard to believe. It really is. It really is. It's been amazing. A lot of fun. Really enjoyed it. But before we jump in, I just wanted to bring up a technical issue that some of our listeners may have run into.
Addressing Audio Issues
00:01:07
Speaker
Something we discovered was that the various platforms may not always have the same quality of audio recording, you know whether it's Apple or Spotify, or if you download a podcast from our own website.
00:01:21
Speaker
So if per chance you download an episode and the audio quality is not great i would suggest downloading that episode from a different site and see if the quality is any better this may be. just a one-off thing that we've encountered, but it it could be an issue and we want everyone to have a good listening experience. That's really helpful.
AI in Podcast Analysis
00:01:45
Speaker
Thank you, Chris. and i've done so A lot of you are probably doing this already, but I'm very new to AI, so I did it a little experiment. I actually put into chat GPT all the titles of our podcast to see what the themes, what the threads were across
00:02:04
Speaker
season two, and it came up with some really good titles. So I thought we're going to sort of weave these into our conversation today. So the first one is that we've had conversations which challenged norms and definitions. And I think that's really accurate. We've had conversations around self discovery and authenticity, personal growth and empowerment, relationships and interpersonal dynamics, most definitely, as always. equity, fairness, and social justice, and finally, most obviously, about mental health and wellbeing. And so, yes, our various conversations have all, I think, touched on these six subsections. So we will, yeah, weave those into the conversation as we go through each episode, talking about what we've learned, what's been inspiring, what are our key takeaways.
Appreciating Guests
00:03:01
Speaker
from this fantastic season two. And we have a great appreciation for all our guests who were willing to come on and chat with us. We've had the exceptional privilege of meeting with, interacting with, laughing and crying with just some fabulous people who are doing amazing work in their respective fields. And obviously we can't do this podcast without them, so we're grateful to them. Absolutely. So many smart people. I've learned so much from them and incredibly generous to give their time and their knowledge to all of us.
Redefining 'Normal'
00:03:40
Speaker
Brilliant. Starting the season with Dr. Steve Hayes, who was my, my mentor when I was just a pup and he had, you know, the wild and crazy rant about there's no such thing as normal. Wow.
00:03:58
Speaker
Yeah, what what a way to kick off the season. Yes, that was an incredible conversation and incredibly, I'm very validating because I do think the myth of normal has debilitated many of us and continues to do so. This idea that there is a normal and that we should strive to be normal in every possible way. It is a myth and it can be a curse. And as he he described in in his, you know, in the podcast, the word normal wasn't even in common usage until the mid 1800s.
00:04:36
Speaker
And a lot of the statistics that psychologists use to categorize people and and decide you know with cutoff scores who's who's deviant and who's not, a lot of those statistics were devised to study crop yields, comparing you know one plot of land to another. So it's all group data and the individual gets lost. And you know the idea that you know one size fits all is is not good when it comes to things like you know psychotherapy or any kind of health care. So that's that's been Dr. Hayes' most recent endeavor and what he'll spend the rest of his career, his life doing is trying to find ways of helping people as individuals and you know contextualizing and customizing
Finding Personal Answers
00:05:28
Speaker
treatments.
00:05:28
Speaker
Yeah, it was very empowering. This idea that actually as individuals and with all our complexities and all our experiences, ah we can really find the answers within us. So when it comes to sort of working with a therapist, when it comes to reading self-help material, when it comes to listening to podcasts, seeing it really as a perspective and not necessarily the right perspective, but it really is so incredibly individual. What may work for you and what may help you and having that courage and confidence to listen to your experience versus getting swayed by what other people's experiences
00:06:12
Speaker
especially when you get these, you know, people in positions of authority. Well, we'll be talking about narcissism in a minute, but people in, in have very strong opinions about what's right and wrong and what should be normal and seen as good outcomes may not be the right ones for you.
Sibling Comparisons Preview
00:06:33
Speaker
Exactly. And as we'll talk about later with siblings, you know, comparison can be a real problem. Yes. but But as always, you know, check out the show notes for each episode where you can find resources. And there are many in the show notes for Steve Hayes's fabulous talk. Yes, it really was a great way to kick off. And then our next episode was with the fabulous Kristin Campbell, who's actually was with us in season one as well. And in that conversation, we talked about our sexual selves and it was a very
00:07:10
Speaker
I think much needed conversation and especially in this day and age where we're concerned about social media and children and what they have access to, you know, being able to have these conversations with children from a young age is really important. And there are a lot of taboos. In fact, I was having a conversation with a friend yesterday and he was talking about, you know, if we talk about sex, With children from a young age, aren't we instilling curiosity and a desire to actually engage in those acts? But the research shows the complete opposite. That when we educate our children about sex and sexual parts, obviously age, you know, age related, we can't be teaching very young children about.
00:08:00
Speaker
a lot of the details of sex, but starting to educate them about sex really empowers them and keeps them safe. They're less likely to engage in underage sex. So it's actually the opposite. The more they know, the less likely they are to get into unsafe situations. So it's really important. I don't think curiosity needs to be taught to children. it Yes, you're absolutely right. And then the the the other piece that was really important was this ability to have more open conversations with ourselves, with our partners about our sexual needs. And I think that that's a huge taboo. And starting early reduces the awkwardness and makes it more acceptable. And the piece around we are responsible for our own sexual pleasure and sexuality is so powerful.
00:08:57
Speaker
That was a really important message. And that includes being responsible for our sexual behavior, which is, again, something to teach children. hundred percent And actually that's also, you know, we'll be having the conversation about victim blame, but that comes into that too. and Yeah, these common themes. It's interesting. Yeah, it is interesting. But yes, so understanding responsibility and choice, consent, you know, what we want and what we like will empower us in our relationships going forward. Really important to actually topic.
00:09:31
Speaker
I'll be at one that, you know, is difficult and we will need to learn how to get more comfortable having these conversations with our partners, with ourselves and with our children really. Or as we often say in acceptance commitment therapy to be, to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Yes, my goodness. Yeah. Jill talked about that. Didn't she? In season one, and she had all these great examples on how she practices that strengthened that muscle by going on roller coasters and eating all these odd tasting sweets. Do you remember? But yeah, it is true. It is a muscle. Well, actually not something that I need to get comfortable doing.
00:10:11
Speaker
as Dr. Z talked about perfectionism. It was a great conversation. That was super fun. and yeah It was very interesting. And she talked about the drivers of perfectionism. which are bearing sphere of failure and then certain rules that we may be laboring under. And so she was saying we need to become aware of our processes and to unpack where we're stuck and why, what are our drivers? And she had a number of questions to consider. Is it a rule that we're following or is it a principle?
00:10:47
Speaker
You know, is it more values driven or is it more, you know, I must do this or something will happen. And then micro choice points, asking ourselves, why am I doing this now? And am I a maximizer or a satisficer? And I thought that was brilliant. and Brilliant. It's not true. And then chasing outcomes or chasing process or going after process. You know, I've often you know worked with students who, you know, the parents are like saying, I'll give you a hundred dollars for each A you get at the end of the semester. And by the time the grades come out, come out, it's too late. So I would instead say, let's work on the day to day processes that will get you but the optimal outcome. But things can intervene that
00:11:45
Speaker
you know, you have no control over. So we we have so little control over the outcome. It's very often in many situations. So it's a matter of what can I focus on? What do I have control over? And that's often the day to day process. Absolutely. And sometimes when we chase the outcome, like for example, making people happy, making people like us, and we don't get it, it can be incredibly hurtful and disappointing. And actually chasing outcomes is something that leads to burnout really, that we keep focusing just on how to finish that project, how to get that, well, whatever it might be, a salary or a position. And yeah, we can get burnt out pretty quickly.
00:12:36
Speaker
And that's again where a comparison comes in. I finished the project, but it's just not good enough. I'm not good enough, et cetera. And I thought it was very important when she talked about dealing with perfectionism is not a question of letting go of our standards or not caring anymore. Yes. So important. And when working with perfectionists, that's often what they're told. And it's incredibly, Difficult and painful because they're often told, well, stop caring so much. Why are you so bothered by, you know, having the best party? Or I remember her example of her TVs, which was fantastic. Having the best TV. Well, you know, we just can't stop caring. That is not the solution to the problem. It's been flexible.
00:13:32
Speaker
Yeah. And then I loved what she said, ah dancing with what life brings you. I've used that so much. And people really get that because it's true, because life will give you all kinds of experiences and you need to be able to, you know, change your dance, adapt to it. Yeah, it might not be what you were expecting. No, it could be better. Could be. yeah It could be something you need maybe even if it's not something you want. Yes, exactly. And then we have Stephen Bashler. What an honor. Oh, boy. Yes, yes, yes. I actually, I came across him. I remember when I was finishing my thesis, I read his book, Good and Evil.
00:14:18
Speaker
And I hadn't, I didn't know much about Buddhism at that time. That must be, oh my goodness, 20 years ago. Yes. 20 years ago, I picked up his book and I loved it. I love it. He's an amazing writer. He's an amazing writer. Yes, he really is. The way he can simplify really difficult topics is incredible. I mean, that's such a brilliant skill. So we talked about good and evil. We did. Has two poles on a spectrum and that life is often in the messy middle. Yes. And how much we want to pull on one or the other.
00:14:57
Speaker
Like we get really binary, don't we? We want to find, we want to be on the good side and not see any of the evil. And, but actually that can, can shut down, ah change our perspective. Actually that can narrow our perspective quite considerably and make us really quite rigid. Oh yeah. so Again, all these themes overlapping, you know, as we'll talk about with Jonathan Caspi and siblings, your, your, your identity is often the opposite of somebody else's identity. you know And so if i'm if I'm one of the good people, then there's gotta be some of the bad people out there. And so we get into dividing the world into us and them, the good people, the bad people. And you know we know historically what happens when that gets adopted.
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, it's very tribal. We touched on that, that, you know, we are so tribal in the way that we like to think. We like to think that we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. And actually one of the superpowers, and we talked about that with Robyn Walser in the Narcissism podcast, is our ability to cooperate. but that feels a bit like a Jedi skill sometimes. so Like being able to integrate somebody else's perspective when their perspective just feels so wrong, it's really hard. And I mean, we see that obviously politically, but we can also see that in terms in terms of families and relationships like like it. No, we don't. And he he talked about life life being uncertain and that we can never be, we he said a moral choice can never be certain.
00:16:42
Speaker
and that it takes courage to take these moral risks. And as we talked about with Elizabeth Latte with Sisu, you know a lot of times it's a leap of faith that we you know because we don't know sometimes what the the outcome is going to be, and particularly in parenting, what they call a wicked environment, one that where the contingencies are not real obvious or clear or immediate. We don't know if the thing we said to our child is going to inspire them or crush their souls. Absolutely. Going back to that perfectionism, right? It's all about the process and not the outcome.
00:17:19
Speaker
We need to sort of be mindful of what we want instead of getting caught up in the labels. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Or is this a good person or a bad person? and Even though our very reptilian brain likes to categorize. Oh yeah. surrounding Certainty and predictability and knowing who's with me and who's not with me. And, but to be a really, so he was, he was so great. Cause I, I sort of start trying to figure out, you know, what's the answer then? How do we move forward with this tendency of ours to become so categorical and sort of rejecting? Do we just, you know, need to start
00:18:05
Speaker
Being more compassionate and more open to seeing a different. Perspective and. And he talked about how. Yeah we just need to actually accept accept that the the way humans are has got us really. an incredible amount of development and success. So saying that, you know, in order for us to continue to evolve, we need to do something so different actually undermines everything that we've achieved to an extent. He was saying that actually humans with this binary view, with this tendency have also done
00:18:51
Speaker
an incredible amount. We of course, so not to sort of get stuck on striving all the time, again, actually to be cognizant of what we've achieved and to recognize that there's a lot of good. Because I was in the conversation noticing that I was focusing very much on what I saw as the bad. that's happening in the world. And he said not to sort of ignore the good. Again, that tendency to become quite binary. Right. And that these struggles that we have at all these different levels are opportunities to help us, you know, recognize and and examine, refine our ethics and our rules and evolve.
00:19:39
Speaker
And I loved what he said, that the 60s were such a time of revolution, having come out of the sort of Second World War, and everybody was very bold and courageous, and he thought that we're heading for another revolution. It's quite optimistic, I like that, without this new generation. Well, depending on which side of the revolution you're on. That's true. but yeah I was empowered by that more positive because yes, it's true. We can get really fixated on the things we want to change and lose sight of the things that are going well. no So yes, then we had a brilliant conversation with Katie Palmer on favorite child, a very
00:20:24
Speaker
a big worry for many parents and and with sort of right reason. Like we went on to converse with them Jonathan Caspi about the impact of favoritism, you know it being one of the biggest factors when it comes to sibling rivalry. it is the perception of there being a favorite child. And so that was a really important conversation that we had with Katie. And most parents are reluctant to admit that they have a favorite child, but it's also a fluid thing where, yes you know, which child at which time, depending on circumstances, I know this is a ah topic near and dear to your heart. Yes.
00:21:09
Speaker
From here, dear, to your children's hearts. Definitely. I'd like it not to be anywhere near my heart, but yes, I agree. It is. As soon as you've got, well, actually, even if you have any one child, we will be talking about, you know, equity and fairness. But the topic of favoritism Yeah, yeah it's it is really difficult. I was talking to somebody actually just a couple of days ago about mismatch between parent and child and how our temperament can be very different to our child. And so we can experience a mismatch. And in the same way, our temperament can be very similar to another one of our children and we can i feel very, very well matched.
00:21:57
Speaker
And that can mean that it can be easier to parent one parent one child versus another. It also, you know, means that it can change. It's not like it's fixed. You could be mismatched in the toddler years and then be quite well matched in teenage years, if you're lucky. So it can change, but not to get too attached. to your feelings, like just because you're you feel more connected or it feels easier to parent a child doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. I think that's really important. And just because your child thinks that there's favoritism doesn't mean that there is, although John is sort of quick to tell us to be very mindful and to be very curious as to why your child might be saying that.
00:22:46
Speaker
even though it's not your intention, why do they perceive favoritism? Now, Katie was talking about, you know, the function of that too. The child saying like, you know, i I was reflecting on my children saying that one of them is a favorite, you know, what are they trying to say to me? But also what are they trying to evoke as well? What do they want out of me with that comment? What's the intent? What's the intent, exactly. Because and it's definitely a trigger. It's meant to be. It's meant to be, absolutely. Really is meant to be.
00:23:29
Speaker
So Katie recommended examining our rules in our families, be more contextually sensitive, and also, you know, talking to our kids about equitability and, you know, what is fairness and what fairness isn't. And you're not going to prevent your child from seeing favoritism when they see it, but we can have those conversations and create to Create an environment where the kids feel at least heard and perhaps understand a little bit better about where the parents are coming from.
00:24:04
Speaker
really is a wicked environment, isn't it? Just listening to you talk about that. And I can see how on the one hand we want to have these conversations about equity and fairness and that things can sometimes feel unfair, but it's equitable. Like for example, my you know children, I have you know different ages. And so my eldest will complain about my youngest getting more help and more support. And that is, you know, equitable because she needs it, because she's smaller, but it feels unfair. If by fair he means equal. If by fair he means equal, exactly. But we can have these conversations with our children and they can still not be happy. They can still be unhappy with the outcome of the conversation because they didn't
00:24:53
Speaker
think that we're on the right side or they don't agree with us. So that's why I guess, yeah, it really is wicked even when with the best intentions, we can't control the outcomes. Well, yeah making our children happy can't be the goal. No, or making them like us all the time. Yeah. Also, unfortunately, although I would like it, but the cost to that, I'd probably have to spend all day buying them ice cream. And even then, not sure what they'd like me all the time. They get fed up the ice cream. It's pretty hard to be like all the time. Not sure it's possible, but yeah, it's definitely something that feels incredibly uncomfortable. Disappointing our children, you know, getting their disapproval is it hard. Yeah. Tough love sometimes. So yes, important. Then we had Elizabeth Lottie.
00:25:48
Speaker
gentle power, the finished concept of Sisu. That was a very interesting conversation. It was. She's so interesting as well. Her whole background of these sort of ultra marathons and how she's tested her body in so many different ways. And yeah, I never heard of Sisu. Defined as extraordinary determination in the face of extreme adversity. We tap into Sisu when when we feel like there's nothing left in the tank. Yes. And she talked about that sort of reserve of power, which we all harbor to get through some of the most challenging of moments. And she actually thought that she felt the parenting was a great example of Sisu.
00:26:38
Speaker
And probably there's many others, but we did reflect on parenting on, and I remember thinking that when I was, became a parent before I was a parent, I was so precious about how I slept and how I ate and my self care and blah, blah, blah. And suddenly you can't do any of it. You just have to, you know, wake up ah insane hours and do whatever the baby, like you have a dictator in the household. practically suddenly and you have to give up on and what you thought was so critical to your survival and suddenly you make it. You spend the first six weeks sleeping on nothing. So she talked about examining where our life force, our sisu is getting thwarted or squeezed down and talked a lot about you know the importance of self care.
00:27:30
Speaker
having an action mindset, taking us into the unknown. I really liked that. And again, it's kind of, you know, the leaps of faith as we talked about. That's right. and Yeah. But yeah, and it's um embodied, not kind cognitive, which I thought was interesting. It's not an intellectual exercise. It's really comes from deep down. Do you think that's the same as, because we then went on to talk about values, didn't we with her, whether that's what she would define as values. Like if I think back to the parenting expert, expert example, I guess you just do, you know, when you become a parent, you just get up in the middle of the night or you just, you know, find a way to, you know, help them when they're sick, even though you're exhausted, you just do it. Like there's not a lot of thinking that gets,
00:28:24
Speaker
No, something happens. I mean, an ambulance can go down the street but and it doesn't wake you up, but your child sniffles in the next room and you're wide awake. So something, again, you know, that embodied piece that our brain, our whole nervous system gets retuned in some way. Even even the men, even the fathers. Yes. Yeah, that's right. And you just do it. you just do it. And I guess what's the the the other part of it was, you know, she talked about, yes, our mindset in Sisu is really, and the courage allows us to
00:29:09
Speaker
transform what appears to be impossible into stepping stones for our personal growth. So we can find ourselves being able to do things that we really didn't expect about in a life force. And I guess the values piece comes in because that directs us. What is it that we want to use our Sisu for? because she talks about leadership in CSU, which I thought was ah really important, like the importance of using your your position of power wisely. Well, that's, yeah, because we got into the dark side of CSU, and that was one of them where it can become harmful to the environment, imposing our standards on other people,
00:30:01
Speaker
It can be harmful to us where we when we become you know merciless with ourselves and that can lead to burnout, ah feeling overextended. And she said it can also lead to stubbornness and rigidity. welcome She said Sisu can actually manifest as giving up when giving up is the right thing to do. Wow. so Yeah, because it can take a lot of courage to give up. I saw a bumper sticker years ago that said, I didn't give up, I surrendered. Yeah, exactly. I mean, sometimes saying no, turning things down, stopping, taking a break, incredibly bold and courageous moves.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah, yielding. And then she too brought up the idea of a dance, a dynamic interplay between ourselves and the world and and other people. And I guess that's when Sisu, when it gets insensitive, right, we talk about that insensitivity to context. a bit like the perfectionism, right? When this sort of determination of this life force gets very insensitive to what's actually happening and how it's actually working. You know, when we get too perfectionistic. Yeah. And inflexible, it leads to burnout. Yeah. That excess grit. Me too much. So it really is a dance. And then moving on to Amy Beto's victim blame.
00:31:33
Speaker
That was a tough one. Yeah, it was a tough conversation, important one, but quite uncomfortable too. I found it very difficult to to reconcile, although I see it in the clinic room, the fact that victims often feel blamed. Not only do they blame themselves, but they feel blamed and that is actually true. that it's real. The victims are plagued for what's happened to them. And that's very uncomfortable. And that can be quite overt. The questions that are asked like, you know, were you drinking and why did you park in that, you know, unlit area? And even things that are unintentional. The example of the police officers in the, in the hospital were standing with their,
00:32:26
Speaker
arms folded across their chest, which is body language that's defensive or aggressive, but they're standing that way because they can't put their arms at their sides because of their belts with all their gear on them. and And they were shocked to hear that the way they were standing would be interpreted as you know intimidating or in some way not supportive. Yes, that was incredible, wasn't it? And yes, I thought when we were thinking about, you know, how systemic victim blame is and how difficult it is for, I mean, so going back to the this idea that it is very hard for us
00:33:17
Speaker
to see victims. Like, it's very painful to be with somebody who has experienced, has been a victim of sexual violence, physical violence. It's much easier for us to find a reason why it happened to them. So it's a very ego centric perspective to try and protect your own feelings because you don't want to be a victim yourself. So it's easier for us to find a way to blame or find some sense of responsibility to happen because they walk down that dark alley or
00:33:49
Speaker
it happened to them because of what they were wearing or the kind of person they are, like finding something in that person that led to that horrible outcome is very protective. Oh yeah. and And it gets back to that me versus them mentality. Yeah. The good and evil. I was just thinking that too, because when we think about some of the systemic issues as well, where people who work with victims are often burnt out, it's really hard work. Well, yeah, and the caseloads are enormous and waitlists are long. And she mentioned that it could take three years for a case to come to trial, maybe even if it ever does. And so that's just more, heaping more you know, stress on the individual. Yes. I'm even a ah bit uncomfortable with the word victim.
00:34:42
Speaker
yeah yeah i think I think I would prefer to use survivor, but I know you know that that you know victims of sexual violence, victims of domestic violence, I know that that's a common term and we'll probably never replace it with anything else, but it's sort of in and of itself. I agree. Although I also think that victims don't get to feel like real victims. Also tell me more. think Well, I think that when you've experienced sexual violence or you've been a victim of crime or whatever that might've happened, we don't give them the option opportunity to really feel like they were a victim. They were powerless over it. They have no responsibility. This wasn't something that should have happened and it was wrong. Instead, we quickly try and figure out how it happened, why it happened.
00:35:41
Speaker
and trying to to figure it out doesn't give the victim opportunity to really feel that powerlessness and how wrong it was. And to me, that's an important stage. Right. I mean, Stephen Porges who came up with the vagal nerve theory, he gave a talk at the big annual act conference in San Francisco a few years ago. And he was talking about how and when people are undergoing a traumatic experience, they can, they can become paralyzed essentially. Yes. And like physically, right? Physically paralyzed. And, and
00:36:24
Speaker
he had a woman write to him and say, thank you because everybody says I should have fought back. That's right. and His saying you were physically incapable of fighting back at that moment was incredibly validating. and But there it is too. you know It's like, well why don't you just cry out? Why don't you fight back? I hear it so often, even with sort of individuals who've had child sexual abuse and they say, why, why didn't I fight fight back? Why didn't I shout they were five or six. So I do think that there's something important about the label victim. It just doesn't, it doesn't, I mean, then you are, you become a survivor, but the first part is really feeling that
00:37:17
Speaker
you're a victim and this just shouldn't have happened and you couldn't have done anything to stop it from happening. It was just flat out wrong. Flat out wrong. Exactly. And Yeah, and it's incredibly unfair that victims experience so much blame. And I think going back to the conversation that you know we had with Stephen Batchelor, not to get too categorical and then put the blame on all the people that work with victims that are also
00:37:49
Speaker
often experiencing vicarious trauma, really overwhelmed with the services, went into this work because they believed that they could do something good and something important and then encountered an incredibly unfair, ineffective environment, wicked there too. So not to sort of start pointing fingers and actually being able to, like Stephen Batchelor was inviting us to, look at it all, not to get too binary. And finally, she had some recommendations for all of us and how we can yeah be helpful. She said, you know, engage, slow down. You know, if if you're working with with a victim, a survivor, offer them a cup of tea and a biscuit.
00:38:38
Speaker
And for all the listeners here in the States, a biscuit just means a cookie. It's so British. Because when we think of biscuits, we usually think of something you give to your dog. Really? Oh, that's hilarious. I didn't know that. It's a dog treat. But get informed, recognize your own biases and prejudices, and be able to hold that discomfort lightly. you know Like you were saying, you know we're we're uncomfortable when people are victimized because it's a little too close to home, and rather than trying to do all those self-protective moves that are invalidating to be able to hold that discomfort, and dance with it, and be there for the person.
00:39:18
Speaker
Yeah, the compassion for ourselves, right, too. This is very difficult for us and them. So the next one, neurodivergence. That was fantastic. Yeah. I was so excited about getting this opportunity. Obviously since that conversation, I see neurodivergence everywhere, including in myself. Well, I thought it was interesting that there was a di that she talked about the difference between neurodiversity and neurodivergence, and that essentially we're all neurodiverse because we all have these incredibly complex brains that are all somewhat different, but neurodivergence kind of gets back to the whole Stephen Hayes, what's normal thing.
00:40:01
Speaker
ah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was very, it was, it's, it's a really, and talking and thinking about the social justice piece, right? And equity. being able to now be moving, because the way we were educated was, you know, we were trained in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, thinking about disorders and ADHD and autism being disorders. And now this this movement around understanding the neurodivergence in a way that it's just, there are differences in how
00:40:40
Speaker
the brain, what drives people with neurodivergence, such as ADHD and ASD, versus what drives a neurotypical brain, that there's that difference. And I thought it was a, yeah, a wonderful invitation to start thinking about difference and not disorder. And you know, it's... Going back to that, seeing people at the level of the individual, exactly Exactly. Coming back to Steve Hay's conversation and what I thought was really important was our conversation on, you know, the different types of neurodivergence. I didn't know OCD was in there, but that makes complete sense. Schizophrenia. Yes.
00:41:27
Speaker
Yeah, credible. I didn't know that, which yeah, it's quite validating in some of the work that we've done, you know, clinically in the room. I just find it so much more validating generally to be thinking more on an individual level than in norms because I don't want to be having to fit into a category ofry or not personally. Well, as you know, my wife Sue is a geriatric psychologist who works a lot with people with dementia and their caregivers. And what they say in dementia work is, if you meet one person with Alzheimer's, you've met one person with Alzheimer's.
00:42:08
Speaker
That's right. That's right. That's right. Makes the complicated work, but it's real. Right. Exactly. And one of the things that that surprised me was Jennifer talked about the higher mortality and morbidity rates among people who are neurodivergent, you know, and it's not just the stress that they chronically experienced trying to be square pegs and round holes day after day. But, you know, they have autoimmune issues, allergies, chronic pain, gut and muscular skeletal issues. And that was news to me. And like, me too. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Cause she was saying if you're neurodivergent, you're neurodivergent in every cell of your body. I think of the cases that I've worked with over the years, it makes complete sense because that was very much the case as in the cases that have
00:43:05
Speaker
you know, ADHD years or ASD mostly actually have a long list of physical ailments and issues, especially allergies and gut issues. But I didn't know about the musculoskeletal issues, but you know, and incredible amounts of stress. And I think that that stress piece is really important. I also love the conversation we had about you know the the executive function. That was very important. Yeah. Because executive functions or executive skills, because they're skills, you can teach them and you can get better at them if you practice them. So things like attention management, which I think is what ADHD really is. it's not and
00:43:55
Speaker
deficit. It's an attention management problem. That's an executive skill, ah impulse control, perspective taking, all of those things. Yes, absolutely. They are all skills. And and this idea that ADHD years, and because we were mostly talking about ADHD and autism, are driven by interests and they have this hyper focus. And she talked about authenticity, that that is that is me. I love geology. Or she talked about how she loves
00:44:30
Speaker
psychology in the study of human behavior and when you have a the topic of interest that they can get very hyper focused and you know, knowing that and understanding that can be very validating that that's just what drives me as opposed to there's something wrong with me that I'm so fascinated by. the study of dinosaurs or whatever it might be, that that's their topic of interest, that that is just me. And finding your tribe of others who are also interested is really important as opposed to, and I thought was very powerful is to think about, you know, neurodivergence isn't a mental health issue, although they're more likely to have a mental health issue. The mental health problems come when they're not able to be themselves.
00:45:18
Speaker
when they have to mask, pretend to be something else. And I was really struck by the statistic she gave around the stereotypy behaviors, the hand flapping, the need for that, that helps. individuals on the spectrum self-regulate. And then when children were were stopped, when they weren't able to engage in these behaviors and their fidgeting or whatever it was that helps them regulate, they were more likely to have anxiety issues by the age of 10. And I was really struck by that. Like I remember being trained when I used to work in developmental disorders, a big part of our work was interfering with those behaviors.
00:46:01
Speaker
because those behaviors were getting in the way of their ability to write or their ability to play appropriately. And I remember we used to work really hard to find competing behaviors for them. Chewy toys, whatever it was, something that was a more appropriate way of stimming. But thinking about the the mental health cost of that is, yeah, it's really sad. And I guess it's, you know, coming back to you know being able to be ourselves and the individuals that we are and finding the tribe that will accept us for who we are. When she talked about learning self-advocacy skill, she has a book coming out, I guess next month, the Neurodivergent Skills Workbook for Autism and ADHD. And listeners can find a link to that on the show notes on our website for Jennifer Kemp's episode.
00:46:55
Speaker
And she also spoke about, which, oh, sorry, I'm going on. I'm so excited by this topic. I just thought it was a brilliant conversation. She also talked about that support piece that recognizing that if you are neurodivergent, you might need more support and that that's okay. And you need your team around you if you can. And she talked about having a whole load of support. She had an admin, she has a gardener, she's got her accountant in order to function. Her husband, yeah. And I thought that was really validating. i That it's okay, it's okay to need those things. And as so many of us do. To be honest, yeah. I was like, hmm, I could do with a PA. I think I might just look into that. My life would be a bit easier.
00:47:52
Speaker
Absolutely. It's like giving ourselves permission to be. It's really hard when we don't. Jonathan Caspi. Oh, yes. That was one of my favorite ones. Siblings. But that was a very interesting in part because he was asking us a lot of questions particularly at the beginning. He was interviewing us and we were doing a lot of self-disclosing. But yeah, he that was that was so interesting that you knowlings siblings are more different from each other than any you know random strangers that you can put them up against in terms of you know the standard measures about personality and what have you, which
00:48:32
Speaker
you know We can have a whole discussion about the value of the concept of personality, but the idea that siblings are very different from one another and his point was that they are different from one another because of one another. The labeling that goes on, being the not that, you know the shy one versus the outgoing one, the studious one versus the slacker, So we get labeled and then we assume that that role and we end that whole comparison piece. And we talked a lot about favoritism as being a driver of sibling aggression. Yeah. Horrendous actually. The piece around sibling aggression was very disturbing and how much it's condoned and accepted that, you know, siblings will be violent with each other. And yet the impact of sibling violence
00:49:28
Speaker
is horrendous, lifelong and traumatic. And he talked about how the impact is the same as any witnessing any violence. No, actually he said it's actually worse because you're trapped in it. You have no escape. And the people who are meant to be protecting you aren't. and he And he said that intervening can actually exacerbate the situation. So parents are in a ah no-win situation when it comes to this. However, he has a ah book coming out for parents on how to deal with sibling aggression. So no doubt there will be some some good stuff in there. But he did talk about, you know, dealing proactively.
00:50:14
Speaker
instead of you know on the fly, instead of just reacting to things. So laying out the expectations and the rules, noticing good behavior. you know he had ah He had a lot to say about the fact that When our children are behaving themselves, they get ignored. But as soon as they start acting out, that's when the attention comes in, which can be reinforcing in and of itself. But if the parent intervenes and appears to be taking sides, then it builds up that resentment and that perception of favoritism, and that vicious cycle gets created.
00:50:48
Speaker
And it's so easy to do that. And for yeah I talked about that, that it's so easy if you see any aggression towards one of your children, maybe the younger one for you to sort of start defending that younger one and sort of taking sides. It's just really hard. and And I think really one can separate them without necessarily accusing anybody. And you can sort of separate the children, stop them from fighting. And once they've calmed down, talk about it, but not to get involved and start blaming and finger pointing because you don't have the whole picture. But it's very difficult. Very difficult. Very difficult. So you can find a ah link to Dr. Caspi's book in the show notes.
00:51:42
Speaker
Yeah. And the other thing I thought was beautiful. The last thing to comment on was the impact that siblings relationships have on longevity and happiness. Oh yeah. That's lovely. That I don't think we talk about that enough. That, you know, siblings are really good for us when the relationship is a good one. It's, it's incredibly protective. Like he talked about in divorce, you know, in very difficult divorces, it basically protects you from the impact of the divorce if you have a strong sibling relationship. or Or just any kind of challenging family situation because you have somebody to commiserate with or to do a little reality check or you know somebody to shrug and say, yeah, dad's being a jerk today, but you know it'll be okay tomorrow. So yeah, yeah that's that's hugely important to have that kind of validation and support.
00:52:39
Speaker
And I think as parents, it's really important to remember that, that we want to, as much as possible, encourage their relationship, like help them feel more connected and be very mindful of the piece around comparison, blaming, putting each other down, and instead work on supporting their relationship. So that's really, yeah, it's great for their wellbeing. Even allowing them to conspire against us. Yeah, it's nothing like them versus us. Games. So true. But I don't think we think about it as much as we should as parents. The impact we can have on the sibling relationship, we are quite responsible for how they get on. And then,
00:53:28
Speaker
Yes. Was Robin Walser another fabulous guest? Of course. Some of us know her from all her work in ACT. We talked about narcissism and that was another brilliant conversation. And yeah and what I loved is, is to think about sort of the, the role of narcissists in our society. Like they, why it is that we get so drawn into the kind of hold of narcissists, what makes them incredibly good at getting followers and capturing people's attention and
00:54:11
Speaker
influence. So they can be charming and funny, at least at the beginning, but then, you know, there's, you know, the gaslighting, which Robin also said was and a term that's being overused these days along with narcissism. But yeah, ah you know, over promising things. And then when those things are not delivered, blame is shifted around and a new story comes out and they get pulled back into the cult or you know, the political party or whatever it may be. Yeah, it's incredible. The her conversation about how your narcissists can be incredibly convincing of their ability to solve our problems, be it in a political party or a leadership role or in a relationship, like they will
00:55:03
Speaker
fix it. We just have to trust them and believe in them. And that's how we get drawn into their hold really. And especially when resources are low, I thought that was really interesting because I do think, um and I mean, there's always been figures in history that you would say have narcissistic traits, if not full blown narcissists. But of late it feels like, yeah, yeah there there's ah there's a lot. Well, it seems like, you know, in the last 30, 40 years or so, we've been celebrating narcissists through the whole... you know i remember I'm old enough to remember when we didn't have People magazine, you know and there's there's always been like celebrities, but it it seems like people are being celebrated for being celebrities, you whether it's the Kardashians or or you know Donald Trump.
00:55:57
Speaker
I mean, he was had a great PR team and he had his TV show and he just parlayed that into the highest levels of power. ah But we've we've elevated a lot of people, you know the the people who admire billionaires, whether it's yeah Bill Gates or Elon Musk or or whatever. and I think in part, is we we want to get ah we want to have a little bit of that rub off by association. I can feel powerful too, or at least I've got i've got somebody who's going to smite mine enemies for me.
00:56:36
Speaker
That's right. And that that that resources piece, when we are low on resources, we want somebody that can help us get access to more resources, like there's the threat. And the narcissistic can help you feel confident that you will not have to experience um the threat. So be it in a relationship, you know, and Robin talked about, you know, people who are over empaths and potentially have had, you know, difficult upbringings are seduced by the narcissistic ability to reassure and convince that they will make everything right. Or in political parties and leadership that, you know, I will fix the problem. I will make this bad thing go away.
00:57:24
Speaker
Just trust me, just be with me. And I think the sad part of the conversation was how difficult it is once you're under the the trance of a narcissist to actually come out, that it can be, you know, g narcissists can be incredibly, especially if they have the malignant type, can be incredibly cruel and find a way to blame you. Well, because you know over a period of time, you've probably become isolated. You're probably you know not getting disconfirming opinions from anybody. you're you know You're only reading certain newspapers or watching certain sources of news.
00:58:11
Speaker
and and everything everything else is propaganda or, you know, fake news or whatever. And so, you know, again, it goes back to the binary, good and evil, yeah thus versus them thing. And there's power in that. yeah That's scary. It is scary. It's really scary. And just going back to the conversation with Stephen Batchelor, how do we move forward? when our human brain has this sort of very tribal lens where we want to be part of the good guys or the guys that will, you know, we, we feel very easily threatened and scared and worried about our wellbeing, our future, our safety. And that's how we get sucked into the hold of, you know, more narcissistic
00:59:01
Speaker
personality. But how do we, because one of the ways out is finding, I mean, you have to be incredibly brave. If you are in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, it requires a lot of courage because you do almost gets disorientated by the narcissistic's perspective on the world and on you, right? The gaslighting is very confusing. You doubt yourself, you doubt your own reality. That's right. That's right. And so finding a tribe of people that get that, get what that's like, and know what you're going through and know that you're not alone and you're not crazy. That was so important, what Robin said. You're not crazy for feeling like this. It is not you. It's really important.
00:59:53
Speaker
And she did reference a couple of resources like surviving surviving narcissism, I think, as a website for some videos. It's a YouTube channel, surviving narcissism. And it's, you know, for people who are in relationships with narcissists that they perhaps can't just sever, you know, such such as a parent, you know, or maybe an ex that you're co-parenting with, unfortunately. So there's a link to that youtube channel in the show notes for robin's episode. Yes. Really important. But i guess when it comes to politically and the narcissists in this world that are. Yeah political positions we can.
01:00:37
Speaker
escape them, but hopefully going back to Stephen Batten's conversation, how can we get more cooperative yes and more empowered that, you know, we're better together versus a more tribalistic view that sort of narcissists as leaders encourage. yes we set the well That's the world I want. Okay. So for our episode number 30, we had the pleasure of inviting Diana Hill back in for a really fun and enlightening conversation on wise efforts, which I loved how she introduced it, but it had been a labor of love, the work that she's been doing, but he talked about how it had been delivered through four steps.
01:01:30
Speaker
how it had been something that was quite effortful actually to work on. But yeah, it was a really, I love the concept. I love the idea of thinking about the work that we do wisely, you know, be it where we're putting effort in our lives wisely, not And I think it ties into burnout. It ties into the concept of perfectionism. It ties into so many other conversations that we've had with our wonderful guests. And she said that it's essentially a Buddhist concept and how to use your life force. And she even mentioned Sisu. So again, you know all these convergences.
01:02:11
Speaker
It's true. It's true. She did mention it. and And I love this idea that with wise efforts, the energy, she spoke a lot about energy and how energy isn't just depleted. We can get energy out of the work and the ah effort that we put into our lives in different areas of our lives. And I thought that was so important because we often think about just how we're depleted throughout the day and actually thinking about what is actually energizing us, giving us energy and actually filling us up. And that can be in the area of work or parenting or sports, whatever it might be. But just to be mindful of that part too. The, and she talked about, uh, the climate actist, uh, Kristana Fugaris and how she talked about the concepts of endless abundance.
01:03:01
Speaker
uh, wrackle regeneration, which I guess, I think where that energy replenishing comes from and then stubborn optimism. which I thought was a great concept. I love that. that answer but Spaciousness. Yeah. Instead of gripping too tightly, whether it's because of, you know, we're caught up in our concepts and self stories or rules that we have, but to just ah be more and more open. spious That curiosity again came back. The conversation included approaching life generally with curiosity and openness, asking ourselves, what is this actually doing for me? Like the, the example that she gave that her client spoken about, I feel like I do so much and yet it's never enough is.
01:03:52
Speaker
So true. Like what is this? What are the returns from what I'm putting in? Am I continuing to get what I want out of this activity or this exchange or, and that can help us think about how much energy and effort we want to put into something. She mentioned the word is not worth it. Yeah. This reminds me of something somebody said a while back. ah is Is the juice worth the squeeze? Yeah, I like that. So we have season three. Yes. That will be coming out early yes summer. We've got some great people scheduled already. We've got Russell Colts, psychologist here in Washington state, who will be talking about masculinity.
01:04:40
Speaker
Yes, such an important conversation with the sort of crisis that we're seeing in males, men's mental health. And we have an interesting pair coming up, Jennifer Tostikaris and Christopher Michaelson. Jennifer is a psychologist who works in management and Michaelson is a philosopher. who also does management ethics, business ethics, and they've written a book called, Is Your Work Worth It? And we'll be talking to them about their book and their their thoughts on on work, which should be very interesting. And then we're going to have an episode on the secret power of disagreements.
01:05:24
Speaker
Oh yes. And that's Yael Schoenbrunn, right? Yes. Okay. She's great. Amazing. She's great. We're looking forward to some very interesting conversations with some very smart, interesting people. Yes, we're very lucky. Once again, we get to be inspired and educated by phenomenal people in the field that just give us a different perspective on important topics. So please join us for season three and thank you for listening. That's right. Thank you very much. All of you. It's been a, yeah, an amazing year and three months and we're still here still doing it.
01:06:07
Speaker
right see you all in season three you then thanks so much for tuning into the life's dirty little secrets podcast
01:06:21
Speaker
Great. See all in We invite you to follow, rate and review us on wherever you listen to this podcast. It is the best way to get our podcast out in front of new listeners. We'll be back in a couple of weeks with more. See you then.