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Behavior is Communication
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Join Lisa Richer, certified Neurodiversity Consultant and I as we talk about neurdivergence in sports, school and life!
A certified Neurodiversity Consultant who believes we must first seek to understand the learner in order to effectively support them in all learning and development goals.
A parent of 2 neurodivergent boys, more than 20 years combined Leadership, Human Resources, Training, Neurodiversity Consulting experience, and years as an Elite level athlete, Lisa leverages her lived experiences and professional training in her Consultancy, Journey2bloom.
lisa@journey2bloom.com
journey2bloom.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Lisa Richard and her journey
00:00:01
Sharla Mandere
Hello and welcome back to Mom Tabulous. I'm Sharla Mandair and with me today is Lisa Richard. Lisa is a certified neurodiversity consultant who believes we must first seek to understand the learner in order to effectively support them in all learning and development goals. She's a parent of two neurodivergent boys.
00:00:20
Sharla Mandere
With more than 20 years of combined leadership, human resources, training, neurodiversity consulting experience, and years as an elite level athlete, which we're going to talk about, Lisa leverages her lived experiences and professional training in her consultancy Journey to Bloom.
RIPE Ideas Framework Introduction
00:00:37
Sharla Mandere
Through the lens of her RIPE Ideas framework,
00:00:40
Sharla Mandere
She strives to simplify the neurodiverse learning journey by connecting parents and educators with resources and tools, along with providing advisory services to help them navigate the complex and often overwhelming learning journey. Okay. Welcome, Lisa. We'll say this is take two. We were fully recording and then it wasn't recording anymore.
00:01:02
Sharla Mandere
we
00:01:02
Lisa
But now I'm not as overwhelmed, so we're good.
00:01:03
Sharla Mandere
you
00:01:05
Lisa
That's good.
00:01:06
Sharla Mandere
yeah So, all right, so share with us how you became a neurodiversity consultant.
00:01:14
Lisa
All right. and So it really all began when my oldest, who will actually be 18 tomorrow. So my parent journey with the world of neurodiversity began just about 18 years ago, and my actual journey unknowing to myself started when I was really little. And um because I have grown up to learn that I am neurodiverse, um several different diagnoses, ADHD, anxiety, um highly sensitive person, which isn't an actual diagnosis, but I have done the assessments for that, and visual processing disorder, which I know we'll we'll talk a little bit more about
00:01:58
Lisa
Um, some of which was diagnosed through my doctors and some of it was diagnosed through my journeys with my boys, both neurodivergent.
From Corporate to Advocacy: Lisa's Transition
00:02:06
Lisa
Um, so my journey evolved really through my children and then to me in gaining the clarity and through the years advocating for them. I really just kept diving deeper and deeper into the advocacy work and helping educate others, but I was getting lost in myself in the world and like the corporate world because I was being made to feel less than don't be so sensitive. Don't be so, um, and energetic. Don't be so emotional. Don't be so caring. Don't like all this. Don't be, don't be, be more like me, be more like this and people not understanding like how I even did things. And so eventually I turned all of those things into
00:02:56
Lisa
special education advocacy, but then I was met against like acts of like, Oh, you're an advocate and special education of you're in a little box. But what I learned is that that the, the neurodiversity umbrella is so, so broad. And I want to be able to help all of those people, no matter what it is, whether it's and a known diagnosis like autism or something that's not as well known, like trauma.
00:03:26
Lisa
um Closer diversity, like there's a lot of different things that are under the neurodiversity umbrella. People don't really recognize or or know. Not that they don't recognize, they don't just don't know it's there. um And so all of those things brought me to doing the work that I do today in helping parents, helping professionals, and helping organizations. So really helping people like me simplify the neurodiverse learning journey so that they don't have to go through everything I went through.
00:03:56
Sharla Mandere
Yeah. And I mean, you're speaking to so many
Personal Experiences with Autism and Education
00:03:58
Sharla Mandere
people, right? Like the neurodiverse umbrella, the spectrum of it, right? Is so big. Like what we were saying before when we thought we were recording is that, you know, people hear neurodiversity and I think they just assume autism and that while that is one piece of it, there's also like, like you said, anxiety. Um, and now my cat, my cat's like me, me, me.
00:04:22
Sharla Mandere
Um, you know, ADHD, you know, ah just like test anxiety or, you know, my youngest has, I say all the disses dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia.
00:04:33
Sharla Mandere
She has some auditory processing stuff, you know, so all of that falls under the neurodiverse and. if you know for children that are struggling with friendships or struggling to feel understood like I felt misunderstood a lot as a kid so you know I will I will over explain myself I will tell you backstory I will share TMI because I want you to understand me come here girl I want you to understand my intention and what I'm saying because I felt misunderstood so much as a kid and in the corporate world which I think is one of the reasons I left corporate too because it was just like
00:05:00
Lisa
yeah
00:05:08
Sharla Mandere
this is not this my cat's like hi i i'm perfect though um she's like i'm perfect um yeah you know like i i feel i felt i felt the same very kind of like squashed fit into this box me my children my husband none of us fit into a box and i think
00:05:14
Lisa
Once you're part of it, my wait till my dog starts talking.
00:05:33
Sharla Mandere
these boxes need to be totally removed, but widened, bigger, changed. There's many different boxes broken down.
00:05:40
Lisa
Broken down, broken down completely. And you know, it's the friendships and relationships you were talking about.
00:05:43
Sharla Mandere
yeah
00:05:48
Lisa
Um, it's so, it's so easy, not easy. It's not really easy, but it happens often that you end up being someone that you're not because people don't understand you.
00:06:04
Lisa
And so they want you to be like them. And so. the misunderstanding, the overwhelmed, all of those things just really come into play. And like I think about what you were just talking about, and we talked about it, like you said earlier, we thought we were recording. You know, the friendships and the relationships. Some of my older son's closest friends now are people that had did not understand him at all in elementary school.
00:06:35
Lisa
And he would follow them like on the playground, and he would um try to engage with them. But he was into science, and they were all into social studies. And he's like, I don't like history. I only want to talk about these space things. and And then in middle school, we got to the point where, because I was surrounded by lots of people that didn't get it, and people that put me down, and people that gave me those cross eyes, especially when he was having true autistic meltdowns and overstimulated and sensory overload. and But then I also had the people that were like, you keep being you, you keep doing you, you keep showing up for him and he's going to end up being able to show up for himself. And when he was in sixth grade, my younger son who's ADHD and the visual processing, which is how I found out about the visual processing was through, um, through him.
00:07:32
Lisa
He said, what is wrong with my younger brother? And and I said, what do you mean? He's like, he's so crazy. He's hyperactive. He's impulsive. like he just He's all over the place. And and I said, well, he is ADHD. And by the way, you're autistic. So he was sixth grade before I ever told him. Now he had to have tons of therapies. But the reason I didn't tell him, it wasn't because I was afraid of him knowing. It was because I didn't want to change his perception of himself.
00:08:02
Lisa
I didn't want him to feel like he wasn't going to ever be anything, which when he first got diagnosed, we were told, don't expect him to do anything. And now he is in the top, they don't do percentages of class, but in the top, like 2% of his high school class. And I was told he never go to a normal school. So these are the reasons why I do what I do. But what was beautiful was once he read about what it meant to be autistic, he started to understand the disconnects of the social and the friendships and why he wasn't able to connect. He started to understand his brother a little bit better, still was annoyed by him, but was understanding of him. And he went into school and one of the teachers was asking about like, have you, you know, there's different types of kids that learn differently. um And they were like, well, we don't know when and that's autistic. Cause I think they use that as an example. And my son raised his hand and he was like, I'm autistic. And they're like, no, you're not.
00:09:00
Lisa
And he said, well, what does that mean? And they're like, well, you don't look autistic. And he's like, well, what is autistic supposed to look like? And they looked at him. They didn't know what to say. And he used the example on the playground because a couple of those kids were in that class that were with him in elementary. And they're like,
00:09:17
Lisa
oh He's like, so it doesn't have to look a certain way. But remember when I would follow you, I was really just trying to talk to you because I didn't know what to say. There was no connections. I didn't know how to engage with you guys. And a couple of those kids are his best friends to this day. And they went from kids that were like, don't follow me on the playground to kids that are like, wow, you know, you are who you are.
00:09:40
Lisa
And we're going to learn who you are so that we can accept you for who you are and maybe be a little bit better and more and more understanding of others because of it. And and that's really at the heart of the work I do when I call it my life's purpose. Sometimes it's because helping other parents recognize that if you give your child the space and the tools They may not get to the level that my son did. He's very highly intelligent, but he was born with those scratches on the CD-ROM. And when his cup overflowed, his implosions were, I got the looks of, can't you control your child? Like those looks, he didn't get invited to kid's birthday parties. And then my younger one, people were like, oh my God, calm this kid down. So I've had it from all angles. I've only known being a parent as a neurodivergent individual.
00:10:32
Lisa
um and as them being our divergent, but there is a way to help them, but we have to first accept it and know that it's okay that they're not like everyone else.
Gymnastics, Visual Processing, and Advocacy
00:10:44
Sharla Mandere
Yeah. And I love that. I love that he was able to turn those friendships around by sharing and being so comfortable and sharing of himself and how mature at that age, like like middle school age should be like, well, what's it supposed to look like? Right? Like, what do you think? I'm going to look like, you know,
00:11:00
Sharla Mandere
and so i love i love that And that's a testament to how you parent, right how you talk to him and and and show him you know um about about himself. okay we had We're having a great conversation about about you and your your your love your time as an elite gymnast, elite level gymnast, and the depth perception.
00:11:21
Sharla Mandere
And, and, you know, I, I was a gymnast and I was at not the elite level at any means, but I was like a gymnastics coach for a long, long time. And so I'm fascinated by how, yeah, how you got to this elite level internationally, like rate competing for America.
00:11:39
Sharla Mandere
And, and like, especially with the way the vault was before God, what was it? It was like the 2000s when we changed to the vault table.
00:11:46
Lisa
yeah
00:11:47
Sharla Mandere
because i think it was um Yeah.
00:11:47
Lisa
I was long out of college when the vault changed. Yeah.
00:11:50
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:11:51
Lisa
So I knew we were talking about it. Like it looked like the spotting blocks that we would train on before we ever got to the horse. When, cause the horse, when I was growing up, when, and what we were talking about was what pommel horse looks like without the pommels.
00:12:05
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:12:05
Lisa
And that was the horse and they were slick and they were narrow and we were doing round off entries and all sorts of things, you know, on it. And, um, so the depth perception thing.
00:12:16
Lisa
So were I know um why when my son was getting trained for a home program, we were doing some of the testing. And that's where I was telling you I had found out that I had visual processing.
00:12:28
Lisa
And the therapist said, oh, you could really benefit from it. But you're not a gymnast anymore. So it probably wouldn't really matter as much. But every time I would,
00:12:36
Sharla Mandere
I'm kind of like driving a car, you need good depth perception. So maybe.
00:12:40
Lisa
well, I didn't go there.
00:12:41
Sharla Mandere
and
00:12:43
Lisa
But you know what's really funny? Not funny, ironic. that my older son and I, um, sometimes like, wow, mom, you really close to the side of the car. Cause he's very observant of these things now. Cause he's, he's been driving for almost two and a half years or almost three years now. And I was like, was I really that close? And when he says things like that, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's my debt perception. Or I will break.
00:13:08
Lisa
And I'll go, if I'm not driving, I'm like, you gotta got to brake, you're so close to the car. And my husband will say, I'm not that close. And so as you just said that, I thought, oh my gosh, it probably is also the depth perception in my peripheral.
00:13:20
Lisa
And I can't always see how far I am from things. If you had a background on, I would have asked you to turn it off because all the fun backgrounds give me headaches um and make my eyes hurt.
00:13:30
Sharla Mandere
meet you yeah i don't
00:13:33
Lisa
um So yes, so the driving thing as well, but with the gymnastics thing, If I was running to get to the springboard, right, that you have to hit before you vault, my steps would get really small as I got closer and mounts on bars and then on beam mounts and dismounts. So as she was asking me, well, did you have problems with those things? And like, yes, all the time. And no matter what, even if I had a chalk mark for a beam dismount, it still either ended up going too far from the end of the beam or
00:14:06
Lisa
into like off the end of the beam and I had some crazy beam dismount injuries and and I get it now because I would look and my eyes would see the ball the end of the beam being this close and really it was probably this far or the opposite and so I would compromise I would overcompensate because my eyes were telling my brain danger where you're too far you're too close
00:14:20
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:14:29
Lisa
which is probably why I loved uneven bars and floor, because other than the mount, I hated mounts on uneven bars, but besides the mount, everything made sense.
00:14:29
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:14:37
Lisa
And so it makes a lot of sense for me now, like why those were my two favorite events. They also became my two best events. And so it's just interesting because I didn't know, I just knew, I didn't even realize I had to try harder.
00:14:53
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:14:53
Lisa
But the therapist, the vision therapist said, wow, all that resilience that you built,
00:14:57
Lisa
And I look back on it now and I think, huh, I didn't know. But now that I know, how can I help someone else? And I had mentioned I had gone back into the gym I trained at, because we were talking about the corollary error and all that. And um and so I trained at Parkettes. And I went in, and the coach's daughter is now one of the head coaches. And I saw this gymnast like struggling with their getting as they got closer to the the springboard, their steps changed. And I had asked them, does this happen all the time?
00:15:26
Lisa
And they said, yes. And so then I asked the coach, do you remember, cause we grew up together and I said, do you remember how I would fall? She's like, Oh my God. Yeah. And I said, well, I think she might have a visual processing problem and I don't know what it is. I'm not a vision therapist. So I always direct people to the experts, but I was like, here's what I did and here's what's going on. And she's like, Oh my God, I wonder if that would help her. And she was only 14. So she still had several years, whether it was in private club or in college to try to get change. And it just felt so good to be able to give back even in that regard.
Behavior as Communication in Education
00:16:02
Lisa
So when I think about the work that I do, it's really just to help others like me not go through all the things I went through growing up as a parent, as an individual. um and And moms, I think we struggle more than anyone because we just want to help fix and fix and fix.
00:16:22
Lisa
And all the resources helped me help them solve me coddling and enabling and doing things for them. My kids call me out on it now. They're like, mom, you gotta stop. And I'm like, well, you take advantage of it when I do it. They're like, well, of course, cause you're offering it. Like, you know, they're honest. I'm like, you little, you know what's, but I'm like, you guys are brats, you know? And why don't you say to me, how can I help mom? You don't need to do it. But really to me, the message in that is I wasn't really helping them.
00:16:52
Lisa
by By doing it for them, they needed to figure out how to fail, but I needed to give them a safe place to do it.
00:16:59
Sharla Mandere
Yeah. I think there's such, there is, like you said, such a resiliency in that and in your story as, as a gymnast of like, and if people are not gymnasts listening to this, like obviously if you've ever watched, you know, the Olympics or anything and they, they show their feet on the beam one inch on the beam or the vault or even the bars, right?
00:17:23
Sharla Mandere
you is a major injury, one inch off on that beam and you can land on your head.
00:17:29
Lisa
Yeah.
00:17:30
Sharla Mandere
So it's insane to me that you were able to, without knowing what was going on, just the coping that whatever it is that you had to do to, to change the way you trained and to get to the level that you got at to do that.
00:17:45
Sharla Mandere
It's, it's insane. So what we were talking about when we, when we like pre Kind of talked about this call is and i think we're kind of into this a little bit is talking about how behavior is communication.
00:17:58
Lisa
who
00:17:58
Sharla Mandere
Right behavior of the child but also the behavior of the school of the school district the behavior of the other kids and we talked about that a little with your son and the friends that were like just don't follow us around the playground right.
00:18:10
Sharla Mandere
but your son was basically saying, this was communication. I was trying to connect with you. I was trying to find a way to make friends and they were communicating like, no, you're weird. Go away, right?
00:18:21
Sharla Mandere
With their behavior.
00:18:21
Lisa
yeah
00:18:22
Sharla Mandere
So I love because I think as a society, we tend to look at the behavior of the kids instead of the reason behind the behavior.
00:18:23
Lisa
Yeah.
00:18:33
Sharla Mandere
And that's probably part of my issue with traditional schools. Now, especially having to pull my daughter from school because her behavior was telling us that things were not good and safe for her, right?
00:18:46
Lisa
Mm-hmm. Great.
00:18:51
Sharla Mandere
I mean, at one point she jumped out of my car as it was moving. I was in the driveway, but the car was moving and she and was in a ah fit and and not wanting to go to school. And she jumped out of my car as I was driving it.
00:19:04
Sharla Mandere
And it was scary. And my husband and I looked at each other and said, no more. no more. We cannot force this child. She's going to get hurt, right?
00:19:13
Lisa
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:13
Sharla Mandere
But like also if it's this big of a fear, what is happening for her that she cannot get herself to school in a way that felt good.
00:19:20
Lisa
Right.
00:19:24
Lisa
Yeah.
00:19:26
Sharla Mandere
And, and there was a lot going on.
00:19:26
Lisa
Yeah.
00:19:29
Lisa
Absolutely. And I think we talked about this before, not today, but um in the last conversation you had in general, both of my kids are in private schools now for different reasons.
00:19:41
Lisa
And um my youngest, the one, the ADHD and anxiety, If you look at my website, there's a picture of a kid laying on their back like this, literally with a computer on their face. That was that child, my youngest son, during COVID online schooling. He couldn't even show up, let alone access things. And it was really bad. And and so we made that choice then to to move him. My older son actually asked. He wanted a different type of environment. He didn't want to be taught by a textbook.
00:20:14
Lisa
That's not how he learned. He's a very nonlinear thinker. He needed to have lots of different ways, people that were gonna you know meet him where he was.
00:20:17
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:20:23
Lisa
And so the behavior, to me, behavior, just like a diagnosis, behavior informs how you talk about things. It doesn't define who a person is.
00:20:35
Lisa
Like you said, the reasons behind the behavior are really critical, but what often happens is reaction to behavior leads to the outcome instead of curiosity around the behavior leading to a solution.
Inclusive Learning Environments
00:20:58
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:20:59
Lisa
you know and And so that's where my ripe ideas, like you mentioned ripe ideas, um the framework that I created, it's reflect, implement, practice, evaluate.
00:21:11
Lisa
So it's really a learner centric framework. It's for all people because we can be of support with one another. And I truly believe that if you implement inclusivity and you're really coming from a place of curiosity, you do end up being in collaboration with one another instead of at each other's opposite ends of you know the spectrum.
00:21:31
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:21:34
Lisa
And and you know just it's really amazing when somebody opens their ears and let's go with a judgment, what you can find out.
00:21:45
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:21:45
Lisa
I've had clients, what i'll use I won't use a client, I'll use my own my my youngest, my oldest son. His behavior was so bad at one point that some people were like, oh, it's a behavioral problem, or you know it's just social, or it's just this, but when you tied it all together, neither one of my kids' diagnoses were easy, like we had to go through lots of different things.
00:22:05
Lisa
But the teacher said, He's the reason that my assistant teacher got sick. So the year prior's teacher, the three and four-year-old teacher, instead of like said, OK, I'm going to take him back in my class on the days that our shadow wasn't there to help him because this other teacher can't handle him. None of the behaviors were there. He was a model peer. He was a mentor for these other kids. And it was a few things. one
00:22:37
Lisa
The room wasn't overstimulating. He had ah his auditory and visual processing disorder as well. And so visual input was wherever stimulating. The auditory was just imploding him and causing dysregulation. And the teacher was speaking at him, not giving him time to regulate. And this other teacher was treating him, meeting him where he was, treating him as they they should have, collaborating with us, not blaming anyone.
00:23:05
Lisa
Realizing the behavior was communication, like we were talking about just now, and shocking. He never had those issues in the classroom that wasn't the one that the teacher said that there he was the reason their assistant teacher got sick. Now that should, no teacher should ever tell a child or their parents that their behavior is the reason. Now, this is also a teacher whose child themselves got kicked out of middle school.
00:23:35
Lisa
because of their behavior. And so you know I found these things some of these things out later. My point of all this is people do things for whatever reasons. This person's also now teaching people how to work with kids to regulate them like my child, but they couldn't work with them when they were a preschool teacher. So anybody can pretend to be an expert in something, but everyone can't pretend to be real.
00:24:04
Sharla Mandere
Yeah, yeah. No, and that makes me so angry. First of all, like to say that is is just ridiculous. And like, yeah, that that is speaks to the gaslighting that schools will do sometimes, right? And this is where parents feel like we're going crazy because there is, you feel gaslit where they will talk a good game and they'll make things sound like sense and they'll say they're doing all these things, but your child is the problem. And I get so angry because that's what was happening to us. She was school avoidant.
00:24:40
Sharla Mandere
And, and it was like, somehow they, they thought we were like, Oh, you don't feel like going to school. That's fine. Let's go to the beach. You know, we live in San Diego, so let's take a beach day.
00:24:48
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:49
Sharla Mandere
Let's take a, you know, my child was vomiting in the car in the parking lot of the school because she couldn't get in because she just didn't feel good there. Right.
00:24:58
Lisa
And they didn't want to hear that.
00:24:58
Sharla Mandere
i
00:24:59
Lisa
They didn't want to hear they were part of the problem.
00:25:01
Sharla Mandere
No. And it it is very much this gaslighting that schools do. i and And that's where we're we're talking about you have to trust your gut and trust your intuition as a parent of knowing, OK, is my child struggling?
00:25:12
Sharla Mandere
Yes. Are the behaviors happening? Yes.
Self-awareness and Emotional Challenges in Parenting
00:25:14
Sharla Mandere
But what like is it getting curious about it? And why?
00:25:17
Lisa
here
00:25:18
Sharla Mandere
And you know if I had a job that felt as toxic, which I have had jobs that felt as toxic as this school felt to my child when she was in fifth grade,
00:25:29
Sharla Mandere
I would as an adult I would quit that job right which I did I quit that corporate job because I literally at one point was standing outside of the building and I thought if I run really hard at the building I might at the very least break my arm and I could get a few days off work.
00:25:29
Lisa
who
00:25:33
Lisa
yeah yeah
00:25:48
Sharla Mandere
And then I was like, that's not normal. Like, that's not okay.
00:25:52
Lisa
Yeah, right, right, right.
00:25:54
Sharla Mandere
I shouldn't be thinking if I injure myself, like, get out of work for a few days.
00:25:56
Lisa
yeah Right, right.
00:25:59
Sharla Mandere
Like, I get not wanting to go to work, but this was a different level of it, right? And and and at that point I was like, I've got it. I've got to get out of here. You know, I directed i direct and work with kids in theater and choreographing and all of that.
00:26:11
Sharla Mandere
And I was choreographing a show a number of years ago and it was middle school. So I had these group of eighth grade girls and were tap dancing and doing all this stuff. And they went to school together and they were all in the show together and they did not get along.
00:26:22
Sharla Mandere
And I'm big on like the arts are supposed to bring people together. The arts create empathy and understanding, but also you need to be a team on stage. in order for the show to be any kind of good because if there is drama backstage, it's going to show up on stage. And so I spent a lot of time with these 13 and 14 year old girls sitting in a circle trying to get them to connect. And I can see there was one girl that they were all getting up on a lot. And she kept in this circle time like me too she was trying to connect with them i could see that she was desperately trying to be their friend and they just got on this bandwagon of no wanting no part of it you know and the director came to me at one point and was like you're supposed to be tap dancing with them why are you doing you know it's not therapy and i was like no it's not it's not therapy but they do need to learn to get along and i kept saying If you can just accept, you don't have to be best friends, you can just accept each other.
00:26:54
Lisa
Yeah. yeah
00:27:04
Lisa
Yeah.
00:27:11
Lisa
yeah
00:27:13
Sharla Mandere
Life is going to be better. I was trying to life lesson them, right?
00:27:15
Lisa
yes Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:17
Sharla Mandere
Like life is going to be better when we can get along and try to understand each other. I'm trying to bring you to a point here of finding some kind of common ground with each other so that you can then, you know, be better just in general in life, but also for the purpose of the show on stage two.
00:27:35
Sharla Mandere
The director ended up trying to shut it all down and I had to, you know, and Ed did have to spend time teaching them to tap dance, you know, so they could go on stage and do it.
00:27:42
Lisa
Right.
00:27:44
Sharla Mandere
But I spent a lot of time, because I could see this one girl, and they were all getting up on her, and she was just trying to connect.
00:27:51
Lisa
Yeah.
00:27:51
Sharla Mandere
And I ended up working with this girl about four years later, and then she was like a senior in high school, and she was so much, and like really mentoring these middle schoolers that were also in the show, and she just,
00:28:02
Sharla Mandere
that man, you came so far. And she was like, no, that was really helpful. What you did, because I learned how to communicate a little bit better. And I learned that I was just trying to connect, but I had to do different ways.
00:28:14
Lisa
here And now she was paying it forward and helping others can connect.
00:28:16
Sharla Mandere
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:18
Lisa
And that's really what this is all about. Like, you know, when, when you and I were talking and even just thinking here today, I feel like we are both in different ways paying it forward.
00:28:29
Lisa
And we don't have to truly understand each other to appreciate each other's perspectives and to show empathy.
00:28:33
Sharla Mandere
heard Yeah.
00:28:39
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:28:39
Lisa
You know, people always talk about, Oh, well, I cue this, I cue that.
00:28:42
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:28:42
Lisa
And I'm like, IQ can be whatever, but if you don't have EQ and you can't meet somebody where they are and at least try to understand their perspective, body language speaks volumes.
00:28:53
Lisa
If you're rolling your eyes, that's also behavior.
00:28:56
Sharla Mandere
yeah
00:28:56
Lisa
If you're shunning people, if you're, you know, how how you speak to others. If you yourself have a child that's struggling and yet you're sitting over here going, what is wrong with this other child?
00:29:09
Lisa
then you need to look within because maybe people are not engaging with you because you're not engaging with them. It's not always about that other person. Sometimes the actions are our actions. And the really difficult thing was like I was saying, I was enabling my kids and I had to realize, wow, I really was enabling them. Like that's not helpful for them. But really I thought I was just being a caregiver and helpful. However,
00:29:37
Lisa
Fast forward to a couple of years ago when I went into full burnout and finally got a therapist for myself. She's like, yeah know you're not being a caregiver. You're being a people pleaser. She's like, you're fawning. You're in trauma brain. You want everything to be good and happy and healthy because you were gas lit and you were in these toxic environments and manipulative environments and you don't want anyone else to feel that way, but you're not helping yourself by doing those things, nor are you helping them. And so i I say now I'm a recovering people pleaser because I still have to pause over explaining. Like you were saying, I was doing that. What I was realizing too was some of that was my social anxiety. I didn't want that quiet time because I didn't know what to say. So in my anxiety induced state, I was just constantly talking.
00:30:29
Lisa
But then when someone didn't like what I said, then I was a people pleaser. So I was just like digging myself a deeper hole without realizing it and nobody was reaching out and saying, pause, breathe.
00:30:41
Lisa
What is causing me to act this way?
00:30:44
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:30:44
Lisa
And instead it was like everything got brushed under the rug when we were growing up. So like, I've got this moose that I have and I always say the moose on the table, cause the elephant in the room is what we grew up with, brushed under the rug, talk about it and then make it disappear.
00:30:57
Lisa
But the elephant in the room, you bring it up, you have the conversation like we're having here, you learn something from it, and then you do better because you know better.
00:31:09
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:31:09
Lisa
And then others can also be better. And that's really, to me, like when you think about the behaviorist communication and trusting your gut, and then the being proactive, reach out to people like you and I.
00:31:22
Lisa
like I know this isn't the end of us connecting. It might be a year or six months or whatever before we talk again, but I know that you're there and everyone's not going to be there for everyone.
00:31:29
Sharla Mandere
Mm hmm.
00:31:33
Lisa
But I know, I know even more now than when I talked to you last time and then the take one that you, you're one of my people, but everybody I talk to all the, I do a lot of podcasts.
00:31:34
Sharla Mandere
Yeah.
00:31:43
Lisa
I call myself a guest podcast or a podcast person. And I don't always connect with the people that I'm meeting with. And I may never talk to some of them again. But in that moment in time, it taught me something. And i you know I think that if I could tell people to take away anything, it's just realize that behavior is communication. And you never know what someone else is going through.
Proactive Advocacy for Neurodiverse Children
00:32:07
Lisa
But you also don't know sometimes subconsciously what you're going through.
00:32:12
Sharla Mandere
Yeah, yeah, 100%. So real quick, because we need to wrap up, how can parents and moms be like proactive for their kids. And we're as we're recording this, you know, we've just had an election, our education system is potentially going to go through a ton of changes come January.
00:32:32
Sharla Mandere
So, how can parents, especially parents with neurodivergent kids, maybe ones who have an IEP, a 504, how can you be proactive to protect our kids? And I know this is probably a loaded question. We don't have 30 more minutes.
00:32:43
Sharla Mandere
so
00:32:43
Lisa
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. and And we could certainly, I'd love to do another conversation with you, but in the short term, how do you do it?
00:32:47
Sharla Mandere
yeah
00:32:50
Lisa
You connect with people, someone like me, whether it's in your area or not in your area, because many of us can talk across state lines, um and and just do your homework.
00:33:04
Lisa
don't just listen to everything that's happening on Facebook or Twitter or whatever it's called, X it's called, I guess now, right, or Insta or, you know, look below the layers of the outsides of the book covers because there are truly things happening that are good and there are things happening that aren't good. And some people that live in my state, Maryland, think our state is like the worst with schooling, but then I look at things in some organizations I'm a part of and I think, oh my gosh, our state is actually doing okay in some regards. so and Find out what is out there for your kids. um If you're in a state that has school choice, maybe going to a charter or a magnet school, you don't think you can afford it. You don't know what type of funding is there. are Where I am, we don't have that option. We've looked into it. It's not there. But in some states, those things are there. So look at what's available to you in your local state and then take it from there. And if you can't figure it out,
00:33:58
Lisa
One of the things that I help people with is figuring out what they know, what they don't know, what they don't know, they don't know. And sometimes that's about finding resources in their local area, figuring out how to ask the questions. And if you're not getting anywhere with a school team and you really need to, then consider bringing in an outside consultant or advocate because it doesn't make you less than, it actually makes you more powerful.
00:34:24
Lisa
because then you have someone else on your side and it's not you against the school team even though you're supposed to be all one team.
00:34:30
Sharla Mandere
Well, and I will say that like, and when we, once I had an advocate and and like I have friends too, we've all kind of used the same lady and it is like, you're getting gaslit. You're getting gassed. You've been told this is just the way it is. And then you bring an advocate who knows the law, who is not afraid to be a jerk because you're still as a parent, probably trying to play the game with the school so that your kid doesn't get targeted, which happened to my older daughter. My older daughter got targeted when my youngest, we had to advocate for her. So this advocate comes in and she's not afraid to be a,
00:34:57
Sharla Mandere
pitchch in there, right? She's not afraid to lay it down and just call them out and say it as it is. And things changed. And so if you're struggling as a parent to move those mountains for your kid, you don't know the law and you don't know it.
00:35:10
Sharla Mandere
And I have in season one, there's two full episodes on the IEP and 504 process. And one thing that it's another Lisa, Lisa, right, said is, um you know, everything in the IEP world is acronyms.
00:35:21
Lisa
Yes, yes, yes.
00:35:22
Sharla Mandere
So there's, you know, there's IEP, 504, IDEA, all this stuff, you know, SAI, all of this stuff and it's all acronyms and it's a language we don't speak. It's like talking to a brain surgeon and he's talking about your brain and you're like, I don't, what part am I going to lose my ability to walk?
00:35:31
Lisa
Right. Right.
00:35:34
Lisa
Right.
00:35:35
Sharla Mandere
No, we're not even near that part of the brain, right?
00:35:37
Lisa
Exactly.
00:35:37
Sharla Mandere
So like it's not common sense to us. So bringing on someone that knows this stuff and knows what they're talking about because they're not going to explain it to you. They're just not, I was on, I held two PTA positions. I was on school site council and district advisory committee, and I still got gaslit and lied to and they effed with my kids.
00:35:58
Lisa
who And I take it from a little bit of a different angle.
00:35:58
Sharla Mandere
so um
00:36:02
Lisa
I mean, I do have background with the law. Um, I come from a place of in collaboration, like I'm there for the parents because they've hired me. in collaboration with the school on behalf of the child. We're there for the child. So let's meet them where they are. Let's figure out, ask the questions to uncover what's really going on. If we need to go to the law pieces of it, we will. But I always believe that honey is better than vinegar, that old savage saying, right? But in in some regards, it is. Now sometimes, do you have to get strong? And yes, but I know at least where we are, I don't throw the law in someone's face
00:36:40
Lisa
unless we absolutely have to. And sometimes we can get there further or faster without it, but sometimes they have their hands cuffed too. And you need to to stand strong for the parent. The other piece of it is you're taking the emotion out of it. Like I love all my clients and their kids, like they're my own. I get very like engaged with them, but I ah but i can always let them go home at the end of the day. They're not mine. So the objectivity of just having that extra person And sometimes I find for even the school side, oftentimes they'll go, well, I'm really glad that you were here because you brought us some things that we hadn't even thought about.
00:37:15
Lisa
That's when I know I'm working with an actual team and not two separate cohorts.
00:37:18
Sharla Mandere
yeah Yeah, it's to be able to bring everyone together as a team.
00:37:23
Lisa
Yeah.
00:37:23
Sharla Mandere
Okay, man, we are out of time, unfortunately, but this has been so great.
00:37:25
Lisa
Hello.
00:37:27
Sharla Mandere
And I love talking to you and getting to know you and hearing your story and getting to know you. Thank you so much, Lisa.
00:37:32
Lisa
Thank you.
00:37:32
Sharla Mandere
And I know that. So we'll have in the show notes, but how can people find you real fast if they want more info?
00:37:38
Lisa
Yep. Journey to bloom dot.com. J O U R N E Y. The number two bloom dot.com. Or you can find me on LinkedIn or on Facebook.
00:37:48
Lisa
Lisa Lazar. L A Z A R lasting richer. R R I C H E R.
00:37:55
Sharla Mandere
Awesome. All right. Thank you so much.
00:37:56
Lisa
Okay. Thank you so much.
00:37:58
Sharla Mandere
This was golden and yeah, and we will see you in the next episode.
00:37:59
Lisa
I appreciate it. Okay. Wonderful. Thank you. Take care.