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With Craig Dyer
62 Plays3 years ago
Today we hear from Craig Dyer about how the popular Christianity Explored courses have adapted to life in a pandemic. How can we best use these evangelistic tools, still make connections online, and meet people where they're at during a difficult period for us all? Craig also shares about the unique opportunities his home church in Glasgow has to reach out to asylum seekers.
Craig Dyer is the Training Director for Christianity Explored, where he provides evangelism training for gospel-hearted churches around the world by developing a network of qualified trainers. Prior to this position, having graduated from Irish Baptist College in Belfast, he served as Pastor of Bellshill Baptist Church for just under 6 years and Harper Church in the south side of Glasgow for 13 years. He still serves there as an Associate Pastor. Craig and his wife Margaret have three daughters.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Kristy and as ever I'm joined by the man, the myth, the legend, Andy Bannister himself. Andy, hello, how are you? I'm convinced, Kristy, that the introductions get more and more exotic the later in the afternoon
Pandemic's Impact on Evangelism
00:00:24
Speaker
we get. We have a busy afternoon recording and every time it's got more impressive. But thank you and really, really great to be with you today as ever.
00:00:33
Speaker
Oh, good. I'm glad because we have a really great guest joining us as ever. Craig Dyer. Craig, welcome to the show. Hi there, Kristy. Hi, Andy. Great to be with you. So glad that you are with us. We were just chatting before the show as to how we can introduce you well because you're up to so much. Well, firstly, you're based just outside of Glasgow. You're an associate pastor, aren't you, at Harper Church? That's right.
00:00:59
Speaker
And for about 13 years or so, you are the training director of Christianity Explored Ministries. That's exactly what I'm doing at the moment, yes. I mean, at the moment, that which shall not be named continues to rage on a pace, doesn't it? How has that affected your role at Christianity Explored? What new opportunities has that opened up for you? Oh, wow. My goodness. My wings have been absolutely clipped, Christy, this last year.
00:01:28
Speaker
Strangely, I started 2020 out in the Far East, doing a conference in Kuala Lumpur with a couple of thousand Chinese pastors last January, so that was a hot ticket. We weren't thinking about an odd way to do it, an odd way to go, but it was an immense privilege to go and serve these guys. Just in a small way, really, but it was a huge joy. Then I came back and
00:01:51
Speaker
I think my family and friends thought I was being a crank when I said I wanted just to be playing it safe and isolate for five days. But now then that's become the pattern for everybody. And that was me for the year. And so just like you guys, the work of Solas, we've moved as much as we can online. And yeah, I mean, it's been remarkable to see how the Lord in His kindness has allowed us still to use these opportunities.
Church Focus on Evangelism
00:02:18
Speaker
I think Andy and I have talked about this before on other things that we've done, but a glorious thing when Paul talks about the word not being bound, and that's been our experience. We've had opportunities to go online and to do some training and to just encourage people, try to give the believers a bit of a vision as to how we can use these days when people are desperately looking for answers. But I'm doing it all from the front room instead of traveling around the world.
00:02:48
Speaker
One of the bizarre things is that at 2.15 tomorrow morning, when the rest of you in the UK, I hope, are all safely tucked up in bed, I'll be starting a conference at 10.15 in the morning in Singapore. You have to get up at some bizarre hour of the night and do that kind of thing. But nonetheless, it's a huge privilege to be able to serve in that way.
00:03:11
Speaker
I love the enthusiasm and energy that you have, Craig, even though these are difficult times. I suppose a question that leads me to is, I know there's a temptation right now for churches to maybe think, you know, we just need to keep the lights on. We need to just keep our Sunday morning services streaming. We just need to keep the thing crunching forward. And evangelism, what we'll think about that in the summer, we'll think about that
00:03:35
Speaker
you know, in the autumn when we're out the other side of this. But I get the sense that you'd be saying to somebody like that, no, no, no, there's opportunities right now. How could we perhaps use, you know, Christianity for the Lord? Yeah, I mean, I totally recognize that description, Andy, because I think that's normal for churches. There's always a reason why evangelism is not the time for evangelism. There's always a reason for that. Because sharing the gospel is so gloriously potent.
00:04:00
Speaker
in terms of advancing the cause of the Lord Jesus. And apart from anything else, it stops the church from becoming trivial. So, I mean, at any level, I think a church who have decided that we just need to focus on keeping the lights on, as you say, just working internally, keeping an eye on each other at the moment.
Integration of Edification and Evangelism
00:04:21
Speaker
I think the way you do that
00:04:25
Speaker
is by keeping the proclamation of the Lord Jesus front and center. Now definitely there are concerns for us. Many pastors will know at the moment the whole spectre of Pajama Church is becoming an enormous challenge and there are people who've got used to it and are quite enjoying the fact that we don't have to rush out with the kids on a Sunday morning. So we do have concerns about the church families and I think that's absolutely reasonable and we've got to address that and do all we can.
00:04:54
Speaker
I never see it in the New Testament in terms of there's these two twin things we have to do, edification and evangelism. I think the two of them belong together. The way that you keep the church safe, the way that you see believers grow in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus is to be an environment where his gospel is being proclaimed so that you're keeping them safe, you're keeping them, so to speak, saved by constantly reminding them of the gospel and at the same time,
Adapting to Online Platforms
00:05:24
Speaker
you're engaging together prayerfully and imaginatively and hopefully winsomely in helping them to reach out to their friends and then to have some corporate ideas about how you might do that.
00:05:38
Speaker
Have you any stories? Have you seen that done well where you are in Glasgow at the moment or elsewhere? What does that look like? Well, I've seen it done. Eternity will reveal whether it was done well or not. But yeah, I mean, it's been a thrill for me actually this year to be in touch with friends across the country who like ourselves have just had a go.
00:06:06
Speaker
So we didn't feel particularly attuned to it. We didn't feel particularly well equipped. You know, we made a real mess of Zoom the first few times we did it and we still do. I mean, I was leading our Zoom fellowship on Sunday night for the pre-meeting and made it a real
00:06:24
Speaker
botch of the whole thing. So that can still happen. We actually had a male stripper appear one night on the stream. As far as I know, nobody booked the guy, but there he was doing his thing. And I was supposed to be riding shotgun and looking after security. And this guy got on somehow. So I mean, there's all that. Everybody's got stories to tell.
00:06:48
Speaker
But what we did was we just said, well, look, this is going to be slightly uncomfortable. We're not all technical wizards. We don't all feel hugely able in this area, but the stakes are so high. We've got to be reaching out with the glorious news of the gospel at a time when people are, you know, and I don't even need to go into the details of describing it because we're talking about all the time. We're just so conscious of death.
00:07:16
Speaker
of the uncertainty of life, of how things change. I noticed the BBC today had a nice thing, a kind of pastoral warmth before the 1 o'clock news that said the future is not cancelled. And it was their kind of way of just trying to calm people who are facing anxiety. And that's a lovely message. But the trouble is the future is so uncertain. And that's what the last year has taught us. And therefore, we've got this glorious opportunity to do something. So we go out with our two loaves and a few fish.
Starting with Christianity Explored Online
00:07:46
Speaker
five loaves and two fish and we we say right it's not much but Lord you take you take our efforts and and let's see what we can do and so it's been lovely it's a long answer sorry about that but it's been lovely to hear I like that the one thing I'd add Craig here in Dundee we would take our loaves and fish deep pat fry them first well absolutely well and in Glasgow if you were going to deep fry them you'd have to get rid of the Mars bars first but yeah definitely you would do that
00:08:13
Speaker
So just having a crack at it, and everybody I've talked to has done it, has been surprised by how much joy they got from it. Just by the joy and the privilege and the help the Lord gave them and the relationships they built. And I've heard testimonies of people saying they were not at all sure that they should be involved with these weird Christians.
00:08:35
Speaker
and yet they found them to be such a cheerful, positive, kind, winsome group, and they listened to them. So, yeah, I think it's all of that. It's not to do with having terrific skills, it's just to do with trusting the Lord, being confident in His Word, and having a go.
00:08:54
Speaker
So in terms of having a go Craig, I mean, it's a good opportunity to sort of, you know, get quite practical here for perhaps, you know, churches or groups who've never played with Christianity Explored as a tool or as a resource, just very practically speaking, how do they get started? Is there somewhere they go? Is there a website? I mean, where would people go to go? Okay, I want to have a go. Yeah, certainly Andy. So we have two websites. Christianityexplored.org is the main outward facing website. So it's resources for
00:09:24
Speaker
our friends who don't know the Lord and you guys have participated in that and given answers to difficult questions and all kinds of things like that. So that's a horrific resource evangelistically. And then we have CEMinistries.org, which is our kind of way of trying to serve the believers and the local churches across the country. And there's loads of information there, there's online training, there's seminars about how you would get going running Christianity Explored on Zoom. And there's
00:09:52
Speaker
opportunities to contact us directly. We try to get back within 24 hours and we often do it in less time than that to try and answer questions and just encourage people in this work. And really in terms of what it is we offer, it's not rocket science. We believe that the power to change lives is in the Word of God. We believe that His Holy Spirit enables us to articulate that gospel and therefore we've just put together, as you know,
00:10:21
Speaker
A set of resources that help believers talk to unbelievers about the Lord Jesus as we go through Mark's Gospel. And what we're doing is just praying as we go through a series of discussions, question and answers on Mark's Gospel, listening to or watching a video film. We're just praying that, as we often say, the Lord Jesus will walk off the pages of that gospel into their lives because we really are all about Him and we're all about the Word.
00:10:49
Speaker
and we're just looking for opportunities to get people's noses into the Bible and for them to discover that it's not the closed book they thought it was.
Inviting Friends to Online Sessions
00:10:58
Speaker
But there's lots of help there for folks if they want to have a crack at it.
00:11:05
Speaker
I think that's one of the many reasons that Andy and I just love what you're doing, Craig. It's just wonderful. Thank you so much for all of your hard work in resourcing and equipping us like this. Knowing that at the moment we're largely online, we aren't seeing friends face to face.
00:11:24
Speaker
Well, how can we as just individual Christians in our ones, maybe twos, in households, what would you think it might look like for us to go about inviting a friend or a colleague to one of these online Christianity Explored courses or meetings? Yeah, I mean, I think that the way you frame that, Christie, is so key for us to realise that
00:11:49
Speaker
Though there are great opportunities, nonetheless, we are significantly disadvantaged by the fact that people are not going to experience the local church at the moment. They're not really going to be in the company of Christians. Now, they will get that to some degree online on the Zoom call or on the Google Meet, or whatever you use.
00:12:14
Speaker
But it's not the same. And I am a great believer that they hear the gospel from the church, but they also see the gospel in the church. And so that sense of drawing people into real life community is absolutely essential. And so though I'm an enormous advocate of using the opportunities and using the digital platforms, I think that's wonderful that we can do that. I would always want to say, but where possible,
00:12:43
Speaker
Well, let's let's not shift everything online. Let's make sure that we also as much as we can give opportunity for people to come and experience what it is like to be among Christians, because it's a huge apologetic for the gospel when there is a when there are people whose lives have been transformed to the Lord and who just can just express his love to
Living the Gospel Authentically
00:13:05
Speaker
others. So that's massive. But I think then beyond that, it's a matter of I guess we have different
00:13:12
Speaker
types of relationship in our lives and we will have some people with whom we have a sufficiently strong relationship that they trust us and it might be a matter of saying to them, you know that I love the Lord and you and I have never really had a chance to talk about this and I know this is a bit awkward and I don't want you to make you feel awkward but
00:13:38
Speaker
I know you're not doing much. You're watching repeats of friends. Why don't you, would you come for an hour? Would you just come for an hour and just come for one night and see what it is I'm talking about? Because I would love, I'd love to be able to talk to you about that. You know, that might be the kind of conversation you would have with a friend that acknowledges, look, this is a bit awkward. So we're not, we're not seen to be completely clueless as to how that sounds, but
00:14:07
Speaker
There's a warmth and there's a kindness behind it. There's a genuine desire to serve that person and to let them know that we're for them. And we'd love to introduce them to our best friend and for them to see the Lord Jesus. I think things like that are helpful. And then there will be other circumstances where we have people in our lives and they bump along for years and they don't seem to pay any attention to what we're seeing, but then something happens.
00:14:35
Speaker
they have a loved one in ICU or worse they lose a loved one and the change of circumstances changes the relationship and we would never want to be opportunist but nonetheless we can draw alongside and lovingly, wisely, prayerfully seek to be a friend to them in that context when so many others don't know what to say don't know how to handle it just say silly things about death
00:15:07
Speaker
we can draw alongside and have some substance to that. So there's just a couple of examples that come to mind in terms of just trying to see where we are. And then there will always be the exceptional circumstances, the people we bump into or we're not doing so much bumping into these days, obviously, but the people that we just encountered in life somehow at some point out of the blue, apparently,
00:15:33
Speaker
And you just never know who's praying for them. You just never know what grandmother they had or what influence they had in their life. And they might be far away from the Lord and appear to be totally disinterested, but there might be a little group praying for them every day. You just don't know. So you have a crack at it. And I think just having a way to have a kind of radar in your radar screen in your life and be thinking about, well, where are people and where am I with them and where are they in terms of where is our relationship in terms of articulating the gospel
00:16:02
Speaker
I think the other thing as well, Craig, I wonder as well, is that while yes, in some ways, you know, opportunities for interaction are restricted right now because of lockdown, we've also got more than we more than we realize. You know, we still see our neighbors. We still bump into people, you know, as we're out and about, you know, my wife, who has all the great ideas in our house, you know, came up with the idea the other month of, you know, delivering random cakes to sort of families that we know locally. Like, you know, the reaction next door is knocked on the door and said, hey, we're just baking chocolate cake.
00:16:32
Speaker
And it was a conversation start. It was like, it's not as good as in-person hospitality, but it's laying all those foundations that we can pick up after lockdown and be, you know, we have a conversation on the doorstep and things. And so I wonder if there's something in looking for those relational opportunities even while there are limits, right? Yeah, no, I think that's beautiful. I just wish you were my neighbour, but...
00:16:57
Speaker
I love chocolate cake. Not that that was the point, but I guess what you're exemplifying there is where there is the desire, where there is the heart for that. The Lord will give you opportunity. You're going to see things. You're going to have ideas. You're going to think about how you can do that. I think it's something to do with the naturalness of it. We've taken as our tagline at CEM, love, live and tell the good news. It's that idea of
00:17:26
Speaker
First of all, loving it for ourselves. First of all, be freshly on a daily basis, just blown away by the grace of God. So that I fly the day off of that and therefore I live it out and therefore I tell it as it overflows, instead of it being a pressure. And I think that's what you're articulating there, Andy.
00:17:49
Speaker
One last thing I guess I wanted to talk about is we do actually have a couple of minutes left.
Supporting Asylum Seekers
00:17:55
Speaker
We've talked a lot about Christianity Explored and your role there, but also as Chrissy said in the introduction, you're also involved in Harper Church there in Glasgow. We were chatting before the show and you were talking about the church there is doing so much in terms of reaching out, but one particular way that it's reaching out right now is in terms of asylum seekers and that whole
00:18:14
Speaker
community. Very briefly Craig, what are you guys doing there? Anything you can share that we've learnt as a church through doing that? It might be helpful to others to have those kind of communities on the doorstep of their churches. Well it's a great example of what I was just talking about there in the sense that the Lord has put our building very near to the Asylum Seeking Processing Centre for the government.
00:18:39
Speaker
were just literally a stone's throw just along the road from them. And so the vast majority, well, obviously all the asylum seekers who come to Glasgow, and that's a fair chunk in the UK come to within a short distance of our door. So we set up a community meal in the days when we could do that. And we got leaflets printed and we made sure that they knew about it. And our friends there at the home office were kind enough to give these leaflets away because we meant that people would come along, they get a warm meal, they could get a welcome
00:19:09
Speaker
We had firstly translators. We were able to help them with some food and clothing. Through lockdown, we tried to help them with data packages and tablets and so on for those who had no way of accessing the internet, which was so essential to them. So we built Friends. It's rather like, remember the
00:19:28
Speaker
The RSPB said if you make a home for the birds, they will come. And it's like that. If you make a home for people, they will come. And we tried to do that. We just said, here is an opportunity on our doorsteps. People are in a desperate situation. They're so lonely. They're away from their family. They're often men on their own with their wife and children back in the countries from which they fled. And we just wanted to be friends to them and build
00:19:57
Speaker
a relationship squarely based on the gospel so that we get to know them and they get to know us. And then we have Christianity explored in several languages now and just little groups have grown from it. The Lord has helped us massively. It may run the risk of sounding idyllic. It is a massive amount of work and Covid has put it into
00:20:24
Speaker
A very different perspective has been much tougher to keep all that afloat. But nonetheless, in God's kindness, we've seen many, many people come to know and trust the Lord and be baptized, the majority of them after they've been given leave to remain. I say that just as a kind of indication that they're not doing it in order to get leave to remain. And we're pretty
Reflecting on Evangelism Efforts
00:20:48
Speaker
cautious about that. But it has been amazing to see this gospel
00:20:52
Speaker
go to the nations on our own doorstep. Craig, it's such an encouragement to hear you share these stories of the wonderful things in which you're involved. You've enthused me no end and really encouraged me as well in my own personal evangelism with my own friends. Thank you so much for your time today and for your wisdom and just such a rich texture that's just so evident in your love for the Lord as you talk about him and sharing him. Thank you so much.
00:21:21
Speaker
Well, it's been my absolute joy, Kristy and Andy, and thank you for all you do for us. You serve us brilliantly with these programs and with all the resources that are available on Solus. We're deeply grateful to you.
00:21:33
Speaker
Thank you ever so much. That's such a kindness for us to hear that. Well, the time is sadly against us. We're now at the end of this episode. Thank you so much for joining us and for listening.
Episode Conclusion
00:21:44
Speaker
Andy and I will be back again in two weeks time for the next episode with another person who knows and loves the Lord and will be able to equip us in our sharing of him. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you in a couple of weeks time. Bye.