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S4E11: Love Is Light, with Hon. Esther Salas RLAW'94
18 Plays1 year ago
Hon. Esther Salas RLAW'94 joins Co-Dean Rose Cuison-Villazor to share her story of growing up in Union City, NJ, attending Rutgers Law School, and the work she is doing as a US District Court Judge for the District of New Jersey. She opens up about the tragedy that befell her family; the legacy of her son, Daniel Anderl; and the inspiration for the scholarships that have been formed in his name.
If you would like to donate to the Daniel Anderl Memorial Scholarship, please click here or visit go.rutgers.edu/DanielAnderlMemorialScholarship.
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Production Manager: Shanida Carter
Series Producer & Editor: Nate Nakao
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction of Judge Esther Salas
00:00:10
Speaker
This is Rose Quezon Villazor, the interim co-dean of Rutgers Law School, and you are listening to the Power of Attorney podcast.
00:00:19
Speaker
Today, I have the distinct honor of speaking with the Honorable Federal District Judge, Judge Esther Salas. Judge Salas is a double Rutgers. She graduated from Rutgers University in New Brunswick in 1991 and graduated from Rutgers Law School in Newark in 1994. Judge Salas, thank you so much for making time for us today. Thank you for having me here
Judge Salas' Early Life and Family
00:00:41
Speaker
today. I very much appreciate it.
00:00:43
Speaker
We like to start off these interviews by talking about a person's origin story. And by that I mean, you know, what is, tell us your backstory, that's backstory that explains who you are, your identity, what motivates you.
00:00:57
Speaker
Well, I'm the youngest of five born to Cuban Mexican immigrants raised primarily by my single mom with a fourth grade education. And I always like to put that in there because I think it speaks to the woman that she was and the things that she taught me as a human being and as a woman. I grew up primarily in Union City, New Jersey, grew up
00:01:24
Speaker
under circumstances that were not, I suppose one would say not ideal, but for me, my experiences helped shape who I am. My mom left my dad in the middle of the night on a red-eye flight from California to New Jersey. She packed a few things she could pack in a suitcase.
00:01:43
Speaker
And as soon as my dad had left the house, we all got on a plane and headed to New Jersey and never looked back. Sadly, now that I know so much about people, what happens to them, trauma, I've come to forgiveness with my dad, but my dad was definitely a product of his own experiences. And my mother was in an abusive relationship for a very long time. And she was left with little to no choice but to leave the way she left.
00:02:13
Speaker
And we arrived in New Jersey, lived with my uncle, a factory worker, and his wife and my aunt. And 11 of us lived in this three bedroom apartment. I slept on a lounge chair, a beach lounge chair that I took out every night from under the bed and got my bed ready every night until my mother was strong enough and had enough support via welfare and other sources to get us an apartment across the street for my uncle.
00:02:42
Speaker
and we lived in the two-bedroom apartment with my mom and my four other siblings till a fire took everything that we had amassed in 1979 and we started all over again and mom had to rebuild her life and rebuild our lives and we ended up living in another section of Union City and surviving the fire and surviving the trauma
00:03:06
Speaker
and going on to all of us graduate college. I was the only one in my family to go to Rutgers undergrad and Rutgers Law School, but I'm very proud of my other siblings. I'm very proud of what they've accomplished in their lives and I'm so very proud of my mother.
00:03:24
Speaker
It sounds like an incredibly supportive and strong and brave woman to seek to escape an abusive relationship and bring her kids with her into another state. Thank you for sharing that. And for you to have grown up in an environment of love with the love of your mother, your uncle, and your family, that says a lot about the importance of family.
Advocacy and Lessons from Mother
00:03:51
Speaker
and the importance of a supportive network. So I could see where you draw some of your strength from your mother. I'm going to tease you a little bit. I read about you that you were a cheerleader.
00:04:07
Speaker
Yeah, I was a Bulldog, Emerson Bulldog cheerleader and used my voice, my deep voice, and probably my sturdy build to be the bottom of that pyramid. So I was the bottom foundation of that pyramid. I'm proud of that. I see. I'll confess, I was also a cheerleader when I was in high school. I was a cheerleader in the 80s. I had big hair. And because I'm small, I was usually at the top of the pyramid. Rub it in, why don't you? Rub it in.
00:04:38
Speaker
Well, it's one of the benefits, the few benefits of being in a petite these days. Well, then, so you mentioned then that you, as we know, you went to Rutgers Law School. Did you imagine that you were going to be a lawyer?
00:04:57
Speaker
You know, I always talk about and, you know, I've come so far in my life in terms of the things that have happened. And I think we're always learning. But I read a book by Oprah Winfrey and Dr. Perry called What Happened to You? And the book really just talks about trauma and the brain and how most of who we are is developed between, you know, zero in utero to six years old.
00:05:23
Speaker
But the experiences that we all have shape the people that we are today. And those are usually during those formative years. And one of the things that I, because mom was on welfare and didn't speak English, I used to have to take off a school when she had to go report. And I could remember taking the bus to Journal Square in Jersey City and walking with mom, standing on the real long lines to get up to see our caseworker.
00:05:51
Speaker
And usually by the time we got up to see the caseworker, the caseworker was exhausted and probably fatigued and overwhelmed as well.
00:06:00
Speaker
and wasn't always so nice to my mom. And those were the days that I think I learned to be an advocate. Those were the days that I learned to speak and be the voice for the voiceless. And my mother was a woman that she didn't use the word impeccable. That's something I use now, but she made it very clear to me that I needed to be respectful and that I needed to use my words and my brain to communicate with people.
00:06:31
Speaker
not the tone or tenor of my voice. And so I learned at an early age, the idea that sometimes you have to advocate for yourself. And that was probably what started my road to law and to being an advocate was those welfare years. And I see that now very clearly. And I am incredibly grateful
00:07:01
Speaker
for those experiences because I think they helped shape the person that I became and the person that I had to become in light of obvious challenges I've had as of late.
00:07:14
Speaker
As you know, I'll be asking you later questions about what it's like for you to sit on the bench and the decisions you have to make that involves people's lives, but I'm struck now by how your experience being raised by a single mother and
00:07:31
Speaker
being on welfare and having to advocate at such a young age for her has indeed impacted your worldview and your view of your experience, your lived experience with the law as seen through your mother's eyes, but also as you saw her and your role there. I'm trying to picture you at that age. I'm reminded of when I used to practice law in New York City, most of my clients were
00:07:55
Speaker
people with limited English proficiency and they were being denied access to health care and hospitals. And I recall that my clients always had to rely on their young children to interpret for them, to interpret these very private health-related matters and the struggle that they went through. And I saw a lot of resilience in there too.
00:08:17
Speaker
but I and I can see that in your in your I hear that in your voice and the way you tell your story so you're right there's all these experiences in our past that shaped who we are and how we see things you know well I'm sorry and I just wanted to add that I you know my mother taught me probably a lesson and the lesson that I have utilized from the bench every day when I was growing up if not every day very often
00:08:44
Speaker
My mother would say... Translation. Esther, you're not better than anyone, but nobody is better than you. And it was that idea of, you know, you treat every single person with respect, and yet you know your own worth, that you want that back as well. And so, you know, I, when she used to say it, when I was younger, I'd roll my eyes and be like, I've heard that before. But, but
00:09:13
Speaker
Those words had such such a powerful and profound meaning in my life, especially as a judicial officer. And so for me, here's this woman that has taught me so much about who I am.
00:09:28
Speaker
so much about how I should treat others and so much about life that can't be learned from any textbook or any classroom or any lecture or podcast or whatever people find now that people choose as their source of information. So, you know, I just, if I'm gushing I am. I'm gushing because I am so very fortunate to be my mother's daughter.
00:09:56
Speaker
Well, tell me about your experience at Rutgers Law School. In what ways did your experience being raised by your mother affect your learning environment or the way that you were understanding the law, what it was like in the classroom?
00:10:13
Speaker
You know, listen, I will be completely honest that my law, my 1L year was a difficult year. I went to Rutgers undergrad, and I was the, you know, I went through EOF and is a fund that allowed people to go to school when
00:10:31
Speaker
The resources at home were not enough and supplemented whatever financial aid we could get at the time. It was a tremendous opportunity for me to get to Rutgers College in New Brunswick and learn how to study.
00:10:48
Speaker
and learn how to survive in such a large setting. And I got very good at it. And by my fourth year at Rutgers, I was doing extremely well and excelling. And then you get to Rutgers Law. And it's a different way of writing. It is a different way of sort of understanding the concepts and trying to
00:11:13
Speaker
trying to present them in a way that is acceptable for professors and acceptable for really the legal field. There was a definite moment of a crisis of
00:11:29
Speaker
of identity, you know, I didn't know if I could do this. And I remember walking in to the Dean at the time, Dean Janice Robinson, and sort of really just sinking into her chair and sobbing and saying, I don't think I'm cut out for this. I don't think this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And having just a total, having just wrestling with self-doubt and security, just not feeling good enough,
00:11:59
Speaker
And Dean Robinson let me get that good cry out and then said, are you done? And I looked at her and.
00:12:08
Speaker
kind of said, yeah. And she said, OK, let's talk about how we're going to fix this. And it was sort of problem solving and figuring out how do I best understand, how do I best read, how do I best comprehend? Am I a visual person? How can I take this information and really
00:12:30
Speaker
Learn and process and digest it and I learned and I got better and I got better and with every day I improved and so did my confidence. And so I
Rutgers' Impact on Judge Salas
00:12:44
Speaker
thought that and again very proud member of the minority student program.
00:12:49
Speaker
And I thank MSP for everything that it has done for me. And it's an incredible program with people that are I think as authentic as you come and realize that there are opportunities and some opportunities need to be at least the doors need to be open for the individual to pave their way.
00:13:14
Speaker
And those are the concepts of sort of those programs like EOF and the minority student program and other programs that, you know, quite frankly, I think are vital to institutions like Rutgers. I completely agree with you. Let me just explain a little bit
00:13:30
Speaker
what MSP is for those unfamiliar with this program. The minority student program is a post admissions program at Rutgers Law School. And our overall goal in MSP is to support students who are, the program is designed to serve students of any race or ethnicity who are members of groups that are underrepresented in the legal profession and who have faced discrimination or overcome social and economic hardships.
00:13:58
Speaker
Many, if not most of our MSP students are first gen students, both first gen in college in the US and then also first gen in law school, which actually is consistent with the student body even today at Rutgers Law School, the general Rutgers Law School student population, about 60% of our students are the first in their family to go to law school.
00:14:21
Speaker
MSP is a big part of who we are at Rutgers, as you have said, Judge, because it really is a program that is designed to help people succeed through academic tutoring and support, but also to help students find jobs in the summertime. And we're proud of it. It's been around for more than 50 years. And we've led to distinguished alumni like you, Judge. And we appreciate that you continue to support this program.
00:14:51
Speaker
So it's what your story about what you said about struggling with law school, that's fairly common. Many, many students don't know what law school is like. And it's great to hear that the Dean supported you and said, hey, listen, you know, I hear you and now let's figure out how we can make this work. And I'm glad that you got that. Do you see yourself now in that role? And now, you know, you're a judge and you have law clerks working for you, interns. What is that like from that perspective? You know,
00:15:22
Speaker
I take it very seriously, my role as a judge and as a mentor to a lot of the law students that service law clerks and interns.
00:15:31
Speaker
And one of the things we do now is we have a very well-developed internship program where we monitor the interns, we give them constructive criticism, we give them redline versions of what they're submitting. And at the end, my law clerks come up with a very comprehensive evaluation that I get to sit down with them and sort of talk about
00:15:52
Speaker
personal qualities and professional competence. We go over in great detail what we saw that they did right, what we think they could definitely improve on. It is an opportunity for us to try to help this individual with the next phase of their academic career and beyond. For me, that's a long way of saying that I realized that it takes interest, it takes time,
00:16:22
Speaker
It takes a truly loving compassion to want to help people elevate themselves on different levels. And that is what Dean Robinson showed me in that moment where I was vulnerable, and I was raw, and I was having a crisis with confidence. And that moment in time changed the trajectory of my life.
00:16:51
Speaker
Because I don't think if we would have had that support, would have had that connection, would have had that true authentic concern, then I could have walked out of that room and quit law school. And I don't know where I would be today. So I really think that we as human beings have the power to change people's lives. And it really all starts with caring enough to listen, to be present with that person,
00:17:21
Speaker
and to really express confidence even when that person perhaps lacks confidence in themselves.
00:17:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's absolutely right. There's power in listening and being empathetic. And that's what Dean Robinson, that's how she treated you with respect, with empathy, and she listened to you and gave you the confidence that you needed. I'm glad that she did. I'm trying to imagine now you as a law student, what was your favorite class in law school?
Career Path in Criminal Law
00:17:53
Speaker
A criminal law. Oh, OK. Definitely. Definitely. That was that's sort of where I found my stride. I actually, through the program, got placed at the Essex County Prosecutor's Office.
00:18:04
Speaker
And at the appellate section, that's where I honed my writing skills. I stood up. They let us argue municipal appeals. I watched phenomenal lawyers on their feet trying cases and really caught the bug, if you will, for work in the criminal law sector. And I went on to become a criminal defense attorney.
00:18:31
Speaker
But I think that's where the love and the passion and sort of that's where it was born.
00:18:35
Speaker
So yes, after law school, you clerked for Judge Eugene Cody Jr., and then you did private practice for a couple of years, and then you became a federal public defender. Well, you said criminal law. I'm curious why at that time in your life, in your career, you chose public defender instead of working for a prosecutor's office. That's a great story. One that I will
00:19:02
Speaker
Let's see. I wanted to be a prosecutor. You know, we all plan our lives and we sort of have it all worked out, especially if you're a reformed control freak as I am. I have now formed control freaks anonymous. So if anyone is interested in joining, we're going to have...
00:19:20
Speaker
some meetings that will hold, but yes, as a reformed control freak, I definitely back then was probably at the height of my controlling and perhaps false ideals that I could control life and that life would conform to my will and my desires. But I had planned a certain course and without getting into very much detail, I'll just say this,
00:19:49
Speaker
the prosecutor at the time was unwilling to interview me because of some personal issues or some issues he was having with my judge. And so despite the fact that I worked at the Essex County Prosecutor's Office my entire law school career,
00:20:09
Speaker
because I was asked back. I was one of two asked back, argued, I don't know how many municipal appeals and wrote close to over 20 appellate briefs. I was not given the job. I was not given an opportunity.
00:20:22
Speaker
And so I found myself out of a clerkship with no job. And my entire plan A was crumbling before me. And I again was faced with a challenge. And I'm not going to lie, the room was spinning a bit at the time when I realized my dream of becoming a prosecutor was not going to happen. And so I remember pounding the pavement one day. I got tired of feeling sorry for myself.
00:20:51
Speaker
got the only suit I think I owned at the time and um
00:20:56
Speaker
Started walking down Livingston Avenue where in New Brunswick and in Livingston Avenue in New Brunswick, New Jersey There are you know, just a bunch of law offices. It just sort of it lines the street, you know and so I just started walking up various law offices and handing out my resume and and and I the one thing I do know that is probably if I had to say hey Esther, what's your superpower right if somebody asked me what my superpower is and
00:21:24
Speaker
I would say it is my interpersonal skills, my ability to connect with people. And I had a moment in time where I was talking to the receptionist at this law firm and just was in the present moment without realizing I was in the present moment was connecting with her in a real positive way. And the hiring partner was listening.
00:21:47
Speaker
And the next thing I know he opened the door and said come on in for an interview and that was my first job at a law school was with the law firm of Garces and Grabler and Mr. Garces gave me my first shot. Amazing. Yeah, it's I guess it's a story now and you look back and you realize it's a story about you know life isn't always going to turn out the way you wanted it to turn out but you know you have the choice of what you now were going to do with what is unfolding in front of you.
00:22:17
Speaker
But it's also a story of how you treated the person who was an assistant, right? I don't know if you've witnessed how other lawyers, other professionals, how they treat assistants and, you know, quote, secretaries. But sometimes people are not that nice to executive assistants.
00:22:40
Speaker
And yet they do such hard work for, you know, for in this case for the law firm and so I think that also says a lot about who you are as a person in the way that you know you would you treat everybody with respect. And, but I'm also trying to imagine you as a young estrus solace walking and passing up resumes, that's.
00:23:00
Speaker
that's important. It shows about your strength of character and rising up to the challenge. So that's good. So then you worked for the law firm, but then eventually you switched over and decided to then work for the federal public defender. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a tough job to get those positions don't open up often because the position is just
00:23:25
Speaker
You know, they're coveted positions and you're in the federal court and you're representing people that are indigent and that need sometimes you're the only person they have in the country, depending on what type of charge it is and, you know, it was a dream job.
00:23:40
Speaker
And I didn't get it right away. So I interviewed, came very close, and I didn't get it. And obviously, you're heartbroken, but you continue powering through, moving forward. And I got a call a few months later by the then public defender, Rich Coughlin, saying another position had opened up, and they all wanted me to join.
00:24:07
Speaker
the Federal Defender's Office. And so, you know, even when you think it's not going your way, there's the idea of sort of staying positive and staying optimistic and, you know, keeping the faith, if you will, that things will work out. And I got a dream job at the Federal Public Defender's and it was nine and a half years of
00:24:27
Speaker
of challenges, certainly challenges. You face challenges as a woman, whether clients think you're tough enough to handle these cases, you deal with challenges as a Latina, and whether people think you have
00:24:45
Speaker
the bandwidth to handle some of the more complex criminal matters. So there's challenges that we all face, but I really do believe they are what makes us who we are. And it is really how you choose to view those challenges.
00:25:04
Speaker
I kind of feel that I'm talking to my therapist right now, Judge. Because all of us in this life go through challenges, and I'm hearing some positivity coming out of you. So thank you for saying.
00:25:19
Speaker
what you were saying. And so you're right, you were a federal public defender and you were breaking barriers. And then again, you did it in 2006. You became the first Latina on the federal bench in New Jersey when you became a federal magistrate judge.
Becoming a Magistrate Judge
00:25:36
Speaker
What motivated you to switch from being a public defender to now being on the bench? You know, for me,
00:25:48
Speaker
At the time, I saw these positions opening up. And again, you have a moment where you can say, I'm afraid of rejection. I'm afraid of someone laughing and saying, why you? But I knew there was never a Latino male or female as a United States magistrate judge. And I knew based on my mother's upbringing, based on everything that I had been through to date, that I had something to offer.
00:26:20
Speaker
And the very first time I went for the position, I didn't even get a callback. I kept lifting the phone receiver and trying to, is there a dial tone? Is there a dial tone? And everybody was being called in for interviews and I didn't even get an interview by the merit selection panel. But I went for it again. I went for it again and the second time I made it to the final round and did not get it.
00:26:45
Speaker
But I was persistent and I didn't give up. And the third time I was selected as a United States magistrate judge and assumed the position in 2006. So I think for me, it was rising to the challenge, but also understanding that you can fall, but if you get up and look at what you tripped over,
00:27:14
Speaker
and keep on walking, then that fall wasn't so bad. It wasn't what defined you. In fact, it helped shape you for the next round and the next round. So I think that for me, I've learned that many of us come to positions with fear and doubt instead of love and trust.
00:27:40
Speaker
And I think that for me, without knowing it, now I understand, but without knowing it, I was in love and trust. And I was trying to really allow what my mother's had taught me, what I knew of our story, what I knew of her story of strength and perseverance and her willingness to move forward. I saw her do it, and I knew I could do it too.
00:28:06
Speaker
And so it was that continual push to just try to be the best version of me that I could possibly be.
00:28:16
Speaker
And it's great to hear you say that. It's hard when you're in that moment though of, I mean, everyone has to go through these challenges if you fall and then you rise up and you try to learn from mistakes, the things that cause you to fall so that you can be a stronger person. Sometimes it's really hard though when you're in that moment. And so it's good to be able to figure out, what can you lean into in order to remind yourself
00:28:41
Speaker
that you can you can move forward. And so I'm here and here I am now picturing you as the now you're on the bench. And if I understand correctly, many federal magistrate judges
00:28:56
Speaker
in your position now as a district court judge, most of judges are not from the public defender side. If I'm understanding this correctly, it's usually those from the prosecutor side. So you bring in a different perspective as a woman, as Latina, and also as a former public defender. Do you agree with that?
00:29:17
Speaker
I do. I definitely think that more often than not, magistrate judges are selected from the U.S. Attorney's Office. Some of them are selected from private practice. Very few are selected from the Federal Public Defender's Office, but I think we see a trend, and I think we have a certain justice on the Supreme Court.
00:29:38
Speaker
So we are seeing a trend to sort of balancing that out and having sort of a diverse
00:29:49
Speaker
bench and people with diverse backgrounds, which I think is important for the justice system to keep in mind and to work toward making sure that the bench is a diverse bench that serves the community. And that community looks to the bench to make sure that's the representative sampling of what we look like. So I think there's obviously a need to keep that in mind.
00:30:14
Speaker
Yeah, you know, it was, there was definitely questions of what a federal public defender could understand about a docket that's 90% civil and most of what US magistrate judges do are civil matters.
00:30:31
Speaker
So that was definitely something that was, I think, of concern. But I'm proud to say that I worked every day to educate myself, to inform myself, to work in areas of law that I knew nothing about, like patent litigation and antitrust and other areas that I had never had any experience practicing in. But it was
00:30:56
Speaker
It was a phenomenal job. I enjoyed four and a half years as a U.S. magistrate judge. I loved settling cases. I got such a rush from being able to mediate and to get people to come to the middle and agree on a resolution. And those are just moments where you realize you made a difference.
00:31:20
Speaker
It was your style. It was your ability to reach the hardened litigant who thought their position was the right position and to get people to come to the middle and to compromise. So it was a four and a half years that I look back on and I truly feel blessed.
00:31:41
Speaker
It's interesting to hear you talk about encouraging litigants to meet at the middle. In law school, most of us learn to be, for those who want to go into litigation, you win, you represent your clients. And so more and more and more law schools are now offering ADR and negotiations and mediation.
00:32:03
Speaker
considering what settlement and compromise would look like. So it's good to hear you talk about what it was like for you as a judge and the rush that you get in trying to help resolve a case that could be much more expensive. It'll take long because the litigants will choose to drag it out.
00:32:22
Speaker
So that 2010 President Obama nominated you and then event, the Senate confirmed you in 2011 you became now another trailblazer with respect to being the first Latina article three judge in the state of New Jersey.
Recovery Court and Rehabilitation
00:32:39
Speaker
I'd love to hear about what are your proudest moments as a judge. What has made you feel, I've heard you talk about your mother feeling proud of you, but in terms of you as a judge, what has made you proud about being a judge? I have to say hands down, it's my work as a recovery court judge.
00:32:57
Speaker
In 2015, Judge Hayden and I started along with Pretrial Services and the then Chief of Pretrial Services, Chris Dozier, what's called the Pretrial Opportunity Program. And the Pretrial Opportunity Program is a program that is designed to find and identify defendants who committed their crimes because of their addiction.
00:33:19
Speaker
And there are obviously some prerequisites to entering the program. But we take in people no matter their exposure. And we work with people to rehabilitate their lives and their thinking. And we change lives. And it is just actually right before I sat for this interview, we had our recovery court session with our participants.
00:33:46
Speaker
It is, I leave there and I feel like I'm floating. I literally feel like I'm floating because we can see what someone looked like when they came in, what they were dealing with, and we work with them. And it isn't always easy. And it's so challenging because we're talking about people who have had trauma, adverse childhood experiences, who turn to drugs and alcohol as a form of self-medicating.
00:34:10
Speaker
who, you know, had, you know, who were out of foster systems, who had trauma that most of us can't even wrap our heads around. And yet here they are working on themselves. Yes, initially, the goal is probably to save themselves, you know, from jail. That's, you know, obviously they're thinking about that. But when you see the evolution of this individual, when they come in to when they are sentenced by me,
00:34:39
Speaker
and then go on to serve as mentors for the other participants that are still awaiting sentencing. It is probably the most gratifying thing I have ever done as a professional. Hands down. I'm hearing themes of rehabilitation, redemption, and second chances that you're for those who participate in this program. It's not easy because for those who have
00:35:10
Speaker
because of what they've done in the past, they have that history of convictions, then it's hard to get a job, to run an apartment, to get a loan. And so it's the fact that you as the judge who sentenced them is saying, here's also a program I can help you come back to society. And so is that a program that is in partnership with, I mean, who else partners with you in this program?
00:35:36
Speaker
So the pretrial opportunity program, there is, I'm the district judge right now. We have a magistrate judge, Judge Keel. And then the team is made up of literally the prosecutors, representatives, the federal public defenders, they have their representatives. We have people from pretrial, which is the before you're actually sentenced. So the pretrial services agency monitors the person while on bail. And then we have people from probation,
00:36:00
Speaker
Once they're sentenced, that's the supervising agency that monitors them while they're on supervision. And that's the team. And we are a team. We meet before we sit with our folks. We meet after we have our sessions. We identify people we're concerned about. We are invested. We are invested 120%. And decisions we make, we make as a team.
00:36:27
Speaker
I don't just decide whether we're going to expel someone from the program. We decide as a team. We vote as a team. It's collaborative. It's communicative. It is communal. And all these things that we need as individuals to be connected to something that's meaningful, that has purpose, and that is aimed at making this place
00:36:55
Speaker
the criminal justice system a better place. Thank you. It's a collective effort to help people. I'd like to just shift gears a bit and talk about your personal life. Sure. And in July 2020, your family experienced this horrific tragedy.
Tragedy and Advocacy for Judges' Safety
00:37:17
Speaker
When your then 20-year-old son, Daniel Andral, was killed by a deranged individual, your husband was also shot, and he survived. As a mother myself, really, I cannot even fathom what you went through, and I once again extend my heartfelt condolence to you and your husband. Tell me about your son, Daniel. What was it like?
00:37:44
Speaker
Oh my gosh, Daniel was the, you know, I used to say he was the, I used to call him the pit of my peach. He was the cherry on my Sunday. He was, you know, I told him he was the sugar in my bubble gum. He was, you know, everything to Mark and I, you know? And literally, we had four miscarriages, three before him, one after. So we used to call him our karma baby.
00:38:11
Speaker
uh and we used to say that he you know he was just our miracle child and uh you know we were living uh in euphoria you know you you know you you sort of realize and and
00:38:27
Speaker
For me, it was the middle of a pandemic. We were stuck inside together 24-7 and it was as much as I know so many lives were lost and I don't minimize the coronavirus or the COVID-19 global pandemic.
00:38:45
Speaker
I gave me a gift that I can never, and I'm just gonna try to lower this, gave me a gift that I will always cherish. And that was being with my son and having these moments that I can cherish and hold on to. Playing games, for example, with him. I was not much of a game player when he was growing up. And I realized, again, now looking back, that my mother didn't play games with me.
00:39:14
Speaker
She was too busy working two jobs, cooking, cleaning, and trying to keep a roof over our head. So mom was not into the games. And so I never got really into the games either. And so when I became a mom, my role was always working, coming home, cooking, cleaning, sort of being the disciplinarian when I needed to be, and the confidant when I needed to be as well. But the pandemic gave me an opportunity to play with my son.
00:39:42
Speaker
to play Scrabble and Jenga and our favorite was Monopoly Deal and you know we really had the most wonderful bonding sessions from March 6 when he came home from college to the moment he was tragically killed by a lawyer no less and you know he was just
00:40:05
Speaker
to me, an amazing human being on so many levels. But I've often said, and I mean this, that Daniel's senseless murder made sense of his life because Daniel lived every day like it was his last day. He enjoyed life. He was at his most somber moment when he was alone in his room not doing anything. But when he was doing
00:40:30
Speaker
things with people like playing games with his dad and me and or planning his birthday party which we were we had celebrated right before his dad doing things and being with people and loving people and loving life that was when Daniel was at his you know highest and and so I realized that in some ways perhaps
00:40:53
Speaker
You know you can be you can say it from a mystical perspective that you know he knew his life was not going to be long on earth and he was going to make the most of it and so I'm glad that I as his mom can look back and say he made the most of his life we made the most of our time with him and we loved unconditionally and we just you know we just loved and and that's it put a period on that.
00:41:23
Speaker
He sounds like a wonderful human being judge and I'm glad that you have those memories with him and that you, like I've heard you say, love is light as a remembrance of Daniel.
00:41:38
Speaker
After his death, you advocated for the passage of a law that would protect personal information of judges, including making sure that their addresses are not available on the internet. I mean, sadly, I understand that's how that the killer found where you lived.
00:41:57
Speaker
And it really is remarkable when many of my colleagues and I, when we've talked about the strength that you had in advocating for this bill, you were grieving, you still are, and yet you were pushing for this law to protect all other judges.
00:42:15
Speaker
And, you know, thankfully, fortunately, Congress agreed and a bipartisan Congress passed it in December of 2022. What was it like when you were walking the halls of Congress or talking to people about the importance of this bill?
00:42:35
Speaker
The journey post-murder, I talk about my life in many ways, pre-murder post-murder. And the post-murder journey has definitely, you know, it's been, it's been grueling, exhausting, arduous, it's emotional.
00:42:57
Speaker
But right after Daniel was killed and I knew he hadn't made it, I tell people that I was in a catatonic state. And I didn't want to live. And I'm very honest about that. He died on a Sunday. And Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, most of Wednesday, I had lost my will to live.
00:43:18
Speaker
And I often say the light switch turned off when I heard he didn't make it. But something happened to me on Wednesday. And I always say it was like a gentle nudge from above. And I remember the light switch go back on. And I remember pulling myself. I was in the hospital then because I was admitted the day he died. And I remember sitting up in the bed and asking for a pen and paper.
00:43:46
Speaker
And there was a team of doctors surrounding me telling me, trying to convey to me the severity of Mark's injuries. And it was at that moment that I came alive. And I sort of say, I awoke from a slumber. And it's been difficult. And it's definitely been challenging for me. But I also say to people that it
00:44:17
Speaker
It has made me a better person, foundationally. I have a renewed perspective on life. And I think that I work very hard at trying to think more about the betterment of others than necessarily
00:44:37
Speaker
you know, my individual journey. And so when this started, it was something was propelling me forward. Something had to be done. And, you know, and initially, I would say there was, you know, there was Daniel in mind, you know, his legacy, but it quickly became so much more than that. It became a concern for my brothers and sisters, as I call them.
00:45:02
Speaker
a concern for democracy, a concern for really our constitution. And when I put it in that perspective, the urgency and the perseverance and the drive really, really was coming from that place, that this is much more than an attack
00:45:30
Speaker
and a lost life, although as precious to me as that life was, there was a lot more at stake here. And so I think that ability to sort of, that ability to move forward was in large part fueled by what I knew was at stake, and that really was democracy.
00:45:52
Speaker
I've also heard you, even now you were talking about someone from above. Faith is a big part of who you are. I'm Catholic as well. And so I think Lent is coming up next week. So I'm thinking about the Lenten season and what that means. And so I've heard you talk about your faith as one of the bedrock principles that helps guide you as a person. Can you share a little bit more about where that faith has come from?
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah,
Faith, Healing, and Legacy of Daniel
00:46:22
Speaker
absolutely. I think that without faith, I would have been lost. And I truly credit God for the divine graces that I have been given. And I've been given many, many since Daniel's murder. But I consider spirituality not a religion, but a state of being. And I have really embraced concepts of spirituality.
00:46:52
Speaker
non-judgment, you know, forgiveness. Really for me the idea of being in the present moment and appreciating life for what it is and not for what you want it to be. These principles that we are all one
00:47:12
Speaker
that we are all the same, no matter who you are, no matter what faith or religion you may follow, or if you're an atheist or an agnostic, if you're black, if you're white, if you're Latino, if you're Asian, we're all the same. And this oneness under our source, God, whatever you identify as your source, we are all one. And that has really been the thing that has
00:47:40
Speaker
as I credit, I often credit as getting me to this point, getting me here, and that I continue to rely on and lean into to get me through what I know are inevitable challenges in the future. So it is a practice of mine to stay grounded in my spirituality and start my day with gratitude
00:48:10
Speaker
and start my day with God. And then, of course, moving forward with the body and really getting ourselves out there with nature and healthy. And then, of course, the mind is what we do for a living, most of us. What we do to
00:48:29
Speaker
to enrich our minds. And so it's been a habitual practice. It's been a ritual to maintain its self-care. And it's critical for all of us to sort of take time and feed that part of our soul.
00:48:47
Speaker
I completely agree with you that there's so much about us, the oneness, the theme of oneness and how many people, I think, focus so much on how we're different. But there's so much more about how we are more similar to each other and we waste time thinking about how we're different when we can really do so much more if we focus on our humanity as one being, one people.
00:49:17
Speaker
And so I appreciate hearing that from you. One of the other things I wanted, I was hoping that you would talk about is how the Daniel Androll Memorial Scholarship that you set up. Tell us more about that. Well, there's a divine story with it. So when Daniel, the shooting happened on Sunday, July 19. And I mentioned to you, I was hospitalized.
00:49:47
Speaker
I woke up on Wednesday, as I say it, and then I was well enough to be discharged on Friday. Well, my husband was still fighting for his life. My husband was shot. Three bullets hit him, but they pierced five different areas of his body. So he was in ICU. And I couldn't go far from him. So the marshals, I was under 24-hour protective custody. And so we had set up a little compound in a hotel just blocks from the hospital.
00:50:14
Speaker
And one of the nights I dreamt with Daniel, and it was a very vivid dream. I still remember it. And Daniel was in the dream wearing his favorite Catholic University gray sweatshirt with black lettering. And he was telling me how he wanted to still help his friends. And I said to him, Daniel, but how are you going to help your friends? You don't have a body. And we spend the dream sort of trying to think about how he can still help people.
00:50:44
Speaker
And so I woke up from that dream and it was just so, it was such a vivid dream. And I remember getting showered and going to the hospital that day. And I remember my sister-in-law pulling me aside and saying, I need to speak to you. And it was then in a conference room on the ICU floor that my sister-in-law said that a couple from Texas who we didn't know,
00:51:08
Speaker
saw the news and donated a large portion of money in hopes of starting a scholarship for Daniel and Catholic University of America. And there, as I said, the idea of scholarships was born. And, you know, obviously, I'm not involved in all of them because of my position, but
00:51:27
Speaker
Organizations, Rutgers Law School created a fully endowed scholarship. Catholic University has one. Daniels High School got a fully endowed scholarship and now Daniels Grammar School has a fully endowed scholarship as well. So out of this senseless tragedy, we see light.
00:51:48
Speaker
And we see the ability for students to go on and get an education in memory of my son. And you take that and you say there is those glimmers of love and hope and really faith.
00:52:06
Speaker
that we take this tragedy and we turn it to something positive. We make it more than just a horrible memory. We now have the power to say, this will help others. And he and his dream will live on to help others.
00:52:23
Speaker
Yeah, his name is there and supporting the scholarships that will benefit future lawyers, future college students, high school students. So he is there and his memory is a blessing in that it's creating these opportunities for so many people.
00:52:42
Speaker
Our time is almost up, Judge. And so I just want to say thank you for being you, for being so inspirational. We've met before at bar associations and I've always admired you from afar to be able to talk to you right now and hear your story from when you were a child to where you are and you're continuing to do such great work. I'm just, I'm in awe of you and I thank you for
00:53:11
Speaker
for making time for me and for sharing yourself and your stories so that many others could hear about your powerful and impactful life and how you continue to serve. You continue to serve us and we're grateful to you for that.
00:53:28
Speaker
Oh, I thank you. And I thank you for this platform and this opportunity to share the messaging that I want the world to hear. And I'm just so grateful to Rutgers, so grateful to Rutgers Law for
00:53:42
Speaker
you know taking a chance on this kid from Union City and helping me understand that you know deep down inside we're all diamonds and we you know we all shine and Rutgers helped me figure out in large part who I wanted to be and who I am. So I owe a debt of gratitude to Rutgers and to all the professors and to the deans and to my fellow students for you know just helping me
00:54:12
Speaker
realize my dreams in life, and I thank you for that. You have certainly represented Rutgers Law School quite well, Your Honor, and so thank you for all you do.
00:54:25
Speaker
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