Transcript
Speaker: Hello, and welcome to Peptal, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Christy Mayer, and we're joined today, not only by Andy Bannister. Hello, Andy. How are you doing? Oh, I'm doing well, Christy. Always good to be with you. Good to be with you, too. But we're also joined by the fantastic Pete Nicholas. Pete, it is such a joy to have you join us today. Thank you so much. How are you doing and where are you joining us from today?
Speaker: Thanks, Christian. Thanks, Andy. Lovely to be with you. Yeah, I'm joining you from a rather chilly Islington in central London. Lovely. That's just up the road from me and then on the Piccadilly line. Oh, you're just around the corner. Oh, well, welcome. We're really... I'm outnumbered by Londoners today. How does that make you feel, Andy? I feel very insecure that I'm outnumbered by... But I am a Londoner originally, so it feels like, yeah, it feels like home. So it's good to have you.
Speaker: It's good to have you, Andy. It's good to have you. A very affirming introduction to the podcast. All the way up there in Dundee. You are welcome here. Yeah, Pete, we've got so much that we'd love to chat with you in the next 20 minutes or so.
Speaker: I guess just to start us off I know that you've written a great book which I had the pleasure of reading called A Place for God and before you tell us a little bit about the content of that book could you share with us why you wanted to write the book like how you got there what was it that inspired you to oh inspired you to do that sorry I forgot your bio Pete introduce yourself as well
Speaker: Oh well, yeah, but hence the Inspire name, Jack. Thanks, Chris. I have the privilege of pastoring out in Spire, St James' Clerkerwell, in the centre of London. We were a church plant from All Souls, lying on place back about in 2013, and then we were called Inspire, and then we joined with the parish church of St James' Clerkerwell, hence the name.
Speaker: about three years ago and so now we run a well what we're hoping to be and seeking to be as united and diverse community inspiring London with the gospel so talking to people about Jesus and seeing the growing faith in him is very much what we're seeking to do in a very multicultural multi demographic area and church family hmm now you know I sort of
Speaker: joked a moment ago, I was London kind of years ago, but the city's obviously changed a lot even in the 15 years I've been out of it. It's a much, it's always much younger city, much more diverse city in terms of, you know, different religions, different backgrounds, different ethnicities. I mean, that's potentially quite a challenge for the gospel in terms of how we engage
Speaker: that community, right? We have to presumably do we have to rethink some ways that we do some things even while the message doesn't change? How have you found it's reaching today's London?
Speaker: Yeah, and particularly, Andy, where we are in Isington. I mean, if I say Isington, then most people probably think that Monopoly board and think, well, that's one of the more expensive properties on the Monopoly board, isn't it? And indeed, you know, there is the there is the kind of very wealthy aspect of Isington. But where we are, for example, in this area, two thirds of the residents here would probably be described as the urban poor.
Speaker: And my wife and I and our two kids live on one of the local council estates as well, where you kind of get that mixed experience of, you know, the kind of the people who've been in Islington for three or four generations, a lot of fatherless families, quite a lot of long term unemployment. But at the same token, you have
Speaker: You also have the kind of tertiary educated university professionals who are working in the city who earn a lot of money and who drive the prices in Islington. You get that kind of water and oil mixture of them living side by side but not really
Speaker: not really, you know, integrating. And so part of what we've been trying to do as church is engage, I mean, of course, not just two groups, both those groups, but also the different ethnicities and demographics you get in London, people who arrive in London for a year from many, many different countries. And it's the same gospel for all those people, but maybe they have different starting points and you need to do a good job of listening to them to really see how that unchanging gospel connects with those different backgrounds and life experiences in a city like London today.
Speaker: Just on that concept of listening, Pete, how do you go about doing that considering that the demographic is just so broad and so diverse? What does good listening look like in order to then engage with individuals and groups?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, you're partly just reminding myself to listen. My colleague and former boss, Graham Daniels, who was a Christian in sport, used to say the secret to good evangelism was, you know, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, listen, pray, speak.
Speaker: And I like the focus of that of really listening. And I think a big part of listening, particularly in a London context, is doing hospitality well. It can sometimes be joked that hospitality for an English person is making someone feel at home when you really wish they were at home. But we need to be a lot better than that and actually opening up our homes, particularly the thing I'm on estate. People come in and out of our flat all the time.
Speaker: and that's the context in which over a cup of tea you know people open up talk and if you listen and really care about people and try to understand them then you you hear you know slowly over a period of time you hear the things that they're concerned about the things that dominate their horizons their hopes their dreams and you start to see people individually of course but you also start to see certain themes that people are living for and
Speaker: I think my evangelism and my sharing of the gospel has become more effective as I've got older, as I've slowed down and maybe spoken a little less and listened a lot more.
Speaker: those kinds of themes, those desires, those things that really matter to people as you listen and have those conversations peak. Do you get a sense of those change for the current generation or are they the same themes that perhaps have always been there, but bubbling up in different ways?
Speaker: Yeah, but that's a really good question, Andy. I mean, I think in some ways a bit of both. There are similar themes because the common human experience, of course, across history is that it's similar. But I also think that particularly the generation of young adults, you know, what sociologists would often bracket as the millennial generation and also Gen Z, I mean, they're slightly separate, but they're often lumped together.
Speaker: The shift between my generation, what sociologists call Gen X, and the millennial generation, young adults, is probably the biggest shift that sociologists have observed. So they used to think there was a really big shift from the post -war generation and Generation X, their children, so my parents and
Speaker: and me, there was certainly a big shift there, but everyone seems to observe that the shift between my generation and the generation of younger adults is bigger still. And so I think that's just something to grapple with. And businesses are struggling with that. Media outlets are struggling with that, trying to work that out as well. Schools are trying to figure that out as well. And churches need to be aware of that and just aware of what that does and doesn't mean and how we therefore listen well to young adults and share the gospel with them.
Speaker: And on that note, you have written a book called A Place for God. How did you begin to kind of identify some of those key areas that young adults are kind of grappling with as you wrote that book? And how did you begin to address those desires that you identified?
Speaker: Yeah, a lot of it. I mean, I have the privilege of, like you, Kristy, speaking at, you know, university missions and church missions around the UK in order to do one or two a year. And I just noticed going back about 10 years ago, I started noticing that the kind of the temperature in the room, to put it metaphorically, kind of changed a bit. And also, I found myself in a strange situation where the churches and the Christian unions would ask me to do these kind of very typical titles that I was familiar with. And I had kind of well -worn talks on, you know,
Speaker: How good is good enough for God?
Speaker: you know, things like that, like, what about other religions? Is the Bible reliable? And those talks still have a place, they're still good. But as a speaker, I started to feel like they weren't really landing or connecting. And I started to notice as well, and I don't think it was me that the numbers were dwindling a bit as well. I don't think I was driving people away. And I suggested and I did some thinking about it and talk to some young adults and they said, yeah, well, there's not really the questions we're asking, to be honest. And so I know the TED Talks phenomenon was on the rise at the time. And I started looking at
Speaker: how popular that was and looked at the questions and they were the kind of big questions of life, you know, like what is the good life? Is there such a thing as truth? How do you have a secure and liberating identity? How do we make the world a better place? You know, questions, my background's philosophy, so I enjoy thinking about those things anyway and I was aware that these are questions that humanity's asked for millennia.
Speaker: But there weren't the questions that we were putting on in events, I suppose, to put it one way. And so I started saying to the churches or CUs, look, why don't you, rather than doing those questions you're asking me to do, why don't you ask your friends who aren't Christians what they would like to look at? And then they came back with those kind of questions I just shared with you. And then the CUs would say, well, but can you do a talk on that that will share Jesus? And I said, yeah, sure. The Bible's all about those questions, right? What is the good life?
Speaker: How do you make the world a better place? Like, how do you have a secure and liberating identity? What is truth? I mean, the Bible is all over those questions. We just might need to do some work to recapture them for this generation. So that was anecdotally how it came about. And then as I started to explore and hone and do talks on that and enjoy the, you know, as you know, Chris, the backwards and forwards you have in those kind of in those talks through the Q &A and the interactions afterwards really helped me and really helped me to see how people interacted with those questions and convinced me that these are the questions
Speaker: Struck as I listened to that, Pete, in terms of the audience for pep talk, there's sort of two sort of crowds who listen. We've got, I don't like to use the term ordinary Christians, because I don't think there is such a thing, but you know, men and women who are not in ministry, they're in the workplace and trying to figure this stuff out. But then we also have a lot of sort of pastors and church leaders listen. And I suppose just think of that latter audience, a question I'd love you to sort of help us with perhaps if, you know, for church leaders listening to this, who perhaps have a suspicion that maybe they
Speaker: that are addressing the issues people want to deal with today.
Speaker: are spending too much of their time addressing that previous generation of questions and would love to get better at addressing the newer questions. How do you make that transition? I mean, obviously, it's easier for you because you're doing the university stuff, so you're out there at the cold face, but for somebody who's pastoring a church in a city or a town somewhere, he wants to get better at this stuff. What advice would you give them for perhaps how to begin that journey, other than, of course, buy your book?
Speaker: which goes without saying, and there'll be a link in the show notes for people listening to this. Thanks, Andy, I'll give you the fee afterwards. Fantastic. I think I'm a pastor first and foremost, right? And therefore, for us as pastors, I think we can often get caught slightly between the horns of our dilemma on one level. We have our material, our illustrations, our familiar work themes that we feel comfortable with, and it's like putting on your slippers when you're in the pole, but you like to slide into those comfortable,
Speaker: memes that you have and there's nothing wrong with that but also the context is ever changing and there've been some really big shifts in the last 10 or 20 years and I think it's okay to admit that some of our material gets outdated and might need a bit of a refresh and ideally we're always doing that but the reality is life can be busy and it can be stretching so I think sometimes just start in the conversation with your friends and start in the conversations with your congregation
Speaker: I'm doing that listening exercise and not being afraid to kind of give up on some of your comfortable slippers and buy a new pet type thing to use the metaphor. I think the second thing is that actually reading scripture because Jesus Christ is the answer to all of our problems and I don't mean that in a pat way, I mean that in a profound and deep way.
Speaker: And therefore he addresses these issues. He asks Pilate the question about truth, right? And Pilate responds, what is truth? He talks with the disciples about identity formation. It just is done in the 2000 year old vernacular. He puts before us in the sermon on the Mount of Vision of how to make the world a better place.
Speaker: deals with our hopes and our fears and our tendency to despair and conquer it through the resurrection. So I think it's about reading and engaging with Scripture with fresh eyes and not letting it get stale and realizing that those issues are there. So we're not trying to impose something on the text. We're just listening to God speaking to us today. And I think that's what we should be doing as pastors anyway. So it's letting it stay fresh and keep reading with new eyes and praying for the Spirit to do that work. And that I think has helped me.
Speaker: Sounds very similar to John Stott's double listening, doesn't it? Like to the word scriptures and then to the world as well and hearing what those questions are that one of those heart cries that the world is just desperate to hear an answer to. And I just love how you do that, Pete. You do that, you do that warmly and you do that really robustly. And having those two things come together, I think is quite rare in conversations like these.
Speaker: I just wonder, kind of just landing this a little bit more, would you be able to share with us just an example or a story maybe of how you've seen this at work and in a conversation that you've had or perhaps a member of your church family?
Speaker: Thank you. Yeah, I mean, one that comes up a lot, but I think it's quite knotty and sometimes as fast as we can avoid a bit is the identity question. We're aware it gets told us, we get told a lot, don't we, that there's a lot of identity politics going on and obviously identity underpins a lot of the pop -button topics of race and sexuality and
Speaker: things like that. And actually, I think, you know, we have a number of people coming from a range of different standpoints, you know, on sexuality, transgenderism as well, even within our own congregation. And the discipleship journey for them is the same discipleship journey that it is for any person who's seeking to follow Christ is one of allowing Christ to form your identity and understanding what that means. But I think the starting points are sometimes a bit different. And so, for example,
Speaker: as I've tried as I've tried to listen to the culture, I broadly think that there are two very strong identity narratives out there that the world in inverted commas gives to us. One is be true to yourself. And so that kind of identity is about uncovering the real you. And it's often the identity narrative that's behind the kind of idea of liberation. I wasn't true to myself. And then I finally admitted who I really am. And now I'm being true to myself and living that out authentically. And I feel liberated. It's the coming out story.
Speaker: But then there's another narrative, which sounds similar but is actually quite radically different, which is be whoever you want to be, right? Think of frozen, no right, no wrong, no rules for me, I'm free. I won't sing it. And that is actually different, that's saying there is no you that you in fundamental have to be true to, you are a blank canvas, you can paint a thousand identities and you can change those identities as much as you want.
Speaker: And when you actually hear that, I think some pastry can just be really helpful to ask myself the question, as I talk to this person, where are they coming from? What's their identity? And I've even laid those before people to say, do you mind me asking you which one you think is the one you're living according to, and also the script. And I've had people say, you know, I'm, I'm trying to be true to myself. And I think this is who I really am. And then, you know, you can start and then you understanding how the Christian
Speaker: identity narrative is different to that and on one level affirms some aspects of that. Yes, authenticity is really important. Understanding who you really are is important.
Speaker: But trying to understand who you are and that you, without relation to God, is a fatal enterprise. Because if you try to discover who you really are, but you don't take account of the person God's made you to be, then you will end up tethering your heart to something else, a creative thing. And that is what the Bible calls idolatry, and that always leads to dissatisfaction.
Speaker: and to living separated from God, which is not liberating at all. So I think as you work that out and start to talk with people, but even just having those narratives there and helping to people, sometimes it can be a great diagnostic for someone. They say, oh, I never thought of it like that. Yeah, I think I'm living according to that script. You say, OK, how's that working out for you? Let's explore that and let's see how the gospel interacts with that can be hugely helpful.
Speaker: I'm taking notes. Thank you. No, I think, I think, I think that's very helpful, Pete. And I found, I think similarly as well, I think if you can, you know, in one sense, even, you know, find out the story that the person who was talking to is living in, and then also, I think, gently show how it's not delivering on its own promises and how the gospel invariably
Speaker: does, then I think it's a very powerful sort of scope for sharing the gospel within that framework. I suppose now, you know, time is coming towards an end, but I think, you know, we hit Chrissy into that and in her last question, it'd be great if you've got a, is there any sort of stories you can share of kind of this actually happening in practice when you, you know, you sort of mapped out the theory, but folks are going, that's great, how does that look like in a conversation?
Speaker: is there any sort of encounters that you have that you can think of either locally or you've been on the university campus where you've met someone and walked them through some of this and how did that go? It doesn't matter what went well, it went badly. I love that we get the honesty on pep talk. Sometimes people share when things haven't gone so well, but it'd be great to hear how some of this works, where the rubber hits the road as it were.
Speaker: Well, yeah, I mean, around the identity narrative, I think I can share both a positive pastoral situation and also one which has been personally painful, appropriately confidential, of course, and lacking in detail because of the time. So the positive one, first of all, I was speaking at a university lunch bar on this issue of identity and afterwards I had the
Speaker: president of the transgender society come up to me and she was born male but self identified as female and said that when you were talking about those narratives, I would strongly identify the transgender community but it's the first narrative me I've always felt.
Speaker: that I was a woman, though I was born male, and that's been the big thing for me. But, you know, we then had a conversation around would she find liberation or has she found liberation in actually identifying that way? And she was very candid that actually know that that's an ongoing struggle, that was an ongoing struggle for her.
Speaker: and then by God's grace she started attending Inspire, came down to London and very much part of the church and seeking to live out the gospel and working out some really naughty issues as you can imagine and working out you know what it looks like to be authentic to God's call. Yeah that's a great example where that you know rather than just leading with moralism
Speaker: of, you know, well, you need to change or you need to do this, but actually getting to the deeper issue of identity and helping to see how to follow Christ is to receive an identity, not to seek to manufacture or achieve an identity, but to receive that identity of made in the image of God, fearfully and wonderfully made, all being a mixed up sinful world and deeply loved. And, you know, to talk about what it looks like to appropriate that and to live that out in your life. And it shouldn't be a surprise, but as he started to receive that identity then,
Speaker: the moral question of who he was identifying as started to resolve itself in a way at no point did I need to sit there and say you must do this. Now of course I'm not denying the discipleship call I'm just saying that that's how it worked out. But then there's also been a negative example where someone who was in again in our congregation who was very much part of the gay community and then kind of left a relationship and joined our church really trying to live that out and I know, still know, very well in
Speaker: But then they turned around and said, actually, you know, this is who I am and I'm not prepared to give it up for Christ. And this is what I'm for my identity on.
Speaker: But for me, the existential reality of needing that intimacy and needing that care from another human being whose same sex is to me is actually where I'm at tonight. And, you know, then saying, I think I can have that and follow Christ and me gently trying to say no, because it's about identity formation. Christ is your all and everything and everything else needs to come under him.
Speaker: And that's an ongoing conversation, but it's a painful one because they're not part of the church family anymore because they don't agree with us on that issue. So I'm just saying it's naughty. I'm saying it's not straightforward. But I think it's the conversation to be in. And by God's grace, we have the good news for that conversation that we need to be prayerful and patient as we talk it and walk it out with people.
Speaker: Thank you so much for sharing those two little vignettes, Pete. I think that gives us just such a great insight, not only how to handle those conversations well, but it also, I think, just increases our confidence that the Lord has given us everything that we need to be able to have those conversations with grace and with the fullness of His truth. So thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for your time this afternoon. It's been a real joy just
Speaker: hearing these, picking up these little gems that you've just scattered across the way for us to kind of look at and reflect upon in our own lives and conversations. Thank you so much for your time. Andy, thank you again for being a great co -host and thank you to all of our listeners. We really look forward to joining you in a couple of weeks time where we'll be joined by another wonderful person who will get to learn from you. So until then, thank you very much and have a great week. Bye.
