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Episode 118: Quaranteam - NJPW in 2020
55 Plays5 years ago
The Quaranteam is back talking New Japan Pro Wrestling during quarantine!
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Transcript
White Claw vs Zima: A Nostalgic Debate
00:00:36
Speaker
Hey everybody, the Quarantine is back. Predetermined and the best there ever was. And we are sitting here, getting ready to crack open some claws. But you know what? We've been watching a lot of New Japan. I'm not feeling the claws. I saw too many Zemas. You're not feeling a claw? I'm not feeling the claw, Derek. When the fuck has that ever happened? I mean, if Zack and Taiti are drinking Zemas. Exactly. If Zack Sabre Jr. is doing it, that's what I'm gonna be doing.
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, Joey Janela doesn't go to New Japan. There's no white claws in New Japan. Just so you know that for a fact. I do not know that for a fact. I was actually wondering that, because I have plane tickets to go to Wrestle Kingdom this year. Probably not happening. But if I get over there, will there be a claw for me? I was supposed to have just been back from Japan a couple weeks ago, but since that didn't happen, I can't confirm or deny.
00:01:32
Speaker
I mean, GCW has done shows there, so I would assume there's at least some white claws laying around somewhere. I want to get a shirt that says committed to the claw with the waves crashing right in the center, because I'm not really a fan of the Zima, and I don't think that I'm ready to make that brand change yet, guys. What Zima flavor are you drinking, Fax?
00:01:54
Speaker
Uh, Zima. Zima is the flavor, isn't it? Zima clear? So the first time I ever got drunk was on Zima. That's a true story. Zima ice. I,
First Drunken Adventures & Camping Tales
00:02:07
Speaker
uh... What? Yeah. First time I ever got drunk on Zima, um, it had just come out, like, literally, and it was just all over the commercial, and me and my other, like, 13-year-old friends were just like, well, we don't want to drink beer. Like, our brothers drink beer. We're gonna drink what the adults drink.
00:02:25
Speaker
Zima! Zima! Zima! Is what the adults drink. We're gonna drink what coat of bushy drinks. You said you were what, 13? I think give or take. I don't, I don't, somewhere around 13. Now I'm wondering how old you are because I swear to God Zima's disappeared after like the mid 90s.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it was it was the only around for a little while It was I was probably a little younger than that come to think of it I don't I might have been more like 11 or 12 were you hustling kids on the playground for zemas No, one of the aforementioned older brothers bottom. There was three of us. We got a six-pack One kid could only finish one so me and the other kid finished his second beer so I had somewhere in the range of two to three zemas and
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, you're so fucking fair though. Almost kissed a girl from Lake Panamoka that night. And then I think I accidentally shit my pants, but not like from drinking too much. Like we were outside, we were going to camp, sleep at a tent that night. And I just tried to shit and missed the hole and shit in my pants.
Japanese Toilets: A Cultural Comedy
00:03:37
Speaker
This was actually Doki's story after he drank the two beer, the two Zemas on Sunday night too actually. Doki, all the facts in Doki are very similar. Yes. Garrett, would you care to share your shitting experience in Japan since we're on the subject of New Japan? And shit out, apparently. Yeah, I almost shit my pants on a mountain.
00:03:56
Speaker
They shit differently over there. Yeah, I what I hear I had only experienced the really fancy toilets and we were going hiking up to a You know a very sacred place and I found a bathroom went in And it's just a hole in the floor It was one of those holes in the floor and I didn't know how to I was worried about just shitting straight down into my own pants as you should be I
00:04:20
Speaker
I barely made it. There's not like a spring training for standing while shitting. Like you get one shot, don't miss your chance to blow and right into the toilet. Yeah, I mean, I think in my day, you know, I was probably in the Boy Scouts at the time, so I definitely had shat outside successfully many times. I think I had had just enough Zima that my aim was off.
00:04:46
Speaker
And sugary alcohol fucks you up anyway. I tried, I tried warning you about that too. I think the only experience you've ever had with Zima, I think was after all in, it was the two predetermined boys
Wrestle Kingdom's Pandemic Pause
00:04:59
Speaker
and queen of the ring sitting on the kitchen floor and your aunt and uncle's home out in the burbs of Chicago.
00:05:06
Speaker
And I'm pretty sure you and Queen of the Ring both got through half of a Zima and then kind of gave up and just gave it to me. And then I finished both of your Zimas and a Miller Lite and then everyone was done drinking because it wasn't that good. God, you're just as fucking cool as Fax was when he was 11. I know! Gareth, I just want to be clear though, when you were on that mountaintop, you hit the mark, right?
00:05:30
Speaker
Oh, I did. I was so scared though, man. There was a line of people behind me. I didn't know when I opened that it was going to be that kind of toilet. You know who also hit the mark, I think? New Japan at the Tokyo Dome. Oh, I see what you did there.
00:05:46
Speaker
Welcome to the quarantine. Zima, pants shooting, and wrestling. And yeah, this episode is New Japan focused, right? And shooting. I think what we wanted to talk about was, to start with at least, was Wrestle Kingdom, which because
Wrestle Kingdom: The Grand Finale
00:06:05
Speaker
of the pandemic, the quarantine that has spawned the quarantine,
00:06:11
Speaker
New Japan had kind of like a real season finale. I mean, people joke about like WrestleMania being the season finale, but there was basically the climax to a number of stories, a little bit of a epilogue, and then like four months of nothing. And so it really feels like, despite the fact that, you know, Naito was champion for six months, it was really just like, it's like the end of a season. And I think it was, you know,
00:06:36
Speaker
People can disagree with that wrong. I think it was a pretty great end to it. Yeah, I agree. And it was also interesting, because obviously, when Wrestle Kingdom happens, January 4th and 5th, we obviously don't know that the pandemic is coming. But they normally do. January 4th is always Wrestle Kingdom. January 5th is New Year's Dash, which is kind of their raw after WrestleMania to kind of set the new table. And interestingly, this year, they just went with, fuck
Two-Night Wrestle Kingdom: A New Tradition
00:07:01
Speaker
it. We're calling both days. They're both at the Tokyo Dome.
00:07:04
Speaker
were doing you know big ppv over two nights it's all called wrestle kingdom and and it was really much more definitive and final and like you said there was a little tiny epilogue but they really it really felt like a seasoned finale even before you know wrestling went off the air and and obviously they did keep going
00:07:23
Speaker
for a little while beyond that. But that's kind of the interesting thing is that this has never been done before. Two nights in the Tokyo Dome, like 10, 11 hours, whatever it was, of just fucking amazing pro wrestling.
00:07:37
Speaker
It's important to stress that Wrestle Kingdom being back in January, this is now July. Yes. That feels like a full year has passed since that. Well, feels like six years. Yeah. I've been through a lot of despair since Nido won those two belts. Nido was champ in my mind. Nido was champ longer than Bruno Sammartino in the 60s.
00:08:02
Speaker
Yeah, it also feels like he was never champion in a weird way, right? And not never open weight. Because it's almost like with New Japan, since unlike the American shows, New Japan went totally dark, right? They did their last show I think at the end of February, and then they didn't have their first show back until end of June.
00:08:25
Speaker
And they did not do any shows. And I legitimately forgot, like, who had what title, you know, what were the stories, if any. And then there's the question of, do any of those stories even matter? Right. Because it had been so long. Like, are those still the stories? Did the pandemic happen in kayfabe?
00:08:48
Speaker
I think an interesting thing to discuss, and maybe we'll get into this a little bit in our next episode, but is that something that wrestling companies need is a little bit of a refresher and a palate cleanser? Like an official season finale, and then you can kind of start things up and none of it feels as contrived and forced for the Raw after Mania to literally have a period of a couple of months where you do get to forget?
00:09:13
Speaker
Who the champions are so that when it when they come back you oh shit? Yeah? Now I'm looking forward to this as opposed to as soon as the match is over immediately thinking of it Go ahead every time Brock Lesnar has a match. He forgets that he's champion for the next three or four months The Saudi Prince doesn't know the Saudi Prince never forgets about bro Saudi Prince
Naito's Triumph & Long-Term Storytelling
00:09:33
Speaker
forgets who's alive
00:09:34
Speaker
Yeah, I'll say I think one of the reasons this worked so well though is that it wasn't just okay It was the big event and we're gonna take a few weeks off It was that this Wrestle Kingdom ended up being the climax to Naito's story You know paying off the Wrestle Kingdom matches he'd had with Okada six years ago and two years ago respectively and just sort of it was his
00:09:58
Speaker
you know, crowning after he'd fallen short so many times. And so that's what kind of made it perfect was that after someone chases the title so long and wins it, sometimes you go, OK, well, what's next? What are we supposed to do? And then it was like, OK, well, they're just champion. He's just he's won and it's over. And that kind of actually he like was sort of happily ever after in a way that normally you don't get to do as a wrestling champion.
00:10:22
Speaker
Though, isn't it nice though when storylines and wrestling pay off over the long term and they really analyze like the history between a couple of guys and make it pay off in a big moment at the end of a show? Yes.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah. So what would you guys like to dive into from Wrestle Kingdom? What really stands out from the show to you? Well, why don't we just talk about that top of the card, right? Just because that's the obvious thing that people remember, right? Is that you had essentially this four man mini tournament for both top belts. And while now retroactively we can look at it as, you know, Naito finally getting over the hump for good and finally beating Okada.
00:11:00
Speaker
Going into that there was a lot of drama because it also seemed like could this be the coronation for a bushy, right? That's another direction or it's even Okada's already the king of kings right the greatest champion in New Japan history how can we make him even champion the er and Maybe that's by having him win both titles and winning over both nights and Jay White was kind of the only one that
00:11:25
Speaker
You know, you had a pretty never say never with Guido when it comes to Jay White, but it seemed like he was probably the only one. The other three guys all had a really compelling argument to be walking out with both titles. And that just led to a lot of drama. And especially since all four of those guys are really, really good main event New Japan style wrestlers. Well, what was your favorite match out of those anyone? What was your of the of the weekend there?
00:11:53
Speaker
You're asking me to remember something that was so long ago.
Wrestle Kingdom's Iconic Matches
00:11:57
Speaker
Let me pull up the card. I've got it in front of me here. I mean, honestly, the main thing would've... Oh, fuck. This is one of those words, like, do I really want to name names? Let's talk about it, guys. I mean, I think Naito and Okada was pretty... He resurrected Zima. I think Naito and Okada, to me, was the...
00:12:20
Speaker
the winner of the matches. Abushin Okada was great, but it was kind of long and slow and I liked a lot of things about it, but Naito and Okada was just, I don't know, kind of wall to wall, like, you know, thrilling. I completely agree. I remember distinctly watching that and thinking that I wasn't going to be as into it as I ended up being. That was just, I think you said it bell to bell, that was a damn good match.
00:12:44
Speaker
Well, and I think also the the second night one just from a dramatic standpoint because obviously that one's for all the beans so it just has more hyped and also the fact that night one you had these two matches back to back that
00:12:59
Speaker
Both really intense and both really great Whereas in a weird way and and you know They do this at WrestleMania a lot where they kind of had this lame duck coda abushi versus j white match as before the the Naito Okada match that kind of is a refractory period where you know, like all the eggs are in this one basket and I mean it really
00:13:21
Speaker
delivered, right? We've seen Naito and Okada, but they literally made it. These guys have already literally fought at a title match at Wrestle Kingdom before. How do we make it even bigger? And they did. And these are the two standard bearers of New Japan, of the current era. Because Tanahashi's a little bit like last half era ago. Really, if you look at who were the two definitive main
Meeting Wrestlers: Persona vs Reality
00:13:47
Speaker
eventers, and maybe Kenny Omega being the third before he left,
00:13:50
Speaker
It's Naito and Okada. They are this generation's top top cream of the crop. Well, that's something I wanted to ask because I know that Garrett and I have talked about it on our podcast a couple of times. After all of the elite left New Japan, it seemed like they were in a hurry to get that title on on Jay White. Was that a off the cuff weird decision, in your opinion?
00:14:17
Speaker
Well, I think, retrospectively, the weird decision actually was Tana Hashi winning the G1 that year. That it seems like you don't have Tana Hashi win that if you think Kenny Omega might leave. Because the story really was about the new generation of New Japan burying the old.
00:14:37
Speaker
And then it kind of didn't make sense. The main event of Wrestle Kingdom 13, arguably their biggest show ever at that point, wound up being Know the Old, Beat the New, which is just not very exciting. And then especially when Ta-Nehisi loses then the title to Jay Whiteness' first title defense,
00:14:56
Speaker
It just seems like it clearly wasn't well thought out. And I think we'll touch on this later that as much as I love Guido as a Booker, I don't know that he can deal with
Okada's Global Appeal
00:15:07
Speaker
changing circumstances very well. And I think that that's where, I think that Jay White was always probably getting the title. I don't know that he gets it that quickly, but I don't think they ever planned on Ta-Nehisi being champion. And once Ta-Nehisi's champ and Canyon is gone,
00:15:24
Speaker
I mean, you might as well just get it on Jay White sooner, right?
00:15:28
Speaker
Yeah, they needed someone for Okada to beat at Madison Square Garden. I mean, I think they could have also just done Okada Tanahashi again, potentially. But that was apparently the plan for a long time, at least according to old Dave. That was that Okada was going to win at the garden. And when I found out that it wasn't going to be Okada and Omega at the garden, or that I had the chance. I had tickets to see Okada and Omega. Well, it should have been Okada and Omega.
00:15:57
Speaker
I sobbed a little bit. In some ways, again, I sobbed when I realized I wasn't going to see War Games. There's been a lot of disappointment over the last couple of years, actually. Think about it. See, I had tickets to that show, too, and I decided not to go to New York at all. Is that real? For the G1 show in Madison Square Garden?
00:16:16
Speaker
Yeah, I had tickets to the Madison Square Garden show, the Mania weekend show. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn't know. I mean, because we ended up getting a mirror, a mirror only even five star J White versus Okada match with Okada triumphantly murder death killing J White. That's all we have. Come on. Come on, facts. It was four and three quarters tops. Okada's up for the MDK gang? That's what I learned today. Okada and Nick Gage are tight. Oh, yeah. And Guido.
00:16:48
Speaker
The Yakuza was very involved in Japanese wrestling for a long time, I'm told. It may still be a little bit, I don't know. But let me throw something else in your pipe though about Wrestle Kingdom. I don't think my favorite Wrestle Kingdom match was any of those.
Impact of American Wrestlers on NJPW
00:17:04
Speaker
I actually think the best, in my mind, the best overall match at Wrestle Kingdom, I think was the big Hiromu comeback against Will Ospreay. Will Ospreay had kind of run Rafshad over the entire junior division. There was no one left. They have this huge, legitimately surprising comeback for Hiromu, which was only weeks before. It was not much before Wrestle Kingdom. And I remember thinking,
00:17:28
Speaker
OK, Hiromu's the guy from a popularity contest standpoint you got to put in a big match. I get that. But I don't think there's any way physically he's going to be ready to the Hiromu that I'm used to. And I was dead fucking wrong. That might have been the best match of his career. It was one of the greatest matches I've ever seen in my life. It was the best junior match or one of the best junior matches on what over the last two year run has been
00:17:58
Speaker
One of the most just hilariously awesome runs of wrestling matches is when you look at just basically the junior title over the last two years or so leading up to that and I mean goddamn that was a good match.
00:18:13
Speaker
That's a hell of a way to come back after such a dramatic, possibly queer ending injury that you saw, Garrett. Yeah, it was the second row that happened right in front of my face. Oh, dear. In San Francisco, yeah. That was the cow palace, right? Yeah.
00:18:30
Speaker
One, it's interesting that we now, we're gonna talk about the New Japan Cup in a bit, but these are a bunch of guys that were off for a couple of months and didn't have life-changing injuries. They were just working out less at the gym, I guess. And their endurance is noticeably less for a lot of guys, most guys, even guys like Okada. And yet, Hiromu, honestly, he's inhuman in a good way. He's just a machine.
00:19:01
Speaker
He really is one of my favorite guys to watch in New Japan right now, so I'm with you at Wrestle Kingdom. Him coming back was easily my favorite thing. I was so excited for that, and he lived up to all my expectations. I would say I also loved the Moxley, both Moxley matches I thought were great. Especially, I really loved the one with Juice Robinson, who my daughter loves now, because she saw him with the weird hat with the balls all over it, and she's like, who's that?
00:19:32
Speaker
for a kid that's all it takes oh yeah he's very colorful he's got glasses and she can say juice in a very funny way she's just feeling the juice Robinson but and to me the moment I mean I'm I'll make no bone about it I love Suzuki goon I love all those guys there's so much joy in what they do so many of the new Japan guys are like I'm stoic
00:19:53
Speaker
I'm just this warrior. The Suzuki goon guys are all about having fun. It's not about whether you win or lose. It's about whether you get to torture your opponent and punch a young boy. They've been talking, maybe Suzuki's run was over and so when Mox won the match and Kazaninure hit,
Japanese Retirement Ceremonies
00:20:15
Speaker
I was watching that on a train because I'd gone down, a friend of mine, a good friend of mine had gotten engaged, gone down for the engagement party to DC, I was on a train back, so I'm watching this on a train and I was attempting not to fucking scream out loud at how excited I was to see Minoru Suzuki challenging Jon Moxley. Until you mentioned it, I would have never looked at Suzuki as a guy who's always ready to have fun, but he is always smiling.
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did you ever think that you would see Dean Ambrose kiss Suzuki on the head? That's a thing I never thought I'd see. I mean, Suzuki is basically a Batman villain, right? Like they all seem like they have good times. They dress up goons like silly things, have a great time, horribly frightening, but, you know, fun. Great definition. When you were in Tokyo, did you go to Suzuki's store?
00:21:13
Speaker
So I didn't, but I did have an interaction with the man himself. And I will say, so I was at a New Japan show to give clarification. So it wasn't like a random thing.
Pandemic Impact on Japanese Wrestling
00:21:23
Speaker
But so when you go to a show at Koriken, it's pretty open. It's not as big a place as it looks. Right. It's kind of a.
00:21:32
Speaker
I don't know how to describe it. It's more like the ECW Arena than Madison Square Garden. So I'm just at the vending machine, just buying myself a Diet Coke. And I turn around and I notice a shadow behind me. There's someone right behind me, politely waiting to go next to the vending machine. I turn around. It's Minoru Suzuki.
00:21:53
Speaker
I am within the span of one second. I go from elated, starstruck, embarrassed, and then more terrified for my own life and safety than I've ever been. But he was just like, you know, just kind of nodded to me and then just...
00:22:12
Speaker
It's fucking Suzuki. Got his own Diet Coke. Got his own Diet Coke. And then cut to, this is
New Japan Cup Excitement
00:22:18
Speaker
maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes before the first match. And then cut to like 45 minutes later, he's hitting young lions with chairs, like 100 yards. And my now wife, then girlfriend, just being like, who the hell is this crazy guy? And I'm like, he's the one that was behind me at the soda machine. That's why I was so scared when I came back.
00:22:43
Speaker
Were you scared because you were afraid he saw how excited you were to see him initially? Again, it was like interacting with the Joker, where it's just like... I think this is amazing and this is a life-changing experience, but I gotta get the fuck out of here before he puts a pencil in my eye. Right? Have any of you guys met any other wrestlers that made you feel this way? Like anybody that made you feel like you were meeting a superhero or villain?
NJPW's Theatrical Presentation
00:23:10
Speaker
I didn't, again, didn't properly meet him, but I walked past Suzuki. I was doing, at WrestleMania weekend a couple of years ago, I was doing some work with Extremely Serious Wrestling at one of the collective shows. And so, as I was walking out, Suzuki was walking in for Bloodsport, wearing a leopard print tracksuit and flip-flops.
00:23:37
Speaker
It was only like after I'd like walked past him that I fully like processed who it was and I was like What like there's like a power of that around that man that is just it's like I've seen a feel like his toes
00:23:50
Speaker
And that's kind of one of the great beautiful things about New Japan, right? Is that they still are fucking superheroes and supervillains like you know Chris and I sir like we've we've had a drink and smoked cigars with Cody Cody by any definition is a bigger star than Suzuki ever was as a professional wrestler yet
00:24:11
Speaker
he just felt like another guy I was just hanging out with this dude that I think is a really cool dude that's you know kind of sort of my idol but you know somebody I can just kind of have a beer with and it's cool whereas you know these Japanese wrestlers
00:24:25
Speaker
just feel far more iconic. Garrett, remember when I had shared with you, we were both at the G1 show in Dallas, Texas, night one of the G1 2019, and I just texted you that Ishii was sitting the section over me, because I was on the last section where they let fans. And then Ishii was just one section over from me, about two rows in front.
00:24:51
Speaker
just sitting watching the Tanahashi Okada match. And again, it was like he had this look. And even these guys that just were like, oh, I'm from Texas. I live in Dallas. There's a wrestling show I'm going to go and didn't really know a lot of New Japan. They were entranced by him. They were like, who is this guy? Like, what is he going to do? And he had wrestled that night.
00:25:15
Speaker
Well, and they'd seen him whip some ass like an hour earlier, and that's the other incredible thing. He must've taken a turbo shower, and she's like, fuck, I gotta get in the crowd to see Ta-Nehisi and Okada go at it. Well, it must've hit you the same way with Suzuki, though, that he had to chug that fucking Diet Coke and then go get ready for his match.
00:25:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, again, he was in like a six man and his role was clearly just to destroy young lions. So, I mean, it was probably to top off the straight whiskey he'd been drinking all afternoon.
00:25:45
Speaker
When I met Kenny Omega at a PWG show, this would have been, maybe he'd already had this two matches with Okada. So he was fucking Kenny Omega. Nobody was in, everybody had already waited in line to meet him and everything, so I walked up to get a shirt, bought a shirt from him, started to walk away, and then he said, hey. And I turned around and he just put out the too sweet, and he's like, too sweet me. And I too sweeted him, and I just, and I think I giggled a little bit. Like, hee hee.
00:26:13
Speaker
I just met Superman. He really made that moment for you. He made sure that you walked away with more than just the shirt. Well, that's what I think all those guys are good at. I mean, I don't want to talk about the EW. But again, it's that distinction, right? The Young Bucks, Cody. If you've ever been in a thing where you meet some of those guys, they're really great at making. Cody is like a politician. I've been in a couple of meet and greet things with Cody. And I talked to the guy who
00:26:43
Speaker
who runs that cigar company with. And I was like, oh, man, that event was really cool. And he's like, yeah, I set it up like a political fundraiser, which is what I used to do. Because Cody could be a political candidate. Cody just walks around the rooms in glad hands and makes everyone feel special. And that's, again, it's sort of the opposite thing where we feel so distant. Maybe it's in part, again, the language barrier. Maybe Okada is just a cool dude that feels distant to me because I don't speak Japanese.
00:27:14
Speaker
And I think there's also something cool about Okada. I remember when he even said something when the MSG show was coming up where he was just like, eh, it's a big arena, 10,000 people, whatever. I've done that before. I wrestle Tokyo Dome every year. He's like, that's bigger, and it's more important to me. And I'm just like, you know what? That's kind of badass.
00:27:32
Speaker
He's not going to just tell us what we want to hear and be like, oh, my God, it's the Mecca of pro wrestling. You know, I get to wrestle in New York and Chicago and Dallas and L.A. and San Francisco. He's just like, no, that's cool that we wrestle in America sometimes, I guess, trying to build an audience. Even going back to all in weekend, I remember being surprised at how much it
Okada's Star Presence
00:27:54
Speaker
felt like Okada.
00:27:56
Speaker
Was the superstar there like that of all of the people there that you would like like Kenny was obviously huge. I mean ultimately I guess Jericho ended up showing up, but I remember OK like it felt surreal that Okada was in the building for that match with the yeah.
00:28:12
Speaker
And when you even saw him and Ibushi, when Ibushi walked through Starcast, it was like, holy shit, there's Ibushi. And I think that's because with BT and things like that, these guys are so much more approachable that we have a pretty good idea of what Kenny Omega is like in real life. We can imagine that hang whether we've done it or not.
00:28:32
Speaker
Whereas, like, Okada, Ibushi, Suzuki, Tanahashi, these people just, they just seem like demigods that, like, I just think that they sit in, like, it's like Superman sitting in the fortress of solitude just playing, like, minesweeper. It's just, like, I don't have any idea. I just think that, like, Suzuki just sits at home in an actual iron throne in his black trunks and boots, no shirt, and just, like... Surrounded by chicken bones.
00:29:02
Speaker
just surrounded by both bones of all shapes and sizes and he pictures of his socks, but he's just watching him on Instagram. He takes a picture of his different socks every day, but he's just watching like the real housewives of Osaka like you know.
00:29:21
Speaker
while fucking around on Facebook, half watching. It's like, what's going on, Sazook? Well, I will say, the one thing, one last thing I want to talk about, Wrestle Kingdom, before we kind of transition to the break and then the comeback, is Ibushi, right? Because Ibushi comes out of Wrestle Kingdom having lost to Okada, and then losing again to Jay White. And I thought, I was just thinking, watching Ibushi over the last few weeks of like,
00:29:47
Speaker
He feels kind of out of place, right? He's like hanging out with Ta-Nehisi, but he doesn't really have friends otherwise, like Kenny's in America. But in rewatching the match with Okada, it's kind of struck me today that the version of Ibushi where he kind of like totally flips out and like goes into what either Kevin Kelly or Rocky called a fugue state.
00:30:11
Speaker
To me, I think that might be like the way forward for a Booshie's character is for him to just become like this Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde monster. Because when he turns, like when he like goes dead in the eyes and he starts like destroying Okada during that match, A, the crowd starts booing and he is legitimately terrifying. It really feels like in KV, Bobby's like, but like, oh, I think he might kill that guy. And that's
00:30:41
Speaker
I think that's something where that could be his next level is like she becoming this insane person could be something that Is that is the ticket to him being a full-time main eventer? Maybe it's him turning on Tana Hashi and doing that. I don't know but I just think there is something there that like he is Fascinating when he does that
00:31:02
Speaker
Well, and again, I think we're gonna hit on this again, but I gotta go back to, I don't get the way Guido booked Wrestle Kingdom 13 and the G1 leading up to that, is he deprived us that if he ends up beating Tanahashi in the finals of the G1 that year, in 2018, and then he goes on to have the Golden Lovers explode in the main event of Wrestle Kingdom 13, by then they obviously know Kenny's leaving, so Ibushi wins the title,
00:31:31
Speaker
He's a made man, and he's a number one, all-time, never-look-back main eventer. No doubt about it, and the fans were 100% ready for him. And while Vince catches a lot of shit for not maybe pulling the gun at the right time,
00:31:46
Speaker
I don't know, and I get that Guido had another plan, but it just seems really short-sighted that they didn't fucking switch that plan to giving the obvious money match that will now possibly never happen. And it's two years later, or a year and a half later, and we're trying to figure out
00:32:08
Speaker
What spot in line is he now and will the fans even buy him as a world champ if you pulled the trigger on it in the near future? Garrett, you just said to me the other day, you're still holding out the AEW in New Japan, figure out some kind of working relationship.
00:32:27
Speaker
I hope they do. I hope they do. A lot of the matches I want to see would involve both guys. And wouldn't though Omega versus Ibushi, wouldn't that be number one? I mean isn't that the number one match you would want to make happen if that could happen?
00:32:43
Speaker
Yeah, I remember distinctly on our shows, we were talking about all the possibilities for that year's Wrestle Kingdom. And I remember thinking, the story has to be Abushi's crowning, right? Because that's the feel good. After everybody left and Abushi's finally on his own, he has this moment. And that ultimately didn't end up happening. If they're going to have a really solid shot at making him,
00:33:12
Speaker
To me, that's the way to do it. You're going to have to bring Kenny back somehow.
Character Developments in NJPW
00:33:17
Speaker
Well, and look at how many people they've tried to make since then, right? We already talked about Jay White. We're going to talk about somebody else in a little bit. And they're trying to make these guys just so it's somebody other than Okada and Naito at the top of the card since Kenny's been gone, yet he just passed over the obvious candidate that everyone wanted it to be.
00:33:38
Speaker
And that's where I'm at with New Japan, where I don't know what the hell's going on. Because the last two guys, including this one they just made, is not my favorite guy. It's not a guy like I'm behind yet.
00:33:52
Speaker
Yeah, well, I think, you know, I'll say this, that Jay White, I hated, I really did not, I strongly disliked when he won the title, but I at least get it. I follow the booking, I follow the mega heel, and you know what, he is a really good wrestler. He wasn't always- He's gotten there. Yeah, he wasn't always my favorite cup of tea, but he's gotten to be legitimately very, very elite good in ring. Well, he's the modern Larry Zabisco.
00:34:21
Speaker
Why, eh, I'd give him a little more credit. Larry Zabisco is, no, I mean Zabisco was a top-level worker, but he just worked in this very slow and truly heelish way, right? There was no liking Larry Zabisco when you watched him wrestle. And I think that's one of the things that works for Jay White is that he wrestles in this slow, heelish way where there's just nothing about him that makes you go like, aw, man, Jay White, this is super fun. And I think that's actually part of the charm in terms of him being a heel is that he's really
00:34:50
Speaker
kind of unpleasant, in a deliberate way now. I think it wasn't always this way, but I think now, I think in almost a deliberate way, he's unpleasant to watch wrestle. Do you think that that's actually something that a lot of wrestlers deal with now, is that there's heels, but they still have moves in their arsenals that fans give a baby face reaction to because there's either a high spot or it's a signature move that pops the crowd, and that's not what a heel's job is to do?
00:35:17
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's actually why where White is stealing from Zabisco works is that it's not that he's made himself, like given himself boring moves, it's that his pacing is so deliberate that you see that cool move and then he just sort of kind of slowly moves around and you're just like, like you're waiting for the match to get like, oh, like fun and like,
00:35:42
Speaker
you know kind of take a level up and I think he's healing you by like not giving you that like oh man it's a bang bang new japan new japan um finish well it's too many zemas uh sorry tai chi like tai chi and zac win i just so many zemas i
00:36:02
Speaker
Zima kick party this is one of those things that I feel like I would say I don't like watching Jay White I don't like him and then as we start dissecting it Derek's gonna ask me are you just being worked or do you not like him
00:36:18
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, go for it, go for it, Derek. There's something to that, though. And I know that when I watch wrestling with my girlfriend all the time, we'll be sitting there and I'll be watching a heel or something work at a match and she'll turn to me and she'll be like, I don't like that guy. And I'll be like, good, you're not supposed to. He's being a fucking dick and he's not giving you what you want to see. Right.
00:36:38
Speaker
You almost have to work the crowd forth dimensionally, because since everybody's in on the fact that it's a work anyway, part of the job now is to not give the fans exactly what they want to see. Well, and that's the thing where Ghetto is so much better than most bookers that, again, we can forgive the JY thing because he's, again, graded on the mic and stuff like that as being a smarmy heel that he could have been the romantic foil in a 98 Adam Sandler movie or something like that. He's the one dating the girl at the beginning.
00:37:07
Speaker
And also we got that moment of just, again, Okada clotheslining his face off at Madison Square Garden. And that's the lasting thing that we can kind of retrospectively go, you know what? It got us that moment. I can kind of buy in on it. And Ghetto is good at...
00:37:27
Speaker
making us go, you know what, it ended well, so I buy it. But that's where the narrative of, well, but what about if Ibushi was champion? And even if you have that same moment and it's Ibushi Okada, that's still a fucking match I want to see a lot. And if you look at, they keep trying to build heels and build heels and build heels over the last couple of years in New Japan, since really the Bullet Club stopped being heels, the elite Bullet Club,
00:37:54
Speaker
And why? When you think about the greatest matches in Japanese history, how many of them are a traditional face versus heel matchup? Hardly fucking any of them. Why do we need this? Japan, if anywhere, is the one place where that heel face designation is the least important. It's the one where it's the most presented as sport. It's fine if you wrote for the White Sox, I wrote for the Yankees.
00:38:19
Speaker
That doesn't mean the whole country thinks one of them are heels, although they do think the Yankees are heels. The Yankees are heels. But I think this is a good transition into the New Japan Cup and New Japan coming back, because I will say, when we talk about New Japan being sport,
00:38:39
Speaker
That's one of my favorite things about it in some ways is that you can watch their tournaments like you're watching the NCAA tournament and they can give you this sort of joy that wrestling tournaments often do not work as.
00:38:55
Speaker
If you were trying to describe that to somebody who doesn't watch pro wrestling and who primarily has only heard of WWE and you said to them, New Japan feels more like a real sport, how would you describe that to them? How does that get presented differently?
00:39:11
Speaker
Well, I think from the tournament perspective in particular, WWE and a lot of wrestling, I don't want to just pick on that, a lot of wrestling companies over the years when they do tournaments have tried to run from the idea that every match has a winner and loser. And so if there's something exciting down the road or if there's a matchup that you're like, oh, that'd be pretty cool. A lot of times the way they'll avoid that.
00:39:34
Speaker
is a double DQ or a count-out. If you're like, how are they going to get this top guy out of the tournament? Or is he going to win it? The answer would be, oh, he'll lose, but he won't really lose. Whereas in New Japan, with the one exception in this tournament, which was pretty hilarious with Hiromu and
00:39:55
Speaker
Nyano. Such a good match. One of my favorites. There's a winner and a loser, right? And so if the top guy isn't going to win the tournament, that means he's losing somewhere. And that's going to bring someone up a level. And that's kind of fun. And there's a different sort of level of who's going to win today that is exciting and knowing that they're going to pay it off with a win in the way that if you go and watch the NCAA tournament, you know that there's going to be a winner and a loser to that basketball game. And there's not going to be a double countdown.
00:40:23
Speaker
Well, and I would also liken it to like, if WWE is a soap opera, right? It just feels like they need something sensational every episode and it's going to go on forever. Whereas an individual tournament or card for New Japan is like live theater, right? Where it's like, it is, here is one story that we're telling that has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And you need to work a little bit for it. We're not going to spoon feed you exposition, but
00:40:52
Speaker
it's going to be worth it to get there, right? They're willing for it to be boring briefly, right? They're willing to have that match where you're like, yeah, I mean... Well, I wouldn't even say... Ishii's going to beat that guy, right? You're like, Okada's definitely beating Nagata. It's going to be a fun match, but Okada's definitely winning. Whereas WWE, and AEW I think to some extent too, although I think they're pretty good, they're a little bit more willing to sort of
00:41:16
Speaker
have those moments where the winner is not in doubt, there's that constant need to be like, this has to be dramatic, right? Whereas sometimes, look, sometimes New Japan isn't dramatic, and I actually think sometimes that's why it's fun, is that it builds to those dramatic moments as opposed to trying to create them constantly.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's also like sports, right? That in the NCAA tournament, when the 16 plays the 1, very rarely is that a really dramatic match that goes right down to the end. And that's OK. And that's what makes it special when a 16 seed upsets the 1, is that it's not happening all the time. Well, and everything is earned, right? So I think some people wouldn't find New Japan boring, but they don't give a shit if you think it is boring.
00:42:02
Speaker
because they know where they're going and they're not going to change it. They're not going to call an audible. And I think there's something kind of great about that. And I think that that's part of why it interestingly worked better than other empty arena stuff when they started doing these New Japan Cup matches. It still felt like an athletic competition.
00:42:26
Speaker
But it felt like theater, honestly. Whereas, like, WWE and AEW, I think they needed to get some people around the ring to kind of somewhat, even above everything else, kind of mask the fakeness of it. Whereas... Well, and here's the thing, if anyone's done any sort of acting, right, I liken it that WWE, and AEW to a lesser extent, AEW kind of sits in the middle here, but WWE is very much like a musical, right? Like, everyone's cheating out, there's jazz hands, you're performing to the crowd, very much.
00:42:56
Speaker
Whereas New Japan is a bit like a play in that the actors, obviously they're interested in the crowd's response, but they're engaging sort of face to face with each other. And that kind of makes it from an empty arena perspective a little bit more palatable because they're just sort of engaged with each other. And it's not like people are doing poses to emptiness all the time.
00:43:17
Speaker
That almost has nothing to do with the emptiness of the arena. I think that with WWE, they made a conscious decision when they went to HD that they probably told their talent across the board that we're shooting this in HD. You absolutely at all times are performing for the camera. Whereas a lot of times with watching New Japan, it feels like if the show's going on, the camera just happens to be there.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah, is that fair to say yeah, yeah, and again I think it's it's again, and I think they definitely play more for the the crowd there than the TV cameras But again, it's it's just like the way that if you're in a theater production
00:44:01
Speaker
If you're doing a dress rehearsal without a crowd there, you probably can still hit all the same notes. It can still be just as good even if nobody's there. Because you're focusing on the performance itself. And I just think it really worked in those regards. And I think the tournament's also great. Because like the NCAA tournament, I watch pretty much every New Japan card that comes out. I watch even just the Quark and Halt shows.
00:44:29
Speaker
But like I was I was like during lunch at work like putting just a random Nagata match from the cup to you know on my screen the way I would like sneak a couple of minutes of the NCAA tournament or like opening day of baseball while I'm at work.
00:44:46
Speaker
And I would never do that. Even as much as I love AAW, I don't do that with AAW, because it just kind of has this interesting feel where I'm also just excited. It's the same way like a seven versus an eight NCAA tournament. I'm just kind of interested in who wins that match. I don't think that either one of them are necessarily going to win the whole tournament or do anything, you know, become national champion. But I can still just love a seven versus an eight just because.
00:45:15
Speaker
So if we're segwaying out of this discussion because we really haven't hit Wrestle Kingdom as hard as we could have What were some other highlights that you want to discuss from that show before we start talking about the new Japan Cup?
00:45:26
Speaker
I want to mention that Chris did mention Juice Robinson briefly. Nobody mentioned he could have been Juicy Two Belts. He won the tag titles with his partner, David Finlay, and then challenged Mox for the US title. So he was this close to also leaving with two title belts.
00:45:48
Speaker
He's a guy I kind of feel bad for sort of being left behind right now and sort of being in the US that he had a lot of momentum. And I think there was directions he was going that I think would have been paid off this year a little bit and kind of not getting the chance to do that, unfortunately. And anybody want to say anything about Liger?
00:46:08
Speaker
I mean, I love his polo shirts now on commentary. He looks great on commentary No, I love like I mean like here's one of those guys that I were sort of respect is a legend and I enjoyed but I also wasn't as aggressively following it in the 90s and particularly in sort of the 2000s and stuff so I have this like sort of weird thing of his career where I totally was love his matches and watched a lot of them in the 90s, but
00:46:37
Speaker
I, in some ways, felt like I was underappreciating how much this meant to everyone. It's always kind of awkward sometimes when you see that, when you're like, I get it, but I'm also not, I'm not crying with Tanahashi. I mean, Tanahashi was sobbing in the ring during the retirement. Like, I'm not crying with him, you know?
00:46:54
Speaker
When I think we forget that the junior title means so much more over there than we can comprehend, right, in that for here would be like, oh, you know, like Dean Malenko retired. It just be like, yeah, I mean, Dean Malenko was great, but the titles he won are garbage titles that don't mean anything.
00:47:13
Speaker
Whereas, you know, we forgot like the junior title over there, best of the best of the super juniors, super Jacob. These are like marquee events right just right there with the heavyweight stuff. And do you guys feel about Liger retiring?
00:47:31
Speaker
I didn't have a lot of, you got to see Liger work at PWG a few times, didn't you, Garrett? Yeah, I think the first time I saw Liger work live was him versus Chris Hero. And then after that was, he did a couple comedy matches. But I mean, there was something in that room you could feel that seeing Liger live was special, especially against a guy like Chris Hero.
00:47:56
Speaker
I don't have a ton of memories. I remember seeing Liger a few times in WCW. And then I remember years later being shocked when he showed up to wrestle Tyler Breeze in NXT. So yeah, I mean, definitely like one of the legends of the sport and kind of an emotional emotional event because of it.
00:48:19
Speaker
Yeah, New Japan does retirement ceremonies well. I sort of enjoy that aspect of the, like, the Nakanishi one was kind of fun. The ISCA one the year before. Yeah, one thing you can reliably find is that you can watch a New Japan retirement ceremony. It's kind of a weird, interesting, kind of fun, good time. I can't wait to see the Jay White retirement ceremony. Long and drawn out. Yeah. Which, OK, what wrestler that's still going to be around is going to be the one crying the hardest for Jay White.
00:48:50
Speaker
Ooh. Well, Guido. He's still there behind scenes, yeah. Suzuki will still be there. He's not crying, though. He's laughing. He's not crying. Crying tears of lava. People are going to be crying at Suzuki's retirement ceremony, and he's going to be pointing and laughing at them. It's going to be incredible. Oh, my god. And then we get Suzuki on commentary wearing a polo shirt.
00:49:20
Speaker
And his hat, a jaunty hat. Oh, he's always got a zazzy hat on. So I'm grabbing the steering wheel. New Japan Cup. Some time has passed. Get us up to speed with how we got here.
00:49:34
Speaker
Well, I mean, so, you know, they did a couple other cards after that. Kenta ends up getting a shot. Didn't really work there. There was that, and I think, Chris, you already mentioned that kick-ass Suzuki versus Jon Moxley match. That's something everyone should check out. But then, end of February, they, because New Japan, unlike the other, they take breaks frequently. It's not just after Wrestle Kingdom. They do a tour, then they take a little break, and then they do a tour.
00:50:04
Speaker
So they finished a tour and then basically coronavirus hit before the next tour started. And they, being a more rational culture than America, decided that pro wrestling maybe wasn't worth risking people's lives. Although it's worth noting that some of the other Japanese promotions did do some empty arena shows. So it's not like
00:50:29
Speaker
you know that there was nothing happening in japan i know i did some shows i think all too big but much less i will also note then w w e w where they were doing one every week sure and you look at like tana hashi did stuff like with the government he did videos they did like it's not comparable i mean and especially his new job no i don't want to compare i mean that's comparisons but anyway so they net they don't do shows and then eventually it what they did is
00:50:56
Speaker
The Japanese government had the system of when you could start doing live shows again. And they figured out it was going to be like mid-July is when they could do a show with fans. So they scheduled New Japan Cup finals. They scheduled Dominion to be the next night. And then they said, we're going to do a series of empty arena shows to do the New Japan Cup tournament to lead up to those two shows with live fans in the seats. And so they're all empty arena. And then they were doing what, two or three a week.
00:51:26
Speaker
Shows and there were some really good Matches I we certainly aren't gonna hit on every match. It's a single elimination tournament, but Chris why don't you hit some of the ones? There's a couple just from the first round that I think were really sensational
00:51:42
Speaker
The first round, it was interesting because it was just a joy in having New Japan back. I don't like to tell too many kids' stories, but the night before New Japan was coming back for their first show, my daughter, who was normally a very good sleeper, was just not into sleeping. And in attempting to say,
00:52:03
Speaker
No, little one. If you don't go to sleep, no Frozen for you tomorrow. My wife looked at me and she's like, Chris, she's two. She doesn't understand tomorrow. But what she did hear was Frozen. And so I took it one for the team and I watched Frozen with her from about 12 to 2 in the morning.
00:52:24
Speaker
Literally sitting there thinking like if I can't wake up in the morning to watch New Japan on time daddy's gonna be very angry
00:52:34
Speaker
But I will tell you, she went to bed right after Frozen ended. And I woke up like a shot at six in the morning the next day. And I was like, literally, I looked over. Like a kid on Christmas? Yeah, like six in the morning on the dot. And I was like, all right, time for some New Japan. And so it was just nice to have it back. And so there was a real kind of joy. Because that's part of the thing about New Japan is that it has this different place in our lives, WWE and AEW. It's something you watch in the evening.
00:53:04
Speaker
on a weeknight, whereas New Japan just sort of pops up on a weekday morning. And it sort of is helping make my day better. So even without the great matches, I'd be like, this was fun to have back. I think in the first round, I think the clear winner was Suzuki and Nagata, which was wild. Yes, please. I think wild. I personally say that was the best match of the entire tournament. And I never thought I would have said that about a Yuji Nagata match.
00:53:32
Speaker
But him and Suzuki have wrestled so god damn many times. And they have such good chemistry. And they clearly have old man stamina that, as I mentioned before, some of the wrestlers in their prime were showing major ring rust and didn't have the endurance. Yet somehow, old man Nagata and fucking Suzuki, the devil himself,
00:53:57
Speaker
pulled out just an unbelievable match that was dramatic. It was just fucking amazing. Can you imagine a match in the States starting with like 10 straight minutes of elbows and palm strikes just back and forth? Probably not. You know, like Randy would pull that off. This was the grumpy old men of matches. This was Jack Lemon versus Walter Mathau.
00:54:28
Speaker
Well, and I think it was the second match in that episode, right? So normally, you watch that each match is longer than the last, and usually the last match is gonna be the best match. And this kind of really came out of left field. It's like the second match on the card, two old timers, just came out of fucking nowhere. Yeah, that was a pretty, that was a lot of fun. And then I think the other big standout from the first round was Show versus Shingo Takagi.
00:54:56
Speaker
Where the fuck did show come from? Like, how long has this build for show been going?
00:55:03
Speaker
I gotta admit that I know sometimes both Rapangi 3K guys can get some love. Show gets more, and I've been noticing online people have been talking big about Show. And I know he had some great matches in Super Junior tournament last year, but that match was like, holy shit. Literally that match is when it clicked for me where I'm like, I get what all these people online are talking about. He really does need to get a singles push. He needs to Genetti the fuck out of Yo.
00:55:36
Speaker
Do you remember seeing him at Ring of Honor? That's what I was going to bring up. We saw them, what was that, three years ago at Ring of Honor? This was like lower card every time I would go to a Ring of Honor show, the Tim Purah boys. I was going to say that name. Yeah, I mean... Maybe they came up with it.
00:55:58
Speaker
Well, and that's another thing, too, is that these guys, Show and Shingo, had a match at the Super Junior tournament that was fucking amazing. They have this match in the empty arenas that's even better and is very clearly setting up a Dominion match for them to have a third match against each other for the Never Openweight title, which I remember I posed to Chris before Dominion. I said, if Show wins a singles title, does he get his last name back?
00:56:28
Speaker
Where in WWE, you're always in jeopardy of losing your name. Yeah. And that, I mean, we could talk kind of non-linearly. All three, like these show and shingo have some kind of crazy chemistry together. And I like both of those guys normally. But my God, when you put the two of them together, just magic happens.
00:56:51
Speaker
Well, when you guys were giving me a list of matches that I needed to watch to catch up, you told me, at the very least, go check out some of the multi-man matches with Jingo and Show. Yeah. Yeah, I checked out one of those first. And just seeing the chemistry in just one of these multi-man matches got me to go back and check out the singles match.
00:57:15
Speaker
It's like when you watch an action movie and you just look at the chemistry of the two lead actors and you're like, I bet they fucked when the cameras stopped rolling. I bet they fucked in real life. That's show and shingo for me. I bet those two either have fucked or legitimately fight over some shit. Shared a woman, used to be roommates and it didn't end well.
00:57:44
Speaker
you know, Shingo would never clean the microwave. Like they've got some shit pent up that they're they're working through in the ring and I like it. Well, I want to hear. So Garrett, what was your because you're a Heromu guy. I think we're all I think I thought Heromu was the other like star of the tournament. Like pretty much every Heromu match was insane in some way or another. What was your favorite? The fact that he got his hair lobbed off.
00:58:10
Speaker
Which was a call back to something that Yano had done. See, this is why New Japan is great. They paid off in a random second round New Japan Cup match. They paid off something that Yano did to Hiromu when Hiromu was a young lion like eight years earlier.
00:58:32
Speaker
And that match wasn't like a good technical match by any means, but was fun as fuck. See, I didn't know that going into it. Just watching it with just Japanese commentary, not knowing any of the story. It is just a story of one man is trying to cut this man's hair. And it still works. And it worked perfectly. I mean, Ed Leslie made a career out of that.
00:58:57
Speaker
Can we talk for a moment? I actually panicked at the end of that match when Takahashi had to try to simultaneously get in the ring with the other guy, and I just thought about the logistics of how that was going to work, and how trying to do that is like trying to do anything when you're a little too intoxicated. Like, who's jumping first?
00:59:18
Speaker
I was worried there was going to be a double count out because they were just going to have to honor the situation. Well, and I don't know about you guys, but I think part of me, I'm so conditioned for like WWE tournaments where there's always double count outs and double DQs. And I'm like, oh, and that way you can hotshot Ishii.
00:59:35
Speaker
to go against, you know, Okada in the quarterfinals or semifinals. I was just like, I thought it might be a double count out because they got to get rid of Haromu and maybe they don't want him to lose, but they can't have this junior weight beating all these heavyweights. And it's legitimately dramatic, even though I'm like, oh, wait, it's New Japan. They don't do that.
00:59:54
Speaker
They don't do fuck finishes. That's the thing about Hiromu's run was that because it's so rare for a junior to beat a heavyweight, from the first match on, it was sort of thrilling, right? You're like, OK. Even the near falls against Honma, who's like a pretty low card guy, you're like, I don't know. I mean, he could beat Hiromu because Hiromu's just a junior. And so that match was kind of fun. The Yano match, the Ishii match is crazy. So that's my favorite.
01:00:22
Speaker
I think that's my second favorite after Suzuki and Nagata, but that match was... I couldn't argue with that as the best match of the tournament. That was my favorite match out of the ones I caught up on was the Ishii Takahashi match. I thought that was fantastic.
01:00:41
Speaker
Well, and again, part of it, because, you know, New Japan, while, yes, there's always going to be a winner and they do do surprises, a lot of times you can kind of figure out where they're going. That was kind of one of the ones where you're like, I mean, beating Ishii is a big deal. I mean, that's not nothing. And so, Hiromu going over there was a bit of a surprise, not again, not a surprise, but there was so much drama in that match because you're like, this really could go either way.
01:01:07
Speaker
Well, and just to show how big of New Japan dorks we are, Chris and I had a full dissection of the bracket the day it came out. And we did a bracket challenge. We did one with some friends of ours. And I remember one of the first things that went in is the fact that they made it an open weight tournament because obviously a lot of all the foreigners outside of Zack Sabre and Gabriel Kidd, there's no foreigners, right? Because of the quarantine travel.
01:01:31
Speaker
So the first thing I looked at, it was like, oh my God, looks like we're probably going to get Okada versus Ishimori and then Okada versus Hiromu. Like, we never get to see Okada go against juniors two matches in a row. This is going to be incredible. And I was just so excited about how fresh the matchups were that I hope this convinces them to change the New Japan Cup forever more to be an open weight tournament and just let the winner challenge for whatever fucking belt they want. Right.
01:02:01
Speaker
I think it's great because I really love, and yeah, you see them mix in six mans and stuff, but I really love seeing a good junior and a good heavyweight have a solid singles match. And, you know, both the Hiromu and Ishimori matches against Okada were both really, really good. I mean, no doubt Okada has good match against good worker, but I mean, that's why New Japan is awesome. They have a lot of great workers.
01:02:34
Speaker
So can we address the elephant in the room? The evil elephant? Yes. Purple elephant. How this turned out.
01:02:45
Speaker
So, I mean, they set it up pretty... This is the thing that I was disappointed by, is that New Japan does gimmicks, right? They do angles. They have storylines. But it turned out that they had a good storyline going with Evil in this tournament, that he was having fuck finishes, he was cheating, he was doing anything to win. Which isn't totally out of character for LIJ, by the way. I mean, their baby faces... His name is Evil. And his name is Evil.
01:03:14
Speaker
Let's just set it up for people just so everyone's on the same page, right? So, Evil wins his first-round match in a pretty normal, straightforward way. And by the way, it was his only good match of the tournament. Basically. He kicks Gotou in the balls, and beats him that way. Destroys Yoshihashi's knee with a chair before the match. Apparently, Yoshihashi was hurt, and so they need to get that one done quickly.
01:03:38
Speaker
Then you know turns basically on sonata in their semi-final match A match where sonata like nearly gave himself a stinger not a classic gotta say guys. Oh that was that was fucking brutal Yeah, right. I mean he was laying there, and you're like literally like the referee's just asking me you're like I think Should they do should they just end the match is that?
01:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, they should have learned from Edge and Randy Orton. Like, this shit ain't live, just fucking edit it, right? Just call the finish and you can film it again later if you don't like that finish. If Sonata's still alive. They weren't willing to risk that, apparently. Yeah, apparently.
01:04:23
Speaker
But then, of course, so the tournament final is Okada and Evil. Evil wins with help from the Bullet Club after the match. And this was actually, I think, one of my favorite visuals here, which is that Naito comes out and is like, hey, we're going to wrestle each other tomorrow, puts up the LIJ fist, and then Evil throws up the two sweet into the fist.
01:04:49
Speaker
and turns on him. And I don't think Naito looked like that much of a geek because, again, they've established that LIJ is willing to cheat to win sometimes, right? Like, they are not straight white meat babyfaces. The fact that he'd already had a little help from the Bullet Club probably should have been a giveaway that I didn't love it. But, you know, that moment was pretty cool. But maybe they were just trying to fuck over Okada.
01:05:14
Speaker
Maybe, but I mean my problem overall with that ending is that a I'm not that excited about Naito versus evil as a main event of a big pay-per-view a little on the first big show back and then and then B you've turned not only this you turn this whole tournament
01:05:36
Speaker
into this one angle and It just feels like a lot of work to have gone through to just get to Evil's gonna be evil and join the Bullet Club. I Did like the dick togo reveal though
01:05:56
Speaker
That's in the next match, right? I thought we were straight into that, right? Because obviously, if you're, spoilers, I guess, if you're listening to this for some reason and haven't caught up,
01:06:13
Speaker
You know, Evil wins the match against Naito with help from Dick Togo. And it's for both the heavyweight and intercontinental championship. So he is now a triple champion because, again, in the maybe Guido's not always a genius camp, they never took the six man title off him as a member of LIJ. So the six man champions are still him, Shingo and Bushi. Yeah, but
01:06:44
Speaker
I mean, so why don't we just talk about that match, right? Because that's the other thing. Naito versus Evil. And Evil's had good matches. I don't hate Evil in the ring as a general rule. I actually like Evil a lot better than Sonata in the ring as a, for instance, of guys kind of at that level.
01:07:00
Speaker
But that match against Naito was hot garbage. Before we even got to those, I was actually thinking about our conversation we had about Randy Orton versus Edge, where I was a little bit like, I think you guys are calling this a New Japan title match, a little bit too hard because it doesn't feel like it to me.
01:07:21
Speaker
This was the nightmare version of a New Japan title match where it is slow and boring and just lacks purpose. Yeah, go ahead. This makes me so happy that you're saying this because I started with basically watching the end of the New Japan Cup and then immediately watching the main event of Dominion.
01:07:48
Speaker
So I kind of watched everything backwards. But starting with that is like the second match I watched. I was like, holy shit, this I don't think I love this. And I was not excited to watch anything else after. No, I don't. Here's here's kind of a hot hot take. I think we're in a weird period for New Japan main events right now because because they didn't make a bushia top guy when they had a chance.
01:08:13
Speaker
That, too. But I think when we look back at this period in a few years, in 10 years, and we'll be looking back at this in 20 years, I think. I think this is going to be a very memorable period for wrestling. I think we're going to say that the New Japan main event style, which was really started by Tanahashi and Nakamura, and then kind of passed on with Okada and Naito, I think we're going to say that peaked with Okada and Kenny.
01:08:41
Speaker
I think their series is going to be Flair Steamboat and those are the matches that are going to be memorable and now we're in this period where they're still trying to work these matches and of course Okada can.
01:08:58
Speaker
to see Okada go 35 with someone. But unfortunately, not everyone can do that. And it's a little bit to me like the period after Flare Steamboat and Flare Funk in the NWA, where it's like, okay, now we're going to try to make some new guys. We're going to try to make Sting. We're going to try to make Luger. But unfortunately, those guys had to work
01:09:19
Speaker
35-40 minute matches with Flair, which is not their thing, and were judged on that standard. And people were like, well, like, stings lesser because he's not Flair. Evil should not be working 30 plus minute matches. It's not good. Like, if Evil can work a 20 minute main event, I think even maybe Abushi, although he certainly has the stamina to go long, I think from a structural perspective, he might be better off working a 20 to 25 minute main event.
01:09:46
Speaker
All those guys, I think, are going to be done a big disservice if they can't get past the idea that every title match has to be 35 minutes. It doesn't have to be Brock Lesnar. We don't have to bring it down to two, but can we get it? Can we do a surprising one at about 10 minutes, but can we get them to 25 if it's not a big Okada title match?
01:10:07
Speaker
Well, and there was something interesting that Meltzer and Alvarez were talking about that I caught, which was also this title match with Naito and Evil. Again, the whole thing, it's the same thing as the tournament. Why are you wasting so much of my time to just do an angle? Just get to the fucking point. Why do I have to watch 35 minutes of not great wrestling
01:10:32
Speaker
with tons of interference, an inept ref that doesn't notice things, some botch spots,
01:10:40
Speaker
just to get to a fuck finish. If you're gonna do that, just give it 10 minutes and get to the fuck finish, right? The two matches before that, by the way, Shoshingo, again, knocked it out of the park. The tag title match was really good, right? So, I would have been happy. Finally, Tai Chi and Zach, champions, Suzuki goon, Zach's first belt. Tai Chi getting the respect that he deserves. You know what, everyone going silent in there.
01:11:11
Speaker
Do am I supposed to do you love tai chi? So I don't I don't want to say I love tai chi. I'm not like a huge tai chi fan. I hate tai chi I hate it so much I will I will keep this short I I Feel like I sympathize with tai chi as As you know someone who became a dad over the last couple of years tai chi's got the dadbot He became a heavyweight in the middle you know what I mean like he didn't he didn't size up the other way Also loves karaoke
01:11:40
Speaker
Loves it. I feel like I sympathize with Tai Chi there. Doesn't feel like he gets the respect he deserves. And also, things ripping off his pants is hilarious. I mean, that's just a good time, right? And he's so good at... I legitimately forget about the pants ripping 70% of the time. It's hilarious. Because at this point, he's doing it like 32 minutes into a 35-minute match. And I've forgotten by that point.
01:12:10
Speaker
I just and here's my thing I I sympathize and I just sort of enjoy tai chi like again I don't want to make I don't want to defend tai chi and say like oh five star matches tai chi shitting out every week no but I also like the way the facts responded there I love how much people hate tai chi
01:12:27
Speaker
Sometimes it's like good he makes them so irrationally angry that I kind of love that because I'm like It's not as bad as you're saying and it's awesome that you're that angry Dave Meltzer But I think that Tai Chi works better as a heel then like evil does There's something evil that I just don't care for not because he's being evil But just I don't think he's interesting Tai Chi at least is doing a good job
01:12:53
Speaker
of effectively making me hate him for being annoying.
01:13:05
Speaker
Well, that, I think, was the sign of it, right? The fact that they gave him one of Jericho's five New Japan matches is kind of a big deal. But it's weird, because they didn't really follow up on that, and he's kind of just been a mid-card guy for a while. And that's kind of the interesting thing with this, too, is the other kind of, the elephant in the room on the booking is, Guido is known for booking way ahead of time, a year ahead of time.
01:13:30
Speaker
but he obviously didn't know a pandemic was coming. So is it possible somebody like Jay White was maybe supposed to win the tournament and go against Naito and maybe even take the title from Naito, maybe another foreigner? Like the tournament plans had to change, right? Like Hiromu almost made the semi-finals and he wasn't even in the original tournament, right? So it is interesting if and when we find out, was this the plan? Cause I'm not,
01:13:58
Speaker
So sure I'm buying it was the plan and then Guido though already knowing what he's doing Next g1 and next Wrestle Kingdom. I think he just figured well, I need a guy I need to make somebody I need a transitional champ
01:14:16
Speaker
Evil. He did pretty good with Jericho. He's had some pretty good matches. He seems like, you know, he's worth giving it a shot, even though guys like Suzuki and Ishii and Gotou have never won the title, but... or... Gotou Bushi, as I've mentioned a couple times. But, I don't know. I think that's the interesting thing is...
01:14:35
Speaker
Why I have a tough time believing evil winning that tournament and winning the title was the plan, especially if you were if you were going to guess, though, where's all this going? If you were forced today to be like, is this the beginning of an L.I.J. implosion, possibly?
01:14:58
Speaker
Do you start tearing that down? I don't think so, right? I think that if you were going to do that, you do that. And I think having one guy splinter off, you kind of set up more of a traditional stable war now between Bullet Club and LIJ. And I think that's the direction.
01:15:15
Speaker
And I think Chris and I were actually texting the other day. I think there's some really interesting stuff when the foreigners come back to Bullet Club. And Kenta, by the way, who's obviously not a foreigner, but I guess he lives in Florida now, and he's been out of the country. He's not available for New Japan. Call Florida by its proper name, Pandemicville. Pandemicville. The Pandemic Panhandle. But it'd be interesting when those guys come back,
01:15:44
Speaker
Like now there's two leaders, like Jay White's the leader of the Bullet Club, but now Evil's the leader of the Bullet Club. They could do a little Civil War action there. But I- Does Evil being in the Bullet Club raise the stakes of the Bullet Club enough for you to care again?
01:15:59
Speaker
About the bull. No, I was going to ask. I care less about the bull club than I do with Jay White leading the bull club, because at least there they have Toma Tonga and Toma Loa and and, you know, Falle. They're not my top top heel stable, but they're fine. Whereas evil and Ishimori and fucking dick to go like. Why do I care about this at all?
01:16:27
Speaker
I think part of it is they're trying, right? They're not sure when they're going to be able to get the foreigners back. That's why they're pushing Yujiro Takahashi into a match with Okada. Apparently New Japan is doing pretty well and has some big TV slots, and to me that match seems like Hulk Hogan wrestling Nikolai Volkov in Saturday Night's Main Event.
01:16:52
Speaker
There's no way you giros winning that match. And if if I'm wrong about that, holy crap. I thought I thought Volkoff was a big deal when I was a kid. I thought he was a big time heel. But I was going to ask if the travel ban gets lifted at some point in the next couple of months. Is there a chance that gals and Anderson come back? Oh, I think strongly. Oh, yeah, I would agree with that. Get worked back into the story.
01:17:20
Speaker
I mean, it'd be fun to see them back. Yeah, I mean, I do feel like they're kind of creating this Bullet Club Japan. It does feel like they're going to go to NWO red and black versus black and white kind of direction at some point with maybe, you know, Bullet Club Japan versus Bullet Club US. And certainly, Anderson Gallows make the US team or the just not Japan team, I think a little bit more interesting.
01:17:47
Speaker
But I mean, the main event wise, the other thing is NJ Cup on the original calendar happens in March. The winner would get kind of a pay-per-view, but a much smaller pay-per-view. I got to think the original plan was that Naito was dropping the title at Dominion. I don't think it was against evil. I think it's probably Jay White or
01:18:11
Speaker
I can't even think of who else it could be. Maybe it was evil, but I don't think so. And I think that they're just sticking to it because Guido already knows where they're going for Wrestle Kingdom next year. I don't know if we're finally going to be leading up to an Ibushi coronation or what, but.
01:18:29
Speaker
I think that he's just said, hey, Naito needs to lose because I got another direction we're going. We need a heel champion. We're not turning Naito heel. Evil's fine. And in a couple of months from now, we'll find out, I think, what the original plan was, which is, again, where I think ultimately,
01:18:49
Speaker
that plan with Jay White and Kenny losing to Ta-Nehisi, then Jay White, ultimately that was Okada's getting the title back at MSG. And I think that Guido, and it's probably with the G1 winner, and it's probably at Wrestle Kingdom, I think that's the part that Guido's saying is locked in, and I might as well roll the dice with Evil for a little while until then. And hey, maybe we catch something.
01:19:16
Speaker
But why evil? That's what I don't get.
Sonata's Heel Turn: Strategic Move?
01:19:25
Speaker
Again, I think he was the guy to turn heel. I don't think Sonata is a great heel. And so if someone's turning on Naito, I think he's the one that makes sense.
01:19:38
Speaker
I don't love him being champion, but as you said, I think maybe, look, maybe the original plan was him turning on Naito to give Jay White the title, something like that. Would Takahashi have been interesting? Oh, yeah. Takahashi would have been Hiromu. Yeah.
01:19:55
Speaker
Oh, and Hiromu. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was very interesting. Oh, I think he'd be very, very interesting. And I mean, he's way more popular, right? And they were already setting up that that was the first big match we didn't get. It was supposed to be Naito versus Takahashi at the anniversary show.
01:20:11
Speaker
And now apparently that's the first evil title defense we're getting. Takahashi did challenge him. He came out and challenged evil after that and he said, you know, next big show, you and me, if you're too afraid to put up both titles, put up one, you pick. And so that's apparently where they're going. You're filling me in on information I did not have.
01:20:35
Speaker
This was in a press conference, apparently at some point overnight. It was posted on New Japan World this morning. And again, I know a little bit of Japanese. I have a little help from the internet, you know, and I have some people out there. So, yeah. I was fucking impressed because I was like, you got all that from him screaming at the end of that match?
01:20:59
Speaker
The Heromu memes of him screaming are chef's kiss.
Naito's Underdog Popularity
01:21:04
Speaker
Oh my god. I had a buddy send me one of him with his face over somebody from Midsummer. The movie? Well, I'll give Angel, our friend Angel, from Pro Wrestling Mainly credit for this one. He was like, it was Simba screaming over Nala.
01:21:27
Speaker
I like like cuz cuz he'd kind of killed Naito in that moment or you know he's not dead but You know and her Romu is like a little king of the jungle Like a tiger lion a lion a lion he's a lion king I think you would have generated a little bit more of a like a shock factor that people would have reacted positively to if it was Takahashi in this spot and
01:21:53
Speaker
But do you want to turn him heal though? People love him. It would take him to the next level. Well, and then you can always do a double turn with Naito too, right? You can do, you can do a little bit of a longer program. And I think, you know, I think it needs to be someone like that because that's the other thing is going back to like Naito
01:22:14
Speaker
is that other guy with Okada, that he's been the most popular or second most popular guy. And I would say Naito is the most popular guy of the last several years. And now, once again, it just feels like they give him a title, they finally give him a big win.
01:22:32
Speaker
And yeah, Covid happens, but it just kind of feels like they fuck him over. They give you this other. He's kind of like the Daniel Bryan of of New Japan, is that even when through force of will he gets so hard over, they have to put him over in the biggest way possible. It doesn't really last that long.
East vs West: Booking Styles Compared
01:22:54
Speaker
You know, I don't know whether he's slept with one of Guido's daughters, or his wife, or there's... He's just an asshole behind the stand. And to be clear, as a lawyer, this is all alleged. I don't even... I don't know if Guido is married or even has kids, but there's something... Maybe it's that he's preserving the legacy of Okada. It's a little strange, and I know that they ran through a lot of kind of big match-ups, and they did a very long...
01:23:23
Speaker
program with Naito against Ibushi already and he's obviously fought Okada a bunch of times and Tana Hashi a bunch of times but like it just does feel weird and I know that technically his title frame was about six months but he basically got one title match against his two title matches against Kenta and Evil that's hardly a murderer's row that seems very akin to Daniel Bryan's post WrestleMania 30 title shots being against Kane fucking Kane
01:23:54
Speaker
isn't though typically a lot of time the formula that it's it's better to have the title on a heel like it like once isn't the usually the formula that the baby faces big moment is winning the title not necessarily holding it for a long time well that's the
01:24:10
Speaker
Well, no. The reason I disagree with that is that's not the New Japan formula though, right? Is that New Japan doesn't follow any of our Western conventions of like the Ric Flair versus the Hogan as the two models for a champion. And, you know, Okada has been a babyface
01:24:31
Speaker
for a while and was always the top guy that had super long title reigns. Ta-Nehisi, biggest babyface of all time in New Japan, a lot of title reigns and long reigns. Even Nakamura, right, was
01:24:46
Speaker
a babyface for most of his most popular times. I mean, there isn't any recent history that really suggests a strong heel or just a heel champion working for New Japan.
COVID-19's Impact on Wrestling
01:25:01
Speaker
I mean, I would argue that Jay White is actually one of the better examples of that over the last several years.
01:25:10
Speaker
And he sucks. I think the circumstances are different because of COVID. I think everyone's perception of who the champions are and the length of title reigns is going to be severely impacted by not
01:25:22
Speaker
defending your title or being on tv in front of people i'm with you but i i also think that that freshens up those matchups when you have it when you're in japan and you haven't seen new japan and you're a big fan for ages even if you nobody's gonna be like oh it's a bushy nido again they're gonna be like holy shit it's a bushy and nido that's an awesome main event i'm so into that and i just don't see that happening with evil so are you telling me all those claps i heard were polite
01:25:53
Speaker
We'll talk about that because that wrestling in front of people again It was that yeah, we're kind of burying the lead there right there There was a crowd and that was actually I thought 4,000 people and that was actually one of things I liked about the moment right because you know when drew McIntyre won the title at WrestleMania to silence
01:26:11
Speaker
maybe there would have been cheers, maybe there wouldn't have been had there been people there. But when Evil wins that title against Naito and there's stunned silence, you know that's because there's 4,000 stunned people in the crowd, and that makes the moment feel bigger, at least. Right, right. And especially, I mean, again, you have in the very previous match, you had the Suzuki Gun guys beating Kota Ibushi and Hiroshi Tanahashi for the tag titles. And again, those are...
01:26:39
Speaker
up there with Naito, the next two most popular guys, and they weren't stunned silence. People still cheered them. People still liked them, even though Suzuki got on a very overt heel. People love Tai Chi. I saw Zack Sabre Jr. clapping when Tai Chi was singing. That works.
01:26:59
Speaker
I mean, and again, that's why he also rips off the pants near the end of the match, so the crowd still has that momentum after they win the title. He's gotta save one last pop. If he ever wins the heavyweight title, he's just gonna take the trunks off too. He's just gonna give the world everything.
01:27:20
Speaker
I will say, I do recommend, it's on YouTube, they have the press conference videos. The Tai Chi and Zack Sabre one, after they win the title, is just great to watch them, like, questioningly open the Zemas. For Doki to literally just look at the Zemas and go, wait a minute, I have a mask over my mouth, how does this work?
01:27:50
Speaker
Yeah. Bless Zack Sabre for staying in Japan for three months. Although, frankly, probably better off than the rest of us in America at this point. Yeah, probably. Good for Zack.
Future NJPW Title Changes
01:28:02
Speaker
So let's go with a whip around of who do we think is, and let's just for the pretense of this, let's just say Guido's given up on hoping the foreigners come back. So who do we think is taking this title from evil?
01:28:19
Speaker
Garrett, why don't we start with you? Well, fuck at this point, I hope it's show. I was going to say the same thing, man. He should get an ultimate warrior push now. He should. If he can come back from the tempura boys and be this awesome, he deserves a title.
01:28:38
Speaker
Yeah, I can't. If I'm trying to get somebody over and I want to make all you guys happy, we'll have Naito try to do it for several months and be unable to do it, only to watch Takahashi be the one to take it from him.
01:28:54
Speaker
Well, and just to be clear, I don't actually really like Naito that much myself. It's just, he's undeniably this really popular guy, right? And that's why I think a lot of the fans that on Twitter and online that haven't liked that really took this as that they were the one getting the low blow from evil because they feel like it's Naito not getting his.
01:29:19
Speaker
Well I wasn't saying that as a knock to Naito. I just think that there's really juicy storytelling to have those three guys to have, like you said, if Naito's like the most popular guy in New Japan.
01:29:33
Speaker
to watch him for months, not be able to. It's kind of like, this is a weird comparison, but do you remember sort of the dynamic after Benoit won the title at WrestleMania 20, Triple H couldn't get it back. And it was fucking Orton.
01:29:49
Speaker
who was the one who was able to get the title off of Benoit. And I would love to watch Naito not be able to climb that hill after that failure at Dominion, and then to watch Takahashi kind of rise to the occasion, and it takes him to the next level. Or Shingo or Shinada, potentially.
01:30:10
Speaker
Yeah. I just think there's something fun. I think Hiromu is the guy. I mean, I'm with you that Hiromu is the more fun sort of option. But do you actually think Thal if he's the guy they're going to go with Thal? Because this isn't just who would you do. Like, who do you think Guido is going to do? Because I got a sneaking suspicion that it's going to end up just going back to, you know, Okada, just because we're
01:30:33
Speaker
I mean, I can't imagine that Evil's holding this belt until Wrestle Kingdom, you know? And again, if they can't wait for the foreigners, I mean, maybe Guido, just because he loves him so much, he's waiting out J. White coming back and they're going to finger poke a doom the title over to J. White or something. But I can't imagine that Hiromu's going to win the heavyweight title.
01:30:54
Speaker
Then again, I wouldn't have said that there's any chance Evil was going to win the heavyweight title two weeks ago. So what the fuck do I know? Evil is a double champ right now. Triple. Triple. Triple champ. That's fucked up. That is fucked up. Well, does he if he showed up on NXT or AEW, does he even remotely pop a rating? I don't think so. Right, Evil? No. Does anyone give a shit?
01:31:21
Speaker
I don't think they do. They give a shit now because they have to. Yeah, I guess if he shows up with the title, they do. But if he shows up without the title, just evil shows up. And somehow we're not amazed by any Japanese person showing up at an American show in Florida. We're just that just gets passed. Like, I don't know that anybody even gives a shit. And I don't think that's a good look. Yeah, that's why I kind of wonder if
01:31:52
Speaker
if the plan is something regarding LIJ or if it's just going to be to set up something different like I don't know again to go back to faxes favorite hobby horse what if let's say tanahashi takes the belt and then a bushy turns on him and a bushy beats tanahashi for the title but tanahashi be the evil is just
01:32:13
Speaker
a match that happens that comes out of something from the G1 or something like that. You know, that's not really a particularly like angle heavy match. And looking at Naito, a guy getting his big Wrestle Kingdom title win two years later than he should have would put Ibushi
Controversial Booking Decisions
01:32:33
Speaker
winning the title at Wrestle Kingdom next year right on schedule.
01:32:43
Speaker
I think that LIJ has the most to work with story-wise right now. To me, that's the way to go. I don't know Gita well enough to know what he's going to do. Honestly, though, I just kind of roll my eyes at the idea of anything with Okada and Ta-Nehisi right now because the matches might be great.
01:33:04
Speaker
But I feel like we've seen this, haven't we? Like, are we are we really at this point going to come out of the pandemic and we're just going to go back to the same old shit? Yeah, but I feel like saying that about Okada in particular feels very much like them trying to say Flair's done way before it was like I could watch Okada as champion forever.
01:33:30
Speaker
Like he is, I would say my personal opinion is if he's not the greatest wrestler of all time, he is currently the best wrestler on Earth and has been for the last several years. And I'm confident he still will be for the next couple more barring major injury. So I could watch him wrestle, just go through all of the top top of the card. You drew Takahashi.
01:34:00
Speaker
Sure, but I mean no and I'm still excited for that. I'm excited for any Okada match Okada. It'll crack four stars watch somehow it will
01:34:10
Speaker
But I think to Derek's point, though, I do think there's something to be said about taking some time and letting Okada not be the champion or in the championship hunt. In some ways, I think it makes some of the matches with some of the guys who were not the other top guys better because, for example, he wrestled Tai Chi right at New Beginning. And I think that match had some more drama because, look, there's
01:34:32
Speaker
Again, as much as I love Tai Chi, I don't think there's any way he's winning the IWGP title. And so when, if Okada's defending the title against Tai Chi, it's a foregone conclusion. In a match where neither of them is champion, hey, maybe there's a chance Tai Chi's taking this match. And so I don't want to say that he's done like Flair, like Jim Hurd tried to say Flair was done, but I think there's something to be said about keeping Okada away from that big match for a little bit to then come back to that, you know, sometime next year.
01:35:04
Speaker
Yeah, you know, again, as much as I'm shooting on Guido a little bit here, you know, again, his track record is that he always gets where you need to be. And there's reason that we say trust in Guido. And everything tends to work out in a long view, which you can't say for other bookers. So.
01:35:24
Speaker
But that is interesting about that finish of Dominion, which is that, ultimately, the two opinions online seem to be either, I hated that, or I trust Guido. I've seen literally a single person go, I'm so excited to see Evil as champion. Well, now I am a little bit after talking to you guys. I think there's some potential interesting stuff there. I'm on the trust side of like, they're going somewhere.
01:35:51
Speaker
Maybe it'll be good. By the way, was there anyone that thought when fake bougie came out in that match and you could tell his arms were too big. It was it was it wasn't bougie. Right. And was there anyone else or was I the only one that thought maybe that's Jericho even during a pandemic. Maybe it's Jericho somehow.
01:36:16
Speaker
If anyone could do it, he has his own private jet. It costs him tens of thousands of dollars of his own personal expenses. But he just loves a good gimmick that much. Well, putting Jericho in Bullet Club seems like a better way to save it than evil. Yeah, yeah.
01:36:39
Speaker
Well, guys, is there a way you want to put a bow on this new Japan discussion that we're having? Well, I'll say this is that one thing I'm looking forward to is that at some point they're going to split these titles up, right? They're not going to just keep being forevermore two titles. So on the plus side, that means we get to see evil lose titles twice.
01:37:02
Speaker
And honestly, I could see, especially the way they worded it, I could see Hiromu getting the IC title if he only puts the IC title. I could see him losing the IC title, because again, why keep them together?
01:37:16
Speaker
How many years ago, this was during the Attitude Era, didn't they do once in WWF, they did a triple threat with Jericho Beno on Angle? The Eurocontinental. Yes. And they split them up by having the first pinfall and a triple threat determine the Intercontinental, and the second one determined the European. That was a great fucking match. It was. They should do something like that, just all LIJ. Ooh.
01:37:42
Speaker
And then Booshi gets the six man title. It's Booshi and then two other guys that are clearly not Booshi and much older wearing Booshi masks. It's Monabu Nakanishi and Tenzan in Booshi masks.
01:38:04
Speaker
I will say, going back to what you said a moment ago, and I try to look at it like this, anytime pro wrestling throws me a curveball like they just did with putting evil on that spot, you at least have to acknowledge the fertile grounds for possibilities, because now you're in a world where you previously didn't think you would be as short as a week ago, right? So now you can just sit there and fantasy book things, and that's what's fun.
01:38:31
Speaker
Yeah, particularly when again, look, we don't know how long they're going to be short handed because of the pandemic. And so there's something to be said about, hey, we're making a new star. We're going to do different matches and surprising things starstruck over the course of the next six months.
01:38:48
Speaker
I think there's something admirable about that. I mean, I think there's something to be said about, look, we have to make the best of what we have. And so, you know, we don't have a lot of these guys to come in. We can't have Jericho or Mach just show up for a big match. So we're going to turn evil into someone you care about somehow. We're going to figure it out.
01:39:07
Speaker
Why don't we just end on something just universally fun,
Fantasy Matchups: AEW vs NJPW
01:39:12
Speaker
right? And Garrett kind of teed it up already. Why don't we each fantasy book one match if they were doing like Mania Weekend or for a big show, they did do one AEW versus New Japan match. Because I can't see a prolonged relationship happening anytime soon, but there's so much money to be had. I got to believe they'll do at least one supercard, whether it's in Tokyo or the United States at some point.
01:39:35
Speaker
So why don't we just do a little around the horn? Just everybody pick one match, and let's pretend that we're booking the four top matches of one of these. Chris, you want to start? Well, I'll steal kind of the obvious one, potentially. But I think Okada and Mox would be incredible. Those guys have in touch. They were a team during the new beginning tour for a little bit.
01:40:03
Speaker
I think that's the one that's sort of on the table that could be kind of incredible. Okada and to me, Okada is one of the most obvious guys to have a relationship with AEW. Obviously, he was at all in friendly with the Bucks. So there's something to me about, yeah, I want to see Okada come in for a big match in AEW. I don't want to see him come and do like 10 minute TV matches, but Okada and Mox,
01:40:27
Speaker
maybe after they maybe when they're not champion. So it's not champion versus champion. But then it's open ended. But who's going to win? I think that would be pretty incredible. I'll go ahead and say the match that we were supposed to get, but we didn't. And we hinted at it earlier. Orange Cassidy versus Suzuki. Yeah, that's that's a bummer. We didn't get that. That's that would be that would be delightful.
01:40:51
Speaker
the groan from everybody in pain. I'm just saying, y'all are sleeping on Darby Allen versus Ishii. That shit would get gross. Darby's definitely one of those guys who could fit into New Japan in sort of a weird way of getting hit really hard and just being like, yes.
01:41:16
Speaker
I was supposed to see Darby Allin versus Walter. Maybe a weekend one year, but Darby Allin got hurt.
01:41:25
Speaker
Oh, that would see that as a match. I want to see getting. OK, never mind. Just put Walter in New Japan. I mean, just how so let me say my match for is then I got to say, because you guys just left them for me, I'd say Tana Hashi and Ibushi versus Hangman and Omega. I mean, there's so many stories within stories within stories there.
01:41:47
Speaker
I don't see how that's not a winner, but seriously, just as we're talking about this, we could go hours of doing this, and how much money would you... I would pay, right now, $100 for that show, even if they told me I couldn't watch it on demand afterwards. There's almost no amount of money I can comprehend I wouldn't pay to see that show.
01:42:13
Speaker
So there's just got to be so much money behind it. They got to make it happen at least for one show at some point. What if you had to chug six Zemas and shit your pants to see that show? Would you do it? Done. I mean, I've done it for less.
01:42:29
Speaker
This is fun, guys. I would butt-chug six Zemas and watch that show. That's just like a Thursday night. For 11-year-old facts. That's right, man. No, I was 12 before we started getting into the shotgunning. Anyway, we should still keep these going. I know we've talked about AEW. We've now talked about New Japan. We've talked about cinematic wrestling.
01:42:59
Speaker
You know what we haven't talked about what's that GCW and I've got some shit I want to say about it Garrett's been bouncing wanting to talk about GCW for about a month I'm in But you know, I've just been watching a lot of just random indies on YouTube So if you're talking GCW, I want to talk about some other indie stuff that I've been watching I would love that
01:43:24
Speaker
Guys, I've been purchasing video cassettes during quarantine. VHS tapes. Do you want to hear about why I do that? Yeah, I kind of do and how your wife allows that. Yeah. Where do you find those yard sales during a pandemic? Yeah, you've been thrifting during quarantine. Do you have a VCR?
01:43:52
Speaker
Or is this just like a hipster thing that you just put them on your wall? That'd be really cool to admit right now.
01:44:01
Speaker
I'm going to leave those all as cliffhangers. Shit. So we kind of understand what next week's episode is going to be about. We're going to be going through and talking about what everyone's been watching and doing during pro wrestling quarantine. Fair to say. Yeah. And we're going to talk to some friends also because we want to hear from everyone's experience. Yeah. Four of us not enough.
Connect with the Hosts
01:44:26
Speaker
We promise we won't start the next episode talking about shitting. That's Derek promising that, not me. Garrett, not facts. I've never seen such a good shit in stories that we haven't heard. I am going out of my way to write a shit intro for next week's episode now. Now I'm doing it. I'll record it on myself. I'll send it all to Ken. My bad.
01:44:52
Speaker
Well, anyway, now that's a cliffhanger. Stay tuned next week to hear some shit stories and also what we've been doing during quarantine, our feelings about wrestling. We're going to be bringing on some guest stars. We got all kinds of crazy shit. Should we plug our social media before we get out of here? Sure, Chris, you know, our social media is you know, I don't.
01:45:12
Speaker
Kurt and underscore jerks on Twitter. I got that one. There you go. Garrett, we're at Wrestle Hangout on Twitter. We're at pre-determined podcast on Instagram. Anything? Yeah, no, I think we're good. TBTEW.com. Get every episode we've ever done. The Quarantine. Get our goddamn music.