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Finding Compassion & Anger for Family that Failed Us with Rachel Blackston and Vanessa Sadler
176 Plays8 months ago
With both gentleness and fire, Rachel and Vanessa share stories
from the homes they were raised in and reflect on how those homes molded them into the women they are today.
Together, they face down the barbed family dynamics of patriarchy, depression, loneliness, and longing with self-acceptance and care for one another. Along the journey, they also put language to ways they are learning to advocate for their worth and express holy anger for the harm they experienced as children. This tender conversation is filled with hope, beauty, and resilient joy. You won't want to miss it.
For more stories from brave, ordinary women, join us at Red Tent Living.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Season - Family Stories
00:00:01
Speaker
Hi, I'm Hailey Wiggers, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary. This season, we connect on stories of family. We're excited for you to join us. Welcome to our table.
'It Runs in the Family' - Personal Narratives
00:00:20
Speaker
In this episode, Rachel and Vanessa are exploring the theme it runs in the family.
00:00:25
Speaker
This episode was truly, it felt like sacred ground for me to listen in on. I found myself holding my breath in several parts and
00:00:40
Speaker
Honestly, wanting to just sit in the same room as both Vanessa and Rachel and ask them more questions and just be with them as they gave each other so much grace and explored with so much curiosity, even what it was like for them to share their stories.
00:00:59
Speaker
I will give you a heads up. There is an expositive used in the end of the episode. So if you have little ears, just be mindful of that as you listen to this episode. But I hope and I know that you'll enjoy it as much as I did. So enjoy the episode. It runs in the family. Hi Vanessa. Hi Rachel.
First Face-to-Face Connection and Mutual Admiration
00:01:21
Speaker
It's so good to be with you today. It's so good to be with you as well. I'm trying to think if we've officially seen each other
00:01:28
Speaker
face to face before. No, I don't think we have. I think this is the first go round. Oh, yeah. Well, what a pleasure. And I, yeah, I've just been blessed by your writing and your story through the years on Red Tent. And yeah, it's just it's fun to be in this space with you. Okay. Deep breath. Hey, thank you.
Mother's Routines and Gender Roles
00:01:55
Speaker
Scurrying through my apartment, fluffing throw pillows, and meticulously wiping down counters, I prepare for my parents' arrival. My roommate notices my hurried pace. You don't usually seem this anxious when you're hosting. What would it be like for you if your parents saw the mess this place was last night? My mind flashes from my college apartment back to my mom, preparing our house for my father's arrival from work.
00:02:20
Speaker
Around 5.15 every evening, she cleared backpacks and loose pieces of mail, throwing extraneous items into our junk drawer. Dinner was scheduled to be pulled out of the oven at precisely 5.30, carefully orchestrated with a garage door opening. Time to turn off the TV. Dad should be home soon. My mom says as she makes the final vacuum streaks on our rust-colored carpet, I regretfully shut off Nickelodeon and proceed to straighten the Baltimore Sun newspaper on the coffee table.
00:02:50
Speaker
Like making way for a king, we are just moments away from my father taking up his throne, a green and plaid easy chair in front of the evening news. I recently saw a social media post, an excerpt from a 1950s home economics book, explaining how to be a good wife. I was aghast and equally stunned by what my mother and grandmother were taught. The article instructed a woman on how to set the stage for her husband's arrival home from work, including having a hot meal ready
00:03:20
Speaker
cleaning up the children's faces and preparing a comfortable, noise-free zone for him to rest in. The article even suggested giving him a foot massage as you hear about his stressful encounters at work, without any complaint about your own day. My blood was boiling at this point, then I made it even hotter by reading the comments.
00:03:41
Speaker
One woman says, I think this is cute. I still try to do this for my husband each night. And another man tagging his wife saying, so this will be important for you as I return back to work. While most likely the man's comments were tongue in cheek, the reality is that this type of chauvinistic thinking is violent and both sets the stage for and perpetrates abusive behavior. As I saw this post amidst my surge of anger, I felt compassion for my mother's nervous system.
00:04:10
Speaker
I have very few moments and memories of her sitting down to rest. She was trained that the value of her life was in direct proportion to her ability to prop up my father and orient around his needs and desires. This patriarchal view is deeply ingrained in my family line. At one level, I've come a long way. My husband and I have co-owned a business for the last 13 years.
00:04:35
Speaker
When I returned to work after giving birth to our first daughter, he did everything from skin to skin contact, changing diapers to taking her to story time at the public library. However, I still find ways that this patriarchal mindset shows up. My husband can often give a quick and decisive no on topics like whether our sixth grader should get a cell phone or what our children should wear to church.
00:04:58
Speaker
When this happens, I have to take a deep breath and remember that I have equal say in these decisions, even though I have this sort of knee jerk reaction to comply with this opinion. Last month, my husband asked me about my desire for the last week of Christmas break. I felt panic at the question, trying to name my desires and untangle them from what I know he and my children would want.
00:05:23
Speaker
I'm embarrassed to admit that sometimes it feels like my only desire is for them to be well and okay. As a counselor for almost 20 years, my words ring my own alarm bells of codependency, and yet this still emerges inside of me.
Challenging Patriarchal Patterns
00:05:38
Speaker
John Bradshaw says that any time there has been violence or chaos in a child's home, the child begins to live in their external world as an adaptive strategy, simultaneously stunting the growth of their internal world.
00:05:51
Speaker
During the last decade, I have found ways to cultivate my internal world of desires and pay attention to my body. However, this process still feels slow and tenuous. I feel defensive over things that may have culturally and historically defined my success as a woman, but actually have very little bearing on my feminine identity, like the mounting piles of laundry in my home, my lack of interest in cooking, my inability to make anything on Pinterest look like the actual picture.
00:06:19
Speaker
In Christian circles, I've been affirmed for my sensitivity and kindness. While I bless these parts of myself, I am also obstinate, opinionated, raw, and direct, and carry a wisdom and a grit that leads and is important to charting the course for my family and business. I found that men are less threatened by the nurturing parts of me since these more confrontational parts can stay hidden at times. I long for these parts to be more seen and easily expressed.
00:06:46
Speaker
My goal is to welcome each and all aspects of how God has made me and not just mute the ones that threaten or disrupt. This radical self-acceptance, refusing to judge or dismiss any part of who I am is a lifelong journey of coming home to how God has made me and breaking free from these male-dominated structures. Our daughters approach the world with grittiness and have little fear in using their voices. Recently, my daughter confronted me when I was trying to put a positive spin on something she was experiencing.
00:07:16
Speaker
I was doing this to soothe my own discomfort rather than tending to her emotions. She suggested that I was acting like my mother. She was exactly right. I'm grateful for her eyes to see me and her voice to call out. Seeing my daughters use their voices to speak truth that often disrupts encourages me to live from my strength and helps me to see generational patterns of misogyny that have been threaded in my family and allow it to loosen its grip.
00:07:42
Speaker
Hmm. Thank you, Rachel. What are you aware of as you take that breath after finishing?
Finding Voice and Empowerment
00:07:53
Speaker
I mean, I do feel like there's some shame, you know, there's some places that it's really hard to admit that I think even the line of like,
00:08:03
Speaker
Even when my husband makes this kind of decisive decision about what our children should wear to church that like it actually takes me a moment like my initial reaction can be okay, you know, and try to kind of comply with that and so
00:08:20
Speaker
It's just, I think it's just wild even after many years of work in my story that these parts still come out. Yeah, I was really struck by the kind of the transformational, you give such a beautiful view of humanity for your husband actually throughout.
00:08:42
Speaker
throughout what you what you talk about in your in your story and you know obviously we're talking about what runs in your family but you do talk about the ways that your husband has had skin-to-skin contact and has been involved with your with your daughters but I'm curious for you you know in those moments when
00:09:06
Speaker
you have to take a breath and remember that you have equal say. What has that looked like and felt like to find your unique space as having, your unique voice as having equal weight? Yeah, thank you. It feels really empowering. I mean, it feels like I'm fighting for something through a lot of really kind of thick,
00:09:36
Speaker
just almost like I'm, I'm kind of like trying to find, like pop out of like a vat of mud, you know what I mean? And just the sense of like, it's so heavy, just this line, but that when I do come up, you know, just kind of my voice feels so good to me, feels so good to me. And it feels so good to use it on behalf of my daughters. Like, okay, they can wear shorts to church. Like I'm really okay with it. We live in Florida, you know, and they don't like dresses.
00:10:06
Speaker
So, you know, I think there's just these places where it feels so right. And so there is some hope. I mean, it's really sweet to hear you say that, like, there's something that does feel really embodied about it when I can get in touch with my voice, but it's not always natural.
Inherited Traits and Childhood Memories
00:10:24
Speaker
And it actually felt really good. I mean, for my daughter to expose me to, I mean, she literally looked at me and she goes,
00:10:32
Speaker
You're acting like grandma. I mean, she sees it in my mother. She sees it in me. And she just had the freedom to just speak that right into me. And I'm like, you are so right. I mean, just that actually felt really good, too. Mm hmm. Yeah, you are smiling and laughing. I think it takes a level of humility to take to take it in because there is other parts where you feel really defensive.
00:11:00
Speaker
that you said like you're worth being measured by piles of laundry. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for seeing that. I know there's there are places in me that still feel like I have to prove my feminine identity. And then there's other places where it does. It feels it just feels good. Yeah. Thank you for seeing that.
00:11:24
Speaker
When you talk about the embodied experience, it's the first thing that I noticed at the very beginning of your story is this kind of frenzied energy with which you're cleaning the house and your roommate calls you out on it first. She totally did. And I remember the shock.
00:11:49
Speaker
because I didn't, it was so ingrained for me to scurry and for me to just like, I have to get this perfect for them to come in and to believe in my independence, to believe that I'm doing well. And for her to actually lay out, it's your parents, they could see that
00:12:16
Speaker
You know, we've had laundry thrown all over this place, you know, last night. It was like, Oh yeah. And it just, that kind of led me to feeling my mom's nervous system. Like, Oh wow. Like,
00:12:29
Speaker
This is runs in the family. You know, like I remember seeing her like before my dad was about to get home from work, but other times too, like having people over for entertaining or Thanksgiving dinner. Like there was just the sense like she had to hustle so much. And I was feeling that like I am hustling here. Well, thank you for.
00:12:50
Speaker
Thank you for bringing what I know is something that a lot of women, particularly who've grown up in Christian circles can really connect with in that patriarchal world. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yes. Yes, for sure. Well, do you feel ready?
00:13:19
Speaker
Just how are you feeling even going into? Yeah. I'm feeling OK. I'm feeling good. I have recently recorded another podcast about my family, so it felt like very timely to do this one, too. Yeah. Yeah. So it didn't feel very it didn't feel very far from me. It felt kind of close. OK. Yeah.
00:13:46
Speaker
There are qualities I know I inherited from the matriarchal line of my family. Consistently being on time, likely early if I'm fully honest, arriving prepared whether that means I've had my morning coffee, packed appropriate snacks, or have the materials to take notes on and with because you better believe there will be copious note taking.
00:14:10
Speaker
Their attributes aren't positive. I inherited from my dad's side of the family tree as well. A fascination with what makes people do what they do. My dad from a sociological perspective and me from a psychological one. A lead foot that leaves me increasingly annoyed with anyone driving appropriately at or just under the speed limit.
00:14:31
Speaker
and an insatiable love of learning. Then there are the traits that lurk in the shadows, the ones I don't want to acknowledge exist at all, for fear that they will emerge fully from the depths and lay claim on me, the ones that remind me how alone I felt as a kid. So here's my story.
00:14:52
Speaker
The dark gray haze of dusk settled low as I approached the canopy of trees and followed the curve of the sidewalk, feeling one with the bicycle I was mounted on. The rush of leaning into a curve was exhilarating. Lean too far in and the outside of my leg would pay the price with concrete scars. Choose not to lean in and miss out on the cool evening breeze pressing against my cheeks.
00:15:17
Speaker
and the rise of adrenaline in my stomach that matched the rapid thumping in my chest. Definitely worth the risk. As I cleared the loop at the end of my street, I rose and accelerated the pedals. It was time to head for home after a day of playing with friends, pushing the limits on the boundaries our parents set in the neighborhood. One time a friend and I made it all the way down to the 7-11 without our parents finding out. Stolen bubble tape never tasted so good.
00:15:48
Speaker
I parked my bike in the garage and walked around the side of the building are two bedroom townhomes shared with four other units. Kid cuisine or ramen noodles, I wondered as I opened the front door greeted by the familiar silence.
00:16:02
Speaker
I could see the living room and dining rooms and half of the kitchen from where I stood and quickly assessed that she was not downstairs. My nine-year-old stomach growled as I started up the stairs, thirteen in all, also covered in dark brown carpet. I was used to being welcomed home by silence, but this was eerily quiet, I thought, as I crested the top of the stairs.
00:16:26
Speaker
I passed my room and for the 100th time wondered why my carpet was green, that pistachios, that 70s pistachio green. I was too hungry to think about it for very long. From the doorway of mom's bedroom, I saw the fading evening sun beaming through a crack and the burts in the burlap curtains that hung in her room.
00:16:47
Speaker
They let in just enough light to catch a line of dust particles floating in the air across the room. The stream of sunshine was only light. Is it possible to feel darkness? I wondered.
00:17:00
Speaker
The darkness in Mom's room always felt heavy, like the lead vest I had to put on when the doctor took an x-ray on my broken foot last year. I walked slowly into the room toward Mom's bed. She was curled up under a mountain of blankets, facing away from the window, away from the sunlight.
00:17:17
Speaker
She sniffled, and I knew she'd been crying. Her nose always dripped when she cried, and I despised her runny nose. Walking over to the side of the bed, I wondered if I should say anything to the back of her head. My belly gurgled again, announcing my presence, and she shifted, sighed, but didn't roll over toward me. I didn't say anything. The silence grew louder and louder, the darkness heavier and heavier, deafening silence, crushing darkness.
00:17:46
Speaker
I don't remember how long I watched the dust particles float across the sunbeam in the middle of the room. But as I patted back down the dark brown stairs, I thought, I think I'll try the soy flavor of ramen noodles tonight instead of the chicken as I headed into the kitchen to boil a pot of water. Thank you. Thank you. How are you doing? Kind of what do you notice as you read it through?
The Presence of Depression
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think I notice how young I feel again, like just how young you feel. I just feel really young reading it. I'm always struck too by how much younger I feel than I actually was. I think I was probably around nine in the story, but I always feel about six.
00:18:43
Speaker
when I read it, which I find really interesting. Yeah, I think just that knowing knowing that like I have always felt my mom's depression. I have I have always this is something that I lived with my whole life. This was always like the third, the third party. I've always been really curious about like
00:19:12
Speaker
triangulation and things like that when there's not a third parent because I have a single parent home. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, we can triangulate with depression. Oh, that's a thing. Oh, wow. Yeah. I think I am. I mean, I just I felt so much when you were reading the story and particularly kind of just the life
00:19:40
Speaker
that in the time riding your bike, I mean, just this little, just this young risk taker of a stolen bubble tape. I mean, it's just such a, it's such a delightful, like I get such a picture of who you are in that, in those, like in just the.
00:20:00
Speaker
I love that sentence pushing the limits of boundaries that our parents that, you know, stolen bubble tape never tasted so good. I mean, things like it is so, there's so much like life and risk and, um, just this desire for light that sets up. I mean, it, it, it's like, it takes my breath away. The contrast, like when you arrive home, I mean, just of this, this kind of world that you're in, where you get to explore freely.
00:20:29
Speaker
Yeah, it is. It is. I thank you for that phrase, too, like it takes my breath away. That is kind of what it felt like. You walk in and it was like like you could feel the life just leave like it was just kind of sucking like a like a just sucked the life out of. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:48
Speaker
Even the counting of the steps, because what it occurred to me, I'm like, oh, you don't seem like a little girl that would know the exact number of steps because you're pushing the limit on your bike, the bubble tape. And so I was like, oh, something big just shifted. You know how many steps. You notice your hunger all of a sudden.
00:21:12
Speaker
I mean, it's so profound, like what happens to your body and just that arrival home. Yeah. Yeah. Bubble tape is the only thing I ever stole.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, that one roll, that one roll of bubble tape. But we did and we did push limits. I think about, you know, I'm I am a rule follower as long as the rules are like make sense. If they don't, then I think they're stupid, then I'll break them. Yeah. And I felt like there's a sidewalk outside of the neighborhood so we can ride our bikes on the sidewalk. And so.
00:21:53
Speaker
or like don't cross the street so we would go under the street like there was a culvert so we would go under the street and there was like that there that felt like life where there was so much what felt like a lack of life and I struggled to even use the word death like there wasn't because I don't
00:22:19
Speaker
I don't know to what extent my mom struggled with any kind of ideations. But there is even a theme in some of my other stories around being able to see cracks of light through doorways and the light and the darkness. And that theme is throughout. I could feel the difference walking over the threshold of the home.
00:22:49
Speaker
Oh, yes. And then when you see the light come through the curtains, it feels like that moment is even just this desire. There's just so much in you that's searching for light. Even trying to figure out
00:23:13
Speaker
the hope of what flavor of ramen, you know, I mean, just there's something in you that's just like looking for it. I was, I mean, I felt like I could weep over the line when you get to the bed and you see your mom and you're feeling your hunger and you say, you know, my belly gurgled announcing my presence and she shifted side, but didn't roll towards me. I,
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, just wondering like kind of even as I read that line back to you.
00:23:49
Speaker
Yeah, I'm holding actually I'm holding that line with what you just said about ramen noodles or kid cuisine because even though I was looking forward to what I would have, I think there's probably something that always knew I was going to be the one to make it. Like I wasn't surprised or right. Yeah. Like stunned by that.
00:24:18
Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's I I think that I still have a hard time accessing even sadness. Mm hmm. I think the loneliness is what I feel more than. Yeah. Thanks for saying that. And even like that helps to give me a picture when you say you kind of knew like when you arrived at the house, you kind of knew. Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:24:47
Speaker
Vanessa, I just so appreciate you sharing about the anger. I mean, just that feels so important. And I think as you, as you shared, I was like, Oh, of course you wouldn't be able to get in touch with the sadness because you would need some kind of, kind of compassionate witness in the story to be able for the, for the nine year old,
00:25:13
Speaker
to even access her sadness, that you didn't have that. And so, yeah, for the door in to be the loneliness and then the anger of like, oh, like there could have been so much more. And I just, yeah, I really appreciate you sharing about that. Yeah.
00:25:38
Speaker
It's a, I think it's a scary piece because anger can, can be so destructive if, or when it's like not held, um, or given a really good container, right? Yeah.
00:25:57
Speaker
But I think I heard a dear mentor and colleague say recently that that they couldn't access love and forgiveness for their parent until they were able to admit that they hated their parent.
Acknowledging Anger for Healing
00:26:21
Speaker
Wow. Wow. And that that has really just struck me.
00:26:27
Speaker
And that has just been staying with me. I think if I can honestly get to a point where I'm like, that wasn't like.
00:26:38
Speaker
Maybe not hatred. I can't say that yet. But I'm like, I'm getting more to the anger pieces of like, what the fuck? Yeah, that's so good. Put an explicit on this one. But yeah, so good. Yeah. Get out of the bed. Get out of the bed. Right. Yeah. Yes. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I feel that like turn your body around. Yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing that piece because I think that like relates to kind of my story as well, you know, like that there is. Like until I face like I hated watching my mom lay her life down on behalf of my father and the way that I felt so unimportant because of that, you know, then
00:27:39
Speaker
out of that, I think some of the compassion for the bind she would then can come, you know, and I think, so yeah, that's what's really helpful. Yeah, that makes so much sense too because it, like as you're saying that I'm just thinking it spoke, it probably spoke in an unspoken way so much to your worth as a woman.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm curious as we sort of turn in this moment toward reflection, what are you thinking that you'll carry from this time into this week? Yeah, thank you. I mean, it's really neat to think about kind of as I see your story, you know, I can think about
00:28:37
Speaker
that like advocating for the worth of that girl and advocating, you know, and allowing your anger to have space and room and the expletives to fly of just like, mom, get out of the bed. It brings a sense of like, yes, the girl coming alive to her worth. And so I think it kind of encouraged my
00:29:07
Speaker
encourages me in my own holy anger, you know, that this is more, you know, this is bigger than just whether or not I can enter into a conversation about whether my daughter gets a cell phone. And, you know, I mean, it does. It's like, oh, I'm fighting for her. I'm fighting for
00:29:27
Speaker
for the sense that my life got put to the side and my mom's life got put to the side just because my dad's gender arrived home to the house. So I think it's like your story. I feel very embodied in that moment, but it's your story that has helped me.
00:29:46
Speaker
So thank you. I have chills just thinking about the implications of that for for you and for your girls and for the lives that you touch. Yeah. Thank you. What about you, Vanessa? Like, what do you take from this time?
00:30:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think what I will be taking from this time is to not forget about how much life there is there, to not forget about the ways that I...
Embracing Vivacity and Identity
00:30:26
Speaker
I'm oriented toward life, like I have some tears even just thinking about it, like how much I don't make room intentionally for the parts of me that feel most alive. I can get really bogged down with all the things that I have to do. And she is, she is very, very vivacious. She is, she is.
00:30:55
Speaker
She leapt. I mean, she leapt out on this story. She did. Yeah. Vibacious is like the perfect word. Yes. Yeah. I might go get a bike.
00:31:10
Speaker
I love it. I love it. It's been a long time since I've had one basket, put some bubble tape in the front. Yes. Yeah, that's awesome. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, such a rich time, Vanessa. Thank you so much. Such a treat and a treasure to to be with you. Thank you for holding that so well. Absolutely.
00:31:34
Speaker
Maybe, like me, you're feeling a host of things after coming off of that conversation. Gratitude is one of them. Thank you, Vanessa and Rachel, for your honesty, for your just words, the way that you crafted pictures in our heads of what was going on in those moments that you portrayed. I
00:32:02
Speaker
I'm noticing a couple of things that I am hoping to walk away with that I would invite you into and to consider as well. After hearing Rachel share her story, as they were talking, I wrote down this line that Rachel said. She said, my voice feels so good to me and it feels so good to use it.
00:32:26
Speaker
wow, what a packed statement for her to talk about noticing and her ongoing work of noticing what her voice, what her identity is, who she is, and what that looks like to live that out, to own that, and to undo some of the narratives in her past and in her life that have been
00:32:52
Speaker
learned because of misogyny and patriarchy and to sort of untangle those. I love that she said that. I love that she said her voice feels good to her and good to use it as she's beginning to learn how to integrate all of these parts of herself and let them show up and let them be seen and let them be expressed.
00:33:19
Speaker
I'm curious for you as listeners what it feels like for you to listen to the sound of your own voice. How does that feel for you to use your voice? Do you get opportunities to do that? What would it look like for you to notice and to lean in to your own voice and your own wisdom?
00:33:46
Speaker
And then Vanessa's story, kind of like Rachel and Vanessa talked about in their conversation, I felt myself holding my breath. I felt my body was tense as I listened, but I loved what they talked about, the contrast of life versus a lack of life and a light versus darkness. And I felt like,
00:34:17
Speaker
Vanessa portrayed that contrast so well in her story. And at the end, she talked about trying to remember the things that make her feel alive and saying, joking, I hope she did this, but joking that she was going to get a bike.
Encouragement to Find Aliveness
00:34:41
Speaker
So I would ask you, what leads you to feel alive?
00:34:47
Speaker
what things or people or experiences or sensations or moments allow you to feel truly alive. I am going to sit with that for a while and I hope that you feel invited to consider that for yourself.
00:35:08
Speaker
The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by Katie Stafford and edited by Aaron Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson and our guests are all part of the Red Tent Living community. You can find us all at redtentliving.com as well as on Facebook and Instagram. If you love the stories shared here, we would be thrilled if you left us a review. Until next week, love to you, dear ones.