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Thriving Where You Are with Tracy Johnson and Katy Stafford
93 Plays20 days ago
Take a scroll down Instagram and it doesn't take long to find yourself battling feelings of envy or doubt-Am I living the life I could be? Am I as happy and successful as I should be? This week, Tracy and Katy consider what it means to grow present to your real, beautiful ordinary by taking a candid look at their own. Tune in to a heartfelt conversation that turns from the everyday mundane to more vulnerable moments of suffering and change as Tracy and Katy consider what thriving really means.
For more stories from brave, ordinary women, join us at Red Tent Living.
Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary. Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives. We're excited for you to join us. Welcome to our table. Morning. Morning. Hello.
00:00:31
Speaker
How's it going? Good. Happy Saturday. Yeah, ah happy Saturday to you. We're recording this on the last Saturday of summer for all intents and purposes. For all intents and purposes. As I was sitting this morning, I was thinking about I have, I have friends that live on either coast. And so on the two extremes, school isn't started yet. So i'm here in the middle of the US, it's like where we are here and where you and I were just a week ago in Phoenix, school school is well underway. But anyways, I was on a call with all of those friends this week, women.
00:01:12
Speaker
And they were, it was so funny, we were in a Zoom call um and they were all coming in from their cars because to to use their words, they're all sucking out the last marrow of summer. And so, yeah, so they were, you know, in transit with families from the end of vacation and some of them naming like, and one more camping trip this weekend.
00:01:38
Speaker
So yep. Yeah, here. I mean, Erin and I were just talking last night about ah how in Michigan it feels like Labor Day. It's just even though like school has sort of drifted earlier and earlier in Michigan. So there were kids that went back the week before Labor Day. It's still this sort of sacred final get out on the water yeah's here because it gets so bleak and so cold. And like, I mean,
00:02:08
Speaker
everybody does a barbecue or whatever on Labor Day, but I feel like they're in those like more severe climates. There can be this sort of like last hurrah that makes it feel a little bit more, I don't know, like celebratory and big. Oh, I can remember that when we lived in Michigan, whether we were in the Starks pool or, or we were at Mary Jane and John's and out on the lake. but It was very much that like,
00:02:35
Speaker
This is your last opportunity and we would all hope that the weather was good and it didn't turn cold and rainy for Labor Day Week. Exactly. Well, we're talking about today a number of things, but kind of our theme that is drawing us together is this idea of like, sometimes life looks different than you expect. And what does it mean to thrive where you are? Or what does it mean to be kind to yourself when you're not thriving? Like those kinds of questions when it's like,
00:03:08
Speaker
you You took a turn down the road. Life took a turn down the road that you weren't expecting necessarily. And how are you holding that? I feel like there are so many places that we could go.
00:03:21
Speaker
um in inside of that prompt and and I you know I found myself also just like yesterday day before today as I've been thinking about our conversation the the thriving but word like thriving where you are you know even when the season is sort of unexpected and I and I found myself you know wanting probably to push on it just a little bit like what What does it even mean to thrive? yeah um Because i I think that you know we can um we can certainly get caught up
00:04:04
Speaker
and some idea about you know what we think thriving looks like. And so if thriving looks like what I see on Instagram when I pop in there you know to check and and find out you know what's going on in the world around me and what are my friends doing, it can be really easy to look at these curated moments and think, oh, that must be what it would be to thrive right now.
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah. um and And I think that increases then the pressure like, oh, I need to be somewhere that I'm not. i need to I need to be able to say something about my life right now or I need to be able to push something out there um or or sort of this like collapse inward of of I must be failing. who um You know, everybody else has something that I don't have. And so,
00:05:02
Speaker
I don't know that that's where we're going to go as far as like trying to define what it is to thrive. But it feels important to me to name that I i think thriving where you are right now it is yeah at some level, it's really about can you can you be where you are right now? Can you can you to use ah what's becoming sort of a tired phrase? like Can you be present where you are right now?
00:05:32
Speaker
And it makes me think about, and I think you were here, Katie. I think you you may have been with us. It was years ago. I remember there was a ah Sunday morning at Morris Hill Church. Kent Dobson was actually the one who was preaching on this particular Sunday.
00:05:49
Speaker
and ah and his and And this was kind of what he was talking about, but this was this was what I took away from me that Sunday morning, was this this phrase that he used again and again. I am here, and you are here, and we are here together.
00:06:07
Speaker
then And he sort of gave us this invitation to consider using those so phrases and thinking about what it meant to be here with with God. I am here. You are here. We are here together.
00:06:27
Speaker
and um And i I think that has a place in our conversation today about thriving and where you are. Like just how do we do that? What does that look like? I'm i'm excited for that. it It feels like this dovetails a little bit with the space I was sitting in thinking about thriving. I've always, I have a doer energy. I i get a lot of, um
00:06:59
Speaker
purpose from accomplishment, like reaching, i reaching a goal, those kinds of things. Like I derive a lot of value from that. And so as you're talking about the being in reality, a lot of where I was as I was writing this is, you know, life is pretty good, right? it Life is good. Life is sweet right now for me. And I don't have the next thing that I'm striving for and so that can create a bit of a doubt inside of me like ah am I am I using my time to the fullest is this what the best life is you know like this I'm not working towards something.
00:07:48
Speaker
like, can I can I enjoy what is there's a when when we start to just be and inhabit our date today? I don't know if you're like this, but I start to notice patterns, and there's beauty to those. And then there's also the tension of like sometimes it's like and I'm scrubbing this exact same cutting board again like and this will be my life forever right where you're like you're doing the cleaning you're doing the cooking you're doing the the things that have to get done you're doing the bills you're and it's just like oh my gosh is this it um and there's nothing wrong with that um but how to once again like inhabit and be with the the people around me and in the world that I'm in
00:08:35
Speaker
and savor it. i think I think I don't necessarily always know how to do that. And I think there's a lot of us that don't necessarily know how to just rest and lean into our days.
00:08:49
Speaker
yeah i um Certainly, when I was in my 20s and still into my 30s, that energy that you just described, felt I can remember that like very palpably inside of me. and and and Probably, but in my life at that point, it was very full of small children.
00:09:19
Speaker
and Uh, and so yeah, sort of that, like the, the ordinary and the drudgery and the, even then kind of looking around like, should I be doing something different? Is this all there? Like, am I reaching my potential and that temptation to, to live in sort of the, the what's next, you know, when I get here, when all of, when all three of my kids at that point, there were only three of you, when all three of my kids are in school.
00:09:51
Speaker
when everybody can tie their own shoes, when ah when you are old enough to start babysitting and I can leave you with the others. just like And all of it somehow it tied to this i think idea for me that that there was some kind of freedom or some kind of purpose that that I was meant to live into that was outside of my ordinary.
00:10:19
Speaker
um and And I think part of it for me was was pushing against what what I had grown up with, which was this idea that like motherhood was the pinnacle.
00:10:35
Speaker
like That's the best job in the world, the most important job in the world. like and And not that it's not. I'm not saying that. But but there was something inside of me that that very much was hungry for and new.
00:10:52
Speaker
like there's meant to be more to my life. And I think I'm hearing you say that too for different reasons, but just kind of this gnawing sense of like, think i'm I think there's something more and I don't wanna miss it or I'm aware there's more and I need to i need to get there. Yeah, yeah. that That's definitely the, I think the tension of my days day to day.
00:11:20
Speaker
And I think there's a shadow side to that and there's a goodness to that. And maybe that's part of what we talk about too. like the Not missing where you're at, not being so driven that it's like you can't even be attuned to what's actually happening around you. Because that's like that's another way that... If you're not present, all right are you really living your life? If you're just jumping to the next thing, but simultaneously like feeling that hunger inside fur for something more can also be really life-generating.
00:11:56
Speaker
I read this piece that I wrote for I was I spoke at a conference this was like back in 2013 that I wrote this and i I found it as I was thinking about what I wanted to share today and it's funny because you and I you you had come You come for dinner or whatever it was when we were living in Kalamazoo and you and I had been downstairs. We were having some terribly important conversation, I'm sure. And your sisters were upstairs. I think you'd been over for about an hour or so. And the girls came out and they were calling. They wanted us to come upstairs. come upstairs, come upstairs, come upstairs. We're like, okay, we'll be there soon, we'll be there. And finally it was like, come now, will you please come upstairs? And so we went upstairs and in the hour that you and I had been talking, they had turned their room into a museum with art for sale. I don't know if you remember this.
00:12:59
Speaker
I, not specifically yet. Yeah. They were dressed like Parisian artists. They'd drawn little mustaches on and they had these little berets that they had like, you know, found in their closet and Libby had put a ribbon across the doorway and she had some scissors and she thought it like it was the grand opening and she announced it, you know, we walked in and in an hour,
00:13:25
Speaker
right they had used They had used their imaginations to create like this whole make-believe museum, um which felt so curious to me, like who who creates a make-believe museum? um I mean, it's funny now thinking about what an artist's libby is, but but they were so carefree and playful and imaginative, and we think we're doing something so important.
00:13:53
Speaker
right we're having the really important conversation. Yes. Yeah. Um, and they just want us to come, come be, come here, come see, come see this beautiful thing that we made. Yeah. Um, and, and that, that kind of like pops for me as, um,
00:14:20
Speaker
the the the evidence of of what's available um sort of puts things in perspective. but you know I'm sure we were talking about something terribly important, but... But we don't remember it. No. No, 11 years later, whatever you and I were talking about, even at the time, it didn't warrant more words in my reflection yeah than the simplicity of their creativity and play. so Yeah, urgency will always be there for you. if like Whether you're scrolling, like there is always something to be worried and rushed about. Or envious of. Right, if we're not cultivating a different way of being, we will just fall into that. Well, with that, should we jump into these stories? story yeah like You want to read your piece? Sure, sure.
00:15:19
Speaker
um dip i but but
00:15:24
Speaker
I dip my wooden spoon into the simmering sauce and breathe in the aromas of basil, oregano, and just a kiss of red wine as I hold the spoon to my lips and blow. I absolutely love making my mother's spaghetti sauce. With a sip of the spoon, I assess. The flavors are marrying together, but not quite perfect yet.
00:15:47
Speaker
I pull the spoon away, place a hand on my hip and ponder what's missing. We need just a touch more salt, I decide. the gentletling The gentle bubbling continues, and I turn to scrub the pile of prep dishes that has accumulated in the sink, knowing that if I don't do them now, it will be hard to motivate myself after dinner when the full work day and the comfort of warm food have wrapped me into the couch. And my husband suggests we watch a few episodes of Dairy Girls. With my wrists deep in soap suds, I scrub the same cutting board I scrubbed last night after chopping onions and peppers for enchiladas and peek up through the window.
00:16:26
Speaker
The sun is casting its golden glow across our backyard trees, already yellowing thanks to the first whispers of fall. Aaron is chipping a golf ball around the backyard, using the rhythm of his swing to release the stress of his day. I smile and attempt to do the same with my scrubbing. These are my evenings. Familiar, savored, predictable.
00:16:51
Speaker
It's typically here in my pre-dinner routine that my mind has room to wander and to wonder. The first emotion on evenings like this is often gratitude. I notice our dog loyally sitting near the stovetop, hoping that if he is very, very still and very, very quiet, he will be rewarded with a very, very small crumble of Italian sausage.
00:17:14
Speaker
My smile grows a little bigger as I reach for the crumble and drop it to the floor. This is a sweet life. And yet with conversations from my work day playing out in my mind and sometimes a bit of self-doubt creeping in as I reflect on the calls that I made that day, I feel a series of other emotions as well.
00:17:35
Speaker
tiredness, worry, skepticism about the purpose of all of this and if I'm spending my effort in the right ways. From where I stand, between the simmering spaghetti sauce and the shaggy black dog still licking his lips from the crumble of sausage, there's no good reason to overthink any of the emotions I feel.
00:17:54
Speaker
and with a calendar stuck on the fridge that has brunch dates and birthday hangouts marked in the coming weeks with friends. It's clear this life is full and worth enjoying. But even so, I sometimes pile the clean dishes on the towel near the sink and find myself asking, what are the stakes? Or where am I going?
00:18:19
Speaker
because marking the minutes that pass from enchiladas to spaghetti with dairy girls and office days does start to get repetitive, does sometimes start to wear you down. ri Recollecting the last 35 years, the season when life still stands out in my memory with vibrant technicolor richness has always included two things.
00:18:43
Speaker
Risk for something I desperately wanted and hope for what might be possible, even amidst uncertainty. And that I think is what I'm missing a bit of right now. Risk and the hope that comes with it. The landscape for risk has changed in my life. I'm not 23 and seeking a sense of vocation or 27 yearning for a romantic relationship.
00:19:10
Speaker
nor am I nearing the end of graduate school and considering a move to a new place with new adventures. I have friendships and community I have cultivated, and I don't want risk to just mean leaving what you love. But I am craving new stakes in life. I do want to live a little larger and with less knowns and repetition.
00:19:36
Speaker
and I'd like to take those risks with friends who are eager to do the same. I just don't quite know what that looks like then, what I'm looking. Turning back to the stove, the sauce has darkened in cover. The sauce has darkened in color, leveraging heat and time to continue becoming. I dip my spoon back in and raise it to my lips for a taste. Perfect, I whisper. Hmm.
00:20:08
Speaker
oh You've said a lot of things. I did. You did. What did you hear? um The first thing I noticed, Katie, is that you your gift for sinking all the way down into a particular moment um and then and then and feeling it and articulating it and like marinating in it and and and then And then it it bubbles up into like a reflection like this, because it's beautiful. um i I wrote some words down that stood out to me. ah you know you said You know, your evening's familiar, savored, predictable.
00:21:00
Speaker
um Familiar and predictable sort of, ah you know, creating this containment around savored, almost as if the familiarity and the predictability is is what allows the moments to be savored. Or maybe it's that you choose for those moments to be savored. And it feels very savory, right, as you're standing at the at the stove and I think that's what I noticed is that that that word stands out to me and it and it doesn't feel like a word that was haphazardly chosen. Everything about what's happening at the stove is savory. yeah
00:21:46
Speaker
I think in this post what emerged and what is true in my day is it's like savoring is a choice because making spaghetti on a Wednesday night is a choice, right? like And there have been tired days where it's like, we're ordering Jet's pizza. like That's what's happening. And i do I do pick like,
00:22:16
Speaker
recipes recipes are so sacred because they carry like every time you've had that dish with them. When you taste it, it brings a lot of memory to it. That's part of why I like making your spaghetti so much. um I mean, it's one of Aaron's favorites, but I i know the origin story. like this is it This is a spaghetti that was born of friendship in Italy where you went on a trip and learned how to make it.
00:22:41
Speaker
And then we've made it at lots and lots of meals. And i I feel like I can, I stitch back to something divine and deep when I make good food. So i've I've lived a stressful day where it's like, did we even argue about the right things today at work? You know, like those kinds of things. And it's like, I am going to stitch back into something deeper.
00:23:05
Speaker
by making spaghetti which takes time and then as it's like unfolding I get to sit at that kitchen window which has really beautiful light and kind of look out in my yard and just like reground myself um I do think there's a kind of ritual to it oh I think it's filled with ritual yeah it's filled with ritual and a and In a recent conversation I was having with Heather Stringer about ritual, ah but she was talking about you know part of what ritual provides is containment and grounding.
00:23:46
Speaker
and ah And we need that. And I think that's what I like that you sinking all the way down, you know, I think sometimes we use these words like being present or being grounded or being, you know, whatever. And I'm, and I'm sure people are like, what are you even talking about?
00:24:04
Speaker
I would have been like that, you know, before I started living in a world where those words get thrown around pretty regularly. And so the the the chopping of the vegetables, the noticing the smell, the tasting, you know, does does this taste quite right? ah Franklin at your feet and and handing, like giving him a little piece of sausage, like all all of that.
00:24:31
Speaker
and your awareness of it and your your choices there and not to just sort of move through those choices mindlessly but instead to actually make the choice to notice what am i doing yeah what am i doing you know what am i tasting what am i seeing out my window like all of your senses being what you choose to tune into instead of the noise about, do we even argue about the right things? like Because that's your brain still back at work. Right, right. And I am like trying to like pull myself into the moment. right like that I feel like that's what the
00:25:18
Speaker
activities of dinner do. Aaron's commented before he's like, we don't have to do something this lavish because I ever since COVID, I actually tend to cook a lot. And he's like, I'm okay if we just do what he loves the cooking, but I think he wants to create permission. He doesn't want me to feel like it's an expectation. And I realize it's a it's a practice for myself that Sometimes it's too much. Sometimes I don't want to do all of that cleaning and cooking and prep. But I turn to it because it feels like it can help bring me into the moment. there There's a quote from an Anglican priest. He hit the focus of his life was like the homeless people in England. His name's Kenneth Leach. And he said that there
00:26:11
Speaker
there has to be a movement towards the still center, the depths of our being, where according to the mystics we find the presence of God. And so if that's true, and I i believe that that's true, because otherwise I think it's like, why are you so focused on yourself? Like you're sinking down into this moment, it's all about you.
00:26:33
Speaker
But it's not. You know, it's actually not. God created us with these, with senses, right? And the even the idea taste and see.
00:26:46
Speaker
yeah that the Lord is good, right? Taste and see. And you can feel that, like in this savory moment that you have sunk down into. I can taste the Italian sausage. I can taste that sauce that needs just a little bit of salt. I can see and feel Franklin laying still at your feet. I know what a sunset looks like.
00:27:15
Speaker
Right? And so there is actually what you're saying is there is very much something of the presence of God that is available to me if I sink down. I think that's exactly true. Because even like even as you're speaking back,
00:27:38
Speaker
what you're sensing in the story. like It does bring like a tearfulness to my eyes. you know where it Yeah, that that what i'm craving like that's what I'm It sort of feels like that. I don't think I would have put these words to it before we started talking, but that stepping onto holy ground. right and maybe i'm not Maybe I'm not even awake to all of the hope of what I'm longing to experience there with God. But like i'm I'm coming because I know it's important. like My body knows it needs it. um
00:28:11
Speaker
um And it's not like it's not like every single one of those nights I totally outrun, like sometimes work no comes back in, right? Just like a minute, like when you meditate for five minutes and like the the thoughts penetrate, it's like, that still happens. But sometimes it really does. It's like you get that big, deep inhale in your lungs where you're like, yeah, like I'm I'm so grateful for what this is. And this life is really good. Like I'm surrounded by beauty and enough and belonging and delight. And Katie, it's simple, right? I mean, and it so if the external of your life was chaos or tragedy or difficult or, ah you know, whatever it might be, that spaghetti sauce in its simplicity
00:29:01
Speaker
still anchors you to something of goodness, still reminds you that that you can you can, even if it's just for a few minutes, there's something in the midst of what feels hard that can be a taste of goodness. yeah And it's always available. And I do think my striving energy, it is counterintuitive to my body to remember like what if goodness is simple. Far more available to you than you. it's not It's not necessarily the special date night. It's not the triple way that costs a plane ticket. it's not We need to do something exciting.
00:29:49
Speaker
Those those can be great right like you can have great memory, but sometimes I feel like we look for goodness is about scale and it's really not like goodness is simple it's about Yeah, maybe we should maybe we should start a you know like a like a once a week invitation to women on their Instagram to post the simplest sweet moment and Mm-hmm. And it can't it can't it can't be the simplest sweet moment that happened on your extravagant vacation. Right. Because I really just... And not that those aren't great. That's fine. But I think we just need more reminders that some sort of simplicity in in the midst of everything. Like, this is my actual life. Yeah. This is a picture of my actual life and and a moment of goodness that I found in it.
00:30:46
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Well, so so i'll I'll read my piece and and it's interesting. i think I think we kind of move into it probably well in the naming of what can come against, what the choice that you have to make. Yeah. So I wrote this just i wrote this a few years ago.
00:31:14
Speaker
It's 2 a.m. The limbs of the trees outside my window are moving in the wind. The sound of the leaves rustling a bit is agitating. I can't stop my thoughts. One after another all in a similar vein and none of them productive. Did I have caffeine after 2 p.m.? Are these hot flashes ever going to stop?
00:31:35
Speaker
Is it the glass of wine I drank? I should exercise more. I'm too busy. I've done this to myself. At 2 a.m., I am always at fault, always a failure, always a disappointment. At 2 a.m., I have COVID, cancer. I'm perhaps having a heart attack. At 2 a.m., my kids are in danger, my parents are having a health crisis, and I am one phone call away from tragic news about people I love.
00:32:03
Speaker
At 2 a.m., it's my job to do better, apologize, ask forgiveness, do penance, and still end up not being able to resolve or write what is wrong with me, my relationships, or the world. The 2 a.m. wake-up calls from my brain and body began years ago when menopause collided with a difficult and painful season of leadership professionally, producing the 2 a.m. cocktail of hot flashes, night sweats, and toxic thoughts.
00:32:31
Speaker
Back then, I would often get out of bed, make some peppermint tea, and sit wrapped in a blanket watching the fire. I listened to all those thoughts, welcoming them as if they were treasured guests here to tell me the truth. I believed the voices would help me repent, change, improve, and become more obedient. Instead, my heart raced, my blood pressure climbed, and anxiety became my new companion day and night.
00:32:58
Speaker
A friend suggested yoga. Growing up in a conservative evangelical setting, I had been taught that yoga was bad and would open some mystical door to soul-damaging influences. But I needed something, so I added yoga to my morning ritual.
00:33:13
Speaker
Quietly, I lay on the floor in my home office listening as the soothing voice from my app told me what to do. Breathing in, exhaling, moving my body was good. And most days, my practice ended with me softly sobbing in child's pose. Mark knew I was struggling to sleep through the night and on a snowy, cold December night buried deep under our comforter, holding the weight of all the things, he simply prayed, Jesus, please.
00:33:41
Speaker
No other words were necessary. Those two words became my mantra during yoga and my sacred words during contemplative prayer. They were the way home when I lost myself in the swirling thoughts and accusations in the middle of the night.
00:33:57
Speaker
I've come to know that 2 a.m. racing thoughts, fear-filled wonderings and accusations are not treasured guests or the voice of God. They don't need to be listened to or entertained. They need to be kindly ushered outside and the door closed behind them. They are a reminder that I am always in need of the presence of Jesus and oftentimes Peppermint Tea and a soft blanket.
00:34:20
Speaker
I remember that post and love that post. I love I love the journey of that post because i I feel like that's something that everyone can.
00:34:31
Speaker
relate to where it's like the energy when you were first having those 2am thoughts of like, I need i need to to take account for all of these. I need to give them all credence. God is showing me something here. God has woken me up. He picked me. Right. um Or not.
00:34:53
Speaker
um and And the kindness that you like have grown into, right? we like it Because it's very motherly to your blanket and tea and like calm. it's It's how you hush a child. Right, like who goes upstairs when their child is crying in the night and says, who are you mean to today? Where have you failed? This is probably your fault. You're awake because you're guilty. Yes, let's get on our knees and ask forgiveness.
00:35:29
Speaker
That was what I was thinking as like you were being drawn day and day again, once you started yoga into child's pose, right? It's like, I i feel like there was this invitation for you to tend to the smallest, most vulnerable, most pure, most essential parts of yourself and and do something different than what the 2am thoughts and all that the 2am thoughts meant like because that inner critic she's there during the day too. It's just she was unbridled at 2am.
00:36:06
Speaker
You know, in this conversation about thriving and being present in our moment, it again felt like posture makes a big difference. Like how you are with yourself yes and how you pretend to yourself can radically change the experience of thriving, quote, unquote. Right. Right.
00:36:28
Speaker
Yeah, and I, you know, I think for most for for most people, the the awake at 2am is ah that that that is such lonely, isolating,
00:36:44
Speaker
really kind of dark space and and it is a reality for for women that they're there're there is a season of time that that that is just your reality. You are going to, you know, what I would come to find out is that ultimately I could be doing all of the things right and I'm still up at 2 a.m.
00:37:05
Speaker
and and And so I had no idea how I was supposed to be with myself in the middle of the night. um None. None.
00:37:20
Speaker
and And I almost think that that inner critic, you know at some level, i think she I think that inside of me, um I think you can certainly experience some sort of you know spiritual warfare or assault on on your person. okay i like i I absolutely believe in that.
00:37:39
Speaker
And I also have come to know that like the critic inside of me it is is often, like she's showing up because she she's trying to protect me from something. She's trying to, you know she's she's a part of me that learned how to be on guard, that learned how to yeah get myself where I felt like I was prepared for whatever was coming at me.
00:38:04
Speaker
yeah oh and ah and And so I think that like sometimes in the middle of the night, it's like, I don't i don't know what to do. i'm I'm awake and I am unwell. And so that voice is like, well, you should probably just be thinking about all these things you've done wrong. Maybe if you fix those, you won't be awake tomorrow night at 2 a.m. She doesn't have good advice for me. She doesn't know what to do at 2 a.m. any more than I do. Yeah.
00:38:32
Speaker
um but But choosing kindness ah and and the permission to let those voices like, you know, let that go. And I think fundamentally for me, a shift in the idea that, you know, God's voice for us is not harsh. It's it's just not. yeah when the When the voice that we're hearing is accusatory and harsh and exacting and and passing judgment, ah that's not something we're supposed to entertain. But I didn't i didn't know that until I was probably you know into my 40s before my thinking on that was challenged and my posture.
00:39:20
Speaker
about that change. Yeah. And I'm going to use a big word for being up at 2am. But i I feel like I heard in your journey, like, it is a renegotiating of our relationship with suffering, right? Yes. There's not a cause and effect. Right. Like, I'm not up because. Right. I'm up because I'm a woman. Right.
00:39:46
Speaker
And like how how many seasons of womanhood have wakefulness as a part of them, right? Where it's like you're up at an hour of the night that you weren't expecting and it's not a punishment. And so if you can renegotiate your relationship with like, this is my reality right now and it's recurring and it's coming back to me. And that's on a really tiny scale when it comes to something like insomnia, which can grow bigger if you're not getting rest, but then it's on a bigger scale when it's cancer, or it's, you know, these these things that it's like, this isn't a punishment, but it is my life. And so how do I negotiate this space if we get rid of all the trite platitudes about like, well, there's always a reason or God doesn't give you something you can't handle, or, you know, this is probably a chance to seek God, you know,
00:40:36
Speaker
I just think there's yeah something there that is about thriving too, because we are all going to face those seasons. Yeah, as you name all that. i like you know I'm thinking of of resources, like things that have been helpful for me in the in in in finding my own way and in and what I would call like you know ah ah a deeper spiritual formation around um around suffering, around womanhood, around personhood. And I think ah in the realm we were just touching, I think Kate Bowler's voice is is one
00:41:15
Speaker
one of such kindness and knowing probably just about anything that she has written would be a good place or just follow following her on Instagram yeah um is is an interruption to our urgency and an interruption to our sort of our flight from our humanness Um, so I would probably throw her out there as, as somebody, maybe our listeners could, if you're wondering who's somebody you could fall, follow, um, with a different voice. Um, and I know for me, another, a book that, that I was given again, like years ago, um, written by Anne Murrow Lindbergh, it came out in 1955 called The Gift of the Sea.
00:42:07
Speaker
And um and i would I would say I think it's also just like a tremendous resource for women. It's a tiny book. It's not a difficult read. It's it's easy and kind of chock full with some really beautiful nuggets. And for me, one of the things that that is most significant is that it was written in 1955, and yet as I read it, some of the the things that I find myself highlighting or wanting to take away feels like that's what women's lives look like today. And if they look like that today with social media and and advertising and how quick are our lives are moving, and Anne Murrow Lindbergh was writing the same thing in 1955, what does that say?
00:42:57
Speaker
you know And kind of what does it say about some of maybe just what's baked in for us in, I'll say particularly in America, but baked in for us ah about you know the messages and the pressures around um what the what the beautiful life of a good woman looks like. yeah Yeah. And the tendencies you and I have talked about the gift of the sea before. The propensity we have to like tip into the anxious and the flushed and the hurried and the urgent and the gift that the natural world provides in once again, like drawing us deep into a moment, reminding us of rhythm, reminding us to be centered, almost like inviting us to that yoga practice, right? Of like breath and being.
00:43:49
Speaker
yeah yeah Really good. Good to see you. Yeah, I don't feel like we fixed anything today. but no i mean and I think that you're and and like that's the gift. Yeah, exactly. We didn't fix anything. We don't have a we don't have a prescription for anybody. But but hopefully, a takeaway, you know i I will take away again. I think the invitation from you, even like just as I'm standing at the stove,
00:44:20
Speaker
um and i And I think for me, part of what I get to take away today is that like, you know, I'm standing at my stove almost as many nights a week as you are. And when I choose to savor, I get to be not only connected to that moment for me, but I get to be connected now to that moment for you. And that feels really sweet. Taking from you the instinct when the racing thoughts are coming
00:44:51
Speaker
to rather than outrun it, do one of my like sort of destructive numbing behaviors, like scrolling on Instagram, like to mother myself, like to choose more comforting, embodied, wait where whether it's a bubble bath, whether it's a blanket and tea, whether it's a nap.
00:45:13
Speaker
right but like what or maybe even a walk, right? Like, but there there are a number of embodied things I can choose that just can tend to that anxiety differently so and actually provide some release. Yeah, i think that's a good, that is a good way to be present to my world. All right. All right. Till next time.
00:45:39
Speaker
The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Erin Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson, and all our guests are part of the Red Tent Living community. You can find us all at redtentliving.com, as well as on Facebook and Instagram. If you love the stories shared here, we would be thrilled if you left us a review. Until next week, love to you, dear ones.