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Sisterhood & Solidarity with Danielle Castillejo and Katy Stafford
69 Plays6 days ago
In this conversation therapist and advocate Danielle Castillejo connects with host Katy Stafford to consider how we best show solidarity for one another. Bridging their own experiences (and missteps) along their journeys of honoring difference, engaging culture and race, and owning their own impact, Katy and Danielle reflect on how solidarity begins with engaging your own story truthfully. Tune in for more of their fascinating back and forth and for the chance to think about your relationship with showing solidarity differently.
For more stories from brave, ordinary women, join us at Red Tent Living.
Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary. Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives. We're excited for you to join us. Welcome to our table.
00:00:27
Speaker
Hey there, it's Katie. I am so excited for you to listen to our conversation today. I'm chatting with Danielle Castiejo, a really good friend, about solidarity and sisterhood. It's a frank and poignant conversation that leverages all of Danielle's wisdom as a therapist and an advocate, and it's a really special conversation.
00:00:53
Speaker
Just a little note for anybody listening, there are a couple of expletives used over the course of the conversation. So if you have tiny ears nearby and you want to wait to listen to this, we wanted to make sure to share that warning with you. With that, I can't wait for you to hear everything that we talk about together. I think it's really valuable and enlightening.
00:01:18
Speaker
Hi, how's it going? It's good. It's early morning out here in Paul's Bow, but it's a strange August because most of our summer was sunny and suddenly it got very dark and cloudy the end of August. So I think everybody's like, what's happening out here?
00:01:36
Speaker
In Michigan, we like had that first taste of fall this whole last week. like You're waking up and it's 48 degrees. And then headed into this next week, it's spiking up to 90 again. So it's like my body doesn't know. I feel out of sorts with the season.
00:01:52
Speaker
Right. but So we're talking about sisterhood and solidarity today, which I am excited about. And I was preparing and like feeling the weightiness. like It's a significant topic and I really want to do it justice. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thing to think about, especially in the season we're in of politics and socioeconomic, ah I would almost call them like mood swings.
00:02:18
Speaker
to could work so Yeah, it's an interesting concept. It's something, you know, I think a lot of us have probably thought about in different forms. We might not call it solidarity. But yeah, how do we come alongside people? Yes, I think I think what you're calling out is exactly right. I believe that like, up till the summer of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor in 2020, I think I probably used the word solidarity a little too lackadaisically, where it was just like, oh, this is about like standing together in unity, and which is true. But I think since then, I've also thought about like
00:03:03
Speaker
How do we believe one another across difference? How do we honor one another than the stories that we're telling with our bodies, with our words across difference and pay attention? It just like set a different trajectory for me. That's a little bit of what I plan to talk about today. But I think that's really important, like to be mindful, not to use words like solidarity, which carry a deep bond to casually.
00:03:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think ah i mean there's some authors I think of that define, I think these words are politicized and they are highly political words as they should be. And they're also in those political contexts, they get moved into like a specific party line or a specific ah religious bent or faith tradition, which is typical typically not Evangelical um not to say that can't be So I think like just to know even the words we use carry their own Kind of breadcrumb trails of where they came from and depending on who we're with it's gonna mean something different Well, should we get into it should I kind of tell you the story that's living yeah, yeah, okay, um so as I thought about this time it
00:04:30
Speaker
took me back to that summer of 2020. I was working at a nonprofit, global nonprofit, had um people all over the world from different cultures. We were all working to the together to solve and address poverty, world hunger, um climate change, like all of these issues.
00:04:53
Speaker
And we all came from different backgrounds. And so like a core value, the organization was every year, like new hires would participate in the intercultural development inventory test. So that's like a ah national organization that helps organizations let their employees ah assess what is your cultural competence? Like how do you do in celebrating other cultures, hearing them, honoring them?
00:05:22
Speaker
And they kind of have a scale. They'll have a scale of like starting with denial where like you don't see cultural difference at all. And then like a polarizing space where you sort of identify groups as like ah us versus them. And then like a minimizing space where it's like, well, we're all basically the same, right? Like you try to build bridges on sameness without celebrating difference.
00:05:49
Speaker
And then kind of this acceptance space where it's like, you see difference, you make decisions informed by it, you're curious about it, all the way to like adaptation and celebration to authentically shift your behavior and your practices.
00:06:07
Speaker
to celebrate every culture in the room. So it's like a really wide continuum. And ah the two scores that this organization helps each employee assess is like, how do you perceive yourself in cultural space? And then what they call your developmental score. And so the purpose is to assess the gap, like how self-aware are you of where you think you are and where you can show up.
00:06:34
Speaker
And then to just also assess growth overall. Cause ideally you want the whole trajectory for each employee to be growing more towards celebration. I took the test and I was waiting in this Zoom call for my coach to show up. And it's just the two of us and it's totally anonymous. And I was super nervous because my developmental score was lower than I thought it would be. Like I i thought I probably live in the realm of like,
00:07:04
Speaker
My perceived score was acceptance, right? I was like, I feel like that's where I am. My developmental score was sort of straddling that line between polarization and minimization. And I was just sort of rocked with that and sitting in the weight of that. like It's not who I want to be. And like i want to I'm grateful for this opportunity to talk about this honestly, to come up with like a personal growth plan, but also it's vulnerable.
00:07:33
Speaker
So my coach, she like hops into the Zoom call and she's this 50 year old artistic woman. She's got this cool pixie haircut and these really cool glasses and this like flowy, scarf, like multi-colored outfit. And she just has this big smile and she's like, hey, Katie, like I'm so excited to meet you. i've I've looked at your report. How are you feeling coming into this space?
00:08:02
Speaker
And I took a ah deep breath, I mean, I smiled, and and then I just like told her, honestly, I was like, honestly, I'm battling a lot of shame. like i ah I thought I had better tools for hearing the people around me and and meeting them where they are, and that's who I want to be, and I'm struggling with that.
00:08:24
Speaker
And I remember she just kind of nodded and took it in for a moment. And I was left in that like tension of like, what are you gonna do with me? Like it was a moment where I felt very naked, right? Like we're not hiding any of my ugliness here, right? Like there are inadequacies on display. And and where she went, like I was so grateful for it. She was like, well,
00:08:49
Speaker
first i want to start with talking about your two scores because i can hear your judgment for the gap um and she said i want you to know that like how you perceive yourself is who you are on your best day like when you are in spaces of belonging and safety when you have enough when you're not driven by scarcity like You show up with acceptance. You show up curious. You show up eager to hear difference and accommodate and account for it. um That's who you are. And your developmental score is who you are on your baseline worst day. Like when you are stressed, when you are angry, when you're confused and tired, when you don't have enough, this is the mode that you click into.
00:09:37
Speaker
And she said, so i I guess what I want to start with and what I want to ask is, are there any places where you're tired and angry right now? And it was just this moment, I almost laughed at the question because we were in the middle of that 2020 summer. And I was like, of course I'm tired and angry. And she said, well,
00:10:03
Speaker
You know, what you do, what your scores show is that what you do in this space with your polarization is what's called reversal. And you feel that your culture is inferior and you feel ashamed of where you come from. She said, so that's what I want to talk about. And I was sort of shocked. I was like, well, yeah, I'm watching where I came from, like these white, largely male, religious,
00:10:31
Speaker
context where people are saying things that feel cruel and minimizing and like I don't know how to stay I just feel like I'm washed in shame the whole time like I don't know how to own the story of where I came from and show up with integrity and worth in in the spaces where I'm marching right I'm marching and I'm feeling silent because I'm like I'm a part of the problem She's like, that's not that's not necessarily where we want to start. And so we started talking about racialized trauma and how we hold it in our bodies. And she assigned Rizma Manakam's work to me, my grandmother's hands. And she's like, let's start you talking about like how you hold race inside your body. And that day was like the beginning of a journey for me of like sinking more into my body.
00:11:23
Speaker
to own like where do I come from and from there be able to authentically engage with others. And I i think that was the first day that I realized solidarity starts with my own embodiment. like I can't actually reach out to a sister unless I'm like deeply grounded.
00:11:44
Speaker
in myself, like the negative of that and where I come from, the goodness and the hope of that, like all of it. And so it just, it started me on like a totally different journey. Yeah, and that's, I was so grateful for that woman that day. Like she just did such good work in like an hour of helping me kind of find myself in what was a very charged space that nobody had directly engaged me about, right? because like you don't talk about race and your position with it and solidarity that deeply very often. So yeah, that's, that's the story of like my start on the solidarity journey. I had to mute myself for a second because it was making this fuzzy noise. Um, yeah, no, I hear that. Like I think often, uh, I did a research, a postgraduate research project and asking people like, when did you realize you were white?
00:12:43
Speaker
And that's kind of what I hear. yourre You weren't at that spot, but like she was encouraging that I think one, you know, white isn't the culture, but what is your culture, right? Like, and the fact that you do have a culture is important, right? Yeah. Because there are roots and things inside of that that you can draw from that were meant to be erased.
00:13:07
Speaker
for acceptance into this like socially created group that's not actually working, right? Yes. Yeah. yeah i mean you know it's I think that's a ah real um struggle for a lot of white people. like What is my culture? and like the the words around that, like as you look at black cultures, Latina cultures, like there's food and story and celebrations. like It's just this rich fabric that immediately there's knowing and connection. And I i experience, like maybe that happens for white people in so very hyper-specific regions, where it's like, oh, we both grew up,
00:13:56
Speaker
in southern Alabama, right? So there's like some certain subtext that they connect with, but it doesn't feel like the fabric of whiteness necessarily has lots of language around, like what is an actual culture and belonging that we all gather around that connects us in positive and good ways. I think that's a thin space.
00:14:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's not a space because it's like ah not a culture, like, right? yeah um yeah Well, yeah, that's what they did, right, to erase your culture. Because at one time, you know, I was actually in California recently, and ah looking at my grandfather was in a ah children's home there. And so I was looking through records and found this children's home, went to the plaza, and I can say more about that later. But Anyway, e-mailed the historian and the historian sent me the archives for the Methodist Church. and They called it a multiracial ah like ministry.
00:15:00
Speaker
and Under it were Portuguese, were Italians. they At this point in the 1920s in California, in Southern California, they were not considered white.
00:15:11
Speaker
So now they are considered white. Portuguese and Italian right are considered white. So at some point, you know Irish weren't considered part of the European accepted family, right that European culture. So um there were times when there were certain Germans that weren't accepted. So it is really important, even if you're like German, Irish,
00:15:34
Speaker
you know People will say, oh i'm just I don't know what I am. Well, yes, you can figure it out. like You can do that work to figure it out. and and What from your grandparents and what from your parents, like what are the stories there that come down? But yes.
00:15:48
Speaker
My mom and I were just talking about this. She's like, I'm mostly Scottish, but we don't embody that. It's like we don't have, we don't eat Scottish dishes or like have traced back our coat of arms and like we don't, we don't wear kilts ever. Like there's no attachment to that original story.
00:16:08
Speaker
And yeah, I wonder what it looks like for us to maybe do some work of reclaiming that and potentially finding others who carry that story too. you know like It is just masked over with that white label. now I think it's a good point because then it becomes really hard if you don't know who you are, where you come from. It becomes really hard to stand next to so next to someone and say, I'm with you. Well, what version of you is with them? Yeah. Well, what version of me is with someone? How am I showing up?
00:16:40
Speaker
how do I know who I am and how that's showing up. and so Even me knowing a little bit of my culture, it's so funny. My dad always said he was 100 percent German and then we did like these DNA tests. yeah like Bro, you lied to me.
00:16:57
Speaker
Scottish and Italian and like Jewish. and you know My mom is who we thought she was, but there's also this myth that I think most people say like, I'm part French. Everybody said, ah we're French, we're French, and there was like no French. so um But just to know where you come from, who you are, what are those cultural things. Yes, foods like an identifier, but what were the ways that you know Scottish people And they did, had to fight for freedom. That's right. Had to fight oppression. And those, i you may not have an immediate family member that came from fighting that oppression in Scotland, but at some point someone was because they had they had their own tribes, you know? That's right.
00:17:45
Speaker
And like Rees-Manakam writes about like, you carry that story in your body. Like that has been passed down generationally, that fight, the loyalties, the fears and trauma, like all of that carried all the way through. And so if you're not naming it and owning it, then it's not like being transformed inside of you. It's just recurring. Like, so that's huge.
00:18:11
Speaker
I think I've noticed too, when I come into a space and I'm less aware of who I am, and I want to, let's say, maybe use the word come alongside someone else, be an ally, which is kind of a word, being maybe be an accomplice is a better word. I like that. their struggle um I get in the dirt with them. If I don't know who I am, I end up taking resources and space for myself as I'm trying to help them. Instead of bringing my full self and having myself resourced and confident to join in their cause, I can end up, um, and I'm not saying it it happens. And I'm sure it's happened to many ah people who are even listening where you come in and you're like, Oh shit,
00:18:56
Speaker
I need a lot of care or I'm not well. And then and instead of, and that's part of the journey. So it's not linear, but, but to come in knowing who you are, when you're there to support someone is really helpful. So you don't take up that space taking from them. That's so wise. I mean, the, the work that we're about in solidarity, like it can,
00:19:21
Speaker
activate you, it can trigger you, it can ah and uncover something in you, you can even make a misstep even with good intentions and you need that well of like, okay, how do I step back into myself, hold what I've done in its impact and create repair rather than like creating a cyclone of just chaos that takes the whole thing off course and gets people focused on you and your issues rather than the work that we're about. Yeah, and I think that is the hard work of learning to walk alongside people in other cultures. Just in February, I had been out of town. I was at this meeting in Detroit and then came back into town and in my absence, had kind of I don't know if you do this. I'm on a bunch of text threads and there was a meeting coming up. It was really important.
00:20:14
Speaker
And I was paying attention, but not like reading it to like paying attention. And someone someone in somewhere in the said like I'm sending out a draft email. I'm going to send this out. And I was like, oh, it's going to be fine. Like there's no way.
00:20:29
Speaker
And the email wasn't bad, but who it went to was not all appropriate. and And it wasn't like people that weren't safe, but when we got in the space, the people that wrote the email hadn't necessarily checked in and got permission from who they needed to get permission from to just reserve a space And it it happened with a ah local cultural group that is very dear to my heart. And so my name was on the email as if I had done it. And in the sense, I had done it because I wasn't there. But I said, oh, yeah, you can sign my name. you know um And so I got to the meeting. I'm thinking everything's great. And it is clearly not OK.
00:21:15
Speaker
And in the mean, so I got there, we're sitting there and I'm assessing it. And I'm like, Oh, we're, we're in deep. Like this meeting is for one thing. It's for education, but we've made this other huge offense by using the space. So immediately we shift gears. We move, we move the whole group to another space. And then instead of getting down to the meeting and the task at hand, the task at hand reverted to.
00:21:42
Speaker
now we need to write a letter of apology together. And there were about 20 people in the room and three of us on a computer trying to write a letter of an apology. And because I hadn't been in the planning stage, I didn't even know all that I was apologizing for. So we get the letter out. It seems to go well. People agree to drop by flowers, do all these things. Well, like two days later, I talked to this elder in our community and I'm like,
00:22:11
Speaker
I'm so sorry. And she's like, Hey, you sent, you also sent this email that I felt like, um, revealed my identity. And I was like, Oh, really? And I, and so I deleted it and, um, took care of that and I called her back and I said, I'm so sorry. Like I didn't realize how nuanced even reserving a space was.
00:22:34
Speaker
And she, in her own language, she just spoke over me some words that were like, I think it must've meant like I forgive you. and i And it never came up again. And I learned so much in that moment that in our process of coming alongside or using space from other cultures, like you cannot just sign off.
00:23:00
Speaker
And if you sign off and you're not present to what's being said, the way it's being asked, your butt will be on the line. The work of solidarity, it is like, it is the ministry of hyper presence. Like fully in the whole, and as you were talking about the apologies, like I was thinking about during my stint at that organization where I did that work,
00:23:28
Speaker
I'm sorry became a frequent because it's like I was just learning over and over where like something I did in the professional workspace was a different working style or like I missed something a core value of like a Kenyan colleague who's working with me or a Bangladeshi field officer like it was just this recurring I'm sorry as a part of the work right like you know true solidarity when you can apologize and repair and then do better next time because it's like you're constantly walking into those spaces so it's it's a full contact sport like it takes all of you and like
00:24:09
Speaker
over and over again. it's And I think that's why so and why I shy away from groups sometimes in the past or even now. i've i I don't feel scarred from that instance, but I feel aware of the weight of it. And and so ah just that it is a deep investment and in a culture where we're on our phones and we can send a quick text message and we can like say, we can maybe not see that person again. Maybe we don't even ever see them. Maybe they live across the country.
00:24:39
Speaker
be like, I'm sorry, LOL. And like, you're like, they're out of sight, out of mind. But when we're present in our community with people from other cultures, other ethnicities, other races, it does mean like you say, we have to sit down and do the work. And then there are times where, you know, and I've been a part of these times too, where it is just not possible to repair sometimes. Yes. Yeah.
00:25:05
Speaker
and And how do you still show up in common spaces when that happens and in solidarity for the other person or there or them for you? It is not easy work. It is not.
00:25:18
Speaker
but is not Sorry, that was kind of a tangent, I guess. oh i I feel like this is great. It's it's hitting all the complexities and nuances. what a What story are you bringing into the space today? I guess just I think about that story that I just told you um about that apology and how the purpose of the meeting was to actually work on an educational issue where we hadd had had actually a huge victory. And it turned into a huge, what I would consider just pain point. um Even as I think about it, I feel paid. And I'm all good with the people that were in that room. We're all good, but I i remember that. um And i cute I acutely remember being in Detroit and looking at my phone and being like, it'll be okay.
00:26:07
Speaker
And I'd be like, no, I won't do that again. You know, like I won't like thousands of miles away, like say an okay to something even it seems minute, but to reserving a space. i I think when we're truly invested in our community, even when we don't like people, um we can still be in solidarity with them. We don't have to agree with all their politics. um We've rallied around education in my little town.
00:26:34
Speaker
and it's been people, you know frankly, there's some people I just don't like that show up, but they're 100% for kids and okay. And that's what we're about today. Yes. I, thinking back to what you said at the beginning of this episode around the like politicizing of that word, I'm aware that like when I hear solidarity in a speech, there can be a lot of grandeur to it. And it's like this great thing and as I think about the stories we've been sharing back and forth today I hear the like the mud and the dirt and the hardship but like this is hard work it has pain points and you know valleys it's not glamorous it's so good it's good work but like let's not put a sheen around it like day in day out hearing apologizing listening being present like
00:27:31
Speaker
It's a lot it is. It's it's a lot to bring yourself to a space where maybe you don't like everybody someone's hurt your feelings um Maybe they've even done you harm in specific ways. And so you have some good boundaries and you're also like, let's say working on a common Goal for your community, which is equal access to education, which was the case here So then in that bag you have a lot of different kinds of people that don't share maybe your view on equity, even though you're there for equitable access to education, they actually maybe, and you might have to edit this out, they have to be MAGA Republicans, and you're like, holy shit, but their kid is neurodivergent, right?
00:28:16
Speaker
um What I learned though in addressing the school district is that because we stepped out and said something, people that had kids that had different kinds of neurodivergent challenges or maybe their child needed access to sign language resources, they would write to me and they'd say, hey Danielle, can you help me?
00:28:35
Speaker
Hey, Danielle, like I know this is for like the Latinx community, but i I'm this person and I can't access education here. And when I was working with my immigrant organizing group, we we just started saying, yes, come.
00:28:50
Speaker
come with us. We don't know the answer to your question, but yes, come to the meeting with us. Yes, come. um Let's write down your story. Let's give it to the school district. Let's put it on record. And that was a way to build solidarity. It didn't really matter what color skin anybody had. Didn't matter how they voted. What mattered was that their child actually had a right to education too.
00:29:13
Speaker
their child had a right to ah to the love and care from teachers to be able to receive communications in a way that they could Understand them so they could do the right thing for their child um And so those became the priorities and and when you have a common good You have to set down your own, you know personal grievances yeah I believe and say What do I value here?
00:29:43
Speaker
Well, I value that child. I don't know that child, but should a child that needs access to sign language have sign language resources at school? Absolutely. I can get behind that. i Me and that parent may never talk again, but that doesn't really matter. That child deserves that access. So when I think solidarity is built around common love and care, then we we can even allow ourselves, we don't have to lie to ourselves about that we don't like someone.
00:30:13
Speaker
That's okay. It is okay. I don't think Jesus liked everybody anyway. well The way you're expressing like the generosity of spirit like and not not in a soft way where it's like, oh, everything's okay. like You still knew like these are the core values. I don't agree with these things, but like it it's true. like if you're If what you're fighting for,
00:30:41
Speaker
doesn't belong to everybody's child, then what are you really fighting for? like That's not equality of education. like I love the tension point of, like not that any of these people were an enemy, but truly, like if it's not for if it's not for the child of my enemy, then it's I'm not truly embodying what I claim I'm embodying. And like to actually live that out like on the front line, um that's beautiful work, Daniel.
00:31:08
Speaker
Thanks. And I think, you know, I came out of a really rigid evangelical space. And so the temptation is to become just as rigid in a liberal space. Oh, yeah. To become, you know, like, it has to be this way. We can't disagree. Like, there's no nuance. And then if we act like that, we haven't shown that we've learned anything at all.
00:31:27
Speaker
Nothing at all. That's just a reverse. like That's a different us versus them. You're not moving forward in that space of celebration and bridge building. yeah so are you I know what I'm taking from the conversation today is exactly what you were just talking about, that like solidarity is common love and like the radical act of that love crossing some of those deep ideological differences. That's what I want to walk into the future with. What about you?
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's how I'm trying to see the world right now, that there are fundamental things. And we're hearing it talked about nationally now, yeah um the right to for a child. here For me, I have three kids in school, and school is about to start. So it's this this thought that any child in my community has a right to love and education and opportunity. And what that looks like or the mode that that gets delivered and may be different. So I think for me, it's just a good reminder, just talking to you, thank you. um Just a good reminder that there are things that are more important than our differences and we can we can work on those things together with people. Thank you for making the time today.
00:32:45
Speaker
Nada, thank you. So good. I love that this is how the day started. I just feel hopeful. The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Erin Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson, and all our