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Reimagining Motherhood with Tracy Johnson and Lyndsey Ribble
76 Plays1 month ago
Motherhood is a journey, unfolding with lessons and transformations as we care for our children and grow into the parents they need. Together, Tracy and Lyndsey reflect on their own journeys of motherhood and how profoundly their ideas of motherhood have shifted from when they initially embarked on that road to the way they mother today. Tearful, hilarious, and tender, join this candid conversation about the lessons that motherhood has to teach us if we are brave enough to keep becoming alongside our children
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Transcript
Introduction to Red Tent Living Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Katie Stafford, and this is the Red Tent Living Podcast, where brave women host honest conversations about our beautiful and hard ordinary. Each week, we share stories with the hope of seeing one another a little better and affirming each other across different seasons and perspectives. We're excited for you to join us. Welcome to our table.
00:00:27
Speaker
Right, Lindsay, it's great to talk to you today and fun to see you. Great to talk to you too.
Redefining Motherhood
00:00:34
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to talk about motherhood redefined. And I think my first question for you is like, what sort of popped into your mind when you first read that that was our topic?
00:00:48
Speaker
I think my response was like, hell yes, I want to do that. And then quickly followed by, there's so many different ways that can go. How am I going to narrow this down to one thing? Because your hood definitely has looked so differently than what I anticipated it looking like. And so just trying to hone that in um was incredibly difficult because you know, i I think I went into motherhood as many of us do with so many predefined notions of how I was going to be as a mom and how my kids were going to be and how my kids were going to respond and how I was going to discipline and how our family unit was going to be. And all of it got blown up really quickly, and really quickly.
00:01:40
Speaker
And then, you know, to add insult to injury, it's like my, even just kind of the way my family is formed looked a lot different. I always kind of assumed I would have a blended, you know, boys and girls family, and I have four boys. So like, I always tell people, I'm like, if you had told me that 10 years ago, I would have thought you were joking.
Preconceived Notions and Influences on Motherhood
00:02:01
Speaker
But I love being a boy mom. So it's just been, um it's been yet another way I think that motherhood is just kind of,
00:02:08
Speaker
you define me and also just perpetually moving. What about you? Yeah. um Similarly, i mean it it it felt like, gosh, how how are we talking about how motherhood has been defined? um and Like you, I had a lot of preconceived notions that were really handed to me from my family and from the church and sort of the context that we were living in. and And I didn't feel like I was a young mom, like, that I was young when I became a mom, because, like, in 1989, when I became a mom, most of my friends um that were my age already had a kid or, you know, like me, were pregnant. And, you know, I was 24 years old. Young. Oh, my gosh.
00:03:06
Speaker
Right? I mean, I look back and it's like, that was baby yeah that was really young that was really young um to to be a mom. Mark and I have been married for two years because I got married young. So yes. So when I started thinking about how am I going to talk about what am I going to say today? I mean, I knew the story that that bubbled up for me because I've had the opportunity to like mother in two very different ways because I was that young mom and you know had three kids by the time I was 30 and even like having Steven at 30 my friends were like okay I remember but like a couple of my friends in particular being like okay you can't have kids after 30 because that's dumb you're gonna be old.
Lessons and Surprises in Motherhood
00:03:58
Speaker
Oh my gosh. But that was the like that was the narrative. you know And so at 30, I was actually one of the last, I was having a baby when like my friends were were clearly done, bright had had their kids in their 20s, and then did it again you know because I had my last two at 39 and 41.
00:04:20
Speaker
and um And and i'm I'm going to be a grandmother and Katie is in her 30s. having her first baby. So just vastly, vastly different, right? And I have watched motherhood be redefined, I think, you know, in the time that I have mothered and and even continuing as I watch what it's looking like for my kids. I love that. Congratulations. Thanks. It was very fun. So exciting. Very fun. Very fun. So do you want to, would you like to share your story first? You want me to go first?
00:04:58
Speaker
Either way, I'm happy to share. Okay, why don't you go first? I titled this one, I Wish I'd Known, and it really speaks to all the things I wish I'd known before I became a mom.
00:05:10
Speaker
thank
00:05:14
Speaker
Okay. I wish I'd known that all of the parenting classes and books could never prepare me for that moment when your first cry left your body as your body left mine.
00:05:27
Speaker
when they put your bare skin on my bare skin, when I held you on the outside of my womb with you still connected to me, when I looked at your sweet face, all your tiny perfections. I wish I'd known that the witching hour is not actually an hour, but several hours, or in certain cases, days, weeks, months, eons, and eternities.
00:05:52
Speaker
that my Google search history would look like. Does grape water actually work? What will make a baby stop crying? Baby never stops crying. Will baby ever stop crying? Will I die if I never sleep again because the baby never stopped crying? I'm happy to report that I did not die and several eons later the baby did stop crying.
00:06:12
Speaker
I wish I'd known that breastfeeding can be magical, but it's not always magical. Sometimes it is impossible and that my motherhood is not measured in the number of ounces I can produce in a pumping session or the number of months I made it before introducing formula. That breastfeeding doesn't make me a good mother and not breastfeeding a bad mother and that fed is truly best.
00:06:37
Speaker
I wish I'd known that baby belly laughs can heal almost anything. I wish I'd known that the new baby smell just leaves. From one day to the next. Do I miss it? God, do I miss it. The smell of spilled milk and baby soap and fresh cotton and heaven all mixed together.
00:06:53
Speaker
the foot powdering is the same. One day it's there and the next it's gone and I hate the silence. I wish I'd known about the epic dance parties and the sing-alongs where even the baby is belting out their version of the lyrics and everyone is in a different key but there's harmony because we're together and the joy is palpable. And then five seconds later someone is screaming because it's their turn to pick the song and he just had a turn and can we please have one more turn?
00:07:21
Speaker
I wish I'd known about the bedtime stories, the way you'd beg me to read the same book for the 500th time that night, the way I'd change my voice to match the different characters and inflection points, the way you'd learn to read, and just like that, my turns over. And I've got this mom, I'll read the bedtime story tonight becomes the norm.
00:07:41
Speaker
I wish I'd known that it's all a juggling act, that I can't be all things to all people all the time, that I can be really great at work one day or really great at momming one day or really great at self-care one day, but it's never all at once all the time. I've also learned that the often deprioritized being really great at self-care probably make it to the top of the priority list more often because that's the one that breeds energy for the others.
00:08:08
Speaker
I wish I'd known that when I'm feeling like I'm drowning, which is often, my oxygen mask really does have to go on first, that I have to let go of the non-essentials, ask for help, and prioritize the things that bring me joy and peace and rest.
00:08:23
Speaker
I wish I'd known how my stomach would drop out of my body and my heart would stop beating whenever you were out of my sight for a moment too long. How the world loses all of its color and seconds feel like hours and it's like I'm in a nightmare until I see your face and all the color returns and time resumes and my heart remembers how to beat again.
00:08:43
Speaker
I wish I'd known that when I became a mother, I could no longer hide because I see all of the facets of myself reflected back to me in your faces and actions, that my beauties are there, but my flaws are there too. And so are your fathers, and so are those of your parents, our parents and their parents. The beauties and the flaws of our fathers and forefathers and our mothers and grandmothers all represented in you.
00:09:09
Speaker
I wish I'd known that repair is more important than perfection. That rupture will happen, it's inevitable. But what we do after the rupture changes everything. That your and our neurological health literally depends on it. That repair is the most challenging but beautiful work we get to do as parents. Because as we repair with your hearts, we heal our own. I wish I'd known that being a mother would force me to do the work I wish I'd started sooner.
00:09:38
Speaker
the work of owning, the work of knowing, the work of changing, the work of becoming, the work of being, the work of loving. I wish I'd known that I'd lose myself in mothering, but I'd also find myself that just like I want you to be whoever you want to be, I have to be who I want to be. I have to go first. I have to be brave.
00:10:05
Speaker
As I know, you will follow, and I know you will be brave. We will all find our way so long as we dare to brave this wild world. I wish I'd known how hard it is, mothering. I wish I'd known how good it is, mothering. I wish I'd known how painful it is, mothering. I wish I'd known how healing it is, mothering. I wish I'd known how lonely it is, mothering.
00:10:35
Speaker
I wish I'd known how lovely it is, mothering. And that is it.
00:10:44
Speaker
How did it feel to hear yourself say it all out loud? That's the first time I made it through without crying. So I'm actually really proud of myself. There's a couple of spots in there where I typically get really choked up and it's usually around the repair.
00:11:01
Speaker
idea of repairing with your children while also repairing yourself. Um, and then I think being brave enough to be who you want to be and we and going first and not caring what other people think, but just really just kind of carrying forward. Those are the two parts that just really tug at me every time I read that. What, um,
00:11:30
Speaker
What do you think it is about repair that that surfaces your tears? I think that, and maybe you have a unique thought on this because repair is something that I don't necessarily think was taught to my parents. And so when I was being raised, not that my parents did never apologize to me because they certainly did, but I found that oftentimes they have apologized to me more now as an adult.
00:11:59
Speaker
that there's an awareness around it versus I think, you know, my husband and I like in the moment now when we kind of come out of whatever we're in.
00:12:12
Speaker
that moment of kind of chaos or tumult, um we try to repair immediately, especially if we raised our voices, especially if there was something we did on our end that we could have done better. And so I think this acknowledgement, I think at least I will speak for myself. I will not speak for my whole generation, but something I often hear with my friends is um, this kind of a dodge of like, it's really hard to become an adult because you realize your parents did make mistakes and that they were, you know, not the superheroes that never, you know, that were perfect. So this realization of, you know, removing our parents from the pedestal kind of happens in your twenties and thirties and so on, I think. And,
00:13:01
Speaker
What my hope is, is that for my children, they will realize that we're all human, that mistakes are okay, that you're you're going to stop making them. And that the biggest thing is that we learn how to communicate through them, how to apologize when we what need to apologize and how to push forward.
Authority and Vulnerability in Parenting
00:13:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I would have, uh,
00:13:27
Speaker
I would have offered exactly what you wondered, which is that i don't i the idea of of repair, even those words, were not in anybody's vocabulary. They certainly weren't. They weren't in my parents' vocabulary, so they weren't in mine.
00:13:48
Speaker
and And my oldest is just a little younger than you are. So your parents, i we we are probably in that realm of of peers, um you know, with your with your folks. And a and i would I would say like what I felt like I inherited, and I think this is probably true for your mom and dad also, is sort of like the parents are right. Yes.
00:14:16
Speaker
um um and and And not that I ever thought that I was always right. I think I knew when there had been times that like I had gone in and done to one of my kids exactly what my mom did to me and it felt bad. But but I didn't really know what to do about that.
00:14:39
Speaker
Was there fear, and i'm just I'm genuinely curious, was there fear around losing, because I think I even struggle with this today, was there fear around losing your sense of authority if you were vulnerable enough to enter in there? That's such a great that's a great question. and So i i think I think the answer for me at that time was yes. And and this is probably like a whole other road that we could walk down, right? But authority is not incompatible with vulnerability. It's so good. And what gives you your authority is is not
00:15:25
Speaker
And this is that it's like I think this is what we believe. It's like, well, if I'm the authority, then I can't be wrong. In order to maintain my authority, in order to lead well, in order to parent well, like you know what whatever it is, like I have to stand my ground. I need to know what I believe. but you know And I need to be willing to like put some sort of stake down there. and and it And it breeds, I think, this false idea that people follow you because you're right. You know, but i but I think that's gotten sort of baked in.
00:16:02
Speaker
especially especially in church environments. I think it's been baked in that we we tend to think that you know good parents, good leaders, good whoever are are certainly most always right and doing the right thing the right way. And so there just isn't there isn't a culture that that models or allows for the experience of like, ah you know, vulnerable leadership that includes that I fail and my failure does not equate an indictment on my parenting or or my pastoring or my leading, right? well So yeah, I mean, i i I think that was very true.
Generosity, Grace, and Imperfection in Parenting
00:16:56
Speaker
for me and I think i I viewed it as an indictment like too many failures too many lines in the failure category like because I because I got too angry or I was too rigid or I was too permissive you know what whatever it is too many of those and it's like oh no now I'm a bad mom now I'm a bad mom so being a good mom right is such a false idea that I had um As I was listening to you, um ah you know there were there were a couple of things that that came up for me, but I think that the big thing was like, I just heard the generosity, like, what if generosity is the truest thing? a Like, I wish I'd known that generosity is is the truest thing. I wish I'd known that all of this is the foundation under it is grace.
00:17:57
Speaker
Like that there's grace for you as the mom, there's grace for your kid, there's grace for the mistakes and the blowups. um and And then I think the other thing that stood out for me was as you started and they'm like, I have to go first. I have to go first. And and again, no indictment on your mom.
00:18:23
Speaker
like but there are places where she didn't go first. And you know that. So true. And so, yeah. i mean i and And then I think the other thing, Lindsay, and you named this really well, as you as you talked about um repair, and as you talked about being brave, and as you talked about going first, you know woven into all of that was also your words that like mothering is healing something in you.
00:18:54
Speaker
and And I think that that's that place back to where I said, like, grace is what's undergirding it that, you know, God's God's plan is not for perfect parents or perfect people. It's not his plan. That's not like he ah maybe that was his plan originally. Right. But we're all living in a post ball environment where version option to right? and and And where like the the gospel I think is actually in that space. And some of the beauty of it is that, you know, your mom can't re-parent you. Your mom was the parent that she was. Your dad was the parent that he was. And and there is something to be worked out there, but your healing isn't dependent on them. That's so true.
00:19:46
Speaker
And I think so beautiful too. that Yeah. Again, I think there's a lot of grace there. And I think there's a lot of generosity. Yeah. One other thing, I just want to touch on briefly. Cause you were talking about this need, especially like in church environments to be perfect. What's been really interesting that I've noticed in the last several years is I'm so drawn towards and attracted to pastors, to leaders, to speakers, to authors, whomever that are very vulnerable and generous with the places where they have failed in sharing those. Because I think it's so, um ah she you know I think that was missing for my parents and for me as a young person. yeah you know It was like perfection is king.
00:20:44
Speaker
oh Yeah, I mean, you know every every testimony I ever heard was sort of this before and after and I was like this is who I was before I came to Christ and then this is after and the after has this sort of magical energy to it that just isn't it's just it's not congruent. I stood on a platform a couple of months ago and ah in this church where I was leading a conference and I said you know like everything I don't want you to know about me everything I feel shame about happened after I gave my life to Jesus.
00:21:25
Speaker
That's so good. And that's so cool. It's like, what what do we do with that? So we could go down that road too, but we should probably stay on top. All right. okay ah your In that vein, yeah, that's all probably a pretty good setup. So this is something I wrote, I don't know, probably about 10 years ago. It's called an open letter to the original three, which is how my kids refer to, it's how they refer to themselves as they try and talk about the fact that there was a family that had been for a long time before my youngest two came. Dear ones,
00:22:04
Speaker
I'm writing to address where I parented you from the place titled the best I could. I'm writing to ask, will you forgive me? I want to tell each of you that you deserved so much more than the best I could offer. You deserve the full extent of God's goodness, love, nurture, comfort, kindness, attunement, playfulness, blessing, and so much more.
00:22:30
Speaker
What I gave you missed the mark, and the distance between my best and what you deserve is now the muddy and rugged emotional terrain you're left to navigate in finding your way to the depth of God's heart. There are many things that need the words, please forgive me. Here are a few. For the tight control I brought to bear on your little worlds that showed itself in harsh and heavy demands about keeping your rooms clean and organizing all those toys from the McDonald's Happy Meals,
00:23:00
Speaker
I know my presence felt too big and too angry. I can remember your little faces setting up your villages of plastic toys, having grand adventures with miniature versions of Cinderella, Aladdin, and Belle. And my demand for organization feels ridiculous today as I remember it. For not playing with you enough because I was too busy, which was really just about my own lack of comfort or ease in entering into the fun you were having.
00:23:27
Speaker
So instead I watched from the sidelines as you tied toys in the vein in the vines hanging down from the tree in the backyard. And when you crawled up into the treehouse to spend the night in your PJs and sleeping bags, you missed out and so did I.
00:23:42
Speaker
For putting you in learning environments where the rules were rigid, grace felt tied to appropriate repentance to be determined by the ruling authority. The world was divided into right and wrong, and the beauty, complexity, and nuance of everything was hidden underneath spiritual words and doctrinal truths. For subjecting you to the very things that ruined my heart in the realm of my sexuality. Youth groups where you were told that your virginity was all you had and that If the package was unwrapped, the paper torn, the bow cranked over the butt, rocks crushed, in any way you have nothing to offer your spouse when you're living. Where you heard that it was a girl's responsibility to hold the lines of purity and that boys, quote, really couldn't help themselves. Where you got the message loud and clear that your clothing would be scrutinized by all good Christians and judgments would be made about your virtue, your honor, and your beauty.
00:24:39
Speaker
Where you were taught that sexuality was binary, black and white. Where there were no words given about the reality that your sexuality exists on a spectrum. Giving you the room to explore and discover what was true for you about being male and female. Talking about it without fear of being seen as abnormal or judged as a rebellious center. For dropping you off at friends homes, at camp, at school, at youth, believing you were in safe places.
00:25:08
Speaker
leaving you facing difficult tasks of turning home, trying to find words to tell me the truth about how good you look at a place that I told you to stay. But where I missed you, missed the look in your eyes that you have told me you were not okay. For teaching you to be tough, every time I would call my tears, appeared to have endless strength or held it all together instead of offering you my real face.
00:25:35
Speaker
for not having enough time for each of you individually when you needed me, because there was often another sibling who needed me as well, leaving you without my full attention, from where my way of being leads my expectations of what you should do, who you should be, how to not disappoint me, leaving you to bear the pressure and the pains of yourself. Finally, will you forgive me for not getting real about my own life and my own story before bringing the three of you into the world?
00:26:05
Speaker
You've watched the difference of how I am with your little sisters, which shows you that more was possible. And I've heard where you feel, and in many ways, they have the mom you made and the life you loved. As I look back and remember the scenes that go with all of the above, my heart aches. I wish I could go back and do it differently. I would so love to have been more present when you were small, to have offered you more of my tenderness and love,
00:26:34
Speaker
to have played and laughed with me more. I wish I would have spoken more goodness and blessing to you before you were hurt and impacted by how evil came to assault you and constitute you. Today I can bless you and offer my heart that is more tender, my eyes that see better, and my words which are kinder, in hopes that I can continue to play a part in loving you more and more, as you continue to find your way all the way home to God.
Presence and Playfulness with Children
00:27:11
Speaker
I didn't make it through yours without crying.
00:27:16
Speaker
It's so interesting, like the interplay between yours and where you were and between mine and what I had to say. I can feel, I can feel it. I think um the two that really get me, I think because of where I'm at in my momming, where you talk about the places where you wish you had played.
00:27:42
Speaker
And, um, I'm trying to be more sensitive to that with my kids because I think I have, you know, four kids and when it's busy, yeah, a little, yeah. And, um, it's really easy for me to put them all off and be like, no, I need to make dinner. I've got to do laundry. I've got to clean. I've, you know, I have this work project, whatever it is. And I'm trying to be more sensitive.
00:28:12
Speaker
to, you know, I think my second yesterday was like, Mom, will you come sit just sit with me on the couch? And I did. And it was the best. And I think, you know, it makes me aware, though, not that there isn't grace, right? Because of course, the other the meals have to be made. Right.
00:28:34
Speaker
and the project does have to get done. But being more aware to those moments where you know they're looking for our faces and being there at least as much as I possibly can. you know yeah um And then the other part where you spoke of, you know I don't remember it verbatim, but basically I wish I'd started doing the work before i brought you into this world. And I felt the same, that I said almost the same words in mind, that I think motherhood just forces you to examine yourself in a different way. And I wish, and maybe the reality is we can't do that until we're mothers at that deep of a level. I don't know. and And I think Lindsay, I think it invites you because it doesn't force you. You don't have to do it.
00:29:29
Speaker
That is true. You know, it's the, the invitation, the invitation is there. And, um, and I, and I think the invitation, I think it was probably there even for me, you know, in 1990 when no one was talking about repair and no one was talking about your story. Like none of that was happening, but, but I was still,
00:29:57
Speaker
I was so bumping up and coming face to face with the moment it didn' moments that didn't feel good.
00:30:08
Speaker
like It's not like I was absent of those. And and so there was invitation there. I think but it would have, I didn't know how to receive or accept that invitation.
00:30:22
Speaker
Um, because I just like, I don't have any resources. Like I'm being invited to a party. I don't know the address. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to wear, wrong but you know, I don't have a map to get there, yeah but I feel the invitation. Yeah. Um, that feels super accurate. And, and I think it's important that we don't make the mistake today. Like also just because, and I can realize this,
00:30:51
Speaker
I live and breathe and and and my life is oriented around these spaces now where like that is that is just a lot of the language and it feels like it's kind of everywhere. But that that's not true for everyone. It certainly is more accessible and more available.
00:31:14
Speaker
But I think there are still think there are probably still so many women that that like me or or even like you that sense the invitation and have no map for how to get to the party. Not that doing your own work is a party.
00:31:37
Speaker
One of the analogy that feels bad is like, I don't know that it's... But maybe it could be, you know, maybe, maybe. And I think, you know, this is probably a place that intersects with red tent living that it's like, I don't know that the tent feels like a party, but I think it feels like a place to go where it's okay. And safe. And safe to not know.
00:32:06
Speaker
and um and to and to have a reasonable hope that if you risk saying the thing, you're not going to be exiled. That feels so true. So what are you going to take with you this week from our conversation this morning? I think being willing to play just really giving myself permission because I think that's where it comes from all of the shoulds and woods. And I heard it in the first part of your story of just the, well, the house needs to be in order and all of that, just allowing that to go a little bit for the sake of presence with myself and with my children. Um, I think that's what I'm taking. What about you? Um,
00:32:59
Speaker
I think a couple of things. I think the the reminder, the reminders around generosity and grace, like that just, that never wears out. And I think, I think for me, like right now, there has been a lot of healing that has come in and mothering. and And I think I'm in a season of a kind of like,
00:33:28
Speaker
how what am I gonna do with that? I've been saying like more and more often I am the oldest woman in the room. And that that's something that I'm just like that I'm experiencing more and becoming more aware of probably just in the last year.
Healing and Responsibility in Motherhood
00:33:48
Speaker
And and and I am certainly not done I am not done healing. I am not done mothering. i am not I'm done in any way. And yet there is something ah you know around around that, that I'm at an age now where I'm and carrying a lot of carrying a lot of goodness in my body. And so I think that's one of the things I'm taking with me too, is just like, hmm, what does it mean?
00:34:22
Speaker
you know, for me to continue to stay awake and generous ah around the healing that has happened and the repair that's happened for me in my own story because of mothering. um Is there more that I meant to bring or pour out or offer from that space?
00:34:50
Speaker
Like what a map you offer to those, yeah um you know? I hope so. Thank you.
00:34:58
Speaker
The Red Tent Living podcast is produced by myself, Katie Stafford, and edited by Erin Stafford. Our cover art is designed by Libby Johnson, and all our guests are part of