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With Joel Turner
80 Plays5 years ago
Your hosts Andy Bannister and Kristi Mair are joined by Joel Turner for this episode of the Persuasive Evangelism Podcast, recorded live at CreationFest 2019.
Joel fully surrendered his life to Christ while operating a comedy club in Western Canada. He is currently the Lead Pastor/Evangelist at Mountain Springs Calvary Chapel, Calgary, a church he planted over 10 years ago. Across Canada, the U.S. and overseas, Joel’s teaching work includes his association with Creationfest, Calvary Chapel International, RZIM (Ravi Zacharias International Ministries), Fred Stoeker (Every Man’s Battle) and Gravity Canada.
Questions about the show? Contact Andy on Twitter @andygbannister
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:08
Speaker
Hey, this is Andy Bannister, and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm joined by my co-host, Christian Eyre, and we are here at the final night of the Massive Creation Festival in Cornwall, if you can hear kind of bands and noise and chaos in the background.
00:00:23
Speaker
that's the reason and we're very excited just to have grabbed a dear friend of mine Joel Turner all the way from Canada who's been here kind of this week and really excited to dig into our interview with Joel for the next
Who is Joel Turner?
00:00:38
Speaker
kind of 20 minutes. Joel you're known as a number of things actually you're a comedian
00:00:43
Speaker
Quite a good one, actually, occasionally. Although you didn't like that joke I shared with you earlier. It was okay.
Is Evangelism Only for Professionals?
00:00:50
Speaker
Thank you for that. And also, pastor, evangelist, it's been great seeing you doing your stuff here at Creation Fest and seeing people respond. And this podcast is all about helping folks become more relaxed, more effective at their evangelism and work and whatever.
00:01:04
Speaker
And something might look at you and go, buddy, look, it's easy to do evangelism. You're Joel Turner. Because you are seriously very funny, attractive, articulate, bold. But loud, confident, you've got a platform. Somebody listening to this game. But how can I share my faith with my friends? On Monday to Friday, I work at a bank. I'm not particularly confident. And I've only been a Christian for you. He's not got the experience you've got. Evangelism is for professionals, not for me. What would you say on how can you tell somebody?
00:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, great question.
Critiquing Method Evangelism
00:01:34
Speaker
First off, I'd say you gotta go back about 40, 50 years first. Because I think method evangelism has taken evangelism out of the hands of the lay person and put it into the hands of the professional. What do I mean by that? Let me explain. We had all these systems. We had, and I'm not saying they're all bad, but they're just an example. So you had four spiritual laws. You had the four doors. You had friendship evangelism. You had way of the master more recently.
00:02:03
Speaker
So that you have all these methods, and I think what happened personally in evangelism when I look at it is because we had all these methods, if you ascribed to one of these, if you sort of said, okay, I'm going to try this method, you don't have to memorize that method. And again, they were sort of hit and miss with these things, even the gospel track.
00:02:20
Speaker
sort of generation where you came out with okay someone's done the work for me and we get why and there's some good in that. The challenge of that is it's moved people away from what I see more scripturally is simply spirit-led evangelism leads to boldness. That's a start.
00:02:37
Speaker
That's incredible.
Starting Evangelism with Prayer
00:02:39
Speaker
I mean, it's just so simple, isn't it? That there aren't any kind of formulas and performances that we have to kind of go through in order to share Jesus with our friends. But what would that actually look like kind of practically without falling into some of the stumbling blocks of those particular programs? I think even if you take the verse where all the disciples get together and act and it says they pray
00:03:02
Speaker
They were filled with the spirit and they spoke the word of God with boldness. That's a starting point to just say that the byproduct of the spirit filled life, the person that starts their morning and says, Lord, I'm going to put the armor of God on.
00:03:15
Speaker
And one of the pieces is the shoes of the gospel piece. So in that, there's a sense where I'm going to this day and I'm expecting now for opportunities. Now, the first thing you can put in and just real basic evangelism training is prayer and expectation. If I'm not expecting it, I'm not looking for it. If I'm not looking for it, then I'm not doing what Paul said to do in Ephesians. At the end of the book, he goes, oh, and can I put in a personal prayer request after the armor of God?
00:03:40
Speaker
Here's what it is. I want utterance that I might make known the mystery of the gospel with boldness and that I might open my mouth. So look what he's saying. Utterance, the Greek word, means clarity or clear speech, I believe. So you have someone saying, I want to speak clearly.
00:03:56
Speaker
I want to speak boldly. I want to speak the mystery of the gospel, which means there's a semblance there where I'm not going to have all the answers, but the spirit's going to fill it in like he promises to do when we do what? Number four, open our mouths. So a hundred percent of evangelism doesn't happen until you open your mouth.
00:04:16
Speaker
Yeah, no, I was gonna say I think what I find so helpful about that is I mean that technique thing Joel I can remember as a young Christian getting hung up with that You have to master the technique you haven't mastered it so you can't do the stuff But actually just beginning with you know, we've been with you've been a Christian for a week or ten years you can pray you can pray for the Lord to give you opportunity to pray for the Lord to open up opportunities and Pray for the Lord to fill your mouth when you open it
The Armor of God for Daily Life
00:04:37
Speaker
Well, take a simple approach to just your devotional life, right? We all use different words, devotions, quiet time, prayer time, Bible reading, whatever you want to call it. You should start each day with the Lord. And so I encourage people like put on the armor of God. It's command written in the tense. It's non-optional. It prepares you. And it actually, as you know, we talk about Philippians being the mental health book of the New Testament. Well, the prescription pills are the armor of God at the end of Ephesians. They really are.
00:05:04
Speaker
They do more than just go, oh, I pray through with my kids. I go put the arm and let's pray through each piece. When I'm praying through the helmet of salvation, I'm reminded of my salvation. When I'm praying through the sword of the spirit, I'm talking about the power of the word and the spirit working in my life in conjunction. And now I'm going out into my day. Remember Jesus said, what I tell you in secret, shout it from the rooftops. Well, what does he mean? I think the secret place, lots of heroes of the faith call it the secret place. It's the quiet time.
00:05:32
Speaker
So when I get this amazing, the most natural thing that someone can do that's not an evangelist, let's say, or it doesn't even, we would say have the gift of evangelism, is they can take what God's shown them in the morning, open their mouth and trust the spirit to guide a conversation. And I teach people that all the time. Hey, sit down with somebody and go, what did God show you in the morning? Oh, you know, that's really interesting in my Bible. And now people get scared of that. They're like, well, if I say my Bible, they're gonna, yeah, but you're on topic. Okay, so I don't know. That's just for me. That's the most natural for people is just share what God shows.
00:06:02
Speaker
You know, that just reminds me of Norman Grubb. I don't know if you've come across him. One of his prayers that he wrote very early on in his life was, good morning, heavenly Father, what are you doing today? Can I join you?
Spirit-led Evangelism in Action
00:06:14
Speaker
Thank you. And he then kind of started and spearheaded missions and established, was very influential figure in establishing the Christian unions in the UK. So this kind of, this role of just that simple prayer of God, what are you doing? Can I join you?
00:06:29
Speaker
Henry Blackaby, experiencing God, did the same thing. I don't know if you ever read that, but his workbook, he's like, you know, I want to join in with the Lord's already doing. Then it's not like I'm pushing uphill. Chuck Smith, before that, Blackaby took Chuck's words. Chuck said, catch the wave of what the spirit is doing. And you'll be riding that as opposed, it's a great visual, as opposed to forcing it. So method evangelism, put cue cards in front of us. And you know, here I was as a young guy, if you didn't memorize that,
00:06:57
Speaker
What do you do? You're like, oh, point three. I don't remember. You know what? Can I call you next week? You don't have that opportunity. You know what I mean? The other night I'm at a gas station sharing the gospel with a girl. I can't be like, sorry, I don't know point three. Could you find someone in your town? I'm getting on a flight. I'm out of here going back to Canada. I won't see you again probably ever. So you have to just trust that the Holy Spirit's leading in that scenario. God said clearly, you know what? Pay for her gas because she ran out of gas.
00:07:27
Speaker
And I felt like the Lord was like pay for her gas and tell her it's from the Lord and then start a conversation. And she got teared up and we shared the gospel with her. It was just great. You know what I mean? But it's natural in the supernatural. I tell people rather than thinking it's gotta be some method. I think the other thing as well, I love the whole natural supernatural idea. I think the other thing as well, I think I found as a younger kind of Christian who got sucked into like you into the method stuff is the method stuff can work well. So the person you're talking to goes off script. That was what I found.
00:07:56
Speaker
I say A, you say B, I say D, C. You're saying Z. Well, no, hang on. Hang on. No, you're supposed to. That's not in my script. That's not in my script, boy. You're not allowed to do that. Rather than, as you say, approaching it, saying, OK, where is the Lord working in this? So the disciples get filled with the Spirit, go out and speak the word of God with boldness is the key word. And when that happens, stuff happens. What the enemy tries to do is take out
00:08:38
Speaker
the spirit well you know everybody here has a different plan for getting in the spirit I gotta have like you know cup of tea this is for you England if there's someone listening you got a cup of tea I'm sure it's the same in Scotland isn't it Oh definitely Scottish tea some whiskey with some okay I'll leave that alone but
00:08:42
Speaker
parts of those equations.
00:08:55
Speaker
You got to have some tea, you know, throw some worship on. Find what it is that works for you to get where you're walking out of the door for the day, ready and on mission. And when you do that, God just brings these little surprises. The other night was really tired. I spoke on a Tuesday night. Can I share this? Is this all right? You absolutely can. And I have done it later. Okay. Not now,
How to Talk About Faith in Daily Life
00:09:16
Speaker
Joel. Not on the pocket. Yeah.
00:09:17
Speaker
So I was like really wiped and I'm like, Lord, I'm so tired, I just need some food. So I run around the corner, there's this pub called Master's Pub or something, and I go in, I go, hey, can I get some fish and chips? She goes, I'm sorry, we're closing right now. The kitchen's just closing down. And I said, okay, well, I'll sit. So I sat down, there's two waitresses, there's a lady behind the counter cleaning dishes like you do in every movie when you're a bartender,
00:09:44
Speaker
and you know with the towel in the glass thing and there's a guy on the end who's 72 years old who's a regular in the place and I'm sitting there and we just I just start talking with them and I'm like yeah well I've lift up Jesus so start sharing about Jesus get in this great conversation this girl's a Buddhist all of a sudden we're into that she even knows that the prophecies of Buddha didn't work and we're going through that I'm like wow
00:10:10
Speaker
400 prophecies with Jesus, you know, and they're all fulfilled. And the guy at the end of the bar, he brings up something. But again, as you grow in confidence, you open your mouth, you start sharing, God's going to start bringing these things and you'll find that he'll equip you and you can just trust, he'll guide the conversation. And it's also not a bad thing sometimes to go, you know what? I don't know the answer to that, but I could find out.
00:10:30
Speaker
Right, and that was one of the things that for me being involved with Student Mission on campuses, we often used to say and to encourage students, what is the worst that could happen? Because often you think, oh my goodness, they're going to like shout me down, they're going to start saying, they're going to do all these kind of like really scary things. It's not the case. But exactly. It's not the case. No, I find often
00:10:51
Speaker
We're way more scared than they are. They don't mind. I mean, for the majority part, and you see a lot of this too. Yeah, you have some that are competent, but for the most part, I think people just engage and get going on it.
00:11:02
Speaker
Yeah, I think as well, actually, it's not just a case of that we're more scared than they are. I think often I've found over the years that our friends and our colleagues are actually almost waiting for us to just to start the conversation. I mean, you know, I had the story of a friend of mine which sort of shared this recently with me that he'd finally, after some years, plucked up the courage to invite one of his co-workers, who was a Muslim, round for dinner. Yeah, yeah. And a fascinating conversation. Firstly, the tragic part was his Muslim colleague co-worker said to him, you know, I've been in this country for 15 years. This is the first time I've been inside a Christian home.
00:11:32
Speaker
Which made my friend feel incredibly guilty. He made him feel more guilty by saying, you know, I figured out you were a Christian and I was hoping we'd have time for conversation because I thought I have so many things I want to ask a Christian. And they've been working together for five years. And so it's all double whammy, really. But at least they were there. And together, it was interesting. Again, you know, he was somebody who was almost sitting there thinking, when's this Christian going to start a conversation? Because there are things I would like to ask. And I think you're right. I think people are more spiritually open in some ways
00:11:56
Speaker
today and they've been for a long time. The church is less equipped than it has been for a long time. And so it's a case of how do we bridge that gap. Yeah, absolutely. For sure.
Observations on Humor in Evangelism
00:12:06
Speaker
So obviously you're a Canadian, allegedly. Yeah, proudly. I was in Canada for six years and so I loved it. We still miss you. I miss you guys too.
00:12:16
Speaker
You know, someone who comes over to the UK quite a bit, are there things that you've seen that are similar, that are different? Because one of the fun things about going to a different culture, I noticed when I went to Canada, the things I observed, the Canadian friends went, oh, and thought about that. Are there things as you come here and minister here that you might say to us as British Christians, hey, you know, just something you might want to think about that I've noticed.
00:12:35
Speaker
You know, it's really funny, but I mean, obviously there's major differences in the culture. But to me, people are people. And one of the things about humor is that it connects. And so the book that I'm writing right now is using humor to connect people to evangelism because the endgame is the same. Humor in itself itself is like, well, what's the point?
00:12:57
Speaker
But when you see that actually this is something that God's given us to connect with each other, to enjoy laughter, but also to reach people and break down walls. So that's all I would say is to me, people, I've found that people respond the same in Mexico to humor as they do in Canada, the States, or in England, because again, this is more my angle, but humor is something that connects us all because we can all laugh and go, I've done that.
00:13:23
Speaker
Oh, how silly is that? Or whatever it is. So people are people. And I think maybe that's a healthy thing. When I'm here, if I was training somebody, like what's a great...
00:13:33
Speaker
because this would be good to talk about, like starter line, right? So like a lot of people are like, what's a good starter line? You know, I never know how to start or bring it up. So this isn't necessarily what I would do. To me, it's maybe a little more natural, but over time, but for people that are starting out, like, or even new Christians, I tell them, look, ask someone if they go to church. Now, I'll get pushback from people in training. They're like, I can never ask them if they go to church. They'd say no, and they'd be like, are you kidding? I can't stand church. To me, I'm like, so what? You're on top.
00:14:02
Speaker
How would you ever get on topic about Christian faith if you didn't bridge that gap? And who cares if they're angry, upset, you're on topic. So for me, it's a great line, obviously with a pastoral background too. It's a fun one to be like, hey, do you go to church? And I'll use that in any country.
00:14:17
Speaker
Actually, it's funny you say that I had a friend of mine in Canada who used that variation of that line, but then threw something in that I thought was absolutely brilliant. I think you told me this one. He asked his neighbour and his neighbour said no. And then what my friend said to him was, well, you know what? Our church, we're trying to make services more accessible to folks like yourself who don't go to church. I'm not sure we're doing that this effectively. Could I pay you $50 to come to church on Sunday? And I'll take you out from here afterwards. And then I want your very honest feedback because I can share it with my church leaders.
00:14:45
Speaker
And his name was like, are you seriously saying you will pay me to come to church and buy me a dinner afterwards to my friend? Yeah, I would. And he did. And it opened up this amazing conversation, actually afterwards. No, you said your friend's broke now. Yeah, he is, because he's tried to put, he's done this entire community. Because he put it in a method, and that's the problem now. He put it in a method now. 2,000 people later. A $50 method, and it's not working out so well.
00:15:05
Speaker
But yeah, again, it's interesting. I do think one of the things with comedy as well, and it fascinates that, you know, you've used that. Joel, one thing I'm increasingly wondering, as Christians, maybe part of what we need to be doing is being doing the unexpected. People think they know what Christians are going to be like. If we just put out a little bit different, you know, funny, more just natural, just people have good conversations, people go, oh, that wasn't what I was expecting. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's kind of where we're going with
00:15:31
Speaker
with this book is humor and evangelism is, look, I can connect with someone. And comedy, a lot of it bases around surprise and unexpected. So the walls come down. And when the walls come down, then people go, oh, you're real. And I think sometimes we're trying to win an argument with people. I know this is different in apologetics. I'm not a full on apologetics person like you guys are.
00:15:56
Speaker
For me, from the world of just evangelism, I would say I've never led anyone to the Lord through arguing. There has to be a heart connection. And when I look in Jesus, let's just talk about, let's speed up on method evangelism one more time. Because I've had literally people saying, this is the best method. This is the best method after I've taught on this at churches. And I asked the point like, tell me what method is exactly the same.
00:16:21
Speaker
in the New Testament. And the bottom line is nobody's been able to refute this because no two people are led to the Lord in the same way in the New Testament. So you've got to ask, why did Jesus in his total wisdom do it that way? I think because, honestly, and I don't want to go so far as say, with the enemies behind method, I think they're good hearts that are going, these are things that worked for me, but I just don't know that we should always mass produce them. What the simplicity is, walk with Jesus and talk with people.
00:16:51
Speaker
And when you pray, pray in expectation and faith that you're going to have opportunities. And like Paul, ask for it to be clear, the mystery of the gospel, ask for it to be bold, and then open your mouth. And when you do that, great stuff happens. Because that's just so, so good. Because I was just thinking about the role of humor in evangelism, in persuasive evangelism.
00:17:12
Speaker
I mean, hanging out with you for a little bit. I keep bumping into you in your workshops. And Andy this week, perpetual puns that kind of just come to this man. That's not humor. That's a lot of grown worthy, but yeah. That's just to rest. So for people like myself, when you're thinking about how humor connects with others and really kind of gives you that opportunity to then talk about these big issues, like you say, you're on topic, it opens up.
Using Humor to Connect in Evangelism
00:17:37
Speaker
What about for those of us who aren't that funny?
00:17:40
Speaker
Okay. You know what? I probably can't say this next part, but I will. Thanks for twisting my rubber arm. Basically, I wrote a book called, Can We Understand Humor? It's like understanding humor, okay, and why it matters to the gospel and apologetics. The premise of the book is what makes something funny, and this is going after truism in the world of comedy that is generally accepted, which is
00:18:04
Speaker
You can't grow or develop comedy. So the premise of my book says, no, that's actually not true as a former comedian. No, this is something you would never say to a magician. You should never try and be a magician because you can't be a magician or a musician. Don't practice. But in the world of comedy, they say that they're like, oh, this is an understandable thing. You can't.
00:18:22
Speaker
grow in comedy. Well, I'm kind of refuting that book and saying, here's what makes something funny. First third of the book, second third, here's how you grow in humor and everyone can to an extent. And we're taking the extent part, right? Like maybe you can develop 30%. And then the last third of the book, why it matters to the gospel. Why does it matter? Because the heart behind it is we want to reach people and it should be whatever avenue
00:18:46
Speaker
Whatever means and and so I'm not giving people another method You know, I just after I got saved running a comedy club I walked into a church service with three of the comedians I led to the Lord sat in the back the pastor got up and They start talking and I looked to the other three guys and I said, oh he just broke the rule of threes and they all went Yeah, he did
00:19:04
Speaker
But so I'm not trying to like, you know, force people to learn to be comedians, but I'm going there's things from the world of comedy that are generally accepted in the comedy world that we could teach people, if you will, just to break down walls, if that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Joel, it's been an absolute privilege hanging out for kind of 20 minutes. So many kind of nuggets.
00:19:25
Speaker
in there and one or two things, we will have to edit out all the complaints. Every time I speak, you wouldn't have it any other way. No, of course not. Thanks mate. Thank you guys, have fun. Safe travels. And until next time.