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With Justin Brierley
70 Plays3 years ago
Today on PEP Talk, we interview the great interviewer himself, Justin Brierley. For years he has hosted discussions with top Christian thinkers and thought leaders from other backgrounds. What has he learned from this, and how has it impacted his personal gospel conversations?
Justin Brierley is an international speaker, author and much-loved host of the podcast Unbelievable? His show on Premier Radio has aired weekly for over 15 years, growing to become a popular podcast and serving as the catalyst for the annual Unbelievable? Evangelism and Apologetics Conference and three seasons of The Big Conversation. He was also the editor of Premier Christianity magazine from 2014-2018. Justin’s love for reaching the skeptic with the Christian faith led him to write Unbelievable? Why, after ten years of talking with atheists, I'm still a Christian (SPCK) in which Justin reflects on conversations he has had with famous atheist and skeptic thinkers including Richard Dawkins and Derren Brown, and why he still finds Christianity to be as true and compelling as ever.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast, the podcast in which we help you think about how you can share your faith in Christ naturally with friends and neighbors and colleagues. I'm Andy Bannister and I'm joined as ever by my effervescent co-host, Christy Mayer from the other end of the country. Christy, how are you doing today? Effervescently well, once more. Thank you, Andy. What are we now, 60 episodes in or something? So it's trying to think of a new adjective, is the challenge, every time. I think we may have used that one a couple of times already.
00:00:41
Speaker
Christie, who have we got on the show today? Who's our guest today?
Guest Introduction: Justin Briley's Enthusiasm
00:00:45
Speaker
Well, we have the wonderful Justin Briley. Justin, hello, welcome. How are you doing this morning? I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for having me on. And I'm sorry it took so long.
00:00:55
Speaker
after being chased for a while and we finally managed to find a date. So yeah, really good to join with you guys. We were saying it's going to be great. It's great to have you on the show, Justin, because both Christy and I have been on your show, unbelievable on Premiere. So we're looking forward to turning the tables this morning. Well, I'm looking forward to being interviewed. Christy was actually at our last in-person conference as well, which was great as well back in 2019.
00:01:20
Speaker
because we remember those days and we used to do things together. Obviously unbelievable is a connection we all kind of have and that would be a great place to begin the conversation today, Justin.
The 'Unbelievable' Show's History
00:01:35
Speaker
How long has Unbelievable been going for now? Is it 11 years? Oh no, longer believe it or not. It's more like 15 years actually. As a radio show it started the end of 2005 and
00:01:50
Speaker
then it began as a podcast a couple of years in so we were kind of early adopters on the podcast front and only relatively recently have we started doing video stuff as well so that's been in the last three or four years that we've really done done a lot of video as well with the show but yeah it's been it's been a long time you know that we've been doing it there yeah
00:02:09
Speaker
Well, in that kind of time, in all those those years through the different formats, radio and podcast and now doing the video and obviously you've got the big conversations kind of series that spun off. One thing I'm conscious of, you've got this great resource of conversations that you've curated. But there are some I've always thought there are some helpful ways you can use that resource and there are some unhelpful ways. I remember somebody once saying to me that they'd really enjoyed listening to an episode because they'd watch some atheist get beaten up by a Christian. Well, I'm actually sure that's the vision.
00:02:37
Speaker
I suppose my opening question would be how can Christians get the most out of unbelievable? Because it's such a great resource, so many good things there. But evangelistically, what are some thoughts that you might have on how we can make the most of that resource that you and Premier have created?
Purpose of 'Unbelievable': Dialogue Over Dogfights
00:02:54
Speaker
Well, as you say, hopefully it's not just to watch a kind of dog fight and see the other person get trounced that you don't like. It's meant to be much more, and I think this is the way most people do engage it, is a way of understanding, learning how to dialogue, how to listen.
00:03:10
Speaker
how to respond how to have fruitful conversations and the fact is you know in the many years we've been doing it there probably been some not very helpful examples of that on the show some unfruitful conversations but even those can be a learning tool you know because you'll you'll sort of pick up actually what didn't go well and then you'll kind of learn from people who do it really well i mean both of you guys are were excellent examples when you've been on the show of how to do a great
00:03:33
Speaker
fruitful conversation with someone who takes a different perspective on from you on something and i personally have learned so much in the process of just sitting down listening to people have those conversations and partly it is about the confidence that it breeds as well i think i think so many people because they never do those kinds of conversations
00:03:54
Speaker
they shy away from ever having conversations because they think, oh, I won't know what to say. But actually just listening to people doing it kind of helps you to understand how to do it yourself. So I think that's the big value of it. It's helping breed, if you like, good conversations between Christians and non-Christians.
00:04:17
Speaker
That's so wonderful to hear, Justin. I mean, it's just such a wealth and the unbelievable episodes. Thank you so much. There's such a gift to us all. And actually, Andy and I were joking beforehand who the worst guess was that you might have entertained on the show. So thanks for putting up with us.
00:04:34
Speaker
I suppose because you've had such wonderful interactions with so many people, you've come across so many ways of articulating the Christian faith and helpful ways and unhelpful ways, as Andy mentioned. What have been some of the most compelling ways into the gospel that you've come across that maybe you've just stolen and used in your own conversations with friends and others?
Combining Intellectual and Emotional Engagement
00:04:59
Speaker
For me, I think that sometimes there's just a magic combination of things that make for a really engaging discussion. So obviously, it's great when you've got the intellectual firepower of a great apologist or thinker, okay, and you can kind of make the
00:05:17
Speaker
the rational intellectual arguments for some aspect of Christianity or belief in God and so on. But when that's married with someone who's genuinely interested, genuinely engaged, and genuinely wants to get to the heart of something, not just to the intellectual issues, but to maybe the emotional heart of something,
00:05:38
Speaker
and start to have that kind of level of a conversation alongside the intellectual one. That's when, you know, you just feel things like go to a different level. So a good example of that, you know, one of our all our favorite apologists, I'm sure John Lennox, you know, is just such a wonderful person in terms of being able to bring that academic kind of, you know, intellectual side of things. But he's always, you know, I know, John, and he always wants to get to that point where you're having a genuine
00:06:08
Speaker
heart to heart, you know, and, and that won't always happen depending on the person you've got opposite you. But I have seen it happen a few times with John on my show like
00:06:17
Speaker
did amazing that one of our big conversations out in the US back end of 2019 was with Dave Rubin who's a well-known kind of talk show host and YouTuber out there and it was interesting because even though it was on stage and in a very public you know sort of thing it just went to a different level than these things normally go to because they talked about the intellectual issues but John were just very gently and persuasively kind of pressed in on
00:06:46
Speaker
where Dave was at in terms of his own beliefs, faith, background, culture. And it was just a beautiful sort of example of how to kind of, yes, deal with the intellectual issues, but sort of move beyond those and be willing, you know, to take the risk of sort of asking the personal question and
00:07:06
Speaker
and that kind of thing.
Focusing Conversations on Jesus
00:07:08
Speaker
So yeah, that's where I think you have potentially a really great conversation on your hands is when you kind of go beyond just the intellectual stuff.
00:07:18
Speaker
Well, in terms of kind of conversations, Justin, obviously most people, you know, listening to this who are aware of you or having very much their mind, there's Justin behind the mic, you know, emceeing, refereeing, if you want to describe some of those conversations. But also, I also, one of the things I've appreciated about, you know, at the time I've known you, I also know that obviously you're very passionate about the gospel, kind of yourself, unbelievable, and sense represents your heart in that, in that sense. So how
00:07:43
Speaker
How do you then go about those conversations evangelistically on your own kind of context with neighbors, with friends, that kind of stuff? Because clearly, I suppose you don't, you know, your next door neighbor, you don't sort of, you know, set up two chairs and go, let's have a debate across the back. Style. So so when you're engaging the more personal evangelism in a kind of everyday context, what are some of the things that you found helpful? What are the kind of ways that you go about about that?
00:08:07
Speaker
Well, the first thing I say is, have you heard of the ontological argument? No, I don't really know. I was making my catch up line when I first met my wife, actually. We are 23 years of marriage later, so can't go wrong with the ontological argument. I mean, I mean, genuinely, obviously, sometimes, you know, some of the interaction to have are with people who
00:08:30
Speaker
have come to me or come across my path because they've come across the show and so sometimes there is a sort of a beginning that is at that intellectual level because they've maybe got some question about Christianity or whatever and so I field a lot of emails you know each week that come in from atheist and agnostics and where you know they just want to ask something and I'm fine to do that I don't mind kind of engaging in that but I do want to move it on at some point beyond those kind of what can become kind of sterile you know well trod
00:08:57
Speaker
arguments. And definitely in the personal interactions, the place I would tend to want to always move the conversation in is away from the kind of abstract issues to the person of Jesus, you know, that's always where I kind of want to land up. And so, you know, frequently, you know, some of the things have come up in the past year in conversations has been, you know, where is God in all of this suffering and Coronavirus and
00:09:22
Speaker
And again, you know, you could do go down the sort of, here's a great theodicy to think through this or whatever. But I tend to just in the end, sort of shortcut that and say, it's a, it's a mystery. I'm not going to be able to give you any great answer on that. But I do know that Jesus knows exactly what this is like. Um, I believe in a God who came to experience our life, who lived through suffering pain, but who in a miraculous way,
00:09:51
Speaker
transformed it and redeemed it. And, you know, obviously doing that hopefully in a way that's appropriate for the person I'm speaking to, but kind of giving a sense of what's at the very core of what I believe and not just the kind of philosophical debates, but to say at the center of this, if there's anything I want to give you, it's this person, Jesus Christ, and the way that he transforms the way I see the world and the suffering that we all will experience in that.
00:10:18
Speaker
Yeah, so that's kind of where I would always kind of be trying to bring things, land things, if you like. And that's even in the kind of more intellectual debates I've been part of. It's always been my feeling like I wouldn't want to leave a debate, having not mentioned Jesus sort of thing. If it's all just been abstract God notions, then I feel like I never really got to the core of what I actually believe. So for me, that's pretty key.
00:10:45
Speaker
One very quick follow-up question before I think Christy's in, probably got something she wants to sort of press into. Justin, what would you say to somebody who says, you know, this is all very well for you, kind of, Justin.
Encouraging Everyday Evangelism
00:10:56
Speaker
You spent 15 years thinking about these things. You've engaged all the arguments. You spent all of your time missed.
00:11:02
Speaker
And the same would go for Christian life. It might go, you know, you three in this conversation, you're professionals, you know, but I'm just an everyday Christian and I've just backed off time to hold my job down. I don't have time to read and immerse myself in everything. So I can't possibly talk to my friends about Christ because I don't have the expertise.
00:11:21
Speaker
What would you say that, is there anything you would say that perhaps encourage somebody to, you know, with what they can do to be leaning in more to evangelism? Because I don't think you would assume that evangelism is just for professionals, right? No, far from it. And to be honest, I've seen far more effective results from non-professionals and from professionals, you know, in all honesty, sometimes, because the problem with the professionalization of evangelism and apologetics
00:11:47
Speaker
is that it can become almost quite insular and quite sort of rarefied in the way it happens and you never sometimes you never end up talking to normal people because of that everyday people or you almost lose the ability sometimes to talk to normal everyday people and so from that point of view I actually think the problem sometimes with you know people tuning into
00:12:12
Speaker
podcast like Unbelievable or whatever, where maybe we're doing things at a certain level is people think that's the level that a conversation is always going to have to be at. But the reality is, of course, no, it's very rarely is it going to be, you know, your Richard Dawkins and your Tim Keller kind of, you know, chatting over the garden fence.
00:12:27
Speaker
So it's about sort of maybe trying to find the principles and just to engage those in those conversations. But really, the key thing is rather than rocking up with all the answers, which none of us will have inevitably, just simply listening to what the person has to say. I mean, you guys know this, of course, but it's about genuinely helping that person to
00:12:51
Speaker
feel that they're being listened to. And whatever your answers may be or your suggestions, making sure that it is a conversation that kind of has a, you know, leaves open an opportunity to keep it going, you know, and that may be that you point them in a direction of a resource or something that might be helpful along the way.
00:13:10
Speaker
But I don't think, I think people are less interested ultimately in having some kind of great packaged answer and much more interested in feeling like they're having a genuine conversation with someone. And if you say, well, I don't really know, I'd have to think about that. That's fine. You know, that's normal. That's human.
00:13:32
Speaker
I, even when I'm talking, you know, with atheists on podcasts, you know, when we're doing discussions, I'm quite happy to say, hmm, don't know, not sure about that one, haven't really worked that one through entirely. And that's, you know, I don't feel ashamed saying that. Because otherwise, you know, you set up this false idea that you sort of have to be some know-it-all in order to be an evangelist. But, and, you know, it goes without saying that
00:13:58
Speaker
so much is about the way we say it and the the heart that someone you know people are reading us not just the things we say but our attitude the way we're bringing ourselves across everything like that the persuasiveness of evangelism is is only in a sense in a small part the actual things we say and the arguments we bring it's it's much more about
00:14:20
Speaker
whether people feel like they would want to be you, essentially, would I want to be this person if this is what Christianity looks like, essentially, is half of what people I think are reading in a kind of conversation or an engagement. And that makes, for me, a huge difference. And actually, I've known some great apologists or thinkers, let's say, who haven't don't really know how to do the other bit, which is the
00:14:44
Speaker
the personal intuitive bit. And some people who don't have all the intellectual answers have that in buckets, actually. And God can use them in great ways because of it. That's such an encouragement to us, Justin, that our lives make our words speak much more loudly, don't they? I've seen that a lot too. I was just wondering about your lovely wife, Lucy. She's a minister of a church in Surrey, isn't she? That's right.
00:15:14
Speaker
And what does this look like for you as a team and through the local church? How do you go about evangelism and apologetics? Do you have any ideas for us that we could take away? Yeah, well, I mean, there's this thing obviously that on the personal side, there's the kind of one to one conversations and interactions that we have.
00:15:32
Speaker
as a church, you know, we try to sort of regularly in our teaching and preaching series, you know, come around to specifically evangelism or some form of sort of practical apologetics, we, we did last year, a sort of big question series, so specifically getting people to send in their questions, and Lucy and I will try and respond to them and do it in a kind of tag team sort of preaching way, and just get people thinking through those issues and how they would
00:15:58
Speaker
you know, respond to themselves with friends. So I think there's that important element of just modeling it from the front and being willing to sort of open up dialogue and discussion and just make sure that you are talking about, you know, almost the treating it as a natural expectation that you will have conversations with people. You will see, you know, that's part of the normal Christian life, if you like.
00:16:20
Speaker
Obviously, coronavirus has massively changed the dynamic of what that looks like for most people, so that's been a key challenge in the last year. But interestingly, on the online side, loads of conversations have opened up that just wouldn't have been there because we've been forced to do everything online and suddenly we've had quite a lot of new people
00:16:40
Speaker
coming to the church digitally and remotely, and a lot of them very much on the fringes of belief and so on, but finding something interesting. And that's been great to be able to sort of start to message people and have some of those conversations there. And again, it's about obviously not being pushy or trying to kind of immediately get someone signed up to an alpha course or something like that, but about just trying to kind of engage naturally with where they're at.
00:17:09
Speaker
if possible, find
Digital Shifts in Evangelism During COVID-19
00:17:10
Speaker
an opportunity to, to have an actual, you know, well, face to face, but you know, I mean, a kind of, you know, something where you actually do get to talk to them, at least rather than just be Facebook messages or whatever. And that's, that's been great. It's been been a great opportunity, I think, to see, see some really interesting conversation start up with people.
00:17:30
Speaker
And yeah, it's as simple as really, again, doing what I said, listening to where they're at, what their issues are, and just loving them and trying to answer their questions where you can. But yeah, I suppose just being willing to put yourself out there and not sort of duck those opportunities when they present themselves.
00:17:52
Speaker
I just obviously, as well as the presenter of Unbelievable and Big Questions, all this stuff, you've written one book, Unbelievable, but I also know that you're working on another book that's actually quite intriguing.
Decline of New Atheism and New Cultural Dialogues
00:18:05
Speaker
We were chatting before we started the record button. Tell us a little bit about the new writing project and why particularly you think it's exciting.
00:18:14
Speaker
Yeah, so I don't know if you guys have been aware of this. I'm sure you have Richard Dawkins story recently. And he, you know, the preeminent face of the new atheism and so on, has recently been stripped of his American Humanist Association Humanist of the Year award that he received back in 1996, apparently. And it's because of some tweeting that he'd done around the issue of transgender.
00:18:39
Speaker
And it was just one example of the way in which I think in the, you know, over the last few years, we've seen an implosion of what was the new atheism. Basically, you know, lots of people in the mid 2000s agreed that God was ever so silly idea and we should replace it with science and reason.
00:19:00
Speaker
And that seemed to gain a lot of steam and best-selling books were published and lots of blogs were launched and conferences and everything else. And then it all started to unwind and fall apart. And I just have noticed that phenomenon, the way that, in my opinion, new atheism has kind of imploded and
00:19:20
Speaker
is very much an old thing now. A whole new conversation has begun in its place and it's been, again, it's in the secular sphere, but it's an interesting bunch of thinkers who are willing to reassess the value of Christianity again rather than throwing it out as Dawkins and Hitchens and arguably Harris and others had done in the past. And that would include
00:19:43
Speaker
obviously, phenomenons like Jordan Peterson, but it would be, you know, Douglas Murray and Tom Holland and even as I mentioned, people like Dave Rubin and, and other people who are kind of suddenly having interesting conversations about what do we do with life without a guiding narrative without a story to live by living in a very postmodern I make my own
00:20:03
Speaker
identity, way in life and everything else. And we've seen the way that that has blown up in terms of the culture wars and in terms of everything else going on around that. But I think sometimes it's helpful to have something which helps the church to kind of look at what's happening in the culture and sort of trace its particular path and maybe what questions it raises, what answers the church may have, what opportunities it presents, if we believe that God is
00:20:32
Speaker
were moving in the background and working through it all. So that's what the book will be really. It's about you know, how the new atheism got old and the new conversation that's beginning in the in culture around Christianity and faith. So yeah, I'm excited. I think I think it'd be you know, challenging one because it's a big, it's a big kind of meaty, complex topic to take on. But it does tie into a lot of what I've been sort of interviewing and discussing with people on the show in the last several years. So yeah,
Secular Voices in Christian Evangelism
00:21:03
Speaker
I think what's so helpful as well for Christians, right, to be aware of the fact there are these voices in culture who can actually be surprisingly helpful in evangelism, right? I mean, Tom Holland, you...
00:21:14
Speaker
you mentioned there, Tom's book Dominion. I mean, I have found that so useful for dropping into conversations with friends, you know, to say that there are people who don't share my Christian convictions, but who are nevertheless saying some things that I think are worth noting. And I was again, saying to you before the show began, my, you know, my wife is in the middle of a very interesting, long, long, long term conversation.
00:21:38
Speaker
with a friend in our neighbourhood, and that was sparked by Douglas Murray's book, The Madness of Crowds. And of course, Douglas is an atheist and gay and doesn't believe that Christianity is true, I think, but he does obviously think there's much in Christianity that's very helpful and laudable and even quite noble, actually, I think at times.
00:21:57
Speaker
and that book has sparked a whole conversation. So I think in a way it's about sort of identifying often the prophets outside the church, you know, that are nevertheless being used in interesting ways by God. I mean, Tom Holland, and I know this podcast will probably go out after our conference has happened, the Unbelievable Conference, but due to be with us at that conference, now not a, as you say, not
00:22:24
Speaker
conventionally, a kind of Evangelical Christian by any stretch. But because he's got such interesting things to say, I wanted to have him there and have a conversation as he'll be having with with NT Wright at the conference. Interesting, though, Tom Holland, and this went out in a recent unbelievable show, has gone on quite a major journey, actually, when it comes to his own personal engagement with Christianity and
00:22:49
Speaker
To all intents and purposes, I think he's happy now to describe him pretty much as a Christian. Now, he'll happily say, I have major moments of doubt and sometimes it all seems crazy and other times it all seems to make sense. But he's actually one of those people actually who I think is happy now to say, look,
00:23:08
Speaker
I identify far more as a Christian than there's anything else. And so he's been on a very interesting journey. And I think it's just fascinating to see some of those currents going on in the culture. Now, that's just one person, but very significant person, someone who, you know,
00:23:26
Speaker
people take seriously in the secular world and doesn't you know doesn't just exist in our camp if you like and I think as you see more and more of those names where they seem to be sort of straddling you know the the two camps it's just it's just generating some really interesting opportunities and I've seen it had so many people now bumped into Unbelievable
00:23:46
Speaker
because, for example, we had Jordan Peterson on a few years ago, and suddenly a wave of the fans, you know, Jordan Peterson fans came in and they're all kind of so interested and reimagining, you know, having, you know, heard Christianity is a fairy tale from Dawkins, suddenly, someone's sort of saying, actually, maybe there's something in this. And, and I think those conversations are going on, you know, not just just in these sort of the bloggers fear and everywhere, but actually,
00:24:14
Speaker
in our local area, I constantly meet people who are starting to talk about these things because especially Jordan Peterson has kind of blown that kind of whole conversation open in a really interesting way. So yeah, it's exciting times. Well, we really look forward to reading.
Writing Challenges and Book Release Excitement
00:24:33
Speaker
I think I really look forward to actually seeing what your thoughts are on that, Justin, as to what accounts for that shift between the new atheism to this.
00:24:40
Speaker
this openness. So we would look forward to that because the book is coming out September 2022. That's the plan. That's the plan. I mean, you know how these things are. There's a lot of lot needs to be done between now and then like actually writing it. But that's that's the plan. Yeah, that's the the general look of it things. So yeah, I'm excited. It's been it's been a good while since the last one came out. So I figured, hey, maybe time to
00:25:06
Speaker
to get back to the keyboard and write something. And as somebody once said, the most exciting times in an author's life are when the book contract is signed and the book is published and everything in between is just sheer stress. Good. Well, I'll come to you for some advice on that, Andy, all right? You're a writing machine when you get to it. I know what you're like. I need to do something like you do. When I get to it. I love deadlines. I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by.
00:25:36
Speaker
Justin, thank you again so much for joining us today. It's been an utter pleasure chatting with you. Again, I feel like we could just keep going for hours, so thank you so much, brother. I think that brings us to the end of another episode of Pep Talk. Andy, it's been a joy, and we'll be back in a couple of weeks, won't we, with our next guest? We will indeed. So to all of you, wherever you are, thanks for listening and goodbye. Bye.
00:26:04
Speaker
I hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. This is a listener supported podcast. We can only make it with the support of our friends across the country and around the world. And if you'd like to be a part of that community, simply visit the website, thepeptalkpodcast.com.
00:26:20
Speaker
and click on the Support the Podcast button. If you sign up to support Solas and the podcast for as little as three pound a month as a thank you, we will send you a free copy of my book, The Atheists Didn't Exist, or if you prefer, Christie's book, More Truth as a thank you. And through your support, we can keep making more podcasts like this one.