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Andrea Yates
673 Plays8 months ago
This week on the Mothers of all Crime the topic is the tragic tale of Andrea Yates. Andrea was valedictorian of her high school class, a nurse, a wife, a mother to 5 beautiful children and a devout Christian. In many estimations she had it all. Unfortunately she also had severe mental health struggles. These mental health issues seemed to be exacerbated by each birth and post partum period. Mrs. Yates became a shell of herself and was hospitalized several times due to suicide attempts. There were brief periods of success while heavily medicated. Due to several factors (religion, wanting to conceive, noncompliance with drugs, delusional thinking) Andrea was slipping further into madness. She was under strict direction of her doctors to never be alone and certainly not to be alone with her kids. However, her NASA engineer husband chose to start leaving Andrea with the children for 1 hour each morning. This seemed to be going ok for a couple of weeks until one day Rusty Yates received a call that would shatter his entire world. Andrea had been alone with their 5 children for less than an hour when she told her husband to come home. He arrived on a truly horrific scene. Andrea had drowned all of the children. Rusty lost his children and essentially his wife that day. She would never be free again. We discuss the two trials of Andrea Yates and our feelings on the Texas judicial system. This is a truly heartbreaking case that allowed us to discuss topics from religion, motherhood, mental health, family support and many more. What do you think would be a fair "punishment" for such a mentally ill person who has done something so terrible?
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May contain explicit language and unfounded accusations.
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Transcript
Introduction to Andrea Yates Case
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Mothers of All Crime. This is a podcast where we deep dive into mothers involved in infamous crimes and scandals. I'm Monica and this is Crystal.
00:00:37
Speaker
This week on the Mothers of All Crime, we're going to be talking about Andrea Yates. Andrea was born, she was born Andrea Pia Kennedy, July 3rd, 1964 in Texas. And we're just gonna talk a little bit about her early life and marriage. um She was a very intelligent kid and she was valedictorian of her high school class. um There were some rumors and some there have been some statements later that she had some mental struggles. She was always very shy. She had some issues with bulimia and had
00:01:23
Speaker
you know, express some thoughts about depression, suicidality as a teenager. um But it wasn't debilitating by any means. And she went to college and became a nurse. Seemed she did really well academically. So definitely an intelligent person. Yeah, no, she was super smart. And listen, said I give anyone who could become a nurse credit because that is just verbiage that goes over so many people's heads and you have to know where all these things connect. Like you said, she was valedictorian. And I think if you look at her in the early years as like a snapshot, she was captain of the swim team. She was an honor society. She could have been appeared as like a very like well liked person kind of popular, but like shy at the same time. So it's interesting.
00:02:18
Speaker
as time went on, like the mentions of some mental health struggles and bulimia kind of going with the image of like what everybody else thinks of her. um I think it just foreshadows. We obviously know what happens, but I think it foreshadows a lot of things coming up. And those were never addressed as a child. It was just part of her life. Yes. I mean, it seems that, so I read, um I read a book written by a journalist who covered the Andrea Yates case. And I read it years ago and I reread it um in preparation for this. It's called Are You There Alone? by Susanne O'Malley. And in that, Rusty, her husband eventually was interviewed many times. And he had said that in Andrea's family, you weren't allowed to have any needs.
00:03:10
Speaker
and no one was able to express their needs or concerns to each other. They don't talk about anything. it was a very They grew up in a very religious home, a Catholic family where things were kept very close to the chest. Nobody had any problems and we don't talk about anything. That's just the way that Andrea was raised, essentially. And I do think it's important and she was like a first generation immigrant too, where I don't think that's super abnormal in those kinds of families because but and I love the fact that the United States is very mental health supportive, but that's not the norm in the world where I don't think it's abnormal for her parents grew up the listen, you keep it inside yourself if you just pretend it's not there, it's not there. And yeah, you tough it out. I think her being taught that was just them
00:04:02
Speaker
that's how they were raised and how their family raised. So was it wasn't like intentionally putting her down, but it was very normal in the culture I think she grew up in. Yeah. I mean, she was the youngest of five kids and her mother is a German immigrant and had married her father when he was in the military overseas in Germany. And I think that she brought a lot of her, her culture with her and she had converted to Catholicism when she married Andrea's father. And I think a lot of times converts are more religious and take the rules very seriously because they're coming to them as an adult. um So I think that there was just, you know, there was a culture in the way that she was raised. And I think being the youngest of five kids, you maybe are lost in the sauce a little bit. There's a lot of kids.
00:04:56
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. And I think she was very comfortable with religion. And it was raised that way, which is where her soon to be husband who was also very religious made it very easy for them to kind of come together.
Andrea's Early Life and Influences
00:05:12
Speaker
Yes, he so she met So Andrea Kennedy met Rusty Yates at a swimming pool in the apartment complex that they lived in. um he is an He was a NASA engineer, which is also very impressive. And he basically instantly loved Andrea, thought she was beautiful, thought she was amazing. He introduced her to his you religious mentors and
00:05:41
Speaker
who are pretty extreme, devout, evangelical Christians. That's who they're called the war neckies. That's their last name. They, you know, they travel full time in ah RVs and they spread the word. And Rusty had met them while they were preaching on a college campus. And he became very involved in that religion and but was born again as a Christian. And he believed in many things that are pretty extreme to me. But one of them is that you should have as many children as God allows you to. And that's a pretty common belief in that circle. And and I think that also resonated with her like most old school Catholics don't believe in birth control anyway, she was one of many children. So I think it was easy for her to
00:06:35
Speaker
She already had a very like deep religious understanding and him being more extreme was a very like, it was an easier step than for someone who didn't grow up the way she did. I agree with that. I think she had the basis, she had the knowledge, but she just hadn't had the passion and the fervor for it that Rusty had. And she saw it through his eyes and really embraced his faith and was much more serious about it eventually than he was. um I do want to mention though that she felt a lot of guilt when they were living together before getting married. And I think that that is kind of interesting that they did that. I was shocked on that. Absolutely shocked.
00:07:16
Speaker
Yeah, it was kind of a big point of contention and she was on the birth control pill while they lived together premaritally. Also very surprising to me because it was like I would assume that they would have just from their religious standpoints like rushed into getting married got married quickly and immediately were like okay we gotta have babies now. was my original thought. And then learning that they did those things like it just seemed very contradictory to me. Yeah, I mean, they knew each other for like almost four years by the time they actually got married. And he didn't propose like it was over three years from the time they met before he proposed because they got married within a year of him proposing. So it to me, that's not a crazy timeline. But I think for
00:08:10
Speaker
very religious people in Texas, that seems a bit drawn out. Seems pretty too long. Right. I think it's the religious thing and also like the timing of things and us waiting three years, I think in this day and age is so normal versus our parents' age and grandparents' age because she's 60 now. Right. that that was a long time. I don't think yeah, like looking back, like my grandparents in the early 70s, they definitely dated for less than that, and then got married. Versus like, now I can't even imagine getting married in a year after meeting someone that seems wild. It does seem wild. It seems really fast. I know people still do it. But I think that in 1993, it
00:08:59
Speaker
was less common to live together before marriage. It was less common to have long courtships in their religions. So I just think it's interesting that they went that route, but I don't think Rusty was in a huge rush. um Andrea was though, and she felt a lot of guilt and shame about them living together in sin. But shocking, the woman's the one who feels guilt about the shame and the sex. I know. Yeah. For sure. I mean, and I feel like she was kind of pressured into moving in with him. I don't know that that was her preference. She had another significant relationship prior to Rusty that's mentioned in the book. And they broke up because she didn't want to have premarital sex when she was like 23 or 24. I think that she
00:09:49
Speaker
kind of gave in with Rusty, lack of a better words maybe. um Because I do think she wanted to be with him. I just don't think that he really like respected the premarital sex rule as much as he seems to love other rules in their religion. And he made like, he made it clear that that was not really an option by wanting to live together before getting married, that they weren't waiting until marriage. Yeah. He, um, I have some theories on him that I'm going to bring up later, but he definitely was the leader of the house. He definitely was the guy where it's my way or the highway. And I think she really did love him and just looked at it like I need to submit to my future husband kind of at the moment where she wanted it to happen. And the only way that it was going to was to follow his instructions.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yes, that's very true because in their evangelical religion, women are not just submissive as wives, they are submissive health helpmates in general. Like women in general are supposed to be constantly just doing things for the benefit of men, which is, you know, I guess for Rusty which sounds pretty good. But yeah, I don't know how well that was working out for anda ah Andrea in the beginning. because she was just submitting to whatever he wanted. And that came up in a lot of different instances because they were, when they first were married, they were, um they had bought, well, Rusty had bought a four bedroom home and then they ended up selling that and moving into a little camper van. And they did that kind of on and off living in trailers, living in camper vans, living in an RV, living in a motor home until,
00:11:42
Speaker
I mean, they did that for a while they had that with up to they had so they had their first baby within a year of them getting married, they got married, she went off the birth control pill, got pregnant right away, had their first child right away. And so that was Noah. And then they were, they had up to four children, they had their fourth kid Luke, and they were still living in that tiny little trailer home. And when you look at the descriptions of where they lived, it was like a two bedroom, teeny tiny cramped space where she just has all of these kids and they're all so young because they were all born back to back. So she just has like four babies living in a teeny tiny little place together. And
00:12:33
Speaker
she had immediately quit her job when she had Noah, the first kid, she worked up until a couple of days before having him. And then she never went back to work because her new thing was that she was going to be a full time mom, a full time wife, that she was going to homeschool the kids that they were going to be brought up in this very religious, very devout environment. And like again,
Mental Health Struggles
00:12:55
Speaker
I was very on track and on track with what their beliefs were. So listen, to each his own, being Being a home stay-at-home mom with five children, that is a full-time job, let's be honest here, particularly five children under the age of eight. Like yeah holy cow. i don't You can't work and do that at the same time. Like reality, unless you're hiring help and the amount of money that it would have, it would have been her whole salary to put these kids into any kind of care anyway. So, but you know, there was no way he was going to be the one staying at home. so
00:13:32
Speaker
time to submit. That certainly was not an option. um So they, so it was going okay, up until the point of Luke, the fourth child being born. um There was there were always problems, mental health problems that Andrea was having, but they were manageable, managed, ignored, whatever you want to say, up until Luke was born. And she started having Noah, John, Paul, and then Luke. All back to back. Very biblical. All very biblical names. I actually really like them, but they're very biblical. You don't hear a lot of Pauls. Yeah, I don't know. I like all these names, but they are very biblical, you know, disciples of Jesus kind of names, which makes sense. You know, we know where they were getting their inspiration. And I think that, you know,
00:14:33
Speaker
One of the things that Andrea would do when she was having like a depressive episode is she would obsessively read the Bible. So I think that these were names that she was coming across a lot. um So she had had depressive episodes, but she never had nervous breakdowns or suicide attempts until after Luke was born. She tried two different times to kill herself within like a couple of weeks of each other. of that. So I think, sorry, I'm just looking at my timeline here. The se time ah so suicide were with pills too. She tried to O.D. and ended up being hospitalized for each attempt, um and then prescribed antidepressants, which were supposedly supposed to help.
00:15:24
Speaker
Right. So she, yeah, okay. So I'm looking at it now. And so she overdosed on pills, was hospitalized. She was prescribed antidepressants. She was released. And within a day of that release from the hospital, she was trying to cut her own throat and was yeah begging Rusty to let her die and to just like look away and you know, whatever. So she was doing this in front of him, was hospitalized again. And that's when she was first started on antipsychotics. And Haldol is a very important medication that comes up many, many times in this um in this case because she did improve so drastically and so quickly after starting the Haldol that it was kind of looked at as like a miracle drug. And she was doing a lot better and she was very cognizant. um So she
00:16:18
Speaker
seemed to have a massive improvement. She's stable on that. But she was not very compliant with taking medication in general. So one of the benefits of Haldol is that it can be injected. And so that is something that can be really controlled through a position, she would have to go to the office every three weeks and get a shot, which worked a lot better for her because while she was in the hospital, and while she was home, The doctors, Rusty, they would try to give her medication and she would cheek it. She would put it under her tongue. She would throw it up. She would spit it out. She would say that she took it when she didn't take it. She was taking half doses of medications. So it was easier for compliance sake to have it be in an injectable form.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah. And that's not uncommon for people who end up being diagnosed with some kind of psychosis where there's so many different reasons, but some of it goes with they start feeling normal again and they feel like they don't need it anymore. So they would just stop taking it, not realizing the entire reason that they feel better is because of the medication. And sometimes people didn't like the way that the side effects affected them or the voices were telling them that it was poison. Like there's so many reasons people don't do it, but it is very, very common. Definitely. um It's super common. And I think that it makes sense because you're not thinking from a logical point of view anyway, like things have already gone awry to the point that you're now needing antipsychotics. And I think that
00:17:56
Speaker
it's It's hard to allow medications to build up to therapeutic doses for people who are struggling with much less severe issues than she was. like Her brain was really working against her and trying to convince her that that she wasn't really sick and that she's just being she's not being submissive and she's not being a good wife and she's not being a good mother and that she's just not living up to what she should be as a Christian woman. So I think that she had convinced herself that medication wasn't the real solution and she just needed to be better, um which is really sad, but I think that's also very common.
00:18:36
Speaker
Yeah, especially in cases of postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis, there's a lot of diagnoses that are thrown around with Andrea Yates. And it's hard to say what a true diagnosis for her should be. I mean, obviously, we don't have access to her full medical records, nor should we. But I'm not sure what kind like what diagnosis I'm comfortable saying that she definitely has, but I think that she demonstrated psychosis and severe depression for sure. like Those are not
00:19:09
Speaker
You can't argue about that. And I think also you got my perspective is from a obviously non-medical side is she probably was being diagnosed with that specific hospitalization because unfortunately she had so many. So she had one ODing on pill. She had one when she held a knife to her throat. A month later, she had a nervous breakdown. And it I think each time she went in, they were just trying to stabilize that circumstance, which is where all of the different diagnosis come out. like It was July of 1999 when she got, quote, officially diagnosed with postpartum psychosis, but previously was on
00:19:55
Speaker
different medications for depression and psychosis and like I think it was just the doctors were trying to consistently just address whatever that moment was. Yeah. And they had a really hard time keeping her in a facility. There were several times that Andrea was discharged earlier than the doctors or her husband were comfortable with, but insurance had run out. They'd hit maximums of how many days you can be hospitalized. So I think that that
00:20:27
Speaker
is a whole other conversation, but it is a contributing factor here because if she had just been able to stay until she was truly stable, as opposed to when the insurance felt like she should have been stable, I do think that that would have been very different. um I don't think that she should have been released until she could have gone a significant amount of time without a suicide attempt. I don't think that It made sense to keep sending her back to the same environment. I mean, after her first attempt, Rusty did go out and buy a
Ignoring Medical Advice
00:21:00
Speaker
house um because he thought that that would help. And it did seem to help temporarily um because they did have more space and everybody wasn't so on top of each other. But otherwise nothing in the situation is really changing. The families are becoming involved and are helping out with the kids and stuff like that while Andrea is hospitalized. Everyone was pretty supportive.
00:21:24
Speaker
I don't know. I think the the support is tough because I have seen a couple things when it comes to her husband. I do think there were some times where it was because of insurance, but I also think a lot of it is after the fact where there's contradictory statements where he's saying, I didn't want to have her discharged. And the doctors are saying, we had conversations and he was bringing her home if we were against our advice. So I think there definitely were circumstances that he was doing his best to help his wife, but I also think there's a lot of gray because the she can't really defend herself because she's quote labeled crazy at this point where he, the same quote person is standing there saying, nope, never said that.
00:22:20
Speaker
I want my wife stable and healthy, but then you have doctors saying, I told you not to have bring her home and you brought her home anyway. so I definitely think that he engages in some magical thinking after the fact, which we can definitely get into. um There was definitely a recommendation that was made clear to him, made clear to Andrea, after all of these things happened, after Luke was born, and Andrea was so, so sick, so, so psychotic, so severely depressed, had multiple suicide attempts, multiple hospitalizations, was a true risk to herself.
00:22:59
Speaker
They were told not to have any more children. And while you're on Howdoll, you shouldn't get pregnant. So she was on birth control while she was on Howdoll. She had stabilized. And her psychiatrist, who is Dr. Starbranch, told them literally, quote, it would guarantee future psychotic depression to have more children. Yeah. Rusty was told that. Andrea was told that. And yet they, so she stopped taking Hal Dahl within a few weeks of her discharge from the hospital and had a baby within 10 months of that. Which is the fifth kid, Mary, the only girl. A little Mary. here Yeah. And that's where I start feeling icky about his involvement. Um, and we can talk about this part after we kind of go through the rest of the case, but
00:23:56
Speaker
That's where I start feeling icky with him specifically. Yeah. Yes, because it does seem like he convinced her that it wasn't a real problem and that this is their religious duty was to continue to have children and if God wanted them to have more children, he would give them more children. And that's what they can handle is whatever God thinks they can handle. It's just, it's hard to wrap my head around. personally, that you could be given such a direction like such a strict instruction like that from a doctor and just completely disregarded and oh it'll be fine. It hasn't been fine. So I don't know why they thought it would be fine. Right. But
00:24:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, she was okay during the pregnancy, though, by all accounts, she was much better. She had she was in a much higher spirit, and she did seem totally fine while she was pregnant. But that is also something that sometimes happens with mental illnesses and with physical illnesses. Sometimes during pregnancy, they go into a remission that happens with lupus, that happens with migraines, it happens with asthma. There's all kinds of things that can, they can get worse while you're pregnant, but for some people they really experience a time of remission. And it changes a lot of things about how your body works and your hormones are so different. And I just think
00:25:24
Speaker
it is not surprising to me that she was in a different place mentally and physically while she was pregnant. But soon after having the baby, it was getting right back to how she had been before. um And on overdrive. Yeah, on overdrive. And I think that it was um much worse after her father passed away. Andrea's father had Alzheimer's. He had dementia. He'd been very, very sick for a long time. um And she had helped nurse him. She had helped her mother take care of him. She had been with him all of the time. One of her overdoses where um were using his sleeping pills in her parents' home. um But when he passed away,
00:26:10
Speaker
She stopped taking the antidepressant she was supposed to be on. She would just walk around with baby Mary in her arms, refusing to feed her, and would just pace with her for hours and hours. And she started becoming nonverbal and catatonic. And she would just sit and stare for hours and hours again. And she would seem to be reacting to stimulus that no one else was aware of. um So she was hospitalized again. um and or yeah yeah And then on top of all that, yeah, she was also mutilating herself. she The one time she did trot like quotelt fit try to feed her baby, she gave her solid, this is a six month old, gave her solid food and the baby almost choked and like there was this whole ordeal. And she again went back to that consistent overdrive of reading the Bible and
00:27:08
Speaker
I think that was kind of that other knowledge of like, hey, she went from reading it normally to obsessively, which was just showing that she's co regressing back into those trying to find comfort somewhere else and stability, and just not being able to. but and That was what, March of 2001, I think when her father passed away? Yeah, March 12th, 2001. yeah um and then May 3 was a pretty significant day in 2001. Andrea filled up the bathtub and was being extremely weird about it. She was not explaining to her mother-in-law who was there, she wasn't explaining to Rusty why she'd filled up the bathtub if she was not going to take a bath.
00:27:55
Speaker
Um, it was like the middle of the day, middle of the day, just filled it up. Wasn't, I love a good afternoon bath. Who does it? But like, but she didn't get in a very out of character too for her. Where they just, she just stood there. but i mean She only ever took showers also. She wasn't a bath person. So I thought that was pretty weird. ah And at that point, um, um, her mother-in-law had. come to Texas because she didn't actually live there. Rusty's mom had come for a visit, had seen how sick Andrea had become and
00:28:34
Speaker
had started staying in the area and was coming over every day while Rusty was at work to watch the kids and watch Andrea because she was not supposed to under doctor's instructions, was not supposed to be alone with the children. So that was going okay for a little while. And then Rusty had decided and announced at a family party that he was going to start having his mother come an hour later in the morning to give Andrea an hour with the kids by herself so that she could increase her independence and feel more confident as a mom and be you know in charge of more parenting things and so that his mother wasn't going to be so exhausted, had a lot of different reasons. um I think another really important one that he also put out there was that he
00:29:28
Speaker
felt that his wife was becoming completely dependent on him and his mother when achieving her um maternal responsibilities. So in a manner of speaking, he basically was saying like she was being a bad mom. She wasn't doing her job. And she was making her husband and his mom do it for her. And I think he had a problem with that. I think he did too. I think that Rusty didn't really I think that he overall was pretty supportive while she was hospitalized. He would come every day. He would get her to eat like she would refuse meals. She would sometimes have 50 calories a day and he would come and he would sit with her for two hours and make her drink and ensure give her a chocolate milk. He would bring the kids. He would drive an hour each way to visit her at the facility every single day. He was giving her medications at home. He was
00:30:26
Speaker
He was trying, but I think that he had become very frustrated with the ongoing drama. um And he was losing sympathy for it. And I think that he felt his mother was doing too much for Andrea, that she was just stepping in and doing everything for her. um And that she was more capable than she was seeming to be, I guess. And if you thought that she could do more. I agree. And I also think that in his family, there seemed to be this perception that like mental health, similar to her family, mental health really isn't something that should stop you. Like you should just get over it. um His brother did an interview that he said that depressed people just need a swift kick in the pants to motivate them and they're fine. Like, yeah, you're clinically depressed.
00:31:20
Speaker
i I wish that was the answer, but not normally what works. You have his mother probably becoming a little resentful. You have him basically fed up. And I think he did a good job presenting as the caring, loving husband. But when it came back to like just in their home, I don't know. It just, as things started coming out, I think he felt like she should have just got over it. I think she was being in his eyes dramatic and didn't want to be a good mom and should have just figured it out and she just couldn't as much as she tried she just couldn't. Absolutely I agree with that and I think that she did a lot of things to just try to please him and I don't think that she was
00:32:16
Speaker
honest about some of the issues that she was having but I think that he also was choosing not to see what he didn't want to see in a very scary detrimental way. I definitely agree with you though that I think his mom was becoming resentful or at least Rusty was resentful on her behalf. yeah Prior to Andrea's father's death her mother had been pretty helpful and involved even though there are issues just like you know any family has issues but she was grieving. She was dealing with a lot. She wasn't as available. And it was all kind of falling on Dora, Rusty's mom. And I don't think that Rusty felt that was fair. And yeah, so yeah, so even her couple the kids for an hour. Yeah, and that was going on for like a couple weeks that he just right on his own against metal goodbyes decided that they were going to start doing this. Yes.
00:33:14
Speaker
And Andrea's mom was horrified at the prospect. Rightfully so, honestly. Yeah. And unfortunately, this is why you're supposed to listen to doctors, particularly psychiatrists. Like if you're gonna ignore any doctor, I don't think that's the one you should ignore personally. I mean, not after multiple hospitalizations and suicide attempts and antipsychotics. Yeah. This is not this is not a minor issue that's happening here. This is like a repetitive, major depression. um
The Tragic Event
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, and this is why we're even talking about her now because what Andrea Yates is famous for is drowning her five children in the bathtub. um So she in 2001. Yeah, she drowned them each individually.
00:34:08
Speaker
um and put four of them in the master bed. And she left Noah, the oldest one in the tub. She called 911 and told them that she had just killed her kids. and But I mean, it took a really long time. I've listened to the call and I've read the transcripts of it. It took a very long time for them to get that information out of her. She just kept saying, I need an officer. I need an officer. I don't need an ambulance. I need an officer. um
00:34:40
Speaker
And then she called Rusty at NASA and told him to come home. And also didn't get him why i just come home. Right. And he she had called once before when he was at work and said that he needed to come home right away. And he had found her having a nervous breakdown. And that was one of her hospitalizations. So, you know, he got the call at work, he left immediately, he came home. And there were cop cars and ambulance. whole lot of people at the house and he wasn't allowed in and was told on the front yard that all five of his kids had passed away. God, how devastating. um I think when it comes to this one, it is interesting how she chose to drown them and arrange them.
00:35:35
Speaker
because she started off with Paul John Luke, who was the middle three, but and took them, put them on the bed, and kind of arranges them very lovingly, like little dolls, I think is the best way for me to describe it. Then Noah just happened, and Mary was also there, but Mary just, she left her there floating in the bathtub while she was arranging the three boys. And her eldest had came in, saw what's happening, and tried to escape, but obviously a seven year old is not going to really succeed in that. um She grabbed him, brought him back into the bathroom, drowned him, put Mary in the arms of her older brother, John, now on the bed, and then left Noah in the bathtub.
00:36:32
Speaker
and I think what's peculiar to that, to me about that is it seems to be the trigger of the moment. So in her brain, and I'm curious with you what you have this tracks with you. So Paul, John and Luke were like the, the three that didn't do anything wrong. And I think. she went after them first and then Mary in her brain was the last which caused a lot of this issues and it caused a lot of the psychosis like being left in that bathtub like blaming her until Noah came in and I think her anger or psychosis turned on him and then that's why he got left like it was the whoever was left was the reason that it like the tipping scale I feel
00:37:27
Speaker
Because not once were any issues with Paul. There was never any mentions that I could find. So she, I think that she had a lot of problems after John's birth and Luke's birth. Not so much with Noah and Paul. With Noah, it seems pretty minimal. But I think that she also had just like way less kids to deal with at that point. She only had the right. Right. um After Paul's birth, she supposedly it was totally fine though and was like in a blissful kind of a state after that. um And then obviously she did have these issues with Mary. I feel like for me, I think that the the reason that she left Noah the way that she did and arranged the other kids is because Noah resisted the most. He fought back the hardest. He made it very difficult. And I think that she just was done at that point and didn't bother.
00:38:23
Speaker
which it I think it's more about him just resisting a lot. And she just like left him. And the other kids were way easier to dominate because they were just not as strong. And so she wasn't drained by doing that necessarily. It's also, to me, it's important to mention she did all of this within about 45 minutes. So, I mean, to drown five kids and arrange them all and call it like, it it just seems like she was doing this pretty fast. And I mean, she definitely could have put Noah in the bed. I'm not sure why she didn't, but I just feel like she was resentful of the effort that that took.
00:39:13
Speaker
Yeah. And well, this all occurred within an hour. Yeah. Because she had wait. So her husband had left and had scheduled his mom to come in one hour. And in that time period, she waited until her husband left to fill up the bathtub because she claims that she knew if he was there, he would have tried to stop her and walked up the dog and
00:39:44
Speaker
Admitted that like the dog used to just roam around like it was not typically caged right so she caged the dog go to the bathtub and then Very quickly drowned all of her children Called the police called her husband all before her mother-in-law showed up Yeah, yeah, that's what I was saying. It was like 45 minutes because it wasn't even the full hour I mean Dora had arrived by the time Rusty arrived and was also told about all the kids um while she was standing outside with the police. But yeah, it'd been less than an hour. I did think it was really interesting the dog had been created because normally it wasn't, but she thought that the dog would protect the kids basically.
00:40:32
Speaker
I don't even know if it was like protect the kids, but interference, like one more thing you had to worry about. Because God, our dog like falls me around like a piece of Velcro attached to me. Let alone if you're going to go try and drown somebody. The last thing you need is your dog then not even taking away the fact that he might defend the children, but just be like, what you doing? Where are you going? How about that? Can I come? Like, just one more thing that your brain has to try to like, corral. And she knew she had an hour. She was yeah cognitive enough that she was like, I need to do this efficiently. And that was the easiest way to do it. Yeah, I always do think it's interesting with family annihilators.
00:41:19
Speaker
that usually the dog is spared, um and which I i appreciate. i'll just um youre just thinking of right Kids are important too. I'm just thinking of like all of the family annihilators that I can think of off the top of my head had dogs and the dogs were not. included in the killings and the dogs were often created in a safe place and not involved. Like I'm thinking of Diane Shuler, I'm thinking of Chris Watts. Like there are many different examples of this where people are like, well, not the dog, you know, maybe I'll kill my wife, maybe I'll kill kids, but not the dog, which I am glad because that would have, I mean, this is a horrific situation, but it wouldn't have been helped by her also killing the dog. Right, exactly.
00:42:06
Speaker
um But God, I can't even imagine hearing hearing that. Yeah. And Rusty had tried to convince himself that maybe Noah had been with his mom at the hotel because sometimes the kids would go for like individual sleepovers with the grandma, you know just get some time like grandma time alone. Yeah. And he knew because he had been there in the morning that Noah was in the house. but he was just like trying to convince himself and then when he saw his mother it was confirmed to him that she didn't have any of the kids with her and that they were really all gone and it is horrific. I mean this is one of the worst cases ever that I've ever heard of.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah. So, because at this time, Noah was seven, John was five, Paul was three, Luke was two, and Mary was six months at the time that they died. Which, first of all, not to like make light of the situation, but that age group, and that makes me want to be crazy just hearing having to deal with those ages altogether. like, alone, that alone would make someone go crazy. Because have you tried to deal with three toddlers, let alone five? It's like, it' I mean, it's, but for most people, I think this would just be way too many kids and way too much going on. And they're very, very close in age. And I know people do that. But some people can handle it. But I just, but I just feel like it was
00:43:46
Speaker
of course extremely an extremely stressful situation and I think that most people want to be the best parents they can be and they want to provide all of these things for their kids like financially and spiritually and emotionally and all of and it's you're stretching yourself very thin and if you have a newborn baby that you're breastfeeding you have all of these kids that you're supposed to be providing education to religious education school education because Noah, at least, was school age. And I guess, you know, the other ones, maybe like some kindergarten preschool kind of stuff. But Noah wasn't going to school. He was being homeschooled. And the homeschool curriculum had ended the day that Andrea's dad died. The the whole curriculum just ended. Like she was not teaching them anymore. There were so many signs that this was someone who is in a very difficult situation that was struggling.
00:44:47
Speaker
And instead of taking things off of her plate, it just seems like her plate was getting added to and added to and added to. Because anytime she reached some sort of equilibrium and still ah stability, they had another kid. And now we're homeschooling them. And now we're living in a van. And it just, there were a lot of things that went terribly, terribly wrong, mostly in her brain, but I also agree her actual life was very stressful and crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if we mentioned this, but this did happen in Houston, Texas, which I see is also significant. And when it comes to women as a gender, typically both in cases of killing someone else or trying to kill yourself, they tend to do it in a kind of peaceful way. um You don't often see histories of women
00:45:45
Speaker
doing suicide by gunshots, which is a very popular one with men, they typically are more involved with drownings, overdoses, things of that nature, which is consistent with how she killed her own children, but also how she tried to kill herself. It was a lot of the most painless way to do it was what she typically tried to do. And you could argue that it was a way of sympathy where she killed her children and the most pet quote peaceful way to go, I think drowning is a horrible way to go. But it's less gory, I think is the way that a lot of people try to describe it for women. It was not a bloody scene. Yeah, it looked like the kids were very arranged and yeah, except for Noah, it was like they were all just asleep in the bed. yeah So obviously, she was arrested and put on trial.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah. And when she was arrested, she said that she was the devil, that the devil was speaking through her. She asked for a razor so that she could shave her head to show the mark of the beast. She was saying all kinds of things like that. um But mostly about the devil and Satan. Yeah. And the prophecy. Right. And then also that her children weren't righteous. And due to that, it was because she was evil, which is why they were not righteous and they were doomed to perish in the fires of hell anyway. So her actions were really to save them. Right. Well, she kept saying repeatedly that they, um, they weren't developing correctly and that it was because she had failed them. So this was to ensure that they would go to heaven, basically.
00:47:37
Speaker
Yeah.
Legal Proceedings and Verdict
00:47:38
Speaker
So during her trial, um the first she ah she had two trials because it didn't end up getting overturned. But the first one, the county did ask for the death penalty. It was a trial by jury and they ended up convicting her of capital murder, but not of the death penalty. yeah Sentenced to life in prison with the ability of parole after 40 years. And that ended up being overturned on appeal. Yeah, kate which is really interesting. Yes. And I do think it's also like important to just mention that her lawyers had tried to go for an insanity defense and that was rejected. She had a competency hearing that ended up being longer than her actual murder trial, where she was declared competent. And then yeah, and that's when she was convicted 40 years and yes, it was there was an appeal and I thought that the reason for it was
00:48:36
Speaker
very interesting. Oh, it's kind of funny. it's it It is funny. It's I think it's like actually a very good grounds for appeal. And this was something that was almost almost caused a mistrial during the first trial because it was discovered during that time. It wasn't afterwards. The trial is still going on, which would have probably been better to have a mistrial at that point. But um one of the witness witnesses had said that before the murders, an episode had aired on Law and Order, showing a woman that was pretending to be psychotic and drowned her kids in the bathtub and got away with it. And that basically implying that Andrea had seen that because she did watch that show and that she was using that as a template for what she was doing. yeah And the author, Suzanne O'Malley, who wrote the book that I read, was the one that realized that
00:49:35
Speaker
That was not true. She tried to figure out if that episode ever existed, contacted Dick Wolf and a bunch of other people that she knew that worked for Law and Order, and there there was no episode like that. so I mean, further down the line, they did end up airing one similar based on it was and yeah because it was her. Because this had never happened before. like This was like unique. The expert witness started getting called into question by their testimony, which was a huge conviction foundation. And that's how it got on a return, because they decided the expert witness had a false testimony due to this hypothetical law and order issue.
00:50:18
Speaker
um And during this trial, the first trial, Her husband seemed to put on this front that he truly believed his wife was innocent. She was going to be found innocent. that she would then go to a treatment facility, she'd get better, they'd released, and then they would have more babies because that's the answer. Oh my gosh. He was saying that they could get a surrogate, they could adopt. Yeah. I think anyone's going to let you adopt. God, yeah. Whoopi, hi. My name's Andrea. I murdered five children. Can I have another? It's so sick.
00:50:59
Speaker
It is sick and I feel like it really shows that Rusty is also not all right in his brain. yeah He is in his own little world of crazy. I mean, he's so delusional that he doesn't think that the pregnancies or the babies or any of that had anything to do with her mental health. Like, it would be the worst thing. She's gonna go back to that treatment facility that, you know, quote, fixed her all the other times. And she's just gonna be magically better. That's how it works. Yeah, well, Rusty, so Rusty, blames a lot of different factors for what happened.
00:51:35
Speaker
So now, now Andrea is in a mental health facility because she was, you know, found like, not not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect at her second trial. So yeah, so the second trial beforehand, she got released on bail admitted into a mental facility immediately. but Yeah. went back to trial, the in ah insanity defense was accepted this time. And after a three day deliberation, the jury found her not guilty for the reason of insanity. And then she was sentenced to a high security state hospital. Right. And now she's in a lower security mental facility. Like that's where she is right now to this day. And yep um but Rusty has all different
00:52:23
Speaker
explanations for what really happened. Partially, he blames the medication. She was on a very high dose of the Fexer at the time that she killed the kids and that there are some side effects that are suicidal and homicidal ideation that are associated with the Fexer. um So that was one theory. Another was that she had stopped taking Haldol about two weeks prior to the murders, and that was because her doctor at the time had some hesitations about all of the extreme side effects that happened from Haldol. So maybe it maybe it was related to that. Maybe her coming off of Haldol
00:53:01
Speaker
you know, increased her risk for psychosis, maybe she she was on an extremely high dose of the fixer. So maybe that also played it a part. But to me, both of those seem like reasons that she probably still should have been hospitalized at the time. And it's hard for me to know where to put blame for that. Because she was being continuously released. And a lot of it was due to insurance issues. There were also conflicts with Rusty and his opinions about her medical care, but yeah she was not stable. At one point diagnosed with schizophrenia, which I think is important to mention just because there are different levels of schizophrenia where you have schizophrenia that
00:53:50
Speaker
could be Joe Schmo that you know at work and has, is on his medication, like has nice voices in his head. And then you have the schizophrenics that you see on TV that have homicidal voices and that are telling in the devil in their head, which of all of the diagnosis, and like we said, there's been a laundry list. We've only mentioned a couple. ah that one feels the most accurate for me coupled with the postpartum psychosis. Yeah. Just because of some of the things that she was saying because she had moments of clarity. Right. So I don't think it was always there. Like, and I do think her husband played a lot more of a factor behind the scenes that we'll ever know.
Analysis of Influences and Aftermath
00:54:38
Speaker
Particularly now that she's in prison, she's making statements like
00:54:44
Speaker
I told him I didn't want to have sex because the doctors told us not to and then he would basically bully her into it and saying it was her religious duty and they needed to have more kids and eventually she would just comply. She said that she didn't want to because she might hurt her children and he again he just bullied her into doing it. I think the idea of the cult of one is something that isn't talked about very much, but I think he really was trying to create his own little group of full compliance. The problem is he picked someone who was also psychotic. yes I think if she didn't have the already have the mental health issues, he absolutely could have built this
00:55:34
Speaker
cult-like family following his whim with 10 kids, I think that was his plan and he just picked the wrong one. I think so too. And he couldn't have really known that when they got married because she did not have any signs of these extreme mental illnesses, which she's also been, there have been some, I've read some areas that said that she has bipolar disorder, some that she has schizophrenia, some that she had postpartum psychosis, that she had just severe depression, that she, mania, there's all kinds of things. And she has been diagnosed with
00:56:12
Speaker
multiple psychotic conditions over the years. yeah So, but they did develop over time and were exacerbated by the pregnancies and the struggles of caring for all these little kids. Yeah. And I don't think that she was a good option for him. I think that they got along well in their day to day life, because she was very submissive to whatever he wanted. And he liked that about her, but it was at her own detriment. And she Oh, I agree. could not be perfect for him. There was no way that she could live up to what he thought that she should be. And I'm not blaming Rusty for this, but I do feel like, I mean, he was not charged ultimately. He was not found to be legally responsible, but I have some- Because it was, oh, I completely agree. Because they never could get anything solid. I think a lot of reasons that I found people didn't want to
00:57:10
Speaker
give the death penalty is because they weren't confident that like she a was in her right mind, but I think also that she was independently responsible versus there was like a lot of questions of jealousy and revenge. And if you're doing things against how to revenge against your husband is take his children. If you're jealous of the attention that the kids are getting that you feel like you should be like, there were a lot of things that trickle back to him that I think the juries just weren't comfortable making that final call. Yeah, I mean, I
00:57:49
Speaker
i'm kind of I'm kind of in two minds about it because I feel like if she had been tried somewhere else, she probably would have been not guilty by reason of insanity earlier. like I think that in a lot of states that would have been the ruling. But in Texas, I'm kind of surprised she didn't get the death penalty because she was found to be competent, which is a huge stretch in my opinion. I do not think that she was competent then. I still don't know if she's competent now. by I think that the the fact that she did not get the death penalty and in fact was going to be eligible for parole at some point is a pretty clear indication that they did not feel like she was fully fully responsible for this yeah because she murdered five little kids. in In Texas, in a lot of places, you would get the death penalty for that. It's a pretty extreme breach of time.
00:58:43
Speaker
it is um but you know when it comes to the death penalty it's interesting because texas is very supportive of that they're one of the few states that still have it on the books however what a lot of people just assume because of that there isn't a lot of people on death row with that like it's very very difficult to get charged with that sentence um And I think as time goes on, people are less and less comfortable about getting that out. I think there's under 200 people on death row since like the 80s. And even if you get that doesn't mean you're getting the lethal injection either. Most inmates who have death row sentences just end up dying on death row and never actually
00:59:35
Speaker
get anything. But what a lot of people don't know is I personally would rather get a prison sentence than a not guilty by reason of insanity. Because you don't go home. A, you don't go home, but there's no time limit on those. Each state does do it differently. Um, but it ranges. So some states you get not guilty of reason and sanity. You're in there I can't remember what state it is and I don't want to guess and be wrong. um But there are some states that you go in and you aren't let out until the state deems you competent. ah Texas is not one of them. Texas does a rule where
01:00:20
Speaker
If you're found not guilty due to mental disease or defect, which makes you lacking the capability to appreciate your criminality so you don't technically know the statute that you're doing due to mental health or whatever the case is, they only are allowed to hold you in the mental hospital for the maximum sentence allowed for that crime. Granted, this specific crime is life without parole, so she's never going home. But in other cases, like if you had an option of being 10 years, it's like an automatic, all right, we're going to hold you probably for 10 years, unless you have some way to get competent. But yeah, she's going to be in there for the rest of her life without an option because of the charge that she got.
01:01:10
Speaker
So I think that she actually have has the option to be evaluated every year. Yeah, I'm looking at an article about it now. she she It says that under the terms of her conviction Yates is eligible to undergo a review each year. She has repeatedly declined to be assessed and in 2024 she also declined it. Yeah. So I was under the impression of Texas. They allow you to do that evaluation, but they're going to hold you up to the maximum. So basically they would go, if she was found competent, be moved to another facility and then would get re-sentenced versus the not guilty by reason of sanity. You're kind of held until
01:02:02
Speaker
Because just because you get tested doesn't mean you're going to A, be competent. But at that point, you know, they can't hold you any longer than X. So like if they're, the sentencing was the maximum sentence was 40 years incarcerated, they cannot legally hold her. They have no jurisdiction over her over those 40 years. But the loophole is in these cases is then they can just civilly commit her.
01:02:32
Speaker
your 40 years is up, you're still not confident enough, we'll civilly commit you because you've been awarded the state, you don't have your independence at that point, they can just commit you and keep you forever. So there's no endgame there. And also what is she going back to? Well, nothing because well, also she could be tried again, because she It was only charged for three of the kids murders in the original trial and in the second trial because it was an appeal of that direct trial. So there are still two child murders that she could be charged with because there are no statute of limitations on murder. So it was done strategically by the state to only charge her with three of five of the murders because if something happened and she was found not guilty at the first trial, the plan was that they were going to try her again separately.
01:03:28
Speaker
So and don't they could still do that. Her husband also divorced her during this process. Yes. Well, yeah, he did. He divorced her. So she doesn't have that to go back to. Yeah. So it was during her trial in August 2004. He filed for divorce under the
01:03:49
Speaker
basically presentation that they were no longer living together as a married couple since the day that the murders occurred. Like, no kidding, man. Like, obviously. And that was his justification to get divorced. And that went active as of early 2005. He was then remarried in March 2006, three months prior to her second trial concluding. So like, she wasn't even done. Your kids hadn't even been dead for five years and you're already remarried. Yeah. Yeah. Gross. He did remarry and he had another kid. Um, and that marriage also ended up in divorce, but not a lot of details about it that I could find on mine.
01:04:41
Speaker
No, they got, I think it was 2021 that I said that they got divorced. They only had the one kid. I will say she's very pretty. The, the new wife. This a child in 2015. Oh, but I mean, I think that it would probably be very difficult to be married to Rusty after what he went through. Yeah, her name was Laura Arnold. Yeah, that's yeah. um I'm looking at the wrong Laura Arnold on
01:05:14
Speaker
Yeah. I just can't even imagine like, how do you, how do you try to move on from that first out in his, in his benefit? Like trying to move on and restart your life completely. However, I don't think that's the way to go. like I think he just wanted to pretend that nothing can happen and move on and he, He also had an interesting relationship with one of the ministers and he, there was questions of like wanting to have revenge coming into play, which I'd be curious if his religion and the ministers around him pushed him into getting married again, because again, you have to have babies. I could be curious kind of what the behind the wall was that over there. Yeah, I, I did not realize that, um,
01:06:11
Speaker
they got married in the same church where the kids funerals were. That's what this says. Isn't that also icky? Yeah. Like you're less than five years ago, you were staying there burying your five children and that's where, but again, it was a very small, knit, religious community. He probably didn't have very many options on where he could get married anyway. That's true. I, yeah. And they probably would have had a lot more kids if they were younger. But Laura was in her 40s. Yeah. Yeah. So i I really truly do feel so terrible for Rusty. I feel like he went through one of the worst, most unimaginable tragedies that a person could probably go through. um But I do have some complicated feelings about
01:07:01
Speaker
his culpability and responsibility in the situation. And I'm sure even now that's a struggle for him as well. um yeah So I feel kind of bad saying that, but I do think that if you're being told repeatedly by doctors that your wife is psychotic and she could be a danger to your kids, which he claims was not told to him like that. He was not told that she was psychotic. He was not told that she was a danger to the kids, that he just thought that she was depressed and a danger to herself. But I don't really believe that. I really don't believe that. I don't think that you're taking your wife every three weeks to get an injection of Haldol if you don't know she's psychotic.
01:07:41
Speaker
it's documented and the two of them went to the doctor and was like, hey, we want to get off this medication. This wasn't a thing that they did on their own. um right It was verbalized in in advance. So yeah, I don't agree with it at all. I think it was, I think he wanted the cult of one and unfortunately picked the wrong female for it. And now that all of this happened, he has to backtrack and he has to try to live with his culpability in it. I don't think he should be held to the same standard because obviously she is the one that drowned her children. But I think there should be some kind of against doctors orders, you left that woman alone because you, the random human being decided that you knew better than a psychiatrist.
01:08:38
Speaker
and left her alone with your children. That was a conscious decision. Yeah, like he really went into that eyes wide open. I mean, he had wrestled knives out of her hands while she was trying to stab herself. He had thrown her in the car while she was in a psychotic fit. Like he had seen her be completely catatonic. Like, those are signs of severe mental illness. she was She lost so much weight because she was unable to eat. She couldn't even eat and ensure. Like, that is... But you're comfortable leaving your babies with her? Well, she needed a she needed a swift kick in the pants. Oh, vomit. But so true. Yeah. I mean, I really think that he thought that she could just like...
01:09:31
Speaker
toughen up a little bit and if he pushed her then she would just have to rise to the occasion and that is that was not a good move yeah yeah she snapped and she had a very short distance to get to and she had told the doctors and police that she'd been thinking about killing the kids for two years. Mary wasn't even a thought at that point So, but yeah and and she was still on Haldol at that point too, the first time because she didn't go off of it until she started trying for Mary. So I think that a lot of these things were lingering, persistent issues. It just, it came in cycles of being extremely, extremely bad versus just bad. And yeah in that book that I'm talking about, one of the doctors described Rusty as a good person, but
01:10:25
Speaker
in his acceptance of Andrea, he also is willing to tolerate a very high level of mental illness, like where it just doesn't faze him. And that is a super dangerous combination. And it just had the most horrific results.
01:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, oh it's just it's so sad. It really is.
01:10:51
Speaker
All right. So what are your last thoughts when it comes to Andrea?
01:11:01
Speaker
I feel terrible for her. I'm glad that she is confined in a mental facility. I think that even if she was stable for a long time, I would still think that she was a danger to herself and possibly other people. um Yeah. And that this is a really, a terrifying example of the need for postpartum psychiatric care for people who need it and for long term hospitalizations when appropriate and I could go on all day about the limitations of insurance on medical care.
01:11:38
Speaker
um But I basically feel like Andrea and her kids were failed entirely. And she was a very noncompliant patient, but she was super sick. And she shouldn't have been in the position to make these decisions for herself at that point. She probably needed a conservatorship. I don't think that she was well at all. And I think that Rusty, you just wouldn't acknowledge that. But I think that's pretty much it. How about you? was just a really unfortunate circumstance that got pushed to the limit. And I do think he should be held accountable to a degree because at the end of the day, he was the one who left her alone and was it told not to. So I think there's that's where I start to feel achy about it because it all could have been avoided. Part of me feels like it was inevitable, ah but I also think it could have
01:12:34
Speaker
could have been done differently.
01:12:43
Speaker
Well, that was our mother of the week. I do think this is probably one of the the more sad ones we've we've done just with the sheer number and the age. I think it's just so sad. Yeah. and like I don't think Andrea is evil. I think some of these other people that we've talked about are just evil completely. Whereas, yeah, absolutely. So it's, I don't feel like the anger at her that maybe I normally would, um, like in other cases where people like just really neglect and abuse their kids, I feel very upset with them and very angry with them. Whereas Andrea, I just pity her and feel terrible for her. Yeah.
01:13:34
Speaker
Yeah, so that's why, I think that's why it's so sad. But I always found this case very, very interesting. I know, I don't watch that. I don't watch that. I think it was, it's not the normal armoire that I watch, but I would be very curious to watch it and compare it.
01:13:56
Speaker
Yeah, me too. Oh, I'm currently watching all of those. but That's what i'm what I'm hoping it is. So good. Oh my god. So good. I friggin love that show. I love that show. Although it kind of fell apart for me a little bit when Elliot left. But the reincorporation of him I haven't left. I don't know what I want. i do like Sunny. I think he was, once he, their introduction of him was terrible, but they definitely did a good job of like building him up as a character. I like him later on. Um, but.
01:14:38
Speaker
Yeah. I know. That's where I haven't gotten to that re-do yet. I think that's again where they start to lose me again. It just depends on the season. but Yeah. Yeah. I also, I like, Love that. I really liked it when it was iced tea. fat that's That was my gag. Yeah. Yes. All right. I think that's it for now. You too. Yes. till the next