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2.7_Social Justice Series: Zahirah Sabir, RLAW'24; and Viktoria Zerda, RLAW'22
16 Plays4 years ago
In a special Social Justice Series, Co-Dean Kim Mutcherson talks with current Social Justice Scholars Zahirah Sabir, RLAW'24; and Viktoria Zerda, RLAW'22 about the challenges of working in social justice reform and what makes them hopeful for the future.
Learn more about the Social Justice Scholars Program!
The Power of Attorney is produced by Rutgers Law School. With two locations minutes from Philadelphia and New York City, Rutgers Law offers the prestige and reputation of a large, nationally-known university combined with a personal, small campus experience. Learn more by visiting law.rutgers.edu.
Series Producer and Editor: Kate Bianco
--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rutgerslaw/messageRecommended
Transcript
Introduction and Student Backgrounds
00:00:11
Speaker
Hi, my name is Kim Mutcherson, Coding of Rutgers Law School in Camden, and this is the power of attorney.
00:00:18
Speaker
We get to do another fun episode today. And what makes it fun is that this is another episode where I get to talk to students, current students at the law school, which I always really enjoy. So I'm going to ask both of them to introduce themselves to let you know their name, their year in law school, and also where they're from. So Victoria, why don't you go first?
00:00:43
Speaker
Thank you. So I'm Victoria. I'm a 2L currently at Rutgers, and I'm originally from San Antonio, Texas. Awesome. Thank you, Victoria. Hello, I'm Sahara. I am a 1LE, meaning I'm an evening student here at Rutgers. I live in alongside New Jersey, and I'm originally from Brooklyn, New York. Awesome.
00:01:05
Speaker
Well, thank you both for being here with me today. I'm very excited to have a conversation and to get to know both of you a little bit better.
Motivations for Attending Law School
00:01:14
Speaker
The way I always like to start these podcasts is asking people for their origin stories, which is, first of all, tipping you off to the fact that I really love superhero movies and comics. But I really like to understand what it is that brought people to law school, given all the different ways that you could choose to spend your life and all the different careers.
00:01:35
Speaker
that you could choose to involve yourself in, you have both decided that law school and being a lawyer is where you wanna be. So I wanna understand that and where that comes from. So, Zahira, how about you go first?
00:01:47
Speaker
Sure. So I guess my story is not so super simple. I kind of had a roundabout way to law school. I always knew I wanted to be an attorney since I was probably maybe like seven or eight years old. And that was from watching, and I'm also an older student in comparison to some of my colleagues. So watching the Cosby show growing up, you know, Claire Huxville was my shero. So I loved her. Her parents were West Indians, similar to mine.
00:02:15
Speaker
My mother's from Jamaica. So just seeing her on the screen and realizing that she was just like this I felt like the law gave her like a superpower too Like she was just so intellectual and so that was like my first experience with it. So I always wanted to be a lawyer I didn't really understand what that meant at that time But I just know I wanted to do it and then life happened and I actually I'm a Rutgers alum I went to college here and
00:02:38
Speaker
And I got the opportunity to work for the State of New Jersey. So I was with the legislature for a lot of years. And so I kind of just put law school in the back burner a little bit, but there was always this nudging feeling of my interest in advocacy and my interest in the law. So that's something that's been nagging at me for years. And then one day I was just sitting in my office and I was like, you know, that's where you want to be. So I started taking the steps to do that. And that's sort of kind of how I ended up here.
00:03:04
Speaker
I love that. I especially love the Claire Huxtable part of it because I think there are probably a lot of little brown girls in particular who remember Claire Huxtable as somebody who made us think that being a lawyer was almost like being a superhero, as you say. So I love that. Victoria, and I'm going to go back to you, Sahara, because I want to talk more about your time in the legislature. Sure. But Victoria, let's hear your origin story.
Community Advocacy and Legislative Work
00:03:27
Speaker
Yeah, so this is always a difficult question for me. Being from San Antonio, Texas is kind of, I know generally what made me go to law school. It's a very interesting place. There's a lot of kind of like intersecting issues being from a place like South Texas close to the border. And so I think growing up in a family that was already involved with lots of labor struggles, some of my family was involved in migrant work.
00:03:55
Speaker
very early on in the 50s and 60s. And so I was kind of born in a very, I guess, struggling family politically. And so from a very young age, I always knew that I wanted to do something that would be in a service to the communities that I'm a part of and beyond that.
00:04:14
Speaker
And so, yeah, I started my career kind of in nonprofit areas of work and then social work as well. And kind of like what Zahira said, I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer, but it really took me a couple of gap years in between undergrad and when I started law school to finally be like, okay, this is really what my long term goal is, and I need to accomplish it in order to go back to the work I love and, you know, be a tool for that work. That's kind of my story.
00:04:43
Speaker
Excellent. Thank you. So Zahira, I want to go back to you and get a little bit more of your backstory in terms of the time that you spent working for the legislature. So what kind of work were you doing? And is there anything about that experience that made you think, you know, there, there are gaps here that I might be able to fill if I had a law degree?
00:05:06
Speaker
Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. To your second question. So my background, I started with the Senate. I worked in the fifth district for the majority, well, all of my time in the legislature. I started with the Senate though, the upper house, and then moved on to the lower house later in my career. So I was, the fifth district happens to be who represents Camden city as well.
00:05:27
Speaker
So, you know, with the various committees that my members were part of, my focus, of course, was I was a legislative aide. So I was a part of the billmaking, you know, legislative procedures. I happened to be within the arena when the sort of controversial police changing of hands was happening. So there was a lot going on. And so, you know, just seeing the kind of the behind the scenes activity and a lot of the people who work in the state legislature
00:05:54
Speaker
by nature have law degrees and just a simple, like their immense understanding of how the law works, how our constitution works at the state level and at the US level. So just seeing all of those workings going hand in hand and seeing how that comes together to
00:06:10
Speaker
create the laws that we all abide by or, you know, at least should be abiding by on a regular basis was interesting, but it also felt like I was kind of at a disadvantage because I felt like I had the ability to do that and understand that too, but not the sort of credentialing behind it. So that came into play. And then also kind of seeing the lobbying structure and the fact that some voices are heard and some voices aren't heard. And that simply is because of folks not necessarily knowing how to
00:06:39
Speaker
to conduct themselves or how to access the resources that are really readily available to all. So seeing, you know, through my case work, through my legislative work, kind of the disconnect of resources with people and that the fact that, you know, folks who had the tools and had the understanding were able to access those things and folks who didn't were at a disadvantage.
00:07:00
Speaker
You know, kind of wanted to alleviate that. So that's kind of like where my inner advocacy voice came into. And by nature, you know, your legislative office, that's what we're supposed to be doing. We're supposed to be advocating for our constituents. So seeing different things happening with veterans and women, you know, gender issues and, you know, really just socioeconomic issues that were not being addressed really was kind of a driver for me as well.
00:07:22
Speaker
Excellent. Thank you.
Social Justice Motivations
00:07:24
Speaker
Victoria, I wanted to go back to you to pull a little bit more backstory from you as well, because one of the first things you said is that being from San Antonio, you know, there are a lot of interesting issues related to being near the border. And I think a lot of us know what you're talking about, but you know, what are some of the things that you saw either around you or in your family that, you know, inspired you to think about what you could do with a law degree?
00:07:49
Speaker
That's a really good question. So yeah, I guess what I mean is that there are just so many intersecting issues in the South in general, but in such a heavily colonized place like the Southwest, I think everything becomes so much more complicated. Yeah, as I mentioned, my family was migrant working for a couple of decades during really
00:08:14
Speaker
I guess, high racial tension times. And that is for Mexicans, Black Americans, Black Mexicans as well, and white people in the area.
00:08:25
Speaker
And I guess kind of growing up around those stories and histories that my family would talk about and often be involved in really kind of set me kind of on this path towards advocating for my communities and being a public servant in whatever way I could. And I think law school, and I think a lot of people can relate to this for, you know, especially
00:08:47
Speaker
You know black and brown students first-gen students is that you always want to go the next Level and so you always are trying to push yourself to these, you know new limits my family didn't really have the opportunity to get higher education and to get professional jobs and
00:09:04
Speaker
And so from a very young age, that became my goal was to, you know, to fill these gaps that I was noticing. And then as I got older, I got into working with unaccompanied minors who were coming across the border from Central America. And that's kind of where I finally, you know, fell in everything kind of fell into place was
00:09:23
Speaker
the advocacy work, but also realizing that what was really missing were advocates for these communities and people who actually cared. And so being next to or being in the border region and growing up there really just made me feel really passionate about this cause, but also it just helped me kind of realize
00:09:43
Speaker
What the work was that I needed to do and of course these past couple of years have been really hostile in this field in particular but yeah, that was kind of more of my story and I think that like
00:09:56
Speaker
what people, I think that whole seeing the gap and realizing that you need to fill it, which gap needs to be filled is something that happens kind of naturally. I didn't always think the law was pure and good, especially for people like immigrants and people of color and black people. But I think it is definitely a journey to figure out where you fit in and where the law can hopefully advocate for people and be a tool and not a weapon.
00:10:25
Speaker
Absolutely. Oh, that was perfect. I love that ending. To be a tool and not a weapon. Or at least if it's a weapon, it's a weapon for justice and righteousness. Yes, definitely. So I want to talk to both of you a little bit about social justice work and what that looks like to you and what it means to talk about being a lawyer who is doing social justice work. And I know that both of you obviously are involved in the social justice
00:10:52
Speaker
scholars community in Camden. So first, talk to me a little bit about, I feel like social justice is a term that we throw around a lot, and it's not always clear what people mean by it. So, Zahira, I'll ask you this first. When you sort of think about being a lawyer who's working for or in or towards social justice, what does that mean to you?
00:11:13
Speaker
So as you said, I have the pleasure of being a Rutgers social justice scholar with Victoria, who actually interviewed me, which is funny, as my, you know, upperclassman. So thank you, Victoria. But I feel like what that means for me as a lawyer,
00:11:29
Speaker
One, obviously no one can see me, so they can't see kind of like my background, but I'm a black woman, right? So there's two things right there where there's a certain amount of social injustices that I have to face on a pretty regular basis. And to me being an attorney, I feel like one, it gives me the tools and understanding of how the law works and how the law protects me or should protect me and protect people who look like me.
00:11:56
Speaker
And when it's not, and when it's falling short, hopefully having the strength, the knowledge, and the power, as Victoria said, kind of having that tool or weapon, weaponizing my understanding of the law to be able to protect people who look like me and who don't look like me. The idea of people being marginalized because of any sort of thing that, one, they can't help that it's attributed to them, their race, their gender, their sexual orientation, all of those things. So the fact that people are facing
00:12:23
Speaker
discrimination on a daily basis and me living and walking in it on a daily basis myself and knowing that that's a truth, I really am hoping that I can use my legal education to be able to combat that.
00:12:35
Speaker
and many levels. And then, you know, my legislative background to be able to combat it as well. So I think both of those together, my hope is to help, you know, help and assist with changing some of our laws that are antiquated and, you know, really bringing our social justice system as a whole and putting the emphasis on justice because a lot of times it seems like it's a really
00:12:54
Speaker
and unequal and equity doesn't exist there, especially if you're poor, if you're a person of color, all of those things. So being able to bring some equity and some balance in the legal world and be able to have some information where I can advocate and protect people who look like me. Yeah, perfect.
00:13:11
Speaker
What about you, Victoria? Again, you're part of the social justice scholars program. What does that program mean in terms of your experience as a
Challenges of Being First-Gen Students
00:13:22
Speaker
law student? What are the benefits to you of having that community of social justice scholars that you're a part of?
00:13:29
Speaker
Oh, I think it's just so, it's been so crucial for me. I think social justice for me can mean lots of things. I mean, it could mean like being a lawyer and doing things on behalf of
00:13:44
Speaker
marginalized communities and it could build communities. And I think with the social justice scholars, at least for my cohort of 22, was it kind of gave us a space to think critically. And I don't know
00:14:01
Speaker
if there was a space for that before, I guess, at least for me, I was a part of a lot of organizations. But what social justice scholars did was it opened up a space for us to be critical of the spaces that already existed. And I think what it did specifically was it gave us a way to think about things like public interest and nonprofit and kind of those fields that are meant to serve, right?
00:14:29
Speaker
And like how those fields can actually be problematic themselves. And so social justice for me is kind of going beyond those frameworks that already exist in the legal field and being critical of them. And I think that really will get to kind of, you know, the root of what social justice means because I think it can be watered down a lot in so many ways.
00:14:57
Speaker
And so I think, yeah, that's kind of what this space has done for me. And it has been crucial in building community. As someone who didn't know a lawyer previous to coming to law school, I mean, without it, I think it would have been very difficult for me to find my place and my people.
00:15:15
Speaker
Thank you. So there are a bunch of things that both of you all said that I want to follow up on. But I want to start with you, Victoria, because I think there's also something very powerful about folks talking about their experience in law school as first gen students and sort of how you see your transition to law school being impacted by the fact that you didn't have some lawyer in your family to kind of hold your hand through the process.
00:15:45
Speaker
Has law school been what you expected? And to the extent that it has or hasn't been, what are the things that have stood out for you in this experience? So I do want to point out that I do have my older sister who's three years older than me, who really is my role model and is a physician. And so she kind of led the way as far as who I could follow and who I could look to.
00:16:07
Speaker
But I think in general, law school has been what I expected and then it hasn't. It is really difficult to try to act like, especially in your 1L classes, that the law, the legal field is this objective place.
00:16:28
Speaker
I always feel like kind of gaslit when I'm told this and that was my overwhelming feeling like throughout my first and second semester because I could look to my left and my right and there were people who already knew judges. There were people who already had internships lined up.
00:16:45
Speaker
there were people whose parents could explain to them what a memo was. And I just remember feeling so lost a little bit. And I think all of those feelings about these technical things really affect the way you perceive yourself in the greater scheme of things. And so I started questioning, is this the capacity I really belong in? Is this what I should really be doing? Is this something that will actually
00:17:12
Speaker
help people in the way that I want, right? And so, I mean, the first year of law school, I think someone could write novels about it. But yeah, I guess I would say it's been both met my expectations as far as, you know, racial dynamics, socioeconomic differences, but then it's kind of gone beyond my expectations in the way that like now I've gotten to know
00:17:37
Speaker
the underbelly of the legal profession and the things that are at issue there. And so, yeah, I think it's just such a complex conversation in general. Yeah, definitely. And I think in particular that the times that we are living in now have in some ways sort of enhanced or exacerbated
00:18:00
Speaker
what I think lots of students of color have identified. And certainly it was my experience as a black woman in law school that feeling of sort of sitting in classes and reading these cases and thinking, oh, we're going to have a robust conversation about race and racism in American law because we just read X case.
00:18:21
Speaker
And then you don't have that discussion, and you think, oh, well, maybe I missed something. So I certainly, I hear that frustration. It's a frustration that I think has been around for a long time. But again, I think it is sort of exacerbated by the times that we are living in, which are obviously very difficult in a range of different ways.
Impact of Sociopolitical Events
00:18:41
Speaker
What about Yuzu here? I don't think I asked if you were first gen as a law student, but
00:18:48
Speaker
whether you are or not, you know, has law school been the experience that you thought it was going to be? And in what ways has it, you know, lived up to or lived down to in some instances, your expectations?
00:19:02
Speaker
So I'm not first generation, and I also do have some attorneys in my family. However, I don't know how much of a good job we did internally in our family of being able to have the competition of what our professions are and how. So I think there is still a certain amount of disconnect. One of my cousins is a public defender in Essex County.
00:19:23
Speaker
So I'm finally like kind of starting to prick his brain about his experience, but he's sort of far removed as well. You know, he's been out of school for 15 years. So it kind of feels like I'm out here on the bridge by myself a little bit. But one, I'm really thankful for the minority student program here on campus. You know, students who identify themselves as a minority in some way are, you know, welcome to become members there. So I think it's been really helpful. I think the resources and the friendships really that are coming out of it
00:19:52
Speaker
the camaraderie, you know, being able to talk to people who can understand it from your lens a little bit, because it is a little intimidating, you know, as diverse as Rutgers is becoming, you're still the minority in the room by substantial numbers, you know, so I'll be in a class of, you know, 30 or 40 people, and there's maybe four people who look like me or could look like me or, you know, could identify themselves as a minority in some way. And I kind of feel that some
00:20:20
Speaker
Professors are a little bit better with integrating the realities and the disparities of law when they're sort of going through case briefings and having those conversations in relation to the elements that we're learning. But I think others are just sticking to the law. And I think that there is a way to go deeper. I think that also
00:20:40
Speaker
It does help that we have diversity in leadership. So I think that also helps to come from the top down, sort of that message of understanding that folks are coming from all different stories, all different backgrounds, and then being cognizant of where we sit. You know, we sit in Camden City and I know
00:20:58
Speaker
Luckily, I have not experienced it firsthand, but I do know of other experiences of folks who speak disparagingly of the city and, you know, those kind of things. So, you know, kind of just rolling with the punches on that and being strong and who I'm
00:21:12
Speaker
I think I have a little bit of advantage being a little older and having some experience of life experience that I get to take with me. And, you know, it's made me a little bit stronger because I've had to go through some things in my career and, you know, in education previously, you know, so I've kind of, I'm used to being in those spaces and how to navigate them a little bit, but it still doesn't necessarily make it so it's not uncomfortable. Sure. Absolutely. So I want to, I want to jump into a conversation about life as a law student in this, in
00:21:42
Speaker
I'll say in the Trump era, right? So at a time in the United States where I think race is always an issue in this country. It has been from the beginning, but there's a level at which it is
00:21:58
Speaker
so much a part of our discourse. Now, we know we're talking about police brutality. We're talking about defunding the police. We're talking about prison abolition. We're talking about immigration and closing borders and building walls. In the COVID era, we are looking at enormous racial disparities in who's getting sick and who's dying. And interestingly, and who's considered to be an essential worker. Right. So on one side, we have people who are
00:22:28
Speaker
you know, health care workers. And then we also have people who are, you know, working in fast food places who are told that they're essential workers. And so we're in this really interesting space, I think. And when you're in law school, particularly when you're a social justice person who's in law school, all those kinds of things that are happening out in the world, I'm imagining feel really relevant to the two of you.
00:22:52
Speaker
both in terms of who you are personally, but also who you imagine yourself to be professionally. So I would love to have a little bit of a conversation about that. What has it been like being a person with your background, your commitments, your desire to be a lawyer and watching what's going on in the world around us right now?
00:23:10
Speaker
Victoria, how about you start? Sure. So yeah, all I keep saying over and over again is like, what a time to be in law school these past couple of years, but especially this year. I mean, it has been both kind of like, like what a time and then also it has been like the level of existential and collective dread slash
00:23:33
Speaker
energy slash hope is like at an all-time high and so it's just so overwhelming and I think that that's you know for a lot of people in law school who you know perhaps before May of this year did not consider social justice at all and who have now had to reckon with certain issues in the world that they wouldn't have otherwise had
00:24:00
Speaker
this year not really shown how unequal and unjust this country we live in is. And so that's been another interesting aspect to all of this.
00:24:14
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, like I said, it's difficult to kind of summarize how it feels to be someone who's kind of like in public interest. And specifically for me, I worked at Highest Pennsylvania this summer for my 1L job, which is an immigration aid organization. And just being in that field under the Trump administration was so frustrating, very depressing as you probably understand the amount of people who are looking for immigration relief.
00:24:43
Speaker
right now is historic and also the amount of suppression and oppression that they're facing is historic and you know being a part of the immigration rights clinic run by Professor Gottesman who's amazing at this point in time is really interesting and hopefully it gets better but I think as someone who's interested in social justice and and advocacy I think it's also a good time and so I think it's also like a hopeful moment where
00:25:12
Speaker
I never thought in a million years we'd be talking about defunding the police or prison abolition. And so I guess those are just the feelings that we're going to have to work through and figure out as we go along into 2021. Yeah, absolutely. Zahira, what about you?
Optimism and Hope for the Future
00:25:31
Speaker
What has it been like being a law student in a time of enormous turbulence in this country and in the world?
00:25:40
Speaker
I think the word turbulence is perfect because I call 2020 the perfect storm. I feel like there's just been, if we're not dealing with catastrophe, we're dealing with pandemic, we're dealing with a complete unrest. But I think of it kind of like Victoria towards her head of her statement, I'm very hopeful. And the reason why is because I think that we have been shaken in such a way that we're never going to be the same again.
00:26:07
Speaker
And I'm okay with that. I'm okay if people are starting to pay attention to things that they may not have paid attention to before. You know, I was talking about this on, on another podcast about the fact that everything happens for a reason. And the fact that the pandemic hit first and caused, you know, its own destruction, but
00:26:27
Speaker
It also forced people to be at home with each other and at home with their thoughts and their behaviors and then also at home with no distractions. So as other things were happening, folks had to pay attention. So, I mean, as a student right now, I think that, you know, there's been a lot of adjustments just even to the platform, to the learning, like structure, all of those things.
00:26:46
Speaker
which I think is going to make us stronger in our profession in some ways because we've had to alter our educational experience quite a bit. So that I'm completely optimistic. I think that it's been a very emotional year. You know, I found myself in spaces of, you know, just being sad and not really necessarily being understood.
00:27:07
Speaker
So all of those things kind of compiling. I also unfortunately had the virus. So dealing with my own family, my mother and I both were pretty sick. My mom was in the hospital for a while. So, you know, it's just, there's just so much. I kid and say 2020 has been like five years long because
00:27:26
Speaker
It's like as soon as one thing's over, it's another. And now we're getting ready to go into a election cycle, which if that doesn't make you want to go to law school, I don't know what does because of all of the infringing on people's voters' rights and, you know, watching the Supreme Court nomination hearing, like all of those things. So as angry sometimes as I am and as sad as I am, I'm so optimistic and so charged by it all.
00:27:51
Speaker
that I can't wait to get out there and be able to do what I can from my platform and the little bit of education that I have so far. So in a nutshell, it's been a whirlwind. Yeah.
00:28:03
Speaker
What I liked the most about what both of you said and what makes me so happy is both of you use the word hopeful. And I think both of you used optimistic. Maybe it was just the hero, but I feel like you felt the same way too, Victoria. And I think that that's been really hard for lots of folks to sustain that over the last, certainly over the last several months, but really over the last few years, this sense of, you know, that this, this is a country that is
00:28:30
Speaker
both capable of and willing to live up to its promises, right? And so it just, I'm delighted to hear both of you talk about being optimistic and talk about being hopeful because I think that's been really hard for a lot of people to carry for the last few months. So let me ask you, Victoria, I mean, what is it that's making you feel hopeful? I mean, what do you see around us that makes you say, yeah, we've got this.
00:29:00
Speaker
You know it's I don't know I I keep going back and forth because I have my days where I think you know what I'm sitting in this zoom class I'm tired you know especially when the George Floyd protests and Brianna Taylor protests were really at their peak I felt so helpless
00:29:20
Speaker
And I spent many days out in the streets in these protests and I had never felt such a heightened level of energy and hopefulness despite the fact that we were all out there for such a
00:29:36
Speaker
devastating reason. And for someone like me, I mean, I've been around, you know, struggles against like police violence and prison abolition for years. And so this struggle has always been there, you know, the devastation, the death, it's always been there. Like, what's the hero was saying the thing about this year is that it just really was put into people's faces literally in their homes on their TVs.
00:30:00
Speaker
And so as I hear conversations, even just in law class, the types of positions you hear people taking now that were different just six months ago, right? It's like, that's what makes me hopeful. It makes me hopeful because, you know, the world we live in right now can be better. And we saw that through all of the protesting and just a whole country really rising up and
00:30:29
Speaker
together saying, like, this is enough. And this country, I think, also stopped pretending like everything was OK. And I think that's what I was waiting for for so long as someone who's involved in this social justice world. I was always waiting for this moment. And so I think that's what makes me hopeful is that now we can tear down the facade of so many things, right? Health care, education, income disparity,
00:30:59
Speaker
racism and we can finally start addressing them and we can finally start creating solutions that will work and not that are just another arm of the same problems and the same systemic issues. And so I think that is what keeps me hopeful and hopefully everybody else can see that as well. But I totally understand
00:31:27
Speaker
if people feel like the opposite because it has been, and I didn't even know Zahira had struggled with COVID and her mom. And that's, I mean, you just never know what people are going through. And so I do sympathize with both feelings, but hopefully this is what it's gonna take. Absolutely.
00:31:48
Speaker
And I want to jump back to you too, Zahira. And first say, I'm so glad that you and your mom are healthy. But what about you when you sort of look around the world and there are so many things to feel hopeless about? What are the things that, you know, get you to hop out of bed in the morning with energy and, you know, ready to take on the world?
00:32:10
Speaker
So thank you, by the way, for the humble wishes. And I think what energizes me are young people. You know, I'm in my 30s, so I'm not like, I'm in between, right?
00:32:23
Speaker
I don't consider myself, you know, an elder yet, but I also have been through some things. But seeing people who are younger than me, who are really sort of challenging the system, and even in small ways, like even, you know, there are videos that go around of like, young people challenging their parents, which is so difficult.
00:32:42
Speaker
But the fact that people are sort of arming themselves with knowledge and are kind of like Victoria was saying, like, you know, the facade's falling. The first thing you have to do is admit you have a problem, and then you solve it. And then you figure out the steps of solving it. So the fact that people, it's really difficult to deny that there's an issue here, right? So people are seeing it with their own eyes. And I mean, it's not something that hasn't been happening forever, you know, culturally.
00:33:10
Speaker
historically, et cetera. But the fact that you can't deny it anymore, and the fact that people who don't look like me seem to be pretty tired of it, and the fact that folks are taking those reins and are able to challenge the systems around them,
00:33:25
Speaker
and want systematic change in itself too. And you know, it's really difficult to give up a position of power. I get it. It's totally difficult. You know, if you have a certain amount of power that comes along with just being who you are, it's difficult one to recognize it and to give it up, you know? So I get the challenges there too. But the fact that people are doing it anyway, I think makes me really hopeful and optimistic.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I have said when being asked this same question is exactly what you said, Zahira, which is, I'm lucky. I teach at a law school, so I get to see these young folks, and I'm going to include you in that, Zahira. I don't care that you're in your 30s, you're younger than I am.
00:34:10
Speaker
you know, these young folks who are at the beginning of their legal careers, who are focused, who are smart, who are hardworking, and who are going to go out there and change the world. So I, you know, I feel incredibly lucky that I get to do that on a regular, on a very regular basis, which is terrific. So I'm going to ask just a couple more questions.
Reflections on Political Climate and Future Careers
00:34:32
Speaker
So one question, you know, keeping us in the same space of thinking about
00:34:36
Speaker
you know, the political space that we're in right now and kind of what's, what's going on with the world. We have an election coming up and I'm not going to ask you, you know, who you think's going to win or anything like that, but I would love to ask you, you know, what do you think this election cycle really sort of thinking about, you know, the people who were involved, the long process that we've gone down to,
00:35:02
Speaker
you know, starting with if you think about the democratic field when we first started out what that field looked like and then what it narrowed down to, what lessons do you draw from this election cycle of good and bad? Victoria? Dean Mutcherson, that's such a big question. I cannot even describe how frustrating I think the year was if we're talking about kind of like electoral politics
00:35:29
Speaker
I was excited at the beginning. I saw a trend that was leaning towards people wanting systemic change and people wanting to transform the society we live in. And then that kind of collapsed and that was pretty upsetting for me. And now the state of things is kind of like
00:35:53
Speaker
you know, let's make it through November. And let's keep Trump out of office. And so I think, you know, I'm not someone who thinks that just voting is going to solve our issues. And so that's another thing that if we were talking about hopefulness, you know, I think
00:36:11
Speaker
thinking about the fact that what happened this summer in response to COVID, in response to police killings is really what I have to remind myself is gonna push the election further and it's gonna push elected officials to move in the direction that you're saying this large chunk of young people in America right now in the direction that they want. So I think both things have to happen at once in order for us to see the change that we want.
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah. And so I guess I'm just ready for it to be over with. I'm ready to kind of move on and see, you know, who wins and where we can, you know, attack as far as like, you know, advocating for different social justice issues. And so that's where my interest really lies. Got it. And what about you, Zihira? I mean, one of the things that I have said, particularly when we got down to the point where we had the two nominees was
00:37:06
Speaker
you know, watching the democratic field, which in the beginning was the most diverse collection of people vying for the democratic nomination that we've ever seen. And then, you know, getting down to the end of it and realizing it was going to be, you know, sort of establishment Joe Biden was a little shocking. But, you know, here we are. So, you know, what has this political season been like for you? And are there any lessons that you're drawing from it?
00:37:34
Speaker
So similar to Victoria, I would just like to be over. I think November 4th can't come fast enough. But I think the biggest lesson in this may come off as radical or, you know, I'm not sure how it will be received. But if you watch the way our system works, we're not a two-party system. And I think that's the biggest thing and the biggest lesson that folks should start learning. You know, the fact that we're kind of
00:37:58
Speaker
in spaces where we have to pick the better of two evils. And historically and politically, our country has been founded on multiple parties. So I think the fact that we need to recognize that we have a really growing independent area and realizing that our system has to adjust to that as well. I think people are kind of getting tired of having to pick red or blue, and then that's it. And then other parties kind of don't get the recognition
00:38:27
Speaker
that they deserve in their own ways. So I think that's kind of what I'm recognizing that we're probably going to have to start shifting, probably not the near future, but our future may look different politically. And then another thing is that we still have such a long way to go.
00:38:43
Speaker
Like the fact that we're having screaming matches during debates and just no decorum, no respect, no, any of those things. There's, you know, racial slander and you name it that's happening. And these are the people who want to be the leader of the free world. You know, this is, you know, I just, it's so.
00:39:04
Speaker
discouraging and draining, which is why I kind of, I stay tuned in, but I like to stay tuned in with a filter as far as like the nonsense. Like I just want the facts. Um, and I think it's really difficult. Like our country on our national platform is starting to look like a soap opera. And that's so sad. You know, the things that were normally, you know, villainized or accepted, you know, being making fun of, you know, different groups of people and being disrespectful to women and,
00:39:33
Speaker
you know, all those things have somehow come to the forefront as being acceptable, which is really discouraging. But at the end of the day, whoever wins on November 3rd, there's still work to be done, regardless. Like, I don't think that there's anyone who's going to sigh a relief, whoever wins. So there's so much work that has to be done by young people, by older people, by just American people. Like, we have to get back to a space of
00:40:00
Speaker
realizing that there are some value systems that we need to reinvest in and realize that crazy shouldn't be leading the way. That seems right. So I want to wrap up by asking both of you to project yourselves into the future a bit. So imagine yourself 10 years from now, you obviously are a graduate of Rutgers Law School, you had some
00:40:25
Speaker
some years under your belt, where would you hope that you will be 10 years from now, both in terms of your career, but also thinking about where you hope the world will be 10 years from now? Sehira, do you want to go first? Sure, I'll go first.
00:40:41
Speaker
So 10 years from now, I'm just sort of getting my feet wet in all the different dynamics of law. So I don't want to project necessarily what area of law I'll be practicing, but I'm hopeful that whatever it is, however I'm using my degree, it's in a means of helping people in my community. You know, whether it's doing pro bono hours, being able to assist people with free legal advice, you know, all of those things, regardless of what I'm doing professionally, I know that that's something that I have a commitment to forever, I'm hoping.
00:41:11
Speaker
you know, figuring out hopefully maybe balancing like the work family life and really just hopefully being in a space of education as well. You know, I care a lot about education reform. I feel like
00:41:24
Speaker
The disparities there lead to disparities everywhere else, you know, not being on an equal playing field in education where you're getting sort of your roots planted. You know, that kind of leads to everything else, you know, the prison pipeline, all of those things. So I'm hoping I'm working in some capacity with that.
00:41:43
Speaker
Terrific. And what do you hope for the world? I'm hoping that should I ever have children, they hopefully will not have to have the same conversations that I'm having. They hopefully won't have to fight the same microaggressions in their professional, educational,
00:42:01
Speaker
social lives that I fight and that the people that they surround themselves with and the world that they're living in is going to be for the better. It's better than the one I'm hoping I'm leaving something great for them. So we'll see. Yeah, I love it. Thank you. What about you, Victoria? 10 years from now, where do you hope you are and where do you hope we are as a country?
00:42:22
Speaker
So I hope that, you know, if I continue on this path, like like Zahira, I don't want to say too much. I have lots of experience in immigration at this point, but who knows? But if I stay in immigration, I'm hoping 10 years ICE is abolished by then and immigration attorneys are obsolete. I hope that at least
00:42:44
Speaker
we've started having already these conversations about massive, you know, systemic reform. And I hope that that is solved by the time 10 years comes around. But yeah, I mean, it's just really hard to imagine 10 years from now seeing as though
00:43:02
Speaker
this past year has been such a wild ride. It's lasted for 10 years, right? Literally. But yeah, I hope that people by that time understand that prisons, police, and the criminal justice system do not work, and neither does our two-party system, and that this country was built on genocide and slavery, and hopefully we've started
00:43:29
Speaker
on a path that is about imagining a better future and hopefully building it by that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think what, you know, one of the things that you said that I think is so, is so important is being willing to confront our past and recognizing how our past impacts the present. And that if we can't reconcile those two things that we can't fix the future, you know,
00:43:57
Speaker
And that, I think, is something that's going to be really challenging. And my hope is that the work that you two are doing, that your generation is doing, that that's the kind of work that does get us to a better place for the people who will follow behind us. So I just want to thank both of you just so effusively. This has been so fun. And it's been really wonderful listening to you talk. And I am leaving this conversation
00:44:23
Speaker
feeling like the world is going to be in good hands. And so I'm very, very glad to hear that. So thank you both. Thank you for your time. Keep doing what you're doing. Stay safe. And I look forward to finally seeing you in the building again at some point, hopefully in the not too distant future. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
00:44:52
Speaker
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