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With David Bennett
76 Plays5 years ago
Your hosts Andy Bannister and Kristi Mair are joined by David Bennett for this episode of the Persuasive Evangelism Podcast, recorded live at CreationFest 2019.
Last year David Bennett released "A War of Loves" which was his personal story of transformation from atheist gay activist to Christian theologian. He is from Sydney, Australia and currently studies theology at Oxford.
Questions about the show? Contact Andy on Twitter @andygbannister
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk from Creation Fest
00:00:08
Speaker
Hi, I'm Andy Vanister, and this is Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast, and I'm joined by my co-host, Christy Mayer. We are here in sort of sunny Cornwall at the Creation Fest, a festival outside the doors of where we're recording the podcast today.
00:00:24
Speaker
There are 2,000 people or more camped in the fields. Amazing things happening. But more amazing than that, we are joined on pep talk today by an amazing guest, dear friend, David Bennett. Well, all the way to originally from Australia, but now from Oxford.
David Bennett's Journey: From Activism to Faith
00:00:40
Speaker
David, your book came out a few months ago, War of Loves. Unexpected story of a gay activist discovering Jesus. That is a story right there in the book title. So what is, in a nutshell, the story of the book?
00:00:53
Speaker
So the story of the book or the story of you. Well, you know, I have a kind of story that deserves a good subtitle. Very much the story of someone who was very interested in spiritual questions growing up, but because of my sexuality, which I discovered around the age of 11, you know,
00:01:16
Speaker
an agnostic atheist home, but going to a Christian school was a point of separation for me between God and myself. Christianity and myself. And I really came to perceive Christianity as the source of homophobia in society. And that then led me to become a gay activist when I was about 18, 19 at university. I got really involved in
00:01:46
Speaker
student politics Which you know as the kind of person that would see a Christian poster up on a billboard You know the kind of pale blue Christian Union poster and I just slab a gay marriage march poster on the top, you know, that was kind of
00:02:02
Speaker
I was that angry and angsty about Christian faith and then I ended up having a debate with my uncle in 2008 about whether there was an absolute truth and he received a word that I be saved in three months time and that was in Christmas time 2008 and then three months later I was in a pub with a young filmmaker
00:02:24
Speaker
uh who was uh did completely broke every stereotype of what I thought a Christian was or should be and uh and so she continued she just offered me prayer and in that prayer I encountered Jesus for the first time and my life was turned kind of 180 degrees upside down from that point and so it was just amazing to see that it was exactly three months time that
00:02:48
Speaker
that actually fulfilled itself and I found out about my
Celibacy and Christian Calling: A Perspective
00:02:51
Speaker
uncle's word. And then it was a long process for me to come to where I am now, where I've concluded that, you know, God's calling on my life is a default kind of celibacy, which is actually the calling for every Christian. But there is a kind of unique experience for the same-sex attracted or gay person in that, I think. And so I wrote the book very much to encapsulate
00:03:12
Speaker
all that hangs on that story there's so much that I think God has revealed in it that I felt it was really something that needed to become a book and yeah so that's that's it that's a war of loves that's incredible what a story praise God yeah I am
00:03:31
Speaker
One of the things that, I was at a conference last week actually and somebody came up to me after they asked me a question on homosexuality and the church. What is it that changed for you in terms of going from that angry, you know, plastering over a Christian Union posters to then saying, actually no, I've had this amazing work. What changed for you in how you viewed Jesus and Christianity? Was that anger still there afterwards?
00:04:00
Speaker
just particularly with thinking about the celibacy aspect of that what this person said to me was are we putting an intolerable burden upon folks which even though the default for celibacy is for all of us and for me as a single christian and heterosexual woman i'm defaulting to celibacy of course but he was like but that's not the same you could get married at some point right how do you how do you approach that
00:04:26
Speaker
And it's a really fantastic question. For me, what I'm not saying is that every gay person that becomes a Christian will simply be celibate and that's it as a kind of...
00:04:34
Speaker
a legalistic
Faith, Obedience, and the Gospel of Grace
00:04:36
Speaker
rule that's like a special one for gay people. I think what I'm saying is you need to come and encounter the love of God. Have your desires wrapped around that love. Let God into that and actually give him your homosexuality. Because I think homosexuality like anything can become an idol. Romantic love can become an idol. So we have to understand as Christians that
00:05:02
Speaker
sex and romance is actually only a contingent good for our flourishing. It's not a necessary good. The necessary good we need in our life is the love of God. And so that sets us free from the pressure to have to be with someone. And then in some gay people's lives, like my dear friend Sean Doherty, have dear friends all across the US, they actually get given the grace to be with an opposite sex partner. And so that allows them to live within the remit of what scripture
00:05:29
Speaker
it lays out for people and so yeah for me that's I'm not saying you know I'm not saying this is you know just a simple you must be celibate but I think what I love is God is
00:05:46
Speaker
reclaiming something about the holiness of this church through the question of homosexuality. And I don't think it's unfair for gay people to be celibate. In fact, I think it's prophetic. I think it's actually a calling for us to, we can't hide in idolatry because of homosexual desires. And so that's actually in a weird way a blessing, not a curse. And so I think that's something that
00:06:12
Speaker
We really need to understand the upside down kingdom. On the surface, it might look like that's what's being said. But when it's really the true gospel of grace, that's not what's being said.
Engaging with LGBTQIA Communities: Friendship First
00:06:22
Speaker
And that's what I had to discover myself with Jesus real time in all sorts of contexts, meeting all sorts of Christians. And he led me to that.
00:06:31
Speaker
revelation. It's not obedience by law but obedience by faith and that's a huge difference. I would actually agree that obedience by law does kill and Paul says that the letter of the law kills but the spirit gives life. So we have to understand that as Christians in every area including this.
00:06:53
Speaker
I think what I love about how to approach David, I think I said this to you at one point in the conversation, I think having read a lot of books around this issue from your perspective, people like Sam Albury and others, and also from folks that perhaps the more, what a better word, liberal, and just take a different perspective. What I hugely value about your books and your book and Sam's and others is Jesus comes out so strongly, whereas I sometimes read the other perspective and I come away thinking about the author.
00:07:21
Speaker
And I read your book and I can't really think about Jesus, which I think is so crucial if we can orientate things on him. It doesn't mean all the problems disappear overnight, but at least it gets that perspective. I think there's a stage for people who are same-sex attracted or gay where they want to say, my experience is absolute. And until the church listens to me, I'm not doing anything with Jesus.
00:07:42
Speaker
And I think that's actually a terrible place to be. I was in that place for many years, but you're basically trapped by your sexual identity. It becomes ultimate. And if it's not satisfied, then you're not interested in God or anything. So it's actually a way of rejecting God sometimes, even though on the surface you can make it look Christian and, you know, like heterosexual people can do with their own marriages. So for me, it's all the same problem. It just has a slightly different, you know, bend to it. Yeah.
00:08:12
Speaker
one of the things you mentioned earlier on was the upside down kingdom and I imagine for many who are listening to this podcast they're thinking oh gosh this is really wonderful for those who are able to articulate this upside down kingdom you know eloquently and persuasively but for me when I think of gay friends that I know or neighbours I'm almost just too afraid of getting it wrong there's this big kind of oh gosh I can't touch LGBTQIA
00:08:41
Speaker
questions because I don't know how. And what if I get it wrong? The risk is too great. How would you help us better communicate that upside down kingdom to those, to us as Christians? How would you encourage us to do that? Look, I think that if
Building Inclusive Church Communities
00:08:59
Speaker
you don't know about this topic and you really suck at knowing about it, maybe don't talk about it. Maybe just approach LGBTQI people as if they were like anyone else.
00:09:10
Speaker
And if the topic of sexuality comes up, just say, look, I don't really know much about this. I'm actually learning. Teach me, you know, like have this kind of humble approach to people and you don't have to agree with everything. It's not like listening to someone and learning about their experience is going to make you a heretic or like make you depart from Orthodoxy. In fact, that's the way that we truly build an Orthodox witness is by listening to people in their perspectives, but being able to integrate that with our truth in Jesus.
00:09:40
Speaker
So I actually think that's a vital skill anyway, just in all sorts of areas, not just sexuality. But I would recommend, I think you really do need to read, and you really do need to listen to some content, like get updated, get, you know, there's Mark Yarhouse, a wonderful, you know, psychologist, and all sorts of work on this, who's a trustworthy Christian source.
00:10:00
Speaker
There's obviously all the books that are out there and read scripture and try to take off some of the back lenses of what you think scripture says and really study it. Like for instance 1 Corinthians 6-9 says you know people who have sex with the same sex
00:10:17
Speaker
will not enter the kingdom of god it doesn't say they're going to go to hell it doesn't say all these kinds of things it's talking about entering into the kingdom like a rich person or a you know so there's this blockage there's a something that that person has to overcome to enter instead of all gay people are going to hell which is what you know kind of traditional christianity has almost
00:10:37
Speaker
said at certain points. And so learning to actually let the biblical text correct you. The other thing I'd say is it's not an evangelistic issue. It's a discipleship issue. So a person doesn't have to come to a point of agreeing with you on the question of sexuality. It's not going to happen overnight for a lot of people. You need to introduce them to Jesus and you need to have meals with them, learn how to say, well, I might disagree on that, but let's be friends and just
00:11:07
Speaker
Build friendships with people that really don't agree with you in all sorts of areas and that will make you a better Christian, a Christian that can love and your capacity to love will grow. So I think it's actually learning about how to love. I think that's the essential skill that needs to be built with LGBTQI community.
00:11:25
Speaker
That's fantastic advice. I think another thing you hinted at there, David, that for me strongly came out of your book, and I've noticed in the stories of others whose journeys have had some similarities to your own, is that someone gives their life to Christ.
00:11:40
Speaker
and that process of discipleship begins. I do wonder sometimes if the church expects people to transform entirely in every area of their life overnight. Or it's actually, for me, I think the gospel is clear that Christ begins a work at you, and that work then carries on to the day of Christ Jesus, it says in Philippians actually. And so how do we as Christians build church communities where we can help people through that process of discipleship, but walk with them at the speed that Jesus
00:12:03
Speaker
it's walking to your case, I think you said in the book it wasn't like you became a Christian and then the very morning worker went okay that's goodbye to the gay lifestyle. It took a while and it took Christians encouraging you on that journey. Are there other things that we need to be thinking about as churches and Christian communities to help people who come to Christ from those backgrounds while they go through that process of figuring out now what this
Reassessing Celibacy and Marriage in Church Culture
00:12:25
Speaker
this new creation life looks like. Totally. I think churches should be primed to help people enter into new creation life. And that involves a bar of discipleship for the members that already are in the church. Not in a legalistic, condemning way. You have to be this kind of moral citizen or you're not worthy of being part of the church, which I think is a big mistake we've made in the past with moral issues like divorce and things like that.
00:12:51
Speaker
but it needs to be a place where truth is held and the standard of the law isn't compromised but the way that you come to fulfill God's standard is understood really well because New Testament is very clear that we don't obey God through our own efforts and we don't obey God through some kind of
00:13:14
Speaker
legalistic framework. We come to please God through faith. Paul says the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. And so actually what all people need, gay people included, is to learn how to have faith
00:13:30
Speaker
and express that faith through love towards God. That's the vital skill of discipleship, which is actually worship. It's learning to be a worshipper. And I think for me, the thing that brought breakthrough in my life to the place of a bit stable obedience I'm now in, even though, you know, we all have our hiccups. We're still struggling. We're still going on the road. The thing that really helped me was having the Holy Spirit. That when I wanted to have a boyfriend or start a relationship,
00:13:59
Speaker
I knew the Holy Spirit so deeply. My community had taught me how to do that essential skill of faith, working through love. And so when I was with a boyfriend, you know, after becoming a Christian, the Holy Spirit would be quenched. So I knew that that was
00:14:18
Speaker
this is getting between me and the Holy Spirit. And for me, that was number one. If something got between me and the Holy Spirit, it's out of my life. Goodbye. I cut it off. So actually, it's not just I read the Bible and have this very exegetical, that's important, but it's also real time with the Holy Spirit, learning to live with him and putting God first, tasting something better. Yeah, why would the gay community or anyone for that matter give up their sexuality if they haven't experienced something more transcendent than it?
00:14:46
Speaker
And how would you kind of, because that's, experiencing the spirit is just so profoundly personal and beautiful, how would we go about sharing this love of Christ with LGBTQIA communities?
00:15:03
Speaker
What would be what would be really great kind of? I think a short thing is we've said as the church that you need to behave before you believe and before you belong. So I think as church, we have to shift that to come belong, come learn how to believe and then you'll behave. You know, you'll find the way to live it out. So that's I think it's essential difference in our thinking that we need to learn as Christians.
00:15:31
Speaker
It's not about meeting all the criteria as you walk into the door. It's kind of come and be part of this community. Absolutely. And I think there is a difference in that when I first became celibate, that was a very sensitive time for me because if anyone had any idolatry of romantic love, it would...
00:15:51
Speaker
Really an anger me it's like how dare you as a church leader just joke about that Joke about your marriage as if it's like the most important thing You know how do you like it really hurt me when I discovered that kind of romantic idolatry in the church and it was treated so trivially like this is just normal and
00:16:12
Speaker
And yet I'd been taken to a point of discipleship that was so profound that I
Balancing Community for Singles and Married
00:16:16
Speaker
had to discover to give up my sexuality. And so when heterosexual people in the church treat that question so trivially, and there's this kind of cult of marriage,
00:16:27
Speaker
that really is damaging for me I think that's probably the most damaging thing in the church for people like myself and then you get the other side which is like well let's just change our view on sexuality that's equally as damaging because it's allowing that kind of thing to happen so
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, for me, that was really important. But now, I've walked along the journey, I feel less susceptible to that. I feel like that's okay, people are going to do that, whatever, that's all right. But I think when I first became celibate and I first came alive, we need to be aware of the church, the challenge of that, giving up your sexuality and being willing to live for Jesus.
00:17:07
Speaker
and not be married. I think that's the same for all sorts of people but I think there's an intensity for gay people that needs to be understood experientially. Well it's interesting all sorts of people I was going to say as you were talking there David I think the other thing that resonates for me is I think there's also that that cult of marriage that I think the church has clearly at times I think drifted into isn't just a hindrance for reaching LGBTQI folks. I think also the whole issue of singleness which we haven't got time to go into in detail but I think is related
00:17:36
Speaker
and having a close family member who felt it's been a real struggle now late into their 40s I think to wrestle with the same issue of feeling almost like a second-class citizen within the church because actually the dream stand or the gold stand that is married with 2.4 kids and rather than that as you've repeatedly stressed in the interview that it's rather about being centered around Christ and not building these idolatries around family or sexuality
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think the church has some thinking and some repentance to do here, I suspect. I think so. I think that we need to be able to learn to celebrate marriage alongside celibacy, but the problem is there isn't a tradition that we have
00:18:18
Speaker
that celebrates celibacy in the kind of Protestant church really. It was seen as suspicious, as monastic, as to be rejected. So we have to address that balance and that's going to require the whole church together to get on board.
00:18:34
Speaker
and to break their idols. That's a pretty big call, isn't it, for all of us? And we all struggle with idols, so there also needs to be grace in that struggle. But I really think there is a strong call from God that we have to create communities and life that would make it actually the church, a place of flourishing for single people, actually. So don't stop thinking about it abstractly. Let's think about it practically.
Closing Thoughts on LGBTQIA and the Church
00:19:02
Speaker
Okay, if I wasn't married,
00:19:04
Speaker
you know, what would make the church a more welcoming place? It's a quite simple question for people that are single. Howard, you know, even in the ministry I work for, when we go away on retreats now, before we never had anything, we would just talk about having a family and being an itinerant minister. But now we have two groups for singles and married to go and think about how can we flourish well whilst serving in ministry. So I think, yeah, it's just that subtle shift that can make a world of difference.
00:19:35
Speaker
David, that's been an absolutely fascinating conversation. Such a privilege. Thanks for having me, guys. Thanks for taking the time. And what's interesting, you know, here we are at Creation Fest and you've got some sessions coming up. What I'm hugely encouraged about is to see the huge numbers of people coming to your sessions, Christopher, you and Sarah as well, talking similar things. And so I finally, it's exciting to see the church waking up, but we need to think about this, you know, biblically, pastorally.
00:19:59
Speaker
evangelistically. So David, thank you for helping us. Thank you, Andy. Thank you, Steve. Such a pleasure. And thanks for listening. Until next time.