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Episode 27: What games don't hold up as much online?
72 Plays11 months ago
Join us as we start talking before introducing the show, but we get around to it. We also discuss what BGA lacks for some games.
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Transcript
Introduction & Humor on Podcast Intros
00:00:01
Speaker
Um, I was just thinking what you're talking about. I don't think we introduced the show at all whatsoever. We can put it in post.
00:00:11
Speaker
Yeah, I thought we were doing something different where we just do it at the very end. Yeah. If you're listening, you know what you're here for. Sometimes we do that like little 10 second interlude before we do it. This is just a 16 minute interlude before we do the intros. I'm not saying to do an intro, I'm just saying I don't think we did an intro. Let's carry on.
Shane's Gaming Strategies in 'Feast for Odin'
00:00:50
Speaker
Shane is just being fucking obliterated the last few games. So I think we should have him on to talk about that. I don't know. I wonder whether Shane Shane comes across to me as a sort of person that if he's rushed for time, he'll just go and press buttons and then move on. Like, yeah, he doesn't seem to think much on BGA. Like perfect example, that game, I don't know if you've seen it, but that feast for Odin game that we're in. I just want to have my turn on doing on Facebook and let them know.
00:01:18
Speaker
Well, I just went in and there's two pillaging spots, right? One requires two workers, one requires three. That's the only difference. He went to the one that requires three.
00:01:29
Speaker
Now there is no reason to do that. You're just burning an extra workout. So I'm like, Oh, okay. That's a bit interesting. Um, but then consequently I went to the two space and I got to roll the dice three times. Do you know how you're trying to go for the highest dice value? I saw you. I rolled, I rolled a one, a one and a two. You got to be a fucking D 12 and I read a one, one and a two. Yep. So that was total waste of a turn. But anyway, I, my last turn was wailing and you know how you got to get low numbers with wailing. I got a nine and 12.
00:02:00
Speaker
You stole my role and I stole yours. I did. You should have swallowed it. Great. I love the one. That is still one of those games that I have no idea how you play. Like I played it and you know my, my, you know, my plan of attack is always I'll learn it as I go. I did not learn anything as I went on that game. I can see that. Yep. I need to play that game live. Yeah. I was actually, that was one of the things I was going to mention when I, when I made that
00:02:26
Speaker
idea of like talking about games that don't really work well on BGA.
Challenges of Learning Games on BGA
00:02:31
Speaker
I reckon almost any game that you don't already know well doesn't work well on BGA.
00:02:38
Speaker
Like I think it's a hard platform to learn a game, but it's also a hard platform to play a game that you're not a hundred percent across because you can't ask qualifying questions. So you can't be like, Oh, hang on. If I go here, what happens? Like you just got to test it out and go, Oh shit. No, no turns out I can't buy that tile cause I don't have something. I don't know what I don't have, but I don't have it. You know, whereas if we were in a game and like if, imagine if Twilight and period was on there, which is obviously your dream DJ.
00:03:07
Speaker
Imagine if we're on there and we're playing a game and I try to do something like, and I'm trying to do a move. How many questions did I ask you when we played that game the other month? And that was like the fifth time I played that game. So you throw that on BGA and I can't ask you. I'm just going off. I'll just try this, see what happens. And yeah, I think that's where it falls down. So, and we haven't actually had a go yet because the
00:03:32
Speaker
random with the didn't make us work. So I have been playing the online version of Twilight Imperium. So Helen, you might have missed it, but there's a website where they've coded in the game. So you go in and play Twilight Imperium online and the game is they're all turn based. So like, you know, it'll take forever like I'm
00:03:50
Speaker
I've got five games going and the most in a month is like turn two.
Playing Twilight Imperium Online
00:03:55
Speaker
But the thing that the way they do it is every single minute step has a confirm button. So there's almost no one do's.
00:04:05
Speaker
That's what I like with a BGA game. You go, cool, I'm going to do this, and then this, and the second thing didn't work, I'll just undo it and do my whole turn again. It doesn't usually lock you into something, so you can do a better trial and error. So this thing goes, okay, it's your turn to play in abilities before you do anything. You want to do any abilities before you do anything.
00:04:24
Speaker
Yes or no? Then you hit no. Then every other person gets a chance to do an ability before you do something. So just to like put a token down, everybody gets a chance to stop you and they have to confirm it. And so it's going to take a really long time to play a game that way. And so even the, I had a round of combat and it was four days, I think, just to have one round of combat.
00:04:50
Speaker
You've just convinced me not to join your next game. I don't want to join any of these games. It doesn't even sound fun. I think the benefit of a game like that, that is a 12 hour game potentially, is that the banter that happens around the table, if you take that out, it's just a very long game. It doesn't have
Live Session Recap: Dune Imperium
00:05:11
Speaker
a huge amount going on really.
00:05:13
Speaker
Like the game itself, if you saw it, you would never go, this is a 12 hour game. Like it took us that long. I appreciate that. But A, it didn't feel like it was that long. And B, you've got all the enjoyment of the banter around the table. You take that out. I can imagine it would just not be as fun. It would be hilarious to think that the one year anniversary of that game we played
00:05:37
Speaker
I'd be hilarious to think that you might not be finished any of those five games that you're playing on that website. Well, the worst thing is I started eight of them. And so as soon as someone doesn't take their turn, a week later, they delete the game. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's, it's not a good way to do it and definitely would not recommend to anybody. But you know, PGA did tease, I think there was a chance I think that it goes on and
00:06:05
Speaker
I think BGO do a better implementation like this website. It's basically a tabletop simulator mod with a little bit of rules. It doesn't work real well.
00:06:18
Speaker
BGA, like you say, Dave, if there's a, if there's a step that you can't go back from, it'll tell you, like it'll prompt you and say, are you sure if you make this decision now, we can't like, you know, in, in ArcNova, for example, if you want to draw from the deck, it's like, you can draw from the deck, but no one do's after this. And I like that. Yeah. By the way, she can do everything you want and then undo it and go back to the sell the two.
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't like those cards though. Yeah. Well, the big shoulders is the one for me. Like when you're making new goods and you've got to buy everything, it's like a structured order to it. And you get to the end and you're like, oh, I needed one more good and I can't buy it because I've already done like 15 things. It's annoying to reset it and have to do it all, but at least you can fix your mistakes that time.
00:07:00
Speaker
Yeah, because there's no impact of doing that. There's no impact of getting to the end and saying, yeah, okay, that didn't work. I can redo it because you haven't drawn cards and you haven't done things that are undoable and you don't know more information now than you had at the start. And if we're sitting around at the table, it's not like we're all going to go, nope, you didn't buy you good. Even though nothing else has happened, you're not getting you good. Has anyone been playing any live games? I played Dude Imperium today with Helena and she loved it.
00:07:31
Speaker
Which is exciting, because she has been avoiding that game like the plague. And it wasn't until we played a game with Joe and Shannon that they were like, oh, have you played Dude Imperium? And she's like, no, it doesn't look like a game I'd like. And they were like, oh, no, it's really good. I'm like, yeah, we should play it. And so I taught her in RAF today. And she won. And I think the score was 11-10-8, so a really close game. And yeah, you could just, there was one moment where
00:08:01
Speaker
It was clearly going to be the last round. What's the name of that spot that gives you the five workers in the combat for six spice? I think it's in the spacing. Yeah, yeah. I was first player and I'm like, I'm going straight there, but I didn't draw a card that gave me the option to go there.
00:08:21
Speaker
Um, so I went and drew cards and then I got a card that would give me the option. But the whole time I'm like, don't go to that spot. Don't go to that spot. Don't go to that spot. And then she went to the spot and I, and I was like, at one point I'm like, ah, damn it. There's the game. Like I can't come back from this. But on the other hand, I'm like, it's so cool that you figured out you needed to go to that spot. Like, like she figured out the new answers and she had, um, what's not the tone. What's the other eight car that allows you to move a worker. Um, the quizzes, et cetera.
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So she had that card as well. And she deliberately waited until she took the Mentat and she waited until I was done. And then she moved that worker so no one else could go there and get the five workers. I'm like, ah, you've this is awesome. So she really lose this game. Yeah, yeah. She played very well. And that's a sign of someone who picked up the game, which is, you know, it's just all you want to say. And Raft did pretty well with these eight points. That's pretty good.
00:09:20
Speaker
11 days until Dune Part 2 comes out. Well, that was the carrot, right? I deliberately said to Raffle, we should watch Dune so we can go to the movies and watch the second one. He's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then as soon as the movie finished, I'm like, we could also play the board game. We could learn how to do that. So yeah, very cute. The movie's just a giant board game. It's just pieces moving around a board.
00:09:48
Speaker
Well, the first movie was kind of like that, wasn't it? It's just a whole lot of preempting something that's going to happen. Do you reckon they have golf on Arrakis?
Surprise Birthday & Board Games
00:10:00
Speaker
Like, and would the course be like very hard hit the fairway? It's just one little fairway, one little green in an ocean of sand. Yeah, you just constantly in a bunker. Yeah.
00:10:16
Speaker
Just in that and people going, what did? Well, actually, I think we've already got our tickets for the new one and we've lined up. We're all going to go and see the first one in the cinemas like a couple of days before. Oh, cool. Oh, nice. How are you going with? The usual June crowd, Troy and G-Money. Luke is not a fan, so he won't be coming. Oh, very cool. Yeah, Troy is a June mega fan.
00:10:47
Speaker
I'm pretty sure he's had spice at some point. Yeah. So he looks so beautiful. What about you guys? Any live on the table games lately? Yeah, I played Wormspan. Oh, cool. Tell us about it. Yeah, it was good. So I think people were a bit confused. It's similar to Wingspan, but it's very different in terms of the play.
00:11:15
Speaker
like how you play it. So basically you've got instead of the three zones that you put your eggs in, you've got three caves, dragon's caves, and you've got to excavate the cave. And then once you've excavated the cave, then you can put a dragon in and you start with six coins, one egg and three resources. And so you have to pay a coin for most of your moves. Some moves will cost you two. So a dragon might
00:11:43
Speaker
It costs you a coin to put the dragon down, but it also costs you what's on the card. So it might be three resources at Milincore. It might be another coin and a crystal and all of this. So you've got to pay for that.
00:11:56
Speaker
And then you've got to pick up cards. It was funny, I played with my daughter and she won because I just could not get eggs. And you need eggs to be able to play, like excavate into the later two zones similar to Wingspan. You've got the egg price at the top.
00:12:15
Speaker
for the ladder so you've got one zone that's open so you can put dragon straight there and then three zones that you need to excavate the first zone is three free and then the second one costs an egg and then the third costs you two eggs plus the coin it costs you to play them so but no it was it was really good uh it was very different
00:12:34
Speaker
but it was really good. And we'd played Wingspan Asia a couple of days earlier, the two-player version. So she was expecting that and went, oh, this is really different. So, but she enjoyed both of them. And she was like, can I teach the others wormspan? And I'm like, hold your horses.
00:12:51
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And halfway through explaining the rules to her, she's like, can we just start playing? And I'm like, oh, do you understand? Because I don't. Can you teach me how to play? And she's like, oh, no. And I'm like, well, then maybe we keep reading the rules. I wonder where she gets that from. You're just figuring it out as she goes along.
Comparing 'Wingspan' and 'Wormspan'
00:13:07
Speaker
I have no idea.
00:13:09
Speaker
Um, but no, it was good. It was, I know that, um, I read some, some things where people were like, Oh, they don't love it. Or they do like it. You know, it's been a little bit divided, but I, you know, I think it's a beautiful game as the original. It's very different because you're not paying with eggs all the time. Like the coins are the things and you can do things to get extra coins. And they've got like a track that you can move on that gives you free things. So some of the things you're dragging when you play it, it might say,
00:13:37
Speaker
you know, move on the track and you move and you get a free egg or you get a free dragon card or a free location card. And then occasionally, and then at two points on this round track, you can then place a marker into the middle thing and that might let you play cards for free or get victory points for the end and it just comes down to victory points.
00:13:58
Speaker
And I think she finished with 82 and I finished with 68. Picture points at the end of the game. But yeah, it was good. It was definitely worth it. And it didn't take you five hours to play your third one.
00:14:11
Speaker
No, strangely, because it did take me five hours when I first gave them wingspan. No, it was, it was a short. It probably took a couple of hours for us to play. And by that time she was super tired and cold and she just wanted to go to bed. So I was kind of like helping her at the end, but it was good. There's lots of ability to do
00:14:32
Speaker
multiples like I had a thing that gave me a free place a card and that dragon let me place another dragon so I end up placing three dragons for the price of one and that's sort of how I got things on my mat in the end because I wasn't getting the eggs.
00:14:45
Speaker
So yeah, so you excavate, which is placed like a location, you place dragons, or there's a third thing, which is the same thing as gaining food, gaining eggs, et cetera. You do this sort of, you've got a little climber man and he goes through the caves and gets things dependent on how many places you've used, but he goes left to right instead of right to left.
00:15:06
Speaker
And then once he gets stopped the minute you've you can have excavated, but unless you've got a dragon there, he'll stop at that point. But there's things you get regardless. So on the top row, you might get a food and then you might get a dragon card and then a food and then an egg, but you have to.
00:15:22
Speaker
have put dragons in between and then those dragons can have when activated abilities, same as the other. So when you've got when activated, when played, end of round, end of game.
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah, but no, definitely worth a play. I really enjoyed it. I don't think one replaces the other. I think there's room for both. It's interesting. I'd like to play it because, like you say, it's got mixed reactions. But from what I've seen, the mixed reactions were people weren't interested in it initially. Like, why are we getting this? But then everyone who seems to have played it seems to think it's great.
00:16:03
Speaker
Most people are saying that they enjoy it more than wingspan, which is interesting. But I mean, whether you enjoy it more or less is kind of irrelevant, but just the fact that it's seems like a really solid game is what everyone's saying.
00:16:15
Speaker
And I think it would have been a disservice to have just made it a wrap of wingspan, just made it wingspan with dragons. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not the whole point of Stonema Games is their thematics are so good. And so to not do that and make it be relevant, like the coins make sense with dragons. Do you know what I mean? Like, and then, because dragons hoard gold.
00:16:37
Speaker
you know so that makes sense and then the caves and all of that so i thought yeah i think it's really clever and it's yeah i think it's good that it's different but i think some people expected it to just be wingspan with dragons and it's not that looks similar but plays very differently um i was just thinking what you're talking about i don't think we introduced the show at all whatsoever we can put it in post
00:17:06
Speaker
Yeah, I thought we were doing something different where we just do it at the very end. Yeah. If you're listening, you know what you're here for. Sometimes we do that like little 10 second interlude before we do it. This is just a 16 minute interlude before we do the intros. I'm not saying to do an intro, I'm just saying I don't think we did an intro.
00:17:28
Speaker
Yeah, let's carry on. Done. We were too busy tin wagging about board games. Exactly. And it has been a lot of board games lately. Like we, I, I have got more games out of shrink this in the last two weeks. I think that I have a whole year before that. That's amazing. Most of them are all of the same game. So unlike others, I got on the dice around bandwagon, but with the individual boxes of two characters rather than the whole kit and caboodle.
00:17:58
Speaker
So I never opened any options. I had like eight boxes of sitting, of characters sitting there, just like a one-by-one character. So we decided we're going to have a bit of an easier game now, a couple of weeks ago, and we just grabbed a few random things out. So we ended up getting out of shrink. Steampunk rally group, which did not go down very well. Have any of you guys played
00:18:24
Speaker
I did get it and the kick started a few years ago, but I moved it on as well. So yeah, that probably says all it needs to be said. I've played it once or twice. Yeah. Yeah. I think a couple of us had played it. And so we thought it would be all right to sort of have a go on teachers. We went and it didn't go well. Um, there was very little attention paid and ended up being a bit of a shit pod, but then we got out dice road and we just started chucking a couple of battle yards. You know, random dice at each other. Everybody loved it.
00:18:54
Speaker
And to the point that next week they came back and we played again. We, everybody had with three or four games, I think we, um, G money brought his Marvel ones until we mixed and match and everything. And then we grabbed out, uh, the street fighter miniatures game sitting on the shelf for a while. And so we had a run of that, a six player game of that, which was fantastic as well. Not as fun as thoughts, but still very fun. And yeah, it's been a big chunk of the first part of the year learning and playing void four.
00:19:24
Speaker
which is very, very challenging. As far as a big, heavy game goes, we had, I think, gee, I added up about 10 hours of learning to be able to try and play this game. I love that, though, because I know that you haven't been as excited about games. The fact that you've managed to get some new ones out and some big ones out is really exciting.
00:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, so Steamboat Rally made the sci-fi and I was sort of planning out a bunch to settle, so I thinned the shelves down a bit more and looking at shifting on a whole bunch of extra things. But yeah, it was good to try a few new things and to... Yeah, like Steamboat Rally, I think, was about three years ago, Steve, maybe? Two years? Yeah, yeah, sounds about right. Yeah, late 2020 or 21, something like that. Yeah.
00:20:12
Speaker
and just sat there since then. So it was nice to see them on the table. Well, we threw a birthday party for one of our crew.
00:20:23
Speaker
And we'd only just found out when his birthday is, right? So it's on Australia Day. He's managed to avoid telling us that for four years. So we found out it was a big birthday. He was turning 30. He was super excited. And so we, you know, got balloons and got him presents and just randomly said, hey, let's have a games night. He didn't think it was for anything. I've never seen someone walk into a room and immediately want to leave it. He was mortified.
00:20:51
Speaker
And suddenly we're just like removing like all like, cause I had all the confetti of thirties, we're just removing them from the table and being like, happy Thursday. And they're like, it's Friday. And I'm like, actually it was Wednesday. I said happy Wednesday and it was Thursday. And I'm like, ah, you know? So it was like, we sang happy Thursday to you for the cake and everything. So that it wasn't a thing, but it was really great. And we got a lot of good games out and it ended up being a really lovely night. But yeah, we played a game called pictures. Have you guys played pictures?
00:21:21
Speaker
It wasn't the Spill the Jarras a few years ago, didn't it? Yeah, it's a cool game. So you literally have pictures laid out on the table. So you've got, I think, four rows of four. And they're like a, you know, a BCD down the side and one, two, three, four on the side. And then you all get given a different medium to say what your picture is.
00:21:44
Speaker
So one person's got a bunch of rocks. Another person has two shoelaces. Another person has... Yeah, I played that. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. So it's a really good game and you move what medium you have each time and then eventually it gets taken out of the game.
00:22:03
Speaker
You can end up, you just draw the tile numbers, like A4, A2, B4, from a bag, but there's multiples of them. So two people can be doing the same picture at the same time, but one person's got pieces of the Lego and the other person has like shoelaces. So it was really fun. We had a lot of laughs playing that. Who did you play it with G-Money? Oh, I played it with Haig. Yeah, it's good fun though, yeah.
00:22:28
Speaker
Oh, it's fantastic. I didn't know what it was called, to be honest. I've never known what that game was. Like, I remember it really fondly and I'm like, I was wondering what that was. And then you said the shoelace thing. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, that's it. Cause there's like rocks and sticks and bits and pieces. Yeah. It's great. And what's really good is you'll have randomly, occasionally we'd have the same people, like different people get the same picture and the same thing to do it with.
00:22:56
Speaker
So they just make the exact same thing that the last person made to show it. So, you know, that always brings a few laughs when you're able to reiterate. But yeah, that was a really good game. And then we played flame craft again, which I love. I don't remember what else we played, but yeah, it was just a really good night.
00:23:19
Speaker
I managed to play Mind MG MT the other day for the
Playing 'Undaunted Stalingrad'
00:23:25
Speaker
first time. I'd always wanted to play it, but never had a chance. Thought it was pretty damn good for the hidden movement genre. Played a couple of hidden movement genre games, but this one I thought was probably the best because it's a real like you work together to track them down.
00:23:47
Speaker
Whereas other games are a lot more like, oh, you think they're there. This is like you can actually, like you can nail them. Like, you know, a hundred percent where they are, which I thought was pretty good. Um, played a lot of it's a wonderful world.
00:24:02
Speaker
love that game um played that a few times actually at the tabletop rather than on bga oh nice um what else did i do finished kingdom death monster we played that for nearly two and a half years and finished the campaign of that which was
00:24:19
Speaker
Bit of sweet. We didn't know whether we wanted it to end or didn't want it to end. We were really worried about fighting the last boss. We were like, there's no way we can beat him. No way at all. And we managed to pull out a win with two of us died. One of us came back to life for one turn, and the other person would have died the next turn. And that person killed them and then died. So there was one person left.
00:24:46
Speaker
So it's about as epic as you could possibly hope for. Nice. Which was pretty cool. But other than that, nothing else. Been playing a few games with Raf, which has been really nice. It's really enjoying the fact that he's old enough to get
00:25:04
Speaker
bigger games now and also be interested enough to want to play them. So I played Raiders of the North Sea the other day and it's been so long since I've done such a great game and I know it's a Shen game. So ding, there we go. First time in the episode. It's probably the Shen game that I haven't played in the longest because obviously it's older now and with all the hype around the South Tigris, you don't often think to go back
00:25:32
Speaker
you know, two entire eras beforehand, but played it with the two, taught him the game with the two expansions included. So, because it's such a great game with those expansions. And oh man, again, it was so good. Like, it's such, for such a simple game, and we only played it two player. I don't think I've ever played that game two players before, but it's really quick because you're literally placing a worker doing an action, picking up a worker doing an action.
00:25:59
Speaker
And then it's the next player's turn. So it just churned through. I think we probably played it all over in less than an hour. And again, it's that same thing. When he starts doing things because they're the right thing to do, because he's figured it out, you just sort of sit back and go, yeah, this means we'll play it again.
00:26:20
Speaker
It's not just me saying, oh, these are your options. What do you think you should do? It's him going, well, if I go here and kill the Jarl, then this guy will have all this damage on him. So then if I go there, I can sacrifice him to Valhalla and that'll get me victory points. And he's just sort of putting it all together. And I'm just like, yes, yes.
00:26:38
Speaker
Um, so that was cool. Um, he also really wanted to learn video culture, which was, I thought was a bit of a weird game for a 10 year old to be like, I want to play that. Um, so we did, he probably didn't pick that one up as much. We played that with Helen. So play the three of us and, you know, it was very clear that.
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah, he was just putting workers down and seeing what happened. He didn't really pick up the game as much in that one. But if you ask him, he still loved it. But probably the one that has stood out, we played it four times. We just finished the fourth episode today. And that's Undaunted Stalingrad.
00:27:19
Speaker
So I think I've mentioned before that we played through all of Undaunted Normandy and all of Undaunted North Africa. And for those who don't know Undaunted, it's like this deck builder war game where you've got your troops out on the map and let's say
00:27:34
Speaker
I've got a rifleman. I start with one rifleman card in my hand, but I've got four in its supply. If I bolster, I can add more of those to my hand. But whenever one dies, you have to remove a card from your hand.
00:27:51
Speaker
It's a really interesting deck builder because you want to keep your hand skinny so you can get your good cards. But at the same time, if you keep them skinny, then all of your troops are really vulnerable out on the board. So it's a good little mix of taking away that need to trash cards because you're hurting yourself if you do that.
00:28:13
Speaker
and it's a really good combat thing like most of the time an attack will need you got a d10 and an attack will need it like a six or so or higher to hit so there's a good chance of a miss and you can kind of liken that to someone you know to you know a fairly fair distance away taking a pot shot probably not going to kill somebody but might and it's also got this great thing where you can just target anyone on the board
00:28:39
Speaker
And if you roll a zero, it's just an insta-hit. It doesn't matter how far away they are. And that's just liking it to just a lucky shot. So that's really cool. But anyway, that's undaunted. But what Stalingrad does, it's a campaign game. The other ones, they're great. They'll be like, you're replaying this actual event that happened in the Second World War. And you're replaying this actual event that happened in the Second World War.
00:29:05
Speaker
This is replaying in events that happened in the Second World War, but it's more about the state will change based on what has happened in this, like, I claimed an area. So now I own that area on the map. And in the last one we played, I damaged a tile. So it gets removed from the game and gets replaced with a similar tile with less strength and less
00:29:29
Speaker
You know, safety, I guess, around it. And if we destroy it again, it just becomes rubble and you can drive through it or whatever else. So and what's cool is it's very much like not choose your own events because it depends on the winner. But our next scenario is 5D and we're at 5D because
00:29:47
Speaker
I won the first game which led us to 1B instead of 1A and then Raph won the second game which set us to 3C instead of 3E or whatever else. So the storyline completely changed depending on who wins each scenario and you each have a book
00:30:05
Speaker
which gives you the prologue to the story of what's about to happen. And it tells you which chapter to read. And that chapter is also based on what happened. So you're reading the story that links to what just happened out on the board in the previous mission. It's really cool.
00:30:22
Speaker
So definitely worth it if you're like a deck builder and you don't hate the idea of war games but you don't want to play like one of those huge big war games with the little chits and whatnot. This is far more accessible because it is essentially just a deck builder.
00:30:38
Speaker
But yeah, we've been loving that. And it's one of those things where Raf has this tendency with legacy games, where he wants to play them once and then be like, yeah, that's it. Where I'm like, come on, man. Like we just unlock stuff. Like, let's just keep going. Let's play another mission. He's like, no, we'll play it on like tomorrow afternoon. I'm like, but then we've got to pack it all up. And can we just play? Like, I'm the kid. I'm just like, come on, I want more. I want more. And he's like, no, no.
00:31:03
Speaker
So, but yeah, no, we played that through four missions, which has been awesome. So that's probably, like I said, my at home on the table board game person is definitely rough at the moment. And Helen played a couple of games as well, which has been nice, but we haven't gotten back to, haven't been over to Joe's yet. We're supposed to go there Saturday night, but Helen's been a bit crook. So we didn't get a chance to continue our Ticket to Ride legacy.
00:31:27
Speaker
game yet but uh that has been amazing too so that'll be hopefully this week we'll get a chance to get that back anyway that's me lovely it's awesome so i'm super excited about the game day in may indeed quick plug briscon doing a two-day gaming weekend same as we did last time but
00:31:50
Speaker
I think we're over 50% to get sold now.
Excitement for Briscon Event
00:31:54
Speaker
It should be a good weekend, but it's May the 4th, so it's kind of spacey themed this year.
00:32:06
Speaker
No, no, no, no. That's exactly what I wanted to talk about. I bought my tickets. I bought tickets for my whole, all my friends. So I'm like, I can buy them for you if you like. They're like, okay. I'm like, okay. And they're like, we owe you lunch. I'm like, sure. So no, that's very exciting. So if it's space themed, are you going to get Twilight Imperium out on the table? Twilight description? You know, maybe, yeah. That could be, you know, um,
00:32:32
Speaker
So we're looking at maybe running a game that we actually want to play like a space game. So I think Eclipse is in the mix. Space Base. Yeah, I think I will try and do a Twilight inscription. Like I think that'll be good. Have you got any Star Wars games? Yeah, Joe wanted to get out of Rim. I think that's the spacey theme game. He doesn't get to play very much when he wants to. I have an alien RPG if you want to go really left of field.
00:33:04
Speaker
You do? Yeah, I bought it for Liam. It's never been played. Sitting on my shelf waiting to be played. It should be good. I think it'd be nice to just actually play a couple of games that we want to play.
00:33:22
Speaker
bring people along. It's a fairly, I'd say, established group. A lot of the people that are buying tickets are, you know, members of the group already and they come along for a lot of the other regular stuff. So, I think they're used to game days and how they function and they can jump in, teach people, play games, do the whole thing. Yeah. And you've got somewhere to sell all these games you're trying to get rid of. Yeah. Well, that's the real benefit, I think, of Briskon. They got that second hand thing where you just can't dump all your stuff and they mark it off and make sure it doesn't stolen and give you most of the cash at the end.
00:33:53
Speaker
Yeah. I might have to actually get rid of some games. Ooh. Ooh. Maybe at first. You said you'd never do that. I know, but there is some games that I've literally, I'll have to play them again first. But those games, if they're just going to sit there and then never, like I would never do it with a game that I play.
00:34:13
Speaker
Like it even, and even, you know, my love affair with, uh, Western Legends, I would still never sell it. Like it's still a great game. It's still a game I would want to have for people to play. It's just not going to be my choice, but I want it. There is an option for like planets. I'd have to get that out and try to get and go, do I like this game? Do I get this game?
00:34:35
Speaker
I also think though, before this podcast started, the value of the OC board game was pretty low. But I think just because of this podcast, like you could sell that and retire. That game is never going anywhere. It has a shining space on the shelf. Like, you know, the shining star in my collection. It transcends board games. It's a whole lot of things. It's the fifth element.
00:35:06
Speaker
Yeah, I have to buy another copy of Charlie paddy just to sell it. There's a giveaway. Like the ring, like you play you got seven days and then we'll just make a label that says legacy and we'll just splash them. Additional rule pack into it about the fire and everything. Yeah.
00:35:29
Speaker
The additional rules is a pair of scissors. Yeah. So good. Well, I ended up, G-Money remember. So I don't know how I got this Kickstarter, but it was a very early group buy. So it was called the Movie Movie Game. And it was done by a group of guys that do a podcast and it's a, they try and get you to guess and put together the names of movie titles to make them into a kind of pun.
00:35:58
Speaker
So it would be like an example would be a young lion cub goes on a journey and meets an English spy movie with Ray Fiennes. And you've got to say the Lion Kingsman.
00:36:15
Speaker
right i love that game i want that game it is garbage i would love it if you have it yeah i feel like you should get it right now and give us a couple more and we should see if we can get some
00:36:30
Speaker
And that's a bit. Charlie Putty had like 10 times the length and the stability of this game. G-Money and I got it out once. We looked at about five cards of it. Yep, that was fun and put it back. I did the same thing over Christmas with like a group of MIM friends. I think we did five cards, one person out of the six guessed one once. And that was it. I just sat there and just said these things and everybody got them like, okay, we'll put that one away. And so that's our, I think that's our legacy.
00:37:01
Speaker
slash Firestarter game for this year. No! Honestly, I probably would love it. That would go down really well with Liam. That's the type of game where he'd be like, yep, I can do this. Or he'd like his family. He'd be like, yep, we got this. It is all yours. It is. $300, mom. It's a steal. Yeah. It'll go next to the OC.
00:37:23
Speaker
I would love to make another crappy card game on Kickstarter and have one of the Kickstarter stretch goals be a fire pit. Just a little fire pit that you can, and that's the legacy element right there, and just call it the charty party fire pit. Yeah. Bonus. Look, there you go. I just stitched up. It is 25 US to buy. This game? Yeah. It's about 50 bucks too much. But don't you own it?
00:37:52
Speaker
Oh, I know. Yeah. It's not like, you know, $300 out of printing. I'm wasting money burning. Well, now it isn't. It wasn't that weird. So what you're saying is if you see it, if you see it at the Briskon secondhand market, just avoid it. No, no, you can have it. It is all yours. I want you to find it now and let us play some games. Sounds awesome. I will. Why are you doing
Book Recommendation: 'Dave Gorman vs the Rest of the World'
00:38:20
Speaker
that? I was wondering what you were selling before you actually sell them.
00:38:22
Speaker
See now you can walk away and talk to us still because you've got, or at least hear us. He's taking his bike. Oh no, he's still attached to my head.
00:38:35
Speaker
I was going to suggest, too. I mentioned this to G Money last night and a few others before Gloomhaven. But I have a recommendation that's not a board game, but it's a book. And it's related because I read this book firstly when it came out in like 2012 because it was by my favorite comedian, which is Dave Gorman.
00:38:54
Speaker
And it's called Dave Gorman versus the rest of the world. And back in 2012, I wasn't in the board games. So I was just a fun story about this, you know, this adventure that he went on, which is basically before he had a day before a show and he was in a town that he didn't know. So he put on Twitter, anyone want to play a game, a live game, not like a not like a video game.
00:39:16
Speaker
Um, and people replied and then he just choose someone and go and play a game with them. And he started choosing the most random games. Like, so he played ket, which I actually have played before. It's a laser chess game where you've got to try and try and knock out the Pharaoh by having a laser bounce off mirrors and stuff. And he played cube or cub the, um, yeah.
00:39:38
Speaker
Yeah, you see that around every now and again. That is amazing. And Finska and a few other games, but also just like table tennis. But what's cool is I'm listening to it. I'm listening to it on an Audible at the moment, so reading in inverted commas. Because it's been that long since I've read it, but now that I'm into the board game hobby, it's so much more relatable. It's
00:40:01
Speaker
it's such a cool like sort of wind like even when he talks about playing games with people rather than online or whatever else the whole time I'm like yes this is this is our hobby you know and it doesn't necessarily get into hobby games as much he plays a few games he plays a game of guess who with a guy at a pub um but like you know I think I can't remember I haven't listened to it all in full again but I'm pretty sure he plays katana a couple of times and
00:40:27
Speaker
Um, but yeah, I honestly, I don't remember what he played. So I'm really keen just to listen to it in full, but if you're looking for a, if you, if you drive a bit and you're looking for a different thing, once you've finished listening to this amazing podcast, um, yeah, Dave Gorman versus the rest of the world. If you're into the board game hobby, I think you'd appreciate it. So I think it's, it's something that you could easily do, like, especially if you're a bit, you know, a bit of a traveler, like not like us. I think we're a bit more sort of stable stay at home people and maybe more
00:40:55
Speaker
board game hobby. So that, but yeah, if you're flying around and going to different cities, it'd be very easy for you to just put on a sort of social media post. Hey, anybody you want to catch up and play a board game while you're in town. I once had this crazy idea and it's still there. I still might do it one day if I am financially sound enough to ever do it, but I want to do a YouTube channel where I just go and play people's favorite games with them.
00:41:21
Speaker
So I go to your house and I play your favorite game with you. We do a little bit of a review of the game, tell you what I think. You tell me why it's your favorite game, blah, blah, blah. Done. And then just sort of travel around playing everyone's favorite game for a while. I reckon that'd be awesome. But of course, I would have to fund that. And that's where it stops.
00:41:50
Speaker
It's been two weeks I've gone to every single board game person in the city. Maybe you need to make it a different YouTube channel. This one is you just knock on every random stranger's door and force them to play a board game with you.
00:42:03
Speaker
This is my favorite game and you will play it. I don't care if you've only played UNO before, you will learn TOT while calm and we'll play it now. Yeah, no, I don't mind that. Like, and it'd be easier to do, like, especially, I think you kind of do that already, like, with the people that you know, when you come to Brisbane, you just go, hey, I'm going to tee up this person to play this game. So, you know, you saw, what, 20 people and played 50 games while you're down here.
00:42:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's it. Right. And like, you know, if we, if we all caught up, you can literally film six episodes in one night because we just all play each other's favorite game and you do the quick, you know, did the quick cutaways and whatnot and edit it all back in. And that's six weeks of content right there. I want to know who you're playing with that you can get six games in a night.
00:42:48
Speaker
It's a very long night. It would be an incredibly long night. Now that Dee Dee's favorite game isn't TI4, it's a lot easier. Yes. Being there, done that. All right. All right, Dee Dee. Are you ready? Here we go. Are you sure you want to do this? Yes. You won't think any less of me for this being a thing that we do. I will. Not at all. OK. All right. We'll make it a segment of the show. All right. I'll keep a stack of the cards next to me.
00:43:19
Speaker
Are you ready? Let your conscience be the guide as this real boy escapes from a deep south chain gang and embarks on an odyssey to avoid becoming a man of constant sorrow.
00:43:41
Speaker
It's one. Some of them are so bad you can't even actually read them. Struggling with his parents' separation and his new life on the plantation, a young boy befriends Uncle Remus who spins yarns through songs like Shut Your Face, Uncle Fucker and Carl's Mum's a Bitch. So that's the South Park movie at the end. Yep.
00:44:05
Speaker
What's the start though? Something in the Deep South or something? Maybe Deep South Park? I'll just go with that. Song of the South Park. Song of the South Park. Say hello to my little friend he screamed while grabbing his butt cheeks and pretending to talk out of his booty hole. Scarface Ventura. Scarface Ventura.
00:44:34
Speaker
Not awful. All right. Space Ventura. Comedy Gold. There we go. There we go. Every pod. So we'll do it 12 times in a year. It's a bit unlucky. It's presumptuous. What a month am I pushing my luck? What did they do there? There's TV show movies. Like one's a TV show and one's a movie and it's video game. Oh, do a TV show movie one.
00:45:02
Speaker
Hey, you brought this up. You brought this on yourself. Don't blame us. A young girl with big sports dreams wants to curve it like a certain Spice Girl hubby, but she'll have to get past Nitro, Laser and the Eliminator to become number one. Bend it like... I don't know, the TV show. Bend it by Beckon. Yeah. It's the show. Then how do you go? Is it Ham? American Gladiator.
00:45:32
Speaker
Bend it like, what? American gladiator. Oh, that's terrible. So they're really not taking full words at all. They're literally taking a couple of letters. No. It gives an anti-serial killer satiate sociopathic bloodlust by murdering bad guys while learning to live with his new partner, a slobbering French mastiff that keeps chewing everything. Well, that's Turner and Hooch. Yeah.
00:46:02
Speaker
Yep. There we go. That doesn't make any sense though. We're all dumber for that. At least it's the one you said earlier when it was Lion King's Men. That at least was a full word of King in the full word, not taking two letters to go. Maybe stretching and try and, you know, fill out some content for this $50 Kickstarter version. Anyways.
00:46:30
Speaker
Wow. Lovely folk at the Valley folk. I've tried really hard, I'm sure. There you go. That all sounds like a deck of cards that's been glued together. Yep. And there's potentially going in the fire on a gaming retreat later this year. So what you're saying, G-Money, is it is the trifle from friends? Yeah, it's hard to deal with. You're hard to deal with.
00:46:58
Speaker
You're difficult to be around, DJ. You want to play again? Yeah, right. Let's go. Now, so what are we talking? We're talking games that we like, we really like, but they don't like the digital implications or the digital interpretations of them. Is that what we're talking about? You can talk about that if you like, yeah.
00:47:22
Speaker
Why not? Yeah. Well, we raised it before. You're obviously a big fan of TO, Steven. We've been playing a game of TO lately and an online BGA game version. And I got to say it's the best game I've ever played. I really enjoyed that game of TO. It was one of the things where everything came together and I knew exactly what I need to do. And every move had like a corresponding move. I don't think all of the people playing that game had the same feeling sometimes.
00:47:50
Speaker
Yes, that's literally why I thought of this topic is because I went back to that game and I could see that you and I were doing quite well. And then I looked at Shane and he was on 17 points and I'm like, oh.
00:48:02
Speaker
Maybe this isn't the best game. And that's what kind of got me thinking, you know, not only about that, but also about what I was saying before. Like, if you're not, TO is a perfect example. If you're not across how to play TO, I don't think you're going to get better by playing it on BGA. Like, eventually, sure. Like, but you got to, you got to understand the game a little bit more than
00:48:24
Speaker
just here are all your options, click which one you want, I think. That works for games like Six Nymph, and that's probably a really easy example, but even things like, you could probably, you could probably, yeah, jag it together for a few games, but like that game of Barrage we had the other day is a perfect example. I really enjoyed that.
00:48:42
Speaker
But I ruined myself for like a round and a half because I thought I needed one thing, but I actually needed the other thing. And if we were playing that live, you would have gone, why are you getting all those things? Like you would have been like, why you've got, you don't need, what are you trying to build over there? And then I would have gone, oh shit, yeah, I need the other thing. But I didn't do that until I had enough of the wrong thing to realize I'd had enough of the wrong thing.
00:49:06
Speaker
Um, and yeah, like from that point on, I just played the game as normal because I, you know, everything started to click after that, but I was a hundred points behind. Um, you know, I'm not saying I would have been a hundred points better off, but I would have, you know, if that we were playing that real time,
00:49:24
Speaker
I would have picked up on that a lot sooner than what I did on the on the implementation, especially considering like you get the resources up the top, but then the costs and everything you got to scroll down. So like, you know, there's that it's not all in front of you, I guess. So yeah, I think with the heavy games, if I knew if I knew barrage, I would have never made that mistake. And it would have been a much better game. But I haven't played barrage in like two and a half years. So it just was hard to just jump back in and go, yeah, cool. I know what I'm doing, I guess.
00:49:55
Speaker
And I think I found it with heat. Like I know we had, we had the first game where we all just thought we'd pick it up and nobody did and it was horrible. And then we had the sort of teach game where you ran it through how it all worked and we did it. And then I still fucked it up horrendously. Like I could not remember. And I'm like, there's a negative on the speed. Is that I go one less or I need one less? And it turns out I was the wrong.
00:50:20
Speaker
And so it's stacked it on the corner. But yeah, it's not forgiving. Even though you've got tool tips and you can hover over stuff and it tells you exactly what it does, unless you know it doesn't help you. It's just really hard to come back from a critical mistake. And especially with a big heavy game where even turn based is still going to take you like a couple of weeks to play. You might fuck up the first three turns and then you might as well just click buttons or skip or whatever.
00:50:45
Speaker
I vaguely remembered in barrage that you can get away with not pushing water through on your first round and taking the three negative points or whatever else, but you definitely don't want to do that in the second round. And I think I did that for the first three rounds.
00:50:59
Speaker
I was like, there's no coming back from this. But as far as just games that are poor, not poorly implemented, but the game that I always talk about is Architects of the West Kingdom. And because the greatest thing about that game is you can play it with six players and it plays just as quickly as it does with two, probably quicker in person. But that's because they're all very small moves.
00:51:24
Speaker
Like you just do a move and then your turns over and you gather your stuff or whatever else. So you build the thing and that's it. Um, but in a turn based game, there's so many small moves that it just seems to lose that sort of flow and enjoyment in a turn based situation. It works in real time, but yeah, that's, that's the one game that stands out for me as a game that I just don't ever want to play on BGA again, unless it is real time.
00:51:49
Speaker
My version of it was Reza Kana. I played one BGA game, like that. A similar sort of thing, like it's usually a very quick move. Like you tap one card and you get one resource, not the go. But even the drafts and some of that sort of stuff, like it just takes two days to, you know, get your hand and you completely forget what you're doing. There's no point in playing it. And even playing it with one other person still took way longer than it should have. And I think for any of that sort of games, like Space Base, I find really hard.
00:52:19
Speaker
Um, even, um, we're just talking about the seven one, uh, it's one of a word like drafting phase drafting seems to make the turn based games take a really long time to get to anything. That's it. Right. Cause there's seven rounds of a draft. So there's four players. That's that's 28.
00:52:41
Speaker
Interact stops. Yeah, yeah. Per round. You'll do that four times. Well, I'm interested to know, Jimani, because you said you played It's a Wonderful World recently. How did you find it different to playing online? Did you prefer it? I think I played with quite a few new people, and it still takes a little while. It still takes a whole game to sort of click.
00:53:08
Speaker
But I think it's easier in person than it is online, even if you were live, but it'd be faster online. Like, cause you don't have to do anything. You don't have to put any cubes. You just click it all and it's done. Yeah. No, that's true. And I feel that way with Ark Nova, like you play automate like Autonomous Ark Nova.
00:53:32
Speaker
Like I can play that game in like 15, 20 minutes by myself. Do you know what I mean? And that's a three hour game. That's the impact of four players. But also then like you say, it's that turn-based thing of you're waiting for everybody to do every little thing. If you have an action card that affects somebody else's, then you have to wait for them to action that thing off your card to continue even your own round.
00:53:54
Speaker
Yeah. Although I will say with Ark Nova, I find, I actually think it feels quicker. Not like, obviously, like it feels quicker, I'm not saying it is, but turn-based Ark Nova. It's definitely quicker in real, it's definitely quicker online than in real life. Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like the game is like, yeah, because like,
00:54:12
Speaker
Maybe because you're doing more on your turn, like, you know, where if I'm waiting for you to build two different enclosures or whatever else, that takes a bit of time and you choose where they want to go and blah, blah, blah. Right. And then the next person, maybe they're, you know, doing a conservation project and they're upgrading one of the things and there's a bit of indecision there because you're sitting there waiting for it to come back to your turn. You're like, that could might take a few minutes where because it's only one action and so much stuff happens.
00:54:42
Speaker
Like I don't find the turn based thing anywhere near as drawn out as I do for other games because so much is happening on each individual turn. It doesn't matter that Dave took five minutes to have his turn because I'm not going to see that for two hours kind of thing. Yeah, no, that's true for sure. But I love, I love it solo. Same reason you said you just, I will never play that game in person solo ever again.
00:55:08
Speaker
Oh, I couldn't even imagine going to the effort of getting that bought out to play it when I could just play it online. And it's a great thing to do instead of playing all the crap, like online, you know, the crap phone apps that you have. Why would you not just plug out a quick game of Ark Nova? Like it just makes sense. And I think that's it with BJ. There's definitely positives and negatives. And I think we all play it a little bit.
00:55:33
Speaker
It gives you enough of an experience playing a game. If you find the right game to be able to play, that makes you feel like you're playing a game and not just wasting money on shitty phone ads or watching something on your phone or wasting time. You can pull out your iPad and play a BGA game and feel like you're playing a game. Yeah. You're never going to go and get that game out and set it all up. No.
00:55:56
Speaker
And there's some really good ones like, like a big shoulders. I love that that game does all the math for you. And you don't have to do any of that share processing stuff. Cause that's a three hour game that if you play live, you can do it in an hour. Yeah. I will. We basically had a game of that going for three months. Like we just, every time a game finishes, we start another one. Again, you would never do that in person. You'd never be like, all right, well let's play this again next week. You'll end up playing something else. Yeah.
00:56:26
Speaker
I will say that your enjoyment of the game is dictated by how well you're doing in it. Like if you're having a great game, you're waiting for the game to come so you can have your next turn. But if it's like not really much is happening, you don't really care.
00:56:46
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, if it's fair. Generally, yeah. The thing for me, G-Money, has been the barrage games I've been playing lately. I think I've got crushed five out of six games and enjoyed every single one. I'm like, every turn, every time it's my turn, I'm like, is there a way that I can do better here? And usually the answer is no.
00:57:04
Speaker
But there was that one game where everything worked and I killed it. But yeah, it definitely is most of the time, especially if you're playing with random people you don't care about, you don't know. It's like, whatever. This just needs to go away. I'll just keep clicking until it's finished.
00:57:17
Speaker
And plus games, you play games differently or I find games play differently when you don't know the person. You tend to be more like, I'm just going to stop them from doing this. And you don't have to worry about them looking at you. Carnegie is ruthless. I don't know why, but people always try to stop people from getting all the tracks.
00:57:41
Speaker
For no reason. It never works, but they always do it. And I'm like, why do you guys do that? Why do you waste your time trying to stop other people from getting the thing? Anyway.
00:57:54
Speaker
And it's like big shoulders is a funny, a good example too. Like there was a while there when we were playing and we're like, we, everyone was selling each other shares and all that sort of stuff, which is all that happens when you're playing it with other people. Um, but we did, and then it's almost like, I don't know whether you guys are the same, but every time I get to the, to the shares, I'm like, who's going to be the bastard who pulls the trigger first. And so, and it hasn't happened in like three games. So that's, that's because we know each other. I assume like, yeah.
00:58:23
Speaker
I guess that's the other thing too, right? And I get this a lot with Feast for Own, which is one of my favorite games. If I pulled Feast for Own out and set it up at the table and we played it, I'd really want to try and play well and maximize my turns and blah, blah, blah. But because it's on BGA, I kind of feel more inclined to just try a random strategy that I've never tried before. If it doesn't work, well, who cares?
00:58:46
Speaker
Um, I haven't gone through that whole effort of setting up the game and all that, just to throw it away on a, on a mask strategy, for example, on like a TO reference, but, um, like it's been cool. I've, I've never really done the animals before, but I do that every now and again on feast. Um, what's really funny is I'm playing a game with you guys at the moment. And I'm a playing a game with my brother and his family and I'm playing two very different strategies. So every time it says it's my turn and feast for I don't have to like go. Okay. Which one am I playing? Which one is this?
00:59:17
Speaker
Yeah, there's less there's less on the line. So you feel like you can just do it. And it's turn based and you can do it at your own time. Like you got 10 minutes in between a meeting off and play as I'm walking between offices at work. I should be probably looking at my phone while I'm walking. But yeah, I'm like, Oh, I got 10 minutes. I'll just punch out all my turns and you know, couple hours later, it will be pop up again. I'll go and do it on my lunch break or something. Hmm.
00:59:42
Speaker
So it's a, it's a lot easier to pick up and put down when you've got the time for it. It's not like you're wasting three hours of a key prime gaming night that you've only got once in a month and you know, you really need to get all your, every scrap of enjoyment out of. Yeah.
01:00:00
Speaker
There is one other game that has been ruined for me because of BGA to the point where I sold my copy of the real game. And that was Super Fantasy Brawl. It ruined that game for me because I mean, in fairness, I didn't love it. I got all the Kickstarter stuff and it was fine. And if you play it with the right people, it can be fun. If you play it with the wrong people, it can be brutal. But
01:00:24
Speaker
the turn-based version of that game was so long because if I attack you I have to wait until you respond to that reaction but I might be attacking you three times in one move so then you respond with nothing because you've got no card to respond with then I attack you again then I have to wait for you to respond to that attack like three times over and it's just I remember I played in a tournament once and everyone
01:00:51
Speaker
timed out. No one finished their games. And I won, I got through to like the third round because I was, whenever there's a tie in a tournament, the winner is the person who's used the least amount of time.
01:01:05
Speaker
So I used the least amount of time in my first two games. One of those games, I was losing 4-1 in the game that's first to five, but I got the win because I'd used less time. And I went through to the third round before someone used less time than I did. No one actually won a game. And that was it. That was one of those games where I just turned up and went, oh, not this one again, whatever, like just move on with my life. And yeah, and I've never gone back to that game since.
01:01:32
Speaker
But I know you said TO is your favorite and we talk a lot about TO. And the BGA version of TO, once you know how to play it, it is pretty good. It's pretty intuitive and it works pretty easily.
01:01:43
Speaker
But there's just something that you miss. I think the way that game is built with the tiles and you build the pyramid and like the pieces are fantastic. You don't get that out of your screen, especially if you're playing on your phone, it's like this big and you've got to move the screen over to move the dice. So, I mean, I'm actually selling my copy of that, Steve, because they've got the all incoming, which I'm actually quite excited about. Ah, cool. Yeah, yeah. I know, G-Money's pretty keen to get his probably mints on. Yep.
01:02:13
Speaker
It's also, that's another example of like some games have the expansions on there and some don't. Like I'm just hanging for like the Norwegians expansion for Feast of Odin and at least one of the expansions for TO. But then some other games have got them all. You're like, oh, awesome. Like we can throw everything on here if you want to do that too. That kind of, like especially Feast of Odin is a much better game with the Norwegians expansion.
01:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's just not there. So you can't do it. I don't even know how they run. I saw a message on the space base one the other day, someone like the main person that built it bailed out. And so there was all bugs that had been fixed. And so somebody like a community member just stepped in and started fixing it. Yeah, right. So I don't know how like the game implementation works. Is it like sponsored by the company or they just get a random coder or just a community member to do what I don't know. Mm, mixture of all things, I'd say.
01:03:12
Speaker
Because I wonder whether it depends on how easy it is, whether there's a way that you could actually do it ourselves. Get in and build these expansions that we want to see. Because for big shoulders, I'd be super keen to see the expansion. That makes it such a better game. But it's been like this for five years. No one's changed it now. No, that's it. Yeah. The company of bankrupt, they're not following up as well. Yeah, that's it.
01:03:39
Speaker
The big shoulders company went bankrupt. Oh, they only made the way. Board game companies are not the strongest of entities to begin with, but yeah, they did this one print run of this one game they made and that was it. I'm just surprised because I know how big a game that is for you and how, you know, how many people played or across the world because you play in tournaments. I'm just surprised. Yeah, it's a pretty low activity BGA game anyway.
01:04:05
Speaker
That's how I think I'm able to do. And not that many copies made it out here. Like it is a pretty small print running. I think it was a niche game in a niche hobby that didn't really take off or something. I don't know. Probably a lot of reasons why the creators either keep making games or don't make any more games. I don't know.
01:04:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, imagine if you found a copy of Big Shoulders, you'd be stupid to sell it, hey? Didn't sell mine. Didn't sell mine. Just a loan. But what's funny about that game too is the fact that it hasn't gotten a new print run yet because around the same time, not long after it came out, it shut up, shut up and sit down, did a review on it and loved it.
01:04:49
Speaker
And usually when that happens, the game goes bonkers, which I think it did. That just meant that every copy in the world ever sold out and that was it. So you can't come along with that game and you're playing someone else's copy if you're playing that game or you're playing it on BGA. Yeah. And I think it's harder financial market at the moment. There's been a bit going on with mythic games, which I've been keeping track on because I
01:05:14
Speaker
I'm a backer of one of their games so I get all the stuff. One of many Kickstarter's that are running out of money before they're fulfilling their products due to various reasons and cost of living and all sorts of stuff. They've had to sell on some of their IP of some of their games that have even partially developed just to continue operating. I don't know how it's actually going to play out in the near future. These are fairly big companies with fairly
01:05:44
Speaker
big Kickstarter campaigns and, you know, millions of dollars behind them that are folding because they're not able to commit or to finish doing what they've actually been paid to do. Well, I remember Hell the Last Saga. I don't know if that's the one you've backed. Well, so I did Darkest Dungeon just before that. Right. Yeah, because I remember playing a playthrough of Hell the Last Saga in the Virtual Gaming Con in 2020 and it had already been on Kickstarter.
01:06:11
Speaker
Luckily, I didn't enjoy that playthrough, so I unpledged. That was not a cheap game either, and it's not even a game anymore. Yeah. Yeah, go on. So there was a couple, I can't remember, it wasn't hell or else I got some other ones. Rainbow Six Siege. Yeah, Six Siege was one of theirs. Yeah. So apparently it got delivered.
01:06:35
Speaker
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01:06:53
Speaker
Oh no, the recent one, like an under-lived Kickstarter. I'd have to look up which one it was. So yeah, they were running out of money. They haven't finished the production of it and they couldn't get it there. Like they run out of money to be able to develop the game. So they've gone to Cmon who bought the game over.
01:07:13
Speaker
Now, these people have charged game costs, shipping costs, and then additional costs to try and get the game finished. And then it said, we're not going to be able to deliver the game. So, Cmonic saying, okay, everybody that's a current backer, we'll give you a copy of the base game, but that's it. And everything else you have to pay us now to finish off delivery.
01:07:37
Speaker
Because I was going to ask that question. Do you think that these companies are not folding because they haven't priced their product correctly? Or do you think they're just really bad with money and they're just wasting money on shit that they shouldn't be? The general consensus for this one was they kept doing Kickstarters and taking the money for the Kickstarters to fund the delivery of the previous one.
01:08:00
Speaker
Yeah. So it's a basic, yeah, insolvency trading that they never ever, yeah, they never actually have a lot of finish to remember. Because in answer to your question, the first part of your question, Helen, none of these games were cheap. Like these are all big, crazy, big keystones. Darkest Dungeon was like 400 bucks, I think, something like that. And so it was 300 bucks with 100 shipping with an extra contribution of 60 if you actually want to get it because when they went to post it, they're out of money.
01:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, so those people though, like if they then are only getting the base game when they're paid for all the sectors, what is their course of action in that space? Is there a kickstarter thing of entering your own store? Yep. The terms and conditions when you buy a game says you will not guarantee to receive what you're paying for. And they move away from that.
01:08:51
Speaker
They take whatever it is. I think it's 13% of the total costs to run and fund the campaign. And then that's it. It's out of their hands. They don't care what happens.
01:09:00
Speaker
So could these people sue them, no, because of the extra 60 that they, because they demanded extra money, they paid the extra money and are still not getting what they've been asked for. It's essentially like at that point when they're asking for the extra 60, it's essentially they're like holding it for ransom. Yeah, that's exactly, it's blackmail. And then for them to still not deliver. So yeah, so Six Siege, Hell the Last Saga, Monsterpocalypse and Anastia.
01:09:26
Speaker
are the fours that they've bailed out on. So they all are through Kickstarter. They got 6.3 million for those four games and none of them are getting delivered. So people need to sue them. But they can't. They got nothing. Well, but they do. They have 6.3 million if they're not delivering the games and they haven't made the games. Yeah. So they had and that's part of what you get when they go into it. They don't currently have the money and they don't currently have the games. And if you sue them, you're not going to get anything.
01:09:56
Speaker
And there is talk and doing class actions against kicks out of it. The terms and conditions are pretty clear. Everybody is completely covered in this. There's no recourse. You're giving away money. You're not actually buying, you're supporting them and then they're giving you a reward. So theoretically you're just supporting them and it's up to them whether they give you the reward. It's a trust exercise. It's a bit of an ever heard pledge first donate situation.
01:10:26
Speaker
Either way, shit will get delivered. Or not. I feel sorry for my nephew, Mick. He went in the sixth siege and he paid the extra money, I think twice now. It was an extra postage amount. Then there was an extra production amount. And now, yeah, it's like, well, in one sense, it's probably saved him a lot of money because it's probably made him a little bit more wary of Kickstarter. So he probably hasn't backed other stuff. So there's that.
01:10:54
Speaker
Yeah, and it depends when you get stung as well. So the Darkest Dungeon one, so that's a licensed IP of a video game. So the company that they got the video game off actually donated them the first round. So they went through two rounds of asking for extra money as well, but one of them, the video game company paid for, and then the next one they asked for from the backers, and they still cut it down. There was a whole thing with
01:11:18
Speaker
Every non-English version got cut. So, it was like a French, a Spanish, an Italian, and a Greek, I think it was the other one. So, they all got cut.
Kickstarter's Shift to Pre-Orders
01:11:29
Speaker
Unless you paid an extra hundred dollars, and only if they got a thousand people buy that language game would they print it. There it is. What fucking arseholes. Yeah. So, it's a great
01:11:42
Speaker
cautionary tale of Kickstarter's and it's only fairly recent and suddenly like developing now this this fairly big company with seven figure, you know, delivery mechanisms behind them, just not able to meet their commitments. But it's gonna hurt the other gamers who are trying to build games and because people weren't paid for them, they'll wait for them to get onto shelves.
01:12:07
Speaker
Well, it's almost at the point even now with Kickstarter. So Kickstarter started it. I've got an idea and I need money to make my game and you give me money and I'll make the game and I'll give you one. Um, it's not that anymore. It's turned down into really big companies. No. And they use it for pre-orders. They go, I'll pre-sell 6,000 copies. So I would take that money and print 8,000 copies and keep the rest and sell them and make money. That's why. Yeah. And it comes true. Yes. And you cannot get money. If you're a brand new developer with a half formed idea, you just don't get money now.
01:12:38
Speaker
yeah although i will say it's been a nice change probably in the last probably 18 months there's a lot more games now that are just this is the version of the game like
01:12:50
Speaker
I know C-mon still do the whole, oh, you can pay extra to get the minis, you can pay them to get the sun drop, you can pay to get the extra expansions, you can add and you can add your neck and that. But there's enough companies now that are just going, you're just getting the game early. That's what you're paying for. And I like that. I think that that's fair. That's like no one's walking into vault games and buying everything for one game at the start before they've even played a game.
01:13:17
Speaker
But on Kickstarter, that was for a longest time. That was the expectation, right? You go, well, I don't want to just get the base game. I'm going to get the entire all in pledge because I don't want to miss out on it or whatever else. Or the chance being the base game might make it to retail, but all the expansions won't. And so if you have to buy them now, regardless of whether you like the game or not, or whether it's good or not. Yeah, well, that's.
01:13:43
Speaker
So I was just saying, that's still there to some extent, but I feel like it's becoming less popular and companies are cutting onto that and just going, you know, we're releasing this game. If you want it, it's here. And then they might do a second Kickstarter for an expansion, which is also great because then if you play the game and you like it, you can jump back on and go, oh, sweet. I'll grab that and the expansion because I've already played the game and I like it.
01:14:06
Speaker
Um, you know, the, you know, the Garfield games thing where it's just like, this is going to be the exact same version that's in retail. You just get it four months before anyone else. I think it comes down to two games. Like there's, you know, Shannon Garfield, I may consistently deliver early. They turn them over. They, it's lead times not read long. You pay six and 30 of the game. 10 months later, it's in the shop. Like it's a very nice way to do it. It feels good. Would you feel like you're supporting them and you also feel like you get it a bit earlier where
01:14:35
Speaker
You're paying a reasonable amount even. The price is probably pretty equivalent. You might pay $100 through the kick sale. It's $110 retail, but it's basically the same. If you look at some of these big ones, like the Street Fighter one that I mentioned in the other day, that was a big one for me. I paid somebody here who did it $500, which was the cost.
01:14:55
Speaker
So massive game, like base game plus six expansions, whatever it was, $500, huge amount of money. If you went to a shop to buy that, because some people, some shops did do a Kickstarter buy, and so they have everything there you could buy. It's $1,100. All right. So the retail markup that goes on to these Kickstarter means sometimes that's how you need it to get the stuff.
The Frustration of Missing Exclusive Content
01:15:16
Speaker
You might be paying hundreds of dollars less to get an all-in Kickstarter direct rather than waiting until it comes to shop if you even get the chance to do that.
01:15:24
Speaker
So I think a lot of people fell into the trap of, I better do it now and pay the money now so that I'm not stung later or not able to get it later. Almost in the hope that they'll love the game. Well, I wouldn't want to buy the base game and then not be able to get all these expansions. And I love the game, you know? Or in a speculative sense, if they don't like it, well, nobody else will get that. So I'll be able to flog it off and maybe make my money back or make a little bit of profit.
01:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, well, we played Flamecraft. When we played Flamecraft, we played a Kickstarter version and, you know, I can go buy the base game, but it doesn't have all the shiny fun parts and I can't get those now. And so it's very hard as a retail consumer to not be able to get all the pretty stuff. So I was very lucky with Wormspam because it was Stonemaier. They did a pre-order.
01:16:12
Speaker
They pre-auto opened on the 31st, so I had the game 10 days later. I bought the extra pieces. So I got the upgraded pieces and I happened to buy some eggs, some gold eggs for wingspan at the same time.
Stonemaier Games' Direct Sales Model
01:16:26
Speaker
Jamie's pretty outspoken that he's not a fan of Kickstarter. He used it initially when he first started getting into the industry, but he doesn't do it anymore and there's a bunch of reasons for it. Everybody knows to go to his site. He has his own 20% discount, like if you've got your membership, so you get all the
01:16:41
Speaker
newsletters every, you know, every few weeks that tells you everything that's going on. So I think that they're enough of a game, you know, they're enough of a gaming company that they don't need to go that route. They can fund themselves. Well, these bills are that way in purpose. But like Cmon, Cmon's probably bigger than Stonewire, I think.
01:17:03
Speaker
they choose to do that this way. They go through that, we've got a base game for 100 and then a minis box for another 100 and then a fancy toys box for another 100 and then shipping on the Galactus Mini that's $600 for a single game. But it just seems so odd for me that they would bother to use Kickstarter if they are that big. Why not just have your own website and keep your 13% that you're paying to Kickstarter and just do it through pre-orders through your own website?
01:17:27
Speaker
because it's guaranteed, you don't have to run a production line. Like you just go. We know exactly how many we want to produce.
01:17:37
Speaker
It's like the Marvel United one gets me. Marvel United's a great game. I bought the base game. I played it. I loved it. And then I was like, all right, what do I need to get? And there's enough Marvel United expansions that if I put them one on top of the other, it would be taller than me. And half of them were available on their first Kickstarter. The other half are available on their second Kickstarter. So a game that I bought in a news agency in Capella
01:18:04
Speaker
for 25 bucks that had so much dust on it that you could write your name on the shrink. If I want everything for that game, I've got to shell out over 1200 bucks. It doesn't make sense. It's like, it's not it. Yeah. Anyway, how do we get onto this? Random kicks out of random. Two topics. Yeah. Lucky listeners, all six of them.
Conclusion & Informal Sign-off
01:18:32
Speaker
Yeah.
01:18:33
Speaker
All right, we should probably wrap it up and maybe we should introduce ourselves. I've been Dave. Steve and me. This has been the show. Thanks for listening. Have a good night.