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Personality Change Science
27 Plays7 months ago
Welcome to The Positively Healthy Mom Podcast! I'm Laura Ollinger, and today, I’m thrilled to welcome Shannon Sauer-Zavala, a licensed clinical psychologist, and expert in the emerging field of Personality Change Science. Shannon is dedicated to helping people from all walks of life—whether they’re teenagers, parents, or college students—transform their mental health through her research-backed insights.
In this enlightening episode, Shannon delves into the fascinating world of Personality Change Science—exploring how we can reshape our personalities in ways that lead to healthier, more fulfilling lives. With her background as both a private practitioner and an academic researcher at the University of Kentucky, Shannon’s expertise offers a unique blend of hands-on experience and cutting-edge science. Her research is funded by the National Institute of Mental Health, ensuring that her strategies are grounded in the latest psychological advancements.
Shannon guides us through practical steps to apply Personality Change Science in our everyday lives. She’ll share how understanding the malleable aspects of our personalities can help us overcome mental health challenges and lead to meaningful personal growth. Whether you're a busy mom, a student, or a parent, Shannon’s tips will show you how to harness your potential for change and live more authentically.
Throughout the episode, Shannon also discusses the critical role personality plays in our emotional well-being and how intentional change can be the key to breaking negative patterns and fostering positive ones.
Key takeaways from this episode include:
- The science behind personality changes and how it can lead to better mental health and life satisfaction.
- How to incorporate small, actionable steps into your routine that align with your desired personality shifts.
- How Shannon’s work as a clinical psychologist and researcher offers groundbreaking insights that can support your journey toward personal growth.
Join us for this insightful conversation and discover how Shannon’s passion for Personality Change Science can inspire and guide you toward living a more balanced, empowered, and fulfilling life.
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Transcript
Introduction to Positively Healthy Mom Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey moms, it's Laura Olinger.
00:00:02
Speaker
Welcome to the Positively Healthy Mom podcast.
00:00:05
Speaker
Because there's no manual for the hardest job in the world.
Meet Shannon Sauer-Zabala, Clinical Psychologist
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to today's show.
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm so excited to introduce you to Shannon Sauer-Zabala, who is a licensed clinical psychologist and has so much awesome information today for the mom.
00:00:25
Speaker
So Shannon, say hello and tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:00:29
Speaker
Hi, yeah, thanks so much for having me.
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm really excited to be here.
00:00:34
Speaker
I am a licensed clinical psychologist.
00:00:37
Speaker
And so that means I have a small private practice where I work with all kinds of people, teenagers,
00:00:44
Speaker
parents, college students, you know, sort of runs the gamut.
00:00:49
Speaker
And then the other sort of like big piece of my day to day is as an academic researcher.
00:00:56
Speaker
So I'm a professor at the University of Kentucky.
00:00:59
Speaker
So I do a little bit of teaching, mostly at the graduate student level.
00:01:03
Speaker
So I'm training new PhD students to become therapists.
00:01:07
Speaker
And then I'm doing research.
Research on Anxiety and Depression Treatments
00:01:09
Speaker
So I'm funded by the National Institute of Mental Health to do clinical trials to basically to make our treatments for anxiety and depression better, more efficient, more personalized so that more people have access to good care.
00:01:21
Speaker
Wow, that sounds just totally fascinating.
00:01:24
Speaker
And right up my alley also as well to learn more about that.
00:01:27
Speaker
And so I know your specialty is about changing your own personality.
00:01:33
Speaker
How tell us about that.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:01:37
Speaker
So I kind of came to be interested in personality change through my treatment outcome research, so developing new treatments.
00:01:46
Speaker
Basically, the way clinical psychology has really approached treating mental health difficulties has been to have a different treatment for every disorder, right?
00:01:58
Speaker
And that's really inefficient because there are shared vulnerabilities that could put a person at risk to develop
00:02:05
Speaker
more than one condition.
00:02:06
Speaker
What we find is that personality traits can actually predispose people to develop anxiety or depression or substance use disorder or eating disorders.
Modifying Personality Traits for Personal Goals
00:02:22
Speaker
And so it's actually more efficient to target the vulnerabilities instead of targeting the symptoms themselves.
00:02:31
Speaker
And so some of my research work has been really focused on, well, can we change personality?
00:02:37
Speaker
Can we do this intentionally?
00:02:38
Speaker
How can we shift it?
00:02:40
Speaker
And turns out you can.
00:02:43
Speaker
I'm really interested in basically just sharing that information with people, right?
00:02:48
Speaker
I mean, going why I've wanted to come on podcasts, because I think people really think your personality is set in stone.
00:02:55
Speaker
You should, you know, you should kind of customize your life to fit the personality that you already have.
00:03:01
Speaker
when really we have a lot more say in how we develop or evolve our traits over time.
00:03:09
Speaker
Wow.
00:03:10
Speaker
That is just kind of like a new, totally new perspective to look at this because part of my training in positive psychology is when we look at like character traits.
Debate: Strengthening Positive Traits vs. Improving Weaknesses
00:03:21
Speaker
The idea is to, if you assess yourself or take one of the assessments of like the via character assessment is the one, is to kind of look at your top traits and just to continue to strengthen those.
00:03:34
Speaker
And in my training, they encourage us to kind of ignore the bottom
00:03:38
Speaker
traits.
00:03:39
Speaker
They said, just don't worry about those.
00:03:40
Speaker
They're low on the list.
00:03:41
Speaker
Don't worry about them.
00:03:42
Speaker
But I know that's not what a lot of people want to hear.
00:03:46
Speaker
So for example, if there's a personality trait that falls at the bottom, like one is humor.
00:03:51
Speaker
Say your last trait is humor, but you want to be more humor, more funny, then I think it's worth looking at that and worth saying, how can I build that trait or skill or quality about myself?
00:04:04
Speaker
So what are your thoughts about like focusing on the positives or focusing on the negatives?
00:04:08
Speaker
Or how do you how do you look at it?
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of like, I think it differs based on a person's goals.
00:04:16
Speaker
So the way I think about it, or the example I always use is kind of introversion versus extroversion, right?
00:04:22
Speaker
Because a lot of people will kind of be quick to say that the world is built for extroverts.
00:04:26
Speaker
And we really need to be, we need to be kind to our introverted friends and not sort of push them to be extroverts when they're not.
00:04:33
Speaker
And that is something I fully agree with, right?
00:04:35
Speaker
So if you are a person who, um,
00:04:40
Speaker
who it's like working for you to have fewer closer relationships that you need to recharge your social battery and that's not getting in the way of your goals, then you're not going to have the motivation to change your thinking and your behaviors that would lead to this lasting personality change.
00:04:56
Speaker
And that is a okay because being extroverted versus introverted, like there's no one side of the pole that's better.
00:05:03
Speaker
Right.
00:05:04
Speaker
you know, so take humor, for example.
00:05:08
Speaker
And I do, I love the character strengths assessment.
00:05:10
Speaker
I actually teach it in my, like make the students take it in my psychology class.
00:05:14
Speaker
You're right.
00:05:16
Speaker
Like it is the idea that like, we can't be good at everything.
00:05:20
Speaker
And so really put your energy into what's already working for you.
00:05:25
Speaker
And I think that that's great.
00:05:27
Speaker
If your strengths are
00:05:30
Speaker
really align with your goals and what you want to do.
00:05:38
Speaker
I think like, I think the, the twist here, the thing that's a little bit different is that like, you don't have to change your goal or change your dream based on what the personality test tells you your traits are right now.
00:05:52
Speaker
You can develop the traits if you want, right?
00:05:54
Speaker
That's that volitional part.
00:05:57
Speaker
Mm hmm.
00:05:59
Speaker
So how does this apply to mom?
Improving Traits like Patience in Motherhood
00:06:02
Speaker
So give us like an example of how this even shows up in your practice that you work with your clients through or just things that you see day to day out in the real world.
00:06:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:06:13
Speaker
So I mean, I can give you two examples.
00:06:16
Speaker
One is actually like a personal example.
00:06:18
Speaker
So I'm a mom, I have a nine year old, and I have a six year old.
00:06:21
Speaker
And like, I would not really describe myself as the most patient person.
00:06:25
Speaker
And most people would say that like patience is a pretty important trait when it comes to success in dealing with the things that children do.
00:06:37
Speaker
And I'm sure I'm not in the teenage years yet, but I'm sure that applies maybe
00:06:43
Speaker
maybe a hundred fold when you're working with T. And so, you know, one of the things that has been really important to me is to really, really flex that trait, right?
00:06:54
Speaker
It could be easy for me to say, well, I'm not a patient person.
00:06:57
Speaker
So, you know, I'm just going to snap it.
00:06:59
Speaker
My kids would be irritable.
00:07:00
Speaker
Um, that's not, you know, so I could like take a personality test and get that result and kind of say, well, that's just not me.
00:07:06
Speaker
I can't do it.
00:07:08
Speaker
Um,
00:07:09
Speaker
But that's not really the reality, right?
00:07:11
Speaker
We can work on how flexible we are with interruptions.
00:07:17
Speaker
We can work on how irritable we are.
00:07:26
Speaker
We can change our thinking patterns around what it means to be interrupted.
00:07:29
Speaker
Or like for me, I...
00:07:32
Speaker
I don't like it when the school gives my children whistles for some reason to reward good behavior.
00:07:37
Speaker
And so, so part of that is like building up a tolerance to things that are sort of like unpredictable that children do, right?
00:07:44
Speaker
And that's, it's kind of a, kind of a combination of reducing like how neurotic I am, right?
00:07:52
Speaker
Which is a personality trait, tendency to experience negative emotions.
00:07:56
Speaker
So how, how open I am to, and how flexible I am.
00:08:03
Speaker
I think like thinking about like if being an effective parent is a priority for you, and it may or may not be, but I'm assuming if you're listening to this podcast that it is, then it's a reasonable goal to want to enhance some of those traits.
00:08:21
Speaker
And there's no reason.
00:08:23
Speaker
I mean, the research suggests that we can.
00:08:25
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:08:28
Speaker
What's interesting is that it's coming to mind for me is a lot of times moms don't, they know they need to change certain things about themselves.
00:08:38
Speaker
Like you said, I need to be more patient or I need to this.
00:08:42
Speaker
But a lot of times moms,
00:08:44
Speaker
parents think that their child is the problem and they're not really willing to take ownership.
00:08:49
Speaker
So it might be like, oh, my kid's always doing this.
00:08:53
Speaker
And so it's so annoying and putting more of that.
00:08:57
Speaker
And instead of taking like ownership, like, oh, maybe I need to change.
00:09:00
Speaker
Maybe I need to be more patient.
00:09:01
Speaker
Maybe I need to handle it this way.
00:09:03
Speaker
So what do you do when it's just like for you as a clinician, it's so like blatantly obvious right in your face.
00:09:09
Speaker
And you're like, come on, you know, you know, what do you do?
00:09:12
Speaker
How do you work with that?
Influence of Parental Reactions on Children's Behavior
00:09:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:09:14
Speaker
So when that comes up in my practice, I think it's important to use some Socratic questioning to sort of help parents and teens kind of understand how their patterns are unfolding, right?
00:09:36
Speaker
And how...
00:09:38
Speaker
it's a system, right?
00:09:39
Speaker
So it's not that the child is necessarily being annoying on purpose in a vacuum, right?
00:09:49
Speaker
It's that it's the parent's response and how that response might actually intensify the behavior.
00:09:58
Speaker
So like working with a family, with a teen, with an eating disorder, something that really commonly comes up is that parents are really
00:10:08
Speaker
controlling around eating.
00:10:11
Speaker
They're like, eat.
00:10:13
Speaker
Like they're very, and it's because they're anxious at the table, right?
00:10:17
Speaker
Because they're worried about their kid, of course.
00:10:20
Speaker
And so the way that they manage their own anxiety is to be really forceful and pushy.
00:10:25
Speaker
And unfortunately, that often has the opposite effect where the kid will kind of shut down.
00:10:32
Speaker
probably eat less than they would if the parents took a different approach.
00:10:36
Speaker
And so helping them see, one of the things that I always like to do is help people see how their behaviors make sense, right?
00:10:43
Speaker
Like why you're trying that, why it makes sense.
00:10:45
Speaker
Like you're so nervous about this.
00:10:47
Speaker
Of course, you're just like being really forceful and aggressive and yelling about it.
00:10:53
Speaker
Like, because it's really high stakes.
00:10:54
Speaker
Of course you are.
00:10:56
Speaker
And the data, like, is that working?
00:10:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:01
Speaker
So in the short term, it might be harder to kind of sit back and go with the flow, but that might be a better way to get what you want in the long term.
00:11:10
Speaker
And so really helping people understand the function of their behavior and how it is helping or hindering moving towards a goal or a value.
00:11:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:18
Speaker
Okay.
00:11:19
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:11:20
Speaker
I liked how the way you explained that was, it was really easy to understand.
00:11:23
Speaker
And so, um, next, what about, you know, I hate to say there's such thing as like negative personality traits, but like the one you kind of highlighted was like the neuroticism and, and that tends to, and tell me if I'm wrong, but that tends to lend itself more to, um,
00:11:44
Speaker
The anxiety, the depression, the OCD, that whatever might happen.
00:11:47
Speaker
So is that characterized as a negative personality trait?
00:11:51
Speaker
And if so, what can be done to improve that?
Managing Neuroticism for Better Mental Health
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
00:11:57
Speaker
So I don't personally believe that any sort of level of any particular personality trait is inherently better or worse than another.
00:12:07
Speaker
And so to kind of give the counterpoint, being really, really low in narcissism is not great
00:12:13
Speaker
you because you might not, you know, you may not experience risk the same way.
00:12:20
Speaker
You do things that are impulsive or get you into trouble.
00:12:22
Speaker
I have a colleague who is pretty stoic and he says like his wife is often mad at him because she'll tell him something that happened and he won't like emote enough and she feels really invalidated.
00:12:34
Speaker
So, so we think of being like really low in neuroticism as being a great thing.
00:12:39
Speaker
but like too much of a good thing actually can cause some, some different problems.
00:12:45
Speaker
The counterpoint to that is like, I would kind of describe myself as a neurotic person.
00:12:49
Speaker
And I like, I always tell my patients cause I'm trying to normalize it and I don't want people to feel bad about experiencing emotion strongly.
00:12:56
Speaker
So I think being a better therapist, it helps me emphasize and empathize with people and that that's important.
00:13:03
Speaker
Now,
00:13:03
Speaker
When, and so we think of these personality traits as like on a spectrum, right?
00:13:08
Speaker
And we wouldn't, we, there is kind of an optimal level of negative emotions that help us function, right?
00:13:16
Speaker
Anxiety helps us prepare, sadness helps us process a loss, guilt helps us not make the same mistakes over and over again.
00:13:23
Speaker
So it's not like we wanna get rid of those emotional experiences, but we want, we don't, what we don't want is for these emotional experiences to interfere.
00:13:31
Speaker
And the stronger and more frequently we experience those emotions, so the higher we are on the neurotic spectrum, the more likely it is they interfere.
00:13:38
Speaker
It's not the feeling, the emotions themselves, though.
00:13:41
Speaker
It's the how we respond when the emotions come up.
00:13:44
Speaker
And what I find is that most of the people that I see in my practice with anxiety or depression, they don't like their emotions very much and they do things to avoid them.
00:13:56
Speaker
And those
00:13:57
Speaker
that they do to avoid their emotions actually just make things worse for them.
00:14:02
Speaker
So somebody that has panic attacks, they are probably pretty high on the neurotic spectrum.
00:14:08
Speaker
Um,
00:14:08
Speaker
they think panic attacks are really scary.
00:14:11
Speaker
And so maybe they don't go in elevators or they don't go in movie theaters or they don't take the stairs because like that might cause their heart rate to increase.
00:14:20
Speaker
All of this avoidance just kind of reinforces the notion that emotions are bad.
00:14:25
Speaker
And so your world gets smaller and smaller and smaller as you, as you avoid.
00:14:30
Speaker
And that's what an anxiety disorder looks like.
00:14:32
Speaker
And so isn't that,
00:14:35
Speaker
emotions, it's how we cope with them.
00:14:37
Speaker
And so the way that therapy is to help kind of redefine your relationship with emotions through, you know, cognitive, like thinking differently about emotions, it's not a sign of weakness.
00:14:48
Speaker
It's my body telling me something important is happening that I should pay attention to.
00:14:51
Speaker
And then through behavior change, you know, normally, you would avoid this hard conversation, but we're gonna have it today.
00:14:58
Speaker
Um,
00:14:59
Speaker
It can promote this new learning that, oh, I actually can tolerate my emotions.
00:15:03
Speaker
They're not permanent.
00:15:05
Speaker
And I have the skills to deal with it.
00:15:07
Speaker
Hmm.
00:15:08
Speaker
Okay.
00:15:09
Speaker
Okay.
Helping Teens with Flexible Thinking
00:15:10
Speaker
And then is there a way to, so you're, you're kind of, um, you're not running from these things.
00:15:16
Speaker
You're kind of feeling it.
00:15:17
Speaker
You're kind of thinking differently.
00:15:18
Speaker
You're doing different things about it, but is there a way to, because what's coming to mind for me is a lot of my teenage clients are very rigid thinkers.
00:15:30
Speaker
They're these black
00:15:31
Speaker
and white thinkers.
00:15:32
Speaker
And so it causes a lot of problem in the whole family and it stresses out the mom.
00:15:36
Speaker
And then the mom is calling me and my daughter is this and the, right.
00:15:40
Speaker
And so I have my own coaching methods that I use to help, but I'm curious from your standpoint, how can you, you know, is there a way to lessen a person's rigidity or is it just more your ability to deal with what is already existing?
00:16:00
Speaker
people can become more flexible over time.
00:16:03
Speaker
I think like it can be hard depending on how old your clients are, right?
00:16:07
Speaker
I mean, you would probably know better than I would, given that this is kind of your bread and butter population.
00:16:13
Speaker
And I work with teens a lot less, but you're kind of, this is like the period of your brain development where you're moving from like concrete to more abstract.
00:16:22
Speaker
And so however you are, the less, you know, it's like right and wrong or black and white, right?
00:16:27
Speaker
The less able you are to do that.
00:16:30
Speaker
And so the good thing
00:16:30
Speaker
is that as your brain develops, like you're going to have more capacity to hold two truths in your mind at the same time.
00:16:38
Speaker
Like I could be really mad at my mom and she also could be right.
00:16:43
Speaker
It's not a good idea for me to go to this thing.
00:16:46
Speaker
Like both of those things would be true.
00:16:48
Speaker
And that's, that's a big ask.
00:16:50
Speaker
So, so I think some of it is like kind of normalizing and psychoeducation for the parents that like, this is
00:16:57
Speaker
it's a big ask to expect them to kind of hold both of those things in their mind at the same time.
00:17:04
Speaker
Lots of evidence as, as with like, as we get more practice with flexibility.
00:17:10
Speaker
So I use, I use just like this list of challenging questions.
00:17:14
Speaker
So when someone has a rigid thought, like, you know, my mom is doing this on purpose to piss me off.
00:17:21
Speaker
You know, do you know for certain that she's on purpose?
00:17:25
Speaker
What evidence,
00:17:27
Speaker
And I actually make my clients read the questions out loud and answer out loud because there's something like,
00:17:33
Speaker
Once you take the negative thoughts out of your mind and like verbalize them, they sound more just far-fetched.
00:17:40
Speaker
I guess my mom is going out of her way.
00:17:42
Speaker
I can begrudgingly admit that.
00:17:46
Speaker
And so what we find is when people have a habit of thinking one way in a situation, my mom's doing this on purpose.
00:17:54
Speaker
Those are the thoughts that will pop up the next time the situation is similar.
00:17:58
Speaker
But with practice, we can create new patterns so that different alternative thoughts pop up kind of at the same time.
00:18:06
Speaker
And that may over time kind of overtake that initial negative thought.
00:18:10
Speaker
Hmm.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:11
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:12
Speaker
I, it's, I, I use some similar questioning with, with my clients as well.
00:18:15
Speaker
And one of the things I say is, can you prove it in a court of law that this is true?
00:18:20
Speaker
And then they're like, what?
00:18:21
Speaker
No, it's almost never true.
00:18:24
Speaker
It's almost never true.
00:18:25
Speaker
So, um, okay.
00:18:27
Speaker
What else can we, um, deliver to the moms today that might be like a helpful tip, you know, just like your, um,
00:18:34
Speaker
you know, on a daily basis, you know, not like life changing, personality changing, but just kind of, you know, you talked about like just patience, but what else can we help them with?
Embracing Change and Its Role in Parenting
00:18:43
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that comes to mind to me, like in my own parenting, and with
00:18:51
Speaker
you know, thinking about clients is that, especially at this stage, change is the only constant, really.
00:18:58
Speaker
So, you know, if you're, I always try to remind myself that the thing that I was worried about with my kids six months ago, isn't even a thing now.
00:19:08
Speaker
So, so knowing that, you
00:19:15
Speaker
there are these kind of like fits and starts with your relationship with your teen.
00:19:20
Speaker
That's to be expected, right?
00:19:24
Speaker
There are, there's variability in like, you know, kind of the extremities of how, you know, how challenging these relationships are.
00:19:31
Speaker
But for the most part, some of this is developmentally normal.
00:19:35
Speaker
And to kind of a little bit to the personality change, what we find is that most personality change occurs after, you know,
00:19:45
Speaker
kids leave home.
00:19:46
Speaker
So, you know, you think like that this is such an important like developmental time and it is right.
00:19:54
Speaker
I mean,
00:19:55
Speaker
Kids are learning information about how they can expect from other people in their lives.
00:20:00
Speaker
But actually, like we see the most shifts in someone's neuroticism and their agreeableness and their openness and their conscientiousness after they leave home and they can select their own environments.
00:20:10
Speaker
So if you're worried about your kid right now, it's possible that they could change a lot when they're able, you know, when they go off to college or when they start working, they're going to develop these traits that are going to work for them.
00:20:20
Speaker
They're going to become adults.
00:20:22
Speaker
And
00:20:24
Speaker
going to probably be easier to interact with, frankly.
00:20:27
Speaker
Yes, I think that was so helpful, even for me thinking about my own kids and the changes that they still have a long ways to go.
00:20:35
Speaker
But more importantly, I liked the idea of just kind of having like holding all this loosely.
00:20:41
Speaker
I know some moms who go so hardcore into problem solving mode when something's going on with their child and they're researching it and they're doing this and they're trying so hard to fix it.
00:20:50
Speaker
And it's almost just like, oh,
00:20:52
Speaker
Take a breath, like, like, take a step back, like this is going to evolve, whether you do anything about it or not, it's going to evolve no matter what.
00:20:59
Speaker
So I liked what you said about, you know, six months from now, this probably you won't even remember this was even an issue, things like that.
00:21:06
Speaker
So I think that was some really good advice.
00:21:09
Speaker
Is there anything else that we didn't cover that you feel like is really important to squeeze in?
Intersection of Personality Science and Parenting
00:21:15
Speaker
Oh, no, I mean, I think this is like,
00:21:18
Speaker
This is like, when it comes to, you know, just thinking about like personality science and how that relates to parenting.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:21:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, this has been so such an interesting conversation for me.
Upcoming Book on Personality Change and Conclusion
00:21:31
Speaker
And so tell us how people can find you.
00:21:33
Speaker
And I know you have a book that's coming out.
00:21:35
Speaker
So tell us about that.
00:21:36
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:21:38
Speaker
So, um, so I have a book that's hopefully coming out.
00:21:42
Speaker
I am working on the book proposal and trying to find a publisher.
00:21:44
Speaker
And it's basically going to be on actionable steps you can take for intentional personality change.
00:21:51
Speaker
And so if listeners are interested in that, they can follow me on social media.
00:21:58
Speaker
So I am on Instagram at self.made.personality.
00:22:05
Speaker
And or they can visit my website where we have free personality change materials and a science based personality test.
00:22:13
Speaker
And that is www.personality-compass.com.
00:22:18
Speaker
That sounds amazing.
00:22:19
Speaker
Okay.
00:22:19
Speaker
Well, I will be sure to check this out as well.
00:22:21
Speaker
And I'm sure our listeners as well.
00:22:23
Speaker
So thank you, Shannon, so much for the time.
00:22:25
Speaker
And I really appreciate the conversation.
00:22:27
Speaker
Of course.
00:22:27
Speaker
My pleasure.
00:22:28
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me.
00:22:29
Speaker
You're welcome.
00:22:32
Speaker
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00:22:39
Speaker
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