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With Mike D'Virgilio
66 Plays2 years ago
We often speak on PEP Talk about sharing our faith with "friends, colleagues and family". Speaking of family, how do we share our faith with our children? Is that even evangelism? Or is it something we just assume will happen? Today Andy speaks with a self-described "regular guy" who thinks Christian parents can be intentional and persuasive (without guilt or pressure!) in the way they share God's truth with their kids.
Mike D'Virgilio has a B.S. in Communication from Arizona State University and an M.A. in Systematic Theology from Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia. He has worked in public relations, sales, and marketing for over three decades. His first book is an exploration of apologetics for parents called The Persuasive Christian Parent: Building an Enduring Faith in You and Your Children. He also blogs on apologetics and a variety of topics at mikedvirgilio.com.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to another edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from the Solar Center for Public Christianity. And actually, I'm flying solo today because my usual co-host, Christy Mayer, has this terrible excuse that she had actually to teach students today, which I think is a lousy excuse, but that's what she's doing. And so it is
Meet Mike Devagilio: A Persuasive Christian Parent
00:00:31
Speaker
only me. But we're making up for the absence of Christy by being joined
00:00:34
Speaker
by a fantastic guest on the show today. I'm joined by Mike Devagilio. I've pretty pronounced that terribly wrongly. You can correct me. Not bad. All the way from Florida. Mike, welcome to Pep Talk. Well, thank you. It's my honor.
00:00:49
Speaker
Now, Mike, you wear a number of hats, like many guests on the show. But when I asked you before we hit record what you do, you describe yourself as a regular guy, but it was also thought a lot and just put into practice a lot. And then in turn, I've written a book about how you can be, as you put it, a persuasive Christian
Why Teach Children Christianity is True?
00:01:07
Speaker
parent. Is that is that a fair summary? And if so, what is a persuasive Christian parent? Well, yeah, definitely regular because I started this fight late in life of being an author.
00:01:19
Speaker
And, uh, this is sales guy. That's what I do for a living. I sell technology and gone to church all my life and, you know, raising my kids when I had them. Well, the reason I became a Christian was because I thought it was true. And that was the only reason I'm true. Then why even bother? And, uh, and I taught my kids that all their life, you know, if this isn't true, then let's go do something else. You drink and be married. So, um, yeah. So I just live life doing that. I was not very, um,
00:01:51
Speaker
directional about it and teaching five steps to this or that because I'm not real good at that and I don't really like that. But it just kind of flowed out of me that I would do the same for my kids.
00:02:03
Speaker
So how did you stumble across that approach? Cause I meet, I think I meet a lot of Christian parents. I know, I think early in parenting, my wife and I call ourselves drifting into this, that sort of faith is what you do. And perhaps you even do the devotional stuff with the kids and you build that kind of spiritual rhythm for the family. But actually that thing you described there of actually realizing, I need to teach these guys that this is true. How did you stumble across that? How did you realize that was important?
Navigating Secular Culture's Influence
00:02:32
Speaker
Well, probably came across Francis Schaeffer as the God who was there when I was a young Christian. And that was way above my kind of intellectual pay grade. But, you know, that was the message I got, you know, and and it again, I believe Christianity is much caught as taught. And so it has to be a passion. And even though I feel like I'm a fumbling Christian and so on, my kids knew this was this was the thing. This was it. So it just sort of came naturally to me, you know,
00:03:03
Speaker
Yeah, one thing I've wondered over the years, do you think there's sometimes a temptation that we have as Christian parents, as was, you know, myself and, you know, there's things that show we've got kind of perhaps, you know, sort of younger kids, I know you as a grown up now. Do you think there's sometimes a temptation as a Christian parent to sort of outsource it to the church? You sort of think, I'll let the church do
00:03:23
Speaker
to do this. It's not my job as the parent to sort of teach the kids why this is true and all this stuff. That's why we pay the youth worker. Do we think we sometimes outsource a bit too much to our churches rather than take responsibility ourselves? Yeah, well, that's not biblical. I agree, totally. I mean, the parent is totally responsible for raising their children. And part of the answer to your previous question kind of relates to this.
00:03:49
Speaker
is that as the culture has gotten more secular, I talk about something called plausibility structures, which most of Christians have never really even heard of, but the secular culture is so suffocating and it makes Christianity seem not true. Not that people intellectualize or think through it. It just doesn't seem real. God seems more like Santa Claus. So that's why we have to counter the secular narrative. Everywhere you go, this world is it.
The Myth of Cultural Neutrality
00:04:19
Speaker
Yeah. So, so that's why you can't outsource it, you can't. It's in your home. If you're not purposeful about this in some way, this is true, then the culture will have sway with them. You know, I think I totally agree and I think one thing I've
00:04:38
Speaker
come to realize in recent years is I think, you know, sometimes as Christians we can assume that the kind of culture is neutral. I was talking to someone about this the other day, you know, we think back to when we were at school, you know, when I was at school in the 1980s and stuff, it probably was actually much more neutral. And then we assume that the schooling, for example, that our kids go to is like the schooling we remember. And as you say, it's not, there's a very definite agenda there. I mean, to be, I wouldn't be absolutely fair. It's not, it's not always a mad, crazy, progressive one, but there is a secular
00:05:08
Speaker
agenda there, and so the public square for our kids is not neutral, right? Yeah, because I heard N.T. Wright give a Gifford lecture, just like 2018, he says that modern people are Epicureans in that everyone believes in God. I mean, there are very few atheists philosophically, and it's too obvious that this world didn't come from nothing, but we live as if God is not relevant. Practical atheists, if you
00:05:35
Speaker
And so it's even worse, I mean, the new atheist, quote unquote, Richard Dawkins and those guys, you know, they were vehemently angry and against God. And that's, that's kind of better than the ones that just ignore it. So the schooling you talked about, God is like not relevant. So you imbibe that. And unless you counter that in the home, that God is not only relevant, he's everything.
00:05:57
Speaker
And also I think as well, interesting yesterday, I was having coffee with a school chaplain, and we actually finally have to talk around some of this same stuff, Mike. And the point he made, which I thought was interesting, he said one of his concerns and where he's taking the limited influence, he has a chaplain to try and address things a bit, is the level
Integrating Christian Worldview in Education
00:06:15
Speaker
you've talked about. There's also a level where
00:06:17
Speaker
you know, kids, particularly Christian kids, but all kids really, but particularly Christian kids, don't figure out that the subject they're studying and their academic passions, you know, are deeply influenced by the gospel. So he said, you know, if you've got a Christian kid who's doing mathematics, they need to understand the Christian underpinning, they're doing science, the Christian underpinning, the humanities, because otherwise you end up living in a bubble. You put the Christian world on one side and your academic world, and then the two don't meet, and that lays all kinds of trouble for the future.
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah. And that's where Shafer, I mean, for as a good example, just as a practical way about how I did this and even do this to this day, when my kids are adults, we were going to church with my son and I was listening to an apologetics podcast and he's really into music. His name's Dominic. He's 20 now. And he said, we're walking into the church and he goes, dad, you know, I think I like music more than apologetics. I go, dude, music is apologetics. Right. That's God.
00:07:13
Speaker
And we went to a concert once and I said, you know, Dominic, I really feel bad for a lot of those people because they think the music's the point. You know, it all points back to God. That allows you to truly enjoy, you know, so stuff like that. And that can be done through everything and raising our kids all the time. Yeah.
00:07:30
Speaker
So I'm glad you mentioned the words, the kind of little P word, the practical word. So let's, you know, we've talked around some of the sort of the ideas and why you're passionate. Let's talk about some practical stuff, right? So I guess the first question I'd love to sort of throw at you, if people listening to this who are parents, who've got kids and thinking, okay, this sounds great being a more persuasive Christian parent. First question I'll have for you, mate, I mean, how old were your kids when you began? Do you have to wait till they're teenagers to do this? Can you start younger?
Teaching God's Design from Birth
00:07:56
Speaker
When can you actually start perhaps weaving some of this
00:07:59
Speaker
into what you do with your children? That's an important question because, you know, you start when I hyperbolize a lot overstate things, but when they're born, I mean, as young as you can be. But as they start to ask questions, you you bring that in. So to me, the tip of Satan's spear against God and the gospel is creation and somehow countering that with evolution or whatever. Like somehow this isn't God's world.
00:08:28
Speaker
So from the beginning, I use that what I call the design inference, you know, here's an orange, and this is not an accident. Because that's the choice we have. Everything's an accident, or God. And so when they're kids, you know, I would tell them, you know, hey, look at this orange, it's coincidence came out of the ground and has vitamin C, and it tastes great, and it's good for you. And then I would go praise chance. And they're, you know, look at you like
00:08:55
Speaker
about and then so I would explain to them and over time as they grow older they begin to understand that and they can't not see the world through that lens after you've done that four five six whatever to this day my daughter's 30 I'm still do this pull that stuff on her well I think what I like about that is also you can scale that as they got older can't you because they say when they're young that may be all they need is they get older and they go but you hang on down they said this at school or whatever then you can go okay let's now let's now talk about this explore this
00:09:25
Speaker
and it will reach out together? Well, my kids would always come like, I don't know if it was before we got on or since, but you have to interrogate the culture, interrogate everything, question it, right? So I would teach them as they went to school, when they come back and say, what did you learn today or whatever? And then I would, we would critique it. And as they got older in high school, it was fun to do that for them because they said, you just don't allow the culture, academia, Hollywood or whatever, media, carte blanche.
00:09:53
Speaker
just again, sort of probing the kind
Seizing Teaching Moments in Everyday Life
00:09:55
Speaker
of practical side. Obviously, you know, you've got a mind that works this way. So, you know, somebody listening going, well, that's great, because you're obviously great to think of these questions. I'm a dummy. I struggled to think of these cover illustrations. How can somebody get better at spotting those opportunities to do that? Are there ways that we can perhaps develop that and get better at that with our kids? Oh, and of course, read your book, which will be linked in the show notes. Which would be much appreciated. You know, that's hard to say because everyone's different and everyone has inclinations.
00:10:23
Speaker
the beauty of an Augustine, the fourth, fifth century Bishop of Hippo in North Africa. He was so embarrassed, he was a scholar, and he was embarrassed by how simplistic the Bible was to him, like a child's book, and he couldn't stand it. Then when he became a Christian, he started to dive in and he realized this is deep enough for the biggest thinking philosopher, and it's simple enough for a child. Simple things like creation, you don't have to
00:10:53
Speaker
You just have to know God's world and see everything from God's perspective and then work it out the way you work it out. But it's gotta be on your mind all the time, that God is in everything, about everything. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think the other thing that strikes me as you talk there is all of those things actually are things that we should, we're grateful for. We're grateful for the food on our table, the wonders of nature around us. And maybe that's also a way to begin, to be helping your kids go, okay, what are the things that we're grateful for and we enjoy? And then you say, okay, now let's explore those,
00:11:23
Speaker
those two possibilities. Who are we grateful to? Are we just grateful to chance? Are we just grateful to sort of nothingness? Or is it that actually gratitude needs to be redirected to something? And you can really appreciate those. On the other side, I think I have a chapter on gratitude and the inclination of every human being from conception, even birth, is self-pity and victimization. And Paul says, give thanks in all circumstances. And I often joke with my kids that when Paul said in Romans 8.28,
00:11:53
Speaker
Um, all things work together for good. And I would go, well, I'm sure he only met 98%. You know, and they would laugh and, you know, it was like, and so that teaches you to, you don't have to be a scholar to teach your kids to trust God's sovereignty and power and love and grace. And, uh, and overcoming that victim self pity thing. Cause I believe many people abandoned the faith cause they're JP Moreland once said to me, nobody gets mad at the tooth fairy. You know, I mean,
00:12:22
Speaker
People get mad at God because they know who's there and their life isn't just like they want it. But you learn to trust God and teaching them gratitude and personal responsibility. And the trust, I call it the trust challenge is when stuff happens in my problems and challenges and adversities and petty annoyances. They're all of life and the thorns and thistles are there for us to teach us to grow. That's why Jesus wore a crown of thorns.
00:12:47
Speaker
That's helpful. Actually, one of the things that we found, I don't know whether you tried this with your kids when you were raising them. One thing that we found profoundly helpful with our children is introducing them at quite a young age to Christian biography. When I grew up, that was a much bigger thing. I think that's another place where actually the church has forgotten that power because when you... Totally agree.
00:13:07
Speaker
you know there's a wonderful series done by a husband and wife writing team with YWAM called Christian Heroes Janet and Jeff Benj and it's fantastic because they you know there's missionary heroes or folks in the past and a lot one of the things that comes through exactly what you've talked about because you know one of the books they were really struck by was Corrie Ten Boom's story and you know going through the the concentration camps in Second World War and there's that lovely line that she said you'll never be afraid to trust an unknown future to a known god
00:13:36
Speaker
and you know we've really used that with our kids because again they're like you say the suffering thing the uncertainty thing a broken world of going you know the bible's very honest that there will be chaos. I remember asking my daughter on the way to church one day I said who wrote the Amazing Grace? John Newton I go I don't even know about the guy so I read the biography and it's amazing
00:13:58
Speaker
Yeah. Kids get plugged into that sense that there is a much bigger, the church is bigger than your own, just your little local church that you attend. It stretches, you know, back through time and it stretches globally. I think is also part of this too, actually. That was a revelation to me when I was a young Christian. It was just me and Jesus in the Bible. Yes. It was a historical, a political, a theological. And then I found out like, wow, I'm part of something really big here.
00:14:27
Speaker
Yeah. So another question I had, you mentioned a few minutes ago now, we sort of gone down. I love the conversation we have on the show because we wander an interesting direction. Yeah, I love it. But we mentioned even more when Christie is here, I tell you, she got two of us asking questions.
00:14:42
Speaker
Like you mentioned the word media a moment ago, and I think this is a one that a lot of Christian parents struggle with. They want, you know, there are traps there. It seems to me there are equal but opposite traps you can fall into. One is to not worry at all and just let them watch anything and everything. And, you know, I think you cause a whole series of pain if you go that way. Of course, the other direction is to say, right, nothing, nothing. We're not going to do any media at all. We're just going to do flannel graph. And, but somehow, I mean, you said something interesting about interrogating the media and that kind of thing.
00:15:12
Speaker
What has been your experience and what advice would you have for Christian parents helping, again, equip
Questioning Media and Secular Narratives
00:15:17
Speaker
their children for this? Because we live in this media saturated age. It's not just the screen, it's social media as well. And we've got a part of that whole persuasive equipping that you describe is equipping them to navigate and maintain their faith and their integrity with all those challenges. So what advice do you have for parents around that question? Well, it's almost impossible. Well, it really is. And that's the beauty of that is it isn't up to me. Yeah.
00:15:42
Speaker
And ultimately, and I've realized this as I've gotten older that my words have no power in themselves. I can't control, I can't even control myself barely. So how do I control another human being? So the beauty is it's not up to me. And how do you say, you know, don't watch this or you put filters on this and that. And, you know, I've never been good at that. I don't know. But when you teach them to interrogate, to question everything,
00:16:11
Speaker
Nothing just comes through without the filter of God and their faith and truth. And secularism and what it sells doesn't fulfill. It just doesn't. It doesn't ever pay off. And teaching them that as they listen to messages and media and so on and so forth, they get that. When you're walking through the store and you see all the beautiful people on the magazines, what do you do? You go, you tell them that's a lie.
00:16:41
Speaker
or however you might do that, right? Because then they're constantly looking at everything with a jaundice style, right? They're going, huh, you mean I won't be fulfilled if I'm that skinny or wear that makeup or have those muscles or, you know, not that those are bad things. So, you know, I don't have any advice to how you control that because you can't. But if you prepare them for it, the messaging and prepare them to realize the truth,
00:17:09
Speaker
and nothing the world offers can offer you any satisfaction. I don't know if we have time for one more story. There's this British musician, and I won't remember his name, because I've taught, this is my youngest music son, and he comes to me and he goes, check this out. And he goes, shows me this YouTube clip of this guy, because he's played it wimbly, which is the apex, right? He played it wimbly, everything. And he goes, the guy goes, yeah, that was great. And my friend, son, Dominic goes, yeah, now what?
00:17:39
Speaker
His life is fulfilled because he played at Wembley and he's sort of mocking. And, you know, it doesn't do that for you. It just doesn't. And so was that lovely line, isn't there? Was that movie for that sort of about 20 years ago, the cool, cool runnings, the movie about, you know, the Jamaican bobsleigh team. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Lovely line they put into the mouth of the coach played by John Candy, where he tells the team, if you're not enough without a gold medal, you won't be enough with one. Amen. It's an amazing piece of wisdom in a secular movie that actually. Well, and I would mock my kids when they wanted something.
00:18:09
Speaker
So for instance, my son would want a guitar or my daughter would want this. And I go, now you're gonna be fulfilled. It would come in. And I go, now your life has meaning and purpose. And I would, they'd say, shut up. Because they knew. Annoying in the book, I say that's a strategy, being annoying, believe it or not.
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah, all it's got to say, Mike, is I think the other thing as well that we've begun to find helpful, because actually it's a six and nine, so we're sort of moving into a lot more. One of the things we found helpful around media is actually the whole interrogating thing that you described, but also, you know, asking questions after you've watched a piece of media, a movie watcher, say, okay, what is there in there as a Christian we can affirm and go, that's great, that's a little glimpse of
00:18:52
Speaker
you know something Jesus would give thumbs up. What are the things that we might question and go I'm not sure about that and what are things where we might go completely that's that's antithetical that's the opposite because usually there's three things in every story aren't there things where we can go absolutely things where we're like yeah it's only got half the truth and again asking those questions I think again the temptation is just watch the media turn the screen off and
00:19:16
Speaker
and let it go. Well, I have a strategy called the clicker, you know, which is the remote control. And we never get even I, since my kids are not around, I do this to my wife. Then we never get through an entire show without stopping it and me saying something about it or teaching about it or, you know, and that's annoying. But I'm sorry, I'm not going through anything and just letting the message go. You know, whether it's good, bad or indifferent, because there are plenty of great things, even though it might not be overtly Christian.
00:19:43
Speaker
So we've got about sort of three or maybe four minutes, something like that left mic. So I've got one last thing I wanted to talk about just very kind of briefly. I mean, it's been fast, amazingly helpful. And again, just hugely recommend people check out the book because the way to begin.
00:19:58
Speaker
you know, being that persuasive Christian parents to begin thinking more intentionally about it. But we were chatting before we press record, but to me, the other side of this that we're, again, just beginning to think about with our kids is obviously we want as parents, we want our kids to follow Christ. We want them to believe these things are true. But we also want them to be equipped themselves to talk about this with their
00:20:17
Speaker
their friends, because they talk to their friends, they pray for their friends and those and those kind of things.
Equipping Children to Share Their Faith
00:20:22
Speaker
So have you got any advice for Christian parents or around around that area? How do you both, you know, help your kids believe it true, but also then help them, you know, see the importance as part of being a persuasive Christian is to actually be talking with others. And you don't need I don't think you need to be an adult to start being a witness to faith, you can be an adult when you can be a witness when you're six, it's just a six year old level of that. Any thoughts on that whole area?
00:20:45
Speaker
Well, again, that's impossible. I mean, Mike, you know, I'm a voracious reader and, you know, I've told them all their lives and I buy them a book every Christmas, you know, and read more, read more, read more because you can't share it. So that's sort of up to the kid. I found that they're constantly thinking as they're interacting with their friends and they'll come back to me and say, so, and this happens with all three of my kids. My middle son is the least intellectual.
00:21:14
Speaker
And he does it. And, you know, he'll say, my friend David said this, or this and this, and they'll come back and talk to me. And then we can, well, maybe you should have said that, or, oh, that's great. And so that's, it's just to continue to implore and encourage them to do this. Yeah. You know, and they will, they just will, because they catch it from. Yeah. That's the thing to me, I'm horrible at steps, do this, and
00:21:44
Speaker
You know, I'm the last person to ask, to be intentional how you actually do that. But, you know, I think that gives others hope because you don't have to be the 10-step earn. Oh, I've got to make sure I teach my kids this and no, and the pressure isn't on you. Yeah, it isn't because we're responsible, but
00:22:02
Speaker
It's up to God, I have no power. I like the fact that several times in this interview, I love the fact that you said, whatever it is we're thinking about, the initial reaction is impossible. It's also the right place to begin because I think the danger is once we think it's possible, then as you say, we get into right, we need to get the program right and sort this out. And then of course, if it does go wrong, you tear yourself up with guilt that you could have done something different. And when I said, if it goes well, you pass yourself up with pride.
00:22:32
Speaker
Right, right. When I first started talking to people about the book, some people sort of got offended that they thought I was guaranteeing that your child could stay a Christian and have enduring faith. And somehow, it's like, no, you can't guarantee anything. And we are in control of literally nothing. That's why there's no pressure. That's why it's, hey, if my kid goes off, I tell people, if my kid went off to college, came back and said, I don't believe now, I said, OK, great. Why?
00:23:02
Speaker
Justify now that this is true versus Christianity, right? You've chosen an alternative. OK, great. I wouldn't go like I'm a terrible parent. I mean, I am a terrible parent. I don't know whatever, you know, I'm just what I the best I can be and trust God. You know, that's that's fantastic place to end. And I also love the fact we ended where where we began that it all comes down to truth and whether it's whether it's true. And Jesus is the truth. Amen.
00:23:31
Speaker
Mike, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you for taking the time and making the time zones work. Again, for people who want to check out Mike's book, hugely recommend it. In fact, we had Mike on the podcast because one of my colleagues read the book and went, you got to look at this. There's a link in the show notes. Do check it out.
00:23:51
Speaker
and probably be listening at home or in the car or wherever you are, thanks for giving us 25 minutes of your time and I'll be back in two weeks time with my co-host, I hope, for another episode of Pep Talk. Thanks for listening.