Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Everything Action Cast, the official podcast of EverythingAction.com.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Everything Action Cast, podcast for the week of May 12th, 2025. I'm your host, Zach. I'm your co-host, Chris. And this week we're getting into the mind of a killer and talking about Mindhunters, which came out 20 years ago this week. came out on ah May 13th, 2005.
Speaker: Although it came out, apparently it came out in every other country in the world besides the US in like 2004 and just got delayed for ah for a variety of reasons until it just kind of got dumped out in 2005. Yeah, i don't think we're ever going to get like a full history of why.
Speaker: Well, there was it was something with... um Because it was like Dimension Films. Dimension Films was going bankrupt. There was something with like... Or it got sold to Fox. And then Fox sold it to Dimension. And then there was a whole bunch of like other stuff. I think it was a bunch of background ah weird like Hollywood business deals going on.
Speaker: oh yeah, they got they got sold... Miramax and Dimension got sold to Disney.
Speaker: And then this guy kind got caught in that... like The wave of that.
Speaker: i don't i don't know if this was a really like highly advertised movie. I mean, did it didn't do well at all. It was a huge bomb. ah Yeah, I think there's also this era of early 2000s where if it wasn't sci-fi, it wasn't doing well. If it wasn't like The Matrix...
Speaker: You know, because it's like 2002-2004 was this weird era of movies of just, like, either two out of, like, the, the like, scope of things, where it's, like, companies riding high from the 90s profits to try to break into, like, some new, like, understanding of movies making.
Speaker: And, like, you could tell, even in this movie, they tried some creative shots that just don't work. Yeah. But yeah, like, I still remember like what the this era of 2002 and like if it wasn't Spider-Man, I don't know what what it was.
Speaker: Yeah, i'll all the like, kind of like B and C tier movies that weren't like the huge blockbusters. There's was a lot of like forgotten, bizarre, kind of like this this style movie.
Speaker: Of just like, oh, on paper, it sounds like a classic setup for either a horror or a murder mystery or something, but it just became like white noise to other movies that just sort of like have a semblance.
Speaker: I use superhero movies as like a good like focal point because like it bled into that, where it just was too much in one movie. And Mindhunters has a lot of cool concepts, but they they force it down in one movie, and it's just, like, non-stop.
Speaker: Like, if you ever saw the trailer, it takes its time and slows it down and explains a lot, but when you watch it, it's a totally different experience.
Speaker: um Another movie that reminds me of, like, I've seen this movie already, was, like, I See You. Yes. It's very similar. And I think they came out around the same time too. Yeah, i feel I feel like there is this kind of mini genre of like FBI agents or specialists or something where they, and they're like trapped in an area and then one of them is a killer and they have to figure out which was the killer. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of the Sylvester Stallone movie. It's ICU. It's ICU, yeah. But there was like another movie that they call it, like Detox. Detox, yeah. Because that one, they were in like the like Antarctic like rehab facility or something. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: So it's very similar. And I think I prefer ICU or detox better than this. And here's the thing. like I think I saw this, like... I saw ICU...
Speaker: Like, early. I rented that. And then I saw My Hunters later. I rented that, because I had blockbuster rewards. So, you know, gotta use those reward points.
Speaker: um And I just had, like, deja vu, you know? I just like... It's very similar. There's a serial killer doing something on this, like, what's supposed to be, like, a safe environment.
Speaker: But... Mindhunters does something where, like, it almost takes place on, like, a movie set. <unk> It's like a crazy like training facility that just looks terrible. Do you sleep in the facility?
Speaker: They didn't separate like the the like training quarters and then the like the test ground. It made it seem like you stay in the test ground of whatever they're doing. Yeah, it's nuketown. It's like an atomic...
Speaker: um an atomic ah bomb, like, fake village. i think I think it's actually, like, the training ground for, is it, like, the Swedish police, the German police or something? Like, one of the actual, like, European police forces uses that place for, like, riot training.
Speaker: Oh, it's like a real city they filmed in? Yeah, the the the the Dutch anti-riot police use that fake village for, like, anti-riot training. wow That's pretty funny.
Speaker: because Because, you know, i mean, like i was thinking, oh, it's a Hollywood glitz of it. But nothing about that screams like Dutch. no It's very generic hometown that I couldn't pinpoint exactly where it was.
Speaker: it feels It feels like, you remember, or did you ever read about how the Soviet Union like made like fake American streets or American city like escapes? They were like, when we evade America, well this is like your training for when we evade America.
Speaker: they had like Yeah, i did like it makes sense to like know your terrain. Mm-hmm. Like, small town USA, but it's, like, all, like, the Soviet Union, like, built these, like, training facilities.
Speaker: And it makes it makes perfect sense to me that, because you have Val Kilmer as, like, the instructor of this group, that it's just, like, over-the-top theatrical.
Speaker: Where he's spending, like like, who knows how many, like dollar like, tax dollars to fund these elaborate, like, simulations of serial killers, ah like, attacks or cases.
Speaker: Just blowing a budget to just come up with, like, fun amusement park ideas. Yeah, i want i want see I want to see a scene where he has to, like, um hand in his budget or like, his, like, requisition form.
Speaker: It's like, wait, what do you need? You need, like, 30 actors and, like, two cars, yeah like, an abandoned house? what What are you doing?
Speaker: Yeah, don't seem like he flew that in. Even, okay, now this movie has like a ah fake out that like kind of sets up a promise that it's going to be something like, you know, more.
Speaker: Or like really comes to a crawl to just be a generic horror thing. Where they do almost like a criminal mind, CSI investigation and...
Speaker: Knowing that we know that the first part of the movie, the first act, is just, like, another prop house, it's super elaborate. Like, it's super goddamn, like, like, a haunted... Like, it's one of those, like, high-end scare attractions you, like, pay for.
Speaker: Yeah, like, Valkyrie has set up, like, a Halloween Horror Nights, like, maze for his, like, students to go through. Because. Because. it' that well he's like you you ah it's It's like that crossed with like a paintball thing, because they're like shooting they shooting like blanks or whatever they're shooting, because they get taken down and killed. Quote-unquote killed.
Speaker: Yeah, okay, but I get like having the guns and the feedback for it, but man, like when whenever they go for the um like the the whole house, whatever they themed it, as if it's a like a crazy like Just like, oh, is this like a tourist attraction later?
Speaker: what you know what I mean? like it And then it's like a cleanup process they have to like hire. because they show like FBI guys breaking down the house afterwards. it's like, well, you guys failed. Now we gotta take down these mannequins and fake blood and this cake that apparently is real that Velcro is just eating.
Speaker: He's eating the crime scene cake. Okay, so i even on this like rewatch, this is probably my fifth time watching this. Val Kilmer doesn't come come across as the bad guy.
Speaker: it's It's like not conveyed enough for me.
Speaker: No, because i mean this one the fake outs is later on. Is like oh is he behind? is is he like Did he go crazy? He's like he's trying to kill his his students. Right. Is he trying to eliminate them because they're the best? I don't know.
Speaker: But if there were hints at it, that would make sense. like Okay, so this movie almost has that like thing paranoia where you don't know if everyone is who they say they are.
Speaker: Yes. But they don't know how to do it correctly. And it's not like... It's not like there's not enough cast people. It's not enough that the actors don't have and like a lot.
Speaker: It's just what they give them... like It just can't seem real. like it's It's very Joker-esque setups. And then... It's like a Heath Ledger Joker of just like, none of this makes sense. But then there's like... oh i It kind of plays into the movie, but not really.
Speaker: And then... There's there's no... There's no like coherent, like this all ties in and makes sense. like Not to spell so much by the end, but like the movie just ends.
Speaker: It's just like, we did it, the end. like Don't question everything, don't question like who this guy was, don't question like the whole island, how this person knew about the island ahead of time and all that. like You know what I mean? like For an island that was secretly a death trap, it seemed really easy for one person to do all this.
Speaker: that that's That's the point where i think like the time it collapses is if you try to figure out how the killer had time to set up every all these elaborate traps.
Speaker: and even Even just the first one, like they would have to have snuck out like the first night, I guess, and rigged that up and then... um had that ready to go, but then there's other ones later on like had to be set up, like, ahead of time, and it's just... We try to figure out the like, the logistics of how that happened. It's just, like, how you have the time?
Speaker: how you do you with, like, no one seeing you?
Speaker: yeah but Well, guess I guess i guess they like um
Speaker: trying to remember if the killer... Do I just spoil it? Or do you want to talk a little bit more? We'll talk about some more until we get to spoiler part because I feel like we're not there yet. We we can skip it if you're not. because it's still We need to explain like all the characters because then it's like when they watch them unravel, some some of them make sense but like a lot of them don't.
Speaker: but yeah it'ss It's a very eccentric group of characters. um and It's a mix of You know like stars like Christian Slater and LL Cool J and then like character actors like Clifton Collins Jr. and ah ah Catherine Morris, who's going to be in Cold Case in like a couple years after this. So this is like her kind of training to be in Cold Case.
Speaker: And then Johnny Lee Miller doing a horrible Texas accent. That's what was ah his accent? Well, I mean, J. Lee Miller is obviously you know British.
Speaker: But, I mean, he's on a scale of ah youre like British actors who you can't tell they're British, like like Tom Holland or Hugh Laurie or something. And then like ah Gerard Butler and Liam Neeson, he's toward that end. where it's like
Speaker: Him trying to a Texas American accent is just hilariously terrible.
Speaker: You know, I couldn't figure out his accent. I thought it was supposed to be like Boston. It could be anything. I feel like it was i feel like he was putting a little drawl on it. so i I think it was supposed to be South or something. don't know if it's specifically Texas, but definitely Southern.
Speaker: I wonder if he and Will Kemp, who actually gets to use his British accent, if they like drew straws or flipped coin or something to see who would have to do like the crazy like Texas accent.
Speaker: like well, Johnny, you lost. You gotta be you gotta to be the southern guy. Yeah,
Speaker: yeah it just, like, comes off as weird. Because when he tries to do, like, a freakout scene, it just, it's like a mush of accents. And I think, like, this this is his only movie where does all, like, a Texas accent.
Speaker: He just gave up. He just can't be, like, hacker guy from Hackers. Mm-hmm. He really had a stress. Like he's from Texas and it plays into nothing like it. it It didn't have to be that where his character is like very vital to be from Texas.
Speaker: You know, it wasn't like, oh, I can solve this. It's from a Texas crime or something. Well, it it was probably just pushing credibility or like believability too much. They already had one British guy where you really aren't like, I think they mentioned the movie that but you can't, you normally don't hire like foreign nationals into the FBI. they had like two British guys. like It could be something where like they both came from like British agency and like in exchange and they're here, you know? out debt Yeah, that would have made sense.
Speaker: <unk> And then, it you know, like, it could just be like, they're not, they came from the same, like, academy, but like, they're not friends. I feel like that's fair to say to a lot of these people, because that's something too I'm sort of confused about, about this movie is that like, it seems like they all met that week.
Speaker: But then it's like, no, they've been like training the same school for months. because there's this scene at the bar where they're all hanging out and they've obviously known each other for a while and they're profiling people at the bar. They're mind-freaking people. they sit And they start like mind-hunting each other.
Speaker: But their mind hunting each other really wasn't a lot. It was just sort of like, you don't like this, you don't like that. And it's like, oh man, you think you know me? It's like, you don't know me. There's like a line that says that. It's like, oh, I don't belong here something. was something early that one of the British guys says. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker: ah those was ah um at the but At the bar, um try and like I remember specific line, but
Speaker: was I was thinking about LL Cool when when they he like shows off his mighty hunting abilities when they think he's the killer. He's just like profiles everybody's like, you! you' you You're this! You're this! You're this! You're this!
Speaker: But that's all surface level stuff. This is what I pulled off in like five minutes. I'm more thinking of the but scene where they all broke off into pairs. And then they're like, oh...
Speaker: ah the one guy profiles where it's like, oh, hey, we're gonna solve this killer, like, call me, like, a big fan or something. The British guy says it a one-off line. And I guess it's supposed to like, misdirect you, but it just comes off as, like, bad writing to me.
Speaker: Well, I feel like they gave every character, like, one one's character like character quirk, and that's that's their entire character. It's like, Purchase of Lascaz, she quit smoking, but she wants to smoke.
Speaker: The one guy like does machines.
Speaker: That is true. They really tried to stress how like the technical guy was. and then It's like right as they introduced that, they killed them off. So it's like, don't worry about that.
Speaker: But like some of them aren't like big enough serial killer quirks. Like, one guy likes, you know, mechanical stuff.
Speaker: So, obviously, he might be the killer. like Because the killer's bringing up these elaborate ah traps that involve ah mechanisms and clocks and timers.
Speaker: Okay, so I guess before we get into spoilers, because then they do the, like, what does the person do action to determine if they're, like... good or not, and then they keep stressing like, no one, if like, walks in front of a bomb, like, no one leads you into a bomb, like, you know what I mean? Like, the the stupid Lucas part where he explains that I can't be the killer because I walked into a bomb.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. It's like, it's really crucial. The movie stresses that as if it's some giant detail and not just like, oh, but you weren't like at the boat. but there You probably figured out how safe the explosion would be that would kill you. So like, you didn't want to die.
Speaker: You probably didn't want your guests to die from the bomb. So like, yeah, you decoyed them. hmm.
Speaker: Because, did you did he, he only like a scrape? It wasn't like he... He had some splinters in his ah shoulder, because it was like a wooden dock, and it blew up, so like splinters, I guess, flew off and hit him.
Speaker: But like, i don't i think... Was the bomb, wait, was the bomb before after the coffee? I think it was before, right? i think I think it was they go to, they find like the fake mannequin, the crime scene that Val Kilmer actually set up, which is the puppeteer. They're trying to find as i think a killer called the puppeteer, but Val Kilmer has rigged up these mannequins around the town.
Speaker: And then you get the Christian Slater like executive decision scene where he gets killed by liquid nitrogen. Oh, OK, so I want to go back to that scene real quick then. Yep. That liquid nitrogen tank. Was it like.
Speaker: Propelled at Christian Slater like it is. It hits him and blasts him like so hard that like almost all of them freezes. Yeah, and I don't.
Speaker: It was like fan blown. It was like coming from the tank and the tank shot. It just looks like it's leaking out like just a normal like, oh, it the lid fell off. Yeah, I think what's happening to him is like a totally different effect.
Speaker: Yeah, which but liquid nitrogen cannot do that. It cannot freeze you instantly. You don't get sub-zeroed by nitrogen. Yeah, it is it is literally like he's being attacked by sub-zero and his body's freezing from the foot. But in the way this special effect is happening, it is like a bad video you game.
Speaker: Especially when he falls over and and shatters, then like his like eye freezes. Just his eyes. His face, a little frosty, but his eyes, it goes cold. But his hair is fine.
Speaker: it's It's such a like weird effect that They just couldn't, like, dedicate it. Like, I know they didn't want to do the full, like, Terminator 2 liquid nitrogen effect, or even the Demolition Man, ah like, the droplet that freezes someone.
Speaker: Yeah, and then Chris Slayer, like, turns completely white and frosty. Uh-huh. But it looks like at the end of that incident, it just looks like he was standing too close to the snowmaking machine.
Speaker: At least from that like torso effect. The realistic part. The CGI legs and all that. it's It's shocking to see the first time because it just happened so quick. And then, again, the the glaring thing is the liquid nitrogen tank that is just softly letting out gas and then The CGI version that is basically him transforming into ice.
Speaker: it's ah And it's it's such a forceful blast that it's like ripping his pants apart. And I guess he's cold too.
Speaker: It's so weird. i mean, it's it's the first kill. But it's just like, oh, we could have done this better. You could have just dropped something on him.
Speaker: You could have maybe... I don't know, threw him in a container, make a false floor, ah hung him up with puppet strings.
Speaker: I mean, that happens later somewhat. it's Well, I mean, in the first death, you know, yeah oh it's like, open this box. ah hot Oh, puppet master. I get it. And it's like, then, then, then like, instead of like paint, you know how they expect maybe getting shot and there's paint, have it be a real bullet, have it be a real knife or like, you know i mean? Like the,
Speaker: Okay, here's the weird thing. Now I'm thinking about it further. In the opening scene, where basically they're attacked and shot and, like, ah ah cold cases stabbed.
Speaker: Yep. They are acting. Yes. They have to act as if shooting this is not as scary, and then when they get hit or stabbed, they have to pretend like it's way worse. Because, like, for us, the shock of the audience is that we're watching a fake event. We're watching, like, a movie within a movie.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. Uh, so that's why when something really serious happens, it just goes back into movie mode. Not like, oh, was Christian Slater playing along? Was this like some new like thing, you know, like.
Speaker: Oh, like a lot of the other guys weren't part of that other training exercise. So they don't know that like a lot of this could be super fake and also about Kilmer's character.
Speaker: probably pays like top budget for um like all these stupid effects and props. i feel I feel like Velkimer's putting the other like other like team members into like different... either either I feel like either all of them ran that one house and from the beginning, and then like or like they're like doing different like simulations.
Speaker: So I feel like they all know that Velkimer... They're all in the heads of it that this is all fake.
Speaker: and there's there's like then But then the freaking ice freezing just looks fake, so I could see them not believing it for the first few minutes, but they all believe it instantly, though.
Speaker: Man, that would be that'd be like a like David Copperfield level magic trick. of like They swapped out Christian Slater like somehow, like ah like an ice block, like a fake ice block Christian Slater.
Speaker: yeah because He comes back later, just like, ha It was all fake. You're wondering how I did this. Oh man, how great would it be if you know, that happened, and then everything happened, like they were like killing each other, and like, um you know, freaking out, and then the end this is like, guys, it was all it was all trick!
Speaker: Okay, to be fair, what we're describing is bodies, bodies, bodies. Mm-hmm. Which is a different kind of dumb horror. But I didn't mind bodies, bodies, bodies.
Speaker: But it's like, at least in that movie, it makes sense to for them to be all like, kind of freaking out and doing, and in like, scaring each other and then like kind of having no training because they don't.
Speaker: Everyone in that island has training, though. Or has at least worked something. They're on the verge of being like FBI profilers.
Speaker: But you still have to be an FBI agent, though. Well, yeah.
Speaker: Profile just means your special like a specialty is like narrowing it down. like Think about Sons of the Lamb. ah Claire Reese was an FBI agent, but then they said, okay, we're we're going to up you into the new special field.
Speaker: We're goingnna make you like a profile agent, so that way you can go after serial killers. We're making you a Mindhunter. They probably don't say that like that, but in this one, it was yeah the Mindhunter League. Well, I mean there there was the so like the Netflix show, Mindhunters, there's an actual FBI agent. It was based on like an FBI agent's book called Mindhunter.
Speaker: So at least at least one guy, and one actual FBI agent calls himself a Mindhunter. At least one, right.
Speaker: i don't I don't know if that's like a widely used term in the FBI, though. I guess the original title this movie was was was supposed to be called Unsub. that But that makes more sense. Yeah, it's like an fbi it's actually FBI term they probably use all the time. At least in Criminal Mind, they do.
Speaker: And it also app plays into like, oh, it's an unknown subject. We don't know who the killer is. Yep. See, I would like it too if the killer also did stuff that reminded them of their childhood or their personality. But because it's all random traps, there's nothing that makes them unique.
Speaker: You know what I mean? Well, they try to play it off later where ah Catherine Morris is like, oh, the killer is using our weaknesses against us. like Christian Slater, he leads he always leads us, so he led us into like the that trap.
Speaker: the And then the one guy's good with machines and he tried to fix then he got killed by spears.
Speaker: So they they try to explain it, but then it still doesn't make any sense.
Speaker: Because killer would have to know... Like, there's so many steps the like the killer would have to know who's going to go where, who's going to what, and at what time to try to like make this all work.
Speaker: Yeah, that's why I'm like, um am i confused about this? Like, what makes his serial killer different?
Speaker: Like, I don't know... It just seemed like it was like Saw without the cleverness.
Speaker: Yeah, it was it was just someone who rigged up traps and what like I guess the explanation is they were they were getting bored of... They wanted like a like ah but up broader ah better like target or better prey because were getting bored.
Speaker: That's why they joined the FBI. They're like, i want to i want to kill better i but kill like ah more highly... ah Like how they train prey.
Speaker: but but yeah. That comes off so stupid because he had to go to the FBI school and all this for that. And there nothing came up on any sort of like psychological exam that this like that he might have you know like some sort of tendencies to be a healer.
Speaker: oh Yeah, like he passed it all. Well, ah maybe because he's like a sociopath where he knew the right things to say because his brain is like, oh, if I say this, I'll i'll pass. Yeah. But there's nothing that comes off that way.
Speaker: It's just at the end, it's like an exposition dump.
Speaker: like It's like a couple lines like, hey, this is why i did everything. Isn't that so cool? like Okay, okay you um want let's get into the spoiler territory now, it's full on. yeah so like Everyone keeps getting picked off in dumb and clever ways, I guess.
Speaker: Some of them are cool, some of them are dumb. but Yeah, yeah the the cigarette thing was kind of cool, only it's like a visual thing, but the whole... like how How does the acid work?
Speaker: You have to light it up for it to burn, and then it's like, it just stays on forever? Like, ah you know, like... it Like, it turned, like the smoke turned acidic, because her face was melting, but then it looked like only a couple drops, like, dripped on our like her shoe and, like, fingers, but then it just started spreading everywhere.
Speaker: Her blood became acidic? Yeah.
Speaker: It's basically alien blood. like Her entire body is like an alien. Like, oh god! got affected by xenomorph. Xenomorph.
Speaker: So that happened. um The Clifton Jr. kill was eh. Like, it's so forgettable. Well, so fast. Yeah.
Speaker: It's just, you have to know that he was gonna go, you had to know that you were gonna take away his gun, and that he was gonna go and, like, try to take Christian Slater's gun, so you rigged Christian Slater's gun to explode if someone used it.
Speaker: But did he rig it after Christian Slater died, and then swapped in the bullet, or just, like...
Speaker: I don't know, like... he predicted that? I feel like a like ah lot of stuff got done during the, like, whenever it was, like, knocked out during coffee, because trying to remember, because I feel like, didn't, did the kill, like, are we just like, Johnny Lee Miller?
Speaker: Like, didn't he, wasn't he, like, not knocked out, and then he was able to do a bunch of stuff? Yeah, he got up, and I guess was running around the island, setting all this. And, like, I'm trying to remember how long it was, because it I think it was, like, because the clock jumps forward about a couple hours. Like, he had, like, a, like,
Speaker: four or five hours of andverted time to, like, just set everything up, I guess. Or the rest of it. But I still don't understand when he had time to, like, rig up the krista but Christian Slater trap. Because they they arrive on the island, they're all together.
Speaker: and then they go the next day, and then it's like, oh, this trap's rigged up. I think maybe he did that that night. But, see, it's supposed to be, like, he was so clever on his feet, he did this by just looking around the place and just doing this by hand. Because he brought no equipment.
Speaker: Mm-hmm. it's implied that he was just like, oh, cool, like it's a playground for me. I can just set up what I want. Right? It comes off that way. If I'm wrong, you know maybe that's just me not paying attention, but it just seemed like he walked around and just MacGyvered all these traps, and then he was going to get away Scott Clear.
Speaker: Everyone's supposed to be dead. He's going to be like, i don't know what happened. guess the serial killer was here. Well, he there he was setting up Catherine Morris to be the killer because like he somehow put the her blood under...
Speaker: um the British guy's fingernails or someone's, cause they had this whole scene where they, they basically do like the, ah the thing blood tests. Oh yeah. Yeah. Cause they had, they have like the unknown subjects blood and it's like, Sarah is killer.
Speaker: And then it was like, there's other steps where he's like, well, you, you know, you, uh, we got your, we got your blood and then you, uh, uh you shut you you attacked you did like oh cool j and ah like there's a whole bunch a bunch of other stuff that like made it's like i said all this make you look suspicious like you're the killer and also yeah you have that you have that uh psychological issues with where you're know you were like in the water when your sister died or whatever that whatever that was
Speaker: which Was that it was that a serial killer? can I can't remember if that was like a... If like her her like sister or whoever it was got killed by a serial killer or it just... Like they both fell the water and she drew drowned? i think her sister like just fell in the water and drowned.
Speaker: But don't know if she was with her. We never see a flashback. We never get anything that's like... She has the dream. She has like the dream. It's like the opening is like she's like in the car and it's like... I guess it's supposed be like her dream. But then it cuts like it's raining on the window.
Speaker: mean like It's visually like they're trying to go for creative over practical.
Speaker: And that's the problem for me. It just doesn't work.
Speaker: Oh, and then we we really talked about like there's like the whole element of ah like the killer is laid out these codes. like you like like painted codes on the wall with the British guy's blood because he drained all the like ah Rafe's blood.
Speaker: After you like because and actually everyone wakes up from like the coffee, the coffee gets spiked with like sleeping pills or something. And then they go to Rafe, the British guy, and then they back um like ah bump him and like his head falls off, but he has no blood.
Speaker: And then they go into the next room and it's like, oh, there's like all these blood numbers on the walls. yeah i don't know what that was.
Speaker: It was... They're like... well like um but was it Is it ah Bobby, like the the mechanical guy, is like, oh, it's the speed of light. don't i don't i don't think they ever i don't think did they ever really figure out what the numbers are. because and Oh, but it's it's it's like, oh, speed of light, that means turn off the lights.
Speaker: but That's what they jump to. It's like a dumb Riddler clue. It's like something saw in a Batman. Or like an escape room. It's like the worst escape room.
Speaker: And then they find out there's letters on the back of their jackets that also spell out something. Which I think we find out is like Croatoan, which is you know the that ah like Virginia colony that disappeared.
Speaker: Like Roanoke. Yeah. Oh my god. What a stupid serial killer. So they're like, oh man, he he just wants to be infamous. that like He wants to be infamous like Roanoke.
Speaker: Why is he... like Why don't you spell like an actual like and like ah an actual like other like serial killer? Like Dalmer or something? like that but He didn't want to. He wanted to be unique. But he was cryptic and... just because but he was like riptic and There was no mythos of behind the serial killer thing.
Speaker: You know what I mean It's like... ah Okay. We're going to go into super spoiler territory where it's like we reveal who the killer is. think we've already kind of like mentioned it. buts So because it was... What's his face? Johnny Lee Miller.
Speaker: Johnny Lee Miller playing Lucas Harper.
Speaker: He just killed his parents. And then it's like he got away with it and he enjoyed thrill. thrill Yes. But was it that he never killed again?
Speaker: So he waited until this moment to then try his hand at it? like To do like a crazy setup? I think he just kept escalating and then he escalated to the point where he joined the FBI to take down like the best that like people who could who could possibly catch him.
Speaker: Or like that would be like oh like, this would be a fun game. I'll all kill FBI agents who are trained to fight serial killers.
Speaker: But, like, just because it's, like, he comes out of nowhere in this movie. Like, everyone does. And then because he doesn't have, like, a serial killer ah background, he's just, like, the random guy who loves playing these, like, mind games against the Mindhunters.
Speaker: If... If he set up more of a, like, cryptic clues where it's like, oh, you thought, like, you're chasing the puppet master? Well, like, now you're after, like, the mind master, and it's, like, a whole different set of rules, and then the, like, what he knows about, he actively taunts them that, like, he knows their weaknesses.
Speaker: That would be more of a, like, a pacing, because then it's, like, you don't know which guy is playing this, like, social game and then like psyching them out so then if everyone's like trusting you know i mean like it's like him saying already i'm one of you try to find me or like i'm i'm here but like you can't see me i see you but you can't see me yeah see that's i say i see you does a better movie of that I feel it's like Johnny Miller, he should have set it up to look like he died, and then he can just like run around like but like undetected be like, now I free range to do whatever I want because I think I'm dead. See, okay. this takes That's like a classic like and then there were none rule.
Speaker: Where one guy does fake his death, and then is able to do this. So... he sort of does that at the end but like it doesn't make sense because it's like no impact after after the like insane like gunfight that like you have no idea where anyone is or who's shooting at who where it's just it gets to the point where everyone just starts freaking out and just like shooting each other guess it's really just lakujay and like john lee miller just doing parkour yeah at a certain point like lakujay just loses his goddamn mind
Speaker: He's just like, well, if I don't know who the killer is, I'm just gonna kill everybody.
Speaker: i get it. He wants to live. And they really, they really, they really spend a lot of time trying to set up, like, LL Cool J is is the killer. Because it's like, oh, he's mysterious, he joined the group late.
Speaker: Oh, he's here for, like, ah weird, like, he's saying he's here for, like, an alternate reason.
Speaker: But it just comes off as like, It's like, so obvious he's not the killer. Yeah. You what I mean? It's like, Maybe if you like this is your first thriller movie, you could think, ooh, maybe it is.
Speaker: This is like, you don't really see LL Cool J in bad guy roles.
Speaker: You don't. like when I don't know when's the last movie he was like the bad guy.
Speaker: I mean, he was in... um mean, he but he wasn't he was in Deep Blue Sea right before this, also directed by Brady Harreland.
Speaker: Wait, this was Renny Harlan? Renny Harlan directed Mindhunters, yeah. this is like He directed Deep Blue Sea, Driven, and then Mindhunters. Yeah,
Speaker: nine hundred just just not... Okay, man, what a record. Anyway. Yeah, like... Because I think out of everyone, he was like the bigger known actor...
Speaker: definite Definitely him Christian Slater. They were like the two. probably and Val Kilmer is more of like a cameo than a co-star. Yeah. yeah like It's a full cast.
Speaker: I just feel like when when Val Kilmer is in the movie, it's great. And then when he's not in it, it really takes a dip.
Speaker: I couldn't tell if it's because they wanted to make Val Kilmer the bad guy, and it's like, nah, I don't see that happening. You want to make Alikuji the bad guy? It's like, no, don't see that happening either. He just, like, doesn't make any sense for him.
Speaker: Yeah, I feel like they're focused lot on, well, could be anybody. then they do When you do that, they then it's like, when they really, like, Johnny Miller's the killer, it's like, and they give him, like, the bare bones motivation, you're like, alright.
Speaker: Yeah. like You might get set this up a little bit more during the actual movie instead of trying to make it like, well, it could be, everyone's everyone's a killer, maybe. Everyone's got a reason. I wouldn't mind that.
Speaker: Even in the twist that, like, the main hero's also the killer, you know? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: ah You know one movie, you know what I haven't seen in a while of a twist thriller, like Murder Mystery, is that like everyone did something. like Like, it like looks like it's a, it's like one guy, but it's actually everyone trying to kill someone else.
Speaker: Like Murder on Dory Express? Something like that. and Instead of like everyone against one person, this is like everyone against each other. And they're all just going clever about it.
Speaker: Kind of like Clue, like in the alternate ending. Or like the real ending. Where all seems like one person's doing it, but then surprise, it's all it's like one person each time. Yeah, each each person killed one of the other. like Everyone's responsible for one death.
Speaker: That would been fun if like they all had like grudges against each other, and then you find out it's like, well, ah you know Catherine Morris killed Patricia Velasquez, she was jealous of Patricia Velasquez, and then ah Kutnikov Jr. killed ah Bobby because ah from of reasons. and like If they all have a reason to kill it another person.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's like, it was just whatever was kicking it off. The catalysts, and then they'll just see they were smart enough to see if they were all trying to get away with it.
Speaker: Because they all know that basically only the other kind of like rival would stop them. Because they've been up uped like they've been analyzing each other.
Speaker: So they know that this is their only competition for the Covenant like profile role. So it's like, if you die in training, like it's better for me.
Speaker: like I won't have like another chance like this. Well, think, didn't they, like like, Catherine Morris and Clancy Collins Jr. were like already not going to be profilers, they were just but then it's, I guess maybe if they impressed Val Kilmer enough in this like yeah final so simulation, they would get to be profilers.
Speaker: Because Clancy Collins Jr. was like, I found his report card, his reports on us, and he said, I'm not going to profiler, and Sarah's not a profiler either. but everyone else was.
Speaker: Yeah, everyone's already in.
Speaker: And I think that's that's like the like one of the reasons they're like, well, yeah, because Sarah found out she wasn't going to be profiler, so that's why she's like killing all of us, cause she's because she's she went nuts because of that.
Speaker: So that's why she rigged the nitrogen tank, and then that's why she deep-contapitated the other dude, and then drained his blood, and wrote out this formula, and then...
Speaker: rigged up they like like a flood to start happening in the basement and then like lights the blast off and shock shock the water
Speaker: which i love wish i love I love that was like that entire scene was just for Elok Hujan to show off like like his guns and show off like how ripped he is. I'm going to a full scene pull-up, basically.
Speaker: just going like, ninja warrior myself to the set. It was pretty cool. ah just like it's from a I feel like that's a scene from a different movie. It was pretty awesome when he shoots the wall and makes like like well like a hand grips because of the bullet holes. don't think I've ever seen that before in a movie.
Speaker: Nah, I don't think that can really happen. also think maybe that's not like real plaster that they would use. It's like movie plaster. It's like super sheet drywall that you just like, you'd like punch, like shoot a bullet and like punch it and make it like handholds.
Speaker: You see, that's the thing. I don't know if where they were was part of the simulation of just the facility, or it's like they sleep under the facility, so like wouldn't that wall be sturdier than you could climb it and punch holes in it? you know like You'd figure a military training base would have sturdier walls.
Speaker: Yeah, if you could if you could punch through the wall to make handholds, i don't think that would hold your weight. if like I feel like that would like kind of crumble if you're trying to put your whole weight on it. That's what I i would think.
Speaker: Oh, you know what we haven't mentioned, you too? It's like, are there so many cats on this island? Yes, I forgot about that. Holy shit. A million cats? It's like, is the army just bringing cats? It's like, man, it's tradition. We gotta bring a cat every time we come to this island to train.
Speaker: Who's feeding the cats? Yeah, what are they eating? Because they're like an island off of, like, North Carolina, they said? Mm-hmm. Yep.
Speaker: Wait, wait. This is an aisle off of North Carolina. Why are why is this like Belgium? Why is it like Arctic? Yeah. It's like snowing.
Speaker: yeah because they they they specifically look at a map and said like, this is where we are. They're talking about like Roanoke is nearby. but i think Roanoke was in Virginia.
Speaker: david Maybe it was one of the Carolinas. Yeah.
Speaker: Oh yeah, it it was North Carolina. it It was an island. So yeah, I guess yeah but still, I don't think it's getting a lot of snow or freezing temperatures.
Speaker: maybe Maybe recently with all the you know crazy weather but because of like climate change. but This movie's not clever enough to tie that in.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it was just there that they were shooting in the winter in some European country, and they're just like, well, it's... it's But it's it's but North Carolina. could fly a helicopter there.
Speaker: but yeah, it's like, what what what are these cats eating? who who like Who's bringing them? ah like It's an island. They have to fly a helicopter there. like Someone has to bring the... like like be like you know
Speaker: bring these cats like intentionally with them every time was that the Val Kimmer budget he just like this is why they're also mad at him because he brings cats there your cat budget's out of control Harris
Speaker: was a thousand dollars at a shelter and that's why LL Cool J is there to like audit this to make sure it's worth it or not mm-hmm
Speaker: he spent too much on cats. Cats and mannequins.
Speaker: I do say, LL Cool J has like, all the but like insane crazy lines in this movie that are so great. Like, like you just he's just saying lines that are like, for the trailers.
Speaker: He's just like, oh yeah. he did mighty mo Who's next motherfucker to go? Yeah, I feel like They really try to go hard and like like, I think I said earlier, you just don't believe him because it's so like obvious.
Speaker: he's yeah he's He's so aggressively like antagonistic everybody that it's like obviously he's not the killer. So I'm gonna look elsewhere who he's gonna be. Yeah.
Speaker: so do Do you want to get when i get to like the insane finale? so Yeah. so so So everyone gets killed except for Sarah, Gabe, and Lucas. there And then they all kind of freak out and then they run they're like running in the streets. They're like having a gun to fight with each other. um but it also i mean Imagine to you, it also looks like a bad paintball fight.
Speaker: It does. Yeah.
Speaker: just Yeah, just running running behind like like like trash buses and trash cars. and like And the way it's shot is that you cannot tell where anyone is, who should get who. it just It's like...
Speaker: The whole movie kind of has like that music video editing. This is like insanely music video editing. Yeah, and it's like no reason for it to be. And this this feels when it should be... i think we were talking before started recording like how this feels like it should be like a new metal-infused movie.
Speaker: I feel like this gunfight should have been like when the new metal really starts kicking in.
Speaker: I've been fine if it was. It's very appropriate. It looks like Limp Bizkit should be like coming out and singing or something. Yeah, start blasting break stuff or something. Like a corn song.
Speaker: But, uh... Giant Lee Miller like gets blasted like I don't know how many times. yeah So it's like, oh, well, he's dead. And it's like it's oh it's like, you're like, is LL Cool J actually the villain? Like, he killed Johnny Lee Miller and kill Captain Morris.
Speaker: Yeah, there's a little misdirection, but it just comes out of nowhere because, like, there's this, like, tough guy talk that LL Cool J does. i think But I think it's like, we were talking, like, i think he's just he's just, like, if I don't know who the killer is, I'm just going kill every other person except and it' so I know it's not me and then, like, ah I'll be safe because everyone's dead.
Speaker: Okay, so... Did LL Cool J shoot him? And then that's why the tough guy talk. Or did John Lee Meter put like squibs and like make it look like he got shot?
Speaker: Well, he has he's got a bulletproof vest. So he I guess he was anticipating getting shots, which is like an insane part of his plan. If that's part of his plan, because it's like, what if LL Cool J was a really good shot and you got shot in the head?
Speaker: Yeah. Or i mean, he's standing over him. Like, Elokujo's, standing over him, like, yeah, I got you, motherfucker. And then, like, what if he shot him in the head? Mm-hmm.
Speaker: What happens then? Like, well i guess, luckily Johnny Miller, I guess, sold it with, like, the hit whenever he like, a blood packet he had his mouth or something, he's, like, selling his, like, spitting blood and like, dying.
Speaker: that's another thing. This movie's all about the agents having to act. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: least At least Johnny Miller, he's got to sell himself as, like, d trust the trusted... Like, i'm I'm trying to figure out what's going on. Just, like, um all you guys. Yeah, we're all feeling the right emotions, right? I'm from the South. You should trust me.
Speaker: But, yeah, there's it but there's a huge there's a huge fight. they Back at, like, their headquarters, there's a huge, like... ah like Elk Kuj is like still hunting down Captain Morse, but then Johnny Miller comes back, he wasn't dead, and they have a huge, like actually pretty cool fight, where it's like they're slaying each other through tables and like over counters. and Oh, it's like a stunt reel.
Speaker: It just keeps going, and it's different types of like props they can crawl around. Under tables, through tables, around like downstairs. And you're still like kind of like shocked that this guy came back from the dead?
Speaker: They kind of play like a so ah rock song, but like, not really. you notice that? Yeah.
Speaker: they couldn't qui they could yeah They couldn't quite flip the new metal switch. It was like, is this close enough? this the generic riff that we have? Yeah. Like, they really wanted to play it safe, but in an unhinged 2000s movie, this would have been like a rap rock song.
Speaker: we We can't afford it. We can't afford a lot soundtrack songs. Yeah.
Speaker: So I think I know why this movie didn't do well ah domestically. It's just like they couldn't score it correctly. So they just waited until it came out for like... I think this movie came out like, what, the summer? Well, we were saying it's it's it's it's it was the 20th anniversary this week. So it was May 2005. Wow. Yeah.
Speaker: wow yeah So... Yeah. So, yeah, it's like the summer, spring season where... don't a bunch of people already, like, riding the wave of, like, a Vans Warped Tour.
Speaker: So it's like... I'm trying to think, like, they couldn't tie in, like, hey, kids, like, enjoy that Blink-182? Would you like to go see Mindhunters? Like, we could not get them to play a song in our movie.
Speaker: Yeah, even even, like, the credits. Like, when you go to the credits, it's just, like, ah ah an orchestral piece. but that That should be when you're, like, blasting... either like an LL Cool J song that he wrote for the movie where he's just like talking about like hunting people's minds or yeah, like an insane like rap rock, new metal.
Speaker: Like also also about mind hunting people. Yeah,
Speaker: and but we don't get that. But I'm saying like that that also affects how this movie gets experienced because this does feel like almost like a three episode TV show.
Speaker: one heck of one, just because there's, like, you blood and... saw-like death traps. But yeah, the final just ends up being a... like, a stunt fight, and then... just, like, exposition dump.
Speaker: Yes! So much that, like, the movie itself has, like, its own twist exposition dump. It's like... ah like Lucas does his whole, like, oh, yeah, no, I survived. Yeah, it's fine. was wearing a bullpen vest, like, sugar. yeah And then what's-her-face does the, oh, yeah, but I also did my own trap. like I said my own trap. Yeah. yeah Yeah, so she put, like, phosphorescent, because the dust that was on the back jacket that spelled out Croatoan, she took some of that, put it on the clock,
Speaker: and turned the clock back a certain amount of time and then ah the killer put it back to normal time so she's like well whoever did that is the killer and obviously we know it's LL Cool J I'm going to grab my blacklight reveal his glowing fingers okay but then what's like what and the whole time do you think no one washed their hands?
Speaker: i I guess not. I guess, like, I guess Johnny Lee was too busy, you know, setting all these traps to, like, wash it off. Wouldn't you, yeah, wouldn't you feel like you have, like, this, like, weird gritty, like, dust on your fingers? Outer, yeah.
Speaker: For, like, a mastermind, he just didn't think about wearing gloves or wash his hands. Yeah. Yeah. See, it's like a lot of dumb gotchas. And then same thing with the like, it's just like, ah this is rushed.
Speaker: They're like, oh, we did a ah trick in order to like prove that who's actually like the villain and not just by their word. And then the fight underwater is also like pretty dumb.
Speaker: It's cool for the bullets, but then the whole, like, who can hold their breath? And then... yeah do you want to get into that? was going to say, never seen it before, never seen it since.
Speaker: The bullet thing? the the The holding your breath, like, putting point holding your guns above the water and holding your breath to and see who, playing chicken and see who will, like, have to, like, go to the surface first and get shot.
Speaker: You don't need to put your head up. You can just put your lips up there. like Like, unless the person who's also, like, waiting for you to rise, and then you rise, and then you you float it up and aim. But she point blank shoots him, because that's where, like, the gun was. And it's like and you can't aim.
Speaker: feel like there's, like, refraction, like, you're under the water, like, you get this whole, like, craziness of, like, it's not the same as, like, at the surface, like, you're not pointing at the same area where it is. You're gonna get an angle.
Speaker: You're gonna get a, like... Either reflection is to make it like her hand looks further up or further back. Like, you know, depending on the waves of a dark pool. But she knew where to stick her hand and did that.
Speaker: I understand that happened early in the movie. Or there's some sort of thing where, like, her quirk is that she can shoot underwater. Perfect. Well, it's... I guess it's supposed to pay off that she's, like, horrified of the water because of what happened to her sister.
Speaker: But then... it's just like it's resolved because he's like well i'm I'm underwater now I'm fine I'm gonna kill this guy yeah not only am I cured of my like water phobia aquaphobia I'm also like an amazing shot underwater because she went she went the when the bomb went off she like ended up in the water and she was like catatonic and had to get dragged out by Jalene Miller i mean a bomb did go off in her yeah around her so I get why you're like holy shit
Speaker: I can be really tough, but then a bomb sends me into the water. I'm going rethink a few things. I think that was but i think that's yeah supposed to be like ah the bomb, but also like her like deadly deadly deadly fear of water.
Speaker: but that yeah But then she's like instantly like not not even like a hesitation like, oh shit, I'm underwater. She's like, I'm going to All right, underwater gunfight. Here we go.
Speaker: That's what I'm saying. like She is so ready. Well, she has like a moment of like she breathed and she's like, alright, time to do this. Time to kind to step up for this fight. She has some sort of crazy like flip move where she... like Because Jenny Lee was shoving her head into the water to drown her and then she's able like flip flip him over herself and like into the water.
Speaker: It was like a jiu-jitsu move or something.
Speaker: Also, do you you think the underwater gunfight was like ah like a tribute to Val Kilmer for the underwater bar fight from Top Secret? It feels like a dumb tribute, right?
Speaker: I was waiting for them to pick it up like bottle there's like a bottle under the water and they'd pick it up and smash it over someone's head.
Speaker: No, no, we can't be that lucky that someone was clever to do that.
Speaker: But yeah, it's it's it's also crazy that, so like, Sarah's able to shoot him, usually like using the the crazy hold your gun above the water tactic, and shoots him in the neck, but then it still goes on. Like, there's so like he' still, like he's like, he still comes back after that, and they still have to, like, fight him and, like, shoot, like, Elokujie has to come back and help.
Speaker: Yeah, because he had shot, and you think that's, like, some critical shot, but he shrugs that off. a bullet to the neck and he's just like I'm still here I'm still gonna get you
Speaker: then yeah there's a shoot him again in the head but shoots him like in the head but like no wound it's just blood in his hair scalp so you can't see the bullet hole but it just starts bleeding It's the perfect like hiding spot in his small hair. It's not like he has a giant bush hair, so he can't tell where the bullet hole is.
Speaker: No, yeah. It just like trickles down. He's able to have time to like stare and be like, oops. but paint like My perfect plan is ruins. My dumb plan.
Speaker: How could this happen to me?
Speaker: ah was supposed to be the ultimate mind hunter.
Speaker: Damn you, Mindhunters.
Speaker: She'd be like, well i got Sarah, I guess you're the true Mindhunter, and he dies.
Speaker: That's one hunt I i lost or something. The ultimate prey was woman.
Speaker: And then, yeah, then Ella Cool J and Catherine Morris just, like, head to the beach and fly off in a helicopter. Yeah, the movie ends right when you just have, like, questions about everything.
Speaker: I know it's, like, spoiler-ish, but, like, you do. Even us. yeah That's why we started, like, this review for it. We're just like, why did this happen? What? Like, even as i we talk about it, it's like another viewing mentally in our head, going over the scenes, talking about the plan.
Speaker: I still don't piece it together. Why? It's like, why would he try... Why would... It's not like he had... Lucas Harper had any vendetta against anyone. It was just like, I want to because I could.
Speaker: And then it's like... I'll prove I'm the best. Or like, I'm one of the best killers of all time. Yeah, and then it's like, oh, but don't you want your like legend to go on or something? Because you can't be like, she did it. Like...
Speaker: She's the puppet master. Yeah. if he If he wanted infamy, why is he like setting up... so like Sarah would be the infamous one. She'd be like, oh man, the Mindhunter killer. like She went crazy killed everybody.
Speaker: She almost got away with it, but it was Lucas. Lucas, not the Mindhunter. And it's like, no, I was the Mindhunter. It's like, no, no.
Speaker: Yeah, man, that's what I'm saying. like It's just weird. But whatever.
Speaker: i mean, this is like, we're not the only ones. The movie did terrible in theaters. No. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, it's it's it's a lost charm of like 2000s attempt at serial killer movies.
Speaker: And it's also after the years after like seven, you know, so it's hard. to It's hard to be the next seven. Mm hmm.
Speaker: why I don't know if you mentioned it like during the podcast, but we definitely mentioned before the podcast. but like um I got very big like CSI vibes from this.
Speaker: like Because that they had been on it for like five years at this point. And there's an entire scene that's just like lifted straight from CSI where they're like analyzing all the evidence.
Speaker: well a seat like While a song from the CSI soundtrack plays...
Speaker: So I feel like that was definitely an influence on this too. It was like ah CSI. Yeah, I mean... like what it's like I swore it was trying to be Saw, but it's funny how like they both had the same outlook of a serial killer that tries to kill people with traps, and they went with this decision instead of the Saw method.
Speaker: Yeah, it's it's kind of like it's like... What if one of the CSIs was a serial killer and they killed all the other CSIs? Yeah.
Speaker: It would have been cool if they did forensics more forensic science stuff.
Speaker: cause Yeah, because Val Kilmer shows them, like, here's all your equipment. You got blood training stuff. You got, like, access to the entire FBI database, sort of. It's on a firewall, but you can look up stuff. You got, ah you know, DNA analyzers.
Speaker: Very cool, right?
Speaker: Yeah, the only and they only do it they only use it for that like that one scene.
Speaker: We're like, we're to, all right, let's let's find this guy. We're going to analyze all the evidence. Montage.
Speaker: And then it just comes up with like the lame, like, Sarah did it. ah Sarah is the unsub.
Speaker: Again, i feel like if they did another attempt at this movie, they know what not to do. But I haven't seen a lot of movies like this again, where the killer is hiding among them and they're doing a good job of like being a serial killer, but also picking them off.
Speaker: I think we're spoiled by Saw movies where ah usually the trap and the the thing has to do as a theme because there's no theme. It just kind of loses like they're just random like things.
Speaker: I mean, there could be a theme like, hey, this happens because they're most likely going to do this and this, but it doesn't come off well. The puppet master doesn't really do the whole like, I killed you with my trap that like I themed for this person. This is like you killed yourself based on your quirk.
Speaker: Well, is Lucas, like, is he, like, taking on the mantle of the Puppet Master? or is it We have no idea. Or is that just, like, Val Kilmer's, like, this is a cool idea for a killer. Like, the Puppet Master.
Speaker: hangs people from wires. But then Lucas does that to Val Kilmer, so then he like is like he's, like, he's, like... Well, okay, he did it because Val Kilmer did the Puppet Master. So because of that, he killed him because of a Puppet Master gag.
Speaker: i feel like I feel like Lucas didn't have some sort of like idea of, like, I'm this. for like This is my killer name. it's like But he's like, oh, the Puppet Master. That's cool name. All right, going do that. That's my whole it's like persona now.
Speaker: i think it was just that. I think it was literally... um he Well, oh no, the Puppet Master did the Puppet Mastering thing, but he only does it to... ah ah Val Kilmer. So yeah, it's not like he does it to anyone else. Like I said, it's just the like, okay, I'm going to go deep because Lucas is empty inside.
Speaker: He just adapts his whole thing to match the person he's trying to kill. so There's no theme. But see, you i mean like the the movie doesn't really convey that. I have to think about it like six times to like figure out, is that the theme?
Speaker: but Well, his his main thing is the clocks. Like, it's the broken clocks. and then Oh shit, you're right! He had a clock thing! He's like the clock king or something. like But like what does the clock have to do with anything?
Speaker: The timekeeper. But like it didn't play into his thing. It was he he broke the watches and he was like it was set to a time and then that time was when the next person was going to get killed.
Speaker: So like oh the watch is set at six o'clock at six o'clock someone's going to killed. Or there's two watches now people are going to get killed.
Speaker: They find Val Kilmer has like five watches on. affirmity It's like three watches. because Which again, like Lucas had to figure out that it was going to be him and Sarah and Gabe at the last three. And they would find Val Kilmer and he would have three watches on And then they'd be like, oh, so like it's like we're the last three.
Speaker: yeah get dumb planning. yeah he He had to be like 100 steps ahead of every everyone. And it had everything work out exactly perfectly for him as planned to work. Well, I get it, because he was supposed to be master of time, of like, ooh, I planned this perfectly for your your deaths.
Speaker: But it ended up just being like... It just seemed random more than intentional. Because even the victims, they didn't know what was going on.
Speaker: And yeah, just i get vague just vaguely tied to their their weakness, their... there their greatest weakness which us which is us I love um Lucas gives like a you know how but that that um like job interview thing where it's like what's your greatest weakness like oh I care too much like his his his answer is just like is like that it like that where it's just like I'm scared it's like I say I'm fearless but I'm not
Speaker: I'm actually drunk a lot. like yeah just his His thing is that like he's reckless because he's just hammered on the job.
Speaker: and yeah he also so He also tells that whole story to Sarah where he's trying to charm her. He's oh yeah, I stole cars. but I stole cars slept with a bunch of women and drank beer. i think he did do some of that.
Speaker: and then That's why he's like, I want be killer. he was He was trying to get like a bunch of thrills, then the biggest thrill was killing people. i think that's it. I think that was the point.
Speaker: Somehow, FBI school was just easy to get into for him. They gotta raise their standards.
Speaker: Yeah, like, they have to do psychological evaluations. i'm like i'm just It's surprising that someone with that kind of like inclination would be like,
Speaker: yeah Oh yeah, it's weird with your parents. Do you really have any remorse for it? right It's like, oh yes, I'm fine. It was tragic died. didn't have anything do with it, but... Don't ask me what happened.
Speaker: I was just a little kid. I'm from Texas.
Speaker: Yeah, they died from like they died from s swallowing on like you know like a pocket even some dumb watch. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, like, if they made more hints about watches and stuff towards him, it'd be fine. like, he was obsessed with time in the beginning. Yeah, he had, like, a ah special watch, like a Rolex or something, that he was like, this is the only thing care about. It's watch.
Speaker: It's my daddy's watch.
Speaker: Yeah, see, we're trying to make the movie better. um Yeah. Yeah, I mean, is this movie worth watching at least once? i think I think it's entertaining enough. like There's some like really funny, dumb things in it.
Speaker: like yeah everything yeah like Pretty much anything LL Cool J J and J. Lee Miller fight. like some of the Some of the kills. like I feel like there's enough here if you just want to watch like a dumb two thousand s like thriller.
Speaker: It's not deep. It's just like you you see what it is. The title is way more ah awesome sounding than the movie's gonna be. Yeah. If you ever watch like an actual like very well made thing called Mindhunter, watch the Netflix like David Fincher show.
Speaker: honestly Yeah. Better. Better Mindhunter. Yeah. if you if you If you're looking to watch one Mindhunter thing, watch the Netflix show.
Speaker: But yeah, if you but if you want to watch something like kind of dumb but fun, watch Mindhunters.
Speaker: And yeah, so I think we'll do it this week for podcast. Come back next week because our mission, if we choose to accept it, is to watch Mission Impossible 2 because the final reckoning is in theaters.
Speaker: it's ah It's also the 25th anniversary of Mission Impossible 2, I believe. So we're going to watch that one to tie into Final Reckoning. I'm sure there's going be some sort of reference to all all the Mission Impossible movies in that movie, because it seems like the trailers are implying that. It's like everything that's everything that's ever happened is leading up to this movie.
Speaker: like i think I think one of the trailers was just this was just like literally just scenes from other Mission Impossible movies.
Speaker: So yeah, we'll jump back, we'll talk about ah you know all the John Woo touches and Was that the one with like, that was, think it was one with like Chimera, like the virus, like the MacGuffin with that one was Chimera.
Speaker: Yeah. So yeah, come back for all that next week and head over to all of our usual stuff there. We got news, reviews, trailers, tons of trailers. I don't know if, if it's just because there's big movies coming out or summer or what, but yeah, tons, tons of trailers were dropping recently.
Speaker: And our big PAX article shoot up pretty soon. Just keep an eye on the site for that. We're going to be able to check out all these everything we saw at PAX last week. And yeah, so for us, I am Zach and we will see you next time.
Speaker: For more Forever Everything Action, head to www.everythingaction.com. You can also find us on Facebook at facebook.com slash everything.action and follow us on X at EVAction.
Speaker: We're also on Instagram and threads at everything.action. Find episodes of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your at podcast app of choice, and be sure rate and subscribe.
