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Episode 123: Kobashi vs Misawa with John Veron
60 Plays5 years ago
This week Garrett's buddy John stops by to drop some knowledge about All Japan!
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Mispronunciations
00:00:36
Speaker
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Predetermined, a pro wrestling hangout. I'm your host, Garrett Callender. And what are we doing? Derek, is it here? I feel lost. I feel broken. I'm joined by my good buddy, John Veron. Did I say your name right? Not even remotely, no. Okay, so here's the thing. You said your name out loud to me moments ago, and I thought, okay, keep it in here, because I never say your last name right.
00:01:06
Speaker
And I, it's so weird, like when I go home to Louisiana, no problems, everybody gets it. The only thing is I get kind of a Frenchy version of it sometimes, because it's, I'll tell you, it's Varon, as in, holy shit, there's a bear on the hood of the car, just with a V instead, or turn the air on, it's hot in here. Like,
00:01:24
Speaker
There's any number of mnemonics I can give you. But when I go home, sometimes there's like a Frenchie version of it where it's like, it's Varon. And I like that. But out here, everybody's like Varon, Varon, whatever. Like when I briefly flirted with standup comedy to my peril, I just went by John Vernon because I just didn't want to fuck with that. Like trying to explain an open mic host what your last name is, you know,
00:01:50
Speaker
You know that that road only has calamity at the end of it. And John Vernon sounds like a great guy. Yeah, no, John Vernon sounds like he's going to sell you insurance. Like John Vernon lives in Indiana. He's got a wife named Joyce. Joyce has varicose veins.
00:02:07
Speaker
She does you know what she's getting by she's in a mall walking club I was so I'll be honest. I thought for probably I have a lot of anxiety about Really about really small things and also of course big things and medium-sized things Really all the things yeah, I can I can worry about goddamn near anything
00:02:31
Speaker
but I spent about two hours wondering how to pronounce your last name and how I was going to introduce you. You have my phone number. You could have texted me at any time. I would have been happy to help.
00:02:43
Speaker
When you've known someone nearly a decade, you have to know their name. You can't just ask. No, no one knows my last name. It's totally fine. I would have
Stories and Anecdotes
00:02:54
Speaker
helped you. And if you have any questions about how to pronounce my wife's name or my dog's name or the city I live in's name, that's Los Angeles, if you're curious.
00:03:07
Speaker
Nibbler. There you go. Yeah, that is the dog. He also accepts Nibs, Commodore Nibblesmith, or occasionally General Wackingsworth, because he primarily communicates via whacking things with his paws. That's how you know his water bowl is empty, because he whacks it. And then you hear the whacking, and you're like, oh, I got to get the dog some water. He doesn't bark to communicate. He just kind of whacks stuff.
00:03:36
Speaker
But yeah, I'm happy to be here. You know, long time, first time. Really big fan of the podcast. And I'm excited to talk about wrestling or wrestling adjacent topics as they come up. Also, I didn't tell you before, but that Carly Rae hoodie you're rocking is my whole heart. Yeah. Thank you. No, I also have been feeling that emotion. You know, it's not Christmas till somebody cries.
00:04:05
Speaker
And see, I have the Carly Rae Jepsen hoodie, the murder death kill hat. It all just, this is my personality in clothing. Absolutely. You've seen that clip of the little girl at the Nick Gage match, right?
00:04:20
Speaker
Like yes and out on him and then being like give me some give me some because and he gives her a little shove Yeah, yeah, cuz Nick Gage is the coolest Yeah, he's uh, he makes me happy there was a little clip of him going viral a couple of days ago about him being in Japan with necro butcher and finding himself at a karaoke bar with Kenny Omega and
Shift in Podcast Focus
00:04:44
Speaker
He was like, we were at this fucking karaoke bar in Tokyo, and this guy, I think his name's Kenny Omega, was hanging out, and this is from a few years ago, I guess, and he's like, and I turned to Necro, and he's like, this isn't how, and I said, like, this isn't how I want to party. I don't want to be at a fucking karaoke bar with Kenny Omega. Let's get out of here.
00:05:02
Speaker
And then someone found a picture of that night and sure enough, there's fucking Nick Gage hanging out in a hoodie while Kenny Omega belts, whatever shit he's belting, which like, I get that they're both pro wrestlers, but that's one of the most win-worlds collide things I've ever heard of. I'll be honest, when you brought up Nick Gage, I was worried that this was gonna turn into an intervention because the podcast over the years really took a turn.
00:05:32
Speaker
It started out as everybody kind of recommending matches and us kind of going on this pro wrestling journey. But then I just hit a hard left into death matches, parked my car, got out, set up camp, and really just lived in death match land for at least all of quarantine.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's real bad. And you should stop. I mean, death matches are fine. They're not really my thing. I think death matches for me often lack psychology. And they don't really seem to tell much of a story.
00:06:07
Speaker
The good ones do, and I'm probably being over-generalizing, and someone's gonna light up your comments and say that John Veron guy is a real piece of shit because they're not gonna respect me enough to pronounce my last name right. But I do think that they just don't feel, they don't feel like anything but like, okay, time to do the next crazy thing.
00:06:29
Speaker
I think a really good example of a deathmatch style thing and this isn't really deathmatchy. It was just sort of more hardcore was Moxley Kingston I quit at full gear Did you watch that I did yeah like that that felt um
00:06:47
Speaker
hardcore for sure but also like I understood the story they were trying to tell the whole time and I saw like the regret on Moxley's face that he was having to do this to his friend because his friend had you know
00:07:00
Speaker
become a huge piece of shit. See, and when I watch Carlos Cologne fight Mance Warner, just pull out a knife and just start carving his head up four different sides of the ring, I got the Friday the 13th part four out of that, where you're trying...
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm looking for Friday the 13th, Part 6, which is an actual movie. But yeah, it's certainly a thing you can watch. I've been there for some real good death matches. I've been on this podcast discussing. I was at the GCW David Arquette Almost Dies match and then sent you a recap from outside in my car.
00:07:39
Speaker
We cannot thank you enough for that. Yeah. You could hear the PTSD on my face. I almost watched Dewey from Scream die tonight. What the hell is going on? What
The David Arquette Match
00:07:56
Speaker
was that room like when everybody left?
00:07:59
Speaker
Like if everyone was filing out, was everybody concerned for David Arquette? Were they confused? Oh, we were, we were quite concerned. Um, it was weird. Like it was one of those things where in the moment you don't really know what you just saw. Um, because like my memory of it is.
00:08:18
Speaker
The finish was, you know, you got Gage behind Arquette, I think. And he's grinding the light tube into Arquette's forehead. And then I guess Arquette goes for a snap mare. And then the light tube slips and cuts his neck. And at that point, everything just kind of slowed down.
00:08:41
Speaker
And if you guys go back and watch it you can see me at ringside I'm sitting by the sound booth looking real concerned in a green lantern shirt and Like everything just kind of slowed down and like Our cat my memory is that our cat like walked over and like got out of the ring Basically was like fuck this and then something convinced him to get back in and finish it and then I think they just did a snap mirror and went home and then like
00:09:10
Speaker
Arquette, I don't know how much of this was on the broadcast but Arquette like walked out and then came back there was like this there was this door in the very back of the room like you had the ring and then there was this staircase going up to like I guess backstage because the room we were in was a music venue and Arquette disappeared back there and then Gage started cutting a promo
00:09:32
Speaker
because he had to fucking do something. And then our cat showed back up and like started shouting at him. And I couldn't hear what he was shouting, but he was still holding his neck, basically saying, I assume, why did you try to murder me? Because I don't think David understood what was going on. But yeah, then the end, it ended like a wrestling show. Like everybody was out there selling merch. And I think I remember going up to Brody King and being like, hey, is our cat okay? And he was like, I don't know. You want to buy a shirt?
00:10:05
Speaker
Yeah. And then I went and got in my car on York in Highland Park and got out my phone and recorded a recap for you. You guys can go listen to it. It's in the podcast archives somewhere. And yeah, I mean, you can hear me just not being sure of what I saw. And then later I read that, like, Arquette thought he was going to die. And my favorite part of the match, though,
00:10:28
Speaker
is before the light tubes come out, Arquette was kind of selling on my side of the ring. And the thing about the ring, for those of you who haven't seen it, is the ringside seats were all elevated. So I was level with the ring apron. I could have stood up from my chair, taken a step forward, and I would have been standing on the ring apron. So the best seats for a wrestling show I've ever had by a lot.
00:10:54
Speaker
And so our cat's selling like right in front of me. And then people start bringing out the light tubes. And I said to him, David, they're bringing out light tubes. And he said, what does that mean? And I said, I think it means they're gonna try to hit you with light tubes. And then he said, what should I do?
00:11:18
Speaker
And I felt like this should have been self-evident, but I said to him, I think you should try not to get hit with light tubes.
00:11:28
Speaker
And to the guy's credit, he had this like, oh god I'm in way over my head face going. That was exactly what he should have had at that moment. He was definitely telling the story of the guy who bit off way the fuck more than he could chew. His acting was excellent. It was great. It looked like all that really hurt. Yeah, no, it didn't look fun from where I was sitting either.
00:11:53
Speaker
But yeah, that's my favorite thing about going to live wrestling shows is those little moments of interaction.
Indie Wrestling Experiences
00:11:58
Speaker
You know, I've told you this before, but one of my favorite books is this book about post-punk called Rip It Up and Start Again. And it's all about just like all the different post-punk scenes. There's a whole chapter about like,
00:12:09
Speaker
Devo hanging out in Ohio with pair ubu and shit But one of the the chapters I think it's about like Vincent Gallo's old band but the thing that stuck with me was they they they said that they always tried to turn a show into a situation and
00:12:28
Speaker
Um because a show wait vint vincent gallo the director. Yeah. Okay good Yeah, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Yeah. Yeah, the the yeah the We all know the brown bunny guy. Okay. Yes Yeah, um
00:12:46
Speaker
But yeah, like, because he said, you know, a show is something you passively consume, you just take it in, and then you, it's a product. A situation is something you have to react to. And you have to make decisions about a situation.
00:13:02
Speaker
That's what I love about live pro wrestling in the indie world, because shows become situations really fast. I remember being in the Legion Hall for my first Gorilla Warfare match at PWG. And I think you were there, and we were with our buddy Eric Barnes. And the announcer got in the rain. He said, the following match is a Gorilla Warfare match. And everybody around us stood up and folded up their chairs.
00:13:29
Speaker
And so we looked around and we did the same. And I remember asking Barnes, like, so is there like a protocol for this? Like, what do we do? And he just said, get the fuck out of the way. And I was like, cool. And yeah, is that the one that was the guerrilla warfare match that we saw Super Dragons last match?
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, the one where he limped to the back because he fucked up his leg. And then we never saw him again. Yeah, no, he just, he went back to his home planet backstage at the Legion Hall. My favorite memory from that match is Speedball Mike Bailey, like powdering to the outside and just like laying in a heap at my feet, like literally at my feet. And I'm shouting like, cause you know, I'm K-Fabe brother.
00:14:16
Speaker
I'm shouting like you gotta get up speedball. You gotta get up. You gotta get up and I reach out my hand to help him he grabs my hand and We start I start trying to pull him up and he like is selling like he's trying to get up and then he lets go and falls back down and
00:14:32
Speaker
And it was the coolest thing fucking ever. Poor little Speedball. He didn't have the fighting spirit in that moment. He had just gotten his shit rocked real, real bad. Rest in peace, Speedball, by the way. He's not dead. He's just not wrestling in the United States for the last five years or whatever. Oh no, he got engaged to Veda Scott. They're doing great.
00:14:54
Speaker
But why can't I see him wrestle? When is his time out over? He's been all over like Germany and WXW and I think he did some Dragon Gate at one point. But yeah, like if you go online, there's plenty of dirty little feet for your amusement. But he can't come to me anymore. I have to travel to him.
00:15:13
Speaker
I mean, thanks to the magic of the internet, you can travel like 12 feet and you're there.
AEW vs WWE Storytelling
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah, but like, no, he's, I guess he's like got a year or two more. But yeah, he's still stuck up in Canada, which like, dude, it's COVID. Like, you know, you're not missing too, too much.
00:15:31
Speaker
But yeah, he just got engaged to Veta Scott who works over at AEW doing stuff over there. I think she does commentary on Dark every now and then, and then she did commentary on the women's tag team tournament that they had, which man, I wish they had done more with that women's tag team tournament. That was a cool idea that kind of fizzled out like a little bit of a wet fart.
00:15:55
Speaker
That is always bringing up the women's division with AEW is always going to be their weakest spot. It's such a bummer. Yeah. Well, I think some of it's their fault and some of it isn't. COVID didn't help because their women's division was clearly going to be built.
00:16:16
Speaker
50-50 around Joshi, which, like, I'm fucking here for. Like, that sounds awesome. Like, Rio rules. You know, Emmy Sakura is the coolest. Like, I've been really, really getting into that stuff. And then they lost all those parts of their roster because they couldn't come over anymore. And then they started getting all those injuries. Like, Chris Statlander went out, Shanna went out, and now she's back. And they basically, like, lost everybody they had been building except Britt Baker.
00:16:46
Speaker
And Britt Baker, I think, has improved a ton. I'm going to be honest, she didn't really impress me at the very beginning of AEW, but I think she's gotten a lot better. And I quite enjoy her matches now. I think she just was pretty green for the position they put her in and has grown into it. And now they're figuring it out. Hikaru Shida's got an interesting program going with Abaddon, where Shida's getting to be a little bit more of a character than she has before.
00:17:15
Speaker
Like she does good in the ring. They just haven't really given her much of anything to do except like oh, hey Nyla Rose I guess I'll fight you like that's kind of been the food I saw something about how much screen time she's received over the last Year, and it was in comparison to Cody's entrances
00:17:35
Speaker
Hikaru Shida's like total. Oh yeah. Her total ring time is far lower than what Cody's total entrance time is. That's extremely bad. Like there's no amount of injuries that can excuse that. Like, I mean, you hear that they're going to, you know, bring on another show and everything. And I would love to see a show that's like
00:17:58
Speaker
75-25 women for their other show like give that division room to shine and thanks to certain recent developments they have access to Maybe the best women's division in wrestling now in the form of impact
00:18:13
Speaker
That is true, but did you, okay, I know you don't really follow any WWE anymore, but are you at all familiar with what's happening at war games? I know that it's Team Shotzi Blackheart versus Team People Who Aren't Shotzi Blackheart, and there's also like one mystery, Team Candice. Wait, really? It's Team Shotzi versus Team Candice, and Candice LeRae's team is Candice, Dakota Kai,
00:18:40
Speaker
Raquel Gonzalez, which I'm not familiar with, and Tony Storm. That's pretty dope. Yeah, I mean, I am an avowed, non-WWE person. I think main roster WWE is, the word's bad, it's bad television. It's poorly written. The roster's good, like I wanna be super clear just for everybody who's not familiar with Veron's House of Opinions.
00:19:10
Speaker
I think the roster is really good. I think they're unbelievably talented wrestlers, but I think the booking is awful. I think main roster WWE in particular doesn't care about its past in a way that really bothers me. For years, people just get kind of thrown into programs because they're happening. And by contrast over in AEW, I think one of the smart things about AEW is they will set up these character conflicts and just let them simmer.
00:19:36
Speaker
Like you've got, at any moment they could pull the trigger on another Kingston Moxley program, a, you know, program between like the Young Bucks and best friends. They could do- Hangman Omega. Yeah, Hangman Omega. They could go back to Cody Darby. They, you know, on and on and on. You've got fucking, they're building a story about Brandon Cutler getting wins. Like they could go back to Cutler and Avalon.
00:20:03
Speaker
if they wanted to. They have all these opportunities and the cool thing about all those stories is they don't have to do them all now. They just have them simmering. One of the things that's most emblematic of the difference between AEW and WWE in terms of how they approach booking was two weeks ago
00:20:24
Speaker
You know how Moxley got attacked right before the contract signing for the Omega match? Yeah. And the week after, he's been on the warpath, super pissed off. And Kingston was giving an interview about him and the Lucha Bros and the death triangle program that's been going on, which is a totally separate storyline that Kingston moved on into. And then at the end, Moxley just walked up and fucking squared up against him. And then Kingston said,
00:20:53
Speaker
You know it wasn't me. I have my own shit to deal with. And then he walked away and like it's very simple. Like that's that it shouldn't be hard to just acknowledge that these people are all in the same building.
00:21:07
Speaker
You know? And like, oh yeah, these people didn't stop feeling away about each other because they had the match. Like, of course Moxley would think that the guy who just tormented him for months attacked him. And of course Eddie Kingston would say, no, no, I'm doing my thing. And like, that's very, very small, but like, it makes the whole world feel lived in in a way that WWE doesn't feel lived in as a world. All that said,
00:21:34
Speaker
WWE has the best women's roster, probably, in the world. In terms of the talent, and honestly, I hate to say it, but in terms of the booking, at least on NXT, it's the best.
NXT WarGames and Candice LeRae
00:21:49
Speaker
I wish that weren't true, because all of those women are eventually going to get fed into the meat grinder that is the WWE main roster. Though that is kind of one of the good things about NXT being on USA now, is people just kind of hang out on NXT. And one of the reasons I stopped watching NXT was because I felt like it kind of took place in the Logan's Run universe, where eventually the gym on their hand was going to start glowing, and they were going to have to go get processed into food for Brock Lesnar.
00:22:17
Speaker
You know, but now you can just like stay there and be safe unless you're Keith Lee, which like, sorry, Keith. That makes me real sad. He was destined for the main roster. No, he is Vince's favorite kind of wrestler, which is big guy, what moves like a small guy.
00:22:39
Speaker
and Vince loves those. But anyway, all of that is to say, who do you think the mystery person on Team Shotzi's gonna be? I thought we had everybody listed already. The last thing I saw was that there was one mystery person. Let me see, NXT. I have pulled up the Shotzi's team as Shotzi, Ember Moon, Rhea Ripley and Io Shirai.
00:23:06
Speaker
I'm definitely tuning into that. I mean, there was a time in my life when Candice LeRae was my favorite wrestler in the world. And I really miss those days, Jon. I miss those days dearly. Oh, I miss them so much, especially because the memory of those days have been tainted by a certain...
00:23:23
Speaker
diddly pervert, who honestly, we probably all should have seen that coming. But yeah, no, Candace has been uniformly so, so nice. And like, I would like to say publicly that Candace LeRae helped me become a better husband. And I'll tell you the story, I'll tell you why.
00:23:41
Speaker
I remember, I think it was our first PWG show you and I went to. And the world's cutest tag team was there. And this was the mystery vortex where Gargano fought Champa to begin the whole thing, where our brains exploded. And you and I were sitting behind Eric Barnes and Jordan Dobbs Rosa. And I think Barnes, who looks like a Viking said to us, welcome to Wrestling Valhalla.
00:24:04
Speaker
And he was right. First match of the night. First match of the night. First indie wrestling match I ever saw was Johnny Gargano and Tommaso Ciampa just kicking the front of each other's faces into the back of each other's faces. It was absurd. That's still one of my all time favorite matches that I've witnessed live. It was amazing. It was amazing.
00:24:27
Speaker
During intermission, you know, they were all selling merch and I remember walking up to Candace and Joey and Saying to Candace like oh man, you were so cool It was really really awesome and Candace is gregarious as hell and super down to chat and then I remember like by contrast Johnny Gargano is sitting extra with his like DVDs and his t-shirts He's kind of quiet and like I definitely got the vibe that he was sort of a more introverted dude not a bad guy just like kind of a little bit more shy and I was you know
00:24:57
Speaker
gushing to Candice about how cool she is. And then she turned and said, you know, Johnny, you know, has a bunch of merch and everything. And he was super awesome. And like, I remember her shining, taking the spotlight I had placed on her and shining it on her partner.
00:25:13
Speaker
and I took that as a big lesson and I thought that was really cool of her and I was like yeah like when you are the more chatty um because you guys on this podcast have probably noticed I like to talk um but like when you're the more chatty person in a relationship you need to use that to shine a light on your partner sometimes too um and I thought that was cool of her and I took that lesson and I am a better husband because of Candice LeRae
00:25:41
Speaker
So are you gonna tune in to watch Team Candace beat Team Shotzi on war games? No, I'm not gonna do that. Absolutely. Not even illegally? No, no, I'm not gonna, especially not illegally. No, I mean, you know, I hope they have a good match. I only got so much time and there's a lot of wrestling, dude. Like I'm lucky if I watch a dynamite. I'm still behind on G1 matches, dog.
00:26:08
Speaker
Hey, I can't even watch New Japan anymore. They locked me out of my account.
Personal Habits and Comparisons
00:26:15
Speaker
And do you know how hard it is to go back and forth with the customer service in Japan? Why did they lock you out of your account? Did you like pirate New Japan or something? I have not shared my account. I have done nothing wrong. And I feel like they don't want me to see Alex Zane versus Blake Christian tonight. Do you like just make a new email address or something, dude?
00:26:41
Speaker
No, no, no, no, no, I have my login. It should work. No, that's just don't don't be an asshole. You just make a new email. It's fine. You don't have another email address. Just use another one. Everybody, you don't have an email address that's just for customer service stuff. Like I have a Yahoo email address. It's all I use it for. It's like a cesspool of spam in there. It's just constant. I get I get like 60 emails a day in there. It's all like customer service offers.
00:27:06
Speaker
Every time I unsubscribe, two more emails spring up in its place, like some sort of hydra of trying to sell me fucking pans. See, that's my regular email. I think right now, my regular email would probably stress you out. A lot of things about you stress me out. 53,190 unread emails. I want you to know that I just restrained myself from hanging up on you.
00:27:35
Speaker
um that's how i feel about that uh what you're doing to your phone is a hate crime um you should feel bad about this like what you need to do is i'm giving you permission clean slate buddy you need to go into your email account and you just need to click a little button that says mark all red and that's your clean slate like give yourself permission
00:28:02
Speaker
to start over, it's a new Garrett and a new relationship with his email. Can I do the same through text? Um, I think so. Yeah, you can do it on your phone. Just mark them all as red. I currently have 67 missed text messages. I'm the worst texter. I just, I hate using it. And I feel like what this podcast could become is I could be like a Mark Marin and just bring all my friends on and apologize to them.
00:28:30
Speaker
No, I know, you're really, really bad at texting. I go weeks at a time and I'm like, maybe he died. And then I see a new episode of the podcast drop and I'm like, okay, he's alive, cool. This is how mostly I know that you're extant is the podcast continues to come out, which is why I need you to keep doing it in this brave post-Derek world.
00:28:55
Speaker
I know, I know, if I don't keep doing this, everybody's going to assume I'm dead and all I can do to show people that I'm alive is occasionally Instagram story, a picture of my cat, something like that. I do like those, those are fun. Yeah, your cat's real cute. Your cat was pawing at the doorknob earlier behind you and it was really, really delightful.
00:29:15
Speaker
Yeah, I'm a little tired because I had to watch the new season of Big Mouth last night and then I stayed up until 3 in the morning watching Bruce Springsteen videos from the 70s because I am also in a sense a dad, but in a very different sense from Derek.
00:29:31
Speaker
What are you a father to? No, I just have the attitude of a dad in that I now stay up all night watching Bruce Springsteen videos from the 70s. And I'm like, man, he's right. Glory days will pass you by. See, I thought Nibbler was keeping you up and is just like, no, we're not going to bed until we've watched two hours of Springsteen. He really does like dancing in the dark quite a bit. But yeah, he's like my little Courtney Cox is what he is.
00:30:01
Speaker
Well, I, I go to bed. I'm an old man now. I go to bed at like 8 30 and wake up at like six. That's just the quarantine life is fucked up. Yeah, man. You went the other way. Like everybody else, you know, I know became night owls, but you, uh, you like, do you just like like watching the sun come up when it's like all quiet and peaceful? Is that it?
00:30:22
Speaker
I wish that were it. I wish that were it. I have nothing. I have nothing, John. I wake up at six in the morning and I have nothing. And except for this morning, you gave me some homework.
00:30:35
Speaker
and I got to tune into some all Japan like it was Saturday morning cartoons. Oh man, and it is not cartoonish at all. It is perhaps the least cartoonish wrestling you could have watched on a Saturday morning. I'm sorry if I had known when you were gonna watch it, I would have given you Hulk Hogan's Rockin' Wrestling connection or something. Yeah, it was really, I thought what you sent me was good, but it was missing doink.
00:31:02
Speaker
Well, I could have sent you an Akira Tawe match. That's a very, very niche joke. So yeah, I sent you some all Japan four pillars stuff.
Introduction to All Japan Pro Wrestling
00:31:19
Speaker
Mainly, one of the things that I've discovered over quarantine is a wrestler by the name of Kenta Kobashi.
00:31:25
Speaker
who I would argue is the main character of pro wrestling. Like if pro wrestling is a comic book and it's in a comic book universe, like the DC Comics universe, you could make a solid argument that Superman is the main character of the DC Comics universe. Like things kind of revolve around him. Like Batman will go have a story, Green Lantern will go have a story, but like it kind of comes back to like Superman is the prime mover.
00:31:50
Speaker
I think that's Kenta Kobashi. A lot of people would pick a different guy from all Japan. Are you familiar with the four pillars of heaven? No, not until you introduce me to this series. Wow. So you didn't know anything about the four pillars or nineties all Japan or anything like that.
00:32:09
Speaker
No, well, other than I have, at the beginning of the podcast, somebody had us watch Masawa versus Kawata. Okay, okay. Like several of their matches. So I got to watch a lot of Masawa bombs and the Kawata little kicks to the face. Oh, he likes kicking people in the face. Yeah, that's his move. Those are cute. They are cute little kicks. They don't look fun. I would not like to be kicked by the man they call Dangerous K. So,
00:32:38
Speaker
I guess for context and stop me if you already know this stuff maybe for your listeners in the 80s
00:32:48
Speaker
a gigantic stop-motion skeleton with skin draped over him named Giant Baba was booking a promotion called All Japan Pro Wrestling. And he was a brilliant booker. He was a wrestler beforehand. And he eventually moved out of in-ring work and was booking All Japan around his ace, a guy named Jumbo Saruta, who you've probably heard of.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah, he was awesome and he Innovated a style of wrestling known as Kings Road style which like if you like main event New Japan Pro Wrestling you
00:33:32
Speaker
Oh, Kings Road a lot. The Okada Omega matches are Kings Road mixed with modern light heavyweight style wrestling kind of in the way that Omega likes to move and the grace of it and the more
00:33:50
Speaker
somewhat more choreographed nature of the work. Not to put it down, like the Omega Okada series is amazing. But basically, Jumbo Saruda. Wrestling fans can find a way to complain about anything. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I don't know why we watch this. We clearly hate it.
00:34:10
Speaker
We could go do something we like instead. But basically, Jumbo Saruta in the late 80s was aging out and the aging out of the main event scene. And the product, which had heretofore been booked, is basically like Jumbo versus Evil Gaijin, mainly Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy.
00:34:32
Speaker
Terry Gordy, who would go on to form a tag team with Dr. Death, Steve Williams, with the best name, not just that a tag team has ever had, but the best name anything has ever had, the Miracle Violence Connection. Like, ooh. Garrett, why did we keep naming stuff? We gave something the best name. Like... Why isn't that the top selling shirt on Pro Wrestling Tees this week? I don't know, but you can get a really cool pink shirt that's the two of them, and it says Miracle Violence Connection.
00:34:59
Speaker
Yeah, it's real, real awesome. But anyway, and then Stan Hansen, who I did not, when I got into Stan Hansen, I started realizing that Stone Cold Steve Austin probably owes him money. Like, he is a shit kicker from Texas who comes out in a black vest with a skull and crossbones on it. And he did it in like 1988. Like, this should all sound very familiar to you. His finisher was the Lariat, which like,
00:35:27
Speaker
If you think Bradshaw's clothesline from Hell looked brutal, like, go watch some- Have you ever seen a Stan Hansen lariat? I have. Yeah. See? Did you, uh, did you know that Stan Hansen was legally blind?
00:35:42
Speaker
That actually makes a lot make more sense. Yeah, yeah. Someone online at one point pointed that out and said like, basically Stan Hansen was throwing Larry at so whatever he thought your face was, and it was your job to figure out how to not die. If you just showed him to me now in the middle of a current roster of wrestlers, that he would stand out. I mean, he looks like a trucker. Yeah, he definitely looks like a trucker. He looks like he's got that Kevin Owens thing of like, oh, I bet he beats people up.
00:36:11
Speaker
like but not in like a not in like a Ivan Drago I'm an athlete way in like a hey this dude owes me money go break his knees kind of way um uh but yeah that's that's his selling point um and Stane Hanson's amazing but anyway Baba knew that he needed to make new stars
00:36:30
Speaker
And he had a number of people that he kind of had this in mind for. And one of them was a guy who was currently wrestling at the time as Tiger Mask. He was the second Tiger Mask, Tiger Mask 2. And Tiger Mask, one day in I think 1988, 89, was in a tag match. It was Tiger Mask and Toshiaki Kawada against two other wrestlers. I forget who it was. I think it might have been Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy.
00:37:01
Speaker
Tiger Mask gets super pissed off and then he turns around and points to the laces on his mask and he's like, Kawada, undo my mask. And he unmasks in the middle of the match. And it is Mitsuharu Misawa. And this is the debut of Mitsuharu Misawa. He's like, fuck it, I'm not Tiger Mask anymore. I am Mitsuharu Misawa. I'm going to elbow you into the sky.
00:37:25
Speaker
Because, and I hope you got this from the videos I sent you, Masawa's elbow is God. That's literally what they say. I am not making the same thing. So when Kotaabushi is going to be God, he's going to be Masawa's elbow. Yes, he is.
00:37:40
Speaker
So they started building the company around this generational conflict between Saruta and Masawa. Masawa started a group called the Super Generation Army, which consisted primarily of Masawa Kawata, who was a year behind him in training. Like, Kawata and Masawa went to high school together. Like, they were friends since they were kids.
00:37:59
Speaker
and a young up and comer named Kenta Kobashi.
Kenta Kobashi's Journey
00:38:04
Speaker
He was booked like anybody who was going to one day be the face of the company. He lost his first 63 matches. So he had a similar beginning run to Brandon Cutler in AEW. Yeah, very similar. In that he got closer and closer every time to winning and won the crowd's sympathy that way. And that's sort of one of the hallmarks of Kings Road style is like, there's the long-term booking,
00:38:28
Speaker
And there's also the fact that, like, moves matter more in Kings Road style. Like, any move could be a match-ender. People don't... Like, one of the things about Western-style wrestling now, especially, like, WWE style, is, like, it's kind of all just, like, waiting for someone to hit their finisher. Which, like, is fun because finishers are cool. Like, I love a finisher. But also, like, that kind of means that you can only have one kind of match a lot of the time.
00:38:56
Speaker
Um, you know, like Omega's gotta work the neck and shoulders to set people up for the one winged angel. Um, you know, Moxley's gonna brawl until he can hit you with the paradigm shift or whatever. Um, but like in King's road style, Masawa can just hit you with an elbow and you're done. Um, but he also can hit you with, uh, his finisher, uh, the tiger driver, but if he hits it at the beginning of a match, you're not, he knows he won't beat you that way.
00:39:26
Speaker
Did he also have the finisher that's just dropping you on your head? You're gonna have to be more specific with all Japan. Okay, yeah, let me... Didn't... I can't remember if it was... I thought it was Masawa that it was called the Masawa Bomb. And it was just a power bomb onto the head, basically. No, he... Well, Saruta used to hit a folding power bomb, where he'd power bomb you onto, like, your shoulders. You'd kind of take a high bump, and then he'd fold you up and pin you that way. Now, Masawa hit... You know how...
00:39:56
Speaker
Kenny Omega will often hit Tiger Driver 98. You've heard Excalibur call that on AEW. Yeah. So, Misawa had the Tiger Driver and the Tiger Suplex. That was his kind of set of moves of the double underhook, suplexes, and power bombs.
00:40:10
Speaker
The Tiger Driver was just a double underhook powerbomb. That was his first big finisher. And then he debuted in 1991 Tiger Driver 91, which was basically that, but he just didn't finish the move and dropped you on your head.
00:40:26
Speaker
That's the move that finishes the 1995 Kobashi Masawa match I sent you. The Tiger Driver 91. And then in 1998 he debuted Tiger Driver 98. And then later he debuted the Emerald Flosions, which you've seen people hit Emerald Flosions before. That was also a Masawa move.
00:40:44
Speaker
Masawa's thing was innovative suplexes and like wrestling acumen. Kobashi's thing was strength, explosiveness, and being too stupid to give up. Because as I said before we started recording,
00:41:01
Speaker
Masawa or not Masawa Kobashi kind of always looks like he's really surprised. He's in a wrestling match Like he's just constantly astonished that he's he's here He looks like you know those sitcoms from the 90s were like Carl Winslow and Urkel would have to figure out how to fight the Bushwhackers He looks like that except he's also very surprised to be this good at wrestling I
00:41:27
Speaker
I love him. His facial expressions and his selling are what sets him apart from everybody else. He's got a baby face's face. So they booked him- He has the head of a Ken doll. He does. He just has the Ken doll head on this beef man body. Yeah, I think I texted you last night that he looks like Japanese Gaston. It's such a beautiful head of hair. It's gorgeous. Seriously. So what did you think of the 1995 match? Let's start there.
00:41:58
Speaker
So tuning into this, my initial reaction to watching this type of wrestling is it always feels like I'm being forced to eat my wrestling vegetables. Yeah, I get that. And it feels like that for a while into the match until they just start fucking wailing on each other.
00:42:17
Speaker
Like I'm a big fan of, I couldn't get enough of the karate chops to the neck. Oh dude, those chops. There are great videos towards the end of Kobashi's career where like people would pay a fee before shows and stand in line just to get chopped in the chest by him. Like that was a real, real big thing for a long, long time in Japan. But yeah, those karate chops hitting the rapid fire machine gun ones where he just like chopped the shit out of your neck and then hit one big one.
00:42:46
Speaker
They're awesome, so I've actually got the match on right now. I've got it off to the side plane Yeah, just so I can take a look at these two beef cakes. Yeah, I mean Masawa less beef cakey, but More like that's what a wrestler looks like like Masawa
00:43:04
Speaker
I hope you don't mind me saying, not a pretty man, but a man who- Well, especially in comparison. Yeah. In comparison to the most beautiful man ever produced by the, by the country of Japan. Sorry, Kodo Obushi. Kentiko Bashi's prettier than you. Though they- I'm sorry, Mr. Baba. I don't see a man that handsome losing pro wrestling.
00:43:26
Speaker
But the story of this match was, like, Kobashi could never win the big one. And that's why I sent you two Masawa Kobashi matches. This and the one in 2003. But this was him facing for the Triple Crown title. The Triple Crown was the title and is the title in all Japan. Basically in the 80s they unified these three other belts and that just became the title.
00:43:51
Speaker
and they never made one belt so like when you win the title in all japan you get three belts um that's just how it is um and it's called the triple crown but yeah bitch at the airport dude i know um but like the thing about this match is like you can the thing about king's road in in particular is you can always tell
00:44:12
Speaker
Who's up and who's down in a match very easily? And you understand why. Like I said, moves matter. So if Masawa hits a Tiger driver early in the match, you know that's not gonna end the match, but it's going to give him control and be a difference maker. You know what I mean? So that the...
00:44:34
Speaker
Like, for example, before this match ends, you know, you see a ton of, like, Kobashi fighting spirit where he's fighting from underneath for huge stretches of the match. Basically, like, Kenta Kobashi kind of is Sami Zayn in NXT. Like, Sami Zayn in NXT's run was booked very similarly to Kenta Kobashi in All Japan, where he just kind of couldn't win the big one until he finally did, and then there was a huge pop. Like, it's pretty basic storytelling. It's just very compelling when you do it, and it takes years to pay off.
00:45:03
Speaker
And Giant Baba knew that he had years. But in this match, for example, there's a moment towards the end where Kobashi takes an elbow from Masawa to the back of the head. That's when the match ends. Everything else is just Kobashi not accepting reality.
00:45:21
Speaker
until eventually he gets put down with the Tiger Driver 91 and that's a huge part of like the other big thing about Kings Road style in addition to the long-term booking is this idea of fighting spirit and we have this idea in modern as modern wrestling fans that fighting spirit just means no selling like we've all seen the match and it's cool like I'm not putting down this thing that happens where like a doodle hit a huge move and then the other guy I'll just roll back and like get up and scream and then hit his big move and they'll both fall down and
00:45:51
Speaker
Yeah, we love that. It's the best. It gets me so excited. Yeah, and it's part of Fighting Spirit, but it's not all of Fighting Spirit. Fighting Spirit, and this is how Kenta Gavashi got so over with the fans, was this was how a lot of his matches would end. Is he'd take a huge finisher and then he'd kick out four more times and then lose. And they just loved that this guy just would not stay down.
00:46:14
Speaker
And that's what happens in this match, where he takes the elbow, he won't stay down, and he's got spaghetti legs from that point in the match on. And it's very clear that he's going to lose this match if you think about it for even a second. And then he finally takes the Tiger Driver 91 and stays down. So that's my gushing about it. I know it felt like eating your wrestling vegetables, but by the end, what was your read on this match? Did you find the story easy to follow in the same way?
00:46:44
Speaker
you
00:46:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I think going into it though, I was so, I'm just gonna keep going back to how handsome Kobashi is. I get it, I get it, he's breathtaking. When you get to this match and you just look at the man, you're like, well, this guy is gonna win this match. He's too handsome, he's my action hero, this other guy is just some schlub, which is not nice to say because he's terrifying. Yeah, no, he's a monster man and he has God living in his elbow.
00:47:15
Speaker
But at the same time, you had already told me the thing where he hadn't won a match in a year or at the beginning of his career. So I'm like, all right, he is the underdog. And honestly, what I started, because you sent me two matches 10 years apart, my wife and I had just watched Richard Linklater's before trilogy. Okay, this is like that for wrestling. It is.
00:47:39
Speaker
It really is. My wife sat out there with me again while I was watching both of these. And when I told her, I'm like, oh, this is 10 years apart, just like before sunrise. Oh, OK. Is there a third one? Do they do they have a long car ride where they don't get along?
00:47:59
Speaker
There are a bunch of matches in between these two. I just sent you this one and the one in 2003. Because the one in 2003 is the one where that's the first time Kobashi beat Masawa for the title.
00:48:13
Speaker
Like, Kobashi could beat Masawa, but it's very Sami Zayn. He couldn't win the big one against Masawa. If Masawa had the belt and Kobashi was coming after him, he always lost. And he got closer and closer every time until finally in 2003, in a different promotion.
00:48:31
Speaker
Because basically what happened in the late 90s was Masawa started getting frustrated with how Giant Baba was booking. He was starting to move on to a new generation. He brought in guys like Jun Akiyama, because I skipped a whole thing. But basically the way the 90s worked in all Japan was there were these four wrestlers, and they were called the Four Pillars of Heaven. It was Akira Tawe, Toshiyaki Kawata, Masawa, and Kobashi. And it was a lot like, remember the SmackDown 6 in the 2000s?
00:49:01
Speaker
Yeah, it was very similar in that like, Baba knew he had four of the best wrestlers on the planet and he could just sort of shuffle them around into programs and make great things happen. Also, speaking of great tag team names, Kawada and Akira Tawe formed a tag team at this point. They betrayed Masawa.
00:49:22
Speaker
or Kawada betrayed Masawa and left Super Generation Army, the organization I told you he was in, and formed a new tag team with Akira Tawe called the Holy Demon Army.
00:49:34
Speaker
Everything in Japan has a cooler name. And it was in a tag when Kobashi and Masawa, because Kobashi and Masawa tagged together all the time. They were stablemates in Super Generation Army, and it was them versus the Holy Demon Army that was the big feud in all Japan in the 90s.
00:49:55
Speaker
to the point where a lot of people say there's one tag match between Kobashi Masawa versus the Holy Demon army that a lot of people say is the best tag match of all time. And to go back to Kobashi's fighting spirit, people would always attack Kobashi's knee because you probably noticed it's taped up to hell and like he had a history, he had a legit history of knee injuries. And he gets his knee just blown the fuck out in this tag match.
00:50:23
Speaker
and at some point he knows he can't fight anymore so he just starts falling over Masawa while Masawa's being attacked and being a human shield for him because that's all he can contribute to the match but he keeps doing it and it's it's amazing it's heartbreaking
00:50:42
Speaker
I'm about to shed a tear. I know, it's beautiful. And it's like, this is all I have left. This is all I have left. This is what I can give you. I can give you my literal body, my giant beefy, handsome body.
00:50:58
Speaker
But yeah, then in 1998, they beat the Holy Demon army when Kenta Kobashi debuts, I think this might be the first like super finisher, the burning hammer. And you know about the burning hammer, right?
00:51:13
Speaker
I don't know if I do. You've never heard of the burning hammer? Oh man. So the burning hammer was Kobashi's super finisher. Kobashi would finish you, he had those leg drops, which are fucking nasty. He had the lariato, which was his big lariat that he would hit. He had the moonsault, which I fucking love those lariato.
00:51:40
Speaker
I fucking love the giant moonsault. He had this way of non-verbally communicating with the crowd where if he hit a scoop slam and then did this with his fist, you knew he was going up for the moonsault. And I forget- Which is a beautiful, perfect moonsault. It's gorgeous. And the flop that it makes when their bodies collide is just...
00:52:02
Speaker
Yeah and it's also it's another thing about this style that like moves are often messy on purpose because it's a fight like there's a moment in the 1995 match where he hits the moonsault gets a two and goes back up and then hits a moonsault on masawa while masawa's on all fours trying to get back up and just pancakes him and like it doesn't look like a moonsault should look
00:52:26
Speaker
because they're in a fight, and fights are fucking messy, you know? And I love that, like it looks so, so gnarly. But anyway, he had all those ways to finish you, but in 1998, he knew he needed a new thing, so he invented a new move called the burning hammer. And the burning hammer is basically he gets you up in a torture rack, like it's a reverse fireman's carry, so you're facing up, and then he just drops you on your head.
00:52:54
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it's how it's the end of the 2003 match it also Brian Kendrick did it to coda abushi during the cruiserweight classic and it got a huge pop especially when coda abushi kicked out of it because no one kicks out of the burning hammer Kinta Kobashi did the burning hammer seven times in his whole career No one ever kicked out of it
00:53:17
Speaker
Like that's how powerful the burning hammer is. Also, it's called the fucking burning hammer. Like, yeah, it's scary. It's scary. That should defeat you. That should spray your brains all over the canvas to where you cannot continue. Yeah. So fast forward to the late nineties and thank you for letting me just go on about this.
Masawa's Legacy and Pro Wrestling Noah
00:53:40
Speaker
I hope this is the content your audience craves.
00:53:43
Speaker
you're very passionate about it we want to hear about what you're you've been geeking out on over quarantine and your it's been it's been 90s all japan and early 2000 noah um wall to wall over here um but like so speaking of noah
00:53:59
Speaker
So Baba's starting to bring up a new generation towards the late 90s, and Masawa's like, fuck you man, I got plenty left in the tank. I'm gonna go start a new promotion, and I'm gonna take a bunch of my buddies with me. So Masawa starts pro wrestling Noah, which is basically the other huge promotion, and he decides he's gonna bring Kenta Kobashi on as his ace.
00:54:22
Speaker
And so Kobashi and Masawa leave all Japan and all Japan was kind of never the same I mean all Japan's still around like you can still watch it and it's from what I've heard it's really good right now But it is currently running. Yeah. Yeah, it's where do I have where do I even go to watch that? I have no idea But I know it exists. I think they might have a streaming service But it's still around like the triple crown championship is still being defended to this day
00:54:52
Speaker
Well, that's beautiful, man. What was the leading thing that just kind of brought all of this into your life? So I had heard of like the four pillars of heaven. And I'm friends with wrestling nerds who basically kept saying like, if you like Japanese wrestling, this is the foundational text. Like if you want to understand how Japanese wrestling works, you have to watch these four guys.
00:55:18
Speaker
and understand the context around them. And then I got turned onto by a friend of mine, Captain Jack Hartless, turned me on to a great YouTube series called Walking the King's Road that I sent over to you. And if anybody listening wants to learn more about all Japan, I strongly recommend it. They recommend matches to you. It's still going. They haven't gotten up to the matches I'm discussing now, but a lot of the context I'm offering is from that series.
00:55:46
Speaker
tip of the hat to walk in the King's Road, I am standing on the shoulders of a giant who I think might be either German or Swedish judging by his accent on the series. So thank you, you mysterious German Swede. It really plays like a history lesson. Yeah, and it's awesome. It's awesome. Yeah, I love it. And it's the thing that taught me that Masawa's elbow is God.
00:56:08
Speaker
He makes that point every episode that Masawa's elbow is God and like in the match like you saw it like Because normally like an elbow strike, you know throwing a forearm doesn't look like that big of a deal But like when Masawa hits you with a standing elbow strike You fall down
00:56:26
Speaker
and you don't get it. That's it. And if you're listening to this and think, what, you mean his finisher's the Judas effect? No, no, no, no, no. This looks devastated. Yeah, no. The Judas effect looks like when you try to grab a woman named Karen's purse in the mall and she's like, I don't know you.
00:56:50
Speaker
And this elbow is more like, I want to make sure whoever's behind me has to drink through a straw for the rest of their life. And he does it so many ways. Sometimes it's just a standing elbow. Sometimes it's a back elbow. Sometimes he does it off the top rope. And not like dropping an elbow Randy Savage style, like a top rope elbow to the face of a standing opponent. Sometimes he does it as a tope suicida.
00:57:20
Speaker
He just has a lot of ways to make his elbow touch your face with a lot of velocity behind it.
00:57:28
Speaker
So does he do it like a coffin drop, but with the elbow? Yeah, basically. I think he actually may have done that in the 2003 match. He does, yeah. So to talk about the 2003 match, so Kobashi is being booked as the ace of Noah, but he's got that bad knee, so he has to leave for knee surgery.
00:57:52
Speaker
in like 2000 and they're like how is he going to come back and be what he was before he comes back he's no longer wearing the orange trunks the orange trunks one of the cool things about the all japan guys is they all basically had this uniform like masawa always wears the green
00:58:08
Speaker
Kobashi always wears the orange. He was called Orange Crush for that reason. Tawe always wears red and Kawata always wears the black and yellow. Because those are the colors that let you know not to get too close to a Hornet because the Hornet will sting you. And Kawata will kick your face off.
00:58:28
Speaker
Those kawata kicks, man. Tiny feisty man. But anyway, so Kobashi comes back and he starts coming for Masawa's title. And Masawa has what was called the GHC title. I don't know what that stands for, but it was the main title in Noah. And they build to this match. And the question again is, can Kobashi beat Masawa for the big one?
00:58:53
Speaker
And then they have this match that a lot of people think is the best match ever. I don't know if that's true. I don't even know if that term means anything once you get past a certain national line of quality. What did you think of this match?
00:59:05
Speaker
I will remember this match for the rest of my life for one reason only. It's the reason a lot of people remember this match, because it contains what might be the worst bump I've ever seen. It was disgusting. They were teasing like it was gonna happen, but then it fucking happens. Yeah, yeah. It is, so is Masawa's the one that delivers that to Kobashi? Yeah, the tiger suplex, yeah.
00:59:32
Speaker
He gives him a tiger suplex from the entrance ramp to the floor.
00:59:37
Speaker
Yeah, onto just two double underhooked arms, going backwards, having no idea where you're going. And just like you're going to hit your head on what looks like a pretty cheap gymnastics mat. And yeah, and then somehow he gets up from that. And I love him rolling him back into the ring to go for the cover. And then the pop that that fucking kick out gets.
01:00:03
Speaker
When Kabashi kicks out of that, everybody's just freaking out. It's nuts. The only move recently that I can even compare that to is at the Nick Gage Invitational.
01:00:19
Speaker
Shane Mercer was fighting. You sure do have a brand, don't you? Yeah, yeah. Shane Mercer was fighting Lucky 13 and at one point in that match he gives him the razor's edge from inside the ring through a table covered in barbed wire to the ground.
01:00:39
Speaker
Holy hell, yeah, that's rough. And once again, gets up like it never happened. Well, that's the cool thing about this though. And the reason I'm in love with this style of wrestling is it very clearly does matter. It did happen. And what we see a lot in modern wrestling is those big moves and then basically the two workers sort of resetting.
01:01:06
Speaker
But in this, like I said in the 1995 match, when Masawa hits that elbow, it's pretty much over. And then it's just a matter of Masawa going, okay, how much do I have to do to this guy to get him to stay down? But he is no longer a threat. And it's just a matter of me peppering him with moves.
01:01:23
Speaker
This match gets to the same place after that tiger suplex. Like they understand that that should be an inflection point in the storytelling of the match. And so after that, you see Masawa who's been bleeding from the mouth for quite some time now. Oh, from that nasty guard rail spot.
01:01:40
Speaker
Oh yeah, when he gets garroted on the guardrail. Jesus, you didn't even get an angle where you see his face collide with that, but you just had a feeling. Yeah, it's real gnarly. And again, I keep coming back to this. That is also an inflection point in the match. It's not just a bump. Because this starts with basically Masawa is on top the whole time.
01:02:08
Speaker
working Kobashi's arm to kind of try and take away his striking ability thinking about all that sort of stuff and then Kobashi who's been fighting from underneath for the whole beginning of the match makes some space with that and that's what lets him get those big leg strikes in that put him back on top and lets him take control for a while.
01:02:27
Speaker
It's a story and it's an easy to follow story. And like, I love that about it. Like that moment should feel like it matters and it does here. And that big tiger suplex on the floor matters. Like at that point, you see the same wobbly need Kobashi we saw back in 1995 after that tiger suplex. He's got spaghetti legs again. And we're all thinking like, all right, this is the same Kobashi. Like he's going, it's just a matter of how much Masawa can hit him with.
01:02:56
Speaker
um until he goes down but then fucking then um kobashi backdrop reverses a tiger driver and then hits that lariat that huge goddamn lariat that looks like a side of beef with a plank attached to it sticking out of one side just running into you um it's so mean and then he picks him up and then he hits that burning hammer
01:03:22
Speaker
And that's it. One, two, three. Kobashi has won the big one. Like, he finally does it. He finds that fighting spirit to just get some offense in during that part of the match where he's spaghetti-legged. And the way it calls back to the 1995 match is, oh god, it's so good. Like, it is, it rewards you for paying attention. I think
01:03:43
Speaker
One of the best things any piece of art can do is reward you for paying attention. And the reason I'm in love with All Japan Pro Wrestling and the King's Road style, because this is All Japan, it's Noah, but the King's Road style in general is that you get rewarded for paying attention. And you notice things, even going back to stuff from the 80s, they hit these backdrop suplexes that are a callback to Saruta.
01:04:13
Speaker
Bless you. But yeah, it's fantastic. Thank you for letting me gush about these matches I love. No, I'm happy you did. Because I have essentially been taking the pro wrestling equivalent of heroin for the last eight months. And you got me to stop some heroin, take a couple of multivitamins. And this isn't less brutal, I think. Oh no, the way these guys are hitting each other,
01:04:42
Speaker
Yeah, it's a nightmare. Like that tiger suplex on the floor, I mean, you can show me any number of like barbed wire table bumps you want. That tiger suplex on the floor looks worse. Because the thing about a table is it breaks your fall. And the thing about barbed wire is it cuts you pretty shallow. The thing about the floor is it's the floor.
01:05:07
Speaker
the scariest weapon of them all.
01:05:21
Speaker
But yeah, Kobashi went on to be the champ for, I think he had a 735 day reign with that belt. It is, to this day, the longest title reign in Japanese wrestling history to my knowledge. He also, you should check out, there's an amazing match you can find online in Ring of Honor in 2005 that basically made Samoa Joe. And it's Samoa Joe versus Kenta Kobashi in Ring of Honor.
01:05:51
Speaker
And it was Kobashi's first match in America. And the story goes that Kobashi wanted to work heel. And he went to Samoa Joe and was like, I gotta be the heel. No one here is gonna know who I am. You're the big guy in this promotion. I should work heel and you should work babyface. And Samoa Joe had to explain to Kenta Kobashi that Americans had been trading tapes of him for a decade at that point plus. And that everybody was gonna know who he was.
01:06:19
Speaker
And if you watch the match, when Kobashi comes through the curtain and everybody in the room is chanting, Kobashi, Kobashi, you can see on his face that he realizes they know who he is. And it's beautiful. And then they go on to have one of the most brutal goddamn matches in Ring of Honor history.
01:06:40
Speaker
Masawa also worked Ring of Honor. He had a great match against Kenta in Ring of Honor. Noah in Ring of Honor had a relationship in the 2000s.
Tragic Moments and Recommendations
01:06:49
Speaker
Masawa tragically would go on to die in the ring. You knew this, right? No, I didn't. Masawa died in the ring in either 2009 or 2013. He took a bump. He took just one too many really high neck bumps and internally decapitated himself.
01:07:11
Speaker
And that's how, he died instantly. I wish that the face that I'm making could be translated into an audio podcast because I've never heard those words put together before. But you know exactly what they mean, don't you? Oh yeah, yeah, you painted a picture. Yeah, and supposedly it wasn't that bump in particular. He had taken that bump
01:07:37
Speaker
too many times and it just the wear and tear finally got to him um but before that he was you know fucking mitsuharu masawa um whose elbow was some sort of deity um
01:07:53
Speaker
But yeah, if you like, if anybody listening likes, wrestlers like Katsuyori Shibata, Kenta, Minoru Suzuki, guys like that, or Tomohiro Ishii, Tomohiro Ishii is a great, great modern example of what I would consider King's Road style, like the guy who just won't stay down. If you like that, you need to go back and watch
01:08:21
Speaker
Any combination, just go on YouTube and search any combination of the names, Kenta Gobashi, Mitsuhara Masawa, Toshiyaki Kawata, and to a certain extent Akira Tawe. I hate to say this, but everybody kind of agrees that Akira Tawe was like the Ringo, you know? Yeah, he was the Ringo. His whole thing was- Did he earn being the Ringo? He had a million different ways to chokeslam you. That was his thing.
01:08:47
Speaker
I know what you're thinking. There's just the one. No, no, no, sir. It turns out there are many more. And he and Kawata in the Holy Demon army were a great tag team with, again, the second coolest name anything's ever had behind the miracle violence connection. They were just so good at naming stuff, dude. If you like that style of wrestling, you need to go back and watch this stuff.
01:09:12
Speaker
There's also a wrestler from the 80s who made a comeback in the 2000s, Genichiro Tenryu, who was kind of a contemporary of Jumbo Saruta. He was kind of pre-Four Pillars all Japan. But then he came back in the 2000s. And if you like Minoru Suzuki, and you like the idea of a cranky old man hitting people until they die, you need to watch some Genichiro Tenryu. I'm gonna send you a match. It's Genichiro Tenryu versus Kenta from I think 2005.
01:09:41
Speaker
And it's just little bitty Kenta doing Kenta stuff, you know, running around and like hitting you and just this, this, this fridge of a human being getting crankier and crankier until he just rabbit punches him and he falls down.
01:09:57
Speaker
It's great. Anyway, yeah, that's what I wanted to show you. I'm so glad you enjoyed it. If you like it, go watch more. It's just, it's so good. Okay. Well, this makes me feel like I need to go back and show you some old Japanese death matches. Get you some onita.
01:10:21
Speaker
some barbed wire exploding ring matches. I mean, I'll watch it. I mean, I made you eat your wrestling vegetables, like put some heroin in my veins. Yeah. Yeah, my kind of wrestling, you have to heat a spoon before you watch it.
01:10:38
Speaker
which is funny because the heated spoon was one of their signature weapons. No, when I think of Japanese death matches, I always think of the story Mick Foley tells about being on the plane back from Japan after one of his death matches. Do you know this story? I don't know if I do. So apparently it's in one of his books. He talks about, and I'm probably gonna butcher the story, but the basic idea is that he was sitting in his seat and it was like hours after the death match.
01:11:08
Speaker
and um someone starts complaining nearby um about the smell of something burning and then he realizes it's him um like someone's like what smells like burning hair and he's like oh shit that's me um
01:11:29
Speaker
Yeah. That's exactly what he still smells like when you go sit on his lap as Santa Claus. Oh, that's delightful. Mick Foley is, we don't deserve Mick Foley. We really don't. Yeah. The fact that someone that's scary is that nice is baffling to me. But yeah, I will go watch some Japanese death match shit. I am a feared, but I will do it.
01:11:56
Speaker
Well, I appreciate you coming on, man. Absolutely. This was a blast. I'd love to come back anytime and bring more wrestling vegetables or I will go watch some wrestling heroin and you can gush over it like I gushed over this while I sit in quiet terror.
01:12:15
Speaker
Yeah, this has been a big year for Alex cologne and I feel like you need to know about that. Yeah, I know the name Did what was he involved in the bruiser Brody murder or was this or is it one of his relatives? I believe that was a relative. I don't think
01:12:29
Speaker
Good. I think he's younger than that. Gotcha, gotcha. So he is not personally responsible for the death of Bruiser Brody. Oh, by the way, I don't know if I've ever asked you this, and I hope you don't mind me bringing up yet another thing when you were clearly trying to wrap up the podcast, but this is good wrestle content. Have you ever, I know we've both, we've both visited Japan. Did you go to Ribera Steakhouse while you were there?
01:12:54
Speaker
No, I really, I really, really wanted to, but that was one of the things that my wife was just like, I'm here to eat good food. I don't need to eat shitty steak. Okay, that was what I was gonna bring up is the steak is not that great. It is adequate steak at best.
01:13:15
Speaker
The reason I thought of it is that Stan Hansen and Bruiser Brody were the guys who discovered Ribera Steakhouse. They were over in Japan and Stan Hansen and Bruiser Brody really wanted a steak. They were tired of eating fish and rice all the damn time.
01:13:31
Speaker
and they found Ribera and made it into what it is. There are two locations. I apparently did not visit the original, but the one I visited is just like, it looks like a barbecue shack. There's like a few long tables and like stools where people sit. There's a bar. And the only thing on the menu is steak with corn.
01:13:52
Speaker
I don't know why corn, but it's corn and then there's beers. And the steak is like, it's like somewhere between a good steak and a waffle house steak.
01:14:05
Speaker
I was getting ready to say, where does it compare next to an IHOP steak? It's thin and wide like an IHOP steak. It's not, no. I don't even know, I don't remember if they asked me how it was cooked, how I wanted it cooked. I am positive that if they did, they did not follow my instructions.
01:14:26
Speaker
But did you taste the history? Did you taste the wrestle history? I tasted butter on the steak. But one cool thing that happened was, you know, I was gushing the whole time because the place is covered in pictures of wrestlers, like the walls, the ceiling, everything.
01:14:44
Speaker
My wife gave me one wrestle day while we were there, because we were there for my birthday. So I went there. I got to see a Michinoku Pro match, the most convoluted match I've ever seen in Corrigan Hall, which that's a story for another time. But the really cool thing that happened was the manager, I guess, heard me gushing. And he came over and asked me, who's your favorite wrestler? And at the moment, the answer was Kazuchiko Okada.
01:15:14
Speaker
And he pointed out the picture of Okada wearing a Rivera Steakhouse jacket on the ceiling. And that was super cool because he just seemed, the difference between being a wrestling fan in Japan and a wrestling fan here is like, there's very little stigma to it there. One thing I will say about the match we went to was like, it was a very mixed crowd. Like we were sitting next to some like professional looking women who were there and they were super stoked to see it too. And like, it's just a thing people like there. And the fact that this like,
01:15:41
Speaker
old Japanese dude was just so stoked to share wrestling with me warmed my heart. Did when you were at that match, did you cheer and scream and stuff? Um, I think I just sat in shocked horror. It was a crazy, crazy match. Um, I think I cheered. Yeah.
01:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, so I went to Wrestle Kingdom and actually got in trouble for cheering, for standing and clapping. No, this show was not like that. We got there late and they gave us a discount and gave us front row seats for this insane cage match, which was like,
01:16:30
Speaker
Honestly, I wanna come back and tell you that story. Cause it's goddamn wild. And the great Sasuke was there, it was awesome. And two extremely old men in trunks. Like just a couple, it was like watching two melting candles fight.
01:16:55
Speaker
It was nuts. God, the last time I saw a great Sasuke fight was against Joey Janela at Spring Break 2. Really? Yeah, and that would have been about two, three o'clock in the morning, I think.
01:17:08
Speaker
Great Sasuke was really trying to put himself inside of a trash can so that he could do a dive off the top rope to the floor and it just didn't work out watching this old man try and get a trash can over his head. God bless that scarred up son of a bitch for trying though. Alright everybody, thanks so much for tuning in. This has been Predetermined. I am Garrett Callender. You know what? Derek did all the social media.
01:17:33
Speaker
Derek did all of that. Yeah, you can hit these guys up at a Wrestle Hangout on some platform or another. I don't remember which one. You can find me on Twitter at I better be funny. And then find me and just look up who I follow. And they're in there. Do it that way. Perfect. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for listening. Hit our goddamn music.