Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
When Listening Becomes Leadership with Adam Kinnest
71 Plays18 days ago
We admire leaders who listen deeply — but what happens inside their minds while they’re listening? Beneath the calm exterior, there’s often a quiet tension: the urge to speak, to fix, to prove. Today, we’re exploring the second voice of leadership — the internal dialogue that makes empathy possible.
Today, I’m joined by Adam Kinnest, a purpose-driven leader known for his calm, inclusive approach to complex challenges. Together, we’ll unpack what really happens inside the mind of a listening leader — the doubts, tensions, and choices that turn empathy into resilience.
Connect with Adam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-kinnest-316705146/
At The Second Voice, we explore the inner conversations leaders rarely say out loud.
If this episode resonated, it is likely because the second voice is active in your leadership too.
Hosted by Luisa Hogan, leadership resilience strategist and founder of Vermelho Consulting.
Luisa works with founders, executives, and senior leaders who carry real responsibility and want to lead with steadiness, clarity, and self-trust under pressure.
Her work focuses on nervous system regulation, leadership identity, and the inner dialogue that shapes how leaders show up when things are hard.
Work With Luisa
If this episode sparked reflection, here are ways to go deeper:
• Leadership resilience workshops and advisory
• Keynotes and curated live experiences
• The Steady Leadership framework and private sessions
Learn more at: vermelho.com.au
Stay Connected
Follow along and join the conversation:
• Instagram: @thesecondvoicepodcast
• Instagram: @luisahoganhq
Subscribe, rate, and review The Second Voice to help more leaders find these conversations.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the Second Voice Podcast, where we talk about the conversations that leaders don't say out loud. My name is Louisa Hogan, and I'm your host. And today I'm joined by the fantastic Adam Kinnest. We have known each other for a long time in various settings, and I just know we're going to have a wonderful conversation. He's a purpose-driven leader who is all about inclusivity and listening. And I know for a fact that he is so good at that.
00:00:28
Speaker
And I wanted to delve into the conversations that Adam has in his mind when you're an empathetic leader and what that sounds like and um feels like when you are faced with different situations. What are the kind of conversation that he's having when he's being empathetic, inclusive and listening in his leadership situations? So Adam, he has um brings ideas and um innovation and people all together in his leadership. And he has got over 20 years experience in the community space, to the business space, government space. He's worked in so many different sectors. And he has become very known for his inclusive way of being. And I can definitely attest to that. um
00:01:13
Speaker
He brings a steady hand. a sharp mind and a sense of purpose to his leadership and I'm so happy to have you here Adam thank you for joining me I've given a little bit of a background but do you want to delve a little bit deeper into what your background is and where you've come from what you're doing now what are you up to ah Well, Verisie, thanks for having me. It's exciting to be here and thanks for the introduction. i think it's always a little bit ah ah interesting when you hear other people's perspectives of what you do and who you are. um
00:01:43
Speaker
You know, I like to think of myself as a little bit humble, so it It's little bit challenging to hear. um But look, I think you summed it up broadly. ah But I have had a very diverse career and a very diverse background. So um I've worked in everything from business management hospitality, running venues, cafes, bars, clubs, you name it, both here in WA, across Australia and other parts of the world. um And i then moved into innovation, education, and that was sort of, you know, I'm a person who who likes to say yes to things, right? So that was taking a leap, taking a chance and that saw me sort of move into that space. um That was sort of late 2017 or thereabouts. And I was at university, so I also found university very late in life.
00:02:36
Speaker
I was studying nursing at the time, um but I don't work as nurse. ah ah Later to then do my MBA, which led me into a job at an economic and policy think tank, which was CEDAR.
00:02:52
Speaker
And i was there for about five years working across business industry and government. And then ah recently have moved into ah another member style organisation working with Australia's largest engineering peak body, Engineers Australia. so Amazing.
00:03:09
Speaker
Very interesting career a journey, but um it's it's been a wonderful journey. Yeah. And you're the general manager there, right? so I am the general manager. Yeah. Amazing. So such a diverse career. And i mean i know i know you. when you know your Your bio says that you are a purpose-driven leader and you are great at listening.
00:03:29
Speaker
I so agree with that because every conversation we've ever had, I've felt so um heard by you, but also the way you're able to link different perspectives together and bring ideas together and not be um so married to one perspective. So tell me a little bit more about that. how like What is that skill to you? Is that something that you feel that you do naturally or is that something you've needed to develop?
00:03:55
Speaker
I think naturally that's sort of the way I approach things. yeah i mean, active listening is is challenging for anybody. it's I think that's the skill that I've had to to really learn to harness more. um But that sort of connecting ideas and voices um and aligning it to purpose.
00:04:15
Speaker
I think naturally, obviously, the longer I get through my career, I realise that it it is a natural skill that I've had. um i don't believe it's something that I've had to really learn. um And for me, I think that's the reason why I've become so good at it is when I've been able to identify and I've had people like yourself sort of acknowledge that, um but leaning into those skills as part of being authentic, being an authentic leader and an authentic person and not trying to be something that I'm not, yeah what other people expect me to be as a leader. And I think that's really challenging when you have ah different traits as a leader. You're not standard, you know, I would say CEOs and executives, there are pretty standard traits. um I would sit a little outside of that, um but I think that's my superpower.
00:05:08
Speaker
Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I find that, i you know this is a this is a podcast about self-talk. And obviously in your career, you've journeyed along and you talk about like standard CEOs and leaders. You know, personally, I find sometimes you walk into a room of those kinds of leaders and there's a lot of ego and bluster in that room. What is your self-talk telling you when you're amongst those kind of leaders? And how do you remain authentic and and true to your own superpower, as you say. Look, that's ah that's a big question. I think that's always going to be a challenge. It still challenges me now. um
00:05:47
Speaker
ah You know, I still go in with a bit of self-doubt, little bit of apprehension. i mean, it's that imposter syndrome that rears its head and you sort of sit there and go, ah should i even be in this room? What have I got to offer? What's my contribution?
00:06:05
Speaker
I'm not the smartest person in the room. And I think you've got to, you know, for me, it's reminding myself that, you know, i have a seat at the table. I've earned that seat. I've worked really, really hard to be there. um And i wouldn't be there if I didn't have something to contribute. And so it's about waiting for that moment, you know, where there's space created to have, you know,
00:06:30
Speaker
that contribution heard, sometimes you've got to kind of pull your way in there as well. and Just, you know, make yourself known. And sometimes I think it's important to remind yourself to remain silent and to listen, because there's always something to learn from the people around the table.
00:06:49
Speaker
um And throughout my career, meeting CEOs, meeting senior leaders, politicians, I think the one thing that I've learned is that everyone is human and the amount of self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear that a lot of those people have when they lean into those spaces, um you'd be surprised how that affects those people. um And so we're we're all in the same position.
00:07:18
Speaker
And so I think it's about making sure that you take as a leader, you allow for people to make mistakes and create that space to listen, to to learn from them, but also allow them to make mistakes. Right.
00:07:36
Speaker
Just because you're a CEO and exec doesn't mean you're not going to make a mistake. Yeah. So if allow that I expect that yeah in return. yeah yeah and And I imagine you would be like that with your team too. you know It's like this, I mean, I love that, where you're allowed to make mistakes. I've been in teams or with you know CEOs who've been you know before I got into executive roles. where mistakes weren't allowed and they would absolutely lose it. They would lose it if people make mistakes. And then now that I've been through the eye of the needle and been in executive roles myself, ah looking back, I think, oh, how hard would they have been on themselves, right? Like, you know, if they if they had wanted that perfection from all of us, how much perfection would they have expected out of themselves too, right? It's like it must be exhausting to be that kind of ah of a leader, right? so
00:08:28
Speaker
Yeah. ah Look, I can't imagine. i don't. yeah I mean, I am hard on myself at times, but um i particularly when it comes to my team or the the people around me that I work with, um it's really about meeting them where they're at.
00:08:45
Speaker
and authentically listening to what they need. You know, as a leader, my job is not to be centre of attention. It's not to be the one that is, you know, constantly doing.
00:09:02
Speaker
My job is actually, it's actually a really big responsibility. You know, I'm responsible not only for the output and the results that the team deliver, but creating an environment where they feel empowered, that can deliver, make decisions. And if they make a mistake, that they know that they can raise that.
00:09:21
Speaker
Let's have a conversation, you know. But I do put a little bit of framework around decision making and how people do things. So if a mistake happens, then we limit the impact, obviously, on your organisational situation.
00:09:35
Speaker
um And really it's what's what's the potential risk to the brand? How much money is this going to cost us? um And also your own personal professional brand.
00:09:50
Speaker
So being able to make quick decisions using sort of that framework is something that has really helped me. And that's sort of what I try to impart to to my team and the people around me. And then we just close out that that loop of feedback if something does go wrong.
00:10:05
Speaker
um But again, they've got to feel safe. There's got to be some psychological safety um for them to be able to do that, whether they have good outcomes or bad. yeah And obviously celebrating the good outcomes is really important as well. um But to create an environment where they can come and sit and debrief and talk to me yeah and we can work together.
00:10:26
Speaker
How do you control that inner voice that you know while they're debriefing with you and you know trying to generate their own solutions, how do you control that inner voice that wants to jump in and provide the answer? like What do you tell yourself? Because I know this is sometimes a weakness of mine. I i sometimes see a solution and I want to jump in and and offer it. And you know I do executive coaching, as you know, and like sometimes i I can see the answer and I want to provide it But you know it's about reining that in. What are your techniques for reining that in?
00:10:55
Speaker
um It's really difficult. yeah um it's It's really challenging. And as someone who's neurodiverse, I tend to be able to see five steps ahead and I already know where we're going to be. yeah um But again, I think it's really around...
00:11:16
Speaker
That's not my journey to have, that's theirs. um If I want to lead them a certain way, it's about asking the right questions at the right intervals.
00:11:27
Speaker
um And something i learned ah from a former CEO who also struggled a little bit with this and um she had a very good technique, which I've now taken on, is I'll sit on my hands. It's amazing, yeah. um And I'll ask myself, why am I speaking?
00:11:45
Speaker
yeah So I think that helps me as a technique because absolutely I want to jump in and I'm like, no, no, no, this is the whole answer.
00:11:56
Speaker
um But that doesn't do anything for them, their growth. And at the end of the day, as a leader, I need reliable, capable individuals around me um and for our organisation. So it's super important that their growth um is at the forefront of those conversations rather than me providing answers and direction. Yeah.
00:12:19
Speaker
It can be a real challenge. And I think, you know, for anyone listening who's at the start of their leadership journey, it's like a, it's a key skill, I think, to learn and also to not rush, you know, because you, it's that feeling of if I just tell them it's quicker, like it's quicker than allowing them to go and discover for themselves and fail and come back and learn.
00:12:39
Speaker
But at the same time, and might be quicker in the short term, but in the long run, they've learned nothing, right? And, you know, the long-term outcomes are far better if you allow people to fail and and fail excellently is what I like to call it. You know, it's like you fail excellently, which means you fail and then you learn from it and you come back stronger. So um that's a real challenge for new leaders. Awesome.
00:13:00
Speaker
I think yeah you're right. And I think the other challenge that I'm seeing um is we have this productivity issue Australia right now.
00:13:10
Speaker
And so unfortunately, lot of new leaders are translating this through their teams as more work at a faster pace. rather than taking a step back and assessing the tools, techniques and skills and capability of themselves as well as the people around them to try and uplift that capability and that productivity. And so i think this is where a lot of leaders are just jumping in, doing stuff or they're finding others that can do it quickly.
00:13:39
Speaker
um thinking that that is the answer to their productivity challenge, but actually it is investing in your people long term. It's that long term providing that space for them to either fail or succeed, um but making sure that you are, you know, guiding and nurturing and creating that space where you can meet them where they're at.
00:14:02
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, ah I find people struggle with that concept so much because, you know, there's that fear of failure, perfectionism that comes into it. That's, you know, time, wanting to do things quickly.
00:14:16
Speaker
and And a lot of leaders really struggle with that. And even hearing us talk about it, we're probably going, yeah, that's easy for you, but I've got all these 50 KPIs and like, I can't afford to do that, right? So So it's a real challenge. And also, i I love the way you said that, like productivity is an issue, but it's productivity isn't about, you know, doing more with less time. So for those that aren't sure of that, can you explain that? Because I know you'll know the answer to this. Like, you know, can you explain that difference in productivity?
00:14:43
Speaker
um So really, to increase productivity really is around investing not just in the tools. So obviously technology has enabled us to be more productive, um but also in the uplift of capability in your people.
00:15:00
Speaker
And I think, you know, what we've seen over the last sort of 15 years is there's been a day decrease of investment in either leadership training, training and development as ah as a whole um in our people.
00:15:17
Speaker
But that is where we get more productivity output because the capability uplifts. And then obviously as new technology comes in, it's always looking at how we can do, you know, more with less, but in the frame of using the technology we have. And obviously AI is a really big conversation right now.
00:15:36
Speaker
um but There aren't just productivity gains there with that tool. It's still going to take a little bit of time. It actually takes a little bit more time to use AI effectively.
00:15:48
Speaker
um i really you know empower my people to use it, but use it almost like grad. Yeah. sense check the work, use it as a starting point so you're not starting with a blank page essentially. um But it takes a bit more time for input so you get better quality output from from the technology. and um But then going back to that learning and development is that you have to teach your people how to use it.
00:16:13
Speaker
Then you have to create a safe environment for them to feel like it's okay to use this tool because it's you know ideally doing things faster. higher quality, more output, more productivity. right So um it's not about doing more with less hours or or more with less. It's about effectively using the tools and technology correctly, but also making sure that as a leader, you're investing in that to learning and development and knowing that that is, you you it takes time. um
00:16:46
Speaker
You know, carve out an entire day of learning for your people. um It is an investment, but even if that person leaves in 12 months time, that person's capability is uplifted, which means that particularly in a place like Western Australia where, you know, a small pool of employed people all working, you know, we sort of hop around companies a little bit here, um everyone's going to benefit.
00:17:13
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. going to pause it there because I'm little bit concerned that we're close enough. You lean back. bit forward just in closer because we're recording you can stay like that um we're just recording on a video instead of through zen castor for today because i couldn't set it up for me normally a zen castor would do the balancing but i'm just doing a video so i just want to make sure that we're not too different okay reset that um would you you would i know i know the answer to this going ask it anyway would you call yourself an empathetic leader
00:17:46
Speaker
I would. Yeah. Absolutely. i think, um, but I've also had to really understand what type of empathetic leader I am. Cause I think people mix empathy up with, you know, I feel how you feel. I lead through empathy.
00:18:06
Speaker
And for me, the principle of that is creating space for others to, again, to learn, to fail, but also, to help meet where they're at.
00:18:19
Speaker
you know I've come into a new organization, um you know i spent five years with a previous team and who were highly capable but also had to you know learn ways of working.
00:18:32
Speaker
And now I've come into another team who are you know highly capable um but the organization's going through transformation and so i see an opportunity to help uplift them.
00:18:44
Speaker
and their capability to meet the challenges of you know our new strategy and where we want to go but they're not quite there. So I need to just lead with empathy, which is creating space, having honest and open conversations and listening.
00:19:02
Speaker
before I make decisions on, okay, how am I going train, develop them? Are they the right people in the right spots? All of those are questions we ask ourselves as leaders. um And there's that challenge of not wanting to move too slowly, wanting just, yep, let's let's get it done.
00:19:22
Speaker
But you absolutely have to take your time. Yeah. Does that ever drain you? do you ever feel emotionally drained by doing that? I would say i've had a lot of really big lessons probably in the last three years or so in how to departmentalise more of that.
00:19:41
Speaker
Prior to that, I would say um absolutely really draining. yeah um And I think the challenge I had was i was I couldn't understand why leaders around me, my leaders at the time, didn't lead the same way because ah felt like it got better results. But again, their leadership style is their leadership style.
00:20:04
Speaker
Mine is different. um And so it was really frustrating, really challenging. And I was constantly, felt like I was you know swimming against the tide a little bit.
00:20:15
Speaker
um but it's about acknowledging the things you can impact and change and acknowledging the things that are completely out of control. okay can't control And this is a lesson that you you know we talked about many years ago about what is within my control.
00:20:31
Speaker
um And so that's the ongoing challenge. But understanding that allows me to sort of acknowledging myself, okay, this is this is becoming quite exhausting and, you know, I'm constantly worried about how this person might proceed this conversation or what's happening in their life and all those things are important but I'm also an individual and I'm also, you know, a person who has feelings and and their own challenges and I've got to put as much time into myself as I do the people around me.
00:21:03
Speaker
That's quite something. And I love that conversation we had all those years ago, you know, and it was like a real aha moment, I feel like. and But, you know, it is a journey in your self-talk around, you know, switching from that, like, why aren't you, like, better at this? Like, it's not hard, you know. yeah And then switching to that, okay, well, they're on their journey and changing your self-talk around that. because it is easy to get into that like negative loop of feeling like it's so unfair and you know I want people to just you know ah be a little bit more empathetic like I am and be a little bit more caring about how other people are around me but sometimes it is about looking it and going this is out of my control and I can only control what's um you know what i what I can do, right?
00:21:50
Speaker
So like I know that shift happened within you did that take some practice afterwards to get that right? Or was it like a switch, the an aha moment and then it like you know it was easier to to change that narrative inside your mind after that?
00:22:04
Speaker
It took a little while and I think the the other side of that conversation was also really understanding my values and my values as a leader. um And so coupling that with that sort of acknowledgement of everyone's on their own journey, I think was super important. So understanding what I value was transparent communication.
00:22:28
Speaker
um you know i think that that more than anything was, was, is, is the number one value for me. Um, because I have other values and traits, but that one, I think for me, identifying that that's what I need from others. And that's because that's what I provide, um, is super important. And actually I used,
00:22:51
Speaker
that I was actually asked that question when I came into my previous role around how I want to be led, which was a great, you know, great change of speed. I had a leaders like, how do you want to be led? um And i made it very clear that transparent communication is the number one value I have. And so lead me through transparency and clear communication.
00:23:15
Speaker
um And that really helped be able to manage any you know future conflicts or or challenges that I faced with my leader. um And so think that plus the empathy piece and really taking that um in partnership with one another is super important. Yeah.
00:23:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny you bring up transparency because I was only just talking about that the other day around, you know, I feel like one of the key values in leadership and in building trust in leadership and going through change. You know, i I do culture change programs. Going through change is transparency. And sometimes transparency, even if you can't disclose something, it can be something as simple as, I can't tell you that today, but this is when I will be able to tell you that. And so being transparent about that rather than covering up. And it's it's interesting how you get leaders who are very good at that and and value that and others who really struggle with that and have this, again, it's self-talk, you know, this justification inside their minds are as to why that's not possible. Why why can't I be more transparent? Yeah.
00:24:21
Speaker
And so I always find it refreshing when I meet, you know, leaders such as you who who value that and find ways to make that work. Because it's not it's not possible to tell every single person every single detail all the time, right? Like some things are confidential and so forth, but there are ways to be more transparent. How do you manage that? You know, when there are things that are maybe tricky, we can't really disclose that. How do you maintain that inner value of transparency yourself?
00:24:48
Speaker
I think it's sort of what you've already called out. It's about acknowledging the elephant in the room, right? Without divulging the critical details. I think it's a journey though. um it takes a little bit of time to build that trust. And so providing, you know, non-critical, well, information that is not confidential or could be detrimental to those around you. But you know i think naturally a lot of leaders will just gatekeep anyway, so i don't do that.
00:25:18
Speaker
um And so I share as much as I can. um So when it comes time to provide just a clear directive or when it comes time to say, you know i want to acknowledge that, but I can't give you the information today,
00:25:34
Speaker
but I need you to be on board. But it comes down to at the end of that process is I go back, ah circle back and explain to them why. it's It's always closing out that communication loop um at the end is super important because that's where, again, you create that space where your people can say, okay, I understand that and you know i I did what you asked, but it was challenging and this is why. Yeah.
00:26:03
Speaker
And it also allows me to reiterate, you know, this is the way that we're working. We've agreed on this way of working. So when I, you know, thank you acknowledging that they've they've trusted me to just take action because I've i've given them a directive, ah acknowledged the elephant in the room, and I've closed out the loop. So I think it becomes easier when you do have to gatekeep information if you've laid the foundation of trust and transparency at the start as much as possible um because you get less resistance um from from the people around you because they know deep down.
00:26:43
Speaker
if If Adam could tell me, he would tell me. yeah But clearly, he he cannot tell me, yeah but he's asking me to to do this, so I'm going to do it. I have trust in my leader. Yeah, that's so true. It's like, start the way you mean to go on, and then there is no second-guessing or cynicism around that.
00:27:02
Speaker
But you're still going to get pushback, right? Sometimes you're going to get pushback. Like what is your self-talk or what is your inner voice saying? You know, how do you deal with pushback internally so that you don't feel like you failed? And, you know, what what do you do in those situations?
00:27:15
Speaker
Yeah, that's ah it's really challenging because i think like anybody, you know i absolutely can spiral and go, why? And I get frustrated. i think it's just taking five minutes to remove yourself.
00:27:27
Speaker
Go for a walk. can you know leave the office. you know if you're at home, get up from your desk, go outside, take five minutes to breathe. decompress and and just again go back to that what is within my control yeah right i can't control that the other person's reaction ah And for me, it's around resetting.
00:27:53
Speaker
Clearly, if there's resistance, I need to ask myself, did I communicate correctly? Do they have everything they need? Like, was I not clear about yeah the situation? And so then I go back and and actually set time to you know speak with that person.
00:28:12
Speaker
Just want to be clear. Have I been clear? Do you have everything you need? What are the challenges that you see with this? You know, and it becomes a bit of a negotiation about meeting me part way.
00:28:25
Speaker
um And then, you know, if it's business critical, then it becomes a directive and you just need to to manage that like any normal situation that can be confrontational, but ultimately,
00:28:39
Speaker
My inner voice is about stepping out, taking a deep breath, going back and assessing what I've done um that may have impacted that outcome.
00:28:50
Speaker
And if I need to, I'll go back and and talk to them. And if not, you've got to take it one step at Yeah, you do. Do you have like like mantras or things that you repeat to yourself when you you you you know when you might feel like you need to be defensive? I mean, I don't know anyone who does not get defensive instantly in the moment and then the emotion might pass. do you I mean, do you have any tips or tricks that you use to make sure you stay on the path of listening and, you know, being empathetic, you know, all of those skills that you've built up? Like what do you tell yourself?
00:29:22
Speaker
um Adam, sit on your hands. Why are you speaking? yeah um But for me, I'm human, so you know that that is a challenge and it's an ongoing challenge.
00:29:36
Speaker
But it's reminding myself that um particularly as a leader, that how I react and how I act will have an impact on the people around me.
00:29:48
Speaker
Even if those people aren't in my direct team, even if I've never met that person or, you know, my position impacts everybody in the organization. And so have to stop and remind myself that what I'm about to say, well, that add value to this conversation.
00:30:07
Speaker
will it detract from the purpose of what we're trying to achieve and does it really need to be said out loud and right now? Yeah. Okay. I think it's, it's around impact intent and will it add value or not?
00:30:21
Speaker
Yeah. And if I walk away and I go, I really, really should have said something. It's usually to a person, it's usually to the situation. There's always someone leading that and it's just asking to set some time and go, Hey,
00:30:36
Speaker
you know, you open to a conversation, it didn't sit well with me and this is why, this is what I see is going to be the barrier. So yeah, for me, it's just, why am I talking? you know, yeah am I going to add value to this conversation right now? And is this the right space to to have this conversation? How then do you stop it going from the the going the other way where it's like too much listening and not enough decision-making, you know, because there's a balance because, you know,
00:31:03
Speaker
I mean, I've been caught in this trap before, you know, in my leadership journey many years ago where it's like I'm learning how to make sure that I'm being inclusive and listening to everyone's opinion and getting a lot of buy-in. But if you do that too much, you spend so much time trying to get everybody having a consensus that no decision is made and then people get frustrated with you as a leader too because you're being… It's too much the other way. So what are the techniques that you have to make sure that you've got that balance ah of listening, empathy, but then, okay, now's time for me to make a decision and some people aren't going to like that and I've just got to make the call. What what do you tell yourself?
00:31:40
Speaker
I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of um the process. yeah It's actually verbalizing that process though. So ah it might seem like a really simple thing to do, but stepping into a conversation or a meeting, particularly um with an agenda, but being very clear upfront with people in that room to say, right, so this is why we're here.
00:32:08
Speaker
and ideally before we leave this room, I'm going to make a decision or we need to make a decision. So we're not gonna leave the room until we make a decision because it's critical. um And so let's create it open conversation But ultimately, the end of this hour, you know, it doesn't mean you won't go back and you you won't have some back and forth, but an agreement on the outcome of that discussion is super important. And if that is where we're here to make a decision,
00:32:38
Speaker
And you don't you know you don't need everybody involved in that decision making either. yeah um But you do have to create the space again for people to be able to come to you and say, hey, why was I not included in that conversation? So you've got to be very clear around why you're excluding individuals from those types of conversations um and or why you're including others.
00:33:03
Speaker
And, you know, I've only been in this new role for 12 weeks and i'm it's taken a bit of time for me to learn this technique of making decisions quickly. um And so I've had to make a few decisions quite quickly.
00:33:17
Speaker
um And what was interesting was to get the the feedback from the team to go, oh how did you come to that so quickly? you know ah You know, we need to sit and we need to talk through this. And so I'm sharing my process, my framework, like what's the impact of the brand and the business? yeah You know, is is it costing us anything? And will this have an impact on our professional brands or personal brands?
00:33:44
Speaker
No, it's minimal. yeah So looking at our strategic plan and where we need to be, this doesn't serve that. So I'm happy to revisit it. But right now, a decision has to be made and I made it. Yeah.
00:33:58
Speaker
I mean, ah I always love going back to Patrick Langeone. I love his work and I love his books. Anyone listening? Look up Patrick Lencioni if you haven't already. But, you know, he he says the same way, if everybody weighs in, you get buy-in. And it doesn't mean everybody has to agree, right? Like it's just if everybody has the opportunity to authentically say what they think about the thing, without us needing to come to a consensus, you're actually, as the leader, and put get put in a position where you can make the decision.
00:34:25
Speaker
without everyone having consensus and because everyone feels heard by you. And I i just love that you're naturally doing that and, you know, i hearing what you say and I'm like, well, that's the environment that you create, you know. And then if people have problems with that, you talk them through the process and where that came in and people are like, oh, okay, yeah, I see that. And I think that's such an important element of leadership and and I love that you talk about that as part of your own process, you know. It's really good. I've always loved that about you, actually. you You're really good at that. um In terms of you know your experience, like you've worked in community, you've worked in government, you've worked in a whole bunch of areas um
00:35:03
Speaker
You know, what's what's been like the thing that's mattered? I mean, you've touched on this, but, you know, if you had to say the number one thing now, you mentioned earlier transparency, but what's the number one thing now that's weaved through all of your leadership that you think is the number one priority for you in terms of, you know, it could be values, but that comes up in your mind all the time.
00:35:25
Speaker
So it'd be my why. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. um purpose and impact. yeah And I think for me, you know, i when you start out, you want to, you think having impact is this big thing. And ultimately um for me, it's around,
00:35:45
Speaker
making sure that when I'm gone that I've helped contribute to a bigger change. Now, i think, you know, maybe maybe my ambition should be bigger, but ultimately i'm you know, I'm not going to be You know, they're going to build statues in my honour and that's not what I want out of my career.
00:36:06
Speaker
You know, i would like to look back on my legacy and my career, knowing that that person I created space for and helped develop became something bigger and they had impact.
00:36:17
Speaker
um You know, the people around me, the organisations that I work for are all looking to have positive impact. not just on the communities or the people they represent, but also on Australia as a whole.
00:36:33
Speaker
I mean, you know, in 25 years, where are we going to be as a nation? um You know, we've got so many challenges. and We talk about Australia being the lucky country.
00:36:45
Speaker
But we have a lot of challenges. And I think if, you know, if we're not addressing them now, um we're going to be in some pretty big trouble in 25 years. And so i want to be a part of that.
00:36:58
Speaker
ah You know, everything that I do, i want it to have impact and I want it to mean something. And I think for me, you know, it was less intentional, I think, at the very start of of my sort of journey.
00:37:13
Speaker
um But absolutely it has become the core of my decision making in who I work for, the things that I do um and the people that I surround myself with is all about impact and purpose.
00:37:29
Speaker
And I love how that's created for you such a diverse career because you haven't followed this like straight career path. You have zigzagged through many different opportunities. And it's it's one thing I've always enjoyed talking. Every time I talk to you, you've got a new interest or you're like following a new path. You're looking into new options. that feels right for you. But the one thing that's we've got in all of it from my perspective is you finding that, you know, purpose driven leadership and it's so accurate of you. It's, you know, you're finding a way to have that impact and because you have this amazing background too, you know, before coming into leadership, you know, you you've you've come a long way, such a long way in your leadership and I've absolutely loved that about you. So what's in terms of self-talk, like you talked about self-doubt earlier. what is what are the ne What's the negative self-talk that still holds you back today?
00:38:22
Speaker
Look, I think I sort of said earlier around, you know, lots of CEOs and executives and leaders have that imposter syndrome and I still struggle with that. I still struggle with, you know, I'm i'm a country cri kid who grew up um in a working class family.
00:38:40
Speaker
You know, i've still, my my parents still live in social housing. You know, ah i didn't have all of the same opportunities even most kids get now.
00:38:51
Speaker
um I've had to really work hard. But what that also comes with is a bit of baggage of, am I good enough? Do I deserve to be here?
00:39:04
Speaker
um Is what I'm saying valuable? you know ah You know, what gives me the right to have that sort of opinion? You know, i'm not an expert. You know, i'm I'm working in engineering now. I'm not an engineer. yeah I worked in public policy before that.
00:39:21
Speaker
Don't have a public policy. ah didn't have a public policy background before that. I worked in in education and innovation, didn't have a background in that. you know So you know for me, it's it's saying yes to the challenges.
00:39:35
Speaker
um you know ah That movie that's got ah Jim Carrey and he just says yes for a year. oh yep yeah yeah That's me. my My whole career has been yes Just take that challenge.
00:39:51
Speaker
um But again, that comes with that self-doubt that, oh, I'm taking a leap and I don't know what's, you know, what's there. um But I think at the end of the day, if you look at,
00:40:07
Speaker
anyone around you, it's who you surround yourself with. So I have been lucky enough to surround myself with really positive people and that's made a difference um who encourage me to remind me that absolutely I should be there.
00:40:23
Speaker
Absolutely what I have to add is valuable. um And think I just hold on to that. Amazing. That is such a cool message to give to everybody because so many people out there would be, you know, like you said, you're general manager for Engineers Australia, you're not an engineer and so many people be like, I'm not applying for that, I'm not an engineer. But you recognise you've got so much more to give and so many skills that are so valuable in that space. Same with public policy. Like every time you've gone for a role, it's not been in something you have a degree in or anything like that. And so many people hold themselves back, you know, and I love that you sit here going, oh, I have self-doubt. But, you know, from an outside perspective, people looking at your career and, you know, you taking those opportunities, it looks like you've got no self-doubt at all. I'm going to put my name down for this role, even though I don't have a background in this and I'm going to give it a go and I'm going to get that job and then I'm going to excel at it and I'm going to be there and I'm going to be amazing and meet amazing people. I know this about you. You've like every time I meet you, I'm like, you met who? And you've spoken to this person on your speed dial. Like, I'm just blown away by that, you know, um because people would never dream of putting themselves out there like that.
00:41:35
Speaker
You know, so I just love that message. You know, if you're listening, you know, take a leaf from Adam's book. You know, he. He's saying here, you know, i've got self I've got self-doubt, but I still put myself out there. Like, how do you push yourself? Is it just like, I'm going to i'm going to try. What have you got to lose? what's What's the voice that tells you to try anyway?
00:41:54
Speaker
Look, just, yeah, absolutely. Just take a leap. Just do it. Like, what's the worst that's going to happen? i'm going to say no. That's the worst. Exactly. And look, ah working in innovation, you know, i pitched and created my own innovation device. And, you know, so I've stood on stages and I've pitched ideas.
00:42:12
Speaker
um You know, when you're pitching ideas to your your leaders or your CEO or, you know, people will tell you no or hey, you have no idea what you're talking about. That's going to happen.
00:42:23
Speaker
um But one thing I think in addition to all of that that I've sort of really, again, probably in the last sort of six, seven years is stop comparing yourself to other people.
00:42:38
Speaker
And that is a really hard thing to do because I do do it and I i catch myself doing it sometimes. um But that's more out of, I think, admiration and aspiring to to be like those people or the traits that they have rather than, you know, I i must be at that level. um But you are who you are. you Your style of your leadership is your style.
00:43:04
Speaker
Um, and that's okay. Uh, it doesn't have to be the same as everybody else's. And I, you know, I was lucky enough to, um, hear a senior leader, uh, speak about her leadership style recently and,
00:43:22
Speaker
everything she said resonated with me because, and I would, it was the first time I'd ever heard a senior executive talk about leading with empathy, being human, just all of those, like we're all human, but that's how she leads. And, you know, she leads one of the world's largest engineering consulting firms. You know, and just to think to myself, here's mum, you know she's worked her way up the chain, but she's always remained authentic to who she is and who she is as a leader.
00:43:58
Speaker
um And so, know, hear lots of carbon copies of leadership styles all over the place. And that was the first time I'd heard anyone talk about what I see as valuable as a leader and it was just so refreshing.
00:44:15
Speaker
um But that is the first time in probably my entire career. So, but it reminded me that I don't have to be like everybody else. No. It's that difference between destructive comparison and constructive. yep I think you nailed it. You know, it's like, it's fine to compare yourself to someone if it's around, I aspire to have those, you know, that impact or that value, but not in that destructive way of they're better than me. It's a competition. And, you know, and again, it like it's a fine line because too much comparison can get you into trouble because you're, you know, you feel like a failure if you're not meeting up to that. And, you know, such an important message there.
00:44:54
Speaker
And I think it's really important to call out that you don't have to be a general manager or CEO to be a leader. And I think we're getting, we do get caught up in this a little bit.
00:45:07
Speaker
And I think that's another another sort of message I try and put out to the people around me and my teams is that you're all leaders. People are looking up to you whether it's within your organisation or not, you know, um they're looking to you.
00:45:24
Speaker
So think about who you want to be, even if you don't want to be a CEO, you know, in your organisation, your life. ah I think it's really important to remember that people are watching.
00:45:38
Speaker
And so, know, you don't have to be leading organisations to be a leader. No. so And that's what I really wanted to put out in this podcast too. is I want people listening who might not have the executive title or the the title and who are holding themselves back because they think people with the titles have just all of this amazing self-control and perfection in their minds and all this confidence. And, you know, the reality is we don't. Yeah. 100%. said it perfectly earlier. you know You've met like politicians and senior execs and like at high levels and you realise that they're all human. and um
00:46:17
Speaker
if the minute you realize It's actually a relief you know when you realise that. i I was coaching somebody the other day about you know networking and she's terrified of networking. and i you know i said to her, I'm guaranteeing you, 70% of people in that room are terrified of networking and they're so worried about how they look. They're not even bothered by you standing in the corner looking awkward because she's like, I just feel so awkward. And they're all looking at me being awkward. I'm like, they're absolutely not doing that. Like nobody does that, you know. um Even the higher up senior level people, like they feel those fears. So, yeah, thanks for sharing that and reminding us. So any final tips? like you know These conversations always go so fast for me. But like final tips, one thing that you'd like to leave the the audience with for – you've had so many gold nuggets in there anyway. but
00:47:09
Speaker
um
00:47:12
Speaker
Well, be kind to yourself, yeah I think is a really important message. But also – um Making sure that you do what brings you joy. Yeah. and I think naturally you will find where you fit.
00:47:29
Speaker
You will lead the way you want to lead. And hopefully, you know, you have impact in everything that you do. Amazing. Thank you so, so much for joining me today and for taking time out of your busy schedule in a new role that you're still getting to know. I really appreciate you being here with me. And, ah you know, for everyone listening, what I got from today was that it's not about silencing our inner voice. You know, Alan, now I'm calling you Alan. It's...
00:47:57
Speaker
don't know I'm going to start that bit again. for everyone listening, I just wanted to say that what I got out of today's conversation is really that it's not about silencing our inner voice. And as Adam so perfectly put it, it's about learning to hear that inner voice, but also control it and bring in kinder words to ourselves and be kind to ourselves. And also recognizing that empathy is around ourselves. understanding that everyone around us is also human in the same way that we are. And our negative self-talk is not unique to us.
00:48:29
Speaker
Everyone has a bit of it. And sometimes just listening to each other and being kind to ourselves and to each other can make a world of difference. So thank you, Adam. We will see you next time at our next episode. Take care.
00:48:40
Speaker
Well done. Thank you.