Transcript
Luisa Hogan: There's a moment before you speak when everything feels maybe a little bit tight and your thoughts and your voice and your confidence maybe is struggling a little bit inside of you.
Luisa Hogan: And in that split second, most leaders don't have a communication problem. They have a decision problem. Do I say this or do I hold back? Welcome back to the Second Voice Podcast, where we uncover the conversations leaders don't have out loud. I'm your host, Louisa Hogan, and today we're exploring why being heard isn't about saying more, it's about what happens in the moment before you speak and the internal voice that decides whether you should show up or stay quiet.
Luisa Hogan: My guest today is the most excellent Salvatore Manzi and he is a leadership communications coast coach who helps leaders turn complexity into clarity.
Salvatore: But...
Luisa Hogan: His book, Clear and Compelling, combines 20 years or more ah of research in neuroscience, psychology and organizational behavior. He's speaking my language. I love it. And he has decades of communication coaching to deliver practical strategies for turning insights into influence. I cannot wait to speak to you today. we booked in ages a ago, Salvatore, and I have been waiting for today very eagerly.
Luisa Hogan: Thank you so much for joining me today on the Second Voice podcast. It's such a treat. um'm To get going, let me know about you. Let our listeners know about you. i obviously have looked into you listened to all your podcast s so episodes.
Luisa Hogan: Tell us more about you.
Salvatore: Well, i i feel flattered and I want to return the gold because I've been listening to you and I'm loving what you're doing. Thank you for having me on your podcast and tackling this very important topic because everybody, everybody who is going through growth is going to experience that internal voice telling them danger, danger, don't do that. Go go back, slow down, don't do it. And ah my my career, I am a communications coach, so I help leaders.
Salvatore: overcome the fear of public speaking to get up on that big stage or speak up in a meeting or pitch that proposal or stand in front the United Nations, whatever their calling is to do. And how do you get past that inner voice to get up there and do it anyway? and It started from my own. i my i'm a child of a public speaker and a facilitator. My dad spoke at conferences. My mom facilitated events. So I thought, this is going to be me. I'm going obviously go down there. And when I got up on the stage, my voice started to pitch so high.
Salvatore: I literally lost my voice. He's gone. and it was so embarrassing. and I walked up the stage and I'm like, what happened? Why did my body betray me? And it threw me into the research. I wanted to know why, what's going on. And I've been unpacking that mystery, creating strategies for myself. I realize i'm more of an introverted person. So spotlight, it doesn't come naturally. And I'm also an analytical person. So my book and everything, my mo my work is guided towards people who are more analytical thinking.
Salvatore: So super smart. I've just done a lot of calculations in my brain from a lot of variables. And now I've got to figure out how to hit the right context and speak up in and a meeting that's going to make sense.
Salvatore: Or I'm going to just wait and I'll put it in the email afterwards, which is too late. Don't wait. Don't wait.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: Put it out there.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: That's what I say.
Luisa Hogan: but who Well, I would say all of your research and learning has worked because listening to you speak, you sound so confident. I've watched videos of yours. you You don't come across as anyone who would have any doubts about your speaking and your communication.
Luisa Hogan: So I am sure we're going to learn heaps from you today.
Salvatore: you
Luisa Hogan: and and as you say, you've you've worked with very intelligent, very intelligent clients. Why do so many people, even though they're super intelligent and super capable, struggle to get information their message out and struggle to get their message to stick even when they so what they have to say is really valuable because I know many of the people listening that you know are my listeners are people who have so many good things to say but just struggle with getting that message out there what what do you find is the is the sticking point
Salvatore: I just got chills. I love this question and it's it's a difficult one to answer specifically. What I want to say to anybody listening is listen in for which category, the three you fit in. There's who you're talking to, there's what you're talking about, and there's the environment in which you're speaking.
Salvatore: One of those three factors is going to be the one that trips you up in that moment, that triggers the inner voice to say something not as supportive, Sometimes I have somebody that's not used to speaking to higher ups, you know, somebody that's going in and speaking to the the person that can make the or break the the fund, the company, decide whether you get the funding, whatever it is, creates those nerves and shuts them down. Sometimes it's the topic.
Salvatore: I have too much information about this topic. I was working with a client today who runs a billion dollar fund. And when he tried to say this one point, he's like, well, that's not exactly right.
Salvatore: and i'm like, how exactly do we need to be? They don't need to know the point 0072%. They need to know the generalization and people, smart people in the context of information will stop themselves from just saying something.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: because they want to get to the really precise and exact perfect kind of thing. um and then sometimes it's the environment. I'm okay when it's one-on-one. I'm okay when there's three or four, but when it gets to be more than 15, I shut down, something happens. So look at your own life and see what it is that comes up. My book and i have a bunch of strategies for each one of those care areas. And I myself have struggled with each one of those areas too. I went and I coached a presidential candidate and I was...
Salvatore: terrified, terrified.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: I had to do all these like, build myself up exercises to make myself bigger and louder and feel like really in my body. And before I went into that meeting with all of the other people in the room to and and offer coaching, feeling like and I don't belong here.
Salvatore: I mean, come on, this is you know, so It depends on what it is.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: What ah what if I were to ask you what, when you go to do a public speaking, what is the thing that you find trips you up or the thing in those three categories, which category and what is tool that you use to get past it?
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Luisa Hogan: Do you know, I speak in front of a variety of audiences and my my message, what I'm speaking about is fine, all of that, but I'm like you, you know, it depends on who I'm speaking to.
Luisa Hogan: And I think what trips me up is if I feel it's the comparison game, I'm not i'm not good enough or I'm not
Salvatore: Yeah,
Luisa Hogan: You know, important enough to be speaking to these people.
Salvatore: like this.
Luisa Hogan: I'm not, who am I to give them advice when they're also senior and all of that. and And the thing that I tell myself all the time is that comparison game is is useless because all of those people in the room are doing the exact same thing.
Luisa Hogan: And the other thing I tell myself is we're all human. We're all human first. And and i particularly say this to introvert clients of mine, the whole time you're worrying about yourself, everybody else in the room is doing the same thing.
Salvatore: like this
Luisa Hogan: Not one person is looking at you. not one person is looking at you. They're worrying about themselves.
Salvatore: I have a phrase I use, it's called not about me. I will say not about me 10 times before walking on the stage or 10 times before getting up and giving that talk in a conference room, because it reminds me that the facial expressions, things going on, the cues that I'm reading, 99% of them have nothing to do with me.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yeah.
Salvatore: They're thinking about lunch, that last email, whatever. The job of a communicator is actually to engage, to get their attention. That's the challenge.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: It's not like, I don't need be worried about what they're thinking about me. They thought about me for 30 seconds and now they're off to the, whatever the next thing is. So yeah, not about me.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yeah.
Salvatore: I love that.
Luisa Hogan: I love that too. I'll remember that and not about me. and you know And the other thing too, right, is I think we get so preoccupied with numbers, outcome. I'm not going to impress all hundred people in this room, all thousand people in this room, all 20 people in this room. However, you know, one person, and you know, to me, i always say, am I, am I speaking authentically? Am I putting this message out with love?
Luisa Hogan: You know, and I know that sounds very like woo.
Salvatore: no go will
Luisa Hogan: If I'm putting it out there with love, there might be one person in the room that it was, that was meant to hear that message. One person. And if that changed their day and made a difference to them, then I feel like I've had success because we get wrapped up in so many people here. I need to like impress so many people, you know, everything that you get caught up in the, you know, what am I doing? What am I doing here? And the fear of all these hundred people going to hate me. So those are the things I use, strategies I use myself, you know?
Salvatore: Love that have an expectation.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: What is the goal? I want to have one person impacted that's so much more realistic than I've got to watch everything.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: I will often go into a room and I will notice somebody make a sour face. And it just crashes every I mean, Oh, dear, I said the thing that I wasn't clear, I went on too long, I missed a point, I gave a talk for a group of scientists on visualization. If you can imagine talking to scientists about visualization, very left brain, right brain here. And this one woman sat there the whole time just giving me the most angry eyes.
Salvatore: She was like, like flames coming out of her eyes at me. She like hated me, hated the topic. And i had to just start ignoring her, ignoring her. And afterwards, she came up to me and she said, that was the most insightful presentation I've ever heard.
Salvatore: Thank you. And I'm like, honey, you need to tell your face. Because I did not get that.
Luisa Hogan: your face
Salvatore: And my mind was over here going, oh, you're ruining it. This is awful. They hate you.
Luisa Hogan: yeah yeah yeah
Salvatore: It's not real. It's not real. Comparison is the thief of joy. Believing that i'm I have to please everybody in the room going to take me down. And i like your idea, too.
Salvatore: My go-to is also to get my like my playlist. I want my playlist to pump me up. Before you go into any engagement, your brain is preparing you for that engagement.
Luisa Hogan: yeah
Salvatore: it's see And whatever questions the brain is asking, you're going to find answers to. Left on its own, negativity bias, the brain is going to look for potential threats. So if I go in thinking, oh, am I ready for this talk?
Salvatore: The brain is going to go, no you're not ready for this talk. You're never going to be ready. You should go back and you need two more weeks.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: If you change the question to a ah a formation, Noah St. John, he came up with the a formations, you pose it in the sense of a question that presupposes the positive.
Salvatore: How do I know I'm prepared for this?
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: So that pre-playlist before I get into the engagement is filled with these positive affirmations that get my mind thinking about like, what am I going to learn?
Salvatore: Well, what what perspective do I bring that nobody else in the room does? Yeah, I'm in a room full of PhDs, smart people, that person's worth more money than all of us together.
Salvatore: But what what what perspective do I bring? What value do I bring that none of them can see? And when I focus on that, that little voice inside of my mind will calm down and this one will come back higher.
Salvatore: That was all that was a lot.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: Have you ever heard of taming the grat in the Gremlins?
Luisa Hogan: No, I can't say in exactly that same way, but I kind of have a sense of what that means. But tell me more. Tell me more.
Salvatore: There's a book, ah Rick Carson, I think it is.
Luisa Hogan: Mm hmm.
Salvatore: he has a book called Taming Your Gremlin. It was a game changer for me. You name the the gremlin that comes up and then you learn to work with them. A mentor gave it to me and I realized early on that I have a gremlin named Perry.
Salvatore: Perry the Perfectionist. Anytime I get up to speak, Perry the perfectionist comes on is like, oh, no, you skipped a word.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yep.
Salvatore: Oh, they didn't understand that. Oh, you just messed up. I had to learn to ask Perry to sit aside. And here's what i didn't understand at first. I thought that I could cage Perry.
Salvatore: I could wrestle Perry down and just keep him quiet till I got through the talk. It doesn't work that way. it's like a balloon. It just kind of pops in the other direction. I had to ask Perry to sit over there.
Salvatore: And then at the end of the talk, give Perry a chance to speak because the belief came from a desire to protect me. So it is bringing some value.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: So after ah a presentation, I'll say, okay, Perry, what did you see? And I'll be, okay, that's a valid point. Nah, that one's not so valid. Okay, that's a valid point. That's good. All right, thanks for listening. Next kind of thing.
Salvatore: And I made friends with Perry. i have a couple other gremlins. I'm not saying I'm Crazy, I might be a little bit, but I have a couple other gremlins too that I've made relationships with so that those, it's not so much that they aren't loud, but they're not driving the bus anymore.
Salvatore: Now I recognize their voice.
Luisa Hogan: yeah
Salvatore: I need them. I know what they need. I know how to work with them.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, I love that. And it makes so much sense. And it makes so much sense neurologically, right? Because I talk about the first voice and the second voice. The second voice is what I've called the part of your brain that you need to activate to override the amygdala hijack, you know, the thing that makes you feel unsafe. And the thing that makes you say feel unsafe, it's there for a reason. It's there to keep you safe, to stop you from feeling humiliated, to stop you from doing silly things.
Luisa Hogan: the problem is we don't we don't need that so much anymore you know getting an email or speaking in front of people is not the same as you know going out into the jungle and in front confronting a lion right but our brain tells us it's the same thing it doesn't it doesn't recognize the context it just sees it as not as danger and that's where your gremlins come from right the gremlins are there to keep you safe and you know we have to learn to override those gremlins. I love your strategy, you know, name them, allow them to sit down, allow, give them the opportunity to speak, but then allow that second voice of yours to be the one that you listen to not the gremlin. Right.
Luisa Hogan: And that little concept is, is a game changer for me personally, because it's a signal. I I'd say that the, the first voice is up speaking through a microphone.
Luisa Hogan: It's really loud.
Salvatore: Right.
Luisa Hogan: And your second voice is a signal. It's a tiny little voice and you can't hear the signal when you're dysregulated. So naming your gremlin regulates it in long enough so that it keeps quiet long enough so that you can hear the second voice, right? So it's such a great strategy.
Salvatore: is that i love the way you put it too name at entertainment is one of the uh is the first step in self-regulation for a lot of things it goes from the and emotional processing to rational processing the emotional processing is harder for the brain it takes up more energy there's more searching more data that is scouring When it goes to rational processing after you've named it, then things start to feel approachable, accomplishable, and you can move in a positive.
Luisa Hogan: Great strategy.
Luisa Hogan: man
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: You can begin actual self-regulation at that point. Name entertainment is step one.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yeah.
Salvatore: I love your second voice analogy.
Luisa Hogan: hundred percent.
Salvatore: And I'm curious, well, I don't want to make this all about you, but we should. It's your podcast. um
Luisa Hogan: Well, it's better it's about you, but I'm happy to answer questions.
Salvatore: What is the, when you get people to listen in to that second voice, how do you get them to learn? what What is your strategy for helping people learn how to listen to that second voice?
Luisa Hogan: um A major part is teaching people how to pause and be still. Sit in peace, sit in peace for a moment and then listening to what that second voice sounds like because the second voice is not urgent, it's not cruel, it's not negative, it's actually usually very neutral, very neutral.
Salvatore: Uh-huh.
Luisa Hogan: It can be positive, but that's usually you attributing the positive spin on it, right? But to listen to it, you have to allow yourself to sit sit quietly because the noise that we have around us, especially when we're you know when we're bombarded by signals, it just dysregulates us more. So enabling yourself to pause in between phone calls, in between, meaning you don't have to do it five, 10 minutes. You don't need to take up your whole day pausing, but 90 seconds is enough to allow an emotion to pass.
Luisa Hogan: 90 seconds. You would know this from neuroscience work that you would have researched. 60 to 90 seconds is all you need for the emotion to pass.
Salvatore: Uh-huh.
Luisa Hogan: We make emotions go on longer by ruminating on them.
Salvatore: Exactly. Exactly. And my go-to for people is to think about an animal like like a dog. If it experiences something intense, it will shake real quick and then it goes.
Salvatore: That shake tells its body to release the cortisol.
Luisa Hogan: Correct.
Salvatore: The cortisol has now been neutralized and it can go back to normal.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: If we as humans have some kind of an emotional rush, but don't have a way of regulating, sitting with it, releasing it, then it's going to keep coursing and our perseveration is going to keep coursing and adding to it even more so i'm not saying you have to get up and shake like a dog but there is there are methods with your breath squeezing your feet squeezing your hands or some sort of like shaking out your hands if you're backstage that will reset the cortisol to release it from your system so that you can continue moving forward
Luisa Hogan: I agree. aren yeah I talk about anchoring, breathing through that pause, all of that, those strategies. So essentially... I love what's emerging here. It's not so much about your communication, but it's about all the stuff that happens before you become visible, before you're communicating, right?
Luisa Hogan: So, you know, you talk about all all of these strategies, right?
Salvatore: yeah
Luisa Hogan: What what else internally? how Tell me that voice that people have internally that's giving them doubt. How else can you recommend for people to not...
Luisa Hogan: see that as the truth, because it's so easy to hear thoughts as facts, right? How do you make people realize that the thoughts aren't facts? How how would you suggest they tackle that?
Salvatore: That you're, there's a couple of ways I would approach this and let's just talk about conversations because a lot of my clients are people leaders as well. So they have a lot of interactions. Sometimes those are difficult conversations that they have to go. Sometimes energy gets built into them. So when approaching something like a difficult conversation or a high in the highly energetic inner emotional conversation,
Salvatore: What you want to do is, with the self-regulation, take a pause and check in with your body. what's going Where do you feel the energy? Is it in your throat? it your throat? Sometimes just putting your hand where the energy is is a self-comforting tool allow yourself to drop in to that place, to allow yourself to calm.
Salvatore: Second, since we're working on the body, is the double inhale. You probably heard this as well. there's ah there's If you inhale once and then inhale deeply after, it does something. It opens the capillaries a little bit, then opens them the rest of the way in a way that also regulates down the emotional charges that you're feeling.
Salvatore: But the topic that you were talking about, like how do I know what's real and what's the emotion? One of the tools that I help my clients do when they have those difficult conversations is to write down the data, the judgments,
Salvatore: and opinions and emotions. What are the what is is the data?
Luisa Hogan: Hmm. Hmm.
Salvatore: What's the verifiable data? What are the judgments that you have about this? And what are the emotions that come up as a result of this? Being able to categorize that helps a person logically approach what's happening in that interaction. And then when you get good with the tool, you can start turning inward too. And I don't know if you've heard, forget her name now, but she has a, is it true?
Salvatore: Are you sure that it's true? it's a British, uh, woman who has Oh, it'll be in the show notes, folks. We'll figure it out. Um, but you ask, is it true?
Luisa Hogan: We'll figure it out.
Salvatore: Is it a hundred percent true? It's very rare that it is. If it's not 100% true, that means there is some other. What else is true? And if something else is true, what's evidence that you can prove to show that is true?
Salvatore: And then what is a statement about you going forward related to that that is also true? We'll do an example. am... i am I want to say something a little bit outlandish. I get a little bit nervous when i have to lead a facilitate a group of 500 people at once. I'm not capable of leading a group. Okay. Is that true?
Salvatore: It's not 100% true. Okay. What else is true? What else is true is that I have led lots of little groups of hundreds at a time. Okay. If that's true, what's something that we can say about ourselves now?
Salvatore: to remind ourselves that, well, if I can lead a group of 100 people, then I can also lead a group of 500. It's just learning and trying a new thing. So it's a simple process of, is it true? Is it absolutely true? If it's not true, what else is true?
Salvatore: What evidence do you have that that is also true? And what can you say about yourself going forward?
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. I love, I mean, you know what I love about all of these that you're suggesting? They're so simple and easy to apply.
Salvatore: Hmm.
Luisa Hogan: You don't really have to spend a lot of time thinking about it because when I think people sometimes shy away from, you know, getting help with this sort of thing because I think I'm going to have to go through 20 weeks of training, change everything I do about how I speak.
Luisa Hogan: And it's not always true. It's not always true. Sometimes it's the smallest things that can shift you, right?
Salvatore: Yeah, I think and for a lot of my clients and myself, it's a matter of like having a toolbox that has lots of tools I can use from not only going to work for everybody.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: So I like to offer as many tools as possible. Try what works for you is meditation your thing. Great. I'm more of a walking meditator than i am a sit and Zen kind meditate.
Salvatore: I don't know if you ever meditat do you meditate?
Luisa Hogan: I meditate. Yes, I do. And I, I'm more of a Zen meditator. I like to be alone and I usually do it in a red light sauna. Hit me up if you want to know all about that because you're sweating and meditating.
Salvatore: Oh,
Luisa Hogan: It's great.
Salvatore: that is great because you're really getting all the sensations of the body is it's like that's beautiful.
Luisa Hogan: hundred percent. Yeah.
Salvatore: that Beautiful.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: Thank you.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Um, um I want to know, like, you know, now that we've, if we've tackled, you've tackled some of the stuff that you do before going on stage or before speaking or before having a difficult conversation, how can people who are in the middle of that difficult conversation have something come up for them that's making them hesitate?
Luisa Hogan: What's the difference between the person who actually hesitates and the people who step, step up? Anyway, you know, the people who retreat and the people who continue and actually say what they need to say, what's what's the difference there?
Luisa Hogan: How can they do that?
Salvatore: There's a lot to unpack in that, and in the sense that we all watch and we know what gets rewarded and we know what gets punished. And we make decisions based on the culture that we're in and how far we feel comfortable pushing any boundary.
Salvatore: What I know is that most of us go far shy of that boundary as a safety. And really, i tell people, you don't know how far you can go until you've gone too far.
Salvatore: First, build the relationship. build a sense of psychological safety where you have an agreement with that person that you're going to in some sense explicit or implicit you're going to continue the relationship and work through situations that come up before you go wild and try to hit a home run And then when you get that moment and your voice says, oh no, and don't say that just yet, say it.
Salvatore: Take a risk, put yourself out there. i had to challenge myself partly because I'm an introvert. um but I challenged myself for about five years to speak before it feels comfortable.
Salvatore: Because I want to come up with a perfect lock solid argument before I say it.
Luisa Hogan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Salvatore: I'm not going to say anything in this room until I have listened to everybody and I've done it all in my head and then I'm going to say something. It's not useful because nine out of 10 of those meetings I was leaving with great information that didn't get shared with the team.
Salvatore: I had to learn to speak before I had a fully formed thought, before it felt comfortable. and my go-to, and I'm not saying that you have to use this, but it might help you. My go-to was to have an entry word.
Salvatore: and my entry word was, huh, something feels interesting about that, right? Or, hmm, I have a thought, or something doesn't feel quite on or that feels off, or, hmm, can we pause here?
Salvatore: Find your entry word to give yourself the grace of saying, we need to hold on this for a second. Can I pause you there? Can we look at this again? Can we double click on this? Can we go deeper? What's your entry word to give yourself permission to start exploring that thing?
Salvatore: that you can feel needs to be said in the room, but you're not sure you're ready to say it, you can give yourself that opening. a lot of times they will recognize that whatever they said or the situation merits a a deeper discussion.
Salvatore: You might not even have to say anything. You might become known as that leader who just has to like, huh, and then the whole room changes.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yeah.
Salvatore: Right. But not unless you take that risk, see how far you can go. So my advice is speak before it feels comfortable.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, I love that. You know what I love about that? I work with a lot of teams, you know, executive leadership teams, and I'll work with them all as a group, not just individually. And um I'm sure you're familiar with Patrick Lencioni's work on trust and conflict.
Luisa Hogan: If you're if you're not, look him up, Patrick Lencioni.
Salvatore: I will.
Luisa Hogan: And one of the big things he says about building trust in a team is vulnerability, but vulnerability based on speaking up and saying things like, I don't know the answer or I need help or, um you know, vulnerability like that, right? And it creates conflict in the room, but positive conflict. And he talks about when you go first, it gives everyone else in the room permission. And that's what you're saying. If you mention it like that with your entry phrase, like, you know, this is making me think it's usually,
Luisa Hogan: other people in the room are thinking similar things they're just not brave enough to say it and the minute you do it you open up the room and the conversation gives you permission to continue with your vulnerability and to be unprepared and do that but gives everyone else in the room too and the conversation changes doesn't it yeah
Salvatore: It's a hundred percent. I had a mentor who once said, if speak, if you're speaking from the heart, you speak for everybody in the room.
Luisa Hogan: yeah
Salvatore: That, that feeling that comes up like, Oh, I should say something right now. Trust that feeling and trust that you're not the only one. And you speaking, it gives everybody permission to, I can be more present because now that is out and you've started it.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, for sure.
Salvatore: The vulnerability thing is interesting too. a you know i I work with a lot of analytical people, scientists, data people, emotions, vulnerability, these things, it's not their wheelhouse necessarily. And meetings where they're safe where they start out saying, let's get to know each other. They're like, I'm out, I'm done. i'm not gonna stay in here.
Salvatore: yeah
Luisa Hogan: See ya.
Salvatore: by one um One of the facilitation tools that I use is that if you really knew me, have this, if you really knew me, but you do it twice, if you really knew me, light topic, if you really knew me, deeper topic, and you leave it open for them to see how light and how deep they want to go.
Salvatore: As the facilitator, my challenge is always to go as deep as it feels comfortable in that room. Because I don't want to shock anybody, obviously. But I want to go as deep to give other people permission to go that deep as well. But going around and saying those two things oftentimes gives non-emotional expressive person the opportunity to share in a vulnerable way something that starts an authentic conversation for them.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, amazing. And how would you suggest that those same people build a presence? Because, and I think you you'll you will have a um your own experience in this too, because you have magnificent presence when you speak. You are very commanding of attention. i love the way you speak.
Luisa Hogan: But you mentioned before you're an introvert and you've you've had to work on that. So how do people who are maybe more analytical or more introverted or more um reserved to build their presence so that they can also command this confidence that you seem to have?
Salvatore: Number one is to start with the internal voice. that We've been talking about, like we need to be able to dialogue with that. I say, present you don't have to be perfect. You just have to be present.
Salvatore: So being graceful with yourself. Second thing is always practice in low stakes situations. As an introvert, what I did is I pushed myself to start talking to the barista and the cashier and the waiter more than I felt necessary just to start like developing the tools for social interactions that seems to come so naturally for the extroverts. And I watched other people. I watched TED Talks. I watched videos. I watched all these things so that I could learn the cues. oh This is what they do.
Salvatore: and then just experimenting low stakes situation experiment with somebody on the bus experiment and then once you build the muscle for it that's when you try it in a meeting don't try your first mean you can't but i don't recommend trying it for the first time in a meeting because then the stakes are high you're gonna have a critical voice afterwards and there's a lot to unpack do it in a low-stakes situation practice there until you start getting comfortable and then take it to the next level
Luisa Hogan: great advice do you still have doubts do you yourself still have the self-talk it comes up well i do know before we were talking you're like my hotel room does it look okay you still have the doubt
Salvatore: Are you kidding me? Do I still look dusty?
Salvatore: I know.
Salvatore: I was probably listening before we started, I was like, okay, I've never done a podcast in a hotel room and I'm really self-conscious about like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I have lots of doubts.
Salvatore: Like i I understand the impact of this little stamp that people are getting.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: This is the only visual understanding that many people are gonna have of me. And i want it to send the right message, right? And at some point i have to just give it up and let it be what it is and be present.
Salvatore: Yes, I have doubts all the time and I love it. when i' My theory now is imposter syndrome is a good thing. If I don't have those doubts come up, I'm not pushing myself hard enough into new areas.
Luisa Hogan: Thank you.
Salvatore: I want to stretch myself to feel uncomfortable every day in some little way to know that I am still growing. And i don't know if you've you've heard me use this analogy, but if you've ever rented a car,
Salvatore: The first time you get in that car to drive, it is a mess. You can't find the right jobs. You can't. I moved to New Zealand. And when the first time I went out in that, drive it was a nightmare. The windshield wipers came on when I tried to turn. And when I turned left, I could never remember which side of the street everybody else in the car is screaming. And then I was like, OK, this side.
Salvatore: um like It's awkward whenever we do something new. And the growth mindset tells us, oh, we're learning something. We're doing something new. This is a good thing. Let's keep iterating. Let's keep going. Fixed mindset is going to tell us, oh, I didn't get it right. Let's not try that again. Let's never make that mistake again. I don't want to ever try that again.
Salvatore: Adopt the growth mindset. About 90% of the things in your world in your life, adopt the growth mindset of like, hey, let's just try this. Let's see what happens. Let's keep breaking things and seeing what we can build from the mistakes and learn.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah. Yeah. Failure is not failure. I say this all the time. It's data. And I say this people and I get such different reactions. Some people are like, you may say that, but it feels like failure. I'm like, it sure does. but it's your choice on how you move forward with it. It's still your choice on how you move forward with it. Right.
Salvatore: It's so true.
Luisa Hogan: So, ah so valuable.
Salvatore: What do you need?
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: I always ask, what are the questions you're asking? Right? Why did we fail? We'll send an organization down a particular path. What did we learn from this failure is going to send that same organization in a much different way. It does feel like failure when you fail. and that's not a bad thing. Let's not label it good or bad. Let's just be like, oh,
Salvatore: That was awful. All right, let's dust ourselves off. And let's try something new. Failure is facts. Is that what you said? Failures is facts.
Luisa Hogan: If that is data.
Salvatore: Failure is data. It is data. That's all it is. I mean, if you still have breath, that means you're you still got a chance. Keep going. Keep going.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: You never get it done. had another mentor who says you never get it done. You never get it done.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: So just get up and do what you can think it doesn't matter.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, it's so true.
Salvatore: like okay
Luisa Hogan: And you know, when you do get things done, you're already thinking about the next thing. You know, it's just that's why it's never done. You're always on to the next. So that's why just enjoy the process, enjoy the ride, let go of the outcome.
Luisa Hogan: i read a wonderful book called Letting Go but Dr. Hawkins. I forget his first name. Wonderful book talking about letting go because all of our emotions around guilt and shame and It all boils down to fear and then if you can let go of each of those layers of emotion, you get down eventually to fear and then letting go that fear, is suddenly free.
Salvatore: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: And you're free, I think the main thing that you become free of is perhaps a little bit of your ego and you're realizing that you are not you are not your mind, you are not your facts.
Luisa Hogan: your thoughts, right? You are separate to that. And it's your ego, that first voice is coming from that ego telling you, you know, you're going to fail all of those things. But the actual person inside of you, if you can observe that, and you can let all of those things go, you can become so much more at peace with what you're, with what you're doing, and then failure becomes data.
Salvatore: Do you have a name for your second voice?
Luisa Hogan: Okay.
Luisa Hogan: I don't actually, no I just call it, it's just my intuition really, you know, and ah it's only over the last couple of years that I've really learned to listen to my intuition.
Salvatore: I'm not asking
Luisa Hogan: I will be, I'm a recovering perfectionist myself. My biggest thing was I wasn't afraid of failing. I was afraid of failing in front of people.
Salvatore: you. Mm-hmm.
Luisa Hogan: was afraid of people seeing my failure. The failure wasn't an issue for me. It was like I don't want people to know I failed. That was my one.
Salvatore: you. Thank you. Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: you know, so.
Salvatore: yeah that Related, you said something in also that second place is just the first to fail. Your coach, I think, used to say that.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Salvatore: how that That is so...
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, second place, the first to fail, it's the first to lose, you know, and that's where that came from.
Salvatore: It's so...
Luisa Hogan: i had to let go of that. That was a big one.
Salvatore: That is painful.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah, yeah.
Salvatore: I was in third grade the first time they entered me in a spelling bee. I don't recommend doing this to children. I get up there and they saids they said, your word is beguile.
Luisa Hogan: ah gray
Salvatore: And I was like, can you use that in a sentence? And they go, yes, you appeared beguiled by that question.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: I had no idea. And until, honest to God, until two years ago, i didn't know this, but every time I would go to write something in front of other people on a board, I would start sweating.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: i would be in terror of I got a spell. that i don't know how to spell production.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: Intelligence, is that two L's? It's a panic attack.
Luisa Hogan: Yes.
Salvatore: I would have no, I would almost black out until one day I was doing it And my co-presenter was like, What's going on? And then we unpacked and I was like, I never realized it.
Salvatore: But it's that moment from the spelling, that trauma that taught me, oh, don't ever spell in front of people.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: Don't fail in front of people.
Luisa Hogan: It's not safe. Yeah.
Salvatore: And the next day I got up and I told the whole room. I might misspell something, but you know what? I'll just cross it out and spell it again because I'm not afraid to misspell. I'm not going to let that stop me. And from that, it's been only been two years, be honest. It's only been two years, but now I laugh at it when i when i it comes up. I'm like, oh, there's that perfectionist again that wants to spell everything right.
Salvatore: It's real.
Luisa Hogan: I had the same thing. Do you know what I call mine? Whiteboard-itis.
Salvatore: Whiteboard-itis!
Luisa Hogan: Whiteboard-itis.
Salvatore: Yeah!
Luisa Hogan: It's because I stand up there and I could spell perfectly fine, but I get on the board, whiteboard-itis kicks in, I can't spell. So I always joke about that to the people I'm facilitating with.
Luisa Hogan: And I'm like I've got whiteboard-itis. Can you tell me how you spell intelligence? And then somebody's like, I have no idea.
Salvatore: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: And then we all laugh about it.
Salvatore: Yeah.
Luisa Hogan: And then whiteboard-itis goes away. You know, like name it, name it.
Salvatore: Name it. a
Luisa Hogan: Yeah.
Salvatore: Name it. Name it. That's beautiful.
Luisa Hogan: Well, Salvatore, I wish I could speak to you longer because you are you really are a joy to speak to. you You clearly are very good at what you do. And i i I hope to bring you back to this podcast again at another time because I think we can talk more.
Salvatore: Yes. Yes.
Luisa Hogan: ah you're You're wonderful to speak to and I so appreciate your time. We've been 40 minutes in and you know we could speak so much more. So thank you so much for joining us today.
Salvatore: Thank you so much.
Luisa Hogan: where can Where can people find you? If people wanna get in touch with you, work with you, where where can we find you?
Salvatore: Please go clearandcompellingplaybook.com. Clear and Compelling is the name of the book. It's clearandcompellingplaybook.com. It's a link to my website. It tells you where you can order the book.
Salvatore: It comes out in October. Please order it now.
Luisa Hogan: Amazing, I'm gonna order it now.
Salvatore: and Thank you. And I would love to hear from, I'd love to hear your stories. What is the thing that keeps you from speaking up in meetings? Share with me on LinkedIn or on my website and we'll go from there.
Luisa Hogan: Amazing. Thank you so much. I'll put those all in the show notes too, for everyone listening. What I got out of today is that communication is not just the words you speak, but it's about finding who you are inside and listening to that inner voice that is allowing you to remain calm and to remain steady. i love all of your tools and techniques. I'm definitely going to be using more of those and getting your book salvatore. To everyone listening, thank you for joining us. We'll look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Take care.
