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Starting Over at the Top with Kelly Gray
22 Plays3 months ago
What if becoming a leader wasn’t part of the plan? My guest today became an “accidental entrepreneur,” then stepped into some of the biggest leadership roles imaginable — only to find the inner voice of self-doubt never went away. From loneliness at the top to leading change without allies, Kelly Gray shows us why doing the right thing is rarely the easy thing.
At The Second Voice, we explore the inner conversations leaders rarely say out loud. If this episode resonated, it is likely because the second voice is active in your leadership too.
Hosted by Luisa Hogan, leadership resilience strategist and founder of Vermelho Consulting.
Luisa works with founders, executives, and senior leaders who carry real responsibility and want to lead with steadiness, clarity, and self-trust under pressure.
Her work focuses on nervous system regulation, leadership identity, and the inner dialogue that shapes how leaders show up when things are hard.
Work With Luisa
If this episode sparked reflection, here are ways to go deeper:
• Leadership resilience workshops and advisory
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• The Steady Leadership framework and private sessions
Learn more at: vermelho.com.au
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Each piece carries a reminder on the inside. Not performative. Not loud. Just for you.
Because leadership self-talk does not start in the boardroom.
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Transcript
Kelly's Unplanned Leadership Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
What if leadership was never part of the plan? My guest today became an accidental entrepreneur and then found herself in some of the biggest leadership roles imaginable, only to find that her inner self-doubt never went away.
00:00:15
Speaker
From loneliness at the top to leading transformation without any allies, our guest Kelly Gray talks about all of the challenges that she's faced, including doing what's right when it's not really popular.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome back to the Second Voice podcast where we talk about the conversations that leaders and entrepreneurs don't have out loud. Today, i have an amazing guest with me, Kelly, and we're going to talk about the amazing journey that she's had from selling her own disruptive business here in Perth moving to the UK and starting a senior leadership role in the UK, and then moving back to Perth and starting again, and what that all means for her, and also what it also means for her for doing things that are right even when they're not popular. So I wanted to explore that with Kelly.
From Support Worker to Accidental Entrepreneur
00:01:04
Speaker
But as far as Kelly goes, she is an executive leader and entrepreneur with a background spanning community services, digital innovation, and government leadership. She began her career 15 years ago as a support worker before completing a postgraduate degree in psychology specialising in transformational leadership. In 2016, Kelly founded a disruptive digital platform in the West Australian care sector and an innovation that quickly gained traction and was successfully sold in 2018. And I was there for that and it was incredible. or such a great was such a great product.
00:01:38
Speaker
um She spent five years in senior leadership role in the UK government and she drove large scale initiatives across the public sector, which was amazing.
00:01:48
Speaker
And now I'm so glad to say that she's back in Perth and she holds an executive role with a leading not-for-profit organization And she continues her mission to create meaningful, lasting impact in the care and community sectors. Kelly, you're amazing. I've been lucky enough to work with you before, and I'm so glad you're here. And I'm so glad that you joined me on this podcast. So welcome.
00:02:08
Speaker
Oh, thank you, Louisa. It's great to be here. Thank you for the invite. No, no worries. Well, I thought we'd start because I know who you are, but I thought we could start with Tell us a little bit more about your journey. I've given a brief bio, but let's delve into that. Like, where did you start? What drove you into all of those different spaces? How did you get there?
00:02:27
Speaker
Oh, gosh. Yeah, the the ways that life takes you, hey? It's funny, isn't it?
Overcoming Self-Doubt and Market Challenges
00:02:32
Speaker
um So, I started my career in community services program. because I was working in um in a professional setting in training and education, doing business development um and decided that I actually wanted to be more involved in helping people. So decided I wanted to go to uni and do my undergrad in psych and that's really what kick-started my career into community services and into the care sector.
00:02:55
Speaker
So, you know, worked in a various number of fields um and sectors during whilst doing my undergraduate degree um I often had three or four jobs on the go at a time plus studying full Of course you You know, the energy that you have in your 20s is amazing. um Yeah, so and did that for a few years and then when I finished my undergrad degree, um I then started working in the aged care sector, and which is obviously where we met and um I loved working in in that sector and so I feel like my career has evolved naturally over time and I can't say that it's ever necessarily been intentional. Some bits of it have obviously but some things you just you just go with the flow don't you and your career develops over time and it takes you to wonderful places um that you never thought that you would have gotten there at the very beginning.
00:03:42
Speaker
Yeah so you ended up an accidental entrepreneur. Yeah And you did that while you were working with me. So you were doing two jobs. You were consulting in the organization that we were both working at and then you started your own business.
00:03:56
Speaker
What was, I mean, you say it's accidental, but, you know, what was the self-talk that was happening for you at the time? You know, was it driven by need, passion or, you know, what was what was driving that?
00:04:09
Speaker
I think there was an opportunity that was too good to pass up. you know i saw there was ah a really, there was a gap in the market and it was ah a new gap that was emerging because of things that were happening at a government policy level.
00:04:23
Speaker
So you know you have to strike while the iron is hot with these sorts of
Selling the Dream: Business and Personal Milestones
00:04:27
Speaker
things. I i think some of the negative self-talk or um the uncertainty maybe that I had at the time why why you What makes you so too like good enough to do this?
00:04:42
Speaker
um And I think there was also a bit of someone will do it before you do it or someone will do it better than you can do it. So i definitely remember almost feeling a little bit like, who the hell do I think I am? Yeah. Yeah. But it was too good of an opportunity. and And I think as well, you know, there was two of us. I had a business partner. And I think having each other to like egg each other on almost, like let's just go for it. Instead of like a bit of blind optimism almost, I think is what's needed to be an entrepreneur. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, and it's like, but also you just live the dream because every entrepreneur, well, most entrepreneurs, you know,
00:05:23
Speaker
One, to have an amazing exit with their business, unless it's a business that they've set up that they, it's their legacy thing that they just want to have. But like two years later, you know, your self-talk's telling me, why me? You know, it's not going to be me, but two years later, you sell off that business successfully, which is the entrepreneurial dream by the way so yeah did you ever in that time like what how were you countering that voice other than you know well if you know my business partner sparing me on did you did you ever like shut it down or did you just allow that voice to settle and s simmer by i think I noticed it and then I thought well I'm just going to go for it anyway you know so I think I think there's an element of um
00:06:07
Speaker
ignoring yourself a little bit um because I knew deep down that it was a real thing, you know, that that it was a real need in the market, that it could genuinely help people to navigate the care sector.
00:06:20
Speaker
And I think, you know, in most of my career, the customer is centric to why you do things and why you're in business. And that was always my vision was thinking about the people that were trying to navigate this care system that was changing, was complicated and often in a time of crisis. That was my main motivation for starting that business. And I knew that they needed something. And I didn't know where it would go. You know, I had a concept, we developed a website and that was that. But who knows what it could have turned into if we hadn't have sold. Like it could have become anything. And I think I always would have been driven by what the customer needed. So,
00:06:58
Speaker
yeah yeah For those that don't know you, what was the business? We probably should have started with that. So it was a digital platform. It was almost like a TripAdvisor style website for care. So for aged care, disability and mental health.
00:07:11
Speaker
So it was a one-stop shop where people could go, they could find information out about those different types of services, how they're funded, how to get access to them, how to navigate the systems that they operate in. And then it also had a directory of every single provider across west cost Western Australia um that provided those services.
00:07:31
Speaker
So like it was a free service as well for people to access that they could search by providers based on where they lived, what type of service they wanted. And then there was also an aspect of ratings and reviews as well. And I think that was probably the disruptive bit. It was very uncomfortable for the sector at the time that I was doing that.
00:07:47
Speaker
um But again, I'm always driven by what the customer wants and the information that I think they they need to make an informed decision. Yeah. Is that business still going? Do you know? Sadly, it's not. Really? Yeah. That's sad. Yeah. I think maybe like, I think it kept going for maybe six or nine months after I sold it and But then, yeah, sadly, it's no longer in existence.
00:08:10
Speaker
But this is the thing, though. when When you sell it, it's no longer yours, right? um And you have to emotionally disconnect from that. Yeah. So what made you sell it? Was it the right time or was it, I know you moved to the UK, was that the deciding factor or
New Beginnings in the UK
00:08:25
Speaker
what happened? What was the...
00:08:28
Speaker
The universe is a funny thing, Louisa. Yeah. so i was just in the process of finishing up my postgraduate psych while I was running the business and i wanted to move to the UK, but I obviously had this baby that I'd brought life to, right, and was very much in love with. And ah happened to be at an event recently um I think it was the Disability Expo um at Crown and happened to be sitting next to someone who was working for an organisation who wanted exactly what I'd developed.
00:09:02
Speaker
And it was just a chance meeting that ended up culminating in the outcome and it was perfect for me it it freed me it allowed me to leave Perth which is what I wanted to do at that time and it gave their business an opportunity as well so it's it stars aligned it was meant to be it wasn't always meant to be mine ah just the fact that you sat down next to the right person at the right moment that's crazy so cool All right, so what took you to the UK? Why the UK? Oh, well, I actually moved for love.
00:09:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I fell in love. That's wonderful. Yeah, it is wonderful. And now we're married, so it's all worked out. It's all worked great. So, yeah, so he was in the British Army. He's since left, but he couldn't leave the country. And, yeah, as I said, business was selling up. I was finishing my postgrad. Everything was sort of naturally wrapping up, and I thought now's the time to make a break for it.
00:09:58
Speaker
And what did you end up doing in the yeah UK for for work It was a difficult transition period for me, absolutely. um So the first four or five months were busy looking for work and found it very, very difficult to get a job because I didn't have UK references. um And definitely experienced, have been on the other side of maybe some unconscious bias or some discrimination as well. So that was a really...
00:10:27
Speaker
interesting experience to go through. People make assumptions about you um or they make assumptions about Australia, which was really interesting to see it play out in an interview setting.
00:10:38
Speaker
um But ended up getting a job working in disability. um I was managing a supported living service over there. did that for a few months and then I ended up getting a job working with homeless people in Birmingham, which I loved. um But, that you know, i I wanted something more.
00:10:56
Speaker
um i knew I was ready for a leadership role. and that's what I was chasing and that's what I was looking for.
Leadership at Staffordshire Council
00:11:02
Speaker
So the job came up um at Staffordshire Council, um managing all their care services across the county, and I thought,
00:11:12
Speaker
that's it. That's the job i've been waiting for. So i went for it and I got it and I loved it and I was there for five years and I'm very, very proud of the work that I did there. Amazing. Now I know from previous discussions, you and I talking about that role, there were some challenges for you. Can you tell me more about that and also tell me more about the the self-talk that went into that transition, you know, going to a new country, some of those biases and then finding that role. Can you tell us more about that?
00:11:41
Speaker
I think some of the challenges was i got into the job and then i think a few weeks in I realised how much change needed to be done and and actually how much was ahead of me um in terms of transformational change. So I didn't didn't know that at the time. They never tell you this at a job interview, do they? No. This is going to be a very difficult job. um So but I think – I relished the challenge of it.
00:12:11
Speaker
I think some of the things that were going through my head at the time, well, I'll be honest, I had the worst imposter syndrome. Like I've never had that before, but I really I never even had it when I was doing my own business to some respect. Like it was, yeah, it was a lot. I think it's because i was in a different country.
00:12:32
Speaker
i was like working in a different system as well. So like everything that I knew about how things worked looked different as well. And I'd come from working not in government, but, you know, being across government and,
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, so this was, ah it was almost like behind the curtain, but everything looked different to how you'd expect it to look. So, yeah i think i definitely struggled with a bit of that in the first few months because i think some of the thoughts went through my head were, you good enough?
00:13:02
Speaker
Like I knew how much work there was to be done and I guess I was asking myself, can you do this? Are you good enough? Did you believe that you were good enough?
00:13:13
Speaker
I didn't know, but I wanted to find out. Yeah. So you didn't let it beat you? no, no I was determined. i knew how good things could be if we got to the other side. I didn't know how we were going to get there, but I had the end site in mind. I had a vision and that's what drove me, especially through the difficult days. So what did you do? like you know, what did you do to get through that? Um,
00:13:40
Speaker
I think probably the thing that kept me going, I think the the resilience aspect of it was is that I knew that everything I was doing was for the improvement of care services in that county, which would ultimately help very vulnerable people to live their best life and to thrive. And again, it always comes back to the the customer for me. Like everything that I did in that job,
00:14:08
Speaker
even though it might not have directly impacted the clients, you know, immediately, lot of it was workforce changes and job design and org design stuff. But all in that, in the end, the end goal was to make things better for the people of Staffordshire, you know. And in some respects, I look back and I think, well, I'm really proud of it. I almost see like a bit of that's my legacy. had five years there and I was able to do lot of things in five years,
00:14:37
Speaker
A lot of people didn't think I'd be able to do what I did because people had tried before and failed or given up because it was taking too long. But I think I'm a bit of a dog with a bone with stuff like that. Yeah, amazing.
00:14:53
Speaker
I mean, that's that's such a great story because I know that you had to make some hard decisions there too, right? And in that time when you were making hard decisions, you know, with organizational change and role restructures and all of that,
00:15:07
Speaker
A lot of the time those that's unpopular. Yeah, definitely was. you're not only dealing with your voice of, can I do this? But then you're dealing with the external uproar. You know, what was happening? Did you have people supporting you or were you isolated? Were you doing that on your own?
00:15:26
Speaker
There was times when we're going through the restructure that I was very isolated. So the restructure touched everyone except for me. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, there was definitely some some lonely days where, you know, you think, oh, God, i just don't know.
00:15:45
Speaker
ah just don't know how this is going to turn out, you know. And you have to, like, have a plan and take a chance on it. And there's an aspect of, being thoughtful and planned out and collecting information. And then there's also an aspect about trusting your instinct as well.
00:16:03
Speaker
And I couldn't be able to quantify the balance of it. But, um yeah, it's definitely yeah that saying is lonely at the top. I never really understood it until I was in that moment.
00:16:15
Speaker
And I was like, oh, I see what they're saying. Yeah. It's an awful feeling, that realisation. I've been there, that feeling of lonely at the top and you can be surrounded by people. Surrounded even by supportive people, but it still can be very, very lonely because it's all on you, especially when you're making big decisions like that, right? Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:36
Speaker
you know It's hinging on you've made this decision and now you've got to own it and see it through see it through. And it could all go terribly wrong. It could all go terribly wrong. And will be on you Well, thank goodness it didn't. Yeah, I know. So all the people that were left and after you were leaving, how how did they react to you after all that time? do were they with Did everyone realize it was a good choice that you made at the end? or i I would think so. Yeah. I mean, I had lots of verbal confirmation of that by the immediate teams around me. I think it's one of those things as a leader in that you never really, you don't very often get thanked.
00:17:10
Speaker
as a leader. It's quite a thankless job. And um sometimes only feedback you ever get is negative as well. So you have to have a really strong resolve because you're never really going to get, you don't often get that validation, that external validation. um But I always think a tell of how well you've done in a role as a leader is when you leave Yeah.
00:17:29
Speaker
And it's how people react. And you won't know until the moment comes. And the amount of support and love and appreciation that I got when I left was truly heartwarming for me because that's how I knew that I'd done a good job. I was good enough. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:46
Speaker
Isn't it wild that that happens, right? And I know exactly what you mean there too. But also it gives you that little boost into the next role. and you're like, okay, yeah, like that was really hard, but I came out and everyone
The Importance of Inner Calm in Leadership
00:17:59
Speaker
was okay. and In fact, everyone was happy. yeah And yeah, that can be really reassuring.
00:18:05
Speaker
But also so challenging because in those five years, how nice would have been to hear some of that, right, like to keep you going. So as a leader, you've got to dig deep to find that voice that keeps you going through that without the external validation, right? Absolutely, yeah. And I do think, you know, sometimes your allies are hidden as well. um For whatever reason, they're not necessarily going to outwardly say it. but So i used to do 360-degree feedback and I remember one year, and it was going when were going through the restructure, and Someone wrote in their feedback, keep doing what you're doing.
00:18:38
Speaker
And it was completely anonymous. So i had no way of knowing who it was. But, you know, it's little moments like that that you think I'm onto something here. Yeah. We're doing okay. Yeah. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:50
Speaker
You talked about strong resolve in leadership. What does that sound like for you?
00:18:58
Speaker
does it sound like? I think it's quietness when it all gets very loud. around you, like that you know that inner quietness and calm and being able to silence yourself a little bit and maybe others as well and and being able to separate what belongs to you you, know, particularly if you're getting like some negative feedback or whatever it might be, what of that belongs to you and what of that is because of what came before you?
00:19:33
Speaker
and Being able to know where to draw the line on that and being able to know what to take on and what to not take on. And sometimes it's got to shake it off. Yeah.
00:19:44
Speaker
So ah you you talk about, you know, yeah it's like lonely at the top, but it's also noisy. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. it's It's not only noisy from everyone telling you their opinions and they hate and what they think you need to change, but it's noisy on the inside. Am I doing the right thing?
00:20:06
Speaker
Can I do this? It's the noisiest job. So I just love that you say like just quiet, just quiet, you know. Somebody calls, somebody many I know calls it SIP, sit in peace. Sit in peace, right? Yeah, like that.
00:20:19
Speaker
Yeah, i like that. So you didn't get there through lack of self-doubt, right? So it's shaped you a little bit. um Do you see self-doubt as a weakness Or is it something that people can harness?
00:20:37
Speaker
I think if if you want to be in leadership, it comes with the territory. I think if you want to do something brave and something different and something new, it comes to the territory.
00:20:48
Speaker
Because not only will you get self-doubt, but you'll probably get doubt from others around you as well. I don't see it as a weakness at all. I don't know if it shapes me.
00:21:01
Speaker
But I think the experience of working through it and pushing on regardless shaped me. Yeah. Tech resilience piece too, right? it's Yeah.
00:21:13
Speaker
You build confidence through doing. You just got to back yourself. Yeah. Yeah, that's 100% true. Because if you don't, who does, right? No one will. Nobody does. Well, hopefully somebody, your husband will. Yeah, of course. The one that you followed to the UK, hopefully will back you too, right? Yeah.
00:21:31
Speaker
um All right. So now you're back in Perth, you're in a senior leadership role again. And, you know, has it brought new challenges, new self-talk, new doubts, or are you feeling more confident than ever?
00:21:45
Speaker
I'm definitely not feeling more confident than ever. I think um it's a funny one because you come back home, right, and and ah and some things are familiar. But, you know, I was gone for six years, so a lot of things have changed. And particularly in the sector that I work in, a lot has changed. A lot of the people that I used to know have moved on and doing different things. So it felt like starting again, you know. And so i think that's probably been one of the challenges for me is reorientating myself, right?
00:22:14
Speaker
with a bit of who's who in the zoo but also what's going on, what's been happening the last six years, you know, all the things that I've missed out on, all the context that I don't have. I have the history but I don't have the currency.
00:22:27
Speaker
So it's it's catching up on that. Has it felt like starting an executive role but it has it felt like starting in leadership all over again in a way? Yeah.
00:22:43
Speaker
I wouldn't say it feels like starting over because I think you bring the wisdom and the experience from your last job into the next one. And I think that all of the things that I did in that job coming into the next job afterward afterwards has made me realize the breadth of the things that I did, which I didn't really appreciate. I just did what needed to be done.
00:23:09
Speaker
And then I come into an organisation where it's like, oh, no, it's okay. We've got someone that can do that. We've got a team that does that. We go, oh, my God, this is wonderful. Like I've actually got people that I can draw on. This is this is wonderful.
00:23:21
Speaker
And I've got a lot more expertise in the room and, you know, this is fantastic. So I don't feel like it's necessarily starting again. i feel like it's coming home to a different time. And I'm a different person as well.
00:23:36
Speaker
I can attest to that. you You have, you've come back different, but in a good way. And oh well, you've, you've grown in that time, right? So you've evolved and you've grown in that time. So obviously that's the case, right?
00:23:49
Speaker
What are your challenges now? Well, that's a really good question. Your internal ones. Is it still self-doubt? Um, oh, I think, I think there's always a little bit of that. Yeah.
00:24:03
Speaker
Um, because, yeah, because it is it is does feel like a new context that I'm working in again. And I'm i'm having to, I got so used to working in the yeah UK system and now I have to come back and relearn the Australian system and how things work and all the rest of it. So, but I'm getting there. It's a little muscle memory, you know. um I think some of the internal challenges are, yeah, maybe a little bit of self-doubt in, you know,
00:24:29
Speaker
And it's not, can I do this? Because I know I've done it before. it's it think I think it's more about, okay, so what's the best way to do this? And sometimes a little bit of like, just because you did it like that before, Kelly, doesn't mean that you should assume that that's the best way to do it this time. So it's it's like questioning yourself a little bit, if that makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And different different types of, it's a different culture, you know, like and different people and like to be led differently. yeah Was that a shock to the system too, how people like to be led in a different place or is it, did you find it very transferable?
00:25:07
Speaker
I did find it very transferable. One thing that I particularly like about coming home, what I found very refreshing is the level of professionalism that Australians have at work. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah, I always took it for granted. Yeah.
00:25:20
Speaker
Wow, I wasn't expecting to hear that one. Really? Yeah. In what way? Like just in the way they turn up or, you know? Yeah, the way they turn up, the behaviours. Wow. um The way they conduct themselves, the way they treat people.
00:25:36
Speaker
Wow. Well, there's something I didn't know. Yeah. Be proud Aussies. Yay. So only anyone listening overseas, we love you too. Yeah, absolutely. We are in Australia. We love it here.
Entrepreneurial Aspirations and Leadership Realities
00:25:49
Speaker
All right. Well, you know, if, I mean, you've been on i right ah ah quite a journey. are you Do you think you'll ever go back to entrepreneurship? Does it still call you? Oh, I'd love that. Yeah? Yeah, absolutely.
00:26:00
Speaker
I've been wanting to go and have my own businesses since I was in my 20s, you know, and I've had lots of kooky business ideas over the years. My care, my choice was just one that stuck. Yeah. You know, um but I definitely think I'll do it again.
00:26:16
Speaker
I just don't know what it is or what it's going to look like. but Yeah. You think you're an entrepreneur at heart? I think so. It's a different kettle of fish again, right? Like from leadership roles to entrepreneurship. I've been on my entrepreneurship journey now for nine years. i loved the leadership space. I absolutely loved it.
00:26:34
Speaker
But coming into my own business space, it's a whole different world. And I think you either love it or hate it. You know, you're going to sink or swim. So, yeah, i I just love it. What do you love about each of those?
00:26:47
Speaker
I think I love, what I love about being an entrepreneur is your fate is, it feels like it's in your hands, you know, like your success is based on your input, you know, and that's something that you've got control over. yeah um And so I think that's what I find most refreshing about it um because I like, I like working hard. I like getting outcomes and getting results, right? get a lot of satisfaction out of that.
00:27:15
Speaker
I think what I love about leadership, funnily enough, it's the people stuff. And I think that's a bit that you miss from being an entrepreneur, particularly if you're alone working in in your own business sort of thing. um I think the bit I love about leadership is is working with teams, supporting teams, building capacity, building capabilities.
00:27:35
Speaker
You know, that stuff really ah inspires me. Yeah. Got to build a business that employs people. Well, this is it. That's the dream, isn't it? That's the dream. Yeah. That's always been my dream to be able to grow big enough that I'm employing loads of people and, yeah, that would be amazing. So getting there slowly but surely. Good.
00:27:56
Speaker
Okay. So tips for emerging leaders, you know, who are maybe going through some of that self-doubt or thinking about, you know, Thinking about a career where they want to be in senior leadership roles, who have self-doubt, who have um that self-talk that might be telling them why me, other people are better than me. Like any tips at all around, you know, for emerging leaders wanting to step into leadership.
00:28:25
Speaker
Yeah, so I had to think about this today and I made some notes. so I think if you want to step into this space, you almost have to accept that that self-doubt and that imposter syndrome is inevitable.
00:28:37
Speaker
So be prepared for it. Think about it before it happens and think about how you might deal with it, like expect it. um I think that might help people prepare. i think the other thing as well is there's also an aspect of knowing it's going to come and knowing you have to sit with it.
00:28:52
Speaker
and being able to tolerate the uncomfortableness of it. um The other thing i I sort of reflected on was sometimes it's like it's almost like that fakety make it bit you know if if you stay outwardly confident People will trust what you're saying and you will inspire people.
00:29:14
Speaker
No one knows what's going on inside your head, right? No one can read your mind. So it's only you that knows that. So if you just project that confidence, things will actually happen. um i think if if you project the fact that you have doubt or fear, it's a self-licking lollipop, isn't it? would It's not going to result in the outcome that you want.
00:29:35
Speaker
um So I think that's that's always been a bit of a mindset that I've had just... Figure it out as you go because you will.
00:29:46
Speaker
And also, hot tip, most leaders are doing that. Literally. Most business owners are doing it. hundred percent sorry um A lot of the times in your business life, you deal with novel situations, you know, that things that haven't happened before. Maybe things similar might have, but this exact situation has never happened before and will never happen again. So in that respect, everything's novel.
00:30:09
Speaker
You've just got to be able to roll with it. 100%. Yeah, um and then I think as well it's, you know, I think when it comes to making difficult decisions and being in leadership, you know, do your research, get your information, b practical about and pragmatic about things, but then back yourself as well.
00:30:30
Speaker
you know, see youve you've done the work, if you've done the thinking and you believe that's that's the best thing to do, back yourself. Because what's the worst thing that's going happen? It doesn't go right and you learn from it. And you learn from it, exactly. yeah Yeah. That was a huge lesson for me. It's like, you know, in my early leadership years, there was this real fear of failing and, you know, not failing itself but failing in front of others. And then I thought, what's the worst thing that can happen out of that is actually – I'm going to learn a lesson and the next time it will be 100% better. But you've got to let go of that perfectionism or feeling like as a leader that you need to be switched on all the time and know all the answers. And when you let go of that, things actually flow a bit more, don't they?
00:31:13
Speaker
And a lot of the time, there's probably smarter people in the room than you. 100%. There's always, or yes you know somebody who knows somebody who's smarter than you. Yeah, exactly. So I think, you know, being like being curious and that vulnerability piece I think is really important. And um one of the things, one of the mantras I had for myself when I had my own business was done is better than perfect. You know, doesn't matter if you're not perfect, you're out there in the world, you're putting it out there and you're doing something.
00:31:44
Speaker
100%. you learn and people give you feedback. Yeah. And then they do you make changes. Yeah. And that's what you do, right? Give it. Yeah. That Friends episode. Yeah. That Friends episode.
00:31:55
Speaker
No, we're moving the couch. Ever.
00:31:59
Speaker
Amazing. I mean, I want to touch on what you said earlier too around, you know, fake it till you make it and being confident and showing people confidence. People start to trust you. How do you balance that personally with also authenticity and, you know, also not lying that if you don't know something, you don't know something. So where's the balance there for you? Yeah, that's a really good question.
00:32:22
Speaker
I think it's, you know, when you have to be honest about what you don't know. I mean, there's ethics that come into these things all the time. um I think it's just being honest about what you don't know but being confident that you can I'll find that information out or I'll go and speak to someone we'll figure this out yeah you know um look I don't have all the answers right now but together we'll sort it it'll be fine yeah and it's just it's having that confident response that people go it's Somebody's onto it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:52
Speaker
You're right. And i I'm glad you said that because I think that sometimes the message of fake it till you make it can be misinterpreted by you've got to pretend you know everything. And I love that you're like, actually, it's not pretending you know everything. It's being honest about, i don't know the answer here, but we're going to find out. And this is what I need you to do. And this is what I'm going to do. And then people feel like it's in control. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:12
Speaker
Yeah. Even though in your mind you feel very out of control because you don't know the answer. That's it. I think as well, it's like it's steadying the ship, you know, it's like, it's going to be okay. We're going to sort this out. We'll figure it out. We'll get it sorted. Yeah. People go, oh, okay. All right. I mean, you don't know that. Yeah.
00:33:29
Speaker
you're going to try though. Absolutely. Yeah. And if you don't, you can say, i i did try and these are things I did and now this is what I'm going to do next, right? So it's always about knowing what you're going to try next and and showing that, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:43
Speaker
Wow.
Closing Insights on Leadership and Self-Belief
00:33:45
Speaker
Well, you've had a super inspiring journey. I love that you're back. I'm happy that you're back because I think Perth deserves you And I'm so glad that you're still working this place. And I look forward to seeing what new ideas you pop up. And knowing you, you're going to be working a senior leadership role and starting your own business and juggling all sorts of things and doing amazing jobs. So I look forward to hearing more of that. And maybe when you start your own business one day, I'll bring you back on the podcast and we can talk about that. I'd love that.
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, that'd be really, really good. But for those listening, if they want to get in contact with you, if they feel inspired by you or want to know you, if they want work in the same sector as you, how can they get in touch with you? Probably the best thing is through LinkedIn. Yep. Yep. Just look me up on LinkedIn. I'll add the links to the podcast to Kelly. um Yeah. Otherwise, thank you so much you for joining us. Always a pleasure. So, yeah, what I got out of today, starting at the top doesn't mean you don't have any skills. And sometimes you're going to be making decisions as a leader that aren't the most popular decisions, but you've got to stand by
00:34:49
Speaker
your convictions and back yourself as Kelly says because that second voice that's saying nope I believe in the decisions I'm making here is what's going to get you through and it needs to be a little bit louder than the self-doubt and a little bit louder than all the noise you hear around you when you're a leader um so thank you again and we will see you next time on the second voice podcast take care bye