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High Performance Is Quietly Rewiring Your Brain with Hanna Curman
7 Plays38 minutes ago
You don’t lose your edge under pressure—you lose access to it.
The problem is, most leaders don’t realise the moment it happens.
And by then, the decisions are already made.
My guest is Hanna Curman—international speaker, Founder of BrainShift (the new transformation logic), certified in brain-based coaching, and author on leadership and mental health. She helps executives lead transformation from the nervous system up
Connect with Hanna: https://hannacurman.se/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannacurman/
https://www.instagram.com/brainshiftleadership/
At The Second Voice, we explore the inner conversations leaders rarely say out loud.
If this episode resonated, it is likely because the second voice is active in your leadership too.
Hosted by Luisa Hogan, leadership resilience strategist and founder of Vermelho Consulting.
Luisa works with founders, executives, and senior leaders who carry real responsibility and want to lead with steadiness, clarity, and self-trust under pressure.
Her work focuses on nervous system regulation, leadership identity, and the inner dialogue that shapes how leaders show up when things are hard.
Work With Luisa
If this episode sparked reflection, here are ways to go deeper:
• Leadership resilience workshops and advisory
• Keynotes and curated live experiences
• The Steady Leadership framework and private sessions
Learn more at: vermelho.com.au
Stay Connected
Follow along and join the conversation:
• Instagram: @thesecondvoicepodcast
• Instagram: @luisahoganhq
Subscribe, rate, and review The Second Voice to help more leaders find these conversations.
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Transcript
Introduction to Second Voice Podcast
00:00:01
Luisa Hogan
You don't lose your edge under pressure. You lose access to it. The problem is most leaders don't realize that the moment it happens and by then their decisions are already made.
00:00:14
Luisa Hogan
Welcome back to the Second Voice Podcast, where we unover uncover the conversations that leaders don't have out loud. I'm Louisa Hogan, your host, and today we're exploring what really happens inside the mind of high performers under pressure, and why the voice that you trust most might not actually be you.
Meet Hannah Kerman: Speaker and Founder
00:00:34
Luisa Hogan
My guest today is the lovely Hannah Kerman. She's an international speaker, founder of Brain Shift, the new transformation logic, a certified in brain-based coaching and author on leadership and mental health.
00:00:47
Luisa Hogan
And she helps executives lead transformation from the nervous system up. And I know we're in for a treat of a conversation today, Hannah, because I have loved learning about you and reading about you. I'm super interested in your work because it overlaps a lot with the work that I do. So welcome to the second voice today. I'm so pleased to have you here.
00:01:06
Hanna curman
And I'm so happy to be with you here, Louisa.
00:01:09
Luisa Hogan
Lovely. please so Well, first things first, tell us a little bit about you. Let our listeners know what's the work that you do? What's the journey that you've taken to get to where you are today?
Career Highlights: Volvo and Global Travel
00:01:23
Hanna curman
ah Well, first of all, i live in Sweden, up in the northern part of of our world. And i have i usually say that I've been fostered by the corporate world because I've been i've been working within the Volvo Group for more than 20 years. It was more or less 24
00:01:40
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:01:41
Hanna curman
And when I say fostered, i mean, when you are in a workplace, you that really shapes you. And it has shaped me a lot. and ah And it has been given me the opportunity to travel around the world.
00:01:53
Hanna curman
And I think that is that sense says quite a lot of me because i love fostering. being out in the world and meet people from different cultures. um I love to go to the backyard um places to grab the the local stuff to eat and and see what's going on and so on so So that is a little bit who I am.
Leaving Corporate for Brain Shift
00:02:15
Hanna curman
um a year ago, a little bit more than a year ago, i did say goodbye to the corporate world.
00:02:22
Hanna curman
um I wanted, it it has been an inner drive for me for many, many years. I took the first step in 2009. Then I started ah a side business. And that is also when I released a book. It's in Swedish. And it's called it's called Why do we look up to the ki And that is really the connection between leadership and mental health.
00:02:47
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:02:47
Luisa Hogan
I'd
00:02:47
Hanna curman
And I will tell you a little bit more about the reason behind that book as well later on, I guess.
00:02:50
Luisa Hogan
love to.
00:02:54
Hanna curman
um but But since then, i have had this kind of urge to, i want to do something outside the corporate world as well. So a year ago, i was safe enough to take my...
00:03:09
Hanna curman
24 years and say goodbye and I remember the last day um i had just had a meeting, a workshop with the top management in one of our main factories here in in Sweden. And so I was really on the on the last day i was doing whatever or the things that I loved. And now since then um i have been gathering everything together.
00:03:38
Hanna curman
and being able to really do it my way. i mean, when you are in a corporate world, you always have their political perspectives and their views and targets and visions that you need to kind of Yeah, be be be ah aware of and and relate to. And sometimes, even though, usually I do have the same view ah have the same view, but sometimes I feel that I would like to have done it in this way.
00:04:08
Hanna curman
And that is what I can do now, right?
00:04:11
Luisa Hogan
freedom.
00:04:12
Hanna curman
Yeah, it is freedom. It is freedom. and And it gives so much. Yeah, I want to do this. i want to explore this and I want to put this together. So that is what I've done. And and you said that I'm the founder of Brainshift and that is the program that I have put together where I'm working with the human perspective of a change, a transformation, to together with the structural part.
00:04:35
Hanna curman
and and get them together. i usually talk about it like a s zipper. And many organizations, they think that, okay, so let's take one but one side of the zipper and work with that.
00:04:47
Hanna curman
And then we take the other part of the zipper and then we work with that.
00:04:48
Luisa Hogan
if
00:04:51
Hanna curman
But how the heck are you going to close the zipper then? So that is really really what this work is about, to get the zipper and the teeth
00:04:57
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:05:01
Hanna curman
to be able to kind to get together and be strong together. so yeah.
00:05:05
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:05:07
Hanna curman
of
00:05:07
Luisa Hogan
I really like that analogy of the zipper because I've never thought of it that way, but it's so true. It's like, it
A Life-Changing Breakdown: 20 Years Ago
00:05:12
Luisa Hogan
makes so much sense, right? So wonderful.
00:05:13
Hanna curman
Yeah, it is.
00:05:14
Hanna curman
It is. Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:16
Luisa Hogan
So, I mean, you've had a stellar career then, you know, that's a long career in corporate and, you know, for ah for a top company too, not not, you know, a small company.
00:05:21
Hanna curman
hmm.
00:05:24
Hanna curman
Mm hmm.
00:05:25
Luisa Hogan
Was there ever a time in that where you realized, you know, i mean, you you said that you've left over a period of time, but was there a defining moment for you where you felt like I'm not functioning well here, i need to go?
00:05:40
Hanna curman
It has been several times during those 24 years.
00:05:42
Luisa Hogan
Yeah,
00:05:43
Hanna curman
But I can take you back 20 years from now.
00:05:44
Luisa Hogan
yeah.
00:05:49
Hanna curman
And I remember it as it was yesterday. And at that time, I was the process manager for for a global process. And I took local things to to make it global. And I just loved what I was doing. And i really say loved because i I, just as I said, I was traveling the around around the world. I had influence. I was free to do whatever I wanted and and all those things. And and I had this um thought, this this thing that i wanted to do. and I wanted to get my manager's um view on it and and his...
00:06:30
Hanna curman
Yeah, his his um to be present with with me. So booked this meeting and I was preparing for this meeting. And it was a Monday morning in December and Monday morning in December in Sweden.
00:06:43
Hanna curman
It's dark, it's cold, it's gray. So i I had really had to pump up myself to be on the edge for this meeting.
00:06:52
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:06:52
Hanna curman
So I entered the room and there were some other topics on the agenda. And then it was time for me. And just as I was going to start to explain my topic, he stood up and so that said that I don't have time more or I don't have more time.
00:07:10
Luisa Hogan
Wow. Heartbreaking.
00:07:11
Hanna curman
It was like,
00:07:13
Hanna curman
It was really heartbreaking. It was like everything inside me has teared up and I just grabbed my things and rushed out in my car. I was sitting there and my hands were just shaking and my tears were flooding down the the cheeks.
00:07:29
Hanna curman
And I went home and and that was the starting point of a six months breakdown.
00:07:36
Hanna curman
But that is also what when I started to explore what happened, what happened in that room.
00:07:46
Hanna curman
What happened with me and what happened with the other ones in that room? Because it was not just me and my manager, it was the full management team.
00:07:55
Hanna curman
So even though that was a situation that I wish no one else needed to go through. and I know many of us have been there in different situations.
00:08:07
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:08:09
Hanna curman
That did learn and teach me a lot of things as well. And as I took it as a starting point to to shift the way that I acted, reacted.
00:08:23
Hanna curman
um And that has really supported me in other areas in my care career as well.
00:08:31
Luisa Hogan
I mean, I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm sorry about the subsequent breakdown, but at the same time, it's, you know, it's led you to where you are today and you're helping people, um you know, go through their own their own journeys in that. i mean, do you, in the work that you do, work with high performers? Do you work with people who are in ah like working under pressure but still outwardly performing? Is that the work that you do?
00:08:56
Hanna curman
Yeah, that is the
Coaching High Performers: Pressure and Presence
00:08:57
Hanna curman
work that I do. And I do it in one to one coaching. And I also do it with management teams.
00:09:03
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:09:05
Hanna curman
and And what I can see is is that when you gather together and you really start to talk about those things, that is when it also starts to happen.
00:09:17
Hanna curman
um So, yeah, I work with one-on-one coaching and and also together with management teams to explore the what going back to this room and as I said what happened in that room what happened with me and what happened with the other ones um to actually understand the mechanism behind it and to be more yeah to to be more steady and to be more present in the moment.
00:09:52
Luisa Hogan
Because, yeah, you you've talked to me, i mean, before we started recording, we were talking about presence in leadership and presence in, um you know, presence under pressure.
00:09:55
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:09:57
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:10:01
Luisa Hogan
but when When do you find with your clients that pressure overrides their system so that they're reacting instead of responding and they're reacting to their fears and to their worries and to the pressure rather than slowing down, being present and responding? like Tell me more about that work and what you see and how you help them through that.
00:10:23
Hanna curman
Yeah, and sorry by laughing here, but but but isn't that as a natural state for all high high achievers?
00:10:31
Luisa Hogan
hundred percent. Yeah. It's definitely in the work that I do too, right? and you know, I'm always fascinated to hear how other people solve this problem. And, ah you know, i i know the work that I do, but I'd love to know how you approach it.
00:10:44
Hanna curman
Yeah,
00:10:44
Luisa Hogan
I i want to know more about the presence work that you're doing.
00:10:47
Hanna curman
yeah. yeah and And I have ah something that I call the clarity chain.
00:10:52
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:10:53
Hanna curman
where we are talking about Spot, Decode, Direct. So first of all, um I mean, reactions. Let's go back to to this with why I'm laughing a little bit when you're asking, do I see this?
00:11:07
Hanna curman
Yes, of course I do. Everywhere, because we are there. And and the more pressure that we are getting them or or having on us, the more squeezed we feel, right?
00:11:19
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:11:19
Hanna curman
And when we get squeezed, we are just reacting, right?
00:11:23
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:11:24
Hanna curman
instead of acting and and I usually say this that emotions precede logic every single time we need to understand that and we need to understand even though most of us I do believe have heard it that our brain is wired to keep us alive and just by that saying that what does it mean to be kept ah ah to stay alive what's the easiest way to stay alive
00:11:30
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:11:54
Luisa Hogan
To tell you everything is a threat. Yeah.
00:11:54
Hanna curman
It is.
00:11:56
Hanna curman
Yeah, it is, isn't
Fear, Nervous System, and Calmness
00:11:58
Hanna curman
it?
00:11:58
Luisa Hogan
yeah
00:11:59
Hanna curman
And that is what we are going around and look for threats all the time.
00:12:01
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:12:04
Hanna curman
So just understanding that, first of all, to understand that, because I see too many people that ah are are carrying a lot of guilt and shame and carry around a lot of guilt and shame. I mean, it's a heavy burden.
00:12:24
Luisa Hogan
who
00:12:25
Hanna curman
So first, yeah.
00:12:25
Luisa Hogan
And, and fear and like the guilt and shame, what's the root of that fear, fear of not being perfect, fear of being seen as wrong or being seen as having done something wrong.
00:12:27
Hanna curman
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:30
Hanna curman
Yeah. yeah
00:12:41
Luisa Hogan
All of it comes down to fear. And when we can tackle fear, that internal fear and face the fear and remain calm and steady through it and present through it, then you start to see a shift, right?
00:12:44
Hanna curman
bicom' not
00:12:52
Hanna curman
yeah
00:12:53
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:12:54
Hanna curman
Yeah, but but but let's just stick to that a little bit. I mean, it's natural that we are scared and and and that it comes down to fear. Because what happens if we are not wanted anymore?
00:13:08
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:13:08
Hanna curman
Just go back to that situation that I just spoke or gave you when I was entering the room and then i was rushing out.
00:13:14
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:13:17
Hanna curman
My full body as was just screaming, I'm not wanted.
00:13:20
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:13:22
Hanna curman
i um i um I don't have skills enough, I'm not expected here, I'm not listened to, I'm not worthy. That is what my body reaction was.
00:13:35
Hanna curman
And if I wasn't...
00:13:35
Luisa Hogan
And it's very convincing.
00:13:38
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:13:39
Hanna curman
And if I'm not wanted or or and so on, and I'm not part of the pack, then I'm extremely by it for the ones that wants to kill me.
00:13:53
Hanna curman
so our reactions are there. so that is actually the starting point in everything I do. First of all, just to get this, to understand whatever you are doing right now and whatever you are feeling now, that is exactly what you're supposed to do.
00:14:02
Luisa Hogan
Wonderful.
00:14:15
Hanna curman
based on where you are and based on your experiences and ah based on your ancestors experience because we do inherit.
00:14:26
Hanna curman
We inherit, we know by fact now. I'm sure you have read those researches as well but we know by fact now that we do, that our genes remember. They remember what happened to our ancestors more or less seven generations back.
00:14:42
Hanna curman
But is that really a truth to- today?
00:14:46
Luisa Hogan
No. Yeah.
00:14:47
Luisa Hogan
It's fascinating research that actually, um, how, how we remember that.
00:14:47
Hanna curman
No.
00:14:49
Hanna curman
It is.
00:14:52
Luisa Hogan
And then it becomes part of your nervous system and you, a huge part of leadership as i know, that you know, is about regulating your nervous system through that.
00:15:03
Luisa Hogan
Because as you say, our nervous system is there to keep us safe and to keep us alive, but we don't have to listen to it. We can control it more easily than we think.
00:15:13
Luisa Hogan
Right.
00:15:14
Hanna curman
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:14
Luisa Hogan
So, I mean, and I love that you've lived this experience and you've lived that and you became aware of how that shift in your nervous system and the self-talk that you had that was telling you that you weren't wanted.
00:15:26
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:15:27
Luisa Hogan
Tell me what happened after that. So you said that it was six months and then you had, you know, ah came to a big breakdown. Were there more situations like that that fed that? What was going on internally for you to feed that so that you had that big breakdown after that?
00:15:44
Hanna curman
Well, before that breakdown, after that breakdown, I came back and I was much more steady and and aware of my of myself, my inner reactions and signals and so on.
00:15:59
Hanna curman
And we can come back to that as well. But but also one thing that um was before this, and and as I said, i was I was in the perfect fit for but for um for me, and the perfect position for me.
00:16:00
Luisa Hogan
Okay. Hmm.
00:16:14
Hanna curman
But at the same time, I was extremely lonely. I was based in Gothenburg in Sweden, but my um my my responsibility spread all around the globe.
00:16:27
Hanna curman
I had an extreme freedom, meaning that no one really... they they they didn't They didn't look for me when I was not in the office because they they just took for granted that I was out traveling somewhere.
00:16:43
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:16:43
Hanna curman
and In Sweden, I'm coming back to Sweden, and some some traditions that we have in Sweden, on Friday afternoon we always have this fika.
00:16:54
Hanna curman
fique Swedish fika, that is when we are drinking coffee, we are having a home-baked cake and we gather together with the team that we work together with. And it's a lovely tradition. And my office was just by the coffee machine.
00:17:11
Hanna curman
Meaning that every Friday afternoon I could hear everyone going to the coffee machine and then gathering and in their teams and having this fika. But I was not part.
00:17:22
Hanna curman
Because I did not belong to any team.
00:17:23
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:17:26
Hanna curman
So what I saw myself doing was that because I was i was the one that that was occupied and and I was the one that that was really out there and and was needed. So I always booked meetings on Friday afternoon because that made me feel that I had the control.
00:17:50
Hanna curman
Of course, that was not true.
00:17:50
Luisa Hogan
yeah
00:17:53
Hanna curman
That was just escaping from the reality. my reality but it was not the truth i was avoiding it but the truth was that when i when i came back from my six months and i had done all this work in the work with myself and i did actually go to my colleagues because it was dear colleagues of men mine and friends and i said hey you know i actually feel a little bit lonely
00:18:01
Luisa Hogan
and was avoiding it.
00:18:22
Hanna curman
and you Well, but you are you are welcome to any of our feces. Of course you should be belong here. We thought that you were, yeah.
00:18:32
Luisa Hogan
It's funny how the stories we tell ourselves, right?
00:18:35
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:18:35
Luisa Hogan
And that says this is a big part of that inner voice. you know We tell ourselves stories and then those stories become facts in our mind, but they're not the facts.
00:18:41
Hanna curman
Mm.
00:18:45
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:18:46
Luisa Hogan
They're just our thoughts. And I'll often say that to my clients, you know, your thoughts aren't facts. And it takes them a long time to understand what that means because like it it has to be a fact. I'm thinking it, therefore it is a fact.
00:18:57
Luisa Hogan
But it's not. Your thoughts are not facts. Your thoughts are just thoughts.
00:19:01
Luisa Hogan
And, you know, you convinced yourself that you didn't belong. um But meanwhile, nobody else agreed with you. Isn't that fascinating?
00:19:01
Hanna curman
yeah Yeah, it is.
00:19:10
Hanna curman
It is.
00:19:10
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:19:11
Hanna curman
And that is really the second part in my in my clarity chain, the one that when when I'm talking about decode.
00:19:18
Luisa Hogan
nothing
00:19:18
Hanna curman
First of all, spot your triggers and spot your signals. What is it that I'm feeling?
00:19:24
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:19:24
Hanna curman
And then after that, decode, okay, where what does this come from? Is it a reality?
00:19:29
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:19:32
Hanna curman
Of course, the feeling is a reality, but is it a reality now or does it belong to something else?
00:19:34
Luisa Hogan
Correct. Yeah.
00:19:40
Hanna curman
Because after that, you come to the third part, direct, okay.
00:19:44
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:19:45
Hanna curman
So how, where do I want to direct this? Do I want to keep it? Because of course it can be a good feeling as well and a good trigger and a good feel signal for us. But if it's not, then I should direct it and throw it out the window or burn it up or or whatever. and And just doing that physically, writing a note and burning that note, just take it away.
00:20:10
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:20:11
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:20:11
Luisa Hogan
I love that. It's a, you know, does this serve me? No, get rid of it. And I like that you use that symbolic burn it.
00:20:16
Hanna curman
written
00:20:18
Luisa Hogan
You know, I've done that before.
00:20:19
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:20:20
Luisa Hogan
It's actually really, really useful, isn't it? You just release this, you release the energy that's attached to it too, right?
00:20:22
Hanna curman
It is.
00:20:26
Hanna curman
Yeah. Yeah, it's so powerful.
00:20:27
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:20:28
Hanna curman
It's so powerful. and and And I think that we can do it in so many different aspects in our lives.
00:20:29
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:20:33
Hanna curman
We can do it in in we can do it together as a management team as well. Do we want to have it like this?
00:20:38
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:20:39
Hanna curman
No, we don't. Okay, so let's burn it.
00:20:42
Luisa Hogan
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:44
Hanna curman
let's do Let's start from a fresh page.
00:20:48
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:20:48
Hanna curman
Yeah, erase it.
00:20:49
Luisa Hogan
And is that what took you on writing your book?
Writing Inspired by Personal and Research Patterns
00:20:53
Luisa Hogan
So you mentioned earlier that you wrote a book. Is is this part of the journey that got you to writing that book? Tell me more about your book and, and you know, what what led you there?
00:21:03
Hanna curman
It was really those six months when I did this inner in the study with myself and I did ah a lot of research, reading a lot of research.
00:21:08
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:21:12
Hanna curman
I also did did some deep dive interviews with other people that are were in the same situation and so on. And I could see some patterns. So those patterns, I i wrote this book.
00:21:24
Hanna curman
It's a very small book and it's it's very easy to read it. You can probably read it in just five hours or something like that. it It was supposed or it is supposed to be like um support to a speech, because I also created a speech, a two-hour speech connected to this.
00:21:43
Hanna curman
where to support us to understand what is it that is true and not true in different chapters. So this is, I mean, it's 20 years ago. So the the book was released 2009.
00:21:58
Hanna curman
And I do want to do an upgrade on that one because some some parts are still valid and some parts are overdue. So, yeah, let's see when the next part or the next book is coming out.
00:22:14
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:22:15
Luisa Hogan
and tell me a little bit about because I know you've got a personal journey too we've discussed it a little bit and I've read in your in your profile too you you know you talk about your journey about having a child at 47 was it
00:22:21
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:22:30
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:22:30
Luisa Hogan
which is incredible, by the way.
00:22:32
Hanna curman
is yeah
00:22:32
Luisa Hogan
Tell me more about that journey. You know yeah and you were doing this alongside, it was this around the same time as all the the work that you were going through? Because that would have added pressure to your life too.
00:22:42
Luisa Hogan
Tell me more about that.
00:22:44
Hanna curman
No, this this was actually 10 years later.
00:22:47
Luisa Hogan
Okay, yep.
00:22:48
Hanna curman
yeah So that part was 2006 and then my next personal crush. and And I would say that the thing that happened in 2006, that was more connected to me as a person and how I how i was pushing myself to be a high achiever and and didn't really understand the the the way of of acting and reacting there.
00:23:00
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm. know
00:23:11
Hanna curman
But what happened to me in 2011, 2012, that was really connected to my personal life. I got a divorce, which was a very heavy divorce that impacted my two daughters. They were then 14 and 17. It impacted them very heavily. And of of course, also myself, extremely heavy. And... um One of my daughters daughters, she didn't want to live anymore. She tried to take her life more than once.
00:23:44
Luisa Hogan
Thank
00:23:45
Hanna curman
And being, i was then the only parent because their father left us at that point. um and being the only mother trying to hold together everything and also my oldest daughter she was she was in a high school um abroad or not abroad but in another city so taking care of her and taking care of this very unstable child um she did she couldn't go to school and she didn't want to live and all those things and then at the same time I met my spouse who who I now live together with and eventually got this this child at age of 47 so that was what I would some like to say just
00:24:36
Hanna curman
It's a long story and maybe we can do an episode just about this.
00:24:39
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:24:40
Hanna curman
But but what really made me go through that very deep personal fresh was that I already had the tools and awareness.
00:24:52
Hanna curman
I could, of course, I felt the signals. Of course, I was devastated about everything that happened. But I could also put myself on the side and look at it from the outside.
00:25:07
Hanna curman
And I wouldn't have been able to do that if I did not have those tools. And that is one of the reasons that i I really, really, really want to work with people connected to this, because I know that there are too many of us that will have situations in their lives, personally or professionally, when just understanding
00:25:12
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:25:23
Luisa Hogan
Mm hmm.
00:25:35
Hanna curman
how our human biology are driving us or are impacting us. That makes a big difference.
00:25:44
Luisa Hogan
Makes a huge difference. And
The Hidden Struggles of High Achievers
00:25:46
Luisa Hogan
you're so right.
00:25:46
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:25:46
Luisa Hogan
You know, and you know high performers, particularly, i find in the work that I do, they go to work and nobody knows the inner battles that they're having.
00:25:56
Luisa Hogan
And they are going through things like you've gone through. going through a lot of upheaval at home and they come to work and they continue to perform.
00:26:00
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:26:04
Luisa Hogan
And I call it performative strength.
00:26:05
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:26:07
Luisa Hogan
They show everybody how strong they are outwardly and internally they're dying inside.
00:26:11
Hanna curman
Yeah. Yeah.
00:26:14
Luisa Hogan
You know, they they they are struggling. And eventually that leads to burnout and you hear all the stories about burnout But there are some high performers who will perform at that level for years and years and years and years.
00:26:17
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:26:28
Luisa Hogan
And they think that that's what they need to do to continue. And then they just become more and more reactive, more and more reactive. And I know that you you see that, right?
00:26:34
Hanna curman
True. yeah and
00:26:36
Luisa Hogan
And I think the work that you're doing is so important because we need to show people that it's okay and normal to go through these upheavals and
00:26:39
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:26:47
Luisa Hogan
there are ways that you can get through it.
00:26:48
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:26:49
Luisa Hogan
It's not going to make the problem go away, but it certainly can make it a lot more, and a lot easier to go through in terms of making decisions from a clear and calm paces place rather than being reactive all the time.
00:26:50
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:26:59
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:27:03
Hanna curman
Yeah.
Ocean Metaphor: Diving into Psychological Safety
00:27:05
Hanna curman
Yeah, we are talking a lot about psychological safety and and and I am happy to see that that is coming into the business world.
00:27:09
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:27:13
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:27:13
Hanna curman
What I do believe though, and now I'm a little bit skeptic, is that Let's take a metaphor and let's let's see if there's a swimming swimming pool.
00:27:25
Hanna curman
And what we what I usually see when we are talking about and psychological safety is that we learn to swim up on the surface and we learn all those different techniques.
00:27:25
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:27:39
Hanna curman
But what about diving down, diving down deep?
00:27:41
Luisa Hogan
yeah
00:27:43
Hanna curman
That is what I want to want everyone to learn a little bit more about. And even more, what I what i do, and this is for the ones that really are willing to go with me out in the ocean, to be able to swim and take the metaphor out in the ocean, to be able to swim with the currents, with the wind,
00:28:09
Hanna curman
with the waves, with the sharks, maybe.
00:28:11
Luisa Hogan
And the shocks. Yeah. yeah
00:28:14
Hanna curman
Right?
00:28:15
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:28:15
Hanna curman
You never know what happens. And when you are there and you are swimming outdoors, and I do scuba dive, so I know what I'm talking about there as well.
00:28:23
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:28:24
Hanna curman
and And what you really need to do when you are scuba diving and swimming out in the ocean, you need to be able to control yourself and you need to be able to be present.
00:28:35
Hanna curman
It's the same thing.
00:28:35
Luisa Hogan
So true.
00:28:37
Hanna curman
It's the same thing with leadership.
00:28:39
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:28:40
Hanna curman
I mean, it's easy peasy to be a leader in an organization that is only, you know, we are we are walking around and we are polite to each other and everything is smooth.
00:28:54
Hanna curman
But nothing will really happen. And in this era that we are in now, mm-mm. If you don't dare to go down, at least die down in the in the swimming pool, in the indoor pool.
00:29:07
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:29:08
Hanna curman
That is the least you need to be able to
00:29:09
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:29:11
Hanna curman
um
00:29:11
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:29:12
Hanna curman
But the ones that actually dare to go out and and learn to swim out in the ocean with the sharks, they are the ones that will be able to control the future organizations.
00:29:22
Luisa Hogan
100%. love that metaphor. I'm stealing that in Australia. So I'm spreading your metaphor in Australia.
00:29:27
Hanna curman
Yeah, you're welcome.
00:29:28
Luisa Hogan
yeah
00:29:28
Hanna curman
You're welcome, Jesus.
00:29:29
Luisa Hogan
to you know, I i use ah i use ah a different metaphor, but it's similar, right, where I talk about a lighthouse and a lighthouse is standing in the storm and there's a raging storm around it and there's waves and crashing wind and rain.
00:29:37
Hanna curman
Hmm.
00:29:43
Luisa Hogan
And the lighthouse doesn't stay standing because it resists the storm. It stays standing because it doesn't let the storm inside.
00:29:51
Hanna curman
m
00:29:51
Luisa Hogan
And that's what staying calm in the storm is, right? You're not there fighting it and pretending like everything's okay. You're allowing the storm to stay out and stay calm on the inside and be the light for everybody else, right?
00:30:04
Luisa Hogan
So, um yeah, I love your ocean metaphor too.
00:30:04
Hanna curman
man and
00:30:08
Luisa Hogan
it's it just It's got that same feeling, right, of, you know, finding the calm in that in that situation.
00:30:08
Hanna curman
Yeah.
00:30:10
Hanna curman
Yeah. yeah Yeah.
00:30:14
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:30:15
Hanna curman
yeah My neck is yours. ha We do.
00:30:17
Luisa Hogan
ah you We'll trade, we'll trade. i love it.
00:30:19
Hanna curman
We do. That's right. Perfect.
00:30:22
Luisa Hogan
um
Practical Exercises for Calm and Presence
00:30:23
Hanna curman
Right. Yeah.
00:30:23
Luisa Hogan
and Tell me, you know, for those people who are listening who might be high performers,
00:30:27
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm.
00:30:28
Luisa Hogan
If they're in a high stakes moment or in, you know, going into difficult conversations, going into boardrooms where they have to have a difficult decision, what is the most practical way that they can interrupt that override that's telling them to be reactive and help them come back to clarity and calm that you are talking about?
00:30:50
Hanna curman
There's one thing that overrides everything else, and that is your breathing.
00:30:56
Hanna curman
um Before we recorded today, started our recording today, I did my breathing in for three, hold it a little bit, and then out for six.
00:31:07
Hanna curman
It calms.
00:31:07
Luisa Hogan
You and I were doing the same breathing exercise.
00:31:09
Hanna curman
We are. We are. So we'll do so much things together. We're at the same time. That's great.
00:31:15
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:31:15
Hanna curman
But it's so powerful and it's for free.
00:31:16
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:31:19
Luisa Hogan
Yes.
00:31:20
Hanna curman
It is really powerful and for free. and And no one even needs to see and notice just what you are doing. And if they notice, thank God, they might they might just do the same.
00:31:33
Hanna curman
They feel that, ah, you are doing that exercise, then I do this.
00:31:34
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:31:36
Hanna curman
I actually have started to do it with my leadership teams and my one-to-one coaching. We always have a reset at the beginning, depending on what's happening before, but some kind of reset to make sure that we are in the room.
00:31:53
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:31:53
Hanna curman
So so that that is the breathing exercise. You can't think out yourself. You can't think out of your thoughts. But you can support your your nervous system to calm down by muscle tension, by breathing exercises. And also, I'm standing up.
00:32:17
Hanna curman
There is a reason for me always to stand up. And and that not only that it keeps me my my energy level up, but it also supports my testosterone in my body.
00:32:30
Luisa Hogan
Amazing.
00:32:30
Hanna curman
And testosterone gives us a feeling of power and and calmness and and confidence.
00:32:37
Luisa Hogan
amazing sing
00:32:41
Hanna curman
And I think that is one of the things... just going back to this with psychological safety and and being grounded and all those things. If you own your value and feel confident about yourself and who you are, you can be that lighthouse.
00:33:01
Luisa Hogan
Yeah. You can be swimming with the sharks and not be panicking.
00:33:06
Hanna curman
Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:06
Luisa Hogan
Yeah. Amazing.
00:33:08
Hanna curman
and
00:33:09
Luisa Hogan
So tell me more, yubi you you mentioned earlier you were doing ah before before we started recording, you were talking about doing a webinar about being present in leadership.
00:33:16
Hanna curman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:33:17
Luisa Hogan
Tell me more about that because I think that's really relevant in today's world where we've got more and more speed going on with AI. i think people are less present now than they've ever been before because of AI.
00:33:30
Luisa Hogan
People are and unable to think without tapping everything into AI. And I think presence is such an important topic today. So tell me more about your webinar and how can people connect with you, join in on that? is Are they able to join or what other ways can they connect connect with you to work with you?
00:33:46
Hanna curman
Thank you for asking. The webinar is ah being persons now Be Present Under Pressure. and that is also I have some some free books and so on that you can that I can put a link to in in connected to this episode as well.
00:33:55
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:34:04
Hanna curman
But what it is really about is that you you but you were talking about AI and 2025, we all got to know and understand and and yeah get familiar with AI as such.
00:34:09
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:34:19
Hanna curman
What we know now in 2026 is that that will be the the the breakthrough, the ones that are now really know how to utilize it and the ones that will fall back.
00:34:32
Hanna curman
And the ones that knows how to utilize it and do it with presence, coming back to that, they are the ones that will take the market shares and and be beneficial or take the benefits out of it.
00:34:46
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:34:46
Hanna curman
That is one of the reasons why I'm doing this. And and also another thing that we can see now also by so by research is that even though our brain and and of our cognition has evolved through through the generations or yeah evolutions, but we actually see that it's starting to shrink.
00:35:08
Hanna curman
And for me, that is quite scary. And I don't think that it that is what anyone would like to see that their brain is shrinking or that their kids brain is going to shrink.
00:35:22
Hanna curman
And just by understanding this that, okay, just don't not only to rush on everything, but actually to be able to stay present, even though the pressure is there and the speed I like and I dislike this metaphor. The speed has never been as assess fast as today and it will never be as slow as it is today. i mean I like it and I just like it, but I can see what it means.
00:35:50
Hanna curman
And we are there and we need to understand what that means to us and what what what that I'm i doing like this because it it really has to do with our nervous system and and our brain.
00:35:50
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:36:01
Hanna curman
There are so many things coming into our brain and signals coming in. And if we are not able then to to calm our say ourselves down and really understand, okay, which of those...
00:36:15
Hanna curman
I mean, we we can we can do so many things, but which of those things should I do now? Because one of the things that usually happens, and this is also with high achievers, if we are because high achievers, they want to be on the edge.
00:36:31
Hanna curman
And they should be on the edge. But running on all the different paths at the same time, that is not high achieving. that's not That's only running ah as hell.
00:36:44
Luisa Hogan
Yeah.
00:36:46
Hanna curman
So that is the so that is in this method or in this webinar, I'm talking about why this is needed and why it's needed now and what happens if we don't manage to to get this skill set. And one of the things that we also see Now, is we have used to say that the ones that are most valuable for us are the ones with the highest expertise, are the ones that have the highest education, the highest, you know, all those things.
00:37:13
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:37:17
Hanna curman
They have been the one that has got the the highest payment and and all those, all whatever it is. But the truth is that none of us, none of us will have as high IQ as our AI agents have.
00:37:36
Luisa Hogan
Mm-hmm.
00:37:36
Hanna curman
So we can't compete with them. We can't compete in expertise when it comes to that kind of expertise. But what we can do, which our AI agents so far are not really good at, that is to make clarity out of all the information that we get and inform about it.
00:37:56
Luisa Hogan
hurts. Yeah.
00:37:59
Hanna curman
We have a judgment, a possibility to judge, okay, how is this really relevant for me?
00:38:05
Luisa Hogan
Hmm.
00:38:06
Hanna curman
or not. That is something that we need to increase our ability to do. And another thing that that we never ever should forget, that is about the relationship, the importance of having good relationships.
00:38:27
Luisa Hogan
Yeah, 100%. Brilliant.
00:38:29
Hanna curman
and And yeah, so so that is really what this work is about.
Webinar on Leadership, AI, and Connection
00:38:34
Hanna curman
And then Of course, we are talking about the clarity chain and doing some exercises there as well just to to um get the first spark and feeling what it is.
00:38:46
Luisa Hogan
briant
00:38:47
Hanna curman
And you asked me, is there any possibility to join? Yes, I must say that this is a totally new webinar. I just set it up for for a Swedish audience. I had it during this week, but the plan is that I should also have this the English version. So, of course, whoever...
00:39:07
Hanna curman
um we can we can send that link a link to that as well a registration saying that i would like to join i would like to get um dates for coming webinars yeah yeah
00:39:16
Luisa Hogan
Yeah. Expression of interest. Yeah. Yeah. Because but by the time this episode is released, then um your current webinar will be finished, but it'd be good to have people express interest in what you're offering. So we'll definitely add those links to the show notes and people can join in that way.
00:39:33
Hanna curman
that would be great yeah no
00:39:33
Luisa Hogan
That'd be amazing. That'd be amazing. Hannah, I wish we had more time, but absolutely ah treat talking to you. i love talking to people who are doing things in the space that I'm absolutely passionate about. I love that you've brought your experience to the conversation and um told us about all the things that you're doing. I think you're doing really important work and really amazing work. So thank you so much for joining us today. and Are you on LinkedIn or any other social media that people can find you?
00:40:04
Hanna curman
I think that LinkedIn is the easiest way. and that You find me with my name there.
00:40:06
Luisa Hogan
Okay.
00:40:08
Hanna curman
I also have a YouTube channel. I'm also ah on Instagram. but But the easiest way is through LinkedIn.
00:40:15
Luisa Hogan
Excellent. Well, I'll put those details in the show notes too. Thank you so much, Hannah. It's been a real joy of being with you today. And to all the listeners, what I talk about today is that if you took out of today is that if you create, if you want to create real impact, it's not by moving faster or taking on more or being that perfect high achiever, if you're that high achiever out there listening, you're not going to create the biggest impact doing that. As Hannah said, I think you're going to make the biggest impact when you can stay fully present, when everything else wants you to react around you. And I think that's such an important lesson. And I hope you enjoyed today's episode as much as me. I will see you next time.
00:40:58
Luisa Hogan
Take care.