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The Loneliness Tax of Leadership with Kirsten Hopkins
195 Plays2 months ago
Leadership isn’t just about strategy or vision—it’s about the hidden inner battles. Many leaders silently carry the burden of doing it all themselves, paying the “loneliness tax” without even realising it. In this episode, Kirsten Hopkins reveals the moment she shifted from being a doer to someone who empowers others—and why that change transformed not just her leadership, but her life.
At The Second Voice, we explore the inner conversations leaders rarely say out loud.
If this episode resonated, it is likely because the second voice is active in your leadership too.
Hosted by Luisa Hogan, leadership resilience strategist and founder of Vermelho Consulting.
Luisa works with founders, executives, and senior leaders who carry real responsibility and want to lead with steadiness, clarity, and self-trust under pressure.
Her work focuses on nervous system regulation, leadership identity, and the inner dialogue that shapes how leaders show up when things are hard.
Work With Luisa
If this episode sparked reflection, here are ways to go deeper:
• Leadership resilience workshops and advisory
• Keynotes and curated live experiences
• The Steady Leadership framework and private sessions
Learn more at: vermelho.com.au
A Note From Whisper & Thread
The Second Voice is proudly supported by Whisper & Thread.
Whisper & Thread creates intimate apparel embroidered with quiet, internal messages designed to interrupt negative self-talk.
Each piece carries a reminder on the inside. Not performative. Not loud. Just for you.
Because leadership self-talk does not start in the boardroom.
And confidence is built in the moments no one sees.
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
For many, leadership is about strategy and innovation and vision, but it's also about the hidden inner battles. Many leaders silently carry the burden of doing it all themselves and they pay a loneliness tax without even realizing it. So in this episode, my guest and I are going to reveal the moment that she shifted from being a doer to someone who empowers others and why that change transformed not just her leadership, but her life and the leadership of others.
00:00:36
Speaker
Welcome back to the Second Voice podcast, where we uncover the conversations that leaders don't have out loud. My name is Louisa Hogan, and I'm your host. And today I'm joined by the marvelous Kirsten Hopkins. And I am so lucky to have known her for a very long time. And i have so much respect for her leadership, which is why I invited her onto the podcast today, because we're going to dive into the hidden cost of leadership and the isolation and the doubts and the shift from control to trust and how leaders can stop carrying it all alone. And I know Kirsten is going to have some amazing insights on this topic. As far as Kirsten goes, she is a social impact strategist who specializes in designing and delivering programs with purpose. With a career spanning the charity and public sector and social enterprise sectors, she's led innovation and impact initiatives that drive real change. She's managed accelerator partnerships and innovation funds to developing strategic investment models that help organizations grow sustainably. She's incredible in that regard.
00:01:46
Speaker
And she's a fellow of the RSA, a trustee of a major UK youth charity, because of course she's going to have time to do that on the side too. And she's recognized for her commitment to social innovation and systemic change.
00:02:00
Speaker
She's currently completing a postgraduate deployment in strategic marketing at the university of London. And I know that you're going to have some fantastic insights from her today. Kirsten, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so glad I get to catch up with you again, even though we live on other sides of the world to each other. yeah And it's been a year since I saw you in the UK. So tell us a little bit more about your leadership journey. Where did you start? How did you get to where you are now and all of the amazing things that you've been doing?
00:02:27
Speaker
Well, first of all, thank you so much, Lou, for having me on the podcast. It's amazing to see you again. It's amazing to keep up with what you're doing as well. And it's an absolute delight to be here to chat to you about this today. So I just wanted to say that. um I think in terms of leadership journey, well, it's been a lot of ups and downs, I guess, um and and sort of in all walks of life, in every part of my background, not just necessarily around my career, but a lot of it in kind of extracurricular activities, how you kind of are either forced or naturally step into these leadership roles, right? um And I think it's something that drives me is like where I can see maybe there are problems or issues um or spaces that need some kind of ro resolution, whatever that might be, if it's around big social problems, or maybe, ah you know, um arguments between people, or, you know, there's spaces that just need some kind of resolution. I've always felt like I need to be there. And no matter what that looks like, I want to be there to enable that to come to a resolution. So I think every leader probably feels that to a certain extent. yeah um Leadership journey-wise, in terms of my career, i don't think I've ever been anybody that wants to move into hierarchy. So I've never been somebody to go, oh, there's the next jump and I need to be there and I need to be a you know head of or then a director and then I want to be a CEO. I've always kind of moved outward more, thinking about those spaces.
00:04:00
Speaker
And leadership for me is really about where's the cutting edge, where are the next big things coming on the horizon, um what do I need to know now in order to future-proof, I guess, whatever I'm doing, whatever I see around me in the world, um whether that's kind of from protectionist point of view, I guess, or whether it's about really exciting new stuff that's happening in the world. I think I really like to be in those spaces. So almost like trailblazing, that's my view of And generally, I think across my career and work, that's sort of where I've been in those sorts of spaces in leadership. A bit of an accidental journey. You just found yourself on that path and, you know, not aspiring to be.
00:04:43
Speaker
you know, an executive leader, but finding yourself in circles, working within that space and trailblazing, as you say, that's amazing. yeah And, you know, as you know, this podcast is all about self-talk. I want to delve into like, what was your self-talk along that journey? You know, was it urging you on or were you experiencing doubt? Like what was happening during that time?
00:05:07
Speaker
So I think everybody experiences doubt, self-doubt. You know, you hear things around you um you. have that inner voice that says, is this really right? Is this going to be a success?
00:05:19
Speaker
Is this really for you? um and and we all experience that, right, at every point in our journey. And I think what stood out for me most is
00:05:32
Speaker
I guess is to take the risk and just see what happens. Like I'm that kind of person anyway, right? I've never been sort of fearful of doing something. I'd rather, i one of those people that maybe we would rather ask for forgiveness than permission. And I've tended to end up in the naughty step quite often in work because of it, for taking those risks. yeah um but But other than that, I think that hearing other people around you saying,
00:06:00
Speaker
that they believe in you, that they have seen you do good things or say good things, that your motivations are right, um that, yeah, you know, take that next step, take that risk, um do that. I think that's a massive help to surround yourself with those kinds of people that have seen your journey and your experiences and go, remember the time you did that and look at the outcome. That was great. That was successful. You can do that again, but to a bigger scale maybe, or in a different context um or somebody that's like, don't be so silly. oh I remember an example is when I started my own business, I was like, will people actually want to buy my skill set? Like, what do I actually really have to give? And so many people around me said, you're nuts to not do it.
00:06:47
Speaker
Because of course, people will want to buy your skill set and your experiences, even just your wisdom, you know, and I thought, oh, never. But actually, I did it. And it turned out great. and You know, people kind of coming to me, I didn't never had to write a tender or put in a proposal. It was all word of mouth. um And I'm so glad I just listened to those people that had seen it and gone, yeah, if you can do it, I believe in you, you know, you you can make this happen. So there is something about surrounding yourself with those sorts of people that kind of spur you on the journey.
00:07:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's such a theme that comes up in all of these conversations. And I'm always amazed by, you know, it is like so many, I speak to entrepreneurs and executive leaders on this podcast. It's been such a wonderful experience for me because I've heard my voice in so many of these conversations. And, you know, I just, I'm always amazed by, imagine if we all listened to that self-talk that we've all had, we wouldn't have started anything we've started. None of us would be where we are if we had just listened to that that doubt. And sometimes it's just pushing past that and ignoring that voice a little bit and trusting the people around you. And like you say, having those right people around you to support you is a huge part of it.
00:08:00
Speaker
It is. Yeah, it definitely is. So like did you ever feel lonely on that journey, you know, through this, you know, the twists and turns that you're going through starting your own business? Did you ever feel lonely in your leadership?
00:08:12
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I think one ah one of the things that you and I had the conversation about before we started this was about the loneliness tax. And I really like that because it is it is an emotional tax that you pay, I think, at at any level being a leader. um And that can be a number of different things. I think people maybe would mostly associate that with, well, I've got a big burden to carry, you know, but I have to show the world that I'm strong, I'm resilient, I can do this, I have all the answers, you know, not show any vulnerabilities or or chinks or cracks in the armour. And people...
00:08:50
Speaker
expect, I think, or maybe see leaders to be that. Even leaders themselves expect that of themselves and others. So there's that that comes along with being a leader. With me, it was probably from a sort of slightly different perspective. The loneliness hits, I think, where you are the only one ready and willing to raise your head above the parapet. As I said before, to kind of go into those unexplored places maybe that others haven't been and to be the first one in that place to go, like I think this is the direction of travel. I think this is where we need to be. i think we need to make these decisions um to to get us to the point where we're actually achieving
00:09:32
Speaker
our mission and being, you know, being, uh, walking in the direction of our vision and like making that come to fruition. And that for me in my journey was an extremely lonely place because people would look at you and go you're absolutely nuts. Like, how do you, how do you see that? Where do you see this happening? How do you see these things on the horizon? Like that doesn't, it doesn't make sense. Others would go, oh you know, oh, you're pontificating about,
00:09:59
Speaker
you know, the future, you don't actually do any real work, you know, you're just kind of there in those unexplored places. um You know, so so you have all sorts of fingers pointing at you, and you really have to kind of stand your ground because you believe so much in what you do, but at the same time, bring people along that journey with you. It doesn't help you're in that place and you're chiving people to kind of come along and saying, I don't know why you don't understand or why you don't see this um it's really helpful to kind of gently, I guess, massage people and move them um into that space. And eventually, I think I've seen that um people do come along, you know, when um I remember that a good example is when I set up an innovation accelerator for a really large charity and people are going, we can't understand this way of working. It's very agile. It's very flexible. um you just You just go off and you do stuff. you know You don't have to ask permission. You have lots of autonomy. And people were very, very uncomfortable with the way this is operating. But I look at it now. That's probably about 10 years ago. Look at it now where that organization is and how they've adapted those ways of working.
00:11:14
Speaker
They're there in the future that I had kind of seen that nobody else would believe in They've adopted those ways of working and those new partnerships and those, you know, the the innovative solutions for young people. um And come on leaps and bounds. It's incredible to see it when you can look back, you know, the hindsight thing. And I'm glad I stood my ground. It was tough and it was lonely.
00:11:35
Speaker
But I think sometimes you just have to believe in yourself. And and as I said, have those voices around you have people that are working alongside you that believe in that vision and can help you, you know, forge that path forward.
00:11:48
Speaker
So... But what was your voice saying when those people were saying you, telling you you can't? Because, you know, before you were talking about when you had the self-doubt, it's about having those people around you who encourage you. But when those people aren't encouraging you, you know, what what was your voice telling you to keep that going only to see reward in like 10 years time when you're like, you see, I told you you could do it.
00:12:12
Speaker
what yeah what did What did you, what were you telling yourself to keep pushing that? i think a part of me was, you know, I reflected heavily on those voices around me that were the kind of naysayers. And obviously that I think particularly where you're working in organizations that maybe stifle that way of thinking and moving forward, it was very difficult.
00:12:39
Speaker
um I think part of it was my love for what I did and the passion I had for what I did. So I think many people, as you said, like entrepreneurs and innovators and people that are in this space, leaders, you have to really have a passion to kind of forge your way forward and find opportunities the path through like that's what really drove me. And in that space in particular, um a lot of my work has been focused on children and young people and families and improving their lives and wellbeing and their future prospects and all of those things. And I knew that's one of my drivers is like, I have to listen to that.
00:13:16
Speaker
Is this going to make a difference for them in the long run? This is why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm not doing it for my ego or for the organization or um you know, to, to get onto podcasts or talk at conferences, like I'm doing it because I really believe this is going to make a difference to them. And I think when you've got that, um, as kind of part of your DNA, part of the work that you do, i think that's one of the things that really, really kept me going. It's like, I know, i know this is going to make a difference.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah. Amazing. It's yeah. ah It's so important to stay connected with why you do what you do. right? And I feel like when when you know that, it's it sounds like a no-brainer, but I don't think people spend enough time really connecting with why they do what they do and why it's so important to them. yeah And as a leader, I think it's particularly important because the hard days are very often um more frequent than the easy days. And what's going to get you through those hard days is exactly that. Like, okay, no, I believe in what I'm doing. I love what I'm doing.
00:14:20
Speaker
And I need keep pushing through that, right? Yeah. Yeah. and As you say, I think, I mean, there's there's something so important about especially connecting to the people maybe that you're serving or supporting or working with.
00:14:37
Speaker
Like there's so many leaders that I think feel they have to set themselves up in these ivory towers and be untouchable. um And, you know, i've I've really rated leaders. Like, for instance, we had one chief exec in my organization that used to do the walk around, we called it, on Friday evenings.
00:14:56
Speaker
This is when we were all still in the office sort of pre-COVID. And, you know, he used to, half past four, he used to just walk around the floors and chat to people. And he was one of those people that just remembered everything about you. You know, he'd ask about like, How's that auntie that was in hospital a few weeks ago? How's she doing? you know he'd how ah How are your kids? He'd remember things like that. And that struck me. He's like connecting with the people in the organization, seeing what's going on for them on a daily basis. Because no doubt you'd have people saying, oh, it's been a terrible week because of this, that and the other. And this is going really wrong at work. Can you do something about this? And he'd have to like suck all of that up. But I just thought, what a great way to connect with the people in your organization as a leader, to really understand
00:15:40
Speaker
what's going on for them. Because sometimes if you're a leader, you you kind of lose that connection and then you lose the whole lifeblood of why you're doing what you're doing and and what the best way is to kind of resolve or or move forward with some of those things. So I really like that. I think that's really important. Yeah, it is. it reminds me of Brene Brown recently on the Diary of a CEO podcast and she was talking about the marbles, ah trust marbles in a jar is what trust is and how –
00:16:12
Speaker
trust is created by so how many marbles you put in the jar. And she said, marbles are little things that build trust. It's like trust doesn't come just because I'm the leader and I'm in charge and I know what to do. Now you trust me. It's created by those little things. And what you were describing, that's putting a marble in the jar. Oh, How's your dog? Your dog wasn't well last week. You know, how's your dog doing this week? And how are you feeling? You were sick. and You know, all of those little things are marbles. And then that's a jar full of marbles that creates the trust, right? And um and yeah yeah, I just love that analogy. Yeah, it's really, really cool. So so tell me, you know, you've you've faced that loneliness. What have you done? ah Have you put anything in place for yourself as a leader to shift that loneliness feel? You know, what what have you done to transition out of that?
00:16:59
Speaker
if anything? So I don't think I've entirely transitioned out of it. I mean, I think that, like you say, there are certain things you can put in place and experience is one of them really, where you can kind of see, oh, I've been, I've been in a similar position to this before. And I either was an outlier, I was carrying so much, or, um you know, I really felt lonely in that place. um One of the things Definitely ah that I've done a lot more as my career and my life has progressed is really just making space for other people to lead. um And I think, you know, sometimes as leaders, as I said, you feel you have to do it all and you have to be the one forging ahead. But I found...
00:17:43
Speaker
like I don't trust people very easily and I might be a bit of an egomaniac of like, I know I could do the best job on this and I need to do it. And it's been very hard for me then to delegate things. um But on on one level, I've been forced to delegate because I just don't have the time or the capacity or whatever the availability to do it. And I think that's taught me some valuable lessons when you kind of let go and make space for other people to step into the fray. I think people really surprise you. you know, I've been pleasantly surprised. There are times that I haven't been pleasantly surprised, but most of the time I'm like, Oh, just actually creating that space. Yeah. Even not even saying to somebody, can you pick up this piece of work, but kind of having that enabling environment where people feel they can be proactive And they can kind of step in and say, oh I'd like to do that or I'd like to try something new or can we experiment with this? I think that's helped me a lot to feel less lonely um and and to kind of carry that burden of being a leader. um And that's been really, really important. I found throughout my career, ah probably more so like in the last 10 years, I've had
00:18:57
Speaker
which which has surprised me, i don't know I don't know why I'm surprised, but I am that a number of younger women that I've been working with in the workplace and outside have approached me and said, oh, you know, can I have a coffee with you? I want to just pick your brain about something. Or what do you think about my career prospects? Or how do you deal with these difficult characters? Like, what do you do? And I've been so surprised that people would come to me and ask those questions because some of it for me is just kind of second nature in terms of how i work. But I thought, I started thinking about my model of leadership, like how am I portraying, am I purposefully doing certain things? Am I portraying a wrong model of a leader to people? And started to actually pinpoint some of the areas that I think I could purposefully start to think about and maybe, i don't know kind of package up and support some of these other people that were coming to me to ask about and
00:19:53
Speaker
Explore with them what that could look like for them. You know, this looks like for me, and you know, dealing with conflict in the workplace. This is how I would resolve it. What could that look like for you in helping coach them through it? And honestly, the the amazing young women that I've seen just flourishing in their space. like they're They're moving people away going like, this is my space, I can do this. And I've come up kind of either in the ranks of organizations or they've started their own businesses or have new innovative idea. um And I just think I played a little part in maybe helping them create that space for them. And that's amazing for me to see as a leader. I think you do, you start to feel less lonely when you can see those people blossoming around you, even in your own team. um where they've done something great and been successful and you can say oh I think I had a little part to play in that and that's amazing to see where they've gone from there so i've I've definitely definitely done more of that as as scar of life has gone on i think I think it's not it's not easy it doesn't it doesn't become any easier but it's great to see when when it happens
00:21:01
Speaker
Yeah, you start to build a little community. And I think that comes with maturity and leadership too. And you become less competitive and more about giving back. And I've certainly found that as I've got older and, you know, approaching midlife, you know, and And certainly less competitive and more about, you know, there's room for all of us and we can lift each other up and, it you know, there's there's room for everybody um at the table and and I've really appreciated that.
00:21:32
Speaker
I find that interesting, you know, like that shift in your in your own mind around, okay, what part can I play in this and, you know, and having that realisation because some people don't have that self-awareness or awareness of that self-awareness that's you know you call it self-talk because it is self-talk it's like oh what can I do here about that you know yeah um yeah you know when did you find you started doing that you know was it much later recently
00:22:02
Speaker
I think it's happened in various it's probably more recently maybe like in the last like I said 10 years yeah um And maybe, like I said, it's as I've sort of progressed into those formal leadership roles, I guess, where where there isn't the time and there isn't the capacity and you do need that team around you to be able to achieve what you need to achieve. So, you know, I wouldn't say, i guess if you could do everything, I'd probably still continue doing everything. Maybe that's just a ah natural default. But I think it's definitely since, you know, there's, life has become way more busy in general. And I think you do need people to be around you so that you're all bringing different things to the table. I've definitely learned that, I guess, in the last three years, working within a multidisciplinary team and at my at the current company I'm working at, where each individual has come in with a different background, with a different skill set. They've all maybe studied or kind of have a theoretical base in different um disciplines and have very, very different perspectives in how they would approach solving a problem. um And that for me has been a major shift of like, wow, I've learned so much from being around these people, you know, and seeing things from different perspectives and looking at them from different lenses. It's been so helpful for me to see like my own blind spots, to see areas maybe that I don't know as much about that I thought I might know about and to just learn new things every day. I think that's been amazing. So anybody involved, I guess, in very singular disciplines
00:23:51
Speaker
I'd probably find they'd maybe be at a disadvantage and would encourage people to just break free from that and go out and explore and talk to other people, um you know, broaden your horizons, think about things, get people around you that challenge your perceptions and the way you think about things. And and that's been incredible because you realize, yes, I've got something to bring, but so does that person, that person, that person, and they're all very different, but together,
00:24:17
Speaker
particularly when you're looking at big sort of social problems and solving those or ah problems in change management or the way organizations work or the way teams work and so on. um I think that's incredibly, incredibly helpful. So definitely over the last three years, there's been a kind of additional layer added to all of that.
00:24:36
Speaker
Amazing. That takes a lot of... um Honesty for yourself, but also vulnerability, because I would imagine a lot of leaders out there would feel incredibly vulnerable when faced in a situation like that, where they're not, you know, the expert.
00:24:52
Speaker
I mean, you are the expert in your area, but now you have to grow and have other people tell you things that you didn't know. um yeah and yeah i i would have no doubt that people listening would go, that's terrifies me because that means, you know, being honest about the things I don't know. So what's your advice to people who are faced with that? Because you've clearly gone through it and you've thrived in it and you've capitalized on it You know, what what tip can you give people who going through that and have a fear of that vulnerability?
00:25:22
Speaker
I think the more you try it, the more you try being vulnerable and honest and transparent, the better reassured you are, I think, that it's ah like it's okay. Because you see people's reactions and generally people are okay with it. They're not going to sort of haul you over the coals or...
00:25:41
Speaker
you know say, well, why why don't you know that you're supposed to be the expert in this? and You know, that that humility, I think, goes a long way. I mean, just this morning, I was on a client call and we were talking about VAT.
00:25:53
Speaker
And i was like, I have no idea what this is or what it means. And I probably should know as the lead consultants on this, you know, on this project. And and I just went...
00:26:06
Speaker
Like, I'm not the expert. I don't know. I should know, but I don't. But let me go and check. you know, with the people that I need to, and I'll come back to you. And the response was, we don't know either. So we'll check on our side. And we all had a laugh about it because nobody in the room actually had a clue about what was going on. And I think just, just being humble and, and you know, even just saying, look, you know, i I need to go back and check that for you. I think it might be this, but let me just make a hundred percent sure. And I'll come back to you. um
00:26:39
Speaker
people i think people respect that more than they'd respect you trying to bluff your way through making something that it's not you know people are more astute than i think we give them credit for and can see through bullshitting frankly so i think openness and transparency um and as as I said the more you try it I think the more the more okay you feel with it and I really encourage the team I'm working with because you know sometimes if as a
00:27:11
Speaker
lead consultant, you can't be on a call with a client. And very often you won't have the answer. Very often I don't have the answer and I need to go check, um you know, to to just do that or go and do some like brainstorming with your team about it or let's come up with some ideas together. I think stuff like that is is really, really important. Yeah. And it builds trust, right? Like I always tell always tell clients of mine, you know, when we're doing culture change projects, the things that build trust the most within a team is saying, I don't know, i need help and I disagree, you know, because if you can do that with humility and kindly, you have so much better conversation and then people know that they're getting the authentic you and not the
00:27:56
Speaker
the fake you go try you know yeah yeah people I think people generally don't yeah they don't want leaders that have all of the answers I think just expressing that kind of you know transparency and honesty um and just being grounded and self-aware I think people kind of respect that you know and you don't have to have all the answers but you can say Oh, but but we'll we'll find them together. ah like Let's explore them together and let's see what those answers might be. I think people like being part of the, you know, solution-focused conversation. So, yeah, yeah, it's definitely important. That was a huge mistake of mine in my early leadership career, you know, early days where I thought I had to know all the answers and that I had to be perfect all the time. And if I didn't know the answer, then I was a terrible leader. And it's not only damaged me because it just set this high expectation on myself that was never going to be attainable, but it yeah it wasn't good for my teams. And yeah the realization when that changed for me and the um the depth of relationship I could build with stakeholders and with my teams and now with clients, nine years of consulting with my with my business,
00:29:09
Speaker
You know, that's the philosophy I have, right? It's like, if I know the answer, I'll give it to you. If I don't, I'll find out, you know, and that's just the way it is. That's right. Yeah. I remember once um in ah in a team meeting, I had such an exhausting couple of weeks and, you know, people as a leader, people will look to you for the answers or they maybe expect them. And I remember being in this meeting and somebody asked the question, well, how are you know how are we going to solve this? And I just went, oh, I don't know.
00:29:37
Speaker
it was just one of those moments of like, don't even make me think this moment or say anything because I'm just flat out fatigued. And they all laughed. But at that point, one of the people in the team said, hang on, I think I maybe have a way through this. Or what about this idea? I can't remember the exact kind of way they phrased it. And they so they they came up with this idea, but why why don't we try this? And it was amazing to see how that just spurred the rest of the team. Somebody else then took that and said, oh, and we could do this. And they kind of built on that idea. And I was just so relieved that somebody had taken, you know that kind of tension in the air of like, I have no idea what to do here. i have no idea about the next steps.
00:30:22
Speaker
And I hadn't even opened up to say, what do you all think? Now I do. What do you all think? Because I know that, you know, that's a natural space people want to move into or should move into. um And I was like, I just thought that was absolutely brilliant. Like without being prompted, they just came up with that. And it took the pressure off me, you know, and they realized, know,
00:30:42
Speaker
I think for me, it was less pressure. Like I don't have to be that leader that knows everything and has all the answers and setting the direction of travel. um Other people need to do that too. And they can, they're more than willing and more than capable to do that. yeah So that was ah quite a defining moment for me. And i'm glad I do that more often now. I'm like, don't know I don't know like what do you fun think about it now yeah what do you think tell me but it gives people permission too right and also it gives them permission later if they don't know the answer for them to say so because I'd rather the people who work with me or the team that I'm leading are honest with that too because then I'm not tasked with fixing problems all the time and I think it's such a huge part of maturing in your leadership is understanding that you don't have to be
00:31:29
Speaker
the person who knows all the answers all the time. yes And I think new people coming into leadership now, you know, take that on board. You know, you don't have to know everything, but you also have to have some credibility too, right? So, you know, it's it's walking that line.
00:31:45
Speaker
Yes, yes. Tell me about your own business. You know, you started your own business and, you know, that that was ah another journey for you. And do you do you find that ah that was a different mindset, that entrepreneurial mindset to the mindset that you have consulting, you know, working with organizations? Tell me tell me about that and and the self-talk that comes along with that.
00:32:07
Speaker
Yeah. So that was, ah I set up a business and a number of years ago and I think it was one of those moments in life where I thought actually, and I think a lot of people who set up their own businesses feel this, you know, I don't want to be beholden to organizational hierarchies and structures and people sort of telling me in which direction I can go and how to get there. You know, I really want to forge my own path and alongside where you have a very kind of specialist expertise
00:32:40
Speaker
you know I think that may not necessarily be seen or visible within bigger organizations. um It was all those sorts of things and and the passion for, I can really help i can really help other organizations if I'm just kind of given the chance. um But again, it was kind of like, how how do I actually do this? The technicalities of setting up a business. I had no idea, no idea about anything. My poor accountant initially, not even initially, now he's like,
00:33:10
Speaker
I can just see his face when I'm asking these really downright stupid questions to him, but he's so patient with me. But the fact that I can go, you know, Alex, I don't know about this. Tell me about this. Or, you know, am I doing this in the right way? Like, what do I need to fill in here? And, um and he's really, paid really patient with me, but I've, but he's got to know that that's the way the relationship is, I guess, with setting up the business, everything from like registering with company house and, the returns every year. And you know um luckily my now husband helped me set up my business back then. And he was just so relaxed about He's like, you can take it all in your stride, one step at a time. And having that ah you know those people with the specialist knowledge of how things work.
00:33:56
Speaker
I chatted to a number of my friends that had set up their own businesses as well, going like, what are the pitfalls? What mistakes should I avoid? What did you do? How did you tackle this? I think was so super helpful, like including you. You know, I think just hearing about those journeys made me feel like, oh, it's okay. Everybody goes through this sort of thing when they, you know, when they're setting up. yeah um Even small things like invoicing clients, like what does an invoice need to look like? What do I need to put in? How much level of detail needs to go into it? You know, and I think those are the things you you kind of learn along the way. And I think that's really helped me then moving into with the company I'm working now because, know,
00:34:38
Speaker
I am part of the senior leadership team in the company, but I understand things now about like how to run a business, about seeing things from an economic standpoint, about how important looking at work in progress on your projects are, about assuring you're spending you know the the amount of time that you need on projects and not kind of going over you know not going over that. about putting in the right rates, chargeable rates in your proposals. see These are things you kind of don't learn. Nobody teaches you unless you're forced to do it. And having my own business forced me to learn all of those things. And now I'm, yeah, probably 70, 80% comfortable with them. The accounting stuff, I'm still like, oh, the math stuff. But yeah.
00:35:24
Speaker
But, you know, it's a journey and I think having those people around me that I can bounce things off who who walk that same path, their businesses may be very different. um And, you know, I worked to i worked a lot and in my previous role with startups. So seeing their journeys and I learned a lot from them as much as they had learned from me. you know, in the areas that I know about, and about what it takes to run a business and, you know, you're commercializing, you'll go to market, um you know, what what the value of death looks like for companies that have been running two to five years and what happens that, you know, after that, I think really, really important to familiarize myself with those journeys and have those people around me.
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah. You know what strikes me about your journey is, and listening to you and is, you know, I can hear all of the doubt that you've had and all of this, you know, the, the issues that came up in your mind, like, how am I going to do that? I don't even know what that is. And what strikes me about you specifically is how you've surrounded yourself with other voices who have helped you and not only helped you physically, but you've listened to what they've had to say.
00:36:38
Speaker
it seems to be a theme throughout your whole journey. you know, it's like, I've had people supporting me, telling me that I can do it. I've had to help people tell me how to do it. I've opened up my mind to learning how other people do it. And i I think that's a real lesson and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like that's a real lesson that I'm gaining from you in this conversation is around, okay, if you're going to have those doubts, if you're going to feel lonely, start pulling people around you who are going to have a louder voice than that internal voice.
00:37:06
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. that that step That is definitely a lesson. I mean, I'm still learning that, but I think what I do purposefully now is seek those people out, especially if I'm going into kind of new or unexplored territory or something I haven't done before, I will automatically now kind of go out and seek those people to tell me how they've done it or to tell me what they think or to give me those lessons, you know. um And as you say, just sit there like a sponge and really, really listen and ask all of the, what I might perceive as really dumb and stupid questions to them might be super basic.
00:37:44
Speaker
um And that's, it's it's definitely helpful. And do you know what? People are so um available and so willing to give their time to help others. I think don't, you know, to any of the listeners, don't be afraid to ask people to help you. Don't be afraid to ask them to give you a little bit of, their time or to just have a quick meeting or can we go for a coffee? Because people are genuinely, if you're there to learn and you want to hear about what they've got to offer,
00:38:12
Speaker
I've never had anybody who said, oh, definitely not. I'm not meeting with you. I'm not um i'm not giving you all all of my like precious gems and my valuable information. People are more than willing to be like, yep, I'll tell you. I'll tell you whatever you want to know. and Because I, you know, I genuinely believe people, you know, want to help where they can see other people are kind of coming along the same journey that they have, which is incredible. and it's It's really great to, you know, that that people are willing to give off their time in that way. A hundred percent. And great for us in the learning journey.
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah, a hundred percent. So our time comes to an end and I feel like I could talk to you for ages always. I'll talk to many of these and I'm like, I need another half an hour, but there's never that time. But if you had one final tip, you know, for the leaders out there listening who might be going through something similar that you've experienced, that feeling of loneliness when you're the trailblazer or the feeling of loneliness when you're at the top and you feel like you have to have all the answers.
00:39:09
Speaker
Any final tips that you have for them? So I think the three things maybe that I'd like to leave with listeners, and I've been thinking a lot about this. The the first one is... when you might be feeling lonely or kind of out there on your own or really carrying a heavy load, um to name it. So say out loud the weight you're carrying, talk about it, whether it's to yourself in the mirror or, um you know, whether you record it or whether you tell somebody else. I've really found that that and isolation and that that loneliness thrives in the silence. So the minute you kind of speak it out, it just brings some kind of relief and and peace. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, we've already spoken a lot about this, but share the load. So number one, delegation isn't a weakness. um its respect It's respect for your team's capacity. It's respect for their capability and also for your own humanity, you know for for your own mental health and um and peace, I think. But the second thing is we're already spoken about this.
00:40:13
Speaker
Find yourself a really small circle of trusted advisors. So these might be people that you work with. There might be people in your personal life or that you've known for ages that you can reality check your ideas with because these are the people that are going to tell you the truth with a lot of care. And having those sounding boards changes everything. And you don't need a crowd of people. You don't need to go to every like Tom, Dick or Harry. You just need the right few of people that are your trusted advisors.
00:40:42
Speaker
And then the third one is build a circle. Don't put yourself on a pedestal. Make sure you're surrounding yourself properly. as a center of gravity, I guess, around one shared purpose. So you're not the person in the middle as a leader on the pedestal. You're really a center of gravity with everybody else moving around and you're moving around them, almost like, I guess, atoms and um and how that works. and So I think...
00:41:11
Speaker
That's probably what I'd leave with the listeners. Those are my three tips. I was thinking a lot about that. Yeah. So there you go. I'm never going to think of an atom the same again, because I love that notion of like get off the pedestal and become part of this atom of, you know, I love that. Yeah. yeah It's brilliant. I absolutely love that. Well, you're based in the yeah UK. If people want to connect with you, where can they connect with you?
00:41:32
Speaker
ah More than happy for people to connect with me over LinkedIn. Kirsten Zara Hopkins is my name on LinkedIn. um Otherwise, email and is kirstenzhopkins at gmail.com.
00:41:45
Speaker
Hopefully very simple. and And very happy for people to contact me, either message me or email me. And yeah, happy to have a chat. Would love to would love to hear if any listeners want to talk to me after this. I'm very happy to pick up on any of the ideas or stuff we've discussed the podcast.
00:42:00
Speaker
Get in touch with Kirsten if you work in that space. You are in for a treat, I promise you. i could talk with Kirsten for ages. I'm so happy you came on the podcast today, Kirsten. Thank you so much. Thank you. For for listeners, you know, what I take out of today is that the real cost of leadership leadership isn't just in the decisions that we're making, but it's in the voices that we listen to, both inside and also to the voices we listen to that we surround ourselves with. And I'm really taking that away with me for today.
00:42:29
Speaker
and because Kirsten's story really reminds us that the true leadership comes when we stop being the person who carries it all alone and we become that atom. I love it. I absolutely love that idea. So thank you for joining us today and thank you, Kirsten, and we will see you next time on the Second Voice podcast. Take care.
00:42:47
Speaker
Thank you, Lou. Thank you.