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14. The Truth about Making Money as a Nonprofit with Joanne Curry
103 Plays3 months ago
Joanne Curry is the Head of Client Success & Principal at Creative Fundraising Advisors. Rooted in her ballet training, Joanne is passionate about empowering nonprofit organizations to achieve their utmost potential.
In this episode Joanne shares what brought her to the realization that a professional dance career wasn’t for her and how she pivoted into the world of nonprofit administration. As a nonprofit expert, Joanne gives us valuable insight into what a nonprofit business really is and the most common misconception people have. We learn the biggest mistakes nonprofit dance companies are making in becoming financially stable and three things companies can start doing today to turn things around. Joanne also shares how dancers can contribute to the financial success of their company (and in turn, get paid more!).
This conversation is incredibly eye-opening for anyone running or employed by a nonprofit business (aka, most ballet dancers!). Together, we can move from the starving artist mindset to one of financial prosperity in the arts.
Key Moments:
- Early training [1:50]
- Attending college for dance [3:00]
- Realizing she didn’t want to pursue a professional dance career (and how she pivoted) [5:43]
- Transitioning into the world of nonprofit administration [10:08]
- What is a nonprofit business (and the most common misconception about nonprofits) [14:50]
- The biggest mistakes nonprofit dance companies are making [16:45]
- How to appeal to donors and drive giving [21:36]
- The three things nonprofit dance companies can do today to become more financially stable [35:44]
- What dancers can do to contribute to the success of their company [37:58]
- Her biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [43:40]
Connect with Joanne:
CREATIVE FUNDRAISING ADVISORS: https://creativefundraisingadvisors.com/
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joanne-curry-7760184b/
Links and Resources:
The College Dance Decision: thebrainyballerina.com/the-college-dance-decision
DRT: www.drttix.com/create-event (Make sure to mention that The Brainy Ballerina sent you!)
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at [email protected]
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Transcript
Introduction & Importance of Community Feedback
00:00:00
Speaker
Don't be afraid to ask what people think and ask their opinion and ask them to tell you why they keep coming back or why they decided to come in the first place or give you a donation in the first place. Listening is extremely powerful. And again, you do not have to follow every single person's every single recommendation, but at the end of the day, you are there to serve a community. That's your mission. So, you should get to know your community and understand what they want and what they need.
Caitlin's Background and Podcast Introduction
00:00:36
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need and succeed in a dance career on your turns.
Empowering Non-profits in Dance with Joanne Curry
00:01:09
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Joanne Curry. Joanne is the head of client success and principal at Creative Fundraising Advisors. Rooted in her ballet training, Joanne is passionate about empowering nonprofit organizations to achieve their utmost potential. The vast majority of dance companies in the US are 501c3 nonprofits, and Joanne is so good at what she does, working with nonprofits and helping them become financially successful.
Joanne's Dance Journey and University Experiences
00:01:37
Speaker
And I am so thrilled to get her expert advice on the business side of the dance world. Before we get into that, Joanne has a really interesting story of how she got to where she is now. And so I want to start with your background a little bit, Joanne, and I want to hear why you took your very first dance class. Awesome. Well, thanks for having me, Caitlin.
00:01:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's a simple reason. Honestly, my sister, she's eight years older than me. She started taking ballet and I, you know, naturally went to the studio with her and my mom to, you know, pick her up and drop her off and all of that. And, you know, might as well take a class myself. So that's how I got started. Probably about four, maybe years old. What was your training like growing up? It was mainly ballet. So we grew up at a studio. It was called Amy Tyler School of Dance and Harbor Ballet Theater in Port Jefferson, New York. And they were really rooted in ballet, but they had everything. They had jazz, tap, all that. But I really loved ballet. I liked the discipline of it. I liked trying to work on something till perfection, which I'm sure a lot of people experience. So it wasn't really a specific style. I felt like we had a lot of different teachers. So it wasn't, you know, just Baganova or Joketi or something like that. But I feel like I had a well-rounded training, at least growing up, to be able to understand, you know, what the different styles were.
Cultural Shift and Growth at University
00:02:55
Speaker
And then you decided to go to college for dance, correct? I did. I did. So again, following in the footsteps of my sister, she went to college for dance and she started dancing professionally right after that. And
00:03:09
Speaker
I felt like that was my path as well. I really wanted to pursue that. I looked up to her a lot and I saw that she was successful in that field and so I wanted to do that as well. So I auditioned for a couple of college dance programs but where I ended up was at the University of Utah. which had a ballet department. Now they've combined in their college of dance or school of dance right now, but they still have a a really good ballet focus there. So I decided to pick up and move across the country to a place I'd never been,
Overcoming Challenges in Ballet Training
00:03:42
Speaker
Utah. And what was that experience like? It was amazing and
00:03:46
Speaker
very eye-opening. I grew up in New York and I had been other places you know i in high school. i I did the whole summer program thing, but mainly stayed on the East Coast. So this was a very different environment. Salt Lake City itself, it's beautiful. The university is up kind of in the mountains. And it was just a breathtaking landscape I'd never experienced. The culture was really different, just in general, like the people. I wasn't used to that. um It was a bit more conservative. I still felt very comfortable there, but it was just very, very different than growing up in New York. And then the the ballet program itself,
00:04:25
Speaker
It was incredible. It pushed me beyond anything that I thought I was capable of. It also had that effect that I'm sure some people are familiar with, where I went from being the best where I was to being the bottom of the barrel at the University of Utah. It was a change, but I liked it because I felt like I saw all of these people around me who were incredible dancers from all over the country really and I think that helped me you know just work harder to try to figure out how how I could continue to progress and learn. We had a lot of different teachers, two of my favorite teachers were from Russia actually and so ah very very heavy on the Vaganova technique and I really enjoyed
00:05:13
Speaker
that technique. We had a Balanchine professor. We had, so again, all different types of styles that really leaned into it. I worked my butt off. It was really hard and really rewarding and also very eye opening into what being a ballet dancer meant.
Realization and Career Transition
00:05:30
Speaker
And then coming out of college, was your goal still to first pursue this professionally? Were you auditioning? What was that process? Yeah, so my junior year of college, the summer after, I was went back to my home studio and I was teaching in a summer camp and I just was feeling a bit lost, honestly. Like I said before, I felt like it was eye opening into what it meant to be a ballet dancer. And you know I was in the studio probably eight hours a day, maybe not consecutively, but you know morning classes then would go take some Gen Ed college classes and then come back to the studio for different rehearsals.
00:06:08
Speaker
And I didn't like it. And that was really scary. That was a really hard feeling to grapple with. My parents had supported me the whole time in my desire to move forward and get this degree. And I was really scared of honestly letting them down. But also I was really just confused as to why I was feeling this way. Because I thought, you know, since I was a kid and into high school, I was so sure as to what I wanted to do with my life. And I mean, looking back, that seems kind of crazy because you're a teenager. How do you actually know? But I was, I was certain, right? And then when I actually got into it, I realized that I didn't think that it was for me. So I didn't know what to do with that information though, because that's all I knew. And I had one more year left. I distinctly remember a conversation I had with my mom. I called her up and I was walking somewhere and I just told her,
00:07:03
Speaker
I don't think I want to do this anymore. I don't think I want to dance professionally. And she is extremely logical and she just kind of talked me through it. And she said, that's okay. You know, what do you want to do? Do you want to change majors? And I was like, no, I have no idea what else I would do. So I, and I have one more year left. So I was really dead set on finishing out my degree, graduating. but I really didn't know what to do with that information. But she she and my dad were always super, again, supportive and were always there if I needed to talk it out and figure out what I could possibly do next. So anyway, that kind of information was...
00:07:40
Speaker
out for me and and to my parents and all of that, but I went back to school and finished out my senior year. But of course, like you said, during that time, that's when you start to go audition for companies, right? And I literally had no idea what else to do. So
Exploring New Career Paths in Dance
00:07:56
Speaker
I did that. But I didn't i didn't do all of the cattle calls. I didn't go to 20, 30, 40 auditions. I maybe went to 10. I was really specific about the places that I researched. In college, I felt like I got a lot of exposure to contemporary ballet, and that was something I really, really loved, even though I still knew I probably didn't want to do it all day every day.
00:08:20
Speaker
So I started researching companies and I would research the really big ones that did contemporary ballet really well, but then I would i would look at the bios of the dancers there and I would read where they came from because that was ah probably a more realistic entry point for me or for anybody probably, you know, in in my position. So did a lot of research, found a handful of small contemporary ballet companies that I was interested in and set up auditions and auditioned for a couple. I did not get a job. I did not get offered a contract dancing anywhere. But one of the companies I auditioned for was Missouri Contemporary Ballet, same year you auditioned. And there was something about the environment, the people, you know, I went there to take company class to audition and I watched Rep for a bit and I i loved it.
00:09:06
Speaker
And I was really bummed when I didn't get the job, even even though again, I don't think it was the right thing for me, but I just wanted to be there so badly that I reached out to the director, Karen, and they were opening a school that year. And I said, Hey, I just graduated with my degree in ballet and in teaching specifically. So I can basically do anything that you need. What do you think? And she said, okay, why don't you move to the middle of Missouri? And come work for me, even though we don't know what you're going to do. And I of course was like, absolutely. This sounds like a great idea. And I did that. Well, isn't that crazy? Because you had no idea at that time where this was going to take you, but you just had like an inkling. Yeah. but This was the place to be. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There was something about it. I can't really put my finger on it, but I feel like, I mean, you know, it's a special place.
00:10:00
Speaker
It is. What were you doing when you were at MCB? How did you kind of start transitioning into this world of working for nonprofits on the administrative and leadership side? so I first started just as reception for the the desk for the school. They were opening their school that year, and so I did registration, I took payments, I signed people up, all of that type of thing. And I was able to take class as well, which was really
Adapting to Administrative Roles
00:10:27
Speaker
nice. And I taught a bit at the school. But really, really quickly, there was a need for the company. There was a need for marketing. There was a need for social media. There was a need for coordinating with the theater for our performances and our tickets. There was a need for
00:10:43
Speaker
grant writing and all of the things and Karen, you know, my boss just kept coming to me and said, is this something you could do? And I said, absolutely. And, you know, then I would, I've told her the story, but I'm like, I go back to my desk and I Google, what is a press release? How do you write one? Who do you send it to? And that's how I learned. I mean, that was my first year and she just kept giving me opportunity and I just kept taking it. So I was there for three years, but I really grew into the role. I was finally, it was established. I was the director of operations, which I'm really proud of.
00:11:18
Speaker
But I managed everything from that side. Karen was the executive artistic director and so there was just two of us on the admin side and I was really able to kind of take that and make it ah my own. So I learned a ton. Again, I dabbled in everything. The marketing side but worked a little bit with the financials. I learned about fundraising. I'm really grateful that for that experience because that's how I learned best. Just throw me in the deep end and I will figure it out. and She gave me that opportunity time and time again. and I think that's so valuable for dancers to hear because that is such a huge component of.
00:11:55
Speaker
Success is just that idea of everything's figure outable. Yeah. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just going to go Google it and figure it out or ask someone. Absolutely. I've always said that I do not know everything at all, but I'm very confident in my ability to figure it out always. Do you feel like that came from being in the ballet world? Was that just innate for you? Yeah. So in the ballet world, I feel like you're constantly self-motivated to try to continue to improve. And so you are given challenges with maybe different choreography that you've never experienced before, or you know different styles, or even something that you've been trying to work on for years. And
00:12:38
Speaker
you know, maybe somebody says something different that that helps make it click for you, but you're always trying to find a new way, I think, to think about things and to improve what you're doing. So absolutely, I think that that came from my training and from being in the ballet world. Totally. And I think there's that idea too, of like the show must go on, you have to figure it out, right? Like, you're gonna be on stage doing this step, whatever it is, this choreography. And so it's like, you have this deadline, and you're like, I gotta
Navigating Dance Education Decisions
00:13:07
Speaker
figure it out. And I think that does feed into us in any area of our life.
00:13:11
Speaker
Yeah. and I mean, there's nobody but you, right? Especially if you're on stage and it's happening, like you have to figure it out, right? If something goes wrong, it doesn't matter. You got to keep going. And yeah, that perseverance, I think has really helped me in my career. Do you want to stop worrying about what's next after high school? You're not alone. Many dancers struggle with the decision of which path to take after high school. Should you attend college for dance? Should you strike out on your own in the real world of professional dance? How do you know which path is right for you? I've been there myself. That's why I teamed up with my colleague Gina McFadden of Dancer360 to bring you the college dance decision.
00:13:54
Speaker
The College Dance Decision is a digital course that will help you take stock of what you really want after high school, develop a plan and a backup plan toward achieving your goals, and provide actionable advice to connect with your parents to bring your dreams to life. We've been in your shoes. And while we took completely different paths, we both came out on the other side with professional careers in ballet. Let us save you countless hours and dollars by providing you with the structure to make an informed and powered decision about your future.
Nonprofit Business Models and Funding Strategies
00:14:25
Speaker
Head to the link in my show notes and take action to cut through the fog of anxiety and confusion and finally get a plan for your dance future. I want to switch now into talking more about nonprofits and this whole business side of dance that I think is not talked about a lot. But it's so important for dancers because we want to get paid. We want to be financially stable. So we need to talk about it. I first would love if you could just define for us what a nonprofit business is.
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah, so a nonprofit business really simply is one that is set up for a cause and not to make a profit. But there's a very clear distinction in that they are still a business. You can still make a profit. You just reinvest the profits into your business. into furthering the mission of your organization, right rather than giving bonuses to the highest people and and all of that. So yeah, nonprofit, it's a tax strategy. It's not a business model in the sense that like we have to run things differently. It's just, what do you do with the profits at the end of the day? And you reinvest them.
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah. You'll hear something along the lines of, well, we just can't pay you because we're a nonprofit. Yeah. And that has nothing to do with why they can't pay you. Nope. Maybe they can't pay you because they're not making enough money. Right. Their business model is not sound, but but they're not not paying you because they're nonprofits. And that kind of is something that I think companies tend to fall onto as like, as an out. Well, yeah. What are we going to do? We're a nonprofit. Yep. I completely agree. It's so frustrating every time that I hear that. So many people you know have said to me throughout my entire career, like, oh, you work for a nonprofit. You must not make a lot of money. I'm like, no, I'm i'm good. I'm doing well. you know My current firm, right we service nonprofits. Those are our customers, our clients. And again, people are like, oh, well, you must not be doing well. I'm like, we're doing great.
00:16:23
Speaker
Most of the time, it's because they haven't run their business well. And that's why they don't have the funds to pay you. It's not because they're a nonprofit, but they tend to lean on that excuse. And quite frankly, that's unacceptable. What are some of the biggest mistakes you see, specifically in nonprofit dance companies? There's a couple. So one is that probably both internally as the organization and an external perception is that ticket sales pay your budget. And they absolutely do not. This goes for any ticketing type of organization like a museum as well. But typically ticket sales make up less than 10% of your organization's budget. It's great. We need it, right? It's called earned revenue. It's absolutely a part of the financial model.
00:17:12
Speaker
But it is by no means how a company supports itself. So I think that there's a lot that goes into like marketing for shows and and all of that and buying tickets. And it's extremely important. But I think there's also an education component. to the audience and the greater population to understand that we rely on philanthropy. we We rely on private foundations and individuals, but then also government grants to support ourselves. So there is actually a really complex financial model for how to support a nonprofit, which is very different than the for-profit world, which is typically you have a service, a gooder service, you sell that, and then you make the money
00:17:55
Speaker
and then you keep going, right? You basically have one stream of revenue. And in a nonprofit, there's a couple of different buckets that are all equally important to the success of an organization. That's probably one of one of the biggest things. The second thing might be an unpopular opinion, and it's a little it's hard. But when I see ballet companies or dance companies struggle, it's usually because they have invested all of their money into the art form. They didn't hire anyone to run their business. They don't have an executive director. They don't have anyone who knows how to do their accounting, maybe some marketing because they see that that's related. But I think both are important, right? Especially if you want to grow and succeed and pay your dancers well, you know, a wage that they deserve.
00:18:47
Speaker
You have to also invest in the administrative side and the operation side of your company. And most of the time, again, understandably, they are set up to do a specific thing, a mission, right? To produce art, to work with the community. And that is so important. But sometimes that part tends to grow exponentially and the operation side is so small and can't catch up and so when they're unbalanced like that is when organizations.
00:19:20
Speaker
tend to feel that pinch and they get themselves into financial hardship and things like that because they don't have the infrastructure on that side to actually support the business that then produces this world class art, the community programs and things like that. Yeah, that brings up two things that I'm thinking of. And one is the fact that like for a lot of grants, when you're writing them, you're writing them for a very specific program. And I've seen companies fall down this trap where they want to get a grant so badly that they were going to like create a program that fits in line with this grant that didn't exist yeah before because they're like, we need this money. But that money is just going toward that program that now you've created something new. Now you have more work on your plate. created an additional and Yeah. And chances are your grant funding is not going to cover that program completely. It might get cut completely. I mean, we just saw in Florida, they cut all arts funding. yeah you know There's no more grant funding. So like you never know. That's not necessarily reliable. And that's another thing that's really tricky and kind of falls into the same place. But even with donations, people really want to give donations for a specific program. And I get that. You want to know that your donation is going to something that you're passionate about. But I would really urge people, if you are in a position to donate to a nonprofit, to donate just to them in general. People don't really want to pay for admin. They don't want to pay to keep the lights on. like That feels boring, but that's the most important thing. So any donation that you can give that is not necessarily earmarked for one specific program is actually more beneficial for the company as a whole. Absolutely, absolutely. In the fundraising world, we call that unrestricted giving. right It's not tied to anything specific. It's the weird, needed most bucket. And it is so important. right Because what it does is it allows the organization to be more flexible and to be more nimble and to figure out how they're going to get all of the financial funding they need to move forward, right? If everything is tied to something specific, then chances are there's a big gap somewhere, usually in the operations side, that you can't sustain, right? And if you can't pay your grant writer or your accountant, then eventually one day you're going to run out of money. you know, what you were talking about in that a lot of donors like to feel like, you know, my dollar went to this specific program and it did this specific thing. And we totally understand that, right? But actually, I've been talking with a lot of my clients about this. What we want to do is transition that type of
00:21:47
Speaker
giving and language, which is very transactional, right? I give you money, you do this program, right? To vision-based philanthropy. We have a vision where every single community member has free access to the arts, right? Or every single third grader gets a class in dance for gym their entire year because that builds self-confidence, right? That's a vision. And if you can give to a vision and connect with the ultimate why, why are you doing this? Why does it matter? And why do I care about this? Then that kind of unlocks a larger gifts, but be not as restricted philanthropy, right? So We can still talk about the impact of that community program that you so deeply value. But we talk about it in the grand scheme of things in that, again, every child deserves free access to the arts. Every child deserves a safe space where they can be creative and express themselves.
Building Donor Relationships
00:22:48
Speaker
And that's the vision. And if you give to that, it's not pigeonholing it into a specific program.
00:22:54
Speaker
but then what we can do as fundraisers is talk to that donor and say we served 10,000 third graders this past year and what we found is their grades were better and you know all of these things so we can still tie it, tie the impact of their giving to what they're passionate about again without pigeonholing it to one specific thing and kind of tying the organization's hands with what they can do with the money in the first place. That's huge. And I love that you said that because I do see a lot of companies and just on Facebook posts like that I see pop up where it's very much like, please give us money because we're a nonprofit. Right. And that is the full verbiage. And it's like, we get why it's important. We understand why it's important to us, but your audience does not know that. They need you to make it important to them.
00:23:44
Speaker
he yeah So it's not enough just to say, we don't have any money, please give us more. That's not really triggering enough to a person who is coming across a lot of asks every single day. Most of us are asked for donations to share our income many times a day. And we're happy to make choices. We can't give to every single thing. So you've got to trigger something in them that says, oh wow, this is really important to me. This is actually something that makes me feel something. I feel like good about this. And so it does take a little more finesse, but it's very, very worth it because like we've been saying this, donations are a huge driver for our company's success.
00:24:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It's so important to be able to find that thing that connects a donor to the mission and the why. Two things you made me think of when you were talking is, one, earlier you said, you know, we're a nonprofit, give us money because we need money. Terrible ask. We call this making your problems your donor's problems. It's not their problem that you don't have any money. That's your problem. That's not a compelling ask. And then the other thing, like you said, everyone gets so many asks every single day. Email is just flooded. Email is the new junk mail for like snail mail, right? Now to stand out, you should send somebody something in the actual mail.
00:25:00
Speaker
That's so true. Right, right. But you get flooded with asks, and sure, they're all worthy causes, but the thing that's really important is that you should find the ones that are meaningful to you, right? And at the end of the day, as fundraisers, our job is not to convince every single person everywhere to care about the organization that we work for because that's just not realistic. First of all, there's a place for everyone and there's enough dollars to go around, right? So our job is actually to find the people that already care about our organization and then help make a deeper connection and form a relationship with them and help them see the impact of their dollars, of their generosity, and of their relationship with the organization throughout the years. How do we find these people?
00:25:49
Speaker
A million dollar question, right? Actually, it's simpler than you think. So if you are a ballet company, again, going back to ticket sales, you have an entire audience of people that purchase tickets. And you can look at that data and see, you know, how many people bought one ticket to one show for the entire year. But then who are the people that bought a ticket to every single show, right? You have your season ticket subscribers or people who buy single tickets to every single show or people who buy multiple tickets to the same performance night after night because they loved it so much. So that is literally a captive audience.
00:26:31
Speaker
And that's where you start. That's just one avenue. Of course, there's people who give to you already, but look for the data. Who has been giving to us consistently for three to five years? Who has been buying tickets consistently for three to five years? And those are the people that you should pick up the phone and call. And it starts with a get to know you. It starts with a question. Hey, you've been coming to every single show since three years ago tell me a little bit more about that what makes you come and the same thing with the donor hey you've been you know giving to our annual finder you give us a contribution every single january tell me more about that why us
00:27:11
Speaker
And then you get to learn from the donor why they're so interested. So it's it's really just a natural conversation, right? You already have something in common. They are there. And so that's where you really start to kind of have that conversation, get to know them a bit better, and then figure out What is the best way to keep them connected and engaged? right Some people love coming to receptions and things like that. Some people hate that. Some people like just taking a walk, going to coffee. Some people like meeting one of the artists. like There's so many things that you can do to help connect a person to an organization and to something that they're passionate about.
Balancing Art and Finance in Dance
00:27:51
Speaker
That's really good. And I think that's such good data to have just moving forward too, even for like a simple Facebook post. Like, wow, I've heard many people say that they want to come to the show because of this thing. This is what keeps them coming back. Let's use that. Yep, exactly. When it comes to dance ticketing solutions, I have tried them all and honestly, none can hold a candle to DRT, the premier online ticketing provider for dance studios. Whether you're planning a recital, a summer camp, or the Nutcracker, DRT is the one I recommend over and over again. So what sets them apart? DRT offers turnkey solutions and custom ticketing sites completely free. Plus, their dedicated customer service team works extended hours to support both you in the dance studio and your patrons.
00:28:35
Speaker
I have been lucky enough to experience their incredible customer service firsthand and I am always blown away. No request is too crazy. They always find a way to make it happen so that you can sit back and focus on the dance scene knowing your customers are in great hands. Are you ready to get started? Tap the link in the show notes to learn more and be sure to mention that the brainy ballerina referred you. I feel like a lot of people in general don't want to send out surveys. They're really weird about surveys because they're like, I don't want someone to tell me how to run my business. I don't want to get negative feedback. Like I hear this a lot from a lot of different kind of companies. You don't have to take everyone's input. You're just gathering data. Like I think sending out a survey after a performance or after anything you put on any kind of events is huge to get that feedback.
00:29:19
Speaker
you may hear the same thing how much in times and be like, Oh, wow, we really need to look into that. That really was exactly bothersome for people. And people don't necessarily come out and tell you like you get the phone calls. There are people yeah always tell you what's wrong, but not everyone will unless they're prodded and given a chance to say, Well, actually, I didn't really like this, or this was bothersome. It took away from my experience, whatever it is. Yep. And then again, if you get some random off the coffee answer, and you're like, I don't know, that just seems like it's not really tracking. That's fine. You don't have to listen to all of it, but it's good to have the information. It's more power for your company. Absolutely. I'm glad you brought up surveys. like They are such an important tool for collecting that information, like you said. and It's interesting because people always assume that you're going to get so much negative feedback, but most of the time you you get a ton of positive feedback as well. and What's really telling, again, you have season tickets or you offer a lot of different like programmings like Q and&A after the show and so many organizations do like events and programs until they're blue in the face. And a really, really good thing to measure through surveys is what events do you care about? And that can help you run your business more effectively, right? Because if you see that, I mean, A, through attendance, but B, if people are responding and saying, you know, I really, really like the Q and&A after the shows.
00:30:42
Speaker
but then people are they're not really responding as well to you know some other type of reception or program, then that program won't probably won't be missed if you you know refocus your resources into the things that people really want. right So that's how I've used surveys in the past with my career is thinking like, okay, we tried a couple of different types of events. What's working? And not just attendance, but what do people really like? Ask them. I mean, that's, there's so many times when people ask me like, well, how do we find out if this, this, ask them, right? People like to give their opinion. And again, don't always assume that their opinion is going to be negative. In our culture, when people write reviews a lot of the time, it's either someone who's really pissed off or really, really happy.
00:31:27
Speaker
But if you just send out a survey, most of the time you get the middle range. And like you said, there's always going to be those off the cuff people who like really, really hate something or really, really love something that nobody else does. And that's okay. Like you said, you don't have to follow every single person's advice. You shouldn't. But what you should do is collect that data and take a look at the patterns and then use that to inform your decision-making process moving forward. Should we continue this event? Do people attend and do people like it? That's a really, really good question to ask. It will help you plan for the future and again, plan with your resources better. No, that's really good because I think as artists especially, we're like, we really love this thing that we're doing and it's feeding something in our soul and we want to do it and so maybe our audience isn't so into it. So there's definitely that happy medium between like, you need to put out
00:32:22
Speaker
great arts. And that's why a lot of companies do the Nutcracker. Oh, 100%. Some dancers love it. But if you ask a lot of dancers, they're like, Nutcracker season again. Yep. Because we've done it a million years. It's kind of just like, here we go again. But you have to drive that revenue because we know it sells tickets. We know people want to come see it. And it's going to help fund maybe some of the more passion projects or more like experimental performances you want to put on that your audience doesn't really
Community Engagement for Dancers
00:32:49
Speaker
know about. You don't know if they're going to buy a ticket to it. But you now have this option because you've driven revenue in a different way. 100%. Absolutely. Yeah. There's definitely the like art for art's sake. right We want to do this because we believe in this art. We believe in the message that it's portraying, but it might not be the most popular thing in the community. And again, you can't force everyone to love it.
00:33:11
Speaker
But what you can do is provide an entry point to something that is popular, like the Nutcracker, right? It drives revenue, but it really is that entry point for so many people into the ballet world. And I am also one that's like, oh, the Nutcracker, whatever. But I started to really realize that this is great for audiences because this is something that people go see and most people can connect with it and they know what it is and they love it. And so if there is ah a way to capture that audience and even if you convert a small percentage of people to come to one more show that's different and not the Nutcracker, then that's how you start kind of building that audience for maybe more of the, you know, art for art's sake.
00:33:54
Speaker
Yeah. Or take a class in your school. Like how many people is their story that they saw in a cracker when they were a little kid and they just wanted to be a sugarplum fairy? Like we hear that over and over again because there's something so special and magical about it and it gets people excited about dance. And that's the other thing too is, you know, within your school, not every single dancer you train or work with is going to want to become a professional dancer. But the hope is that they're going to fall in love with ballet and want to keep going to the performances or supporting through donations or whatever it is. yeah So there's so many different ways, like you said, avenues into becoming a supporter of the art. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that you said that as well. Because yeah, at the end of the day, we are in this field because we
00:34:37
Speaker
love the arts and we see the power of the arts and creativity and how it can just help a person grow and flourish. And so, yes, at the end of the day, people have different reasons for coming to a dance class or going to some sort of dance performance. The point is is that they do have that reason. Ask them, it right? Ask them what it is. And you'll find that they'll tell you their story and it's going to be a really beautiful one. And there's a reason why that they love the art form so much. So it's just, it's about building that connection and realizing that everybody, everyone has that art story and the entry point might be the nutcracker and that's
Key Actions for Financial Stability in Nonprofits
00:35:15
Speaker
okay.
00:35:15
Speaker
Yeah, we might have already covered this throughout the course of our conversation, but I'm curious if you had to say three main things that you want to see all nonprofit dance companies doing. If you could like wave a magic wand and they would all do these three things today to become more financially stable, what would you say? Oh my goodness. Well, some of it is what we have talked about before, but it's it's very important. One is to balance out your artistic staff with your operations staff. And I'm not saying an equal one-to-one. I'm just saying there has to be a healthy balance, right? So that way you can run your business effectively.
00:35:51
Speaker
in order to keep producing the art and working with the community and all of that. So that's one. Two, I think is really that like transactional based asking to vision based asking. Talk about your vision and the why because you know what it is. Everyone has it. So rather than saying, will you give us a hundred dollars to pay for one pair of pointe shoes? You translate that more into, you know, our dancers are athletes and they need the best support. in order to continue producing this art and you know all of that. It's just taking it from a very specific ask to something that's broader. What would be the third thing? That's a good question. I think listening listening to your audience and your donors and just keep asking. Don't be afraid to ask what people think.
00:36:40
Speaker
and ask their opinion and ask them to tell you why they keep coming back or why they decided to come in the first place or give you a donation in the first place. Listening is extremely powerful. And again, you do not have to follow every single person's every single recommendation. But at the end of the day, you are there to serve a community. That's your mission. So you should get to know your community and understand what they want and what they need. Yeah. For you know a huge company like New York City, LA, their are budget's $100 million dollars a year. yeah They can make a lot of these things happen. right They have the infrastructure, they have the staff, but for a lot of small companies, they might have the drive, they might have the passion and want to implement these things and do better business, but they do not have the manpower.
Dancers' Role in Company Success
00:37:31
Speaker
yep and there's this hump I feel like to get through for a lot of companies. Absolutely. Yeah. And so if you're a dancer in the company and you were like, I want to get paid more. I want to be stable. Is there anything that you think dancers can do to help contribute to the success of their company? Yeah, I honestly, I love this question so much because what we talk about a lot with our clients is building a culture of philanthropy. In most organizations, there's a development director, someone whose job is solely to fundraise, but everyone plays a part in that. And it's not just their job, it's everyone's responsibility to somehow contribute to that culture of philanthropy, right? So as a dancer, and I know you all do this, I do, But be open when people say, hey, we're going to have so-and-so come and watch rehearsal today. Do you mind talking to them a couple of minutes afterwards? They really want to meet you. Or going to the galas and the fundraisers and the things like that and actually talking with donors. And it it doesn't have to be buttering them up or anything like that. I know sometimes people feel awkward about it. But again, ask them why they support, right? I know I keep going back to that, but it's such a simple question and it helps
00:38:46
Speaker
It just helps people open up and then you can have a conversation. So I would say, as dancers, just be open and be willing to talk with donors, talk with other people in the community, talk to audience members, right? Because that's how you'll continue to build your audience and and your support. community. I know in a lot of small companies, you know, we've experienced this at MCB and I know a lot of companies that size do this. There might be some part-time roles that you can fill as a dancer on the operation side, running social media or running the email marketing campaigns or something like that.
00:39:22
Speaker
Again, if you are interested in that and if you have some skills or you're interested in building up your skills in that area, I would say that's something where you can both contribute to the success of the organization in that way and help them grow in that way, but ask to get paid for it, right? Like they should be paying someone to do this job. And if they can't pay a separate full-time person on the, you know, on the operations end, why not pay a dancer who has those skills and has that drive to learn and help right you might as well do that so i think in smaller companies you know we always say like you wear a million hats and it's true and that's great but always ask to get paid for that right you shouldn't be doing all of these things for free because then we're kind of furthering the problem
00:40:08
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And I like what you said about talking to donors and having almost like a script, because I felt like that was a really hard thing for me. i yeah If someone come to me and wanted to talk to me, I'm very like happy to do that. But for me to go up to somebody at a gala and start talking to them felt very scary. But even just what you said of going up and being like, why do you come to the show? How long have you been coming? What was your favorite part of the show? like Do you have a a great memory of coming to performance that you want to share? like Just those little scripts? that you can have in your head is just really helpful to break the ice. And then you'll realize it's not so scary. Because I feel like a lot of times I would be just really nervous around a lot of people, these galas are very important people in the community. And I would just be very nervous. But they're just people. They just want to chat to you. They're just people and honestly,
00:40:55
Speaker
they look up to you, right? That's the thing you have to remember as well is like they look at you in awe on the stage doing something that they could never do or or maybe they've done in their past lives, but they're so in awe and respect the dancers that they do want to talk to you and I
Recap and Future Opportunities in Dance
00:41:13
Speaker
totally get it. I'm actually the same way. I know it's kind of weird because my career has been in fundraising, but I also get really nervous going up to somebody that I don't know at an event. Actually, those are the questions that I started to, like you said, kind of have talking points or gold in the back of my mind is just ask why. What did you like about this? What didn't you like about this? I had a donor one time when I worked at a museum.
00:41:38
Speaker
that told me every single thing they hated about the exhibition that they just saw. And you know what? It was a strange conversation, but I learned a lot about that person. They don't like that type of art. Great, that's fine. But they said, you know, but I loved the one that you did before and I'm going to keep coming back. Yeah, having those little talking points, I think that's a great tip for any organization is if you're asking you know your dancers and your artists to come to an event and you know to mingle with with people, give them some talking points or give them a couple questions that they can ask to get conversation going.
00:42:14
Speaker
This has been so helpful. And just to kind of sum up everything we've talked about, I think the biggest things that we've discussed are the fact that a nonprofit business is still a business. You have to make money. You cannot be stuck in the Starbeat artist mentality. If you want to run a successful business, you're putting your money back into the business. You make more money. You can pay your artists more. You can do further your mission more. There's no downside to making more money as a nonprofit. even though in our heads we think we can't make money because then we're going to lose our status. That's not the fact. And just going back to the biggest thing is asking questions, listening to your community and being really collaborative. I think that as dancers, we are a collaborative group and we can get stuck with only collaborating with
00:42:59
Speaker
ourselves. yeah We get stuck in our bubble in the studio all day long, and literally blood, sweat and tears on the floor. And we know why it's so important. We feel it in our souls and our bodies, but our audience doesn't know that unless we can find a way to share that with them asking those questions being open. Before we wrap up, I would just love to hear if you had a piece of advice to give to dancers who are pursuing a dance career or even dancers who are like, This is interesting. I never knew I could get into this side of the industry. Like, what would you say to a young person out there? It's great to have a plan. And it's great to have an idea of what you want to do. And you should have that and pursue it. And you should be very open to where it takes you and where life takes you because it's never going to work out exactly the way that you want it to. And sometimes like me, it'll take
00:43:55
Speaker
a very, very different turn. Look for that and be open to it and know that life will lead you in a direction that will make you fulfilled and successful. And so whether that is continuing down the dance world, but maybe it's not dancing for the exact company you thought or doing the exact type of rep, maybe you start to realize that, oh, I'm really good at contemporary or I'm really good at modern or you know, where I'm really really good at ballet and I should keep doing that. Or someone like me who was dead set on being a ballet dancer and then there were a lot of signs that pointed to I actually didn't want it but it took a while for me to realize that that was okay and that I'm actually doing something that I'm way better at than I was when I was dancing and I am really fulfilled and I am supporting the arts and furthering dance companies so
00:44:48
Speaker
I think just be open just because you thought you were going to do something and you end up doing something else or you get pulled in a different direction and you try doing the social media for a company and you realize that you love that and you're really good at it. see where that takes you and be okay with that. Yeah, that's really good. If anyone out there is listening to this and they're like, I want to pick your brain more or I want to hire you because you're amazing at what you do, can you tell us how we can reach out to you? My company is called Creative Fundraising Advisors. You can visit our website, creativefundraisingadvisors dot.com and there's a way to contact me on there and follow us on
00:45:28
Speaker
LinkedIn and Instagram. We have an amazing staff that are all equally passionate about helping nonprofits in the arts, but also in other sectors as well. So always happy to talk and brainstorm. One of my favorite things to do. Thank you so much Joanne. This has been very insightful and I'm really grateful for your time today. Thank you, Caitlin. I loved this. Me too.
00:45:53
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too. I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Valorina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.