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27. Teaching Ballet in the 21st Century with Deborah Engerman
91 Plays2 days ago
Deborah Engerman is a ballet teacher, coach, choreographer and published author of Let’s Talk About Fifth: Teaching Ballet in the 21st Century. For over three decades, her students have gone on to dance with professional companies including American Ballet Theatre, Universal Ballet, Vienna Opera Ballet, Nashville Ballet, Barcelona Ballet Theatre, Complexions Contemporary Ballet as well as on Broadway.
Deborah is a passionate and caring educator and I am thrilled to share her wisdom with you today. My biggest takeaways from this episode included the importance of fundamentals, asking for help, and chasing after what you really want in life. I highly recommend her book and this conversation to every dance teacher who wants to become a more well-rounded and effective educator!
Key Moments:
- Early dance training [2:11]
- How Deborah chose to make teaching dance a career [5:20]
- Her very first teaching job [6:17]
- How Deborah’s teaching has evolved over the years [7:50]
- How she continues to learn as a veteran educator [16:10]
- Deborah’s secret to getting dancers to the professional level [21:30]
- The process of writing a book about the art of ballet [30:02]
- What Deborah hopes people will gain from reading her book [37:49]
- Her biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [41:14]
Connect with Deborah
DEBORAH’S WEBSITE: www.deborahengerman.com
FACEBOOK: facebook.com/DeborahEngermanBallet
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/deborahengerman_balletteacher
Links and Resources:
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
Join the Brainy Ballerina Book Club
Get your copy of Let’s Talk About Fifth: Teaching Ballet in the 21st Century (affiliate link)
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
1-1 CAREER MENTORING: book your complimentary career call
Questions/comments? Email me at [email protected]
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Transcript
Caitlin's Journey into Teaching
00:00:03
Speaker
I do remember the very first time I ever taught in my life, although it wasn't a job. It was part of my college experience. Within 15 minutes of that first class, I knew within 15 minutes that I was a teacher by nature. like I knew that. I didn't want to do it. I really didn't. I fought her. And I thought, I'm not a teacher. I'm not a teacher. And she said, yes, you really are. You just don't know it yet.
Podcast for Aspiring Dancers
00:00:29
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:01:03
Speaker
Welcome to the Brainy Valorina podcast.
Introduction to Deborah Ingerman
00:01:06
Speaker
I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Deborah Ingerman. Deborah is a ballet teacher, coach, choreographer, and published author of Let's Talk About Fifth, Teaching Ballet in the 21st Century.
00:01:18
Speaker
For over three decades, her students have gone on to dance with professional companies, including American Ballet Theater, Universal Ballet, Vienna Opera Ballet, Nashville Ballet, Barcelona Ballet Theater, Complexious Contemporary Ballet, as well as on Broadway. Deborah is a passionate and caring educator, and I am so thrilled with the opportunity to share her wisdom with you today. Hi, Deborah.
00:01:39
Speaker
Hi, Caitlin. Thank you so much for having me and for that very kind intro. Of course, I know it's always strange to hear someone talk about you.
00:01:51
Speaker
Right? Yes, for sure. For sure. I was like, no, I'm just a ballet teacher. That's all. You've done so much throughout the course of your career. And I'm sure, you know, when you first started out, you didn't necessarily think you would maybe do all these things. So I'd love to just start from the very beginning and hear about how you got to where you are
Deborah's Ballet Beginnings
00:02:08
Speaker
today. First thing I would love to learn about you is why did you take your very first dance class?
00:02:13
Speaker
Well, my mom, my mom took me to ballet class when I was five for the first time. I was super flexible, but I was the first born. So she thought that was normal. Like I used to sit in my crib in splits against the railing, I guess. And my mom thought that was normal.
00:02:29
Speaker
And then at some point I got a younger sister who was probably of regular person flexibility. And my mom thought something was wrong with her because she couldn't do splits and took her to the doctor and the doctor assured her that my sister was fine and that I was unusual and that she should perhaps put me into ballet or gymnastics.
00:02:50
Speaker
because I would probably do well. But I did take a little bit of gymnastics, although really my heart was always with the dancing. But that is how I ended up in my first ballet class. And what was your training like growing up? I started at more of a recreational school until I was 10 or 11. And then I was still at a school that was like a step up in the rigorous nature of the training, but it still wasn't a professional training school. And after a couple of years, the director said, I really think you should consider attending what was then called Baltimore Ballet of the Maryland
Transition to Professional Ballet
00:03:23
Speaker
Ballet School. It's not at all related to there was a school.
00:03:26
Speaker
now called Baltimore Ballet and there's no relationship between the two but this is back in the 80s and he said I really think you should be at you know a ballet school. So I think I was 11 or 12. I transferred to the Baltimore Ballet of the former Maryland Ballet and it was an R.A.D. school and I took my R.A.D. classes along with regular classes and took some exams. I got injured my senior year of high school so I didn't dance for a while. I thought I would not be a dancer And I didn't come from a world of dancers or artists. My dad, he's retired, but he was an attorney. My mother was a school teacher. She's retired as well. Nobody in my family is any kind of a dancer or artist. So I just thought that's what I do when I'm young and I have to grow up and get a grown up job. And I went to college and I thought I had
00:04:16
Speaker
quit dancing. While I was in college there was a dance company, a small dance company in college. After a semester or two I was miserable so I joined the dance company and then by like literally a year or two later I was president of the dance company and you know fully active in that although I did finish my non-dance degree in international policy development so not very interesting in the dance world.
Finding Passion After Tragedy
00:04:41
Speaker
After college I thought I was going to quit dance as well I did stop dancing again for a year or two and I had a personal tragedy that made me really think life. At that point decided no I'm not going to live my life according to what everybody else says and what all the other people's rules about what makes a valuable life and what I really want to be doing is dancing and I went back to Towson University. who I have a great dance program. I didn't fully matriculate because I already had a degree but I took all the courses necessary
00:05:11
Speaker
in their dance education department. That's how I ended up teaching. I got a great education there as far as how to teach. So when you were trying to figure out this next path in the dance world, did you think you wanted to dance professionally or did you think like, no, i I want to go straight into teaching. That's where my passion lies. I knew that I wanted to teach. I do choreograph some. I did consider a career more heavily weighted towards the choreography.
00:05:37
Speaker
until I realized that there are people who are far better choreographers than I am and I'm not going to have a career there. So I knew I wanted to go into teaching. I knew I wanted to go into teaching, which is why I chose dance education as opposed to the dance performance. At some point while I was there, I became an assistant teacher for a local teacher and just went from there. But I always knew Not all my life, but when I was in that program, I definitely went with the intention of being a teacher. And what was your very first teaching job like? I have to be really honest. It was a very long time ago, so I don't remember every single moment. I remember my interview for my very first brought me in for an interview. I think they spoke with me for a few moments. And then the woman asked me to do a grand plié in second.
00:06:29
Speaker
And then she hired me on the spot after probably a second. I remember that. I remember I loved it right away. When I was originally in college with the dance company, we did have company classes regularly. The director of the program basically forced me to teach company class sometimes because way back then I thought I would never be a teacher.
00:06:54
Speaker
And I do remember the very first time I ever taught in my life, although it wasn't a job. It was part of my college experience. Within 15 minutes of that first class, I knew within 15 minutes that I was a teacher by nature. Like I knew that. I didn't want to do it. I really didn't. I fought her.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I thought, I'm not a teacher. I'm not a teacher. And she said, yes, you really are. You just don't know it yet. I remember I was very nervous because they were my peers. I thought, I really don't, I don't want to do this. And she said, well, you're going to. yeah I didn't have the knowledge and the experience that I have now, but even then I felt like everything came very naturally.
00:07:32
Speaker
I felt more myself than I did in any other moments of my life. Like I knew immediately this was where I was supposed to be, even though I left it for a while after that, but I did have that moment and that thing. And so when I went on and got my first professional teaching job where I was actually paid, I felt like this is what I'm supposed to be doing right away.
00:07:52
Speaker
And how has your teaching evolved over the years from when you first started into now? It's evolved more than once. When I first started teaching, I was really blessed. My first professional teaching job was at a place where there were students who were very enthusiastic, there were almost no behavior issues, and everything seemed so easy. Since then, I've taught at places where the students weren't as enthusiastic about ballet and I was the mean ballet teacher and so I evolved at those places to actually be more structured just in the way I conducted classes and my expectations for the students. And I have evolved again
00:08:37
Speaker
because I've let go of some of that. I'm still, I'm a very demanding teacher, but first of all, I have found myself at two lovely schools. I'm sitting in one of them right now. I don't in any way need my students to want to all be ballerinas or professional dancers. I don't need that at all, but I do need people who love to dance and study ballet because they just enjoy dancing.
00:09:03
Speaker
I do not enjoy personally working with students who study ballet because they have to, because they want a higher extension or a competition or for whatever reason. So I found myself in places like that. I've let go. It's not that I don't have a structured class, but I don't have to be as outwardly. I don't know if stern is the right word, but I can have certain expectations that the students will know how to carry themselves in class and know not to just chatter through the entire class. All the things that we expect in LA class and I'm at schools where that is the norm again. And so I actually have again evolved to kind of be less strict in my demand because it's natural to them. I know that from the beginning, one thing that changed, it changed about probably 15 or 20 years ago is that I decided
00:09:58
Speaker
And I know a lot of people are thinking this way. I'm not in any way unique in this, but I realized that my trainings, you know, and I was had great training and a lot of us who are over a certain age may have had great training, but we were never taught like we would get told turnout, lift, lift up, do all these things. And nobody ever explained to me the anatomy of what was going on or taught me certain conditioning exercises.
00:10:26
Speaker
that I could do to improve my turnout. For me personally, shoulders are always an issue. How to move my body to hold that in a certain place. And so early on in my teaching career, I just completely changed the way I approach the beginning of class. And I start with conditioning exercises. And I'm very verbal about this exercise is to help you develop X, you know, whether it be turnout or how to hold your arms supported from the back to be all the supported or whatever the issue may be. And at the time, there weren't many resources about how to do this. I basically made up my own exercises, which are end up being the same. I mean, I'm not unique at this point, but back then there just weren't a lot of resources. And that is one
Adapting Ballet Techniques
00:11:20
Speaker
way I developed it. I really believe
00:11:22
Speaker
especially because here in America, we don't x-ray kids and take them to the doctor and make sure that their bodies are ideal for finding these classical lines, which are not natural at all. However, I think it's still incumbent upon us as teachers to help our students, regardless of their body type, find in a healthy way the classical lines as best as their body can do. That is a really big change I need within the first like five to seven years of my training. I wanted to be very clear about how to do what they needed to do and to never say as much as I can control, never, but to never say to a student to do this or do that without being able to break it down into something clear and easy to follow.
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah, I love that because I remember as a student getting so frustrated with that. And I remember having a teacher in college who would always say to me like, Caitlin, don't fall out of your pirouette. And I was always just like, how? right Like, yeah, I know I'm not supposed to fall out of it. Please tell me how. And when I started teaching, I agree. That was one of my biggest things was that and I'm a Y person. Like I need to know why for anything in my life, I cannot get motivated.
00:12:40
Speaker
to learn to do if I don't have a reason. I always needed to know that ah why behind it or like how right give me some information and so the teacher I really was like I'm never gonna tell someone don't fall over they know that one thing I found is there are some teachers who I don't know how to say it exactly I guess sometimes you have a teacher who just had dancing was so natural to them and they went on to have a professional career pretty quickly and everything just kind of came easily and then they retire and they fall into teaching. And so when they're trying to explain something, they have a hard time because for them, it was so like easy. And there's those of us who kind of had to like grind to get there. And we need to know how and why there's a lot of people who become teachers just because it seems like the natural progression from a career I can't dance to and where I might as well teach, but there's so much more to it than having been a good dancer.
00:13:38
Speaker
I agree with you 100%. I don't just believe this. I know this to be true, that the skill of dancing is not the same thing as teaching. Now some people are fantastic at both. They're not mutually exclusive, but they're definitely not mutually inclusive. Although I never had the exact body type of the dancer on the outside, I had a lot of things that did come easily.
00:14:00
Speaker
you know, I had the turnout, I had the feet, like I could do so much easily. And I think that may be why the first few years of my teaching, after a few years realized that I wasn't explaining these things well. And there were some things that yes, like my shoulders, I held my shoulders wrong most of my life. oh And I could never quite figure out what to do with them. Until honestly, I learned how to control my shoulders and yoga.
00:14:29
Speaker
But what I've learned to do is to create some conditioning exercises that can help ballet students or any dance student with their shoulders, et cetera. I'm a far better teacher than I ever was a dancer um by far. Like
Dancer vs. Teacher Skills
00:14:44
Speaker
there's no doubt. You know, I could hold my own and I could do my thing, but I'm definitely a better teacher. So I agree that I think sometimes people think it's a natural progression, but it's a whole new skill to learn.
00:14:56
Speaker
Does the mere thought of a audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule? I've been there and I totally get it. As dancers, we spend hundreds of hours honing our technique and artistry. But when it comes to figuring out how to put together a resume or what to expect in a professional audition, we're often left to figure it out ourselves. That's why I put together the ultimate audition guide.
00:15:24
Speaker
This is your one-stop shop for everything you need to tackle professional company auditions with ease. No more spending hours Googling and trying to piece together a somewhat coherent audition package. With this guide, you'll be ready to conquer audition season like a true professional.
00:15:40
Speaker
We're talking resumes, head shots, dance photos, dance reels, plus info on how to find auditions, what to wear, what to expect, how to budget, mindset tips, you name it, it is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultimate Audition Guide and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional. Beyond college and having a degree in dance education,
00:16:08
Speaker
Do you continue to do, continue education or like take new courses? How do you stay fresh with all of it? I haven't done a lot lately and I definitely want to. Some of it is just life and scheduling and trying to figure out how to do things, but I definitely need to discipline myself more to do that. Maybe not certifications, but I've attended teacher coaching workshops. This is just one example years ago, like Prix de Lausanne.
00:16:37
Speaker
There are basically teacher workshops where you could observe their coaches working with students. The teachers were permitted in to watch and take notes. I did have a mentorship where I was being mentored when I was a younger teacher who was very generous with allowing me to observe her classes, to pick her brain and watch.
00:17:00
Speaker
everything she did. and I did that for a couple years and I learned a lot through that. I feel like I learned so much from other teachers who are out there doing it. There's a teacher I admire a lot. I've been known to just ask, can I watch them teach a few classes? Because I'm so inspired by other teachers and I learn like things and I will ask, I saw you do this, like this exercise where you said it this way, do you mind if I steal that? You know, of course.
00:17:28
Speaker
as most teachers are, they're always very generous about it. So do that. But I have to admit, I haven't taken advantage of any of the, there seems to be an abundance right now of things even online. And I would like to definitely take advantage of some of those things. Yeah, I agree. But I also do agree that I've learned probably the most from observing and being mentored.
00:17:51
Speaker
My dear friend, Carrie Euchre. Well, you know Carrie. Yeah. She's the first name taught me how to teach because I remember when I first started teaching at Missouri Contemporary Ballet, it was the first year they opened the school when I first started dancing there and she was the director. And so at first she put me on like open classes. And then also I think some creative movement classes kind of getting my feet wet a little bit. And then she was like, okay, I want you to take over my ballet one class, but I need you to come observe it for like think it was like eight weeks or something like that was the best thing that anyone's ever done for me as far as teaching because that is a place where I think a lot of teachers struggle and I would have struggled if I hadn't had that at that age because the valley won there and I think it's similar for a lot of schools it's like eight years old they're just starting at the bar they're just starting to work in turnouts whereas i before we were doing a lot of stuff in parallel the way
00:18:43
Speaker
she taught me that the progression and how to just go from square one, I still like teach that class the same way. Just was like the biggest gift I was given as a teacher was to learn how to teach that class. I feel like once I learned how to teach Valley One, I could do all the other things. I could see the progression. And I have to say like I'm not super trained in teaching anybody. Somebody eight but developmentally younger than that. I don't have a lot of education in teaching them. My dance education was geared towards more of the technical like when they're ready for the technique. But I agree that once you learn how to structure a class, that helps a lot. I had a great professor at Towson teaching us how to structure classes and literally a class on it was how to teach. And it was a whole semester called like teaching K through 12 dance. I learned how to structure a class. I got some of the best advice from her and I still use her advice. Things like try to be able to explain everything
00:19:42
Speaker
three different ways. as People learn differently. So if you're asking for a pirouette when you're first teaching and try to explain anatomically what is happening, then also kinesthetically have them move through space. Also, can you find a metaphor like for a pirouette, the metaphor of a top that as soon as something's off kilter, it will fall. So the more upright you can get your body or turnout. I talk about the old time barbershop red and white striped poles that rotate. Some people say candy cane so that metaphor or also be able to explain literally what's going on in the hip sockets. That has benefited me to this day. I try to make sure that I can explain any concept or step and as many ways as possible knowing that different people will hear it.
00:20:35
Speaker
and react to it differently. That's helped me a lot. And she also told me to try to say every student's name, at least once during every class. I do that to this day. To me, what's underlying that is that these are humans, these are people. And you have to remember that. And in saying their name at least once, I don't know it does. It reminds me like this is a person. But yeah, I agree. I feel like the most that I've gotten is when I've been mentored by other teachers, or again, even to this day, I'm not above asking somebody if I can observe some of their classes if I think there are many teachers from whom I think I can learn. Yeah, definitely.
Success in Training Professionals
00:21:14
Speaker
You've trained so many dancers who have gone on to have really impressive professional careers. What's your secrets? I really believe that some of this is being in the right place at the right time. I'm not saying I'm not a good teacher, but I do believe sometimes you're just lucky.
00:21:31
Speaker
and that you walk into a new school at the right time, just sometimes things happen that way. I do believe that there are things that we can't control and that it just works out that way. That's one. I focus on fundamentals, but I know most of them are not going to be professional ballet dancers. Many will not even be professional dancers, but some will go on and have more contemporary careers.
00:21:58
Speaker
et cetera, or there'll be ballet dancers for short a short period of time. But I try to make sure they have the fundamentals meeting. How do you align your body? How do you use your legs? How do you use your turnout? How do you find a good relevé? All these fundamental things of dance. And I continue to focus on that even through my advanced classes. Now I don't spend as much time focusing on that, but I don't let kids get away with the sloppy little things, especially when you get into a professional career.
00:22:25
Speaker
People get away with a certain sloppiness and I don't. I will stop people even in advance if something's off that shouldn't be off. I'm demanding about making sure you do things exactly the way I ask in class. What I explain is when you go to an audition, you are not going to be the only great dancer. There will be other really great dancers. And so if you can show that you have a great ability to listen, people are going to want to work with you.
00:22:55
Speaker
So do the exercise as given. So I'm a stickler about that. And that's as far as just the foundation, but I also, I encourage my students to dream and I tell them very specifically that they are the people who gets to choose what their life was going to be about. And I encourage them to push themselves and go chase after what it is they want in life. This is something that you really want.
00:23:24
Speaker
you should go for it. And even if you don't get exactly what you want, you may find yourself someplace that's really ideal for you. So I think that's part of it. I don't know. I do think a lot of it is luck. Like maybe I just have been lucky and had a lot of really gifted students. And then once you have a few who are successful, a lot of people want to work with you. I mean, that definitely happens, but I do feel like I really focus on fundamentals. I think that gets ignored.
00:23:51
Speaker
far too much and I've watched dancers who can pick their legs so high and they can jump so high and do all these huge leaps but their foots not pointed or their arms are out of control like in some crazy position and they are not choosing the shape of their arms and they're not choosing how they use their feet So I really believe that if you focus on the basic fundamentals of dance, that you give students the tools to then choose how they use everything and they can choose these things and things don't get out of control. So maybe that plus healthy dose of pushing to go for it. Don't hold yourself back. Yeah. And like you said, you know, you go to a magician and it's so true that there are going to be a lot of great dancers and what sets you apart a lot of times is that basic technique and attention to detail.
00:24:40
Speaker
doing the combination as it's given. And I have a sickler about this too. And I say the exact same thing as you because when you're getting hired into a company, they're not typically going to hire you as a principal dancer. They're hiring you for the quarter ballet. They want you to be able to do snow via swan, you know, be a Willie. And it's like, those are just the basic things. You got to be able to stay in line, do the port de bras the same. And if you can't do those things, it's not going to matter if you can do 20 pirouettes because that's not going to be asked of you.
00:25:10
Speaker
Right. If you want to get your foot in the door, this stuff is so important. I basically tell my students that when they're famous, when they're the famous star, they can do probably a lot of things however they want to do it. And nobody will blink at them. So when that happens, go for it. But until then, you have to do things exactly as you're asked for with the right arms, with the right counts, the right timing, there, you know, all that the port de bras, the April mall,
00:25:40
Speaker
and I am particularly bad. I also, I do push students and it can be hard about their sense of presence and even in the classroom. And everybody has their bad days. I understand that people aren't going to be a hundred percent of the time perfect with this, but in auditions, you have to come across as somebody that other people want to spend time with and work with. And so you have to practice bringing that into the classroom.
00:26:09
Speaker
because if you do not make that a practice, just like turning out and just like how do I devil pay, you don't practice the energy that you bring with you. I guarantee you that when anything goes the smallest bit raw, you will revert to your old habit. So if you have a habit of looking bored or withdrawn or sad or hiding in the classroom. If you don't practice bringing a different energy, and I don't mean a fake cheery, everything is thrilled energy, but a certain attentiveness to the room and a certain energy, at least of looking like you enjoy dancing somewhat. If you don't practice that when you are in a stressful situation,
00:26:52
Speaker
you will revert to your old habits that make it difficult for people to see the best parts of you. It's the same thing for performing. I always say that this is one of the lies that we tell ourselves that we say, Oh, when I get on stage, I'll perform some of the time. Sure. But if you don't practice that in the classroom, you will get on that stage. And yeah, some of the time you'll be fabulous. And when something goes a tiny bit wrong, you will Grimace a lot or you will fall off your game you revert to old habits and I see it happen That's why I know I don't just think I see it happen the very students who Sometimes refuse to make that effort in class and keep on telling themselves and me Oh, I'll be fine when I get on stage are the ones I watch when something if the spacings a little off on that stage and performance or I
00:27:47
Speaker
their footsteps a little bit to the wrong place or something's the smallest spinoff. You can see it all over them from the audience. that They look confused that sometimes they even just stop and freeze for half a second because they haven't made a practice out of being a performer in the classroom. And they think it's different and it's not. I like how you said when something goes wrong, not if.
00:28:12
Speaker
because something is going to go wrong. ah hundred It's live performance. There is no such thing as a perfect performance. It's not going to happen. I mean, if it does happen to you, hallelujah, bless you. That's wonderful. That's awesome. However, chances are it will never happen. That doesn't make you any less fabulous of a dancer. That is the nature of being a human being doing live performance. And you have to expect that and that is why you have to practice being a performer and finding something that you can bring in an honest way that is still a positive energy, even in classroom. If you're enjoying this episode, then you're going to love the Brandy Valerina Book Club.
00:28:59
Speaker
I have been an avid reader for as long as I can remember. I am fascinated by other stories and I'm always applying the lessons I learn in books to my own life, both personally and professionally. What started out as sharing my currently reading list on Instagram stories has since grown into a full fledged book club with hundreds of members. Each month we dive into a new story thoughtfully chosen to inspire and challenge us with original ideas and experiences.
00:29:26
Speaker
Whether you are an avid reader or looking to get into the habit, the Brainy Valorina Book Club welcomes you with open arms. It's free to join and there is no catch. Just a community of dance lovers who are eager to expand our knowledge, feed our souls, and make meaningful connections. Head on over to the show notes to join the book club today.
Inspiration Behind the Book
00:29:46
Speaker
I'd love to shift into talking more about your book. Let's talk about Fifth. It's such a cool book for anyone who hasn't read it yet. I highly recommend getting it. It has such tangible tools for ballet instructors for both technique and artistry, which is really cool.
00:30:00
Speaker
What was the process of getting this book together? Like what made you decide to put a book out into the world? How did that all start? I love reading other books about dance. It's changing a lot. But you know, 1015 years ago, there just weren't enough. And I always felt like, well, I just want to put an extra one out there for starters. That was part of it. I enjoy reading. I know we have that in common. We're both readers. So I enjoy reading.
00:30:25
Speaker
And I enjoy writing. When I was a young girl, 12, 15 years old, I would sometimes get the creative writing award at school or, you know, that kind of thing. Not for fiction. I don't think I could write a fiction. I don't think I have that strong an imagination. But for like when we would have to write essays or things like that. And I enjoy writing. It was always sort of in the back of my head.
00:30:48
Speaker
And then for a long time, I thought I was going to write a book with just a bunch of classroom exercises, like combinations, and I would scribble them on index cards. I had a Ziploc bag for like a decade, but I was so intimidated and I thought oh I can never actually write. I don't know. I just never really did it. One day I just decided I'm going to write this book and it turned out clearly very different than just some combinations for class.
00:31:16
Speaker
Because I guess, even though I'd had it in the back of my head for maybe a decade or two, by the time I actually sat down and started writing, which was in 2019, I had a lot more experience. So I had a lot more to say. I could not write on the computer at first. I had to write on my index cards, even the pros. And I would just start writing paragraphs about thoughts that I have. And I got a lot, a lot of index cards. And then I thought, well, how can I divide them? And one was clearly I had a bunch of exercises.
00:31:45
Speaker
And then I had a bunch of descriptions of the conditioning exercises that I like to do. And and then one seemed like philosophy. I mean, I eventually sat at the computer. I didn't write the entire book on index cards, but I had to get started that way, which when I look back, that's kind of weird, but that is what I did at first. I just started writing on index cards.
00:32:11
Speaker
until I had enough that I could group into chapters and then I took those and just sat at my computer and I made myself sit at my computer for anywhere between half an hour and two hours a day. I had what I thought was sort of a book. I knew nothing about the writing industry. And if I knew then what I knew now, and I'm so glad I did not know, I would not have written a book. It's so complex. It's kind of crazy, the publishing and writing industry these days. so I'm glad I didn't know. I'm not saying that I regret it but I'm glad because I would have been so intimidated but I thought I had this book. I just reached out. I joined some Facebook groups on social media for writers and I just started asking questions like how do you do this? What do you do? There's a lot of generosity just like in dance where I could ask somebody could somebody read my intro. I did have somebody an author read my intro who basically said like
00:33:04
Speaker
this is not sufficient. I have like a one paragraph intro. And if you do read my book, my intro introduction very personal. And it was very heartfelt. And it's the truth because the person who read my book, thank you Rosalie, that's her name. And she's not a dancer. She just is a published author who was part of this group. And it was very generous said you need to bleed on the paint. You need to people to care about what you have to say. Now, I did get an editor. My book is very different than it was before my first editor took a first swipe at it because there's a reason they're editors. She didn't write anything, but she knew how to ask me the right questions to get me to expand on what I was writing. She also helped me restructure the book to take a chapter two out, fit them into other chapters.
00:33:50
Speaker
On the same social media groups, I would ask like, so now what do you do? How do you publish? I look back. I'm like, how did I do that? I just kept on asking questions. People would offer suggestions and I would investigate and do research. And there are always a million options. I always had to make choices. but I would just go with my gut. Like I needed a book designer. And at first all I had to decide if I wanted to self publish or use a publishing company.
00:34:17
Speaker
And years ago, you didn't want to self publish, but now honestly, I would tell people to self publish. I did have a possibility to do traditional publishing and I would have lost a lot of control.
00:34:30
Speaker
I'm just a control freak. I had hired a photographer and had all those photos done. And they're all my students. I was there for all these photo shoots. And I'm very proud of that. And they wanted to like, read to all the photos. I was like, no way. I'm proud of what I put out. I hired a book designer, meaning the person who lays out the layout of the inside of the book, not even a dancer. There were a lot of people who said you should do it. Use a dancer, you should use a dancer. And I just met with a lot of people virtually. And I just said, no, this is the person.
00:35:00
Speaker
This is the person who should be doing this for me and she was fantastic. Every time it was the next step or sometimes I didn't even know what the next step was and I would just reach out on these social media groups because I think for anything out there now there are so many resources. We live in the world. It doesn't even have to be writing or dancing. You can learn how to do almost anything. You can just join a social media group and ask questions and you can't just blindly believe whatever people telling you but use your head research what the answers that people give you and make a decision. Every step I would be like, okay, what do I do now? And people would tell me what they thought I should do. And I would explore all those options and make a choice. And I take another step forward. And I did have to set it down for like six or eight months. You know, I got sick in 2022. And then I came back to it. And then four years later, after I started, I had a book like that was it just happened. That was a really long winded. I'm sorry, that was crazy.
00:35:57
Speaker
I love that. And I think that's just so indicative of how we are as dancers, how we learn that everything just is one step at a time. You learn how to do a plie and then you keep doing plies every day and then you learn the next thing and you keep growing. And I think that skill is just so ingrained in us of like, just take the next right step. Good things take time. It's not gonna be instant gratification.
00:36:18
Speaker
but just knowing that you can figure it out. If you had known, like you said, how hard it would be, you might have not started, but breaking it up into small manageable pieces and asking for help. Like how huge is that? I can connect it back to like when I work with dancers for audition season. if They go into this and it's like so overwhelming. There's so much to do. Where do I start? But then they ask for help. They get a mentor and then we break it down and it's like, okay,
00:36:44
Speaker
this week you're just gonna do this one thing. And I have so many people say to me, wow, that was so much less stressful this year because I wasn't trying to do everything at once. I just took it slow step by step. If you can do that with anything, you'll get there. I mean, that's just it. It's amazing to me when I look at my book now and I'm like, oh, i okay, I did that. And that front cover, that photo, that is one of my former students.
00:37:11
Speaker
on the cover, her legs and her feet that was just during one of the photo shoots. Her name is Magnolia. It's really special. What do you hope that others are going to get from this book?
00:37:22
Speaker
um So first of all, I hope they just enjoy it, like that it's an easy read. Let me just start with that. I feel like the technique of ballet is very specific, but it can be a little bit, I don't know if cold is the right way. And then you have these human beings and you have to get them to do it. And I was trying to do something that filled in the gap that gave some practical like do this, then this, then this, then this, and this will help get you there. So I hope that people have a better sense of as a teacher, how I explain a tendu. how I teach people to do a tendu, for example, or glissade or, you know, whatever. And I hope students as well, it's not geared towards really young students, but definitely anybody, I feel like over 11 or 12 could read that and come away with exercises to do in a better sense of how certain steps are done. I also hope that people are inspired, not necessarily by me, like I'm so inspirational, but partially I did include that chapter, Words of Wisdom.
00:38:21
Speaker
because I remember reading other books and quotations from other ballet teachers that I'd hear. And I'd be like, yes, that's it. That's it. And so I reached out to some of my students who are professionals or at university, like conservatory studying dance. And I asked them to think about their most influential teacher. And then I would reach out to that teacher and ask them a whole bunch of questions. And originally that chapter was paragraphs and paragraphs from each teacher.
00:38:50
Speaker
that was a big battle with my editor and myself because she said no no no it's just not going to work you have to find a way to make this chapter come together more because it's just everybody going off on their spiel and i feel like it came out how i wanted that it's just these like inspirational phrases from people who are really great teachers so i hope people feel inspired or at least inspired If it is for me from the introduction, I was not born into dance. I was not born in a world where people did this. I did not have the typical dancer's body, but I found a way to build this a career around it and a life around it that I'm proud of. You know, I love my students. I always appreciate that they're there working at these summer intensives.
00:39:39
Speaker
A lot of young people do nothing all summer. I mean, some of them I understand that you're privileged if you can go to an intensive, but some people are privileged and still choose to do nothing. You know, I even have a certain amount of admiration for these kids who show up. So I hope people maybe are inspired that you don't have to be born into it and that you can find your way into a place that is right for you, even if it's not what you thought it was going to be, I think often it is not what you think it's going to be. But that doesn't mean that you're not going to find yourself in a really good place with it. So I hope people have that sort of inspiration, but also a lot of practical knowledge. This is how I take the cold hard technique and turn it into a beautiful dancer. Yeah, I think you nailed it.
00:40:30
Speaker
Thank you. now On that note of discussing, you know, the inspiration and the words of wisdom that you gathered, I would love to just hear but if you could give aspiring dancers who are pursuing a career, one piece of advice, what would you tell them?
Pursuing True Passions
00:40:43
Speaker
Chase after what you really want. That's why if I had to, I'm trying to follow directions. to make right I have a lot more, but that's, I'm a dancer, I follow. yeah Chase after what you want. I love it.
00:40:56
Speaker
Well, can you tell everyone how they can find you, how they can find your book, share like your Facebook and everything, because there's so much good knowledge you share daily when you're posts on there. Where can we get all of your knowledge? I am on Facebook at Deborah Angerman. I think it's like Colin ballet teacher, coach, choreographer.
00:41:19
Speaker
I'm also on Instagram just as Deborah Engerman. I teach at two lovely ballet schools regularly. One is just north of Baltimore City. It's where I'm right now. It's called Charm City Ballet. And another one is northeast of Baltimore in the Bel Air, Abingdon area. And it's called Dance Conservatory of Maryland.
00:41:42
Speaker
I recommend both schools highly if you're in anywhere in Baltimore or even south central Pennsylvania or like northeast of Baltimore like Parkville or anywhere in that area. I recommend both schools highly they are ballet schools but they have jazz and tap like they do offer some of others they don't Focus on those, but those are options absolutely at those schools. Most schools even have adult ballet. And then, well, my book, it let's talk about fifth teaching ballet in the 21st century. It's on Amazon. It's on Barnes and Noble on online. Even Target has it online. And if you would prefer to get it from your local bookstore, your local bookstore has a platform form through which they can order it. Okay.
00:42:31
Speaker
<unk> I'll put all of that in the show notes as well for anyone who'd like to get that information from you. And thank you so much for this conversation, Deborah, and for all your wisdom. I really appreciate it. Aw, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this, and we finally got to it. We made it happen. Yeah. yeah
00:42:49
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too.
00:43:15
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at TheBradyValerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.