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18. A Dream and a Day Job with Kara Tatelbaum
84 Plays2 months ago
Kara Tatelbaum is a dancer, choreographer, teacher, coach and writer based in New York City. She earned her BFA in Dance from Tisch School of the Arts at NYU and MFA in Choreography from The Conservatory of Dance at SUNY Purchase. Kara is the founder of professional company independentdancemaker and author of Putting My Heels Down - a memoir of having a dream and a day job.
Kara’s memoir is to this day one of the most honest and hilarious books I have ever read and I am thrilled to share her story on the pod. Kara shares how she opened up performing opportunities for herself through her choreography and how she balances her dream and her day job. One of my biggest takeaways from this conversation was the power of having choices and the importance of not pigeonholing yourself as a dancer. Kara is one of those people who always finds a way to make her dream a reality - get ready for a huge dose of inspiration!
Key Moments:
- Early dance training [2:23]
- The decision to attend college for dance [6:06]
- Exploring her choreographic voice [9:10]
- Starting her own professional company at 22 years old [10:58]
- Balancing your dream and your day job [13:42]
- How asking for help will further your dance career [18:02]
- How Kara got started writing a memoir and her experience through the process [22:10]
- What Kara’s life looks like now as an author, instructor, choreographer, performer and coach [28:59]
- Why Kara’s story resonates so much with dancers [36:04]
- Her biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [40:19]
Connect with Kara:
HER WEBSITE: karatatelbaum.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/karatatelbaum
Links and Resources:
Join the Brainy Ballerina Book Club
Get your copy of Putting My Heels Down: A Memoir of Having a Dream and a Day Job (affiliate link)
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Questions/comments? Email me at [email protected]
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Transcript
The Pressure of Perfection in Dance
00:00:00
Speaker
I talk about this in the book when I go to therapy and the therapist says to me, you know, why do you expect yourself to be an expert in everything? And I think that as a choreographer and dancer, I was expecting myself to be an expert because that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to be perfect. You're supposed to know and do everything, you know, before you even know you're supposed to know and do it. Of course, the Pilates personality, I didn't care.
00:00:24
Speaker
If I didn't know something, I'd ask a question, i didn't I'd make a joke. And then I think those worlds came together, those personalities came together for me. And certainly as an author, as a dance author now, you know here I am in this world of writers and authors. It's a new world for me to be in and I'm not pretending to be an expert. I ask questions, I crack jokes, I'm me. I'm not pretending that I know everything and that I'm an expert.
Kara's Introduction and Early Dance Experience
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need Succeed in a dance career on your turns.
00:01:25
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the brainy ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Kara Tattlebaum. Kara is a dancer, choreographer, teacher, coach, and writer based in New York city. Kara is the founder of professional company, independent dance maker, and author of putting my heels down. Kara's memoir to this day is one of the most honest and hilarious folks I have ever read. And I am so thrilled to share her story on the pod. Thank you so much for coming on today, Kara.
00:01:53
Speaker
Hi, Caitlin, it's great to see you. Thank you for having me. Of course. I want to start from the very beginning of your dance journey, and I would love to hear why did you take your very first dance class? You know, I think I ended up in my first dance class like a lot of little girls end up in their first dance class because their moms put them in. So it was me and my best friend's family, and they took us to our first ballet classes. And I think from day one, I was pretty hooked.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, what was your training like growing up? So my training growing up was pretty strictly ballet. I started at a ballet school and my ballet school that I started taking classes and actually closed when I was nine years old, just before I was about to be a bonbon in the Nutcracker. So I never got to be in a Nutcracker.
00:02:38
Speaker
So my mom switched me to another dance school that also offered modern dance. So I was doing my strict ballet training and then I also branched out into modern dance. And when I was told when I joined the school that I would never make it as a ballet dancer at nine, 10 years old,
00:02:54
Speaker
They encouraged me to take modern. My teacher, Miss Lorraine, as I call her in the memoir, encouraged me to take modern dance classes and to start creating my own choreography. So I started making dances also very young and she would teach me private composition classes. Still the exposure that I had was mainly ballet and modern dance. I would go away in the summers as I grew up and go to different summer programs and continue my training that way.
00:03:22
Speaker
And when I was in high school, I also trained, I started teaching, I taught four classes a week by the time I was a senior in high school. And I was taking classes at the Ailey School on Fridays, I would get to leave early. So that's pretty much my early training. What kind of student were you growing up? Very diligent.
00:03:40
Speaker
very good listener, wanting to please. I think I was very teachable. I was easy to teach, but my body didn't always cooperate with what was being asked of it. I mean, I think a lot of the physicality that I was deficient in, as they told me, was always relevant to them, but my work ethic was strong, so I think the teachers liked teaching me, so I was teachable. When reading your book, you talk a lot about how you did have these opportunities open up and modern and choreography and things but your heart was still always in ballet. Was it just something about ballet that you love doing or was it the idea that ballet was like the peak to be reached or what was that feeling for you?
Navigating Dance Education and Career Choices
00:04:20
Speaker
I think two things. One, I don't like to be told no. So as soon as they told me that you know I wasn't going to make it, I was going to prove them wrong. So there was definitely that. Also, I just love ballet. it was just that way You're right. It was, to me, I think I did feel it was the pinnacle and it was the main objective was to be a ballet dancer. And I think as I began my tunnel vision thinking as a dancer that You have to be a great ballet dancer, and then you can become a great modern dancer, and then you can become you know a choreographer. But everything started with ballet. A lot of dancers feel like there is this certain path you have to follow.
00:04:55
Speaker
to get to the next thing. I don't know if it's taught to us or if we just see it enough that we think that's how you're supposed to do it. That's what we're shown, right? I think for me, growing up in the early 80s, my dance teachers and experiences were very much of that time where there was a national endowment for the arts, there was actually some funding. And so the trajectory of your dance career and your choreographic career is very different than then going into the 90s. The path that they had sort of As you're saying, we we saw it and maybe they did tell us also, but we definitely witnessed it. It was not relevant anymore. Yeah, that's really true. I hadn't really thought of it that way. and so You grew up near NYC, right? and so When you graduated, you decided to go to college for dance. Was that always like a foregone conclusion? You were going to go to college or did you consider kind of moving into the city and going for it right away? What was that thought process?
00:05:52
Speaker
There was no thought about not going to college for me. I definitely wanted to go to college. I wanted to go to Juilliard. That was my dream. I really wanted to go to the Juilliard School because that was my tunnel vision of where I should be. And I won't ruin it for readers, but my Juilliard audition did not go as expected or planned or anticipated.
00:06:11
Speaker
So I ended up at and NYU at Tisch School of the Arts, which was the perfect place for me to be. But my parents, you know, my dad was a doctor, my mom's a therapist. So, and I come from a background of, you know, you have to go to college. It wasn't, I don't even think it was a choice in my head that I would choose not to go to college.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting that that was the path that was so just a foregone conclusion. Cause I feel like for a lot of dancers, especially like for us, you know, being a little bit older college for dance wasn't as common as a path. Like my teachers were very shocked that I wanted to go to college for dance. Cause that was something they were like, well, you don't do that. You just go and audition and you join a company. Cause that was what they did.
00:06:50
Speaker
It's cool that you are so like, this is the path I wanna take and I know this is gonna be good for me. Miss Lorraine, my teachers and my parents, I think they always wanted me to have something to fall back on. you know I don't know if anyone truly believed I was going to make it as a dancer. And so I think in their eyes, and maybe my eyes too, that was the only way to be have like that safety net of a college degree.
00:07:16
Speaker
But, you know, another thing that's really popular now, which I love, and that would never have occurred to any of us in the 90s or the late 90s when I was applying to college is the gap year and having that special year, which I think is so wonderful and you kind of bring those choices together.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, it's not either or. You can do both. Yeah, I feel like a lot of dancers I talk to, we can get really binary in our thinking of i either go to college or I go audition. And it's like, what if you did both? You can have it all as so to say. You can do that. You can absolutely do both. And I also really encourage dancers because my you know, platform so much now is about not being tunnel vision and how to not pigeonhole ourselves because that's what I did and that's what my memoir is about. And that, you know, we don't have to necessarily make a choice in the beginning of our senior year of high school. We can spread it out, you know, cast that net and see where we land. So before we just say, you know, I'm not going to college, apply to college. Let's see where you get in.
00:08:15
Speaker
have options, right? Like the more choices you have, the more you can really have a decision instead of kind of letting the universe decide for you because you just didn't give yourself that or apply for the school or whatever it is. Like just, yeah, like you said, go for it, cast a wide net and see what happens.
Creating Opportunities and Challenges in Dance
00:08:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's the best place to make a decision. If I can give this advice to young dancers, the best way to make a decision is to have lots of options, not just binary, not just two options, you know, that there's a lot of options and then make choices from there.
00:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. In college, you continue to really hone your choreographic voice. It started to be like something that you really enjoy doing is what it seems like from the memoir that you really still had it on your heart to be in a company, but we're starting to really find that choreographing was fun and something you enjoy doing. Is that accurate? Absolutely. And I really used the choreography, especially in my younger years and in the beginning of college, as a vehicle for my own performance. So I was not being cast in things. So guess what? I'll make myself a solo. I'll make myself something. I love performing. I love being the center of attention. I love the spotlight. And the only way to get that for me was to create it myself.
00:09:28
Speaker
as a choreographer, getting more and interested in the technicalities and the the real artistry of putting a dance together. But I think at the beginning it was about that, giving myself that space to shine. Yeah, and that's really huge too for dancers because a lot of times young dancers are so worried about like, what if I don't get the gig? What if they don't like me? What if I'm not good enough? And it's like, what if you just created the thing that you want to do?
00:09:52
Speaker
Why did you to wait for somebody else to give you that opportunity? There were some famous articles in the Times about this when I was in college that really men are encouraged to create their own movement style from an early age because they can't fit into the codified structure and technique that the women have because we started dancing when we were five years old. and Usually, I'm going to really generalize here, and men will start or they had started in my day later.
00:10:17
Speaker
And so then they were encouraged to create their own movement style and then they become the choreographers and that's encouraged. So really as women, it's important for us to give ourselves that freedom of expression that is not always encouraged, especially in ballet. That's so true. You graduated college and you started your own company at 22 years old.
00:10:39
Speaker
Can you talk about that? What was that experience like? Well, again, you know, I had some shame in having my own company so young because I really wanted to dance in someone else's company. I didn't want to have my own dance company. But again, this was my ticket to performing and my company got a lot of work early on and we had a lot of success. I had my first New York Times review at 21 years old at my first New York City season that my parents paid for, by the way, also.
00:11:07
Speaker
which I think is important in my trajectory because most choreographers aren't so lucky to have parents pay for you to have a season. It takes years if not decades to fundraise that kind of money. So I had that opportunity because of the privilege of being born to my parents. So I think there was some shame in having my own dance company in a way, but also, you know, it was, I made a lot of work and I dove very deeply into my own process as a solo performer and choreographer.
00:11:35
Speaker
and also making group work and starting to tour and starting to gain some momentum and in New York City. Out of the gates, everyone was like, wow, this is a big deal. But then as it went on, it seems like it kind of started to fizzle. You said the economy was crashing and there was just less opportunities and they're kind of dried up and people were saying, we want someone new and fresh. And it's like, how do you, how do you deal with that as someone who's still what, like 30 years old? You're not even. Yeah, not even. I mean, that was the thing. Like when you start shooting off.
00:12:05
Speaker
at a younger age, that's hard to sustain. And it became very hard for me to sustain, not just because of all of what was happening externally with the economy and with choices made by theaters and funders. Also, my body was killing me. I had so much pain in my body that I had hidden for so many years. And that resulted in my first hip surgery and then my second hip surgery. So there were a lot of speed bumps and just doors closing.
00:12:33
Speaker
I think one thing that really stood out to me from your memoir is how no matter what those speed bumps were, you found a way through it. Like when you couldn't really use your legs to dance because you just had hip surgery, you choreographed a solo where you stood in one place and just moved your upper body. And it was like, you weren't going to be stopped no matter what. No, I knew what I wanted. I've always known what I've wanted. I want to be a dancer. I want to be a choreographer. I want to be on stage. So I would not let anything stop me. And from a very, you know,
00:13:04
Speaker
sort of selfish perspective, it became very hard for me through my injuries and through what my physicality was preventing me from doing to watch other dancers do my work just was hard. So even if I was just out there moving my upper body, that satisfied me. Yeah, the subtitle of your memoir is a memoir of having a dream and a day job, which I think so many dancers can relate to this idea of pursuing a performing career but having to do other work to pay the bills and just kind of always being stuck in this place of like, then you can't have enough time to do the dream because you're in this loop of having more and more work on your side gig. And can you talk more about this experience for you and how you juggle this when you were starting out?
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, and I just continue to still juggle this, right? I mean, it's just, it's always finding that balance. So I graduated from Tisch in 1999 and by 2000, Pilates had really like hit the scene for non-dancers and was showing up in gyms and they had just lost their trademark so anyone can teach Pilates.
00:14:13
Speaker
So I was all over the place teaching Pilates, which I never enjoyed. It wasn't my passion in any way. I was doing it for the paycheck. And then I got certified and that enabled me to teach in even more places.
00:14:26
Speaker
So that that became my day job. I don't talk about this too much in my memoir, but I also worked in retail. And the retail was like harder on my body than teaching Pilates because you had to stand all day. And in Pilates, in the classical training that I had to be an instructor, you're not allowed to do the exercises.
00:14:47
Speaker
So I can sit on an exercise ball and just teach my classes. so And I think this is something that, you know, all performers, especially dancers, need to really think about in choosing your day job because you need to protect your instrument, right? So waitressing and reaching, you know, these jobs that typically dancers take, catering, these things, you're on your feet. It's so hard.
00:15:09
Speaker
So your question was, how do we find the balance between the day job and the dream? And for me, it became very easy for me to get work in my day job. I became a very, very popular Pilates instructor, which was shocking to me because I did not care about it. And I kept getting more and more opportunities. And people were loving me lining up for classes. And I hated it. And there, my dream you know to be a dancer was just crumbling And I was trying so hard. I was trying my bestest and my mostest. So why wasn't that working? And this thing that I didn't take seriously, I was getting all of this work. And that became my biggest obstacle to overcome. Why do you think that was? Do you think there's something to that? Yeah, I'm curious if you can say more about why the thing that you were just kind of like, this is just to pay the bills became so much almost easier in a way than the thing that you were really passionate about.
00:16:06
Speaker
You know, I think, ah especially in my beginning days of teaching Pilates, because I worked for a corporation that believed in entertainment fitness. So you had to have a personality and you were performing. I was performing. I was funny. I would make jokes and people liked it because I wasn't taking it too seriously. I think in my dream life, in my dance life, I was really intense, like really intense. I think I put up a lot of walls probably around me unintentionally. And I didn't have that with Pilates because I just didn't care.
Therapy and Authenticity's Role in Dance
00:16:41
Speaker
That makes sense. Did you ever find a balance with dance where you were able to take some of that energy of like, not not caring, but just being able to take some of that like easygoing attitude and translate it into your dance career so you could have that sense of not being so tight with it? I think the best and I talk about this in the book when I go to therapy, and the therapist says to me, you know, why do you expect yourself to be an expert in everything?
00:17:09
Speaker
And I think that as a choreographer and dancer, I was expecting myself to be an expert because that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to be perfect. You're supposed to know and do everything, you know, before you even know you're supposed to know and do it. Of course, the Pilates personality, I didn't care.
00:17:24
Speaker
If I didn't know something, I'd ask a question. I didn't, I'd make a joke. And then I think those worlds came together, those personalities came together for me. And certainly as an author, as a dance author now, you know, here I am in this world of writers and authors. It's a new world for me to be in. And I'm not pretending to be an expert. I ask questions. I crack jokes. I'm me. I'm not pretending that I know everything and that I'm an expert.
00:17:49
Speaker
That's so true. I feel like I had a very similar experience as a dancer because yeah, we're expected to be perfect. You don't want anyone to know that you don't know what you're doing. And it seems like everyone everyone else knows what they're doing and you later find out that they don't. No one knows what they're doing. But it seems like they do and you feel like if you let on that you're not so sure.
00:18:09
Speaker
People are going to take you less seriously. They're not going to think you're a real artist. Or if you like practice something that you're bad at, they're going to say, Oh, wow, she's really bad at that, you know, must not be a very good dancer or whatever. And it's like, how much to that holding back in my career, this pursuit of not even being perfect or having to a appear perfect.
00:18:26
Speaker
And how much does that limit our choices of where we go with our career? you know And not only do we as dancers not talk to each other about what we don't know, we also don't talk to each other about pain, physical pain. and And that's something that I kept very much inside.
00:18:42
Speaker
the more we open up. And I think dancers now are so much better at it and we're getting better and better, but really talking about all these things. If you don't know, if someone's talking about a choreographer and you don't know who it is, raise your hand and ask who that is. That's okay. You don't have to know everything. Yeah. Asking questions is so powerful. Sometimes we're scared to ask a question because what if everyone else thinks I'm dumb because I don't know this. And it's like, well, who really cares?
00:19:08
Speaker
You asked the question, now you know something you didn't know before and now you're better because of it. Absolutely. And you allowed someone else to help you and we all love to give help. yeah We all love to feel useful. So what better way, you know, it might even help you move forward in your career if you do ask the question because you're developing a relationship with who you're asking the question of and then they're going to help you. And I think that's why I didn't get a ton of help in the beginning of my career because I was pretending that I knew everything. So how could anyone help me when I knew everything?
00:19:41
Speaker
And it's so hard to ask for help because we don't want to appear needy or we haven't almost taught like we have to do everything by ourselves. You know, you have to be self-sufficient in this career. And like, yeah, dancers are incredibly self-sufficient and so there's something to be said for being able to like figure things out, you know, but it doesn't have to be on your own.
00:20:00
Speaker
you can figure things out by asking someone for help. And like you said, people love to help. I love helping people and I never annoyed or put off by someone wanting my advice or asking me for help because I love to share what I've learned and help someone else. And I don't know, again, why we think that that is going to make us seem lesser, but it just is part of our like psyche almost as dancers.
00:20:26
Speaker
Absolutely. It's five, six, seven, eight. The combination started. You don't know it too bad. Fake your way through it. You know, no time to ask questions, no time to ask why your ankle hurts when you land from that jump. No time to ask what the movement is in between five and six. And yes, there's a time and a place to ask questions, but we need to ask questions. Yes, definitely.
00:20:46
Speaker
Does the mere thought of a audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule? I've been there and I totally get it. As dancers, we spend hundreds of hours honing our technique and artistry. But when it comes to figuring out how to put together a resume or what to expect in a professional audition, we're often left to figure it out ourselves. That's why I put together the ultimate audition guide.
00:21:14
Speaker
This is your one-stop shop for everything you need to tackle professional company auditions with ease.
Writing 'Putting My Heels Down'
00:21:20
Speaker
No more spending hours Googling and trying to piece together a somewhat coherent audition package. With this guide, you'll be ready to conquer audition season like a true professional.
00:21:30
Speaker
We're talking resumes, head shots, dance photos, dance reels, plus info on how to find auditions, what to wear, what to expect, how to budget, mindset tips, you name it, it is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultimate Audition Guide and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional.
00:21:55
Speaker
Let's talk about your book some more. I know we've been touching on it throughout this interview, but I want to really dive into it. I'm just curious, how did you decide to write a book? Okay, so I get this question a lot. And I think the answer is usually a little surprising because I started writing my book in the little margins of my appointment book. And I would write about my Pilates clients and the crazy things that would happen to me, them not letting me use their bathroom,
00:22:22
Speaker
them paying me to leave because they didn't want to work out, all of these different things that were happening. And I wanted to write a tell all Pilates book. I also wanted to blow up the gym culture and gyms. I wanted to tell all the behind the scenes, people having affairs with you know trainers, with members and you know all this behind the scenes stuff. And nanny diaries had come out and it was really popular. So I wanted to write, it was called Pilates Diaries when I started out. And that's how I started. And I was teaching Pilates at Penguin Publishing and also at, I was at a different publishing house too. I say this now because I'm far enough away from it, but I would Google the names of the people in my class and then figure out who could be helpful to me and, you know, teach me or coach me or something. And so I ended up having some coaches, some different writing coaches. One of them has said to me, you know, why aren't you writing about your dance life? Wow.
00:23:13
Speaker
So I started writing about my dance life and the floodgates just opened. And it was starting to make me feel something writing about my dance life, especially as a little girl, just all the pain that I had physically that I never talked about, but I was able to write about it.
00:23:32
Speaker
So the Pilates Diaries turned into putting my heels down and it was a long process. It was probably about five years to get from when I first started writing to having this full story. Did you notice any parallels when you were writing your book between the dance world and the writing world? Are they totally different? Was there anything similar? Totally different.
00:23:55
Speaker
Totally different. um Maybe in some ways the same of just the alone time that you spend with your art, but like dancers were alone, but with each other, writers are just literally by themselves with their computer or their journals. So the discipline that we have as dancers is so different from my experience with writers. I woke up at five in the morning every day when I was writing, and I wrote from five to six, and I would go train my 6.30 a.m. client, and then I would go to ballet class and go to rehearsal, and the day would start there. And that just felt very natural to me. When I started joining writer groups, the writer would say, well, what if you don't have anything to write at five in the morning? And I was like, I don't, you just do something. As a choreographer, I'm used to paying for rehearsal time.
00:24:40
Speaker
If I get to my space, I'm paying my dancers. I always pay my dancers, by the way. I pay for my studio space. It doesn't matter if I don't have a grand idea. I got to do something, right? I'm paying for it. And writers are just to me a little bit more sort of sensitive about when they write.
00:24:57
Speaker
You know, also they can write at, you know, midnight and we as dancers, we're not going to be ready to dance. it Not all of us. Anyway, I wouldn't be dancing at midnight. So I think the way that we approach the work is just so different. Also, I'll have to say, and maybe this is because I reached out for help right away. Writers help each other. Writers talk about their process constantly and choreographers and dancers, I don't find there to be that openness.
00:25:23
Speaker
Hmm. I wonder why that is. I think maybe because writers are so in their space alone when they're with each other, they can't wait to connect maybe.
Collaboration vs. Competition in Dance and Writing
00:25:35
Speaker
And you know, also it's different coming into the writing world as a dancer. I don't pose a kind of threat. You know, I'm not like the next Charles Dick. I'm not like a literary writer, right? So it could be that maybe they're just nicer to me because I'm not coming from their world. Maybe, yeah. But you know I have to say, like you know I'm a member of all these different Facebook groups of writers and everyone's so supportive of each other. I've never seen that of choreographers. like Can you imagine if there was a Facebook group of choreographers giving each other advice on how to get where to have their next season, where to tour, where to this, where to that? I mean, that would be awesome. Yeah, you should start it.
00:26:11
Speaker
I think there's so much limited, I mean, that it's hard to get a book published, yes, but it's even harder to get the dance world is so much more cutthroat than any other artistic world that I can think of. And I think that there's just limited opportunities.
00:26:26
Speaker
That's why I was going to say it feels like so competitive. People are just scared that if they share, then someone else might take the opportunity that they wanted. And I also feel like as a dancer, if someone asks me about my process, I don't think I could just really answer right off the bat. I have to think about it for a while because I don't think I've a really thought about my process as a dancer who grew up in a classical ballet world and then went to a company. I was really told what to do. I've choreographed, I've dabbled, you know, but nothing like that was never gonna be my main thing. you know I never walked into a studio and been like choreographing feels so fun and easy. It's always felt like
00:27:01
Speaker
hard for me to put together a piece like that. So it's like, I don't really have a process for that either. I couldn't really easily talk about it, I think. And maybe it's something we need to start working with dancers on earlier in their training is like, thinking about their process and actually being more intellectual about what they're really doing. And I think too, along with that sharing materials, you know, when you're in a writing group, and I was never in this type of writing group, but this is a popular kind where they're trading pages of writing.
00:27:30
Speaker
And sometimes there are small pods of choreographers, but I think at a certain level, I don't know of any choreographers that continue to feed off of each other in that way or show each other work or really give each other feedback in that same way. You know, writers take home pages from each other and they go home and they diligently look through it and edit. We don't have that in the dance world.
00:27:52
Speaker
Our work is so precious to us. We would almost be like offended if somebody edited our choreography. When you're in school, you have your teachers who do that. And even then it almost feels like, but this is my, my work, you know, and you can take feedback of course, but it can be a little hard to take. And I think it almost comes back to that idea too, though, of like, we're trying to be perfect and we've tried to put this piece together that has to be actually perfect. And somebody giving us this feedback on it is like, well, did I not do a good enough job?
00:28:19
Speaker
And because it's so personal right because it's yeah bodies. Yeah, that's the thing, you know, I often get asked because I do a lot of school visits with my book and mainly school visits um college dance departments. And a question I get asked a lot is like what do you do when people don't like your book, and It's like, it's my book. It's like this. It's much harder to take it in when it's your body. and yeah It's my book. So it's just it's a different when you're a living being and that criticism is difficult to take in the way that when you're a writer, it's not physically attached to you anymore.
Life Balance: Teaching, Coaching, and Motherhood
00:28:52
Speaker
That's a really good point.
00:28:53
Speaker
What does your life look like now? You gave us actually was really cool in the memoir. You gave us like this one start of a chapter where it was a timestamp of everything you would do in a day and your schedule and like how you'd be running around town. And I was like, this is crazy. First of all, I don't know how you did that. I was exhausted like reading that page. I was like, I would never have made it one day in that life. I don't know. Isn't that true? Maybe when I was in my twenties.
00:29:19
Speaker
I was in my 20s. Yeah. But for me, the biggest part was like the travel because I'm not saying I didn't work that many hours in a day for a long, and long time. But just like being constantly somewhere else and almost just like the mental load of keeping track of it. I was like, wow, that's a lot.
00:29:35
Speaker
That was really the hardest part was and you know every couple of hours changing places. So I would be on on the subway just constantly. I'd see every neighborhood of New York City and even outer boroughs in a day. So that running around, again, took major toll on my body, especially two hip surgeries. Neither of my hip surgeries, by the way, took. I had torn labromes. They both retore. So I'm always in some kind of physical pain. And so that was very, very hard and unsustainable for me.
00:30:04
Speaker
So right now, I always joke like the best thing about being an author is I get to sit a lot. So typically now, I mean, I'm still teaching, I don't teach Pilates, believe it or not. I teach it very differently than I was teaching it in the book. I teach dance.
00:30:20
Speaker
And I'm a coach. So the coaching is the mostly sitting and I am a certified wellness and resilience coach. So I'll be, you know, there's a little running around maybe for teaching and then they're sitting and I'm also a mom. I have two kids. So ah the day is still ah in a way all over. I don't know what's going to happen from morning to evening. If you're enjoying this episode, then you're going to love the brainy ballerina book club.
00:30:47
Speaker
I have been an avid reader for as long as I can remember. I am fascinated by other stories and am always applying the lessons I learned in books to my own life, both personally and professionally. What started out as sharing my currently reading list on Instagram stories has since grown into a full fledged book club with hundreds of members. Each month we dive into a new story thoughtfully chosen to inspire and challenge us with original ideas and experiences.
00:31:14
Speaker
Whether you are an avid reader or looking to get into the habit, the Brainy Ballerina Book Club welcomes you with open arms. It's free to join and there is no catch. Just a community of dance lovers who are eager to expand our knowledge, feed our souls, and make meaningful connections. Head on over to the show notes to join the Brainy Ballerina Book Club today.
00:31:35
Speaker
How do you feel about what you're doing now? Have you found that like peace and happiness you were kind of searching for? Or do you still feel like you want to be on stage, you want to be choreographing more? I think both. You know, it took me 10 years to get my book published. So the fact that I have Where is it? This is like in the world. I have so much gratitude and I'm so proud. I'm published by a small indie publisher and, you know, of course I dreamt that I would be published by this huge publisher and be all over the place and be a New York Times bestseller, which I'm not yet. But I think the connection that I've made with dancers has been the most satisfying
00:32:16
Speaker
connection has been incredible. I have so many dancers that reach out to me daily, weekly, They've been through the same things as me. What am I asking for advice or just wanting to give me their take on the book? And that has been so satisfying. And I really thought that I was alone. I really thought that I was the only one who was in pain, who had a dream and it wasn't working out the way I thought it should and would. And this book has opened me up in so many ways. And it also has brought me opportunities that I wanted so fiercely as a choreographer. and I have them now as an author. I am all over visiting college dance departments. That's something that I wanted to do as a choreographer, and here I am. It's even better. I get to really connect and really talk and develop relationships with these schools and with students and with teachers. I do want to perform again. I'm not done. I know that I'm not done, and I don't know when that is happening, but I still want to perform and choreograph.
Redefining Success and Diverse Career Paths
00:33:20
Speaker
That is kind of the overarching theme. When I read your book, when I talk to you is that you can achieve your dreams in so many different ways. And getting really stuck in the idea of this is how it's supposed to be done can just leave you trapped. And as soon as you let yourself just be opened up to other ideas, it felt like that's as soon as things kind of started happening for you. When you let go of this is how I have to do it and just said, let's start my company. Maybe I haven't done the career and done the pathway that I thought I'm supposed to, but like, why not try it? And things started happening. And I just think that's really, ah a powerful thing for dancers to see. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for acknowledging that. It's really hard when it doesn't work out for us like we thought it was going to. It's so hard. And you know as dancers, we see such a limitation on the amount of time that we can do this. And every second is just so important. Every decision is so pivotal. And as you're saying, to open that up
00:34:17
Speaker
is the best way to really make your dream happen. Why do we always think about what choreographer we want to dance for? What dance company would want to dance for? Let's flip it. What kind of audience do you want to dance for? That's something I ask all the time now of my clients and students. Who do you want to dance for? Do you want to dance in a big arena? Do you want to dance for just a hundred people in an intimate setting? What are you imagining for yourself?
00:34:41
Speaker
and then maybe start to think about who's in those spaces, not just I need to be an X, Y, and Z. Maybe you thought you wanted to be an Ailey, but actually you're dancing for Rihanna. And you never would have considered that because you're a classically trained dancer, you know, but maybe that's your path.
00:34:58
Speaker
we get really stuck in the idea of, especially for a classically trained dancer, of like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing and these are the best companies. And that's what success looks like. And I see my friends in these companies or people I know, they've made it. And if I veer from that path, I'm not going to make it. Success can mean a million different things to each different person, stepping away from what you think you're supposed to do and actually getting into with what you want to do and what's going to make you happy.
00:35:25
Speaker
most dancers at some point in their life go through that realization. And as soon as you can kind of flip that, it's like everything just starts falling into place. Things become easier. Like we just want ease, right? Like we just want some ease. and We don't have a lot of ease in our chosen career and profession as dancers. So any way that we can give ourselves a little ease, a little space, a little kindness. Yeah, this career is already hard enough. We don't have to make it harder.
00:35:55
Speaker
We don't need to make it harder. And we also can choose where we get our feedback from. We can choose what we do with that feedback. you know Because criticism is a compliment in dance. Guess what? It's not. Criticism is criticism. you know It hurts. It's not a compliment. We really need to connect with each other.
00:36:15
Speaker
and share our stories. That's something I really want to, a message that I would love to get out there is that most dance memoirs are written by famous dancers. I can think of only five, maybe there's seven and I've read them all.
00:36:29
Speaker
dance memoirs written by non-famous dancers. so And our stories are important, not just emotionally for us to connect with each other, but also as a piece of dance history because we're all a part of dance
Authenticity and Connection Through Storytelling
00:36:41
Speaker
history. So it's very, very important that we share our stories and we listen to each other's stories.
00:36:47
Speaker
That's actually very interesting because a lot of, not all, but a lot of the memoirs I've read of more famous dancers seem very edited because they are well-known public personas and it's like they want to maybe preserve certain ideas about them and so there's certain things they're not sharing in yours.
00:37:05
Speaker
Your memoir I loved. It's still one of my favorites. I read it twice now and within 48 hours each time because I just can't put it down. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, the whole time. I mean, and it's so raw. And it's like you do not shy away from sharing a single story or detail or anything. And did you feel like because you weren't necessarily like famous,
00:37:26
Speaker
Did you feel more comfortable doing that or is that just your personality and you were going to do that either way? No, that's my personality. I mean, my I'm definitely, you know, those who know me know that I don't hold back and I definitely will overshare and give you every every detail. And I always want to make people laugh. You know, I love to make people laugh. I was told early on and I won't name the name, a very famous dance critic and writer looked at my proposal and she told me, you know, you're no Misty Copeland.
00:37:53
Speaker
And I said, like, duh, I know I'm not Misty Copeland. What if Misty Copeland taught a class with a CEO farting and the other, you know, with one of my bloody stories, like, you know, what what if Misty was in those situations? I got so much in the beginning of trying to get my book published. Like, who is Cara Tatlbaum? Why do we care about Kara Talabam. She's not famous. And I think more people connect with my story. Also, I wrote it. I wrote every single word of my story. And sometimes when people write memoir, it's not actually written by them. And that's why it can feel really edited. o These are my words. These are my stories. And I think it's important to be raw when you're sharing your life in that way.
00:38:35
Speaker
Yeah. And you know, Misty's story is amazing and it's aspirational and really inspirational for the dancers to read. And I think that's great. And then also we need these stories that are, what about when it doesn't work out? Because guess what? For a lot of dancers, that's what happens more often. You know, most of us don't have this superstar trajectory into the world of dance. We have a lot more of what you share in your book. And so I think that's why dancers are so connected to it and why you get so many messages because we see ourselves in these words. I'm reading this and I'm like, oh yeah. There's memories that are coming back to me that I haven't thought about in years when I read your book that I'm like, oh my gosh, I forgot about that, but I was i was there with you.
00:39:19
Speaker
Thank you. And you know what I found, and I've never, Misty Copeland and I've never had a conversation before, I would love to. Yeah. But you know, her story, when she looks at her story, I guarantee you, she's not looking at it as this like aspiration. Oh, it all fell. She had struggle.
00:39:35
Speaker
She changed course. She danced with Prince, you know and and yeah not only did she have to deal with all of the racial discrimination and her childhood and all these things, but she also made choices in her trajectory that were very, very different than other people. And that's the shocking thing, that people that we think, the mistys, the whoever they are for us, the dancers that we aspire to be,
00:39:59
Speaker
They share those very same feelings. They were little kids too in that dance class. So it's not they're up here and we're down here. That's what I learned. Shocking, shocking to me because I thought the people that I idolized had it
Advice for Aspiring Dancers and Closing Thoughts
00:40:15
Speaker
made. And I have them reaching out to me and saying, oh my gosh, I connect. I'm like, how do you connect with my story? I wanted your story. We're not all this perfect, pretty picture.
00:40:24
Speaker
Thank you for saying that. And yes, definitely in no way do I mean to minimize the struggles of anyone. Like you're so right when you say that because, but in my mind, I'm just thinking about the ends and you're right. There's so many struggles and no one is immune from that. So that's so true. I would love to just hear if you had to give aspiring dancers one piece of advice, what would you tell them? Don't pigeonhole yourself. Open yourself up. When the going gets tough and it's not working out,
00:40:54
Speaker
Don't keep trying the same thing over and over. Widen your vision. Stop pigeonholing and widen your vision. That's amazing. So for any dancers who might want to reach out to you or anyone who might be interested in reading your book, can you just share a little bit about how to find you?
00:41:14
Speaker
Sure. Well, my book is available where all books are sold. So you can get the book anywhere, your favorite bookseller. And if they don't carry it in the store, you could always ask them for it. You could also always ask for it at your local library. That's helpful for authors too. My favorite, favorite thing is if you're reading the book, DM me on Instagram at Cara Taliban and DM me while you're reading.
00:41:37
Speaker
because I love talking to readers while they're reading. So we can have this dialogue in the moment. Don't be afraid to reach out in a casual way. Thank you so much, Kara, for all your insight. And yes, listeners, please go read her book, Putting My Heels Down, A Memoir of Having a Dream and a Day Job. I promise you, you will laugh, you will cry, you will feel all the emotions, and you will really feel seen in this story. So I recommend it to any dancer. It will definitely speak to you. Thank you so much, Kara.
00:42:07
Speaker
Thank you, Caitlin. Thank you so much.
00:42:12
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too.
00:42:38
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Valorina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.