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11. Finding Your Voice in the Dance Industry with Ashley Tomaszewski
128 Plays3 months ago
Ashley Tomaszewski is the Founder and Director of THREE POINT PROJECT, a professional project company based in Wisconsin. She is a graduate of Butler University with a Bachelor of Arts in Dance Pedagogy and an esteemed choreographer with works being performed by ButlerBallet throughout Europe, at MashUp’s International Women’s Day Festival and by SALT2. In addition to directing, choreographing, and teaching, Ashley is in her second season as an artist with Geometry Dance Company in Los Angeles, CA.
In this episode we discuss Ashley’s U-turn from ballet to contemporary, the journey of starting her own professional dance company, and her work as a choreographer. She shares openly about how she’s developed self-trust as a dancer, knowing your worth, and how to make truly meaningful connections.
Key Moments:
- Early dance training [1:45]
- Choosing to attend Butler and pursue a dance degree [3:28]
- Taking a U-turn from ballet to contemporary [4:12]
- Dancing in her first professional company [7:00]
- Starting her own professional dance company [8:31]
- The future of THREE POINT PROJECT [13:10]
- What she looks for in dancers for her company [16:01]
- Her journey as a choreographer [21:40]
- Developing self-trust in your dance career [27:50]
- Knowing your worth as a dancer [33:43]
- Her biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [38:38]
Connect with Ashley:
THREE POINT PROJECT: www.threepointprojectwi.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/threepointprojectwi
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/ashley.tomaszewski
Links and Resources:
The College Dance Decision: thebrainyballerina.com/the-college-dance-decision
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at [email protected]
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Transcript
Introduction and Caitlin's Journey
00:00:00
Speaker
Growing up in the ballet world taught me so much good, but it also taught me what I don't want in a dance space. A lot of times dancers are told to stay quiet and you like smile and nod and your voice, even if you have opinions or something to express like the volume button gets turned down by the person in the front of the room. So I think now that I'm in the front of a space, it's like, how can I facilitate voices to be heard?
00:00:27
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
Podcast Purpose and Guest Introduction
00:00:43
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of the professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need Succeed in a dance career on your turns.
00:01:02
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the Brainy Valorina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Ashley Tamaszewski. Ashley is the founder and director of Three Points Project, a professional projects company based in Wisconsin. She's a graduate of Butler University with a Bachelor of Arts in Dance Pedagogy and an esteemed choreographer. Her works have been performed by Butler Ballet throughout Europe at Mashups International Women's Day Festival and by SALT2. In addition to directing, choreographing, and teaching, Ashley's in her second season as an artist with a Geometry Dance Company in Los Angeles, California.
Ashley Tamaszewski's Dance Beginnings
00:01:38
Speaker
I first met Ashley when she attended the Missouri Contemporary Ballet Summer Intensive, and I am so thrilled to reconnect with her today. Hi, Ashley!
00:01:46
Speaker
Hi, Caitlin. I'm excited to be here and talk. So excited to have you. I want to start from the very beginning. Why did you take your very first dance class? I started dance, actually, because my siblings were in it. So I have an older brother and a younger sister, and they were both in dance at the time. So my mom threw me in, too. And I'm just the one that stuck with it after realizing I loved it so much, but originally because my siblings were doing it. and was It wasn't a ballet class. What was that very first class? Um, I think it was like a Twinkle Tots ballet creative movement. The usual, I was three years old. So sure the the creative movement class. Yep, exactly. Okay. And then what was your training like growing up? Were you really serious about it right away? Did it take some time?
00:02:34
Speaker
I think I was always really serious about it from the jump and then what my training looked like and I think how serious my training was kind of evolved over time. Like I grew up in a really small town so I had a really great like foundation of training um until I was in about through like high school but then once I was getting older and I was like hey I think I really want to pursue this ended up changing studios to one that was farther away. Just for more intense ballet training, I think a lot of dancers go through similar things of making sure their environment is always pushing them, so making that shift.
00:03:08
Speaker
because I had a goal to get into Butler, really great training, but it was
Choosing a Different Path
00:03:11
Speaker
a mixed bag. Like I did hip hop, the lyrical gymnastics, ballet point growing up, and then towards my senior year of high school, kind of really transitioned to like modern ballet, classic jazz into my Butler years. So you said he had a goal of getting into Butler. Why was Butler the ultimate goal? Well, it's ironic now that I'm like so immersed in the contemporary world, but For a long time, my goal was to become a professional ballet dancer. So Butler has a really esteemed classical program. So that was one of the goals to keep pursuing like classical ballet. And it was great. The program is really intense, but really wonderful. And I did receive a professional ballet contract at the end of the four years.
00:03:53
Speaker
and in a turn of the universe, once I had it, I realized that's not what I wanted. So I ended up not pursuing it. Once I actually was able to like, okay, this is what your life could be, I realized that wasn't what I wanted life to be. So then we took a U turn. And what was that moment like? I mean, you just literally had the contract and we're like, I'm not gonna sign this? Or what went through your minds? So about two weeks post graduating from Butler. So this would have been like May of 2018. I was like planning on moving things were set. And then I don't know what happened. But I just realized I was like, I don't want to wear a tutu for the rest of my life. Like it just wasn't
00:04:34
Speaker
I think being out of the space a little bit, and I don't know if a lot of dancers can relate to this, but when you're in an environment, it's really easy to have your identity kind of based from that environment. So like when I was in the classical world, I was like, okay, I am ballet. You know, like that is what I was doing. That is what I was training for. That's what the people around me were doing. So it felt. maybe not even like authentic, but it felt natural for me to be like, all right, I'm going to do ballet. And then being separated from that even for two weeks after graduating and not being in spaces or having my identity kind of set to that. I realized like I wasn't that like I didn't want to go do breezes professionally. So it really was that like, I remember it's ironic because I'm so type A was back home. I had just graduated college thought I was moving in like two months across the country.
00:05:20
Speaker
And I said, Hey mom, like I'm not moving. And I remember so vividly because I'm so type A and like I have a plan and I had no backup. Like I, there wasn't like, Hey, I'm not moving. I'm going to do this. And she just said, all right, figure it out. And about two months later, I was in Wisconsin. So one of those things where just trusting, even when it seemed crazy. And I think that's so huge that you had the frame of mind to say that because I think that I mean, at any age, but especially at that age, it's really hard to be so sure of yourself that you know, this isn't what I want and to trust that something else was going to come along, but you just had to give it that space to make it happen. Right? Exactly. I think a lot of dancers can get comfortable or even just people in general, like when it seems like something is certain. So like I had a
00:06:07
Speaker
contract, it was certain there was fine print, but like, is it right for you? Because if the answer is still no, like, don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good advice. Yeah. So what was the
New Beginnings in Wisconsin
00:06:19
Speaker
U-turn? What did you end up doing instead? I ended up reaching back out to a director I had contact with a little bit my senior year that has a company here in Wisconsin. And then a studio here also was looking for teachers. So they were like, come audition for the company. and come audition teach because my degree is also in pedagogy. I love teaching. So I was like, wow, cool. What a fit. And then I ended up getting both jobs. I spent five seasons with that professional company before I resigned. And I'm still at the studio now just moving up as artistic director for the studio I'm at as well. But essentially the U-turn was, it didn't feel aligned. I couldn't picture myself moving to go do ballet forever. So we just ultimately reached out to people who had spaces that
00:07:01
Speaker
felt more aligned in that time of of my life when I was looking. And what were those years like dancing with this company? They were really ah a learning experience. and I was given a lot of opportunities and I'm really grateful for that. But I think with anything, like started when I was young and I spent five seasons from the time I was 21 to 26 there. And you're like learning a lot. You're learning a lot about yourself. as a human and you're learning a lot about yourself as a mover, really incredible connections and performance opportunities I was given. I just ultimately decided, and this is really hard and I don't think it's spoken about enough in the dance world of like,
00:07:36
Speaker
When it's time to go, that's okay. And it feels so misconstrued or like when dancers are like moving on to do other things. And cause it's such a hard decision. I love doing the rep and I loved being like in rehearsal all the time and moving my body. But again, I got that nudge that I got in 2018. I'm just like, Hey, like what if it's time to go? And I didn't even know what that looked like yet, but the five seasons I spent there were really, really critical for my growth as a teacher and leader and dancer. And I'm super thankful for that. Yeah, I think that's such a huge lesson is that the ability to listen to your intuition, you get a lot of outside noise, a lot of people telling you what you should do or what they think you should do and being able just to quiet that in and really hear what your voice is saying is really powerful. Yeah.
00:08:22
Speaker
So from leaving the company, then did you jump right into starting your own company or did you have a little bit of in between time of figuring things out? Yeah, i it's i crazy. um People have asked me this question because they're like, did you know you were starting a company? And like the answer is no. And it's crazy again when I say that, cause it feels like something like you plan or you're like, okay, this is what I'm going to do. But I didn't, I
Founding Three Points Project
00:08:49
Speaker
was also, so at the time, my last season before I resigned, I also was dancing with a company out in Los Angeles that I'm still connected with. And I was flying back and forth twice a month. So I was doing that. I was still performing with the company here and I was doing the full time gig at the studio. Like I didn't have brand space to even think about what was coming next, quite frankly.
00:09:11
Speaker
I was like using brain space to make space, if that makes sense. I was like, I don't know what's happening, but I like chose to do that hard thing and resigned from the company I was with. And then I wasn't performing. I wasn't, I mean, with the company that I was, but that contract event also ended. So there was a period of like, what am I doing? What's going to happen? And then in a beautiful turn of events, I had some friends and and close people. express like, Hey, Ash, like I would really want to dance for you. And I had never even had the thought. And so I had resigned from the company in March and then I had some people express this to me and my wheels got going. Cause that's how I work. And three point was founded in May of 2023. So a couple months in there, but it was like born and fostered in those two months. And then we launched. Wow.
00:10:06
Speaker
Yeah, that's really fast. So what was that process like of putting that all together? And was it just kind of like figure it out as you go? Or how did you do that? I think one of the most things I'm grateful for is it really was like such an organic start. And it wasn't like, hey, we're starting this thing and this is what we're doing, which there's nothing wrong with that either. But like we didn't start at an extreme because I don't think you can. We started at 10%. Because when I started 3Point, I also wasn't sure if I was moving. I really heavily considered moving to Los Angeles at what would have been this past summer and being there this year.
00:10:41
Speaker
And then for several reasons, that didn't feel aligned. So I didn't take that nudge. But when I started the company, I said, Hey, guys, it might just be a show um was kind of how we started. Because I was like, I might be in Los Angeles in August. And I don't know what that would look like after that. So let's do a show. Like we have three months to put together a show. was how we started and I think that actually was the perfect way to start because it took some of the pressure off of launching this company and we were just like producing a show and then I like I'm still in Wisconsin I have so much keeping me here so now we've been able to like okay well what does it look like moving forward and
00:11:18
Speaker
what are our goals and how are we like moving as a company where we didn't necessarily have to like approach that from day one. We're giving ourselves time and space in that way to like structure and build the foundation, which has been super great. and It sounds like even though you are an artistic director, that it's a very collaborative approach to how you're working. This is the way you're talking about it. Yeah, and i'm I'm super actually glad that it it comes off that way too. like Yes, director of the company, but I think there's so much to say about spaces that everyone's in it together. And like actually in it together, not like saying we're in it together because we wear the same name, but like actually in it. Again, growing up in the ballet world taught me so much good, but it also taught me what I don't want in a dance space sometimes.
00:12:06
Speaker
And it's changing, it's changing, but a lot of times dancers are told like to stay quiet and you like smile and nod and your voice, even if you have opinions or something to express, like the volume button gets turned down by the person in the front of the room. You're like, nope, stay quiet and do your frappe alice account. You know what I mean? So I think now that I'm in the front of a space, it's like, how can I facilitate voices to be heard? because if they're in the space, they have a voice and like that's only gonna also make a company stronger versus it just being my voice and my work and this, like I could just do that by myself and do a one-man company. you know like That's not what I'm interested in. So very collaborative, yeah.
00:12:47
Speaker
I think that's so cool. And I, I'm curious how I mean, I know it's so new. So it sounds like at this point, you have worked with people that you just know and friends you've had, and you kind of like, let's get together and do this thing together. But do you see in the future having more auditions and pulling in dancers from around? Or do you see it moving into more of like a full time company versus a project company, I guess? What is the
Future Directions and Collaborations
00:13:10
Speaker
future? yeah That is a great question. How much time do we have? No, I'm just kidding. Oh, we had time. Yeah, it's really exciting to think about the future. Because again, when I started Three Point, I was like, it might just be a show. It really came from that place. And I've said this, I actually had a really um great Zoom chat with someone last week that reached out that is also in the professional dance world across the country and was like, hey, let's just chat. And she asked us some more questions. She was like, are you going to start doing auditions? And I said, until I figure out how to change the audition format, no. And what I mean by that is,
00:13:41
Speaker
The audition format is sometimes just as sterile as some of the environments that professional dance exists in. And that's not really necessarily on anyone's shoulders, but there is room to change it. Right. Look, I remember like I went to an audition and it was so strange because I went to someone and I was like, yo, I love your sweatpants. And they were like, thanks. Like it was strange to be able to like to talk to other people. And I'm like, why is it like that? And so I think once I figure out how to restructure that then yes, but like. In the meantime, we had two guest artists in our last show who came to like one of our professional intensives and they were like, actually from out of state. They were both living in Illinois at the time, but they're super cool movers. And then I was like, Hey, do you want to be a guest artist? And they were both in the show. So it's like, I'm not actively like not looking for dancers. Like I'm totally open to it, but I'm not open to the typical audition format. Cause I think it again cuts voices off.
00:14:34
Speaker
instead of like listening to them or like I really care about the energy that is vibing in the company. And I think an audition lets you see like the talent of a dancer, but not the quality of a human because I'm interested in great humans, not just people who can hit the eight counts. Yeah. Yeah. And then as far as the company goes, we're figuring that out. of what that will look like. This is normal. We're all juggling other things. We have a company artist who's a personal trainer and is up at 6am working with clients and then is also in another professional company and we have friends who work a morning shift at 4 in the morning. So definitely coordinating how we can keep
00:15:11
Speaker
growing, but everyone is so on the same page of we're ready to grow and we're ready to keep doing it. And I don't, like we just came back from a really cool performance opportunity in Los Angeles, which was wild performing in Geometry's walk on shows at Stomp and Ground last weekend. And it was so cool. We were alongside some other companies in Los Angeles that were asked to perform as well. And I think seeing the room for growth or the possibilities in that direction, I know the way I want to go. I don't know what the end goal is. And I think we're figuring it out as we go. And I'm okay with that. Yeah, I think that's really cool. And I thought it was interesting how you said, you know, you just had met some dancers who came to an intensive and you liked the way they moved and that kind of thing. And so I guess I am curious, and you did touch on this a little bit, but if you can elaborate more of what, what draws you to a dancer when you see someone that you want to work with, what is it about them that makes you go, I need
00:16:04
Speaker
to choreograph on them or I want them in my company. Again, I think the first thing I notice is the way they like just carry themselves as a person. Like if you come into the space and this isn't always easy because coming into new spaces is really hard and challenging. But if you can like say hi to the other company artists that are there or you come up to me and you're like, Hey, how's your day going? And it's not the like, Oh, where do I stand? Where am I going? And they're just kind of comfortable in their own skin. as a person first. And then once we start getting into movement, I think if there's something that makes you unique, actually, sometimes the thing that gets you the job is what makes you look like the molds they they're looking for, which is totally valid. But I think what makes someone look different than the person standing next to them is actually what I'm drawn to. And then three point being like, how can we combine all of these individual styles and voices to something that meshes as a collective?
00:17:00
Speaker
is really interesting. Yeah, that would be my answer. That was a good question. I've never like directly thought about that. As of now, are you doing the majority of the choreography for the company or how is that working? I've done most of the choreography that we've done. But I also have brought in some, again, like friends and and colleagues in the dance world. So we have a piece in our rep right now from last summer by Maddie Thomas. She's one of the rehearsal directors for a Geometry Dance Company. in Los Angeles and a close friend. So she came in last summer and said to work as well as a Renze Aakimore. He's a close friend that lives in Seattle. He came in and said to work on us as well. So definitely open to having guest choreographers and just navigating that as we keep growing of scheduling and budgeting and all of the fun things that go along with that. Yeah. Are you a nonprofit?
00:17:52
Speaker
We are not right now. Okay, how are you managing all of that? So I guess as not being a nonprofit, you're not doing like grant funding or that kind of thing. So is it all just based on ticket sales and merch or that kind of thing? I don't want to close off the idea of becoming a nonprofit. But when you when we started within two months, it was like, all right, we're just starting and then we're gonna figure it out as we go. So that's definitely still something on the radar. Yeah, a lot through ticket sales. And then I'm also really It's a beautiful relationship because it helps fund the company, but it also gives back. like and We have several class series that we run, so we've been running a support Sundays class, which is ages 10 plus, intermediate, advanced. Anyone from the community can come take class.
00:18:33
Speaker
And then we've also launched a wonder series, which is for adult beginners ages 18 plus with like little to no dance experience that can come in and have a safe space to just start moving in their body. Cause there's not a lot of spaces that will offer that. So between class series, intensive ticket sales, we also are part of a great community at our studio that we're in residency at studio one dance company in Wales. So we've had some parents donate and who see what we're doing and are like, hey, we're here for this. We're here for you. And that's been a huge help as well. So between all those things, making it happen.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that's kind of how it how it goes with a small company, right? You just have to put it all together. And I think it is interesting, though, to hear the different ways that you are bringing an income, a lot of companies do get stuck in the nonprofit idea of we're a nonprofit. So our income is mainly grants, contributors, donations, and everything where there's so much power in the earned income. And like we obviously have a great product. and amazing dance dancers. And so you're saying you're putting on these class series and those things like that's such a great idea to also contribute to the company and also probably give your dancers increased opportunities to work and grow as artists as well. So it's all full circle there. Yeah.
00:19:48
Speaker
For sure, because I also give space for the company artists to teach. I'm like, how can I give my people more opportunities to be in the front of the room as well and and growing that way? And that's one of the ways we've been able to do that. Most of those classes, the company artists are teaching. um I step in every now and and then because we also have so many varieties of strengths. I'm one of the company artists who like is really strong in hip hop. So she'll teach a hip hop class. And then we have, like again, a personal trainer. She comes in and does some strength classes, which is great for the kids. They get to be in the front of the room like a win-win. Totally. Do you want to stop worrying about what's next after high school? You're not alone. Many dance dancers struggle with the decision of which path to take after high school. Should you attend college for dance? Should you strike out on your own in the real world of professional dance? How do you know which path is right for you? I've been there myself. That's why I teamed up with my colleague Gina McFadden of Dancer360 to bring you the college dance decision.
00:20:47
Speaker
The College Dance Decision is a digital course that will help you take stock of what you really want after high school, develop a plan and a backup plan toward achieving your goals, and provide actionable advice to connect with your parents to bring your dreams to life. We've been in your shoes. And while we took completely different paths, we both came out on the other side with professional careers in ballet. Let us save you countless hours and dollars by providing you with the structure to make an informed and powered decision about your future. Head to the link in my show notes and take action to cut through the fog of anxiety and confusion and finally get a plan for your dance future. I want to go back to choreography because I want to talk more about this.
Choreography Passion and Achievements
00:21:31
Speaker
It sounds like from your biography and everything that you really started developing a passion for choreographing in college. Is that true? That is true. Yeah. And how did that happen? Did you have a class? It's strange to think because it's so much part of me now of like,
00:21:47
Speaker
choreographing or just wanting to like exude movement. But until I was about, I think I was a sophomore in college, I didn't ever have the interest in choreographing, but it's also because I had never tried. And I had a choreography class at Butler. Two of them, one was taught by Derek Reed and the other one was taught by Susan McGuire. And both of them, like I don't know how to like express it other than when I was starting to choreograph, I felt more at home in my body. Like I was like, something just feels right. Was I good at it yet? No, of course not. I look back and I'm like, what, what is, what was I doing? But something felt right. And I was like, there's something to learn here. And there's something to like grow with here. And I'm so grateful. I think the professor saw that too. Like Susan really was like, Ash, keep running with this. Like there's something. So I think that gave me that nudge to start digging. And then I was given opportunities. Like, um, one of the other professors, Professor Kolova had asked, Hey, would you like to create work
00:22:42
Speaker
that will tour Europe. And it's like, how do you say no? You know, so it's like, yes, I was still finding and I still am finding my choreographic voice. Like, I think that's something choreographers keep finding. It's not like, Oh, I i got it. So like, sure, at age 19, when I was given an opportunity, I was still was like, learning, but I'm gonna say yes. And then there was something I learned too. Like, I love working with people. So it's like, I love choreographing, but I love being able to be in a space with people choreographing. And like, trying on my movement or our movement and structuring it. I always call it like playing dance. Like we're just going to play dance and we're going to try things and we're going to figure it out. Tell us about choreographing for Salt. NAU won a competition, correct?
00:23:24
Speaker
Yeah, their shape choreography festival last year. and I was their grand prize winner, which is still crazy to say out loud. It was such an honor, but the way that worked, I actually applied online. So there was a virtual option and there was an option to present work in Salt Lake and I am in Wisconsin and the weekend that fell, I was like, I can't make it to Salt Lake city. So I'm going to submit something online. And I had. the piece I submitted for, essentially it was for feedback. Like their choreography festival is a panel of friends in the dance world that give you feedback. And I was like, cool. I always want to keep learning and growing. So my initial intent was like, I'm gonna submit, I get feedback. That's really cool.
00:24:09
Speaker
And then the piece I submitted was one that I actually made out LA contemporary dances, choreo lab the summer before it was because of certain like restrictions. It was private on my YouTube because we're not allowed to share more than, than two minutes, you know, the the fine print of things. And so I had it shared. I got the feedback. It was super cool. I was like grateful for the experience of that. And then about like a week or two before they an announced the winners, they were like, Hey, Ash, can you like make your link public again? So we can view it for a little bit or like on listed. And I was like, sure. I think you like cool. Maybe, maybe I'm in the running for something. Cause again, that wasn't even ever crossing my brain. I shared the work again so they could take a second look at it. And then I got an email saying, Hey, you've been selected. And they flew me out to Salt Lake city last spring for a week to work with.
00:25:02
Speaker
the SALT2 company and it was such an incredible experience to be somewhere so far away, so different, of such a high caliber to be able to step into that space and create a work I'm also really proud of and it's crazy. It was it was super cool. That's amazing. Do you see yourself continuing to do more commissions and guest choreographing like that? I would love to. Also, one, I just love choreographing. And then using choreography as a tool to like connect with other people and that shared experience that happens with choreographing and with commissions where you're stepping into somewhere where you might not know anyone, be able to build that trust and exploration and curiosity through this choreography is really exciting. So definitely, yeah, always actively looking for commissions and things to keep connecting.
00:25:53
Speaker
How do you find your inspiration when you're working on a new piece? It depends. And I think when I say it depends, it depends. like I feel like some choreographers might be like, it's always this. But I think mine like fluctuates where we had a piece in our last show that kind of was drawn from just feeling really nostalgic. We had childhood videos, and it was coming from a more like vulnerable, sensitive place in my life experience, personally. And then we also have pieces like the one we just presented in Los Angeles. And we also premiered in our last show literally just because the company was vibing to this song. and We had a warmup class and I was like, yo, company, like, what do we want to listen to? And it was a Friday night. So our vibes on Friday nights sometimes are a little bit more like, I'll be like, Hey, what's, what's the mood? And without hesitation, one of the company artists said the Twilight soundtrack.
00:26:49
Speaker
And I said that the Twilight soundtrack and everyone was like, yeah, but the song decode by Paramore came on. And the energy of the whole room was like, here we are. And that ended up being our show finale. And then what we just brought to Los Angeles. So sometimes randomly, sometimes from life experience, but never forced. I think I'm learning to just to be like, all right, where are we at? Assess it. The room, like when that, when decode was playing, I was like, there's something here. I might have never directly picked that song. But it's one of my favorite pieces I've probably ever done. Well, and I think that that is such a theme of what you're telling me is it's never forced your whole career. You're not ever trying to force something to happen because you think it should happen or you think this is what dancers should do or choreographers should do your your intuition is so strong. And you're so trusting in yourself to say, let me just let this happen and trust that it's going to and look at what has happened, you know, and it's not that you're not
00:27:46
Speaker
working hard or going out there. If you're doing all the things, it's not like to minimize that anyway. But it's also that you have that inner strength to just let it happen the way it's supposed to happen. Let's just start at 10%. Let's start with one show. Let's just try something and see what happens. And we'll figure the rest out. And I think so many people just wait until everything is perfect before they start. And so many things that could be great just never happened because we're waiting for that moment where you're just like, let's just try it. And there's no ego. It's just let's go out there and see what happens. And that has led to so much success for you. Thank you.
00:28:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think moving from purpose, but trusting. And I remember like, I'll just say this because I used to get so frustrated when I had mentors and in college or after, and they would be like, Ash, like just trust. And they would be like, but look at my life. And here's the things that happened. I would get so upset because I would be like, okay, but like, should I just trust that I can pay rent next month? Or like, what's that? What's going on here? like Trusting doesn't feel practical in the dance world. Well, trusting is practical, but it doesn't feel practical. So I think then to just take that step back and be like,
00:29:00
Speaker
you can control some things but other things you'll know when it comes and to have yeah again that trust in being able to decide and do the things as they're presented to you yeah trusting doesn't feel practical that's very true and I never thought of it that way before but it's so so true because like you said it's like there are practical things in our life like pain rents eating food, living in a home, you know, that we are having to worry about. And we don't always have the luxury we feel like of trusting. And so yeah, how do you balance that? I know you're saying you always felt like frustrated by hearing that. So how have you gone to this place where you're able to balance both of these things and, and trust that you will be able to have the basic necessities of life and also be able to grow as an artist and pursue the things that feel right to you.
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's a mix of two things. I think the first one I would say in terms of like practically making it happen of like, I. feel secure and I can keep growing and do those things is having something that like does bring income in. And I think that's not spoken about a lot. And it's like, you have to be this like poor broke soul to be an artist. And I don't think that's true. I think you need to be smart about I'm like lucky enough, I landed somewhere where I get to be doing what I love teaching children, and I can pay my rent. And then because of that,
00:30:23
Speaker
I have time, space and some resources to start this passion of a company. Being smart about how you're executing everything. and making sure that you can do it. like um From like a logistic standpoint, you're like, yes, I can, because I'm also doing these other things that I love, or maybe that I don't love, but that helped pay my rent, or like whatever it is. And then I think the second thing that I would say is just like having open conversation about things. like I used to get frustrated when people would say that.
00:30:57
Speaker
Because that's all they would say. They would say, hey, it worked for me. Now that I'm in a position or starting to be in a position where like people are like, Ash, how are you doing this? I will answer them. Instead of, I feel like so often the question is like, how are you doing this? And the response is, well, I i did it. And when you're like trying to do something that's not inspiring to someone who was like, how do I get there? So I think with like the studio kids and with the company artists and everything, I just try to be as transparent as possible. of like yeah A couple years ago, I was eating a $1 rice thing in my car, feeling so stressed. There's still a lot of growth to do, but i'm able now I know I can pay my rent and I know that I can support this company and I could support Flying to Los Angeles for a while.
00:31:43
Speaker
And those aren't to be like, look at what I'm doing. It's to say like, let's talk about how we got from a $1 rice cup feeling really stressed out right after graduating college to like, Hey, like whatever that looks like of. Making crazy choices like flying to LA because it was feeding something or being able to find something you love that can support you and just having conversations about it instead of everyone's journey feeling so like hush hush to themselves. I don't think that's beneficial. No, I totally agree. And I think there's a stigma people have around having a side gig or even around having money as a dancer. It's like you must not be a real dancer if you're not suffering for your arts. And it's so harmful because it's okay.
00:32:29
Speaker
to be comfortable and to have the ability to have an opportunity pop up and say I could go do that actually. I am in a place financially where I have done another gig that is supporting me and that's okay there's no shame in it and I think it really keeps a lot of dancers stuck because they believe that if they're doing that then they're not really a dancer or they're not really living their dream and it's like well what is your dream you know my dream like I agree it was to dance, but also to be able to have a life that I didn't feel constantly like was I going to be able to
Balancing Art and Financial Stability
00:33:01
Speaker
pay my rent? Was everything going to go on a credit card? I wanted to be able to feel like I could save for retirement, you know, all those things have led to a better quality of life because your stress is not so high. And now you can come into the studio and actually give your all instead of feeling so worried.
00:33:16
Speaker
Yeah. And I think part of that too, and and this is a thought I just had as you were sharing that is I think part of it too, especially say if it's in a dance space and it's like teaching or it's even like a normal human job is like also knowing your worth and being able to be like, Hey, maybe I could get paid for that or get paid more for that. And having again, those transparent conversations, because I think The dance world trains you to expect less for yourself, especially as a female in the dance world. And that's beginning to change, but especially growing up in the ballet world, there's a thousand kajillion females looking for jobs. So you're, you're made to feel like not like less than you don't always have a high, like I'm worth this. And it feels like that because everyone's doing the same thing. Like you're worth the world, but everyone's also doing it.
00:34:02
Speaker
So I think when you're in a position of like a side gig or whatever that is, like supporting you, I don't have to do the bare minimum and I can ask for more if my like qualifications represent that. And I think people are afraid to do that, that grow up in the dance world because you're always told to stay quiet. You know what I mean? It's like a ah hard circle to break out of. Well, you're told if you don't accept these conditions of this contract or these terms, then someone else will. Exactly. So you should just do this. And so you feel this fear of speaking out and like, well, if I say anything, I'm not going to have the shop anymore. But what I've learned, you know, over time is if I feel that way about a job, do I even want that job if I feel so scared to say anything? And of course, sometimes it is just this ingrained
00:34:48
Speaker
part of us. And sometimes it is an outside force and it is trying to decipher, is it really not okay for me to say something? Will I lose this job? Or am I just telling myself that? Because that's what I've grown up with these into other parts of our lives. And I had this experience with a job that I was going to do a few years ago, where I was going to put on a children's production for a performance. And we had kind of discussed the pay rate ahead of time and had like loose terms set. And then when I got the contract, it was much, much lower than I had expected. And I just flat out said,
00:35:20
Speaker
I can't do it for this rate when I weighed the time commitments and my level of experience. And 10 years before that, I would have said yes to that about I would have been like, this is amazing. But having done so many shows, having been a school director having taught for over a decade, I was like, I know that I can do this to such a high quality. I know that I deserve to be paid more for this. I'm ever gonna ask for something I feel to be exorbitant. But it's okay to say I think I deserve this rate. And When it came down to it, we couldn't meet on it and I had to let that job go and it was a bummer because I really wanted to do it. But I really felt after that all happens, like, okay, I'm glad that I didn't go into this and say yes to these terms that I wasn't comfortable with because I would have been resentful. I wouldn't have done my best work. I would have been annoyed about the whole entire time, like I should be making more. And the point of a contract is that you've agreed to these terms. So if you don't agree to it, you shouldn't sign it.
00:36:15
Speaker
And I think that's something that I wouldn't have had the strength or the self awareness to do earlier in my career. And part of it is because I had less experience. So what did I really think I had to say in those terms, I took, you know, having that life experience and saying, Oh, I do know what I'm doing here. And I do know what I'm worth in this sense. And so it's such a hard conversation because I feel like everyone wants to know, well, at what point can I ask for more? At what point should I be getting paid for this? There's no hard and clear answer more about how does it make you feel? When you look at this contract, do you feel valued? Do you feel like you're going to get what you need out of this? And if you don't feel that way, it's okay to say no. Something else will come along. And I think that we get so stuck in that feeling of what if this is it?
00:36:58
Speaker
I think that's a big part of it because especially to like growing up, you're told just if you get something at the end of training and when you're ready to go into the real world, like take it, that's always the mindset. And so like when I got there, I did, I did what I thought I was supposed to be doing. I got the contract and I took it, but then it's like, as you learn and we're always learning and getting more experience and knowledge. It's not about taking everything. It's about taking like the right things for you. The perfect contract for someone else might be the opposite of what you need. So like really looking at what your path is and what the contract would mean for you, not just the contract objectively. and I think there's such a big subjective part that goes to any contract that needs to be acknowledged, because it would be your contract. Yeah, it's so tricky to be able to find that sense of self trust and be able to
00:37:45
Speaker
say no to things is really hard and be able to say yes to things. And I've also signed contracts that were for zero dollars that I felt so good about. You know, I'm not certain to be able to say, okay, actually, I'm okay with that because this is important to me. And so there's not like, oh, you should always be paid this much or don't say yes to it. If it's under this amount, it's like you got away all the different things and decide if it fits for you. Exactly. I'm curious before we wrap up, This has been such a good conversation, Ashley. And I just want to hear one final piece of advice you would give to dancers who are pursuing a professional career. I think my piece of advice I would give would be to not always listen to the outside noise that might be coming your way. And what I mean by that is for a long time, like, like, I didn't feel like a fit in the ballet world either. I was a ballerina and I could fit, but it didn't feel like a fit. Some professors were like, hey, Ash, like, what about contemporary?
00:38:40
Speaker
And I didn't listen to it. And so here's where I'm gonna go with this is like, don't listen to the outside noise. But if you have mentors or people in your life, trust what they're saying, um or trust that there could be something there. and And sometimes those are hard truths, right? Where I was like, Oh, yeah, maybe like contemporary. Yeah, I've trained my whole life for ballet, but maybe not. And to really build a network of people whose voices you can listen to. Because I think if you don't have people who you can listen to, it gets really lonely and your voice gets really confused. But if everyone is coming in and you're like saying, you're this, you're not this, you're this, sign this, don't sign this. It's too much. So I think someone who wants to pursue dance professionally to build a network of three to four people who you can trust and who are doing what you want to be doing. I think that's super important. And while you're doing that to trust your own voice.
00:39:34
Speaker
to still have that trust in your own voice where even like regardless, you're okay making hard decisions or doing things that on the outside to other people might look crazy. Like flying to Los Angeles twice a month last year for 12 months straight was completely crazy. It was not practical. And people were like, Ashley, why are you doing this? And I was like, because this company and this director and these people are bringing my spark for dance back. I will keep going twice a month and fly like spirit and sleep on planes and I will do it. Like it didn't make sense, but I will do it. So I think to be okay doing the crazy things, if there's a reason you're doing them and to keep trusting your own voice in your own
Advice for Dancers
00:40:14
Speaker
path. And again, like those crazy things led me to people that are now my circle, that are the three or four people. So knowing that there's always a reason.
00:40:23
Speaker
Yeah, and the community is so huge. And I think a lot of what I've learned about finding the people that I gravitate to and I need advice or someone to talk to are not the ones who tell me you should do this. They're the ones who ask me the right questions and really help me work through all of that and figure out what I am actually wanting to do by asking me the right questions and getting to the root of it. And so I've kind of found over time that those are the people who have my back, they just want me to discover what's right for me. And that has been so huge. Yes. Yeah, I would agree so heavily with that. It's not about building a lot of connections. It's about building the right ones. And again, I think that goes
00:41:00
Speaker
Ms. Consrud is a dancer would be like, how many connections can I make? And how many people do I know? And that will give me more opportunities, but I think it's just about having the right ones. The right ones are the people who will say your name in a room that you're not in. If you're not building that, then maybe you're not actually building a connection or a network. Yeah, having those people who speak your name when that opportunity comes up and puts you out there for things. That's huge. Yeah, yeah I love this. Ashley, this has been such a great conversation. and You go ahead and tell us how to find you or how to find your company if anyone wants to get in touch with you. Any social media is great. My Instagram Ashley dot Tomoszewski three point project Wisconsin
00:41:40
Speaker
Three Point Project, Wisconsin, wi.com. Shoot me an email. I love just chatting. So even if you want to reach out and you're like, Hey, I just have more questions or want to continue a conversation. Let's do it. And totally here for that at any time. That's awesome. And I will put all of that into the show notes too, for anyone listening. Thank you so much for coming on today, Ashley. And it was great to reconnect with you. Thank you so much for having me.
00:42:06
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too. I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Valorina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.