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15. Fostering Mental Wellness Through Community with Danscend
108 Plays3 months ago
Kristin Deiss and Michelle Loucadoux, the founders of Danscend, are on a mission to bring mental wellness to the forefront of dance training by providing a space for education, application, and community to dancers, educators, and professionals.
In this episode, we talk allllll the things mental wellness. Everything from finding balance, to dealing with negative self talk and forging an identity outside of being a dancer. We dive into the power of community and the importance of feeling supported in your dance career. Kristen and Michelle are incredibly open in sharing their stories and tools to help you better navigate the world of dance.
Key Moments:
- Kristin & Michelle’s dance background [2:17]
- How Danscend was born [6:25]
- Finding balance and setting boundaries [9:03]
- The importance of finding the fun in dance [18:23]
- Kristin and Michelle’s biggest struggles with mental health throughout their dance journey [21:31]
- Tools for dancers struggling with negative self-talk [27:35]
- Tools to help dancers discover their identity outside of being a dancer [33:10]
- The power of community for dancers [38:17]
- Their biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [49:45]
Connect with Danscend:
THEIR WEBSITE: danscend.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/danscendoffical
Links and Resources:
Click here for one FREE month of Danscend’s Council for Educators with code BRAINY
Set up ticketing for your next event with DRT (Make sure to mention that The Brainy Ballerina sent you!)
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at [email protected]
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Transcript
The Passion and Pitfalls of Dance
00:00:00
Speaker
Dancers, especially, have such love and passion for what we do, that it's easy to put blinders on and just to go full steam ahead. And that that is so wonderful, and you shouldn't ever like snuff that flame, but just know that whenever you get an inkling that like, oh, wow, I'm tired, this is exhausting, I feel depleted, then you really need to start looking at other ways you can bring things into your life because it it's going to be hard, of course, but it shouldn't feel draining all the time.
00:00:40
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your turns.
Founding of Dance End: Mental Wellness in Dance
00:01:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Kristin Dice and Michelle Likudu, the founders of Dance Ends. Kristin and Michelle have shared a 60 years between them in the dance industry, and after working together in the education field for many of those years, the idea for Dance End was born. Dance Sense mission is to bring mental wellness to the forefront of dance training by providing a space for education, application, and community to dancers, educators, and professionals. I have been a huge fan of their work since day one, and I cannot wait to share their insights with you. Hello, Kristin and Michelle.
00:01:52
Speaker
right hey I'm so happy to have you on today. And I want to start by just getting the quick hits about your backgrounds. I'm realizing right now that I really want to have each of you on probably individually so we can go deeper into your stories. So we can take that offline. But just if you want to go ahead and give us, you know, the very quick bio of your background and in the dance industry and what led you to where you are today. So Michelle, do you want to go first? Sure. So like you, I was a nerdy ballerina. I grew up dancing just ballet all the time. um I went to ABT in New York to study and then when I graduated from high school, I went out to dance with Richmond Ballet. I danced for ballet companies for about five years, four or five years, Richmond Ballet, New Jersey Ballet, a few others, and then a friend double dog dared me to audition for a musical.
00:02:48
Speaker
And I auditioned and for some reason got the job and then I fell in love. And then I did musical theater for the next more than a decade, probably 15 years. I was on Broadway for almost 10 years. I did five Broadway shows, Beauty and the Beast, Mary Poppins, Little Mermaid, Anything Goes, and Chance and Chemistry. And then I moved to LA and I did some TV and film out here, some music videos, dance for some artists. And then I found higher education, which I Fell in love with and that is where I met Kristin at a college out here in l LA and I'm still teaching out here and loving teaching and Doing dance and amazing.
Personal Journeys of Kristin and Michelle
00:03:29
Speaker
Okay, Kristin tell us your story
00:03:31
Speaker
So my story is a little bit of a circular story, I would say. I started as a bunhead, just like you two. We're all bunheads here. That should be the name of a book. I think it is. Oh, well then there you go. We love the book club. So see no ideas ever original if anyone's listening. to that. ah So I started off training. My goal was to be you know a professional ballet dancer. I trained at the Rock School, the Pennsylvania Ballet, SAB, the Miami City Ballet School, and then I was diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis.
00:04:07
Speaker
And I was very lucky in that it went into remission fairly quickly, but I was just, my body was just getting beat up and it was injury after injury after injury after injury. Like I would break a bone and then I'd come back and break another one. Like it was just constant. And it got to the point where I was like, I don't think this is actually sustainable, like physically or mentally. My mental health was just tanked. And I didn't have the language to really understand that. So like the intense person that I am, I threw away all my pointe shoes and leotards and quit dance. And I went to college to get my degree in history. I went to UNC Chapel Hill to get my PhD in history. And after I got my master's, I was like, what am I doing? This is not who I am. This is not my life. I went back to school. I went to Tisch at and NYU, got my MFA in dance performance and choreography, and really started to fall in love with
00:05:03
Speaker
the art form outside of ballet before i didn't really think i thought modern was a waste of time i thought like contemporary was just for people who couldn't be ballet dancers like that was really what i thought and then i like started doing it and i was like this is awesome no wonder so many people love this like it's a totally different thing so I danced for some companies in New York for a little bit and then yeah I went and got my MFA because I had dreams of being in higher education. I sort of wanted to teach people methods and ways to cope with how hard it is to train in this world.
COVID-19 and the Need for Dance End
00:05:42
Speaker
So I got my MFA to go into higher education and then I moved to l LA and there was a lot of opportunity out here for that. And so that's what I've been doing since.
00:05:51
Speaker
teaching in higher education and obviously you know Michelle and I both went through some of our own personal experiences which led us to Dance End and to really being a mouthpiece for the importance of mental health for the dance community. Amazing. I want to get into some of those experiences, but I'm curious first to hear more about how you met. I know you said you met in higher education, but maybe more in depth with that. And also just, I'd love to hear how the idea for Dance End was born. What was that process like? We both taught at a school out here that was called Pushing College and is now merged with Amda. So we are both at Amda now, and it was COVID.
00:06:37
Speaker
We were hanging out, we had both had two little boys and we were at a play date with them outside at a park, you know, like you do in COVID outside social distancing. And we were talking about how our dancers were struggling at the college in our classes. And then we kind of started talking about like, well, I struggled with that too, because, and then we were like, wait a minute, we have so many similar experiences. And then we kind of got into like, wow, I bet a lot of dancers have had a lot of mental health challenges and like struggles. So we were like, what can we do? So we started to create a few resources for our dancers at the college. I reached out to a friend who's a mental health professional and we started making some things. And then we were like, wait a minute, this is actually, I mean, it started with journaling prompts and a worksheet or two or like an exercise. And then from there we were like, wait a minute,
00:07:34
Speaker
We think other people could use this. So we actually at that point reached out to a lot of our former students from the college and did a pretty extensive round of beta testing. So we put together a program that we initially called, I don't even remember, I think it's called nourishing the whole dancer now, but it had a bunch of different names. And we asked them to go through our program for free and then tell us what their thoughts are, what was working, what wasn't. From there, we put together an
Balancing Professional and Personal Life in Dance
00:08:03
Speaker
advisory board of mental health professionals to help us make sure that all of our science backed resources were in line with current research. And then from there, we kind of
00:08:17
Speaker
went, we started reaching out to schools and dance competitions and colleges and dance organizations. And now we are at the point where we have a lot of really engaged organizations and we are trying to figure out how to help everybody with maintaining our sleep and our life. So yeah, that's been really cool. Yeah, and that balance is really hard to find, I know. And as a two-woman show, do you have any other employees or is it just you doing all of it? We have our advisory board. We have, I think, a total of seven on our advisory board. And then we have one fantastic human, Eric Yang, who helps us with media, with filming, editing, that kind of thing.
00:09:01
Speaker
And how do you find this balance in your life personally? Because I think this is definitely something a lot of dancers struggle with, this desire to want to do it all and want to help everyone and having a lot of skills and not knowing always how to draw those boundaries and decide how much you can realistically do without burning yourself out in the process. So I'm curious Do you have some specific guidelines? Do you keep each other in check? How do you make that work? I feel like because of the experiences that I had when I was young, where I devoted my entire life to one expectation that didn't
00:09:45
Speaker
come to fruition due to reasons beyond my control. I learned a lesson the hard way very early on that you just don't have control over everything. And if you put all of your eggs in one basket, when that basket inevitably falls, because at some point, like the only constant is change, right? You won't be prepared for that change. So I feel like I've tried to be really, really easy on myself. And if I get it done, I get it done. If I don't, I don't. But you know what? The world keeps turning. It's really not the end of the world when you can't do it all, all the time.
00:10:25
Speaker
And it's not my nature, trust me. like I say that and that it is not my nature. I'm just constantly trying to remind myself of that. I think it helps that I married someone whose nature definitely is to just relax and chill. And that's not my my nature. So I think he's rubbed off on me a little bit. I'm constantly saying to Michelle, like don't worry about it. We don't have to do it. It's fine. like Don't worry about it. And I think actually what helps to be honest, is knowing that I have someone else on the team. If it were just myself, the amount of pressure that I would feel would be so intense, but I know that there's someone else there. And I know that when one of us is down and out, the other one can pick up the slack. And I think that our relationship in so many ways, but in being business partners is so special, because I really do like trust wholeheartedly that if I needed something,
00:11:19
Speaker
business or otherwise, like Michelle would be there in an instant, no question. And hopefully she feels the same. And so I, I feel like it's just, it's easy. It's like a good union, you know, it's like a good merit, a good partnership. Like when one's down, the
Goal Setting and Avoiding Burnout
00:11:33
Speaker
other is up. And so I think we balance each other out really well that way. We're both super motivated and goal oriented and go, go, go, go, which is great. And this is why we're doing what we're doing. This is how we sort of became entrepreneurs, but I think we try to really remind each other. like We have families, which is important to us. We have children, important to us.
00:11:57
Speaker
And we have other jobs, like this isn't our only job. And so all of this to say, one of the things that I find is the most important when you're talking about finding a balance is surrounding yourself with people who will remind you to keep that balance in check, or who you feel like will help you find that balance. Because when you feel like you're doing it all on your own, it's really hard to find a balance. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Kristen actually taught me something this this quarter that I'm finding is really refreshing for me because I tend to set really really high goals and I'm like I'm gonna make 100 calls per day every day for the next month and then
00:12:42
Speaker
life happens and you know whatever but we usually meet once every three months right before a new quarter and we come up with a new quarter goal for what we want to focus on for the next three months and we met in mid-march so I teach at a college out here in l LA but I also travel with a dance competition and convention so I leave on Friday I come back on Sunday night and then Monday we're with our council and then I teach so it's like During the competition season. I'm really busy and then we were trying to figure out what we're gonna do for Q2 What are we gonna do for Q2 and Kristen goes I know let's survive What no we have to we have to grow revenue we have to blah blah blah blah and she's like nope We don't not this quarter. We can just survive for the next three months. Let's just do that what we are supposed to do. Let's keep this business running. Let's have our lives. Kristen, I don't even think you know this. like It has been such a
Self-Compassion in Dance
00:13:41
Speaker
like relief that like I don't have this thing that's like running in my brain that we have to do this in the next three months. That that relief has actually allowed me to kind of
00:13:53
Speaker
free up some brain space for thinking about other things, but also if I have some extra time, I do the other things. So it's just taken off a lot of pressure, but I'm still being as productive as I would have, but not overachieving so much that it's impacting the rest of my life. So I think i'd like a takeaway from that for anyone who's like literally trying to do it all is you can lower your goals and still achieve at the same level but with less pressure. Yeah. I love that. Thank you for sharing. I was a little scared when you were like, Kristen taught me something. Who knows what the heck comes out of my mouth sometimes.
00:14:32
Speaker
That's such a great example of how this plays out in real life because we talk about this a lot in council, self-compassion, the idea of self-compassion. And the pioneer of self-compassion research, Dr. Kristin Neff, always talks about there's this myth that if you are less hard on yourself and if you are kinder to yourself, your motivation will just fall away. Like you won't do things and you'll become lazy and then you just will you know sit on the couch and eat bonbons or whatever your definition or idea of lazy is. But in reality, you give yourself the space to your point, Michelle, to be your best self. And if your best self is already someone who's motivated, who loves what they do, who wants to make a difference in the world, which by the way, is all of us at our best.
00:15:20
Speaker
then you will show up as that person every day and feel really good about what you're doing and achieve what you would have achieved anyway maybe even exceeded because you're not feeling guilt or pressure or you know all of the negative stuff that comes with like high pressure situations kind of melts away when you're kind to yourself and you give yourself space and you're like oh yeah I'm a human being who not only holds five jobs and is a mom and is a wife and is a friend and is a this that and the other who also needs to eat three meals a day sleep eight hours a day I do have to pee sometimes that takes time I also should shower every now and then and you know what
The Joy and Fun in Dance
00:16:01
Speaker
I really like gardening so
00:16:02
Speaker
I've got 20 minutes like you're having to do all these things and when you accept that and you look at it and you're like how beautiful that is then you're able to do more. I think it's like some of us have dancers especially have such love and passion for what we do that it's easy to put blinders on and just to go full steam ahead. And that that is so wonderful and you shouldn't ever like snuff that flame. But just know that whenever you get an inkling that like, oh wow, I'm tired, this is exhausting, I feel depleted, then you really need to start looking at other ways you can bring things into your life. Because it it's gonna be hard, of course, but it shouldn't feel draining all the time.
00:16:56
Speaker
According to a survey of dancers conducted by Minding the Gap, 75% of dancers reported experiencing a mental health challenge in the past five years. To say dancers need mental health support ASAP is an understatement, which is why I am so excited to tell you about Dance N's Council for Educators. Dancin's Council for Educators gives you dancer mental wellness information, tips, and exercises in whatever format works best for you. Need a short video about how to help dancers through perfectionism? They've got you. Want to listen to a self-talk podcast on your drive? Absolutely. How about real-time virtual sessions with mental health professionals? It's all inside your membership. And this isn't just fluff.
00:17:41
Speaker
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00:18:22
Speaker
This is not an easy career. We know that. We know it's a lot of work, but we didn't get into this to feel awful or to feel drained or to not like what we do anymore. We got into it because we took a dance class for a lot of us when we were little kids and we thought, hey, this is really fun. And it just kind of kept going through our life. And we just tend to lose that funnel on the way somehow. and I think that's something that we have in common, I've noticed, you know, at our work and our social media, that kind of thing. I think we both really try to bring in the fun. I really value humor in my work. I know you do too. And I think that it's something in the dance world that is sometimes looked down upon as like, they're not taking this seriously. We can take our work really seriously and still have fun.
00:19:05
Speaker
And you know what? It makes you, at the end of the day, it makes you a better dancer. It really does. When I moved to LA, it was 2014. I had already sort of made the shift in my mind, like, where I'm really moving into wanting to teach full-time and kind of away from performing. But I would do little gigs here and there. But I was in class once. I just have the most awful resting, I won't say the word face. When I'm concentrating, I just look evil and I look like I'm not having any fun. That's just what I look like when I take class, which is terrible. I know that. But I was falling into bad habits because I wasn't in class to like train for a performance. I was just in class for me, right? So I'm like, I have this like scowl on my face probably.
00:19:53
Speaker
and it was like an adult class you know there's like women in their 90s that are still looking amazing i'm like dang i'm there like sweating i'm like i have to get my leg up my ear like why i don't know but i'm taking this class and we get to center and the instructor like walks over to me and he's like are you having fun and i was like I didn't know how to answer it. I was like, does he want me to say yes? Does he want me to say no? Like what's happening? And he's like, because you should be having fun and you don't look like you're having fun. And I want you to have fun. I don't have any expectation for you except to have
Negative Self-Talk and Identity Challenges
00:20:28
Speaker
fun. So just have fun.
00:20:30
Speaker
And I was like, oh my gosh. And here I am. I mean, and I was in my early thirties at the time, like I'm still being told and having to still be reminded that dance is supposed to be fun. I will never forget that because it really is. Like even when it's just supposed to be fun, I was struggling. I think to your point, Caitlin, like so many of us find it really hard to take it seriously, but also have fun at the same time. And so anything you can do, whether it's like, you know, the fun reels on Instagram that make you giggle or whether it's like telling yourself some funny joke in the middle of class, like it can go a long way and it makes you a better dancer and you stand out in a better way. You don't stand out as the girl that's not having fun or the person, the dancer that's not having fun. You stand out as the person that's like so captivating because they're having fun and you can't help but watch them.
00:21:22
Speaker
yeah Exactly. I want to go back a little bit to talk about some of your struggles when you were training, when you were at any point in your training or career, really. But if you had to choose one thing that you struggled with the most, what would that be? You know, it changes as I learn more and as I kind of like look back. If you'd asked me a year ago, I would have said body image, but throughout my dance career did have a lot of struggles with my body. A lot of company directors that asked me to lose weight. I was let go from one company because
00:22:00
Speaker
They said that my body wasn't the right type of body for that season. And so I did have a lot of external but also internal struggles with my body. But the more I think about it, the more I realize, yes, that was a challenge, but it was what I was saying to myself in my head that was getting in the way of me actually paying attention to my dancing. I always, through my whole like dancing career, have had a running tally of how many calories I have consumed throughout the day. You know, I'd be like, oh wow, like I only ate 150 calories for breakfast and so I must look thin and I'm like looking in the mirror and then there's, oh, this person's looking at me and it would be a running a running tally of am I in standing at the bar space that has the skinny mirror? And then there was always this recurring thought of
00:22:54
Speaker
i don't belong here i don't have a ballet body they don't want me here and so i would think all of that consistently and when i look back at it my negative self-talk was actually keeping me from focusing on like dancing You know, like, hey, Michelle, turn out your standing leg when you're doing the promenade. I never thought about what it feels like to dance. I always looked at dance from the outside in and I wish I could go back and experience that without that running negative self-talk ticker tape in my head telling me
00:23:34
Speaker
you don't belong, you have a bad ballet body, they are looking at you, like, why did you wear that leotard? So that was a recurring struggle throughout my career. I got in my own way, in a way that's kind of sad, because I think I could have, like Kristen said, enjoyed it a lot more. Yeah, I want to come back to that. But I want to hear Kristen, what would be your number one struggle that you felt like you dealt with? I don't know, I think it's kind of like a tie between, well I think it all is the same, between like my identity as a dancer was 100% wrapped up in my value as a human being. Like I was only valuable to the world in so far as I was a good dancer. And if I wasn't, if I didn't have a good class,
00:24:23
Speaker
If I only got eight at the time, I was calling them corrections. If I only got eight corrections during that class and someone else got 10, I would count. And then I didn't do a good enough job. Then why am I even alive? Like, I mean, some of the things that I used to think about myself and my value were really dark. What a terrible way to live. Quite honestly, you know, because here's something And this ties again to like it just sucks the fun out of it. Like here's something that I loved more than anything in the world and it brought me so much pain. So much pain. And the thing about it is I thought that that was normal. I thought that that's what it was supposed to be. Like I had such a toxic relationship with this thing that I loved so much and
00:25:13
Speaker
I don't think it was malintentioned, but I was in an environment no matter where I was. Those three separate big institutions, but just the dance industry in general at the time, that supported that toxic relationship by their actions, by their words, made me believe that that's what it was supposed to be. but Now don't get me wrong, I had some amazing instructors throughout my career and my training that sort of We're not in that mold, but I couldn't hear them. They couldn't break through. They couldn't penetrate the like iron walls of, well, you don't know. And I remember having thoughts of, like well, that's a nice thought. That's not how I get what I want. I would say that that's really what I struggled with the most. And then as you might imagine, like
00:26:04
Speaker
when I realized I couldn't do it anymore. Like, who am I? Why am I here on this earth? What value do I bring? I don't have anything to offer if I'm not a good dancer. And I would hate for anyone to feel that way. And I think a lot of us feel that way. And then, I mean, you don't have fun. You don't love yourself in any way, shape or form because loving yourself when you book the job is not loving yourself. And then you don't have healthy relationships with people in your life because you don't even really understand what unconditional love is.
00:26:41
Speaker
And then you just, you know, you're like robbing yourself of the opportunity to really get to know who you are and the amazing human being that you are, dance included. But what else is there for you? Like there's so much about ourselves that we shut the door to because we only are interested in what we can provide or what we can achieve in the dance studio. a lot of dancers experience both of those things. I definitely experienced both of those things myself. I would love to ah talk about some tools that we can use. So if a dancer is struggling with negative self-talk, and I think one thing that I've noticed a lot with self-talk is that we don't even realize that we are doing it. Like you said, you didn't necessarily have the language for it or realize you were doing it.
00:27:29
Speaker
but it's this constant running thread in our heads. And so I think one of the things that I've noticed is just being like, wow, why am I talking to myself like that? You know, it's been a big thing for me, but I am curious if you had a dancer come to you and tell you they are struggling with that. What are some tools you would give them? How would you help them work through that? but I think you hit the nail on the head. I think we don't recognize what we are saying to ourselves. So I think the first step I would say is to really start, this sounds so cliche, but like start journaling. Like what is going on in your head? And sometimes when I started journaling, I've been journaling for a long time, but I would look at the page and be like, wow, that is a really mean thing to say to someone.
00:28:15
Speaker
You know, like, oh my gosh, like I'm being really mean to myself. Around 80% of our thoughts are negative and 80 to 95% of our thoughts are recurring. To kind of take it back, Chris has no new ideas. Like in our own brains, there actually are very few new ideas. So we just keep telling ourselves these things over and over again. Mine was, I don't belong. I don't have the ballet body. No one likes me. you know And then that would just keep running through my head. And then our brains are really amazing because i mean they take in trillions of bits of information and they filter based on what we believe. And we can only process 40 to 50 bits of information in a second. So our brains are looking for relevance. So if we're telling ourselves
00:29:02
Speaker
I don't fit in or I don't belong here. We are looking for reasons to prove that right. And our brain is looking for reasons to prove that right. And so recognizing those negative thought loops first is really important and like writing them down and finding patterns. What do I feel like I tell myself on a regular basis? Because we all do it. You're not a bad person. If you are saying bad things to yourself in your head, that means you're like normal. You know it's like an evolved trait a lot of scientists believe so you know that negative self-taught kept us alive back when we were cave humans and now here we are. So once you can recognize those negative thought loops or those phrases you say to yourself the next thing I would say to do is to ask yourself are those always true?
00:29:50
Speaker
So I don't belong here. Do you really not 100% always belong here or can you refute those negative self-talk loops and start to kind of pick that apart and then we can realize it's not 100% always true. I am not 100% always lazy. I just happen to like sleep through my alarm this day or I'm not 100% always bad at pirouettes. Hey, I did that one good pirouette. Wow. Okay. So starting to refute those can actually help our brain start to recognize that that might not be the one thing that we need to hang on to and then keep finding evidence to prove it right. That's really, really helpful. I think that the answer is can just kind of start there with this seemingly small action of just noticing a thought and
00:30:37
Speaker
Like you said, is this even true? Going from there, do you want to replace those thoughts with another positive thought? Or do you just kind of want to let those thoughts pass you by? Once you've gone through that initial period of realizing how you're talking to yourself, how can you start to rework yourself talk? The first thing is to kind of recognize and refute and then just like try to see what actually is real and what isn't because we tend to be like the negative is always real the positive is never true when someone tells us that we're good at be something we just.
00:31:11
Speaker
shun it away like, you know, we' like, Oh, not really, you're just being nice. So shifting the negative self talk into more positive, sometimes isn't it easy to do that with yourself. Going from I hate my body to I love my body all the time. I'm amazing can be really
Finding Identity Beyond Dance
00:31:28
Speaker
hard. So a good first step into shifting that can be recognizing the positive attributes and other people. complimenting people, training your brain to be a little bit more positive, to find more positive things in the world, and then hopefully it'll shift towards your brain finding more positive aspects of yourself. Okay, that's great advice.
00:31:53
Speaker
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00:32:46
Speaker
And Kristin, I want to go back now to talking about the identity piece of it because a lot of dancers struggle with that. I didn't even realize I struggled with it. I thought that I was very well-rounded and very like, I have other things in my life I care about. And I do feel like as a dancer, I did have that. But even when I retired from dance, I still was shocked at how much I struggled and how much my identity was still wrapped up. And honestly, to this day, I still feel that way. It's a constant battle to feel comfortable in a new life. and to be like, oh, this is who I am now. And I love this part of my life, but I still miss that. I still feel this sense of loss from my career and also a sense of like, who am I? Because I kind of felt like I went from being a dancer to being a mother. Like I replaced this identity with a new identity instead of like trying to figure out who I am. And I still feel like it's hard to figure that out. What are some pieces of advice you would give to a dancer struggling with this piece of having their identity wrapped up so, so tightly in ballet?
00:33:44
Speaker
First, I would say that like with negative self-talk, if you are struggling with this, you are not alone. It is very common and it is super common for high achievers, which are most dancers. Part of the reason why this can be really tough, obviously aside from the like When you transition out of dance, you have this identity loss and this moment of grieving because you're like, well, there goes who I am, who am I now? You're also more prone to burnout. And the research shows that people who highly identify with their sport over identification, it's called, will more likely experience burnout than other people. And I don't necessarily know that it can be avoided completely.
00:34:32
Speaker
I think that it is normal to feel sad when dance is not playing the same role in your life that it once did. I also think it's normal to identify so strongly with it where you're like, I am a dancer. I mean, so many of us say I am a dancer rather than I am a person who dances because it is so special. It is how we experience the world. It is how we communicate. It's just so special. You don't have to lose that. But I think that you do have to try to bring other things in. And it can be really, really hard to do that on your own.
00:35:05
Speaker
One of the best exercises you can do is to ask the people around you to identify the way that they see you. To describe, what do I bring to your life? I would be very shocked, I'll say. If a dancer who was hearing this asked their best friend, who probably also was a dancer, what do I bring to your life? I don't know that that other best friend would be like, oh, you're dancing, of course. you know I'm sure they would be complimentary and be like, you're an amazing dancer, but like, That's not how they see your value, right? You bring something other than that to them. And the people in our lives play such a crucial role in helping us find our own values that make us an incredible dancer. But you know for you, Caitlin, the same things that made you an incredible dancer also make you an incredible human and probably right now make you an incredible mother.
00:36:02
Speaker
And there's that through line that is so easy for us to not see when we're in it, but other people could tell you what that through line is. Like if you ask the people who knew you as a dancer and who now know you as a mom, they might be able to easily identify that where you would have trouble doing that. And the same for me. Like when I said goodbye to dance, not knowing that I would come back to it, you know, I just completely fell apart. I didn't know who I was, but I was bringing the same passion the same zest, the same curiosity. You know, I was the same person. I didn't feel like it, but I was. I was the same person. And so if it had not been for the people in my life who supported me, there's no way I would have made it through. And I really urge everyone listening, if you feel like your identity is so wrapped up in dance, number one, you're not alone. Number two,
00:36:57
Speaker
Make sure that you understand how other people see you and start to really take that in because it's hard to see yourself. and start asking the people around you how they see you and really look at the people around you with like, I'll say a curious eye because they have more influence on you than you know. So if they're telling you awful things about yourself and they don't see the greatness in you, they gotta go. Sorry, like they can't be in your life because they will have such influence over you.
00:37:30
Speaker
Yeah, so I would say the first thing is is to just ask other people, like play a game with your friends, write down the five things that you all love about each other, the values that you bring, like what you bring to each other's lives and start listening to that because that can help you see your value as a human being and not just a dancer. Yeah. that's really good i feel like one of the common threads that i keep hearing from both of you as the power of community it's kind of just permeating everything that we've talked about and
00:38:03
Speaker
That's one thing that I am curious about too, because like you said, Kristin, most likely when you're a dancer, all your friends are dancers. And this is something that I struggled with the most when I retired. I missed dancing, scene and I missed the stage, but I was ready for that part of my life to be over. What I didn't expect was how much I was going to miss the community, how much I would miss the dressing room, just having those chats before class. having this common goal we're working toward or even having like a bad day where you have like a step everyone's struggling with and we're all just aligned and like really hating the step or whatever it is you know you have this sense of everyone working together and I am curious if you have advice as to people who have transitioned out of mostly out of the performing space and into other areas of the dance
00:38:46
Speaker
industry or of your careers? How do you find a community of people who get you? I am asking myself the same question. I mean, obviously, we have found incredible humans, yourself included, thanks to social media and the internet. And that is one of the greatest things of social media is that it connects people across boundaries there, you know, we would have never met you otherwise. have we not had this tool. And so for people who are really looking for community, that can be one of the ways to do it. Like find your folks, find your people, join the groups, join the Facebook group. I mean,
00:39:28
Speaker
Facebook groups for dance teachers are popping off. They are always going on. It is like sometimes it's the drama for me. I'm not gonna lie. I'm just I'm like, it is juicy. But like, you've got your popcorn. Yes, but those are my people and I'm laughing. I get the jokes and I'm like, Oh, this is you know, and it, it feels like There is some of that there. Now you do need like real human being interaction as well. So don't just rely on that, but it can be such a wonderful tool to help you find those groups. And then the other thing too, I will say, and then I'll throw it to you, Michelle. Like when I was, I mean, I'm still a little bit like this because I'm just at my heart. I'm a real introvert. Like I don't really want to be around other people, but I enjoy it once I push myself to be around other people.
00:40:17
Speaker
But like I used to think like conventions, like, oh gosh, I could never that sounds like a nightmare to too many people, you know, like all of that. We've been going to so many with dance and, and I'll tell you, those are some great places. to meet people and like really chat with people who get it. If you have dance in your life still, like in your dance teacher, like check out some of the dance teacher conventions and go. You'll meet folks and you'll have conversations and you'll learn new things and you'll feel like
00:40:51
Speaker
you're in that community. And if you're not in dance anymore, like at all, find something else that brings like human beings together. Maybe it is, this is a weird example, but maybe it's like your town's bowling league. I don't know. Maybe there's like something where like human beings come together and it might take some trial and error to like find your people because it doesn't always work out. But be open minded because sometimes I think we can tend to think like if you're not a dancer, you're not gonna get me. But some of my closest friends in the whole world are not dancers.
The Importance of Community
00:41:28
Speaker
I wouldn't have like had the opportunity to have them in my life if I wasn't open to meeting people with different experiences than me.
00:41:36
Speaker
I think that's important. I know that I have made assumptions of people that they're not gonna get me, they're not a dancer, they don't understand. But I think part of that is just being willing to talk to people and like get to know them at least a little bit. And then to be able to choose, okay, these are my people or like these definitely aren't my people. And that takes a little bit of bravery kind of like to put yourself out there and to be vulnerable and to like share your experiences. But some of the most unexpected people that I, never thought I would connect with I have and I've been really happy to do so and and I will say Kristin and I talk a lot in Dance End about stress and how dancers can cope with stress and I mean obviously it's a very stressful career but even now in the world the world is very stressful. There's this really great book by Emily and Amelia Nagoski ah about stress and completing the stress cycle. And they theorized that one of the things we're missing in a stressful situation is community. They kind of talk about back in cave human days, they would go out and have a stressful situation and fight a bear and then come back to the campfire or to the, I don't know, cave human cave.
00:42:52
Speaker
And then part of that was sharing their experience with their community. And there are studies that kind of show that that communication, that community can help regulate our stress in our bodies. So I think that we kind of try to like calm down on our own, but sometimes it's just like coming home and be like, Oh my gosh, this is what happened or like calling a friend and just venting and having that time to get out those emotions. So community can have benefits in many, many different ways.
00:43:29
Speaker
And community can look different too. I think that's important as well. Like you can have the people who know you the best and they might not be in your geographic area. They might be like long distance friendships, but community also can refer to just the people that you wave hello to. Like that's also important to see the same faces, whether that's where you live, whether that's the coffee shop you frequent, whether that's the checkout person at Whole Foods, like whatever it is, it's just like being a friendly person and being out in the world and seeing familiar faces can also give us that same feeling that we're part of something larger than ourselves. This is such a strange thing, but it just reminded me, when I graduated from college,
00:44:14
Speaker
there was a speaker at our college graduation who was graduating from the graduate program. And I don't remember what they were studying, but they talked about their thesis research, which showed that over time, the big place to be in homes was the front porch. Like every home had a front porch and everybody would be on the front porch because that's where you would see everyone. And that's where you would be most social. And then over time, these front porches started going away and then people started creating more spaces in their backyards. The deck became super popular. The like back patio became super popular. And you don't really see people on their front porch anymore. And how that has impacted the health, the resilience, the mental health,
00:45:05
Speaker
of communities in general and of humans, because everyone is sort of like retreating into their own spaces instead of being part of something larger. So put yourself out there. I just moved. Like I said, I am not generally an extrovert. I have to really force myself to be. And true story, like I started walking around my neighborhood, anybody who was out, I just went right up to them, ha, and I probably sounded a little bit, like they were like, Who is this lady? Well, hi, I'm Kristin. This is Mason. This is Maddie. That's my husband, Jonathan. We just moved. And I'm just like, trying because I know, I know that this stuff is important. And I'm like, Okay, I'm just gonna make myself do it. And honestly, I've met a few people, I wave to them when I come in, and it's already feeling different. And like, again, there are different levels of relationships, you don't have to be best friends with everybody, but just
00:46:00
Speaker
Be kind, be friendly, and it can make a big difference in how you feel and your mental health. It's so interesting what you said about the front porches and living in Wisconsin, it's cold a lot. You won't see your neighbors for like six months. It will be like November and we're all kind of like Sia and eight-for-all guys and I always struggle with mental health a little bit more in the winter, which I know a lot of people do. I thought about it in terms of there's less daylight, so I'm not getting outside as much, but not as much in the terms of the community, and I really do miss my community. And then it's like, April every time emerges, and all the kids are a foot taller, and babies are walking, and we're like, oh my gosh, how are you guys? And we just haven't seen each other for months, because we just drive into our garages and close the door and go inside our cozy homes. And so that's definitely motivated me to try to have some more conscious community.
00:46:49
Speaker
over those winter months when it can get a little dark. Yes. Go start a club where you like walk your babies in the mall before it opens. like i I'm totally going to be that that lady. I just know it. like At some point, I'm going to be like, I'm going to get there at 8 AM before the shops open, and me and my walking buddies are going to walk around the mall when it's cold out, and that's how I'm going to get my fix. like We just need FaceTime with people who are not always in our instiller experiences like you need to get outside of your home and yeah outside of your studio home too if that's what you're defining as your home and seeing other human beings and interacting with other humans in the world. And I think it's such perspective too because I know as a young dancer having so many friends who were close to me in my studio and then I had friends at school and it was like
00:47:41
Speaker
I would get so worked up about casting or something not going well in class or whatever it was. Everyone was worked up about that. We're all just in a frenzy almost. And then I see my friends who aren't dancers. Not that they don't get it, but it's like to them that's so outside of their realm of understanding of what's going on. That's not as big of a deal. And it's kind of like, Oh, maybe I am taking this a little too seriously or like when I would move away from home to dance and I would be really hard because I would feel like I was missing my family. And then I'd see my family and be like, okay, this is putting all of those things that I felt of my head to be so big. And they were big to me, like not downplaying that, but seeing family and seeing other friends and being like, oh, there is more to life and having that perspective shift of like, okay, maybe it wasn't the end of the world that I didn't get cast in that part that I wanted. Maybe there's other things.
Mental Health Tools and Support
00:48:27
Speaker
Yeah, and when you're in that, like to your point, when you're in those situations where everyone is stressing out about the same thing, like that's not going to help you be less stressed, like stress, the research shows that stress is contagious. So if you're in that space where everyone is stressed, you're going to be even more stressed. And then if you spend time around people who do not have that same stress response to something that is stressful for you. They can actually help calm you down without even meaning to. Just being around someone who's like nervous system is regulated can help you calm down and so often we don't get that in dance because generally we're all stressing out about the same thing.
00:49:07
Speaker
Yeah, that's very true. Before we wrap up, I would just love to hear from both of you. If you could give aspiring dancers one piece of advice, what would you tell them? One piece. I know. This is kind of it's gonna sound like a negative, but I wish someone had told me this. Stop trying to do what you think other people want you to do. Just do what makes you happy. If I had not tried so hard to please all of my teachers or tried so hard to do exactly what everyone thinks I should have done, I think I would have been a lot happier and I think I would have been and would have found my path a lot quicker. Yeah. What would you say, Kristen? I don't know if I would have really heard it if someone had told me this when I was younger.
00:50:03
Speaker
but hopefully I would have. I think I would have needed to really understand and truly believe that the dark thoughts that I was having and the dark places I was going wasn't a product of me not being able to hack it or not being strong enough. It was just a product of me not having the right tools. And anyone can get the right tools. It just takes practice. just like anyone can learn how to dance. It just takes practice. And if there's anything that dancers are good at, we are motivated. We know how to put in the work, right? Like we work on things. So if you're struggling mentally and you don't understand why, it's just because you don't have the right tools. You haven't found the right tools that work for you.
00:50:55
Speaker
and ask questions, ask try to seek some of the those tools out and all you have to do is practice. That's really what it comes down to. It's just knowledge and then practicing. And then if those tools aren't serving you, just getting new tools and it can help change your life. So many of us just think it has to be like a natural thing. We all struggle and that is the natural thing that we all struggle. You completely have the ability to find tools and to use these tools so that you feel better. And I also want to say before we wrap that sometimes those tools include outside help. If you're in a place where you find that whatever you're doing just isn't working for you, sometimes you need to ask for help.
00:51:45
Speaker
And sometimes that help can come in the form of counseling or therapy or speaking to a mental health professional. Sometimes that help even comes in the form of a prescription if that's what your doctor thinks is best for you. Like you're not on your own. Talk about it. Ask questions. It is not a sign of weakness to struggle and it is not a sign of weakness to receive help. it is actually the strongest thing that any of us can do. Yeah. And just to normalize that, like I have been in and out of therapy for the past decade.
00:52:19
Speaker
I have prescription medication for anxiety. These things are not holding me back from achieving the things I want to achieve and they're actually helping me achieve the things I want to achieve and they're helping me have a happy life. Like you said, as a teen who was really struggling, I didn't know what was wrong with me. You know, I'm wrong in quotes, but I didn't know why I couldn't do some of the things that my peers could do or why things seemed hard for me sometimes and then getting those tools. and having that support like changed everything for me. And so I know that the stigma is still there in some ways, but I think it's starting to go away. And I think the more we call it out, the better it's going to be.
00:52:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for being part of that shift and for speaking about your experience so openly, because I didn't really ever hear these experiences when I was younger. And so I just assumed something like you, something was wrong with me. Yeah. And same, I've been and in a therapy, if I had my therapist, if I had Dr. Don, when I was dancing professionally, I would have been a way better dancer. I think this is something that we don't recognize as much in the dance world as they do in you know, even like Olympic athletes have therapists that work with them, they do peak performance training. As dancers, we don't think we need to train our minds, but training your minds the same way you train your body
00:53:39
Speaker
can help you be a better dancer. It can help you be more focused. It can help you be happier. It can help you be more resilient.
Resources and Community Engagement
00:53:48
Speaker
There are so many things that recognizing the importance of training our brain can do for us. We have some resources for dancers too on our website, Dancen.com, and just keep the conversation going. Thank you, Caitlin, for bringing a spotlight to mental health in the dance community. It's really, really awesome. Of course. And yes, dancers, please, if you are looking for some tools, Dancen is a great resource, a great place to start, Dancen.com, and
00:54:17
Speaker
Where else can we find you? What are the main tools that you have for dancers or educators out there who are looking for something? We're also on Instagram. You can follow us ah if you're on Instagram. If you're young and you're listening, it's not for you yet. But if you are old enough to be on social media, we are at Dance End Official and the link in our bio will take you to all of our resources that you can find online too. You can schedule a meeting with us if you're an educator and you're like, I just have some questions, a free meeting, just hop on. There's a link that will
00:54:49
Speaker
take you to a calendar. We have some free resources as well as paid resources. We have like a five-day dancer mental health challenge that is free if you're a dancer and you just need a place to start. It's a lot of journaling reflection questions and just trying to get you to think about dance and yourself in a different way. We also have a free course for educators 12 months of mental wellness where each month you get a new classroom exercise to try with your dancers. And then we have some certifications for educators, for organization staff, for dance competition judges. We provide workshops for educators and for students. Really, it's just important to us that what we have is useful. So if you are on our website or you are at the link in our bio on Instagram and you don't see what you need, please reach out.
00:55:41
Speaker
because we really do want everyone to feel supported and like they have a place to turn. Amazing. And yeah, check out their website. It's such great resources. I've used them myself and I really stand by all of your work. And thank you so much for this conversation today and for all of your insight. You're both wonderful and I just have loved getting to know you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Caitlin. Ditto. You're a part of our community.
00:56:08
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too. I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Valorina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.