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22: Inside Crop Circles - paranormal encounters in the fields
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In this episode, I speak with an ex crop circle maker who goes by the pseudonym “D.” While many still associate crop circles with extraterrestrials, D argues that humans play a pivotal role in their creation—and that the real mystery begins during the making of these formations.
Over the course of several summers in Wiltshire, a region in the southwest of England long associated with ancient monuments and mysterious phenomena, D helped create dozens of crop circles. What he encountered during those nights in the fields defies easy explanation: flashes of light, floating orbs, strange synchronicities, and unsettling energies that lingered long after the work was done.
We explore the technical and creative process behind crop circle construction and ask: What draws certain people to this work? Why does Wiltshire seem to act as a hotspot for high strangeness? And could the very act of making crop circles be a form of contact with something beyond ourselves?
D’s perspective challenges the tidy divide between hoax and mystery, man-made and paranormal. Whether you’re a skeptic or a believer, this conversation invites you to rethink the nature of the phenomenon.
More on D’s work
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:05
Speaker
Thank you.
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to European UFOs. My name is Sebastian and if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on chosen platform. Sharing and liking really help the algorithm and are greatly appreciated.
00:00:28
Speaker
If you'd like to support the show and keep it ad-free, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com. The link is in the description.
The Mystery of Crop Circles
00:00:38
Speaker
In this episode, we're entering the world of crop circles, but not in the way you might expect.
00:00:44
Speaker
We often associate these formations with extraterrestrial visitors, mysterious lights in the sky, or elaborate hoaxes. But what if reality is even stranger?
00:00:56
Speaker
My guest today is Dee, an ex-crop circle maker who wishes to remain anonymous due to the legal implications of making crop circles on private land. His perspective is both provocative and refreshing.
00:01:10
Speaker
Dee insists that whilst humans make the majority of these formations, the process of creating them often triggers inexplicable paranormal events. In fact, he argues that the human element is not a flaw in the mystery, it's the key to understanding it.
00:01:28
Speaker
Dee shares his journey from sceptical researcher to hands-on participant in the Crops Circle phenomenon. Along the way, he encountered flashes of light, floating orbs, strange synchronicities and encounters that felt inexplicably intense, even menacing.
00:01:46
Speaker
He takes us inside the world of nighttime circle making, explains the techniques used, and explores why so many of these formations appear in the mystical landscape of Weltshire, a county in the southwest of England.
Paranormal Events and Human Consciousness
00:02:02
Speaker
Are crop circles a form of contact initiated through human consciousness? Could our ancestors' sacred stone circles and today's crop formations be part of the same ancient dialogue?
00:02:14
Speaker
And what happens when the phenomenon reveals a more unsettling side? Join us as we delve into the curious intersection of human creativity and unexplained phenomena at the heart of the crop circle mystery.
00:02:32
Speaker
Good morning, D. Lovely to have you on the show. hurry are you doing today? um I'm doing fine, Sebastian. It's a pleasure to be here, my friend. Lovely. So today we are going to talk about crop circles, about which you have a very personal tale to tell, and also one that bears great relevance to to you know the fields of paranormal and UAP research. So before we delve into that, could you tell us how you got interested in cropmer and crop circle making and how you actually went went about doing it in the end?
Evolution of Crop Circle Designs
00:03:11
Speaker
um I've got a deep-seated interest in the paranormal and especially ufology and I've had it since I was a child and when I saw Close Encounters at the age of about 11 at the cinema it had a profound effect on me in that i as a kid i I kind of even thought it was a documentary it was kind of Latently tapping into this part of my psyche part of the collective consciousness where I thought well I'm remembering this rather than seeing it for the first time It's a very profound effect So I became deeply entrenched in ufology and in those days I was mainly reading ah John Keel, Jacques Vallée who I think is the godfather of ufology personally Jenny Randalls, um ah John Spencer, a lot of the 70s and and writers
00:03:58
Speaker
and sixty s writes says um But every year I used to religiously um get the UFO casebook and it would be photographs and reports of sightings that year.
00:04:09
Speaker
ah Then we started to see in the UFO casebooks, they started to print pictures of crop circles. And in those days, um Sebastian, they were very basic. they were that They were like cookie cutter events. They were single circles that looked like birthed UFOs that pressed into the corn.
00:04:29
Speaker
um So they that they were either single circles or they had four satellite circles maybe around the edges that made them look like the old B movie, the day the earth stood still craft with the tripods.
00:04:42
Speaker
And they and that they their precedents were the um Australian 70s tully nest, which were done in grass. But because these crop circles were done in crop, they were far more pronounced because the crop was like one or two feet high.
00:04:56
Speaker
So I became very interested, thinking, what's that? And they were presented as ah birth flying saucers that had landed and flown off again.
00:05:07
Speaker
And then in 1990, we had the first pictogram. which which you'll probably know from the Led Zeppelin cover. um And that was a different affair entirely. That was two circles connected by a bar with like forks coming up coming off a bit, very very sort of frilly.
00:05:26
Speaker
And at that point, because that doesn't look like a a ufo the...
Unexplained Phenomena and Crop Circle Creation
00:05:30
Speaker
the um The polemic between the birth UFOs and you know and these patterns should have been obliterated straight away. So no no UFO looks like that.
00:05:40
Speaker
But what happened was the idea of of of UFOs and crop circles became so ingrained in the public psyche that people said, oh, well, that's not a landed UFO.
00:05:51
Speaker
That's a message from our space brothers, which I always thought was very clunky, that that you know that transition. So anyway, I became very interested. 10 years, I travelled to Wiltshire from my home in London, and I i um used the crop circle connector to ah plot where the circles would be.
00:06:11
Speaker
And if there was 15, I'd do all 15 in a day. I'd just plan my route. And I did that for many years. and i i but But I was... Still, none the wiser. I thought it was, the literature told us it was NLHI, it was ET based, or it was Gaia, or it was time travellers. I had no idea. I was just interested in watching the phenomenon.
00:06:34
Speaker
Then I decided to spend an entire summer down there because I became quite passionate. You could say obsessed. um And then I started to hear his stories from crop circle makers speaking of UAPs, UFOs, time distortions, synchronicities, dream-driven events, massive coincidences that seem to be engineered, and all this sort of stuff.
00:07:06
Speaker
And I thought it was all myth-making because I didn't like human crop circle makers. I thought that they were muddy in the waters, and I thought the mystery was deep enough already without these...
00:07:18
Speaker
hope hoax, you know, without these pranksters coming in and just laughing at us. I thought it was just, the mystery was deep enough and I always thought that the analogy of the magician with the um balls under the cups was, and then these guys come along and add another ten cups, it's already bad, and that is it's already mysterious enough.
00:07:37
Speaker
um But, I held human crop circle makers in the same disdain as some of your listeners will will hold me.
00:07:49
Speaker
okay Because I thought, you're just showing off. You're doing it for a laugh. You're just ego-driven. you know and i really hated them. But I started to listen to their stories.
00:08:01
Speaker
And a lot of them seemed to be um very attuned to um the vibes of the area. And they said that what they were doing was like an amplification of the work of our forebears with the stone circles, but they were doing it in crop instead.
00:08:19
Speaker
And so they seemed to be driven to do it. They seemed to be impelled to do it, like Roynery in Close Encounters. They didn't know why. and they but And they didn't think that they were special or anointed or chosen ones. They just thought that because they were ah aligned and sympathetic to the phenomena, that they were attracting it.
00:08:40
Speaker
So long story short, one day a crop circle maker said to me, We've seen you all season. We know that you you've been overheard saying that you're not concerned about how the circles got there. You're more concerned about the events surrounding them.
00:08:56
Speaker
Would you like to come out and help? And I went, absolutely. Yes. I said, when? He says, tonight. He said, we've got and we've got a crop circle. We didn't finish it last night.
00:09:08
Speaker
We've got to go back and finish it. So went out and we did it and we finished this crop circle and unfortunately, Sebastian, nothing happened at all.
00:09:19
Speaker
And um I thought, okay, these people are just BS. It's just absolute rubbish. It's all myth-making. This is absolutely a complete waste of my time.
00:09:31
Speaker
It's a good circle, but these are hoaxes, you know. And I was really disappointed. But then, when we finished doing the crop circle, at the exact point that we finished it, i looked to I looked at the perimeter line at the far edge of the circle, and I saw a single flash come on. It was like a magnesium flash. It was a little bit like when you used to take Polaroid pictures in the bowl.
00:09:58
Speaker
And this was, it was twilight. It was kind of like sort 310, so you had that... It wasn't that it was night and it wasn't day. um And this flash went off. And and i said I said to the team leader, I said, oh, God, that means somebody somebody's been taking photographs of this.
00:10:15
Speaker
I'm in trouble now because I've got a respectable job. This is illegal to do crop circle making. We've been caught. Oh, God. And he went, no, no, it's OK. And he was quite blasé. And then this light turned into six lights.
00:10:29
Speaker
Then it turned into a dozen lights. And then it turned into 30 lights. And it sprinkled itself around the edge of the circle. So that it encircled us. It hemmed us in.
00:10:41
Speaker
And I've written it in my substack as being the biggest necklace in the world. It was glistening. And it was just... absolutely beautiful and I said what what the hell is that and our team leader looked at look skywards and he said okay you lot we finished now you can go and do your work now what that means is that when we make a crop circle, it's ours for as long as we make it.
00:11:08
Speaker
And then the second we leave the field, it doesn't belong to us anymore. And i said I said to him, but who are you talking to? He said, look, what you're seeing now is just like a little round of applause. It's them telling us that this crop circle is finished.
00:11:24
Speaker
Don't do anything more to it because you'll spoil it. And just just leave, go. And here here's our little round of applause for you. And I said, Who are you talking to?
00:11:35
Speaker
And he said, that lot upstairs. And then he said, okay, we're going now. Goodbye. And when he said that, this these lights, these 30-odd lights, they just went off.
00:11:47
Speaker
And at that point, I thought, what the
Techniques and Creativity in Crop Circle Making
00:11:51
Speaker
hell is going on? Because he was so blasé about it. He was so matter-of-fact. He said, if you keep doing this, Dee, you're going to see this all the time.
00:12:01
Speaker
And this is part and parcel of what we do. So that was my first experience. So and I suppose after that, you were were pretty much hooked. I mean, it sounds like an extraordinary experience. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. I was hooked.
00:12:16
Speaker
And the fact that these UAPs, that's what I've now defined them as, because these UAPs were being seen at waist height, I'd never seen anything in the literature where ah where where a UAP was that near to the ground.
00:12:31
Speaker
um And the second time I went out, um the second that we started, we saw up a single pink UAP click above us when we did the first stomp.
00:12:42
Speaker
And it was there for the duration. And as soon as we finished, it clicked off again. It felt like a babysitter. You know, it felt like it was minding us. And I thought when I saw the light, I thought it was military because we have a proliferation of military bases here.
00:12:57
Speaker
um But there was no rotor blades and there was no sound. ah And so strange things don't happen every time. But I was pulled to it to see that.
00:13:09
Speaker
I was pulled to it for the experiences rather than what the crop circle looked like at the end of people going into afters. It was the creation process. that interested me.
00:13:22
Speaker
Actually, um could we focus a bit on the creation process? Because, um you know, some of my listeners will undoubtedly argue that, oh well, some of these crop circles are so complex, no way a human being could ever make them.
00:13:38
Speaker
So what would you respond to that? There's a myriad of answers to that. That explanation, sorry, that that argument is normally intertwined with people were saying these things are formed in seconds overnight.
00:13:54
Speaker
That is absolute rubbish. Okay. um that that That myth has been... ah really um reinforced by the um Oliver's Castle orbs crop circle for you know from from, yeah, exactly.
00:14:08
Speaker
um That is a very dubious video, my friend. There are a lot of unanswered questions about that video. The person that made it is either called John Mabee or John Wavy, depending on where you look on IMDb.
00:14:20
Speaker
hes He's down on Iron Baby as a crop circle hoaxer. And um he ran or was involved in the CGI studio in Bristol. Okay, so you do the maths.
00:14:33
Speaker
Okay. um And also people argue, well, you know, the technology wasn't around for that CGI to be that good when he made it. Two words, my friend, Jurassic Park.
00:14:45
Speaker
um um So that's the that's the first thing I'd say. People say, well, it's done in seconds. They're not done in seconds. We've got a... a window, you'd be surprised how early we start because when I first started, ah you know the guy said to me, come out tonight, and I thought he'd mean midnight.
00:15:02
Speaker
You start at 10 p.m., okay? And you've got a five-hour window, and in answer to your question, we've got this trope because of Doug and Dave, we've got this trope of, oh, it's just two old drunk blokes walking home from the pub.
00:15:17
Speaker
It's not. It's teams of experienced people And we've got from September until March to do our planning because the crop circle season is only those few months between March and September.
00:15:32
Speaker
And um you just go out and if you've got 15 people in a team, you'll get a complicated one down in three and a half, four and a half, five hours, or you'll get every simple one down in one hour or one and a half hours.
00:15:49
Speaker
And um because of the image of ropes and boards, you've just got this clunky image of big planks of wood. We don't use big planks of wood. We'll use a maybe a metre board, but we'll have half-metre boards. We'll have square boards for, like, the fiddly bits, okay? um We used markers.
00:16:08
Speaker
They'd normally be ah poles in the ground. Sometimes i used to use paper plates. As long as you know where you are, and as long as everybody in the team knows what they're doing, um You've just got to scale it up from paper, Sebastian. So if you're using a square and compass on paper and it's an inch on paper, it's a few feet in the field. It's just scaled up.
00:16:30
Speaker
So what you're making doesn't make much sense to you as it's going down. But you think, well, I've been allocated this section as long as this section is done properly. that part of the jigsaw puzzle will be fine when we when we look at the whole thing.
00:16:45
Speaker
So that's my argument. And the other thing I would say to you is that a lot of the people that have that argument are very much of the mindset of saying, well, we aremenal we are interdimensional creatures. We are incredible people.
00:17:00
Speaker
The human being is a fantastic species. We're being suppressed by the powers that be so that we don't know how you know how skilled we are. And yet, We can't flatten cord into pretty patterns.
00:17:13
Speaker
we Human beings are incredible. And if they sit if if you set your mind to it, you can do it. That's my argument back. Oh, absolutely. like I concur with that. I think, um you know, in a lot of these arguments, humans are given, you know, enough credit for exactly what for what for what they can actually do.
00:17:32
Speaker
and so a lot of this happens during night. Do you guys work with night vision goggles or is it torturous or how does that work? And how do you remain undiscovered because it's farmland, I suppose? Again, um this might the The torches thing makes me laugh so much when I read these on the forums. Of course we don't use torches.
00:17:53
Speaker
In Wiltshire, as you know, because you've been there, even a lit cigarette, you'll see that front. Exactly. It's it's just ridiculous that we'd use torches. And I've used night vision, but I didn't need it.
00:18:07
Speaker
ah Because what happens is once you're in the field, even if it's pitch black, you'd be amazed how quickly your eyes become ah become accustomed to the dark. It takes about 15 to 20 minutes, but in that 15 to 20 minutes, you're walking into the field anyway, and you're using the tram lines so that the but you know our footsteps aren't seen going into the actual crop. um But once the construction line is down, Sebastian, once once it's flattened, that piece of the corn looks darker than the rest.
00:18:41
Speaker
So you can see where you are um and it's easier than you think. it's It it becomes so that it's not it becomes like a greyish light to you in the end once you've been in the field for about 20 minutes.
00:18:57
Speaker
see that's the thing about um this you you know making crop circles i think you really need the experience and then you're actually only qualified to you know have an informed opinion about it because you know this is
Wiltshire and Magical Experiences
00:19:10
Speaker
something i would have never thought of that you know your eyes adapt that quickly and that you can now then actually just go about doing it in the field so that's it's very valuable no it is it is and um when it I always compare being a crop circle maker to being in a rock and roll band because if you're in a rock and roll band, ah you can rehearse in your shed for six weeks and make all the mistakes and you can do your first gig when you're ready.
00:19:40
Speaker
If you're a crop circle maker, you don't have that you don't have that luxury. um your first efforts are going to be bad, okay, but they're going to be there for the world to see because there's no rehearsal room. You're using open fields.
00:19:53
Speaker
So when people laugh at crop circles and say, oh, that one's man-made, it's rubbish, that same team is the same team that you'll be then marvelling at in two years' time when they're great and saying, oh, that can't be man-made, you know?
00:20:09
Speaker
Yeah. um Before we focus on the ah paranormal um yep stuff that's that's happening around the creation process, could you take us to Wiltshire and tell our listeners from overseas what that area is like and why it plays such a focal role in all of this?
00:20:29
Speaker
Well, what I'm doing is I'm... collating my accounts and I'm speaking to other crop circle makers that I know personally or that I've had vouched for me and when I speak to um Italian crop circle makers and people overseas um and even people that are making crop circles but for further up north in England nobody is reporting the strangeness that I'm seeing in Wiltshire.
00:20:57
Speaker
ah okay we i'm um and I'm only getting these high strangeness reports in Wiltshire. Now, it's it's a magical area. And the thing that you've got to remember, Sebastian, is that the UAPs and the stuff that we're seeing in the fields during the creation process and after the creation process,
00:21:14
Speaker
ah you don't actually need crop circles to see that stuff. The locals here have been seeing this stuff for hundreds of years and generations, but they didn't call them UAPs. They called them fairy lights, or they called them nature spirits. It's the cultural tracking thing that Jacques Veille talks about.
00:21:32
Speaker
um So it's a very magical area anyway. We've got a high concentration of ley lines. We've got a high concentration of... um um site We've got Chirmalai, we've got Long Barrows, we've got Henges, we've got Avery, we've got Stonehenge. it's it's This place is steeped in pagan history and and and it's a place which is steeped in interest for archaeologists.
00:21:59
Speaker
And um we think that when we make the corrupt circles, we're just basically... um rebooting what our forebears did with the stone circles it's an extremely magical area and the locals don't bat an eyelid when strange stuff happens down here because to them this is just de riga you know the farmers they see strange stuff just it's just everyday life for them ah It's very interesting that you that there might be a connection between you know building um you know these monuments, as it were, in crop as opposed to stone. I think that's ah that's a very interesting connection there.
00:22:39
Speaker
yeah that that's that Yeah, that's what we think we're doing, yeah. Yeah. So um you already mentioned the um this bead light-shaped phenomenon consisting of 30 orb-like things that that surrounded the crop circle.
00:22:54
Speaker
but And that got you really, really hooked into the into making crop circles. What other weird stuff ah happened over the years? And for how long have you been doing crop circles?
00:23:06
Speaker
um Well, I did them for... um I made about 25 from memory. um A lot of... We so we saw UAPs as a matter of course, okay? There was... You would see it so often that I became as blasé as my team leader was in that first one, just become conditioned to it.
00:23:27
Speaker
um So as but as well as the UAPs, there's a very profound level to it because...
00:23:38
Speaker
It's stuff that you can't take photographs of, Sebastian. It's dream-driven. It's synchronicity-driven. We think that because we're reliant on the phenomenon, it kind of attracts us in the same way that if you're deeply into ufology, you're more likely to see UFO.
00:23:53
Speaker
We think that there's some interplay and there's some connection. with with with another consciousness and we don't know if it's the collective human consciousness which Sheldrake talks about with the species field or whether there is an interaction within something else which is involved and I don't want to say channeling but there's definitely something going on ah okay now I'll give you an example the first time that I went out ah um and ran a team myself um which was about six circles in.
00:24:27
Speaker
Before I did that I was getting recurring dreams. It was always the same dream. I was in a part of Wiltshire that I didn't know and there were two fields and I was swooping over them like an out-of-body experience and there were two fields and in each field was a crutch circle which was completely different the other and this dream would not go away and in the dream next to me was always this school friend that I went to school with that I had no connection with all I've not thought of him for 30 years and I'd wake up thinking why the hell is this guy in my dream I've lost touch with him
00:25:06
Speaker
Anyway, this dream was going on and on and on and one day I found myself in Wiltshire and I took a wrong turn. Now wrong turn in this subject doesn't mean what it does in normal everyday life because accidents happen mistakes happen and and they all seem to be engineered towards other things.
00:25:28
Speaker
So I took this wrong turn inverted commas and And I find myself exactly in the arena that i dreamt about. And I thought, this is exactly what I dreamt. This is in this is so strange.
00:25:41
Speaker
And then I looked at the road name that I'd driven down by mistake, inverted commas. And the name of the road was the same road that was the same name that my school friend lived in when I used to go around his house 30 years ago. Wow.
00:25:55
Speaker
And and so I thought, come on, come on. that That's not a coincidence. So i knew that i had to do a crop circle, and but couldn't decide which one to do of those two in my dream.
00:26:09
Speaker
So I drew them both out. I spoke to my partner. I spoke to my team. i had a team of four. Two guys were from Holland. um So I had a team of four, and I said, look, we can't do that we can't do both. We haven't got time.
00:26:24
Speaker
So they didn't know which one to do. So in the end, I just Luke Skywalker'd it and just write, I'm going to go in the field. I'll just empty i'll just let it flow through. And i'll wherever the first stop mark is, that's what we'll do.
00:26:37
Speaker
So we got one of the circles down. And it was good. um And the next morning, I got a call from my partner in London. And she said to me, God, you were busy last night. I said, well, yeah, we got a circle down.
00:26:48
Speaker
And she says, no, you got them both down. I said, no, we didn't. And she goes, yes, you did. She said, it's online. Have a look. And I looked online on the crop circle connector site on an aerial view.
00:26:59
Speaker
And um from an aerial view, there there was a big hill, which which which was, um there was a big hill between these two fields. But aerially, it just looked like a stripe, Sebastian.
00:27:10
Speaker
Okay. But in... field number one was my first crop circle and in field number two was the other crop circle as it had appeared in my dream and we didn't know about that team and that team didn't know about us and that's when you think this isn't coincidence there's something going on you know so there's a lot there's a lot of events like that that happen that you can't actually photograph but that's when you think there's some consciousness at play here Absolutely. And um with these synchronicities, it's often very um difficult to pinpoint or specify their meaning because, you know, it's um often they seem somewhat unrelated to the actual phenomenon. No, it it did it it didn't really do in this, in your case, in the example you just gave.
00:28:00
Speaker
But um i um I spoke to some UAP experiences, and um they also go through, you know, lots of weird synchronicities, which often don't bear any apparent connection to the phenomenon itself. So it's it's kind of interesting, you know, like seeing double digits that reoccur all the time,
Shared Consciousness and Synchronization
00:28:23
Speaker
you know. What do you mean by that?
00:28:25
Speaker
What you mean by double digits? ah So for instance, if if you look at a digital clock and you see 23 or let's say 11, 11 or 12, 12, you know, this happens a lot, you know, these, these sorts of things. So there you always say certain symmetrical arrangements, either in geometrics or in numbers.
00:28:48
Speaker
That's, that's what often happens. Um, and um but but they don't bear any obvious connection to the uap phenomenon as such so it's interesting i know exactly what you're talking about and i've got an account in my subset where that's exactly happened and the person hasn't made the connection until the crop circle was made and then they go hold on that's directly relevant and but they didn't see the connection at the time so yeah that's very interesting yeah where Where do you usually get your ideas from when you make a crop circle? Is a lot of it just intuitive, dream-based, or do you go through a rather rational process of coming up with these rather complex designs?
00:29:30
Speaker
You think you're going through a rational process, and then you'll find out afterwards that a particular crop circle – well, this is what happens a lot. You go to make a crop circle and you'll find that somebody else, another team has made pretty much the exact same thing.
00:29:45
Speaker
in Not perhaps in that same field, but within a very, very close radius. And we used to knock each other. Before before I was like, um how can I put it?
00:29:57
Speaker
When I was still sceptical, when I thought, when I wasn't sure if something was going on. wait the crop circle teams would say to each other, where did you need that design from? We were going to do that. And it's the same thing.
00:30:09
Speaker
And then if you look if you look historically, season on season, you'll see the same... shapes appear at the same um tags if you like like Banksy there's certain stripes or certain crescents or spikes will appear and everyone's doing them but no one no one knows who did it first so the answer to your question is We think that it's, oh, okay, we've got a great design there, and then you and then something else happens after creation where you go, well, I've seen that somewhere else.
00:30:43
Speaker
It's like as if it, the phenomena, is saying, well, if I actually... put this idea in four of your heads, one of you would do it. So it would go down, or two or three of you would do it.
00:30:55
Speaker
But sometimes what happens is you'll make a mistake on a crop circle in the creation process, and then you have to replicate the mistake to make it look as if it was deliberate. And the beauty is that you don't you, the audience, don't know what it was supposed to be in the first place. So if we have to we have to you know modify it, then so be it.
00:31:14
Speaker
And then we'll find out that that mistake is of a is the most important part of the circle because it has a direct significance to the date that we placed it and the place that and and and the field that we placed it in.
00:31:28
Speaker
So we do think how much of this is us and how much of this is us just thinking that it's us, you know? Yeah. And within the team is coming up with a design, usually um ah collective process or is it that the team leader, someone else within the team comes up with a design and then you just go about doing it?
00:31:51
Speaker
When I did my first... I worked for and with one of the best crop swamakers in the business. and the Business is a misnomer because numbers none of us are getting paid. But he used to just come up with these designs. I mean, he used to copy these easy to come up, we used to go to his place and then he'd have a diagram and he'd show us what we were doing.
00:32:08
Speaker
And I would say to him, T, where did you get this from? And I think somebody else was giving it to him. So I think somebody else was having the ideas but didn't have the... skill to do it um so it but generally no it's not a collective process one of us will think of it like because if it's collective then it's going to be a hot pot of different ideas isn't it it's generally one person or one person would say i've got a choice of two or three here guys which do you like and we can do the other one next week or
00:32:41
Speaker
And um would you say that
Motivations Behind Crop Circle Making
00:32:43
Speaker
there's any... I mean, you already mentioned that, you know, neither you nor your ex-fellow crop circle makers were anointed or had any special, you know, the features that would make you stand out. But is there anything... i mean, I think you probably need to be a certain type of individual with a at least pre-existing interests in the, you know, paranormal to engage in crop circle making. So is there anything...
00:33:07
Speaker
we could use to characterize this group of crop circle makers. I mean, it's not your average person, is it? ah Okay. Well, the, You've touched on something deep there because my definition of a hoaxed circle is different to the general public's definition.
00:33:23
Speaker
My definition of ah of a hoaxed circle is one that is done from ego or it's done as so as art, which is fine. Art is fine. Nothing wrong with that at all.
00:33:34
Speaker
Or it's done to deceive people or it's done a... A commercial enterprise, somebody's been paid to put it in and in the field because it's going to be on a television commercial.
00:33:46
Speaker
That, to me, is a hoaxed circle. What we think is that... um Those of us that are kind of impelled to do this, those of us that are like pulls to do this, um all have um like ah a reverence towards the land here.
00:34:04
Speaker
and We just see that what we're doing is like sort of jump-starting this work of our forebears. But we do have... but all of us seem to have an interest, a pre-existing interest in the paranormal.
00:34:19
Speaker
And a lot of us don't know, because i I certainly don't know where my interest came from, Sebastian. It was there from birth. I've always had it. But we've all we've all got this... respect towards it and we've got ah especially a respect towards the area that we're creating in because as I said to you when I speak to foreign crop silker makers and people elsewhere in England the reports dissipate i the further you get from here the fewer stuck but the fewer reports i get and I can't use any of the reports that they're giving me because they're just funny stuff like the car breaking down there's there's nothing high strange it's only around here that's happening
00:34:59
Speaker
What happens if you have a team member who does it only for ego reasons? what What are the implications of that? I can i told this i told this um account ah last night and on a podcast that I did.
00:35:13
Speaker
we ah The closest I can get to it is that we did a crop circle right in crop circle HQ. It was one of the prime sites. And we had a couple of girls tagging along with us.
00:35:26
Speaker
it was i think It was a massive team. I think we had about 12 people in the team. And it was a big crop circle. I think we started about half past 10.
00:35:37
Speaker
And we had to fight to get it done. The light was coming up as we were finishing. But anyway, we had these two girls. And I wasn't happy with them coming out. I thought they were journalists.
00:35:50
Speaker
but I just, something was off about them, okay? And they just were going, oh, we just want to see the spooky stuff. We want to see the stuff that we've heard about, you know? And so we took them out, and... um
00:36:05
Speaker
If I was to say to you, would you like to go and make a crop circle with me? You'd probably say, yes, that'd be great. You'd be very bored after 10 minutes because it's just at the end of the day, yeah a dozen people minning around stamping on boards or measuring stuff out, you know, with tape measures.
00:36:21
Speaker
um So by two o'clock, these girls were really bored. Okay. And one of them said, oh, this is rubbish. Where's the spooky stuff?
00:36:33
Speaker
And the second that she said it, behind her, um about 100 foot up, there was this massive um corkscrew just materialised in the air.
00:36:49
Speaker
So it wasn't conventional UAP. It was a corkscrew and it was turquoise. um And it was as big as a juggernaut. and it caught screwed into which spiraled down behind the bridge and it was over in two seconds and this collective whoa went up from the team and we all stuck what we don't we've all seen it every one of us has seen it and we went whoa and she went what what what and she was the only one that hadn't seen it she had her back to it it was like strategically done so that she was the only person that didn't have it in her eye line
00:37:23
Speaker
And our team leader, who was the same guy with the magnesium flare, he said, that's what happens when you treat it as a magic act. Okay, it's not here to do party tricks for you.
00:37:34
Speaker
Okay, so that's one example. But I've got others. but Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does. Apparently it does have a certain sense of humor. you know, that's phenomenon. i listen I'll tell you something. That's really interesting because i I just I had an account that I put in yesterday, which I thought was really funny, where a crop circle maker before he became a believer, but so when he was a believer that they that they weren't done by people.
00:38:00
Speaker
He was at his home in Gloucester and he got a compulsion at one o'clock in the morning. You have to go to your beloved wheelchair. You have to go. ah And he went, yeah, I'll go tomorrow. No, you will go now.
00:38:13
Speaker
Okay. And he basically just, had to sort of acquiesce and he cut down he came down and he planned to sleep in his normal little hidey hole that he had and he had he had his sat-nav on and he got to his hidey hole and the sat-nav said make a U-turn immediately and he had he he had his Bluetooth on and So he thought that maybe the road was flooded further down or tree had fallen down.
00:38:42
Speaker
So he said, OK, so it's making you turn. And then he drove for about a mile. he said, you ever reached your destination? And he went, well, no, bloody haven't. So he thought that the sat nav had been malfunctioned.
00:38:55
Speaker
So he rebooted it, programmed it again, set off again. And he went to the other end of the of the road he was going to go to, thinking and that he'd avoid the blockage, and turn around, make a U-turn, and then drive took him back to this same place.
00:39:10
Speaker
And it happened six times. And in the end, he he was tired. It was like three o'clock in the morning. He just turned the bloody thing off and said, right, I'm just going to take a chance and go to my normal place.
00:39:21
Speaker
Went to his normal place. Everything was fine. There was nothing wrong. His phone was rattling on his on this dashboard the next day at 8am from somebody saying there's a new circle.
00:39:35
Speaker
And I don't need to tell you the rest. It was exactly it was exactly where this sat-nav was taking it to me. And I thought that it was really funny. But if he'd have actually got out of his car and walked ah just pigeon steps, he'd have seen the circle makers at work.
00:39:51
Speaker
And we we both thought it was really funny that potentially ah non-human intelligence was steering towards a solution where we know that they were man-made. We thought that was really funny. And there was like this little sense of humor, mischief, cosmic joker element to it, you know.
00:40:09
Speaker
like Exactly. No, doubt that's that's a very nice little story. yeah And and has is is there anything um malicious about um you know about the phenomenon? Have you encountered anything where you would say, oh, this wasn't a particularly nice experience? Or has anything personally followed you home? This is also something you sometimes hear with the UAP phenomenon that... um You know, you have poltergeist-like activity following you home and molesting you for a certain period of time.
00:40:41
Speaker
Yeah, I've had exactly that. I didn't know that that was common. um I had two things happen to me. i i made I won't go into detail, but I made a crop circle out of ego to impress somebody, and i had it it came home.
00:40:58
Speaker
And I had strange stuff happening at home, which I don't go into because i don't like to attract you by talking about it. um But, yeah, and then I had a situation where I went to a crop circle, which I'd been part of,
00:41:13
Speaker
And it was a glorious sunny day in Wiltshire and it was beautiful. And if if it wasn't for my car being parked in the next field,
00:41:25
Speaker
It could have been the fifth century. there was It was like my car was the only thing which stood out as being 21st century. It was beautiful. But as I walked towards this crop circle, um because i I had this arrogance that you have on a sunny day where nothing gothic or bad could happen.
00:41:44
Speaker
yeah know And i just i just addressed it. And i've and I just ah just said, okay, in my mind, I said, okay, once you take us out as is the foot soldiers and the pawns, what who are you?
00:41:57
Speaker
That's what I said to like the ah master builders. And the second that I said it, I had this overbearing feeling, like when people get um abducted and they say that when they speak to the greys and they say to the greys, who are you? The greys, don like, the grays lets say, you're you're so insignificant to even ask.
00:42:15
Speaker
They're so angry at being asked. And I had that same feeling. So it was this horrible, terrible, foreboding feeling. And as I walked towards the circle, the feeling was, what, do you really think you're coming in here?
00:42:29
Speaker
And the further I got to it, it was terrible. And at one point, I felt as if I'd actually been struck on the head. And I put it down to to sunstroke or nausea. And then I walked out of the circle and it dissipated the further I got out.
00:42:44
Speaker
And then i got out i got to the end of the Scropp Circle. I got back in my car and I thought, don't be in, Eddie. It's a sunny day. What can happen? This is just in your imagination. And I got back out. I went back in and it happened. It was like, oh, you're back, are you?
00:42:57
Speaker
And it was it was worse than before. So that was a real... And I didn't have the courage to walk into it. It was it was intense. And it did feel malevolent.
00:43:09
Speaker
So, yeah. I think it's very important to highlight that not everything about whatever phenomenon you might be dealing with is positive. You know, I think this is a lot lot this is often the sentiment you get in, you know, either the, and oh, they're all lovely ah space brothers ah line of line of reasoning or kind of in the more new agey ah type of environment. But I think it's, um as you said, it's important to have a balanced view. Yeah, it is. And I know other circle makers that have done something maybe for the wrong reasons through ego or whatever, or they put something in the field.
00:43:46
Speaker
Sometimes I know of one event where somebody put something in the field and it was quite a, um, ill innocent design but a newbie a new recruit said oh can i add something to this and the addition turned it into something like a scorpion's tail it was just this tiny addition altered the complete aesthetics of the circle and when it went online people were saying well that's got negative vibrations or it and and he had really bad luck and so did the rest of the team it was it it was as if
00:44:18
Speaker
we got the bad luck as well, or they got the bad luck because they let him do it. So, yeah. Yeah. um Perhaps to um just, just by, by way of coming to a conclusion, um,
00:44:33
Speaker
what one One thing I've been thinking about whilst we were talking is, and so are humans, in your opinion, absolutely essential to crop circles?
Human Involvement vs. Other Intelligences
00:44:43
Speaker
Or do you think um there are some crop circles that are made by humans, then there are some that are made by NHI or whatever you want to call it itself? what What's your opinion on that?
00:44:55
Speaker
My opinion is that um the crop circles,
00:44:59
Speaker
The circles that started the phenomenon, the the single cookie cutter events, I think a lot of those are the real thing because sometimes the corn was bent like a few inches up. You can't do that with boards. It looked like it was swirled, looked like it had been drilled gently from above.
00:45:16
Speaker
um But as far as the geometric patterns... um It took me 10, 15 years to find out the truth, but because I've now seen how they're created, I'm not good enough to do some of the brilliant ones, but I can see how they were done because I've worked with the people involved, and you can see.
00:45:39
Speaker
um So I'd like to... The thing with this whole this whole subject is you've got to be prepared to have your mind changed at any point. And the second that I found out that humans were involved, I was very, very disillusioned. I was very angry. I thought, I've wasted 10 years of my life on this.
00:45:58
Speaker
But then I thought, oh, hold on. The second that you put humans in, if you're brave enough to put humans into this, it it it it makes the birth UFO, you know, argument seem actually boring. Once you win once you actually include the human beings into the...
00:46:15
Speaker
into the equation, the mystery is 100 times bigger than you than you originally thought. And I'm, after many years of study with ufology, I'm going really down the path of Jacques Vallée and a lot of the more seasoned ufologists that say this is not a nuts and bolts phenomenon.
00:46:34
Speaker
It's not ET. It's not outer space. It's something far, far closer, which probably coexists with us on a different dimension, if you like. um and and And that's where we are. Yeah, and I think, you know, the same holds true for ufology proper. You have to bring humans into the equation. You know, 95% of the evidence we have is anecdotal based on personal human experiences.
00:47:04
Speaker
So and unless we take these into account and develop proper ways of actually studying them, you know very little progress can be made in in this field. So I think what what you um presented today makes a really valuable contribution ah contribution to the topic overall, you know namely this this idea that you really have to bring humans back into the equation.
00:47:30
Speaker
and ah the the reason another reason why it is is because but those single circles were so basic but they were beautiful Sebastian but they were so basic it's almost as if when you listen to um other other reports of like seances and spiritualists when the spirit comes through or within Ouija boards when the spirit comes through it always says the exertion of putting ah pushing through that barrier has exhausted it and it doesn't stay for very long. The messages are very garbled.
00:48:00
Speaker
It's almost as if with the crop circles, those early events were just the phenomenon, just expending enough energy that they can, and then it's just a single circle.
00:48:12
Speaker
But it's almost like it was a recruitment drive. So it was thrown down the gauntlet for the humans to say, well, I can do better than that. And then it then comes in and uses us as the you know the the pawns to do it.
00:48:27
Speaker
if that makes sense. Yeah, no, no, it really does. um So thanks a lot,
Conclusion and Future Projects
00:48:32
Speaker
Dee. You've been very generous with your time. How can people find find you and what are you currently working on? I take it a book as in in the making or?
00:48:43
Speaker
It is, but i've I've been working on this for but for some years. And ah because when I interviewed the crop circle makers, a lot of the accounts are exactly the same. like I can only put in one in 10.
00:48:55
Speaker
ah So in the meantime, I've got a sub stack, which is it can't be people dot sub stack dot com. And the reason why I call it it can't be people was when I walked into my first crop circle.
00:49:09
Speaker
I just went it can't be people. And that's why I called it that. But obviously, knowing what I know now, it is people, but there is something else. um And I update. It's free to subscribe. And I update normally one or two weeks with either an interview or a new account from a crop circle maker.
00:49:26
Speaker
from back in the day and i'll make sure to include the link to that sub stack in the description of this episode so thanks a lot d and um yeah i'll definitely would be lovely to have you on again at at some point once the book um you know has been uh has been published or is in the final stage it's very very interesting that's fine thank you so much thank you bye like bye-bye bye-bye