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10: European UFO crash retrievals
224 Plays9 months ago
In this episode, we enter the world of UFO crash retrievals, a fundamental aspect of ufology. Following the significant developments of 2023 when terms like reverse engineering, exploitation programs, and non-human technology became popular, we turn our attention to European UFO crash retrievals. Our focus centres on the recently launched European Crash Retrieval Initiative (ECRI), aiming to map and analyse alleged UFO crash sites in Europe, both contemporary and historical. Join me and E.T. Persson, Senior Advisor to ECRI, as we discuss the initiative's background, setup, and objectives.
Get in touch with the show
Twitter/X: @EuropeanUFOs
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Facebook: European UFOs
Email: [email protected]
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Links mentioned in this episode
ECRI’s website: https://www.ecr-initiative.org/
To report a UFO crash site: https://vascoproject.org/report-a-ufo-crash/
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Transcript
Introduction to European UFOs
00:00:05
Speaker
you
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to European UFOs. If you like this episode, then please make sure to like and leave a review. It really helps. I'm also on a mission to keep this podcast ad free for all listeners. For that, however, I really need your help. There's a link in the description of this episode to buymeacoffee.com where actually for less than the price of a coffee, you can help me keep this podcast ad free. Your help would be so much appreciated.
UFO Crash Retrievals in Europe: Rise in Interest
00:00:43
Speaker
In this episode, we will focus on UFO crash retrievals, which in a sense are the bread and butter of ufology. This has become all the more apparent since the dramatic development of 2023 when terms like reverse engineering, exploitation programs and non-human technology entered the public domain.
00:01:04
Speaker
However, much of the discussion surrounding UFO crashes is based on evidence from the US, notably Roswell, Kecksburg, Aurora, to name but a few. Today we will shed some light on what's happening in Europe. The recently launched European Crash Retrieval Initiative, ECRI, has the ambition of mapping and analysing alleged UFO crash sites in Europe, both contemporary and historical.
00:01:29
Speaker
Here with me to discuss this initiative, its background, setup and objectives, is ET person, senior advisor to ECRI. I hope you find this episode interesting and if you do have information pertaining to UFO crashes in your country, then please do get in touch with ECRI. You can find the contact details in the description of this episode.
Meet Thomas: ECRI's Senior Advisor
00:01:52
Speaker
Hi Thomas, how are you doing today? Hello Sebastian, I'm fine thank you, how are you doing?
00:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, not too bad. I'm actually just recovering from a rather bad stomach flu issue. So it wasn't too nice this weekend, but always up for talking about UFOs and especially such an interesting project like yours. Yes. So what got you into ufology and what is your background? This is one of the typical questions I was asked by guests.
00:02:29
Speaker
For me, it's a pretty clear cut. I didn't take UFOs seriously until 2019 when I was on sick leave from the police department in Stockholm. I was working in a serious crime unit.
00:02:48
Speaker
I got, all of a sudden I realized that I had cancer, a tumor that I needed to operate. So I was on sick leave for a couple of years and discovered ufology by
00:03:05
Speaker
Listening to i heard something about ufos being real but you know it's cognitive dissonance it's hard to take in so i just in one ear and out the other but then there was a.
00:03:20
Speaker
And David Fraver was at Durogan, so I finally said to myself, okay, let's sit down and take UFOs seriously. Is there anything to this? Let's see if there's anything to this talk about UFOs. And that changed everything for me because the evidence is so overwhelming.
The Scientific Approach to Ufology
00:03:38
Speaker
Do you feel your background as a professional criminal investigator contributed something to your appreciation of the subject?
00:03:48
Speaker
Definitely. There's a lot of parallels between a typical UFO case and a typical... I used to work murders. I was a homicide detective when I got sick.
00:04:01
Speaker
And yeah, there's a lot of perils. And the scientific method is the most precise, right? But evidence can be, we have another acknowledged way of proving things in our society, and that's the criminal case, criminal law.
00:04:26
Speaker
And in a court, everything can be used as evidence. There's no rules that something can't be evidence as long as it's relevant and credible. It is evidence. So in ufology, there's not a lot of scientific
00:04:43
Speaker
scientific evidence to go by and there's almost nothing published i mean peer reviewed and published evidence for ufos there's almost nothing but the only real published. I'm scientist with evidence is actually.
The Mission of ECRI: Gathering Evidence
00:05:03
Speaker
And she would agree that her paper, as brilliant as it is, is not a lot of public published, peer-reviewed evidence for UFOs. So we need another method too, because we all agree that UFOs are real and they're proven enough. We have enough proof to say they're real, but looking scientifically, there's almost nothing. Strict scientifically.
00:05:27
Speaker
And Beatrice is one of your collaborators in Equi, which we're going to talk about in a few minutes, right? Yes, she came up with the idea. So it's her baby and she has other stuff to do, but she came up with the idea, which is brilliant in many ways. And so, yeah, it's her brainchild.
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, the last episode I did on this podcast actually dealt quite heavily with the issue of what different categories of data there are in ufology and it really mirrors what you just said that a lot of the data we have in ufology is quite overwhelmingly pointing to the fact that there is some thing but the data as such is
00:06:15
Speaker
highly amorphous, really difficult to make sense of. But nevertheless, if you apply rigid methods to it, I think something can be gleaned from it. So I think it's definitely a point we can all agree on.
00:06:33
Speaker
What we're here today to discuss, and I think this brings us very well back to the idea of evidence in ufology, is ECRI, the ECRI initiative or project. What does ECRI stand for, Thomas? The European Caracherical Evil Initiative and
00:06:55
Speaker
We have a web page that people can look into, and it's ecr-initiative.org. We haven't written that much on the website yet, but it kind of presents us and tells the audience who we are. Everyone should take a look at it.
00:07:16
Speaker
Yeah, the basic idea is to get our hands on physical evidence, which we can publish via Beatriz and other Swedish scientists, because it is a problem in mythology and the national security states, they have
00:07:37
Speaker
They look at this as a security issue and they can't seem to look at it any other way. They're kind of stuck in their realm, in their way of looking at this. So the free part of society, like scientific studies of ufology
00:07:59
Speaker
should try to get hands on the physical evidence and publish scientific papers on it. That's the goal.
00:08:09
Speaker
And obtaining the physical evidence would revolve mainly around crashes as implied by the name or are there also other lines of evidence you're pursuing here?
Challenges in UFO Material Identification
00:08:22
Speaker
There is of course other ways to get physical evidence for UFOs and
00:08:30
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non-human intelligence and extraterrestrials, and there's physical proof to be found. We could find it in other ways, but we're mainly focused at crash retrievals. That's our focus. A UFO crashes to get materials from those. But if there's
00:08:52
Speaker
A piece of evidence, physical evidence that you can discern where they come from and kind of have a solid background of it. It's of course interesting too.
00:09:09
Speaker
Yeah, I was just asking because I remember a while back reading about a case, I think it was in Finland or somewhere somewhere in Scandinavia, about a UFO and this isn't a singular case kind of emitting some sort of slack or debris, which is a really weird thing. Why would a really technologically advanced craft just squirt out slack? But apparently it did happen according to eyewitnesses.
00:09:34
Speaker
And these sorts of, I think, meta-materials, as Jacqueline likes to call them, are I think also quite interesting to analyze. Yes, there's actually quite a lot of cases like that where UFOs leave some kind of physical material and there doesn't seem to be any logic to it really. We have a case in Sweden from 1957.
00:10:00
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where a UFO landing, a saucer lands on an island north of Stockholm and two gentlemen in their brand new car comes along and their radio stops and their engine stops and there they are. It's a landed saucer right in front of them on the road and then it takes off and leaves and
00:10:26
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On the ground where the saucer landed, there's a piece of some strange material. It's a kind of wolfram alloy or something. And yeah, quite hard to tell because if you don't see any logic,
00:10:45
Speaker
from the materials coming from the UFO, it's hard to say that it came from the actual UFO. There wasn't like a piece on the ground and stuff because it doesn't add up to us sometimes, right?
00:10:59
Speaker
Exactly and I think also one of the issues though it hasn't really been published yet with these metamaterials is that they do consist of elements that you would expect to occur on Earth that probably the isotopic ratio is a bit different as to what you would normally find or expect so but yeah I think it's also another line of really
00:11:23
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valid inquiry to look into traces that have been left by these anomalous craft.
00:11:33
Speaker
But coming back to crash sites, how was this idea, because I know that you guys only started doing this quite recently, when was it? I think January?
Public Involvement and Transparency
00:11:47
Speaker
Yes, exactly. It's just like a month or like that also.
00:11:56
Speaker
Taking a step by step, we haven't gotten any results yet. Of course, we would publish that as soon as we have it. So everything is not set in stone, so to speak.
00:12:09
Speaker
Yeah, and so with with crash retrievals, your overall mission statement is what exactly I think you already alluded to it a bit in terms of the transparency that's normally shielded off by national security. What else is there? Well,
00:12:28
Speaker
The basic principle is to get the information out that there is a website and an organization that wants your information about crash retrieval or UFO crashes.
00:12:44
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So there's a form for people to fill out and there's other ways of contacting us, of course. So if you fill in this form, that's our basic, that's our start, right? We hope that people will
00:13:02
Speaker
we'll fill in this form and then we take a look at it and then we prioritize what cases to look into first and yeah so there's many ways to getting to the physical evidence and here are a couple of new ones who knows where it may lead
00:13:22
Speaker
One brilliant part of this is the attention it might get, because if we are recognizing scientists, Swedish and European scientists, making these kinds of serious efforts in getting scientific evidence to be published,
00:13:44
Speaker
it should raise the question and we hope that the mainstream media would pick it up so far and they haven't but we'll just have to keep trying.
00:13:58
Speaker
So would it be fair to summarize that the overall mission statement is, under one hand, to ensure transparency, that this issue leaves the realm of the shadowy national security state? And the second one would be the scientific inquiry, which these two go hand in hand.
00:14:19
Speaker
Exactly and publish the results. That's the main point right? Publishing scientific papers on UFO material.
Media's Indifference to European UFOs
00:14:32
Speaker
That's the holy grail.
00:14:34
Speaker
Perfect. I've worked in academia and science for quite a long time and one thing I do remember quite well is the continuous struggle to get funding and the required resources to do research. So how did you guys go about
00:14:56
Speaker
ensuring that there are resources and that there is enough funding to embark on what is probably quite an expensive endeavor to go out to crash sites, investigate them, investigate huge amorphous datasets and so on.
00:15:14
Speaker
Yes, that's a good question because the first part we do pro bono, we all work for free, starting Equi. But as you say, as soon as we need to go somewhere and professionally investigate a crash site that costs money,
00:15:36
Speaker
That can't be done easily if you need scientific, proper methods and gear. And if you need to travel and so on, we need funding. And I think we will solve that part by private donations or funding. If there's a crash site we need to go to, we will solve it.
00:16:07
Speaker
and hopefully we'll solve the funding too. That's the spirit, I like it. You have to have a good idea and a mission statement first and then other things will fall into place. Totally with you there.
00:16:22
Speaker
Have you received any feedback from other researchers in the ufological community yet? Are you collaborating on that level, let's say, with, I don't know, Jacques Ballet or some other luminaries in that field? We are not collaborating with those kinds of names, but we've gotten some support
00:16:47
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from big names in ufology. And we are definitely in contact with some more or less well-known names in ufology with information and tips and stuff. So yeah, that's going on, definitely.
00:17:05
Speaker
I hope, especially European ufology will, as you do, where I brilliant you with your podcast will recognize this to get the word out and to get a conversation going in Europe, because as you know, there's awfully quiet in Europe about you on the UFO topic. And that's the main goal also to get information out to
00:17:35
Speaker
the public and to the scientific community and academia and media. And really, media is the gas pedal, I would say. If mainstream media in Europe would recognize this serious efforts and serious topic, I think the conversation would change in academia and in Europe. Would you agree?
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was actually really disappointed and quite shocked when Grush revealed what he had to tell the general public. And all the legacy media, particularly in the US, but also in Europe, actually ignored this, what could really be a groundbreaking story and what was a groundbreaking story on its own behalf. And I think the only
00:18:31
Speaker
news outlet of the big legacy media that really picked it up was The Guardian in the UK and all German big publishing houses, so in Germany where I'm based, completely ignored it. I mean it's so ridiculous if you think about it and it just makes you wonder what else
00:18:51
Speaker
do you need to basically run a story? And perhaps, and this is where it goes back to what you guys are doing, perhaps it really is some, you know, seeing as believing some really nuts and bolts evidence that this is metamaterial we recovered. It's been scientifically published and analyzed. It's anomalous. Perhaps it's something like that. And
00:19:16
Speaker
Normally, my experience with journalists is they're not very good at interpreting scientific papers, but I think if they're guided with it, they can probably run a good story.
00:19:32
Speaker
Quite a good grip on what's going on in on the UFO topic in Germany and the UK I guess so there was what were they any newscast in a German or in English in the UK about the garage testimony on on national TV on big news was there anything.
00:19:54
Speaker
Not as far as I recall, I think in the UK there are a few, as I said, in The Guardian, in that newspaper, and also I think the Daily Mail and so on. So the UK, because of its affinity to the US, did lay its fingers on that story, a bit at least. However, in continental Europe, including Germany, France, and Eastern Europe,
00:20:22
Speaker
It was a non-story. I mean, it's appalling. It's especially appalling because all other marginal topics from the US are happily covered by German news outlets. And then this big one where Congress was involved is completely ignored. So I think new initiatives like yours, especially in Europe, are really, really welcome.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah, we'll see when they interview us about it in mainstream media. I'm not losing sleep over it because if they're not going to do news segments on national TV about David Grush testifying under oath about crash retrievals, then I guess they won't give Ekry a call either.
00:21:22
Speaker
Times will change.
Future of UFO Interest in Europe
00:21:23
Speaker
Eventually, we will have this conversation in mainstream media. So we just need to keep going and eventually the public interest is going to change. I think it's going to change this year in Sweden. And it's inevitable that it's going to change in Europe too. But there's always the question, right? When are things going to change? And your father seems to always be in this case.
00:21:50
Speaker
Exactly. I mean, I think we've come a very long way since 2017, since Leslie Keynes and Ralph Blumthold's article in The Times. But yeah, there's also obviously a lot of backlash in the US from gatekeepers. So what can you do? Coming back to the topic of European crash retrievals. So what else prompted this
00:22:18
Speaker
this focus on Europe. I mean, for me, for my podcast, it was really this issue that UFOs are obviously a global phenomenon, but they haven't been covered in Europe for whatever reason, to the same extent that they have been covered in the US. With ECPRI, is it also because it's
00:22:41
Speaker
Is it by your research design? Is it because it's easier for you guys to get to European crash sites because you want to start in a small area of investigation?
00:22:56
Speaker
There's a lot of focus about crash retrieval and almost entirely about the U.S. So, and we're Europeans, we're Swedish, so let's
00:23:14
Speaker
set the spotlight on European crash retrieval. Sweden is a big country, but we need a bigger market than just Sweden. In Europe, there's a lot of alleged UFO crashes, maybe not as
00:23:37
Speaker
as often as they crash in the US, you might think, but there's crashes here too. So I guess we will have to go out and investigate European crash retrievals because no one else is doing it, basically.
00:23:55
Speaker
Except the national security stays, of course, but I mean, on a private investigations and stuff, there's need to be the need to be an engine in Europe about crash approvals over here so we can get the conversation starting and not only focus on the US.
00:24:10
Speaker
Exactly. I think you just alluded to it. Who else is doing it? I think your main competitor, if that's even the right word in all of this, is the National Security State. To name it, it's the US military. What I'm getting at is, and I've read a lot of crash cases, but it typically comes in
00:24:36
Speaker
The drama unfolds in three acts. The first is eyewitnesses see that something fell from the sky. The second is the US military swoops in. And the third is there's some sort of cleanup operation. And literally, this is the case, regardless of where this happened in the world. This is always the case. And so given that there's this pattern, it suggests that there's quite a comprehensive
00:25:04
Speaker
security apparatus at play here. So how would you respond to that?
Securing and Publishing UFO Evidence
00:25:11
Speaker
Is there any way to kind of beat this powerful adversary in rushing to crash sites? We'll see. But there's lots of ways, as I said, to get our hands on physical evidence that could pop up in other ways that could be
00:25:31
Speaker
could be controlled enough to put something, to make science of it. But yeah, about beating the national security states, that's a hard thing to look, if you look at it one way, they have all the satellites and the radar systems and stuff. And they're gonna know when things crash way before we do. And if there's a crash out in the,
00:25:59
Speaker
in where nobody lives, probably the national security states are the ones that are going to know about it and nobody else are going to know about it. But if there's some kind of urban environment and witnesses, then there's a chance, right? And historically, it could be that physical evidence could pop up
00:26:23
Speaker
that the national security states haven't laid their hands on yet. And so, so there's, there's a lot of possibilities to get there. I don't think they, I mean, if we would find, you know, like extra terrestrial being a actual ET, that would be serious. That would change the conversation. And I don't think
00:26:50
Speaker
And when that day comes, we'll see how we'll deal with it. But I don't think it's something that happens every day. So I don't think we should calculate too much what to do with an extraterrestrial being. But materials, on the other hand, there's probably a lot of small pieces, fragments of materials that haven't been picked up over Europe, I would say.
00:27:16
Speaker
The only problem is finding them, of course, because they're probably really, really small. But if we get our hands on a really, really small piece of metamaterial, let's say, magnesium, zinc and bismuth, let's say, I don't think in this
00:27:32
Speaker
where we are at this point in 2024, we might get the green light, so to speak, from the national security states and the Americans to publish it because it won't change much. There probably won't be any
00:27:49
Speaker
100% proof that it's from a UFO. It probably won't be any 100% proof that it's non-human, but it might be good evidence. And I don't think that's going to change the conversation. I don't think the world will panic if we publish a scientific paper with metamaterials. People are not going to go crazy. The stock markets are not going to crash. I don't think
00:28:18
Speaker
Hopefully it gets noticed at most, maybe.
00:28:23
Speaker
Yes, I think the issue here really is who gets to the stuff first. And I think it's a really valid point that you just brought up is focusing on, you know, perhaps the scraps that have been left behind by, because I think we can, you know, if something big crashed, I mean, to my mind, there's no doubt who's going to be there first, simply because it's a multi-billion
00:28:49
Speaker
competitor you have to get a getting to crash sites but focusing on the scraps is definitely a really valid point that's left behind yes i don't know as i said i don't think and two thousand twenty four that the national security states are going to.
00:29:05
Speaker
see it as a big problem really for a small piece of UFO material being scientifically studied. It's not going to change much and we're all sitting in the same boat, right? We don't want to cause any large-scale panic, but I don't think the national security states, if they do their analysis,
00:29:31
Speaker
Correctly they should realize that publishing a paper on a small piece of. Material this pretty unclear that it's from extraterrestrials or non human. It's just gonna be good evidence but it's not gonna change the conversation really because the fact that we're there are materials from uber tube and raswell we all know that we don't need any more evidence to say that's far beyond reasonable doubt.
00:29:59
Speaker
There are materials, and people know this. Tens of thousands of people know that there's
00:30:06
Speaker
I mean, millions maybe now of the Grush testifying. There are crash retrieval programs because UFO crashes, they leave physical traces and the national security states are in, they have it. And there's also Nolan and Valet, they have the material. So, and that hasn't caused any panic, right? Not even close. So, I don't think it's a problem.
00:30:34
Speaker
No definitely not a problem and on the contrary i think it's going to make a really valuable contribution to pushing.
00:30:42
Speaker
the discussion one step further because this is a long game. I don't think it's not going to change overnight, but it's really important that there's a concentrated effort to move the discussion forward and focusing on that as a good way.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, probably. And there's, well, there's a big plan to how to do this disclosure with a big D. And we're, we're a couple of years into it now. And it's not going to be able, they can't stop it now, I think. But what could happen is, of course, if some other countries with materials and physical proof, if they
00:31:30
Speaker
terminate the old deal about the US being the disclosure country. I mean, that could happen as it looks now. There are rumblings about other countries, foreign adversaries, making disclosure. So that could actually happen, but let's hope it doesn't actually.
00:31:54
Speaker
I know you're still really in the early phases of ECRE, but could you perhaps give us a really short overview of how you would go about acquiring data on
Prioritizing Investigations Based on Public Reports
00:32:07
Speaker
crash sites? You already mentioned the online form where potential eyewitnesses can give you information about a potential crash, but how will you go about investigating a case after that?
00:32:21
Speaker
Yes, so of course there's an analysis about the information and then you need to prioritize the best evidence for where to go and what can be effectively won by going somewhere. You have to calculate, is it worth the time and effort?
00:32:42
Speaker
That's my game, prioritizing after how much evidence, collaborating evidence, and see. So if we have a crash site, let's say in Poland, let's say, and there's one witness, or there's two witnesses, or maybe it was a big thing back in the day, so there's a lot of info to get the precise location. That's the first problem, to get exact
00:33:09
Speaker
Location date of course is important but the exact location is of course the absolute most important thing and then you need to get your eyes and ears on as soon as possible actually i would say on site.
00:33:28
Speaker
And if you have eyes and ears on site, then a lot of things are going to clear up. You're going to understand what people could have witnessed anything on the local
00:33:40
Speaker
local people would probably have knowledge about what happened, or maybe they know who lived there at the time it happened. And so you can go from there and maybe get higher fidelity than you had from the start when you just had a form filled out from our webpage, which is not going to say a lot. And then, of course,
00:34:05
Speaker
Securing the place, so to speak, to see how the actual scientific serious effort, when you have to dig through the ground in some way or penetrate it or do it by later, that's the next step. I look at it as in two steps. First, we come
00:34:28
Speaker
And then the actual big effort to go there and scientifically dig out the place in a correct way. And that's not my expertise. Other people have expertise on that part. So my main focus is the judging the evidence, collaborating evidence, and then the actual digging in the ground.
00:34:56
Speaker
get that expertise from others than not from me. Yeah. But I guess with your background, you would be very skilled at assessing the eyewitness testimonies, right? Provided these individuals are still living, right? Exactly, yeah. That's always the biggest part in your quality. Without human intel, without witnesses,
00:35:19
Speaker
We wouldn't have anything, right? I mean, radar returns and stuff. That's really interesting to get speeds and accurate speeds and stuff about UFOs. But without human intel, we have nothing, almost. I mean, UFOs
00:35:38
Speaker
I think, actually, I lean more and more against this notion that UFO sightings are not accidental. I would argue rather that it's more about the witness than about an extraterrestrial going from place A to place B and just happened to get observed by people on the ground.
00:36:05
Speaker
doesn't seem what UFO sightings are many times. It seems to be about the observer more. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Yeah, and there's also this kind of related bizarre phenomenon that you might have a group of people but only of this group only one or two individuals see a UFO and even for these two individuals it may look completely different.
00:36:29
Speaker
So, you do have a lot of that going on, which kind of supports what you just said. It also neatly brings us to another topic that I would like to get your ideas on, and that's, I think, one of the big issues in ufology, or as a start question.
00:36:48
Speaker
Why do they actually crash? I mean, recently in the wake of what David Grush has been revealing, there was quite a bit of discussion about this, about different theories. But what is your take on this? Why do UFOs crash? Yeah. So we should be able to divide it into two categories, I think. They're accidental or they're not accidental.
00:37:17
Speaker
I can't see any other categories. So if there are accidents, then there are accidents. And I think that's the case in many cases. But I also, I think Roswell case, for instance, my guess would be that it's not accidental. But
00:37:39
Speaker
I would say that's just probable cause, maybe, that it's not accidental. Because in New Mexico at that time, there was Goddard. He did all his experiments with rockets and liquid fuels there. And it was also the place for the
00:37:59
Speaker
Trinity first atomic bomb test. And it was also the home of the 509th bomb squadron, the first squadron that bombed the first nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Why Do UFOs Crash?
00:38:19
Speaker
So that seems to be
00:38:21
Speaker
a lot of interest in rockets and in nuclear weapons because those two things combined are significant as the UFO interest kind of reveals. The UFO interest in nukes is quite clear and so there's a home in New Mexico at that time for both rockets and atomic weapons.
00:38:47
Speaker
So I don't maybe that wasn't an accident actually. And so why they crash and this Virginia is one of the best UFO case there is in my opinion, considering all.
00:39:00
Speaker
Criteria is about what makes a good UFO case. The Virginia 1996 case in Brazil is the best one. And perhaps you could suspect that it was shot down in that case because they knew it was going to the Americans knew they told the Brazilians that it was going to crash before they crashed. Seems like
00:39:22
Speaker
But we don't know. I have only guesses about why they crash. There could be more or less informed guesses just so. Does it matter? Well, our goal in ECRA is to get our hands on the physical material. The question about if it was an accident or if it was shut down or if it was a gifting field kind of scenario, that's for academic interest. And that's a later question, right?
00:39:51
Speaker
It's hard to ask a really hard question. Yeah, I mean, I completely agree. You know, I just wanted to pick your brains on that because it's something we're all struggling with this idea. Well, why would something that is so advanced repeatedly crash on this planet? On the face of it, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. But then it's so complex.
00:40:16
Speaker
We thought about if there are so many UFOs on planet Earth that we only see a fraction of it. If our UFO sightings are only a fraction of the activity that's going on on this planet,
00:40:31
Speaker
then maybe that could explain that many crashes, that it's actually much more prevalent than we suspect. So there might be just a small tiny fraction that crashes by accident, and that's what we see. We only see that part. We don't see the actual presence. The presence could be much bigger than we understand.
00:41:00
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I think only about 4% or a little bit more than 4% of the European landmass is actually covered by human-built surfaces. That leaves 96% that are actually not
00:41:16
Speaker
with any urban context, there is a lot of potential for stuff just falling from the sky, as small as it might be, and remaining undetected. Again, I do think that if something big crashes, probably the US military apparatus will have its eyes on that, but there's probably a lot of potential for smaller things to be discovered and to be analysed appropriately.
00:41:46
Speaker
Great. Let's say you've taken us through the methodology, you get eyewitness accounts, you then analyze them systematically, you go to crash sites, get potentially your hands on materials, then analyze them scientifically.
00:42:03
Speaker
What happens once you've published them and what happens to the materials? And this goes a bit back. This is also an issue that has been raised recently in the context of Grush, this idea on the Schumer Amendment, this idea of eminent domain.
Legal and Ethical Ownership of UFO Materials
00:42:22
Speaker
So who owns the stuff? Is it the government? Should it be in private hands?
00:42:28
Speaker
is it up for the research community? However, that is defined, what's your take on that? Yeah, as far as I know, there are, it's not my expertise, but I know, of course, I'm knowledgeable about
00:42:47
Speaker
the criminal laws and the laws that govern government and policing quite good. But as far as I know, there's no regulation about non-human materials. If there is, I haven't seen or heard of it. And I'm talking in a Swedish perspective now. So
00:43:11
Speaker
if it's not illegal, it's legal. So if nobody owns it, then it's, I think in a urine's prudence, in looking at it from a strict law kind of way, it would
00:43:29
Speaker
depend on how long the material has been on the grounds, I'd say. Because if you find something that's only been there for a day, or if you find something that's been a part of a piece of land for hundreds of years, then it would maybe be recognized as a part of the land. So that's a hard task. I don't think anybody can answer that question. I don't know.
00:43:58
Speaker
But we're going to look at it as a piece of material that belongs to the human race and this planet and us as the scientists that are going to take a look at it and investigate and do experiments on it. We're going to look at it as ours and then publish it so it can be
00:44:23
Speaker
viewed scientifically and for the whole world to see, hopefully. And if anybody wants to claim that we don't have a right to do that, we'll see how we'll handle it then. I can't really see a problem.
00:44:41
Speaker
In that regard, the expropriation thing is concerning American private industry, the military industry, and we're not a part of that, and we're not a part of that.
00:44:58
Speaker
their laws in the US. So I would say that doesn't apply to us. And if anybody claims that that's the case, then they have to show us a law that governs it. I don't think there is for us.
00:45:16
Speaker
Yeah, I think in the US there was partly, so it wasn't really because it didn't get passed in the end eminent domain, but I think there was also the issue of whether Nolan and Jacques Vallee, who are notably in possession of metamaterials, would then have to give them to the US government. So this was also on the table, but then again, it's not really anymore. Yeah, so
00:45:46
Speaker
What is your feeling about once you've published this and it's in your possession of collaborating with tech companies, tech investors? What do you think? Perhaps it's not something that
00:46:04
Speaker
is part of your role in ECRI. But on a personal level, do you feel this is something that should be made available to private tech investors, this sort of technology? Or is it something that above all should be studied scientifically? And after that, it's up for society to decide what happens with it.
00:46:25
Speaker
Yeah, I think for the benefit of mankind, right? That's our mentality towards this. It's for the benefit of mankind and private industry has a role to play, right? It shouldn't be all government that doesn't work. So, but then of course, there's also when private industry comes in to do business of things, it needs to be regulated and it needs to be
00:46:55
Speaker
We don't really know how this is going to play out right now. In the American case with the private industry that's as a whole can of worms that's very problematic so how this will. Play out i can't really tell really but.
00:47:17
Speaker
We'll all do it for the benefits of mankind and scientific evidence and scientific inquiry into the subject and spread the word and then the private contractors, private industry are going to maybe come up with new ideas, inventions from it. And that's the way the world turns, right? So I hope it will.
00:47:41
Speaker
play out in a good way. I have no idea how it's going to end, but what do you think? What do you see? That's fair. I mean, I think it's one of the things you can't really avoid to deal with
00:47:59
Speaker
Tech investors on the filtering through into the tech industry nor do I think it should be avoided because if we follow the idea that should be for the best of mankind then I think history shows that when something is left exclusively with the government it might not be always the best choice, so I do think that Tech companies do have a role to play here and
00:48:24
Speaker
However, it should be guided by ethical principles. This isn't unique to ufology, but it also applies to other things like cancer research, etc. Once we have reached that step,
00:48:40
Speaker
more discussion we need to have on ethical and philosophical grounds than anything else. But I think it was already a bit hinted at in the context of the Rush revelations, who owns this material, what is it for?
00:48:57
Speaker
And I think we can all agree on that it should be made transparent and openly available and not cloistered off by the military industrial complex. That's just actually a crime, especially as we have now discovered or as we've probably always known as we've been blatantly lied to for more than 70 years. And what Grush says is
00:49:25
Speaker
even moderately true, people have been threatened with violence, intimidated, and so on, and that's obviously just a crime. There's no other word for it.
Collaboration Over Secrecy in UFO Research
00:49:40
Speaker
No, absolutely.
00:49:41
Speaker
It's a lot of foul play and some people ask, why don't they land on the White House lawn? Why don't they make public contacts while we need to shape up? We need to do better. The foul part of this ufology kind of shows while we're not really ready. And so ufology needs to
00:50:11
Speaker
change in some ways, really, because
00:50:15
Speaker
We need to raise our voices and we need to unite and we need to go by evidence. And our moral standards should be, we can't tolerate that the national security states and mainly maybe the private military industrial complex. I mean, Eisenhower told us this over 60 years ago. He warned us about this.
00:50:45
Speaker
We need to go in a different direction with open scientific inquiry and private industry that wants to
00:50:57
Speaker
make new technologies. And there's nothing wrong with making money, but the way it's been done in the shadows in the past, that's not healthy. It's a very unhealthy way to conduct this kind of effort about crash retrievals and making technology out of them. And we have the national security states for a reason. It's for our own safety,
00:51:23
Speaker
And so their job is to look at the safety issues only. And if they hire military contractors for making weapons out of them, that's what they're going to do. And if that happens for eight years in the shadows,
00:51:40
Speaker
That's one route, right? But we need this other route with open and free society and private industries, free entrepreneurship and stuff and see how that plays out. And let's not only make weapons of them. Maybe we can make other technologies that benefits mankind and not only are done because we want to kill each other because of
00:52:07
Speaker
countries have borders and we have different cultures. So it's very unfortunate that it's become a weaponized issue.
00:52:20
Speaker
Exactly. But I think at least fortunately, probably they haven't really made any progress on that level either because one of your main mission goals with ECRI is to create that scientific transparency.
The Challenges of Understanding UFO Technology
00:52:36
Speaker
And what has happened so far is really the worst case. It's been
00:52:40
Speaker
uh shut off behind you know the military industrial complex them doing their own research and no one really being able to figure it out because if you only have highly compartmentalized research projects working on my new details of you know something very complex no progress can really be made i mean it's not a big secret and if we are to believe um
00:53:04
Speaker
different whistle-blowers that this is exactly what happened. They have no idea what it is. They pull it out of the box every 10 years or so to see what new researchers have actually, what new generation of researchers can make sense of it. But for 70 years or so, no one has, I believe, that really a clue what we're dealing with. Perhaps some aspects, if you are willing to believe,
00:53:27
Speaker
Philip J. Corso have been filtered down into private industry and so on, but I think the overall picture due to that compartmentalised system is still really missing and that's a genuine tragedy.
00:53:46
Speaker
Thanks a lot, Eric. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. Thomas. It's been really great talking to you today by way of wrapping this up. So we've already mentioned the website. I'm going to put it into the
00:54:06
Speaker
description of this episode, obviously. And am I right that on the website there is also a possibility to report crash sites?
00:54:21
Speaker
Yes, exactly. There's a form to fill out if you have any information about a crash site. Yeah, so last thing, Beatrice is on a mission to get, she looks at this as her
00:54:39
Speaker
She's a scientist and she sees it as her mission to get scientific evidence and to wake up the scientific community academia about there is actually scientific inquiries and discoveries.
00:54:55
Speaker
and knowledge to be gained from ufology. And so that's what that great cannabis is one of our offshoots for this goal of hers to help wake up the scientific community. And by then, if we managed to do that, then things might change in that way. Do you think that that's possible?
00:55:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I mean, if there is enough nuts and ballty things coming out of your research, something that even the most skeptical scientists can read in an ideally peer-reviewed journal, I think that's very beneficial to moving the debate forward.
00:55:41
Speaker
So, for the listeners who want to get involved, there is this means of reporting crash sites. So, dear listeners, if you have witnessed something in Europe, then do please go onto the website, which you can find in the description and hand in your case there. And, Thomas, is there also a way of
00:56:06
Speaker
contributing financially to equity for those who want to do so? If there is some interest in financing, they should look at our website and contact us via our webpage, ecr-initiative.org. And we'll take it from there. So yeah, that's what I can recommend.
00:56:35
Speaker
Sounds good. Thanks so much for being on today and I think we've had really interesting discussion about crash retrievals and what they also mean for society and for ufology. Thank you. Great. Fred, we'd love to have you. Bye bye. Great to talk to you. Bye bye. Thank you.