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21: Lights in the Cold War Sky - The Soesterberg Sighting(s)
87 Plays8 days ago
In this episode, I speak with filmmaker and UFO researcher Bram Roza about his new documentary, The UFO’s of Soesterberg, which explores one of the most remarkable mass military UFO sightings in European history. On February 3rd, 1979, twelve military police officers stationed at Soesterberg Air Base in the Netherlands reported witnessing a gigantic, dark triangular craft hovering silently over the base. The incident, which took place at the height of the Cold War, remains one of the best-documented UFO cases in the Netherlands.
We explore the key details of the Soesterberg case, including the official military response, how the event was reported in the media, and the involvement of Dutch and U.S. forces at the base. Bram shares insights from his extensive research, including interviews with former military personnel who saw the craft firsthand, as well as other previously unknown encounters from the region.
What really happened that night at Soesterberg? Was this a secret military craft, a case of mistaken identity, or something far more mysterious? Join us as we unravel one of the most compelling UFO cases in European history.
More on Bram Roza’s work
📽️ Documentary: The UFO's of Soesterberg (coming soon to streaming platforms), http://www.soesterbergufo.nl/
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Want a free transcript of this episode? Email europeanufos@gmail.com, and I’ll be happy to send it over!
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Transcript
Introduction and Listener Engagement
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello and welcome to European UFOs. My name is Sebastian and if you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a review on your chosen platform. Your support through sharing and liking really helps the algorithm and is greatly appreciated.
00:00:31
Speaker
Also, if you'd like to support the show and keep it ad-free, you can do so at buymeacoffee.com. The link is in the description. If you'd like a free transcript of this episode or any previous ones, just send an email to europeanufos at gmail.com and I'll be happy to send it over.
Exploration of Zysterberg UFO Incident
00:00:53
Speaker
Today's episode takes us to the Netherlands and one of the most intriguing UFO encounters in the country's history. We'll be diving into the sightings at Zysterberg Air Base, a Cold-era military installation where, in 1979, multiple military personnel witnessed an enormous silent triangular craft hovering over the base.
00:01:15
Speaker
The event remains one of the best documented UFO encounters in Dutch history, yet official explanations have been vague and unsatisfying, leaving many unanswered questions.
Documentary Insights with Bram Roser
00:01:27
Speaker
To help us unpack this remarkable case, I'm joined by filmmaker and researcher Bram Roser, whose new documentary, The UFOs of Zysterberg, takes a deep dive into this and other extraordinary sightings in the region.
00:01:42
Speaker
Graham's work is the result of years of meticulous investigation, including interviews with key witnesses and an exploration of the lasting impact of these events. He'll walk us through the details of the sightings, the military response and what his research has uncovered about this enigmatic case.
00:02:02
Speaker
Could this be one of the most significant mass military UFO sightings in Europe? Or is there more conventional explanation hidden behind decades of secrecy? Stay tuned as we explore the mystery of the UFOs of Sesterberg.
00:02:20
Speaker
Hi, Bram. Lovely to have you on the show today. Well, thank you very much for ah for having me. Yeah, of course. and You produced a, in my books at least, a seminal documentary on UFOs in the Netherlands um called The UFOs of Sesterberg.
Documentary Motivation and Investigative Process
00:02:43
Speaker
So it has the intriguing tagline, your documentary, which is about to release be released soon, the first Dutch documentary about ufo
00:02:54
Speaker
Could you, to to get things started, tell us a bit what motivated you to produce this first documentary, Dutch documentary about UFOs, and what is so special about the Sesterberg case, or rather cases?
00:03:10
Speaker
I just made another documentary about something entirely else. We were making a sort of platform about UFOs.
00:03:21
Speaker
We have our own Dutch reporting center. I started it in 2005, I think. A lot of people can can report their sighting there, but we never had our own place to um write or do opinion pieces about UFOs.
00:03:40
Speaker
So we just started ah sort of blog news ah website about UFOs. And with the launch, we wanted to do a great piece about one of ah Holland's most famous cases, just for...
00:03:57
Speaker
A starting piece. And unanimously, we thought about the the Susterberg ah airbase incident. So my companion with Dutch Reporting in the Center, alex Alexander Giffion, and I started looking into this ah this case.
00:04:16
Speaker
It had been pretty well reported on through old literature from the and 80s.
00:04:26
Speaker
But we just started digging and digging and digging. And um yeah, we came with a cool piece for this website. ah But I came across so many other...
00:04:41
Speaker
encounters around ah a radius of about three ki kilometers around the airbase where the the famous incident was.
00:04:52
Speaker
So I thought ah this, I can just leave it at this article on this on this website that nobody knows.
Detailed Account of 1979 Zysterberg Incident
00:05:01
Speaker
I just made another documentary and I learned so much from that.
00:05:05
Speaker
So what's what's the best medium to get this that this ah interesting multiple cases from Susterberg?
00:05:17
Speaker
out there ah in in the world. And so I thought, yeah, a documentary would be a great medium to do this. And so I started um making a documentary just, yeah, um from scratch, just um looking up different kind of witnesses and um and no we're doing boots on the ground research. That's that's it.
00:05:41
Speaker
Having watched the documentary, I can tell that it's ah very, rare very well produced and lots of work went into the research. What makes it so special is that you actually take the time to get those involved onto the camera and to tell their story.
00:06:00
Speaker
So um this relate all relates to the the famous case from the 3rd of February 1979.
00:06:09
Speaker
However, given that we are both UFO nerds, could you perhaps give our audience a an overview of what happened on that day at Sisterburg? Because I think it is one of those cases that isn't too well known outside of the Netherlands, perhaps.
00:06:26
Speaker
True, and it and it should be more well known because I skipped your question about why is it so special. It's special because ah it's it's a mass sighting and it's a mass military sighting. So the 12 people involved, the 12 witnesses involved, are professional reporters, you could you could say.
00:06:47
Speaker
um So, about the case. it's I have to first do a little history on Susterberg. So, in 1954, the Dutch government agreed to the stationing of a US Air Force Fighter Squadron to augment air defense.
00:07:07
Speaker
And the us USA forces operated from a part of Susterberg Air Base, which was named Camp New Amsterdam. And... um In 1979, the Cold War was at its peak, and Susterberg, as well as a bunch of other Dutch and European bases, served as the first defense line for the Americans against the Russians.
00:07:28
Speaker
So there was, at all times, a squadron of military police doing the rounds guarding the base. um Even at night, or for our UFO incident, we should say early morning, because we're talking about quarter to five on the freezing cold morning of February 3rd, 1979, like you said.
00:07:49
Speaker
um The base was quiet and and only a dozen military guards were on duty that night. And suddenly, a gigantic dark triangular vehicle appeared over the runway.
00:08:02
Speaker
It had beams of light that were so bright that you could read a book in it, and even in the middle of a dark early winter morning. So, um yeah, these were very bright lights, but there were also, like, beams.
00:08:17
Speaker
It glided silently over the airbase and disappeared over trees. And ah yeah that was that was just the event for the first two military personnel that saw the thing and communicated it over their radios.
00:08:33
Speaker
So that's the first ah flyover, we call it. Only one other post saw the same object fly over over the runway. And the other eight did the other eight of the the military personnel did not see it because they were inside or trees prevented them from seeing it.
00:08:51
Speaker
And they were stationed all on another ah part of the of the base. So there were multiple stations.
00:09:03
Speaker
um Then the UFO came back, and we call this the second flyover. It could be, of course, also another UFO, but we just don't know, so we just call it the second flyover.
00:09:15
Speaker
And then the other posts could see the UFO as well. So they described it as a blunt kite shape or a triangular shape with a rectangle at the back and ah three white lights on each end of the triangle and a smaller red light at the back.
00:09:34
Speaker
And it even flew so low, ah some people thought it was at the level of the street lights at the base. ah The event was super abrupt and unusual.
00:09:46
Speaker
ah So the guards were essentially yeah petrified. So they just stood there. And after five minutes, the object was at the end of the airbase and it shot into the clouds.
Military Explanation and Media Involvement
00:10:00
Speaker
um And that was dead. So, um yeah, and that's. And so these were. Basically like guards on control that night.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah. Military police, um, that they call it, I think. So we have a total of 12 witnesses who so who saw this event unfold.
00:10:24
Speaker
Yep. What happened in the military chain of command after this um you know incursion on shared Dutch and US military installations? quite Quite a serious incident.
00:10:40
Speaker
Yeah, so um that's that's a little bit of a mystery because um the people I talked to said they reported to their sergeant, their their company commander.
00:10:56
Speaker
The company commander saw it as well. He was one of the witnesses. um And he said he um he made a report. um and ah that And then there was an internal investigation.
00:11:15
Speaker
But we don't know anything about that investigation. Alas, we tried to do an investigation. how do you call it a Dutch foyer yeah like a freedom of information ah yeah exactly it's called the W.O.B. here um but um unfortunately the military say they um they can't release anything about Susterberg at the time of the Cold War
00:11:48
Speaker
so um yeah We just don't know how how it went about, that that internal research. um In the meantime, ah someone tipped off ah ah Dutch media.
00:12:03
Speaker
So the Nobovo, that's um a Dutch UFO group that was very active in the 70s. asked if they could question all all the all the all the all the witnesses.
00:12:20
Speaker
They could. um ah Also because there was a Dutch radio station that was asking to do an item on it.
00:12:33
Speaker
So they yeah the guy in charge of all the PR, he thought it was okay. and And they just did that entire ah radio program with a kind of reconstruction with the witnesses all in ah ah in a room. And they...
00:12:55
Speaker
put on a chalkboard what they saw and they yeah got interviewed by the journalist from this Dutch media radio station. and And yeah, so um when that was all over, then the the official explanation by the Air Force came um because this this this radio interview, this this media appearance on the base was essentially a few months after the um the incident.
00:13:30
Speaker
um So the internal investigation of the military base had been done already and they were um yeah they were ready to put out the verdict.
00:13:45
Speaker
And the verdict was that um yeah the official explanation was ah from the
Validation and Skepticism: Nobovo's Role
00:13:52
Speaker
Air Force was was a temperature inversion. So they said it was a reflection of car headlights projected into the sky as a result of temperature change in a higher layer of air.
00:14:02
Speaker
um Yeah, and the soldiers were not amused. They were stunned. They had, because they had seen a large and above all physical object, something technological even.
00:14:14
Speaker
So now they were ah rid ridiculed by the Air Force essentially. So that's, yeah. yeah Seems to be a common theme in in UFO circles, this kind of happening.
00:14:32
Speaker
The temperature reversion is a classic one. Indeed, yeah.
00:14:37
Speaker
what What I did find interesting, though, is that even though the military was kind of secretive about what happened, or at least not cooperative,
00:14:49
Speaker
the um nobovo took kind of a pivotal role in investigating the case so how did this come about the was was there a direct uh were they commissioned by by the air force to look into the case or did just happen by chance that they got involved and produced a final report um I think someone ah tipped off the the media and um so this this this radio station got hold of it, but also some papers wrote about it.
00:15:26
Speaker
And um yeah, this this Nabovo was was on top of everything u related at that time. sode um yeah So they just went full in and asked if ah if they could do an interview with with oh with all the witnesses and also look around the base, did some samples.
00:15:50
Speaker
um And they... did an entire um reenactment on the base with with the help of some ah soldiers and they eventually wrote it all down.
00:16:04
Speaker
um it's it's ah it's it's ah It's a really good ah detailed um ah piece of work and they they published it in their in their magazine, Ufological Newspaper.
00:16:19
Speaker
And Yeah, that was that was the basis of of our article as well, because it's it's so detailed and it was exactly from that period.
00:16:32
Speaker
And after 1979 and official explanation from the Air Force came. um Yeah, nobody talks about it anymore. So that Nabovo investigation ah and publication was, um but is is is still is the best thing we have. And that radio interview as well by a Dutch media outlet VPRO.
Challenges in Documentary Production
00:17:00
Speaker
and So yeah, that that combination of ah Nabovo's research and reconstruction by the radio of personnel was really, yeah really important.
00:17:12
Speaker
And there are also very um interesting clippings of of that broadcast in your film, in your documentary. I probably really enjoyed listening to those because you can really tell the agitation and excitement on the part of the soldiers having witnessed what they saw. So that definitely adds another layer to all of this.
00:17:36
Speaker
So the official conclusion of Nobovo was, yes, this truly is a UFO. So they interviewed witnesses and I believe even went to the site, right? Had a look around. and um And they were also headed, weren't they, by by a scientist. i kind of say oh my He reminded me a bit of J.L. Hynek, just the Dutch version of him, more or less. Yeah.
00:18:03
Speaker
Well, he kind of was because um he was an astronomer. he was he was kind of famous as well because um the the the Dutch astronomy prize for ah Dutch researchers that found something astronomical has its name.
00:18:21
Speaker
So he was it was kind of it was kind of famous, um um but he was super skeptic. So he was the... the the old Hynek version ah rather than the and the one Hynek later came with UFOs.
00:18:41
Speaker
But he was open-minded. So he was part of Nobovo. So he was part of a ufological... ah group um But he was the most skeptical of skeptics. And um since his death, ah for ah an until his death, he always said, suusstherbergg the Susterberg incident was the only a real UFO case for me in in the Netherlands.
00:19:08
Speaker
And then more than 40 years after the incident, to you and your team entered the scene and um start us started digging. So what did you find out and um who did you interview? where were Were these guys still alive? At least some of them are the key witnesses. I think after 40 years, that's kind of justified to ask.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah, it it was really hard to find to find ah people. And I didn't find anyone for a very long time. So I only found um the the PR guy, the the the dude that ah initially um ah said okay to to all the research.
00:19:55
Speaker
um ah He's called... Colonel cost Costa Miller and he's a really cool guy. um He was very open and he thought
00:20:11
Speaker
the the conclusion of the Air Force was not okay. So he believed believe those 12 military guards and um yeah, he wanted to talk about it um when I found him ah and eventually after After years, i think two years, two two corona years, I think, I've also found the first witness.
00:20:35
Speaker
So he could really help me as well. um He saw the UFO a little bit different than the ah the other people. So he saw a triangular object, a black, dark triangular object with three white lights.
00:20:53
Speaker
um and Contrary to the the the other people who saw... um more like a blunt kite object or a triangular object with a rectangle at the end.
00:21:09
Speaker
So these are the two main witness witnesses from um from the Susterberg Air Force incident. Um, later on when when the documentary was already made and I did a, uh, uh, a Dutch cinema tour, around, uh, around the Netherlands.
00:21:32
Speaker
Um, suddenly like got tapped on my shoulder because I always do a Q and a um, afterwards. And, and then there was, uh, uh, it was another witness.
00:21:42
Speaker
Um, and he, uh, he talked about, uh, how, uh, how cool he thought the the documentary was because it was all like he had in his memory. So that was, it was and a good compliment and it was great for me to find a new witness.
00:22:01
Speaker
ah So I interviewed him later on, on my own podcast. um But he's obviously not in my film. So that's that's a pity.
00:22:13
Speaker
ah It's also a pity because um loads of the of the people, um ah of the witnesses, ah just, yeah, they died already.
UFO Sightings and Nuclear Installations
00:22:27
Speaker
um Or I just couldn't find them because they have such common Dutch names. that it's It's really hard to find. um So, yeah, those two witnesses are um are the main ones. I also found another, um I actually found a whole bunch of witnesses, ah but they're they are all other cases.
00:22:50
Speaker
But I put them in my documentary as well. Yeah, exactly. And we can talk about those um actually in in a minute, because I think that's that's a great thing about your your documentary. So you not only report on this key sighting, so to speak, but also on all the other evidence, which was completely unknown up until then. So i think that's That's really good.
00:23:14
Speaker
What was your impression of the willingness of witnesses to come forward, at least with the ah primary case? Was there a lot of stigma attached to coming forward? I mean, they're retired now, right? So you would think that should be fine.
00:23:33
Speaker
Yeah, I found the the the witnesses I have in in the documentary were ah just fine with talking about it.
00:23:45
Speaker
they um I explained that I wanted to make a film that was not a mockumentary or a mocking mocking them, not mocking the the UFO was subject.
00:23:59
Speaker
And I said I wanted to redeem ah those military guards. um And so these people were, yeah, they were they were okay with it. And wanted to tell their story.
00:24:12
Speaker
um But I found some witnesses as well that just did not want to take part of the of the film. Because um they were mocked.
00:24:24
Speaker
by their colleagues at the time when they got home, they got mocked by their spouses and by, and by their friends and family. And when they got back to the base, they got mocked once more by that official statement from the Air Force.
00:24:41
Speaker
So they were done. They were so done. they they It was' a was a little bit traumatic for some, but I think it depends on personality.
00:24:52
Speaker
um But of course, I wanted those witnesses so bad for my former documentary, so I kind of harassed them. Until the point that they said that they wanted to go to the police if I harassed them even more.
00:25:07
Speaker
So, unless I had to let them go. um So, yeah, um some were reluctant and some ah were okay with it.
00:25:18
Speaker
The case is obviously related to um the military and a very important or strategically important Air Force base during the ah Cold War.
00:25:30
Speaker
what is the what is you i mean What is your theory as to why that particular military ah installation? why Why that one?
00:25:42
Speaker
Well, um I never, yeah, I'm always um a little hesitant to give my personal view about it, but um There are obviously obviously some um speculations about ah UFOs and nukes. We all, at least all the do real UFO nerds know about the Robert Hastings books, UFOs and nukes.
00:26:11
Speaker
And there are loads more of incidents um that are not in in that book. about UFOs and flyovers over bases and nuclear, yeah,
00:26:28
Speaker
nuclear power plants and and and that stuff. So the the connection with nukes. um So the the base, the Susterberg Air Force Base,
00:26:40
Speaker
um probably had nukes, but we don't know this for sure. So um it was well known for everyone in Susterberg to... ah yeah they They all said that there are nukes there.
00:26:59
Speaker
But there's there has never been an official um ah statement about nooks being stationed at the Sussaberg Air Force Base. So we just don't know.
00:27:14
Speaker
but There were always protests going on ah during the Cold War at Susterberg Air Force Base. There was even camp, a women camp, a sort of peace camp that was campaigning against the nukes at Susterberg.
00:27:33
Speaker
There were even... great marches that were organized from the Susterberg airbase to other airbases where nukes were present.
00:27:45
Speaker
So, um yeah, for some people it's very obvious um that there is a UFO connection because there probably were nukes at Susterberg. And for others, um yeah, well, there were nukes all over Europe probably at the time, and there are no big cases for those.
00:28:08
Speaker
No big UFO cases for those places. So, yeah, it's... It could be a nuke there could be a nuclear link. that's ah That's an answer to your question.
00:28:21
Speaker
and And related to that, do we have any idea to what extent the Americans controlled the situation because it was a joint Air Force base? The Americans had a considerable proportion of the resources and area there.
00:28:36
Speaker
Like a few ah well over a year ago now i did a podcast um with um with a journalist on uh german ufo cases and he meticulously recorded quite a few but the issue with um ufo cases in germany is that um you know germany during the cold war but was divided so um or the information you can get are either in America or in Russia.
00:29:04
Speaker
So I'm wondering if we might have a similar situation also with the Susterberg incident. Yeah, that's that's um that's difficult to say. um have been trying to do a FOIA as well to to to to the Air Force just to see if they had anything.
Zysterberg Air Base: Past and Present
00:29:25
Speaker
But they constantly referred me to Rammstein Air Force Base because that was the hub for the European bases. um And I never heard anything back from my correspondence to or my letter to Rammstein.
00:29:42
Speaker
But um yeah the Americans were were at the Camp New Amsterdam, so that that was their place at Sussaburg Air Force Base, for about 40 years. So that's ah that's a long time.
00:29:55
Speaker
um And they even had their own sighting in the same year. um like got But I can't find anything about it. um So we don't really know that much about yeah um anything around this this issue at that time. It's it's so long ago. i just can't find anything anymore. um and And I tried to I think I've asked like 50 people, 50 Americans that were stationed at the base at 79. And I found them all through um Air Force groups on Facebook.
00:30:41
Speaker
um But they all... Well, 50% didn't hear anything about it. 50% said, yeah, we heard something that happened, but we weren't there at the time. We we we didn't see it at the time. So we just heard like a ghost story that there was ah a ah UFO, but nothing more. So I just can't say anything about it. But but the browser was a big problem.
00:31:06
Speaker
Although there was only a a fighter squadron at the Susburg Air Base, there was a big presence there because there was also whole um ah block of housing ah for the Americans. There was even a supermarket, the very first Dutch mcdrive was put up there because the americans were stationed over there so so the the american presence was kind of big but it's also very hard to say what it was all you know it's it's shrouded by mystery a little bit yeah so the americans brought you mcdonald's and ufos so i think that's probably exactly yeah and and and loads of people also think that the Americans were but testing ah you know secret government fighters or something like that.
00:32:03
Speaker
um but And should be an explanation for the UFO of Susserberg. But it was kind of silent. It was like 50 meters wide, this object.
00:32:16
Speaker
um And why should you, yeah, why should you do it at Susterberg in the Netherlands and not at Area 51? I don't know.
00:32:27
Speaker
and and Before we turn to the other cases you unearthed doing your documentary, one thing I wanted to ask you is, because I think what's really lovely about your documentary is that you actually go to the site with the witnesses and you get a really good idea what it was like. And a very...
00:32:48
Speaker
what it was like and it's a very atmospherically charged um scene you you present there to to the viewers. So I really enjoyed that. But how easy was it these days to, um as ah as a non-military person, to get access there to go to the original sites? Is it still used as a military base?
00:33:11
Speaker
No, actually it's not. So the runway is still there and some bunkers are still there. um But it's now... And there is a ah military museum, which is really cool and really really worth visiting if you are in...
00:33:27
Speaker
in Holland.
Additional Witness Accounts and Documentation
00:33:28
Speaker
um But actually, it's now kind of overgrown the whole base. So ah it's ah it's a it's a nature reserve now with loads of unique ah plants and even wildlife. So You can walk and you can bike over there. You can even walk over to ah over the runway and you can ah go into the shelters.
00:33:56
Speaker
um So, yeah, it's it's pretty open, ah but you need a permit to um film there. um I had not, but i ah to see yeah i yeah ah those I just in the beginning but was a little bit of a guerrilla project.
00:34:15
Speaker
um But I eventually need... ah did me a lot of paperwork to get into the military locations for the other cases that are in the documentary. So we had to visit tank
00:34:36
Speaker
and ah
00:34:39
Speaker
ah yeah, a tank practice site and we had to go into the, the ah into an army base.
00:34:52
Speaker
Um, yeah. Uh, and we even got sent away, ah when we, uh, were at a ah military training site, uh, for the, for the case where the lady on the horseback, uh, saw a giant flying saucer. So we, we, we had some difficulty, um,
00:35:10
Speaker
ah to to shoot on other locations, but actually the the Air Force Base was was kind of easy. But I think um it it really made all the difference because seeing the sights for yourselves, I think that's really beneficial to actually um appreciate the the gravity of what what unfolded there.
00:35:31
Speaker
And I really love the opening scene where it's kind of this um wooded area and it's gray and foggy. And I think one of the um former soldiers just walks down the runway. It has really, really good atmosphere there. So it's a really great, great scene.
00:35:47
Speaker
Yeah. When we, when we came along on that day, i thought, oh no, there's mist everywhere we can shoot. But then, oh my goodness, this, this looks perfect. it's like twin peaks. Exactly. Exactly. No, it's really good.
00:36:00
Speaker
Um, so you already mentioned the, um, woman or rather girl and with a horse, um, back then so Back then, she was a girl, but obviously now she's a bit older. so This is ah case um that also happened in 1979, but um that wasn't reported so far.
00:36:18
Speaker
so Could you just give us a summary of what what happened with that lady? yeah sure um by the way i don't know if you mention if if you um if you saw it but um i didn't do the cases in um in order of of of of year but i did the cases in order of um close encounter so uh this one is the the ce1 the close encounter of the first guy I think that was a very, very clever structure. I was actually going to mention this later, but I love how you take us through the grade of intensity. It's very, very good. Yeah.
00:36:59
Speaker
Okay. So the, um, yeah, um, yeah, the, the, the woman who was riding her horse ah through the Leusterheide. So that's the training area of the army base and it's adjacent to, this was the Berg air force base.
00:37:12
Speaker
um And when she came to a clearing, she saw a huge saucer-shaped object with bright, colorful lights hanging over trees. um And she thought it could be as big as 20 or 30 meters even.
00:37:26
Speaker
So that's like 65 to 100 feet. um And after watching it for some 15 minutes, she decided to take a closer look. And when she... Yeah, yeah she's brave.
00:37:39
Speaker
um And when she yeah arrived at the forest where the UFO was hanging over, she loses sight of the object. um But she she goes into the forest and and when she thinks she is at the location where the craft and would be right over her, ah she stops with her horse.
00:37:58
Speaker
um But at that moment, she hears some rustling through the foliage and her horse was startled and she had an awful feeling that she was no longer alone. um show Then she hears loud crack.
00:38:12
Speaker
She panics and flees. And after riding at full speed, she gets on top of a hill and she looks back and over the forest and and and the object has has disappeared. So, um yeah, it kind of kind of is when you when i say it like this it's kind of a short uh event but I think in in real life, it was pretty significant because the object was so bright and luminous and big.
00:38:43
Speaker
um Yeah. And it has this kind of Oz factor thing to it. ah to see Yeah, it's it's very, and I think people really have to um listen to the interview um because you get a good feeling of the enormity of of what happened there. I mean, she, according to her own words, she watched it for 15 to 20 minutes, which is insanely long. too Yeah.
00:39:11
Speaker
It doesn't move. It doesn't move either. So it's just stick to the, stick to the air or something. And she just wants to see it fly away. She said, um yeah, she was so eager to see it fly away, but it just didn't happen. So then she just,
00:39:27
Speaker
yeah walk Yeah, there's this surreal um atmosphere which really transpires um quite well in the interview. and However, I did love the um the end of the interview um when when she reported on how she called the, um I think, local police station.
00:39:47
Speaker
And she got quite annoyed because they told her they didn't see anything on radar within like two seconds or so. And and she said, well, how how do you know? you didn How can you check the radar in two and two seconds?
00:40:00
Speaker
That was quite funny. Very good of her as well, because how could how could they know? you know Exactly. So how did you come across that lady? did she um what Was that whilst doing your research on the main case? or Oh, man, it's... um The documentary has been so long in the making. i just i don't know anymore how I got across... ah Oh, i well, maybe... ah think...
00:40:29
Speaker
I think I just, um no, I researched Susterberg and there was a tiny article by um Robert Salas.
00:40:43
Speaker
ah Yeah, Bob Salas. He wrote about it in his book about ah UFOs and nukes. he He did a book as well about UFOs and nukes.
00:40:56
Speaker
and not his latest one that is called the the nuclear puzzle, I think, but but his first one. in In his first one, he yeah talks a little bit, just three sentences, I think, about um about about her case because she thought at the time...
00:41:20
Speaker
Let's, um ah well, not not in the 70s, but later on when she saw a documentary on TV or something about UFOs or on the Susserberg case, she thought, let's let's find so find on the internet someone who can who knows more about UFOs. And then she came across, um yeah, Robert Sellers, I think.
00:41:43
Speaker
i can't I can't quite remember the whole the whole story, but it was... Oh, that's completely fair. I mean, you've interviewed so many people, done done so much research. I mean, it's ah it's quite a challenge to keep up with all the names and piece together the individual stories behind the interview. So ah well done.
00:42:03
Speaker
Thanks. So the the second case in the Close Encounter Mysteries then takes us to 1991, I'm not mistaken, right Yeah, you're right on. yeah I think this was one of my um my favorite cases just because I really enjoyed the um the witness, the ah report of the witness. He was this kind of down-to-earth guy and a pretty young, I think, at that ah at that time when he when he was doing the patrol there with his with his buddy. But um yeah, just give us a brief overview of of that case.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah, so 1991, it's still a Cold War, um but now it's dominated by Operation Desert Storm and the in the Middle East.
00:42:52
Speaker
um at Anyway, the the two soldiers at the Susterberg Army Base, like you said, um just a few steps away from the aforementioned airbase,
00:43:03
Speaker
are doing their rounds and it's about three o'clock in the morning and they are just um yeah they're stopping for for a cigarette break and and and suddenly they see a gigantic circle of lights about...
00:43:16
Speaker
um yeah
00:43:20
Speaker
It's hard to tell, but he says could be about 20 30 to 40, about 50 meters wide. It just hangs in the air. um And there's no real object to be seen, just a tight circle of bright colored lights rotating clockwise.
00:43:36
Speaker
um And suddenly the circle starts to spin and and and the individual lights just, yeah, they become one and it shoots it shoots up um and when the When the soldiers want to continue doing their rounds, they both get thrown on the ground by a mysterious force.
00:43:57
Speaker
And ah both men found the incident very traumatic, as they were very ill for days after the incident. and Some people think it's because of some radiation.
00:44:12
Speaker
And he himself, the the the witness I talked to, think it's because of ah of shock, traumatic shock. And, um yeah, I like this one as well because you just, you know, throne by the ground by mysterious forces so high strange. I never heard that before.
00:44:35
Speaker
And you just don't make that up, you know. Yeah, and and exactly. So I just found this guy just for some reason, I mean, it's always hard to tell, but i just found him very credible because back then he was really young. I mean, you could tell that they these were just two two kids, you know, doing their military service and, you know, just...
00:44:56
Speaker
having a smoke and then seeing something that's so beyond them that it really, you know, caught them off guard. And then that's, yeah, it's an amazing story. And I think it's, well, it should be taken quite, quite seriously.
00:45:10
Speaker
I found this one on, on, on the Mufon database, by the way. So that was, ah that was quite, ah ah quite a find actually. Yeah.
00:45:22
Speaker
so it's ah it's and It's amazing what what kind of research went into this and um you know then you looking at people, contacting them and then on the off chance that they're A, still alive and B, willing to talk to you. So yeah, that's very, very good. It also explains that. So how how long did you work on the documentary overall now?
Analysis of UFO Encounters and Consciousness
00:45:44
Speaker
hoof I think um um i wrote we wrote the article. i have to check it out. The article we did 2018, I think. So think we were already into research for a year.
00:45:57
Speaker
ah think we were already into research for for a year um So let's say, i Jesus, the times are flying. So for seven years or something?
00:46:13
Speaker
ill Probably seven years of intense work. It's quite a long time. But we needed we needed it as well because um you know you don't find all the witnesses all at once. you know And they don't want to ah participate at once. So you have to...
00:46:34
Speaker
Massage them a little bit. Yes. But and you have to trust her. um Yeah. ah they They have to get to know you and you have to visit them for multiple times um through the years just to yeah to' to get their trust.
00:46:52
Speaker
um so So you need that kind of ah time, I think. And then there is what would probably be classified as an abduction or at least a missing time episode, right, with that Sergeant Major.
00:47:08
Speaker
I found this case also obviously highly anomalous, but also very difficult to make sense of because um there are there's just this missing time element and it just, um you know, enters this realm of just complete weirdness.
00:47:26
Speaker
Could you tell us a bit about that case? Yeah, that's and that's an earlier case. It's 1972. um And um it's it's so weird that um yeah he he calls it a dream himself because he can't explain it. you know um ah found this one in, I think, an old book, but it's also been done in the ah the classic Flying Saucer Review magazine.
00:47:55
Speaker
um which did a very good job by reconstructing it all with its but drawings and stuff. So that's cool. Anyway, um this ex-surgeon major from the Dutch army, he wakes up.
00:48:10
Speaker
He lives in Susterberg. And he wakes up in the night that to a buzzing sound. ah He looks out of his window and he sees a bright light surrounding his parked car. And he immediately thinks, well, it's it's a fire.
00:48:26
Speaker
His car is a new car and he jumps into it, hoping to put out the fire by driving. ah But there's also an element of forced um movement. So um this is it starts weird ah with with this point already.
00:48:47
Speaker
so he um ah When he looks in his rearview mirror, when when he's still stationary, ah he sees a sort of dancing ball of light bouncing up and down on the trunk of his car.
00:48:59
Speaker
ah He's terrified and he speeds up. or he He goes driving and some mysterious force yeah forces him to drive to a military train.
00:49:11
Speaker
it's ah It's a parachute landing field. and ah And there you see is a gigantic lens-shaped craft emanating three bundles of green glow, ah and green greenish light.
00:49:25
Speaker
um Behind him, he hears something get off the car and he sees a sort of figure runs beside direction that lens-shaped craft.
00:49:38
Speaker
ah to to in the direction of that land-shaped craft and he sees then he sees two beings signaling something to him, and then they get into the craft.
00:49:52
Speaker
um And that ball of light that followed him um in his car, that flies on top of the craft, and with a green glow, the whole thing shoots into the sky and disappears among the stars.
00:50:05
Speaker
So Then he's just ah left there on this parachute landing field. And he gets really cold because he's just in his pajamas.
00:50:17
Speaker
And he drives home and his his wife is there waiting for him. And she says, what the hell have you been doing? And he says, yeah, I don't know.
00:50:27
Speaker
I think I've been sleepwalking or something. I think it's a dream. It was weird.
Future Projects and Reflections on Documentary
00:50:32
Speaker
um So, yeah, that's that's about it. Do you know if this is from conscious recall or did he go under hypnosis? Did he say anything about that?
00:50:43
Speaker
No, this is all conscious. Yeah, this is ah this is from conscious recall. No hypnosis where was it was done. Well, that's that's pretty incredible. I mean, just in the last episode, i did ah the um I interviewed. um Yeah.
00:50:59
Speaker
Yeah, that there was an interview on the Simphreta case, and um ah yeah it it has a lot of similarities to this particular case, also this kind of forced behavior, this very surreal aspect. So, yeah, seems I do see the red thread in a lot of this. so Yeah, i've I myself always think with these close encounter cases about some kind of manipulation of the you know of the consciousness or that it's half physical and half
00:51:38
Speaker
not in this reality or something. um and and there are way weirder aspects on all these cases. um so But I couldn't put them all in in the documentary because it's just too detailed.
00:51:53
Speaker
So now I'm ah writing a book about all the Susterberg cases in in detail. And there are even some more cases of people that didn't want to do the documentary. So ah there's a book coming as well.
00:52:10
Speaker
wow that's um um Well, well, be sure that I'll be one of the first readers. Very, very intrigued by yeah i this, um by all of this.
00:52:22
Speaker
Then just ah for the sake of completeness, there's one final close and encounter case in the documentary. And I believe um This one was handed to you or in ah in a textual form, right? So he wasn't interviewed as such, but nevertheless, you um did report on it in the documentary. And it is a very scary case. And I should also mention at this point that um the artistic work you have interspersed throughout the documentary is absolutely amazing. And it kind of adds to the overall
00:52:54
Speaker
atmosphere um whilst not being super subjective so i think it's a very very good addition and here you do also use um artistic imagery to underscore the main main points of that case so this was basically also missing time and uh presumably an abduction case, right?
00:53:18
Speaker
This last one. could could Could be. um Yeah. Thanks, by the way, about ah the the illustrative animations, animatics, we have to say, because they're static animations. but um I also got a lot of um ah people ask me if they should do all kinds of 3D renderings of the UFOs. And I and didn't want to do that because that's so very American.
00:53:49
Speaker
So I wanted to be a real European. and to read That's why i chose for these city things. um So this this ah last case is um is is a more contemporary one. It's 2018.
00:54:06
Speaker
um And we got this case through a social media platform from our ah UFO reporting center. ah We did interview this guy, ah but ah at the final stages of doing the real interview on on camera,
00:54:23
Speaker
um he um he didn't want to do it anymore. um it's ah It's a story of a young adult ah that just moved to Zeist. That's some three ki ah ki kilometers, like two miles from Susterberg.
00:54:40
Speaker
And he was exploring the surroundings and came across a forest. And in the middle of this forest us is a big sandy clearing. And but when he gets near this clearing, all ambient sounds go away. So again, the classic Oz factor.
00:54:54
Speaker
um yeah And then he ah walks up up a hill and sees there is a gigantic black oval object in the middle of the sandy plain.
00:55:06
Speaker
And um it doesn't move. It doesn't do anything. It just hovers like a meter above the sand. ah It looks like it's copied and pasted onto reality, he said. though Those are his exact words.
00:55:19
Speaker
ah So he gets a little panicky because he thinks he might be spotted by the object or or to things yeah the occupants of the object.
00:55:36
Speaker
He doesn't see any details, by the way, so it's just a black oval. um And he hides into the bushes, into the shrubbery, and then he hears a cracking of branches as if footsteps were coming his way. So a lot of similarities with Josie, the horseback riding woman.
00:55:58
Speaker
and He then run then runs away as quickly as he can. um and When he gets home, his girlfriend tells him he has been gone for hours while he thinks he has been on a stroll for about and half an hour or something.
00:56:11
Speaker
so yeah There's the missing time aspect. and He ah he looks up his telephone and and he sees it's riddled bit with missed calls.
00:56:25
Speaker
um So missed calls for about the three hours. Yeah. um Yeah, that's about it. There is no other sign than the missing time for for this to be an abduction, but you know it's a telltale thing, of course.
00:56:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I think it's just this high high strangeness factor. And this um what what kind of stayed with me is just this, I don't know, there's something strange and uncanny about um huge black shapes were, you know, seeming out of context. It did remind me of Kubrick's 2001 and the monolith. um Just very bizarre for the human psyche to, to get used to stuff like that. So yeah, pretty, pretty uncanny case.
00:57:13
Speaker
Yeah. And it, it, it stays, it's, it's, it's so uncanny that I, I always make make stickers for my um a UFO reporting center, but this one sticks with me so so so badly that I ah ah put it on ah on on my newest sticker. It's just a black oval and two people ah bicycling underneath it because it's, I know, it's eerie and it's powerful, yeah.
00:57:41
Speaker
To wrap this up, I really ah really enjoyed our interview, Bram, and ah you mentioned there were also lots of um individuals you've interviewed that, um you know, for the sake of time and resources, you couldn't feature in the in the documentary as such, but there will be a forthcoming publication.
00:58:01
Speaker
Do you think there's something about Sister Burke independent of the Air Force Base that makes this, let's say, a hotspot of some sort?
00:58:14
Speaker
Or do you think it's really just, you know, let's go into kind of a bit of speculation here, do you think or do you think it has to do with the Air Force Base as such?
00:58:24
Speaker
um I've ah thought about it and speculated about it a long time. Some people even said, yeah, you have to check out all the ley lines that are conversing.
00:58:38
Speaker
um But there's... There's no ley line map that is the same. So it's not doable. um The funny thing about Susterberg is that it's the absolute center of Holland.
00:58:54
Speaker
So that's funny. um And sure, there's an Air Force base there and there is an an American military presence there. So mystery... ah is looming all the time and the Cold War is of course hotbed of I don't know kind of yeah what are they doing there and Maybe the Russians are flying over and all that kind of stuff. So, um yeah, that that could be possible for the psyche of witnesses. I don't know.
00:59:26
Speaker
um But I also think um i've I've been doing research into dutch the Dutch UFO cases for...
00:59:39
Speaker
20 plus years now. And think if I will do a deep dive into, for example, Amsterdam, I'll probably come up with a similar documentary ah with all kinds of cool close encounter cases.
00:59:56
Speaker
And if I will do ah piece, a deep dive research in another ah province or the Netherlands, I will...
01:00:08
Speaker
I will come across interesting cases as well ah in in in a small vicinity. um So I think UFO um ufo sightings are more common than people think.
01:00:25
Speaker
I think you have to dig and I think you have to get people to talk. And that's not easy. But I think because the Sussberg Air Force Base case, the incident was so ah prominent and god got a little bit well known, um i think more people i wanted to talk about it.
01:00:54
Speaker
So that that might have helped. But I think There's nothing really special in Sustenberg for me, for me personally. Well, see, this is very very interesting. I never thought about it that way. But um yeah, if you if you invest a lot of time and energy and really dig down on on one area, yeah, you...
01:01:16
Speaker
you get ah very granular picture that probably, and as you said, um actually shows you how how common the yeah UAP issue actually is amongst the general populace. So I think that's um that's that's definitely a new perspective for me and and and a new bit of learning. There is something I can ponder on now, but um this kind of This kind of micro research might be a very valuable tool because if you think about ufology, it's always kind of this um looking for large, looking at large data sets and trying to identify general patterns. But there is also something to be said of looking at micro regions and really digging down.
01:02:01
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think it would be really interesting other researchers would would do the same thing. And I know, for instance, Preston Dennett has done it as well, ah even though he lives in america America in the United States, but he sometimes gets really small places and ah still has loads of cases in one particular location. Yeah.
01:02:23
Speaker
Yeah. Perfect. Well, I really enjoyed this and I really enjoyed watching the um documentary in an unofficial preview, as it were. So when um can the audience expect to um see the yeah release of your documentary approximately? So not on the date, because I know that's always difficult to say, but just approximately.
01:02:46
Speaker
Sure. um Yeah, so my agent says um ah we it's possible to to see it before spring. um So that's probably at the end of March.
01:03:00
Speaker
And um then probably you can probably see it on loads of different streaming services. And there are but probably small streaming services that ah work with with ads instead of an... um Yeah.
01:03:20
Speaker
What do you call it? An abonnement? Yeah, like a subscription. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So so you could probably see it online somewhere with subtitles. I'll definitely include the um link to the official website in the description of this episode.
01:03:37
Speaker
And um you are currently working on the book on Sisterberg. Do you have any idea when and that will be finished?
01:03:48
Speaker
I hope because i um because I'm not a writer myself and I don't know where to start. um So I've asked a friend of mine, Thadis Maitis, he wrote all already two books about UFOs. So I asked him and we will do a collaboration and he's quite fast.
01:04:08
Speaker
So I think, I hope it will be done at the end of the year, but um maybe that's a little too... I don't know. We'll see.
01:04:20
Speaker
Well, that's the thing about deadlines. You know, you always have deadlines to push them further down the road, so to speak. so Sure. All the research is done. so yeah yeah Excellent. Well, thanks a lot, Brian. And yeah, very much looking forward to seeing all the um great things along the horizon with your work. And would be lovely to have you on again and some point to talk about all your other UFO-related research, not just the sister book.