Transcript
Speaker: you
Speaker: Hello and welcome to European UFOs. My name is Sebastian and if you liked this episode then please leave a review on your chosen platform. Any sharing and liking you do makes a huge difference to the algorithm and is very much appreciated. Also if you want to support me in keeping the show at free for listeners then please go to buymeacoffee .com. Therefore less than the price of a coffee you can really make a difference. The link to buymeacoffee .com is in the description.
Speaker: that UofA's exhibit anomalous physical characteristics has become part of ufological lore. There are anecdotal reports of craft doing right -angle turns at incredible speeds and other maneuvers that simply would not be feasible without current technology.
Speaker: At the same time, UFOs are known to have had a measurable impact on their physical surroundings, be it in the form of landing phrases, electromagnetic effects and, in some rare instances, eyewitnesses are known to have suffered medical consequences as a result of their interaction with UFOs. But how does one study the physical characteristics of a phenomenon that is highly erratic, anomalous and difficult to measure?
Speaker: For several decades, Dr. Massimo Teodorani, a Northern Italian astrophysicist and today's guest, has dealt with this question. Dr. Teodorani holds a PhD in stellar physics and has been a researcher at the Astronomical Observatories of Bologna and Naples at the Italian National Institute for Astrophysics Radio Telescope of Medicina and has taught physics as a lecturer at the Universities of Bologna, Rome and Torino.
Speaker: He was also the lead scientific advisor for the 2000 -2001 EMBLER research project in Stalin, Norway and has conducted onsite research at several known UFO hotspots, for example in Arizona and Ontario.
Speaker: UFO hotspots play an important role in Dr. Teodorani's research because they allow for the recurrent measurement of what is generally speaking a highly elusive phenomenon. At the same time, drawing on his expertise as an astrophysicist, he has been able to develop and implement a science -based approach to UFOs employing measurement systems commonly used in physics. Guiding Dr. Teodorani's research is the objective of identifying correlations between different physical parameters of UFOs
Speaker: so that we can say something about their propulsion, physical makeup, and general behavior. In this episode, Dr. Theo Durrani and I will delve into the past and present research at the well -known UFO hotspot of Hestalen, and we'll talk about how science, in particular astrophysics, can enhance our understanding of UFO phenomena through data acquisition and theory building. Hello, Massimo. Great to have you on the show.
Speaker: Thank you for having me here. Thank you very much. Massimo, you are a super well -published author. I've checked your research gate profiles over well over 150 scientific papers, articles, many of them peer reviewed. You have more than 15 books. What got you into the arcane subject of UFOs, UAPs? How did you get interested in that?
Speaker: Well, I have to tell you that this was about 30 years ago.
Speaker: I was reading about UFOs, oophology books, but honestly, very soon I started to be bored. By reading always the same story, even if with some constants, which are interesting, the witness is a very important factor in UFO study. But I had also to consider which one is my specialization.
Speaker: which I am an astrophysicist, I have a PhD in astrophysics, and I was wondering how and if it's possible to apply the same methodology that we use in astronomical observation.
Speaker: in studying this kind of phenomena? Namely, can we be able to acquire data like high resolution images, spectra, optical spectra, infrared data, radio data with spectrum analyzer, magnetic data?
Speaker: to use all these instruments all together, so a multi -wavelength platform.
Speaker: which is a philosophy that we are using currently in astronomy in order to try to interpret the data and to be able, through the numbers that we obtain, to derive a concrete physical model of what we are looking at. So the point is that it's not only to take a static image of an object, like a spectrum, for instance.
Speaker: But we want to see how the data are changing.
Speaker: in time, because the variation of the physical parameters in time, like I would say luminosity, color, magnetic field strength, and whatever, the variation of these parameters can give us important insight on the physical mechanism of the object, which is dynamical. So this is the way in which
Speaker: in the past, in astronomy, studying the way in which the astrophysical phenomena vary. In time, we understood the physical mechanism, for instance, of objects like quasars. We understood that sudden outbursts of energy in multi -wavelength can be explained by a gigantic black hole
Speaker: in the nucleus of these galaxies. From the variation of the stars we could understand that from measuring the change in time that there could be stars that are eclipsed into each other if they are on the same sight line or stars that are pulsating. And we deduce from the data the physical mechanism because then we model it numerically
Speaker: And we see how the observed data fit with the mathematical model. So the idea is to try to do the same with UFOs. I call them UFOs. I'm not yet able to use UAP.
Speaker: Same here. It's funny. I don't know. It's something a little bit formal, politically correct. I don't know what I... I would call it UFOs in the sense as Dr. J. Allen Hynek at all the time. So unidentified, not necessarily spacecraft from other stars.
Speaker: So the point is that differently from stars, which have very well -known coordinates, which remain always the same. In the case of UFOs, we don't have this. We don't have this constancy.
Speaker: their apparition varies randomly in space and in time. So it's much more difficult. But we are a bit lucky because there are some places in the world in which this kind of light phenomenon, like nocturna lights, and mostly speaking about nocturna lights,
Speaker: Now, I'm not speaking about flying saucer, that could be, but it's an additional thing at the daytime. Nocturnal lights appear in a recurrent way. So, it seems that there are some areas of the world, in particular, there are several, not only S. Dalen, but in particular S. Dalen, because it was not the first to have been
Speaker: used measurement instruments, but surely it's the one that has been studied more in the last 40 years, okay, since 1984. So it's a laboratory area, and so this is very good because we can place instruments
Speaker: and hoping to have the luck to observe them, in particular using automatic stations that are working 24 hours a day. So practically there is something, the principle is that you use
Speaker: something like an all -sky camera that has been instructed by artificial intelligence to exclude man -made objects like airplanes or missiles or something or natural phenomena of some kind and accept only the anomaly. When the anomaly is accepted through the all -sky camera or
Speaker: through directed camera, because there are particular directions in S. Dalen, for instance. Then we will pass this information, the coordinator, a local, a Tassimutale coordinator, to a pan -zoom tilt camera that will zoom on the object. And we'll take analytic data, which can be images.
Speaker: or spectra. Okay, spectra is very important for trying to understand something physical about the object.
Speaker: Perhaps before we get into the nitty -gritty details of all the natural science methodologies there and methods we have at our disposal, I think what's very important about what you just said is how to study a, per se,
Speaker: erratic phenomenon and i think what what just came out here is that you should focus on hot spots right so where it's recurrent i have an automated measuring system so and i think that's a very method or method logically speaking a very important approach i was gonna go back to.
Speaker: Kind of the nature of UFO evidence, what do you make of already existing data? Because I mean, I have bookshelves full of, you know, various UFO books with eyewitness testimony, sometimes machine measured data, but really machine measured data only makes up a very small proportion. So what do you make of the corpus of existing UFO data?
Speaker: Yes, well, I think I've been reading or consulting many books and articles. What I can say is that there are different kinds of phenomena that are mixed together.
Speaker: Some kind of phenomenon could belong to the category of lightning, for instance, with no doubt. Many, many apparent UFO phenomena in reality can be very prosaic phenomena, like, you know, airplane headlights that is aiming at you, or strange situations, geometric situations which can be
Speaker: explained by man -made things. But with no doubt, and also due to my own weakness, there is something else. And I can tell you because I'm quite well, very well informed about aerospace technology.
Speaker: And I know what kind of airplanes or drones are flying over our head, in particular military airplanes. So I know what can be passed for a UFO. For instance, a B -2 bomber, you know, that old wing bomber, American, if it's seen edge -on, would like a flying saucer.
Speaker: But many other things, absolutely not. Yes, it's true that we have experimental drones with triangular shape, with a loath and shape, which is under experimentation. But when I go on the issue of regime of motion,
Speaker: then I can attest that no one of our aircraft is able to make sudden change of motion 90 degrees or accelerated speed that is something like 25 ,000 km per hour. Not even our
Speaker: With high speed, hypersonic missiles can reach this speed. We can reach something a lot more than 10 ,000 km per hour. So we cannot do that. And we cannot stop in the air and all of a sudden jump to a speed of, someone says, 10 km per second or something.
Speaker: We cannot do that. But the statistics that has been wagged from screen data says very clearly that a small percent of what seems to be strange is really intrinsically strange. And also things like changing color from red to blue or
Speaker: maybe correlated with speed, which I would like to see. Strong interference effect on electric devices. There is a big paper, which is practically a booklet, which was published more than 40 years ago by Marc Rodaguer, who is a PhD. Yes, it's a great book.
Speaker: It's a great book and it says a lot of witnesses about that. So we cannot be indifferent to these kinds of things. Science is rigor and calculus and experimentation, but also exploration, above all exploration. So we have to explore this without any gossip. We're not caring what our colleagues are saying.
Speaker: So you would say that previous data that might have not gone through the peer review process, just because ufology was always a bit of a outlier there, still has its merit and still has its value of being studied. It might not be high quality in many cases because it's eyewitness -based, but one can still aggregate it into something useful.
Speaker: I think some of these, mostly they are books, I would say, can be useful, especially because they could guide physical scientists to specific place and place instruments where there is a lot of weakness. So this is very useful.
Speaker: Not all of the so -called gray literature is useless only because it's not peer -reviewed. There are some technical reports also written by engineers, by pilots, which can be really very useful. And there is in particular an article which is peer -reviewed and published on the
Speaker: a non -mainstream journal, but a peer -reviewed journal, the Journal of Scientific Exploration, which has its own h -indexes, so it's valued like all the other scientific journals. And this article was published in 1998 at a Pocahontico conference organized by Professor Peter Starroca, and it was published by Jacques Vallée, because Jacques Vallée
Speaker: is not only interested in some speculative aspect of ufology but is also a physicist and he published an article of physics speaking about the luminosity that could be evaluated
Speaker: having some parameters in hand, you can reconstruct and make calculations also through weaknesses sometimes. They are affected by error, but you can already have an order of magnitude of the phenomenon.
Speaker: And this is a fundamental article because it says that luminosity sometimes can reach incredibly high value up to, if I well remember, 3000 megawatt or something like that.
Speaker: Having this in mind, I have to trust that not only because a PhD is publishing this or because it's published on a peer review journal, but because this evidence, which is testimonial plus some calculation, can address our own investigation. And I tell you how. If we have a very high luminosity,
Speaker: And if we have that for a sufficiently long time, this means that we can take images with a very short exposure time. So we can catch the phenomenon before it goes away very quickly. And we can also catch a spectra which requires 10 times more exposure time.
Speaker: But if the phenomenon is very luminous, then we can take much more favorable spectra of the phenomenon with high resolution also, so that we have a good quality date. So in the past, yes, there is a lot of grey literature, some of which can be important, some of not. There are books that...
Speaker: disregarded but others are and we have to be humble we have to go through them and take like a sieve you know and to see
Speaker: to put all the stones on the sieve and see which nudges are coming out. We have to take the nudges. We need to be patient in this. Some of my colleagues are very prominent.
Speaker: they are extremely well prepared but they are not sufficiently patient and there is some kind of laziness among some of my colleagues not all which might prevent us from learning something new from the phenomenon because we need to be humble and see well
Speaker: They witness says this, is it true? Well, let's see, let's try to measure or something. So I think we should be more open -minded to not to the interpretation of the witness, okay? But to what they think they've seen so that we can test with our instruments.
Speaker: Thanks a lot for your estimation of the value of the grey literature corpus. I'm pleased to say it gives me another excuse to buy more UFO books. That's good. You already mentioned your colleagues in science.
Speaker: Within the wider astrophysicist community, physics community, where do you think the kind of lack of motivation to really engage with UAP comes from? I mean, we all know there's a certain stigma attached to it. Do you still see this? And if so, where do you think in the 21st century this still comes from?
Speaker: I do see it still. Yes, absolutely. Many colleagues.
Speaker: since they are more interested in their career than in scientific exploration. I have no difficulty in telling this because I see it is so. And there is a lot of prejudice, a lot of stigma, even mocking sometimes. And there is this, but there are also colleagues who don't speak, who don't want to speak about that publicly, who are
Speaker: very interested in the subject. And even if they don't tell this, but they tell them this privately. Their interest is genuine. And most of them think about a natural phenomenon of the bow lightning kind.
Speaker: But some of them accept the possibility that the phenomenon is coming from extraterrestrial visitation. I remember we were at lunch at Stanford University, we were somewhere there at Palo Alto with
Speaker: friend Erlingstrand and Marcia Adams and we were invited by Professor Peter Starrock. At some point he was very sincere and appreciating because he is also a very good resource.
Speaker: a greatest physicist. And he told me plainly, well, I've been pondering the phenomenology and what I really think is that the only explanation is that we are visited by other beings. And he was very sincere. And that's a possibility, but it's not the only possibility. The point is that
Speaker: Do we really think that this is an intelligence that should come from other planets or are there other possibilities?
Speaker: Is there some hidden people somewhere on our planet or something much more esoteric? What about other dimensions, which is by the way studied by theoretical physics, okay? But inside our community, if you speak about other dimensions, they look at you like a magician or something like paranormal, they confuse the possibility of other dimensions with the paranormal.
Speaker: Apart from the fact that I don't think that there is nothing paranormal, there is something normal that we didn't understand yet. So we have to accept, in my opinion, several possibilities because if we fix since the beginning the hypothesis that must guide our experiments
Speaker: you might filter out other possibilities and you might ignore some things that you might instead would be very important. So my personal approach is different from the one from Professor Avi Loeb, for instance. By the way, I've been collaborating with him for one and a half years.
Speaker: It's different because they accept the possibility that they come from other planets. It's possible that they have sent probes. It's logical also. It's rational. My position is different. My position is more open to all the possibilities, not only to that.
Speaker: not to guide my experiments but only to concentrate on the data that we see because only the data will tell what we are dealing about and not our belief system or our
Speaker: rational belief or something. I am not starting this research following a chosen work hypothesis, but only interested in making strategies like a tactical or military in some way
Speaker: and strategies in order to obtain high quality data using well calibrated instruments. That's the most important thing with the high signal to noise ratio, how to do that. And then only afterwards we can decide, okay.
Speaker: And I think obtaining high -quality data is a very good keyword that brings us to Herr Stalin full circle. So I had Erlingstrand on last year, early last year, and it was really interesting for him to give us a picture of the 1980s, what was going on in Herr Stalin.
Speaker: Now, you've been instrumental in three Italian missions, so perhaps you could give us a brief overview of what happened in Herstalin, why Herstalin is important, and also if the Italian fieldwork missions produced anything that complements the picture at Herstalin. Yes. Well, we didn't understand yet
Speaker: how the mechanism works physically. But we were able to have a much, much better picture of how the phenomenon behaves. For instance, sometimes, or most often, the light phenomenon that is seen there looks like a
Speaker: orb of a very luminous phenomenon, which is not stable in luminosity, but it is pulsating. And sometimes it seems it increases its radius.
Speaker: So in the beginning people were thinking that phenomenon is inflating, but looking better with higher resolution in the photos I mean, and this was something that I contributed to the missions, we can see that sometimes this phenomenon, apparently plasma phenomenon,
Speaker: is the nucleus of the light is all of a sudden surrounded by a cluster of many other lights. When you look at this complex in this cluster from far away from 10 kilometers for instance,
Speaker: You will not see, you don't have enough resolution to see that, but if you use a zoom lens, you will see that there are many other lights around. So they increase the luminosity because luminosity increases with the square of the radius.
Speaker: I took a quite good spectrum but unfortunately not sufficiently high resolution because we didn't have enough money to use high resolution spectrograph. So it was a good quality grading.
Speaker: on the camera photographed at a long focal length, so the increase of a factor 5, the resolution. What came out was that there were three peaks
Speaker: The spectrum was not only one bell -like curve which reflects the sensitivity curve of the instrument and also of the phenomenon itself. But it was really three peaks.
Speaker: And it's strange because I would obtain something like that only from three different LED lights, like artificial substantially. Even if speaking with a chemical physicist, he said this kind of LED light could be also produced by some natural phenomenon.
Speaker: Anyway, that was the first time, in my opinion, in my knowledge, that we obtained a so -resolved spectrum. And there were some people telling, oh, well, that is car headlights, OK. So I did tests, OK. And I took spectra of car headlights using both a DLSR digital camera and a conventional camera.
Speaker: What comes out is totally different. There is nothing to be compared. Massimo, could you perhaps just give our listeners on a very high level a summary of what spectrometry does? Because I did some reading on it, so I think with my non -physicist mind, I understood at least partially what it does, but perhaps you could briefly summarize. Oh, okay, absolutely. It's substantially...
Speaker: You take a grating. A grating is a sort of, it sounds like a prism. The effect is the same. It decomposes, it disperses light, which normally is white, in many colors. And this is the so -called continuum spectrum.
Speaker: which is represented by the temperature of the object. And if you see lines, like spectral lines, over inside this continuum, then it means that in that point the plasma is not totally ionized, so electronic ions are out of the
Speaker: gas and but it's only excited so there are some quantum jumps there is excitation but electrons didn't live yet the the atom okay this excitation level gives information about also temperature and about the chemical element that is producing that thing for instance if we expect that we have
Speaker: a very hot source that is heating with the atmospheric gas like we expect both from a natural phenomenon or from a solid phenomenon that is ionizing the air, then we would see spectral lines at
Speaker: of different intensity, which tells which elements of our atmosphere, for instance, oxygen, hydrogen, for instance, nitrogen, which of these elements are excited by this phenomenon. And if we see them, then we can say also how many atoms were involved in that,
Speaker: What should be the temperature of that? And in some particular case, if we have enough resolution, if there is some very strong magnetic field inside the plasma, because a strong magnetic field
Speaker: change the profile of the lines once they are plotted on a graph. Intensity versus wavelength aligns something like a bell shaped thing in a very narrow. But sometimes the line can broaden very much and split in two parts.
Speaker: And from those two peaks, we can measure the intensity of the magnetic field if we have enough resolution. You don't do that with a normal grating. And if the intensity of the magnetic field is sufficiently strong, something like at least one Tesla. So we can obtain a lot of physics information.
Speaker: In addition to this, you have to consider that at the same time, we were using other instruments, like a VLF spectrometer, which is a very long
Speaker: wavelength and something like between zero and 25 ,000 Hertz. And we, like Erling Strand suggested, people witnessed there in S. Dalin had the sense of sort of a rocking emotion like to be in a boat while they were seeing this phenomenon.
Speaker: And this is an effect of the very long wavelength, VLF, ELF. So we went to use that. And we did. Thanks to the work of my colleague, engineers of the Radio Astronomy Institute, where I worked in the past,
Speaker: We brought a very powerful antenna installing it in Stalin, and we saw a lot of phenomenology there, which is most of all man -made by communication from submarines, for instance, or ionospheric from the ionosphere. But there was one particular behavior
Speaker: which had a Doppler behavior, that impressed me very much. It was something that was moving very fast, alternatively away from us or towards us. So you had a Doppler effect towards the red part and towards the blue part.
Speaker: I imagine something that we couldn't see it at that time that was approaching and see them from us and this is a physics physics like phenomenon on which i like to create a scenario which speaks.
Speaker: apparently about a natural phenomenon, but probably also an artificial phenomenon could have created that. Much like a pulsar, you know the pulsars in astrophysics, you have a strongly rotating plasma ball
Speaker: you have a magnetic field, a magnetic axis that is misaligned compared to the rotational axis. And this is rotating very quickly and alternately it sends high energy particles towards us and away from us. So it's something like a pulsating magnet. It's only a scenario that I would like to imagine
Speaker: Mostly if it were a kind of a natural phenomenon like to be a big ball lightning. The point is that
Speaker: More or less a few days later we were witness of a phenomenon in the sky that cannot be considered natural at all. It was a triangle in the sky with the three lights in the vertexes that was approaching us very slowly and there was no light in the center of the triangle
Speaker: But I could see with binoculars very well, a sort of fuselage, because there was a residual light. It was summer in Norway, so I could see something dark grey. It stopped over our heads, and we were five at Aspostchiol and observing
Speaker: spot and it rotates very slowly over our head and instead of going away it turned off and disappeared over our head. That thing was a machine. No doubt. But this is not enough to say that it's an alien machine because
Speaker: Already that time there were experiments on drones. I know that in Trondheim, for instance, which is only 200 kilometers away, there was a laboratory that was experimenting on drones, but little ones. That one was looking to be very big over us. Not only that, but two or three days later,
Speaker: We were at the same spot and we saw a little ball in this case that passed over our head, very close, and stopped for at least 10 minutes, hovering at the height of a fur tree that was less than 100 meters from us.
Speaker: What was that? It was looking like a translucent thing, low luminosity in this case, like a giant firefly, okay? And they could calculate the dimensions which was about 40 centimeters, okay? Giant firefly there, stopping and hovering all the time, okay, there. So there was something that, well, apparently it was not mature.
Speaker: So the conclusion after these missions is this. It seems there is a natural phenomenon, highly energetic, and some external causes trigger this kind of phenomenon.
Speaker: And at the same time, there is something else that is overlapping with the nature of phenomena. Sometimes I like to do jokes with my friends or with my colleagues telling, well, some alien spacecraft come here, make a gasoline, soak energy, and go away, or something like that. Yes, there was that. Then we used also the microwaves. Yes.
Speaker: Can I just ask you before you get into the different approaches? I think these two sightings are absolutely amazing and fascinating. What's the general proportion of geometric shapes at Herr Stalin? Is that a common thing or are we mainly dealing with balls of light?
Speaker: I know for sure, but this is only from a witness case of an important witness person in Stalin. The triangular shape was seen already another time on ground, on ground. But also other shapes have been seen, including a cube, something like a cubic thing, Erlingstrand as
Speaker: sent me something like a video, a photo of a witness who took a photo of a printed cubic thing. And there are figure -shaped things.
Speaker: that have been seen both at daytime and at nighttime. In fact, this is not our mission, but it was something that the Norwegian documented in 1984. And they saw something like three or four lights of different colors that were moving. They were not moving between each other.
Speaker: but it was like if they were attached to a dark solid object. So there are also some photos about this.
Speaker: apparently a solid object. So there is an overlap in this dalin, but not only in this dalin, also in other places of the world, especially in the United States. There is an overlap between apparent life energy phenomena and structured phenomena for some reason that we don't know. And yes.
Speaker: Apart from the geometric morphology that hints at this potentially being not a natural phenomenon, is there anything else in terms of intelligent behavior that would suggest we're dealing with something that is absolutely not natural? Is there some indication of intelligence intention?
Speaker: Well, regarding the missions that we did, I would say no and maybe yes, because why did that triangle over our heads?
Speaker: Why a few days later there was this little probe was just close to us. Was it controlling us? I don't know. Maybe it was a coincidence. Okay. So there is an interrogation mark here. I cannot say if it was intelligence or if it was a coincidence. Regarding intelligence, there is a thing was a factor which happened also
Speaker: in other nations of Erlingstrand, probably Erling has told you this, in 1984 he aimed a laser beam against a blinking light phenomenon.
Speaker: And he said in his report in 1984 that the light phenomenon reacted eight times out of nine, changing rate of pulsation. This apparently is intelligent, but it could also be a kind of photon -photon reaction that we don't know yet. So we have to be
Speaker: that they will advocate of ourselves. We can have some wishful thinking or something, but we are able to be very cautious, okay? In Stalin, at the best of my knowledge, nothing else happened that made me think about intelligence, but this happened here in northern Italy where I live.
Speaker: I was not making research there and I was smoking a cigarette lying outside at my countryside house at my Volkswagen Golf and smoking a cigarette and thinking nothing. All of a sudden, I was triggered to look at the sky and I saw a light that was moving.
Speaker: Like if it was, look here, you have to look here, and now look here. It happened five, six times, this thing.
Speaker: But it didn't happen only to me, but it has happened also to another physicist in the beginning of the 80s and of the 70s. In Missouri, he was a doctor, hardly a rough legend, and he was a solid state physicist. An important physicist, by the way.
Speaker: He decided to make an investigation which was very similar to S. Dalena, but he was not lucky to obtain numerical data. And he said all the time that we were going to do something with the instrument, it seemed that those phenomena knew what we were going to do.
Speaker: He said an astronomer, an astronomer, sorry, a physicist who did calculations on the few data that he had, so he is a very mathematical mind, but he was sincerely told that there was a sort of synchronicity between our thought, between our intentions, and what was going on there. So that was looking intelligent, yes.
Speaker: I think with a lot of these paranormal phenomenon, whether you're looking at haunted houses or the UFO phenomenon, there's always this observer effect. So when you try measuring something, often what you tend to measure doesn't really show up, which is quite an interesting finding.
Speaker: in itself and I believe it's also something the, you know, colleagues of viewers at Skinwalker Ranch are also experiencing lots of equipment malfunctions and so on. So I think that's something, yeah, I really, also equipment malfunctions. Yeah, malfunctions, not just in Stalin but in Arizona because I did a mission, also Erling was there and then American geophysicist with us
Speaker: And I didn't see much in the sense I couldn't photograph much, but I did photograph all the phenomenon there. But the most spectacular phenomenon was when I had the telescope, a very good telescope connected with the spectrometer.
Speaker: And through the telescope, I saw a phenomenon that was jumping like an electric sink, boom, in a way that if there was a pile of the board that would have been crashed by a mini -G, 5000G or something like that.
Speaker: So I went, I had also a Nikon camera attached to the telescope to push the shutter, but nothing happened because the battery was completely gone. But the battery was new because I had put the battery one hour before. This happened other times. Okay. It was like, you know, you cannot photograph this thing. And yeah, it happened several times.
Speaker: So, we talked a bit about the, you know, kind of unnaturalness of all of this. So, you know, structured craft, potentially intelligent behaviour and so on. On the other side of the spectrum, if we're talking about natural phenomenon,
Speaker: What is the most likely candidate to account, at least, for some aspect of what you've been observing in Hestalen and at other locations? Yes. Well, I would think it might be a kind of a ball lightning.
Speaker: Okay? And by the way, a ball lightning is not necessarily a ball like, okay? It could be also flattened because if you have a very strongly rotating plasma, you have a flattened object which would look much like a flying saucer. Okay? And it could have also strong magnetic field.
Speaker: there, and if it has a strong magnetic field in this plasma, full plasma structure, then you might have emission of beams of laser -like light, which is absolutely an ejection of energy in excess. It's something that helps the hydrostatic equilibrium be maintained.
Speaker: Otherwise, it would explode, because if the energy increases much more than the system is able to digest, it will explode. This happens in the macroscaling in astrophysical eruptive phenomena, which I have studied.
Speaker: And it could happen in the smaller scale, because I believe that from the physics point of view, the universe is self -similar, okay? So people in the past, for instance, in Colares, in Brazil, almost 40 years ago, there were phenomena that were also dangerous because people were even killed or wounded by these beams of light.
Speaker: could in reality be a kind of ball lightning of which we don't know.
Speaker: the physics, that I was strongly rotating with a very big, strong magnetic field, which was ejecting a beam of energy from the north and the south pole of this thing. Because a magnetic field, it's like the earth's magnetic field, is closed to the equator and open to the pole. So there is a way to eject particles from the poles, OK?
Speaker: So imagine something that is like that, that is moving randomly in the air and shooting these beams of light, which could be explained only by a natural phenomenon. I spoke about this in a book by Jorko National, a computer scientist and mountaineer, whose name is Henning Kursten,
Speaker: who did a very interesting book, which is called
Speaker: a Diatolov Pass, not a cold case. And he investigated the possibility that what happened in Russia in the Diatolov Pass in 1959, if I well remember, was not a snowfall, they were killed by the snowfall, but they were killed by a bow lighting kind phenomenon. He collected this witness,
Speaker: He interviewed me too, and I exposed him in my theory on how this kind of phenomenon could be natural. So I consider also this possibility, because by the way, this is extremely important for physics. We don't know yet if it is a plasma.
Speaker: Why these plasmas, like Erling has already said, are lasting so long time, sometimes up to two hours, while they're turning on and off, it shouldn't. Because if you have a plasma that is triggered by piezoelectricity from the ground, for instance,
Speaker: It would ionize the atmosphere, which is logical, but this would last a fraction of a second because hot plasma tends to expand with the so -called adiabatic cooling. Instead, it remains confined there, so we need to know what is the confined mechanism.
Speaker: I thought about a scenario like mini black holes that could be a component of the cosmic rays, enter our atmosphere, suck air around
Speaker: make an accretion disk or ball around itself and the plasma and the more the collapse happens and the more the magnetic lines that are naturally frozen inside atoms are amplified. So you have a central gravitational, a mini gravitational body plus an amplified magnetic field which works like a cage of confinement.
Speaker: That would keep the plasma in a long -lasting fashion. So I've been thinking also about this theory, the natural phenomenon theory. And at the same time, I'm following also the other possibility.
Speaker: And not by chance I've been working in a city project. I published several peer -reviewed articles with my colleagues and by myself also. So that's another parallel possibility.
Speaker: So what's next up for Project Hestalen? Is research still going on? What's planned? Yes. If you go to see people who are interested, there is now a new website that has been cured by Fred Pallisen, who is the general manager of Project Hestalen, now under the super supervision of Erwin Strand.
Speaker: And if you go into the project and go to the part of science, there is a document that I specifically prepared for them because I am a scientific consultant on the project with Stalin. And I will go to Stalin next summer in September.
Speaker: There is a document that I prepared in which I depicted a project plan in three phases. The first phase is to use electromagnetic instruments together with an all -sky camera and a pan -zoom tilt camera. First phase.
Speaker: Are we able to do that? Because we want to replace the old instruments with the new instruments, which is already happening, thanks to Magnus Holm, who is a physicist, who is responsible for the technicalities there.
Speaker: So first phase is that second phase we add to the system another pan zone tilt system where you have a medium resolution spectrograph which I already tested and a high speed camera. Medium resolution spectra according to my calculations which I published on my limina paper
Speaker: is potentially able to see the so -called Zeeman effect due to magnetic field. So if you measure the magnetic field strength, you obtain a very important information, in particular if it's caused by a propulsion mechanism. So if we correlate this magnetic intensity
Speaker: with color, intense light intensity, electromagnetic emission, then we see in a dynamical fashion we could deduce something about the propulsion mechanism and compare with theoretical articles that have been already published in the past by an emeritus professor of physics, August Messon of the Louvain University, for instance, and many others.
Speaker: Second phase, third phase, when we are seen, certain that we are able to do that, that we are able to obtain image, then we are also able to obtain high speed image. And then we add the infrared equipment and also a drone that would be equipped with FLIR infrared and also optical and would fly just
Speaker: attempt to be flown over the phenomenon because the phenomenon very often lies just on the ground. It has been seen many times on the three tops level. I took several photos about that.
Speaker: In particular, the high -speed camera is important because you can obtain something like up to 1 million frames per second but we would use 5000 frames per second for practical reasons. And if you use this camera in a wide -angle mode,
Speaker: then you can detect very fast movements of the object in the sky. And a shear thing, if we are able to detect distance through triangulation, we could obtain the speed of the phenomenon and tell, is it true the phenomenon is moving at the speed of 10 kilometers per second or is it not true?
Speaker: Instead, if we use this camera in zoom mode, then we could discover that there are very fast variations in the light and in the color, which could be correlated with magnetic pulsation, because in Stalin, magnetic pulsation has been detected by Elling's ground in 1984.
Speaker: intermittent radar signature, so we try to correlate in time all together all the possible parameters in order to build a physics model, whatever it is.
Speaker: Perfect. Because there are probably a lot of different correlations with the battery of tech you're throwing against the phenomenon. In your mind, what are the most important correlations to look out for, also based on previous research that was done? Yes. The most important correlation is, for instance, to see if the magnetic field strength is becoming bigger
Speaker: when the color is becoming bluer, for instance, or when the luminosity is becoming the highest. So does the magnetic field increase when the luminosity is the biggest? Is there a correlation between the magnetic field and the speed of the phenomena?
Speaker: So, you know, you put all the dots together and then you say these are the data. These are very rigorous, very precise. What can we do? What kind of model we can put? Because if you put everything on a chart,
Speaker: Well, it can be described by an equation. So we derive the equation directly from the data with a very specific, like an exponential for instance, or with a very specific coefficient that are derived directly from the data. Then we compare with a physics model and we see what comes out.
Speaker: It could be natural, it could be not natural. And in both cases, it would be a physics discovery. In the sense, for instance, that if it's propulsion mechanism, if it's an effect of a propulsion mechanism of strong electric intensity that is passing through a superconductive material, metamaterial, creating a big magnetic field,
Speaker: Then if we have this hypothesis, we could do something like back -engineering while the object is flying and not while the object is inside the land. It might be much more difficult.
Speaker: to have an object inside an anger you dismantle you break it and try to understand how it works it would be much more difficult than if you're looking it while it is working while it is flying so this is an idea that i'm sure it's the correct one
Speaker: But clearly we need a lot of money funding because this is not a curiosity. This should be in the so -called big science like the CERN, nuclear physics, and astrophysical observation at easel, for instance, or easel.
Speaker: So, I mean, what kind of ballpark figure are we talking about with all the tech equipment? Is there, I don't know, six figures, seven figures of funding that is needed to obtain all this tech or what would you be looking at? Well, I would look at, you mean what kind of instruments you mean?
Speaker: Yeah, no kind of money in dollars or euros. The order of magnitude. Well, I would say, looking at what is being done, also by Pringledo Project, I wouldn't exaggerate if we had a minimum of 10 million euros. Minimum.
Speaker: make a well done work because you cannot think that you make a research work without paying the researchers. It would be ideal to have PhD students that are very fast mathematically and paying them. You pay, you motivate people for doing that work.
Speaker: Absolutely. You pay them plus you pay the money that is necessary to get good data. Otherwise, it's a complex but very important, so important for physics.
Speaker: And is there anything on the agenda for writing grant proposals to European Research Councils and so on, or are you more looking into the private investor side of it? Both. I would like to prepare a proposal for the ERC, European Research Council, and asking
Speaker: But there are some bureaucratic things that must be solved before submitting this. At the same time, private donors, millionaires who are very motivated in giving their money for this research, well, they wouldn't be disappointed at all. Because the point is that it's not that we would like to do that. We already have a know -how about
Speaker: that and we already know which procedure we would follow to make next investigations.
Speaker: Well, Massimo, you've been very generous with your time and I think it's time to wrap this up, however, by way of conclusion, just one final question. So we've talked about Hairstalen, there's stuff going on in Northern Italy and elsewhere on this planet. So what is it about these so -called UFO hotspots? Why do they actually exist? What's your take on that?
Speaker: That's very difficult to know. If it were a natural phenomenon, it would be relatively easy to say because if you have geological zones where you have, for instance, many quartz on the ground, and if these zones are seismic,
Speaker: When there are earthquakes, there is tectonic stress and the quartz liberates the piezoelectric effect and can produce the phenomenon. It's not the only effect, it's only one of them. There could be something like natural batteries that are triggering the phenomenon in particular geological areas. So you could explain that. But if you ask me why possible
Speaker: spaceships are visiting specific areas of the planet, that I don't know. It might depend on minerals, it might depend on energy sources, and paradoxically S. dal and similar other places are energy sources.
Speaker: Couldn't be that. I wouldn't be able to answer to that because I would not sufficient element to elaborate. So I don't know.
Speaker: No, but yeah, I think it's one of those great mysteries, but thanks anyways for your speculation on this. Massimo, it's been a real pleasure talking to you. I think it really complements the picture that Erling Strand painted earlier in the show last year. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing what's going to come out of the new age of research at Hestalen. So thanks a lot, Massimo. Thanks a lot, Sebastian, for having me.
